Why Didn't The Military Like Lever Actions?

Original Video: • Lever Guns in the Mili...
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[@michaelsteward2116]

Aahh .the sweetest sounds of a lever action...and the even sweeter sound's of the DING.... greetings from Melbourne Victoria Australia, Sunday, June 2nd, time now 09:07p.m. Have a great Sunday ☺️...

[@ChristinaMck70]

Mate, the Martini Henry was magnificent. This topic is fascinating, great point abt prone position firing. Western subs, Melbourne, June 2 11:39pm Cheers

[@maninaboysbody]

What did you being Aussie think of the movie "Wolf Creek"? Mick Taylor is one of my favorite movie monsters especially his laugh! I'm from North America and love Aussie slang! 😊have a good one "mate"

[@andrew_brent]

Never apologize for rambling, we are smarter and wiser after watching your shoot a round video's. Thanks for sharing 👍

[@kbjerke]

Yep, lever guns aren't for everyone. But for those of us with skill, taste and appreciation, they're the *GOAT!!!* Thanks, Hickok45!!

[@paulkick7870]

Always good to listen to such a wonderful teacher!

[@arch3088]

They were not robust enough for combat. As usual Hickock nails it.

[@opencarry3860]

The 1873 Winchester, still viable, still lethal.

[@robertredden4429]

One problem is that from a prone position the lever action is harder to operate than a single shot or bolt action

[@silverjohn6037]

I'd say the prone argument had been exaggerated. Modern assault rifles have magazines that stick out a lot further than a lever does. The bigger issue is the throw (how far the lever or bolt moves while cycling rounds) for larger military cartridge means you need a more complicated mechanism in a lever than a bolt.

[@ikustoo]

Love some firearm fun facts. Thanks hickok45

[@GD-tn3ez]

The government had to be responsible with their money back then because they didn’t tax the hell out of the citizens. Before an income tax was established, the majority of funds given to the federal government derived from tariffs on domestic and international goods.

[@nothanks3236]

Yeah but we didn't have a welfare state back then.

[@loquat44-40]

The major problem is extraction and general functioning under conditions of dirt/grime in the action. Also too complicated for many soldiers to maintain. But still the Russian imperial army did order close to 300,000 model '95s. It fed from a box magazine and used standard 7.62x54 russian service ammo. A '92 or '94 winchester is not such a fragile gun.

[@BlueandButternut]

Speaking on the Civil War specifically one of the more absurd reasons given was a fear of soldiers using too much ammunition. The Union Army did eventually adopt the Spencer and the Henry in pretty large amounts mainly for the cavalry.

[@odb_roc_hound4186]

Not absurd, manufacturing was primitive and expensive by today’s standards, cased ammunition was new tech. Successful armies rely on logistics, if you cannot make and supply enough ammo your units will fail when they run out. So emphasizing marksmanship over volume suppression makes a lot of sense at the time. Once manufacturing matures we get WW1 & WW2 where manufacturing and logistics can supply more than enough volume to allow protracted battles with large volume of fire.

[@VikingWelder]

Long live Hickok45

[@niekon2600]

thanks for the lesson!

[@nothanks3236]

Before finishing the video I'll hazard a guess: complicated maintenance? I've never stripped a lever-action before but I imagine it's a complicated process with lots of room for parts to go wrong with heavy use in the field. Perhaps they're not hardy enough for 100km rucks every other day? Edit: OK so not really that at all, but those were among a number of better reasons like the fact they're basically pistol-caliber carbines...

[@vladimirvodkin3045]

Winchester 1895 was adopted in the Russian Army. though. And sometimes can be met somewhere in hands of our Siberian hunters.

[@mufinsp0]

Because it was avaliable not because it was the best option

[@jakejudson8578]

Russia never had a good gun ak what?

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

After they got kicked by Turkey with 1873 Winchesters.

[@Thunder6]

😊​@MK-xk7zd

[@mikereimus8879]

Love the lever guns light and fun

[@howarddeheer8295]

As always some good information and interesting information

[@mrtzampos]

Wish I could own a lever here in Greece. Best regards Hickock team

[@GardenGuy1942]

South America is rampant with cartels, you should be able to own a lever action

[@lynnkramer1211]

People in Hell wish they had ice water.

