why do fake random crits happen? random crit sound and hit effects, but normal damage?

[@shounic]

---- nov 28th ~~ the random crits series ~~ 1. how it works, very technically: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKupmmOfe9R_pbc 2. fake crits: kzbin.info/www/bejne/manZgIKorq6fsMU 3. crit cheats: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKOYqINrrth1jtk ---- nov 22nd hello, i hope it makes sense why i made that last video just describing the random crits system. (you should also go watch it if you want an in-depth elaboration on the random crit mechanics! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eKupmmOfe9R_pbc ) this fake crits topic was what i was trying to make a video about, but in the process of making it, it spiraled into like 20 different things and it made way more sense to just split them into multiple videos than try and compromise and leave stuff out. in that sense, the last video about random crits is technically just a really fancy footnote to this video. bonus explanation: "why doesn't the game just ask if you've received a message they sent in the past rather than just pretending it's fine?" tldr: networking in tf2 (and basically every multiplayer game) happens wayyyyy wayy too fast for this work. it takes too much time to ask and get a response. by the time the ask and respond loop finishes, the information you would've gotten out of it is irrelevant / too outdated, so you're better off just working with what you have and moving on. (for an even more in-depth answer, look up TCP vs UDP :) ) thanks for watching :)

[@cielros]

ok

[@flatraul]

ok

[@xxsegaxx]

Can "record fix;stop" fix this problem?I mean,I've seen that command work to fix invisible players and mismatched robot models that usually happens when I'm lagging a lot so can this fix it,like running the command after every huge data drop?

[@1WHISKY]

Does this mean we will get 18 more videos like these?

[@FlaminSarge]

There was a commit made to Sourcemod recently by nosoop to patch one of the common causes of fake crits coming from SM.

[@eva2602]

"This is... a bucket." "Dear God" "There's more!" crit death sfx

[@figo3554]

Lol

[@nickylaraiso9328]

"No...."

[@shellac_box]

"There is a system called the crit bucket." "Dear God..." "It acts as a wallet." "No..."

[@AliensComeback]

I truly love this meme.

[@rexpyro1689]

Shounic actually being the last tf2 developer trying to understand the code and making videos so he remember what to fix

[@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww]

What is there to fix, though ?

[@theobserver4214]

@@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww The strange hitboxes for one

[@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww]

@@theobserver4214 Hmm, that would come with a performance hit and could complicate the calculation, makeing it more glitchy.

[@DankDimensionMemes]

@@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww I want to see old code updated to be more optimized, not necessary speed, but just readability,if you look at the old 2017 leak it is rather difficult to find some things, and if the tf2 team managed to sort the code, they could easily make new changes without the possibility of reincarnating spagetti monsters.

[@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww]

@@DankDimensionMemes Probably not happening. Valve is the "creative folk" company and allows all developers to work on any internal project they want. Yea, the good thing on this method, we get masterpieces like TF2, HL2, Portal 2, etc.. Bad thing, i don´t think anybody wants to clean that up, as long as it isn´t necesssary to keep the game running.

[@Gromek999]

This shit just proves how much fuckery goes into making an online game

[@StarPhargus]

no wonder there's no major update...

[@s0nnyburnett]

and its why I miss the days of games before the internet ruined them.

[@AlexanderRM1000]

I've heard a few times that Melty Blood is an extremely popular fighting game because it has the best net code despite the fairly obscure source material; given responsiveness is probably even more important in fighting games this really helps me understand how most other fighting games can have such bad netcode that it's noticeable.

[@Pacemaker_fgc]

@@AlexanderRM1000 The older version of Melty Blood has some of the best netcode because of a community patch. The new version is good because the parent company was able to throw a lot of money at it and the developers (thank you kamone) were open to new ideas, but imo it’s not as good as the old game’s community patch.

[@AlexanderRM1000]

@@Pacemaker_fgc Ah good to know. So it already had a strong community before then (presumably from type/moon fans + fighting game fans who happened to check it out) or maybe got lucky with some extremely talented community modders happening to be into it.

[@Rengor1997]

Honestly as meme as it is to laugh about the TF2 code (and some parts are really laugh-worthy), I find it immensly interesting to see the thought process behind coding the game with all it's little challenges, technicalities and workarounds.

[@watema3381]

TF2's code is the quintessential example of programming: _Barely_ works, until it doesn't.

[@Jayy0360]

The TF2 code can easily be related to one of them images that seem normal but nothing makes sense the more you look.

[@MartinPurathur]

@@maxpare "You don't need to be a chef to say that some food you bought sucks"

[@schniemand]

​@@maxpare How many of the players know how to make a game has nothing to do with the devs' job of making the game work. TF2 mostly works but it definitely has years of code spaghetti buildup because even at launch it had been in defelopment for 9 years and had gone through very different stages. The meme of making fun of the way the game is built is fully justified in my opinion. It really is messy and says a lot about software development and Valve.

[@Jayy0360]

@@MartinPurathur I don't think I've ever seen a reply to some comment be so simple yet effective. Legendary reply.