[@TheAtomicCross]

When trying to decide between a 45-70 and a bolt action, wound up choosing an Enfield No 5 for a number of reasons. Higher capacity, longer range, faster loading, faster unloading, price of ammo, ease of maintenance, and the option of a bayonet. The ammo is also lighter and it is easier to carry more in a smaller space.

[@chrisl7511]

Love a lever gun, another factor is clearing a jam or malfunction, not easy to get to without tools

[@harryboyes2812]

Yeah, I suspected it might have been on grounds of reliability. But thanks for pointing out some other factors as well, Hickok45.

Ty

[@Saintlawrence100]

That was interesting….thanks…I always wondered why too…🤓🤙🏻

[@MichiganQuadTrailsTales]

Interesting ! I Always Wondered Why, Now I know! Thanks for Teaching Me Something.

[@RobnPhx1]

The reasoning never occurred to me! Now it all makes sense.

[@michaelblum4968]

The 1876 James Bown & Sons catalog has a "plain trigger" (not set) .44 caliber Winchester for $36.50 with swivels and sling. I have a repro of an 1889 Bannerman's catalog, which lists Springfield rifles in as-new condition, complete with bayonet, for $2.25, and the note, "Cost U.S. Government $16 each". There were still secondary units of the Army carrying "trapdoor" Springfields at the start of the Spanish-American war. Congress was famously penny-pinching in the decades after the Civil War.

[@paulletsos6938]

No one mentioned that the RCMP issued model 76 Winchesters and had lots of problems.

[@MarkMiller-i8q]

Another reason might be because it's awkward to work the lever from the prone position. Not a problem with a bolt action rifle.

[@geoffkeahey2651]

The 3040 used a 220gr roundnose bullet. The 03 used the same. Thats one of the main reasons the 06 came about. Someone finally woke up at Army ordinance and looked at the German spitzer bullets. They had us outclassed. One of the things I noticed from my military time was that the military had what I considered a big problem with 'Tradition'. Up until the 06, the military used big heavy bullets. The Army motto should have been, "We've always done it this way".

[@JimKittell6486]

Always left out is the Winchester 1895 lever-action with 5 round fixed magazine. The Russians bought about 300,000 of them in 1917 - 18 (Russian Revolution), using the same bottle-neck ammo as their Mosin-Nagant bolt action rifle. They even used the same stripper clip!. Shooting prone?. If you can't lift the rifle 3" to work the action, you have a huge problem. And do you actually rest the trigger guard on the dirt?. Or the fore-end?

[@roblowe9283]

Keep up the good work

[@randyrobinson8751]

At the end of the civil war this country was broke. There was a ton of 1861 Springfield muskets left. So they did the Allen conversion & presto trap door Springfield was born

[@Chris_the_Dingo]

I seriously question the issue of firing from the prone position. That may have been part of the equation, but for typical infantry tactics of that era, the prone position was not a huge factor.

[@lynnkramer1211]

Teddy Roosevelt loved the Winchester 1895 for his military service with the Rough Riders and also with his Safaris and hunting expeditions. He had many shotguns as well as rifles and shotgun suppressors during that era as well. The Russian Army got many many 1895s to fight the NAZIs as well. They US Cavalry also had many lever action rifles in their arsenals.

[@michaelsanchez9594]

Those explanations make sense into why the militaries didn't adopt it. But when we play out how these battles actually were fought. From ww1 and world w2 I think the lever actions would've been superior in terms tactics and how this stuff actually played out in real life.

[@russelsellick316]

Interesting. The BSAP in the 1890s in what become Rhodesia issued a 1000 Winchester 44-40s to the Matabele tribal police...