[@askryuzaki3693]

Question (unrelated to video): since pyro can reflect rescue ranger bolts to friendly buildings to heal them, does it use the pyros internal 100 metal? does that mean that the ammo packs the player drops won't equate to half a clip / 100 metal? sorry if this was already answered, I probably didn't see it

[@cinex20]

He can't do that, the bolts break when hitting a friendly bulding.

[@matheusrios4223]

if reflected ranger bolts could actually heal friendly buildings, that would be awesome!

[@zizo5349]

ah, I see another (cultured) Great Blue fan.

[@kompatybilijny9348]

Good to see that my EXTREMELY important question gained a following :D

[@somerandomgamer8504]

@@zizo5349 The rarest kill icon, eh?

[@MilkshakePurchaser]

PC: “You did not read mine!” Valve server: “…Does it say you want the bucket?” Pc: “Yes” My 300ms ping: “See your crits in hell!”

[@adamradford8053]

Server: "no!" Computer: "yes!" Sniper: "can you just let me left click in peace?"

[@EvilMcSheep]

no, kick sniper

[@TussalBreak]

game: so you wants crits huh? player: YES!! game: I'm going to give you crits but I'm not going to give you crits player: huh

[@jaydentt]

i love the noise tho

[@Calvin_Coolage]

I can't remember ever seeing fake random crits. I didn't know this could even happen.

[@afruit6720]

It happened to me all the time when I had a really bad internet package and it was very annoying

[@Ultra289]

It happens if you RLY RLY have a bad internet Or when someone in your house is downloading something... Im using wifi ,and i only saw this problem once in the last 7 years ,nowadays and pretty much in the last 5/6 years having THAT bad internet is rly uncommon

[@ioncavegrandma9256]

It happens to me very occasionally. Since it only happens with hitscan maybe i would see it more often because im a heavy main

[@sabani6470]

@@Ultra289 Really uncommon in America you mean... Most of the people in Middle East has shitty internet. Like me for instance. I have 4mbps internet speed and it's not even stable

[@Ultra289]

@@sabani6470 I played on Dubai servers in both tf2 and csgo mm and honestly I expected way more ppl having ping spikes or just high ping on their closest servers But yeah, on US highly doubt more than 0,25% of the playerbase there have those issues, I only played US servers in csgo but not tf2... On Europe where I mostly play ,almost never happens

[@a1batross_]

They solved this problem since Half-Life 1. The client weapon prediction and server weapons code have same shared random generator seed. However, back then it was only used for bullet spread. Thanks for video. It was interesting to hear how they made critical shots and prediction friends.

[@Thornskade]

Basically, all those little checks they added can break the system like this, but it's necessary to prevent crit hacks

[@itsRigatonii]

Doesn’t help that there’s all these different conditions that constantly change in determining whether you’ll get a crit or not. It’s cool from a game design perspective, but a nightmare for networking I’d imagine.

[@sznio]

Most Valve games no longer share the weapon spread seed with the client, since it allows for spread-canceling cheats.

[@a1batross_]

@@sznio hm, having predictable random on client side can indeed lead to cheats like this.

[@yeatnumber1Dmuncher]

*I like your funny words, magic man*

[@DoctorX149]

I've always been curious about this one. Was wondering if anyone else got this! I actually have really good internet connection, at least with download and upload speed, but ping can be pretty bad, especially with distant servers & valve games. Certainly disappointing when you think you got a crocket and it doesn't land the kills. Does anyone else ever get the reverse, where it looks like a normal shot, but then it deals critical damage? Those are always fun.

[@AlexyoTheFirst]

I get "normal shot" crits all the time, I never really thought about it too hard until now

[@snackermantm105]

Ah yes always the minigun does that. Everytime

[@chrisjuan9249]

Having a good download speed usually dont matters in most game. Online games only uses about 1-6 megabit/sec. The reason ping is bad is most likely because of physical distance that requires longer travel time. And signal can sometimes got lost during inter transmission, creating stutters

[@SU76M]

Megabits? TF2 uses about 10-15 kilobytes per second for net traffic.

[@pikasalt]

I always wondered why that was the case. Your videos are awesome man! I think tf2 is one of those rare games where almost every odd mechanic and bug can be documented like this.

[@Ultra289]

Every game can be documented like this with the code itself ,its just that nobody does that on other games for whatever reason

[@pulledpork9778]

Dang, the random crit chance being so dynamic is actually what causes the client to server desync! That’s pretty interesting, I wonder if you could go more in-depth on other desyncing code in the game.

[@giserson2]

Perhaps alt+tabbing also causes packets to be dropped, as that would explain why my computer with an otherwise very stable internet connection could experience this issue (although very rarely).

[@Kenlaboss.]

This happens to me in almost every match, I have somewhat good connection through wire, but now I understand why atleast! It is one of those small things that annoys me somewhat, because It gives the wrong information and makes me notice it everytime it happens. I don't remember this being a problem back in 2011? When I had literally crappy internet.