[@ronfry3324]

I have issues with saying the lever gun was fragile or that many in the military would have had a hard time maintaining them. The Indians used captured lever guns extremely effectively. Many had been repaired by them and definately banged around alot. Just as the mitary didn't adopt the S&W Schofield over the Colt Army was ammo. The S&W required 44 and the military had tons of 45 long Colt already. The Henery and Spencer had the same problem. As well as cost. Alot of Henery's and Spencers were actually purchased by Commanders who could afford to arm their troops.

[@BugsBunny-zf7kn]

Very interesting…thanks

[@danielfilippini5606]

The Russian military used winchester 1895s in 7.62x54r. They had a loading bridge on top to use stripper clips

[@Immopimmo]

Our boys are gonna waste too much ammo with them newfangled lever actions, better give 'em some single shot rifles.

[@rvail136]

Because very conservative generals didn't want the troops to "waste"" ammunition. There a couple of union cavalry regiments were equipped with Henry's. Wilson's 1864 cavalry raids had a couple of regiments and literally blew away confederate units in battle.

[@mkshffr4936]

And the Russians did use the 1895 to a certain degree.

[@tomhenry897]

Turks used them against the Russians defeating them

[@donlarocque5157]

Another Browning design wasn't it? Googling it!

[@mkshffr4936]

@@donlarocque5157 I believe so.

[@FrankCouch1847]

They only lasted about 100 years. Savage model 99.

[@grassroot1100]

And being prone in a dirt ditch would surely cause that elevator block to get dirt in it too. besides the difficulty of working the lever. Lots of reasons here.

[@donb7113]

Ask Custer why the Indians had them but not his troops.

[@iffykidmn8170]

guessing they were not worried about wasting ammo.

[@chuckaddison5134]

A long time ago, I remember that one of the levergun companies brought out a rifle that loaded the cartridges in a spiral pattern supposedly allowing for pointed bullets. I noticed that it didn't last very long on the market.

[@AverageNoBody2468]

The Savage 99. It was more popular than you realize. Made in a wide variety of calibers. A wonderful rifle beloved by many hunters.

[@avalon449]

Not easy to use in the prone position. Not a problem with bolt actions.

[@coreydarr8464]

The Assault weapon of its day!

[@JeffEbe-te2xs]

Generals thought the soldiers would go through their ammo too fast

[@Ut005A]

Was there funding back then or was the soldier expected to have your own firearms. "a well regulated malitia"

[@kansaspatriot2051]

Working the lever from the prone position is just a training opportunity. It's still faster than a single shot. You left out the "politics" of the choice as well. Keep in mind that Springfield had LOTS of pull in Washington and had been supplying our military with firearms since the Revolutionary War. The lever action Henry and Winchester were carbines and they worked just fine in WWII with the M1 and a "pistol" bullet. I think there were lots of reason they didn't chose a lever gun.

[@steveashworth6707]

Lever action guns in my opinion are great all around!. They say thats how the west was won!, especially with a chance of the days of the Wild West returning!.

[@buffalobob870]

To add, though I don't remember the source, at the time the military valued marksmanship over rate of fire and didn't want to waste ammo; hence the adoption of the trapdoor springfield...which seems odd as coming out of the civil war it was obvious how effective some units were with repeating rifles. In addition, numerous civil war era rifles were converted to trap door as the military of old was much, much more frugal that todays military complex.

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

Wrong, it was volley fire. Massed lead in the general direction of the enemy. Marksmanship wasn't established by the military until the NRA started pushing it.

[@AlejandroBraga-hl1oo]

These rifles are the ones that Brazilians like most

[@DaneWigington2O25]

Gatlin

[@Memorixt]

As much as I know, not in huge quantities but some U.S. cavalry units adopted the Winchesters at the end of the XIX century...

[@bobdixon4998]

Most men are not natural marksmen and the military wanted a beefier receiver and greater accuracy. Bolt guns did that, but repeaters were better in battle fo rounds per minute. So they worked towards semi auto rifles and then the BAR. That was scary. Easily man portable 10 rounds rapid fire 30/06. It wasn't a serious machine gun but it scared Germans that had 8mm Mausers. Then stepping down to . 308 or 7.62 nato. and then 5.56 nato. Now they recognize the error of their ways and want real punch. Back to the drawing board. So now the 6.8 fury. Oh well the 6.8 western is way better ballistically but won't run in a M4 or AR platform.

[@JohnDoesItAll]

Didn't the Army adopt the 1895 in 30 US?

[@donlarocque5157]

45-70 was chosen because it could knock down a horse.

[@tomhenry897]

Simple answer Fired to fast Generals wanted aimed fire and felt if can fire fast soldiers wouldn’t aim This policy was used past WW2 even as other nations issued magazine feed weapons

[@coreydarr8464]

The turks Use lever guns against the Russians! As I said before The assault rifle of it's day!

[@GeorgeHiggs-ic8lb]

If the magazine got dented that would put it out of action as a repeater 4:45

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

Magazine? Go back to school.

[@072929151]

@@ronaldjohnson1474No, he’s right. It’s an internal magazine.

[@SidChilders]

THEY COST MORE ANDTHEY WERE AFRAID THE TROOPS WOULD WASTE TOO. MUCH AMMO

[@4catsnow]

According to the forensic reports.. The Native Americans at the Little Big Horn favored the lever action...while the 7th Calvary opted to engage with single shot Springfield carbines...Oops....

[@Chris_the_Dingo]

The cavalry didn't opt for the Springfield. It was standard Army issue at the time.

[@4catsnow]

@@Chris_the_Dingo Yeah, the guy in charge of the program probably couldn't process load, fire, eject, load, fire , eject on a moving horse...rather than work a lever...

[@Z7d3nR4]

Interesting

[@danielmastin3606]

I think it was the government was not paying th price for them. Just my thought.

[@armageddonready4071]

Lever action is for riding a horse, bolt action is for SNIPING. Your welcome

[@yourboyelgin]

Early 🙏🏾🔥🔥

[@dougbruce4978]

id say custer wished he had more troops with them lol the indians had plenty of them

[@NukeCult666]

Thought the 30/30 got some action in the spanish/American war along side the 30-40 krag.

[@joshsizemore748]

No doubt some of the farmers were bodybuilding or powerlifting too. I would agree nobody puts up a bench like that without ever training for bench. Farmers do get strong but what movement could a farmer be doing to get that strong at pressing? Of all movements I could see them doing developing a strong bench press would be what I would expect the least

[@maxpinson5002]

It took the US military PTB a lot of years to get shed of the ancient ranks of troops like they used back in the bad ol days of shoulder to shoulder soldiers with spears or a big sword and a shield, and their tactics were nearly the same. About like the zulu movie with single shot rifles and ordered rank fire. Depending on bayonet charges and those kind of tactics. And stingy purchasing practices. IMO they were more concerned with having the troops dressed in a snazzy uniform for the parade grounds than readiness for battleground.

[@ricktaylor5744]

What is PTB and what is IMO ? I'm not familiar with that. Thank you in advance for sharing.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

The Military Tube Fed Guns - all had tubes coming in through the Butt Stock. With a Military Gun - you have to be able to fit a bayonet to it and you can't do that with an under barrel tube. The other thing is - yes - you have to be able to use the gun as a club as well. In an Assault - you have to make sure the enemy knows that you will go right into their trenches with them - and take them on physically. Here - the butt of a rifle is as important as the bayonet. With the Tube coming in through the Butt Stock - it is surrounded by and protected by all that wood - not just sitting out there in the open to be easily damaged. Now - the Russians - because they were desperate for any fire arms they could get - actually did use a lot of lever action weapons bought from the US. .

[@garybray3614]

Not good to shoot a lever from prone....PERIOD Infantry spend more time in prone than any other position if they don't want to get hit. HIT THE DIRT! I have been rocketed, mortared and shot at. There is not a hole deep enough. If you lay the lever on its side to work the action keeping low, you are scraping the dirt. Working the lever cowboy style puts your head up to get blown off. Welcome to the real world.

[@NHRebelsthoughts]

.

[@mrtzampos]

First?

[@kennethcurtis1856]

I'm impressed.

[@ConradSzymczak]

I don't like 'em either