[@chrisjuan9249]

I think crit bucket is a new thing added ti game at later stage.

[@Ultra289]

Maybe you just didnt care or give it importance in 2011?? Which is normal considering most of players in 2011 playing tf2 were either kids or teens

[@karlbischof2807]

i also had a period, of a few months, about a year ago, where i got random crits but no effects only and not the other way around. This stuff is weird

[@Kenlaboss.]

@@Ultra289 I probably didn't understand the mechanic back then either, but I should've had in around 2014 though, I can only remember this happening from around 2017. But to be honest, memory is the biggest liar.

[@marcushalberstam5327]

Random fake crits are fair and balanced

[@MarioLuigi0404]

I really like the little visuals you use to explain stuff. They make these things really clear and easy to understand.

[@MrMalkraz]

Thank you so much for this video. Fake crits have been a persistent problem on Skial's servers for whatever reason for a couple years and while I understand general network functionality, I've never gotten a satisfying answer for why this happens until now.

[@PoppySis]

It's insane how much effort was put into such a terrible game mechanic.

[@Ultra289]

Well, some effort had to be done in order for random crits to be fair

[@ineedabetterpfp2485]

@@Ultra289 Not to mention how balanced they are too.

[@Ultra289]

@@ineedabetterpfp2485 well, yeah, they are fair and balanced

[@malariaa0293]

Random crits are fair and balanced

[@MoriShep]

early tf2 maps where very choke heavy and crits where meant to break the stale mate the state of the game today (- the bots) is a VERY different game where such burst damage tie breaker mechanics are no longer needed

[@notaguy0599]

you cant keep getting away with actually teaching me something useful

[@MadamLava094]

I appreciate the scribblenauts touch in the thumbnail immensely

[@bodoque_csm]

"there is a system called the crit bucket which acts as a wallet"

[@SylviaPoP]

This reminds me of the sponsor of today’s video- ridge wallet

[@toenailwarrior]

i will still never understand when i try to backstab someone, my knife just hits they're back either doing butterknife damage or no damage at all and on top of that the crit sound will play

[@vinnae]

Thank you for explaining it. I live in South America and often play in US servers so I bet there's a couple of lost packets here and there, even if my connection is still pretty stable. But I guess over relatively long distances, more chances of a packet being lost or its data being corrupted and thus being rejected once it arrives. It's very uncommon that I get these fake crits, but they have happened from time to time. Stuff like firing a rocket and hearing the distinct crit sound immediately from my computer, but a regular rocket coming out instead once the server has resolved the shot.

[@f1l603]

Honestly best channel only for the fact you use the dustforce soundtrack!

[@baconandx1858]

Now I know why I kept hearing my gun fire and see the muzzle flash when I die and my bullet seemingly disappears.

[@helispark]

My eyes darted towards the Scribblenauts emote and clicked instantly, please use more of them in your thumbnails

[@ShinigamiSamaH]

We dig through the spaghetti bucket, trying to find out what is at the bottom. Years later, there's still more spaghetti.

[@D0Samp]

5:10 Variants of that (mostly going into windowed mode and opening the system menu) are also used for example in GTA Online to effectively suspend the game, which timeouts your peer-to-peer connections to other players and leaves you alone in a public session.

[@dclc]

you can also float in the air in Minecraft

[@tf2349]

You’re such a good teacher my man. I have more tf2 code knowledge than in some school subjects

[@mendyshelios0451]

it doesnt have to just resolution change. it works with some hard console commands - mat_phong 0 for example

[@youtubeisawebsite7484]

I liked the visuals. Also Scribblenauts thumbnails are pog.

[@PajamaPantsStudios]

I have seen this a LOT in mvm. WAYYYY more than regular tf2. The visuals for crits and the regular hits are completely unrelated. I’ll get crits that look normal, and normals that look like crits

[@sleesherj5516]

3:10 "influences your cirt chance"

[@batofdestiny7801]

Holy hell, someone who played Scribblenauts? I remember that icon in the thumbnail.

[@Kylirr]

the presentation of your vids is so good

[@tfolz1351]

i love your videos because its easy to understand and it some how fun to watch.

[@jankoutecky4771]

Thank you for explaining fake random crit. I commented a question about this on the last video about this. Finally I understand that my internet provider is bad.

[@tartipouss]

"what the fuck" is my reaction to every single time I think TF2 can't get any weirder and I see a new shounic video proving me I was wrong

So that is why flesh sounds are heard when using melee weapons without actually counting the hit.

[@sirpikapika1129]

I like how your little doodle to represent the player's computer looks kinda like a cheese grater

[@emmetth3726]

Huh these Fake crits just made me think my aim was even shittier than I was. I was concerned when I got a crit and didnt kill I just blanked lmfao.

[@sgas]

5:24 thanks for the summary

[@Whurr1]

fake crits happen more often in mann versus machine because of romevision, even if you don't opt into romevision the server will still spawn the romevision cosmetics, but they'll be invisible, and if you spawn say 16+ bots, with most of them having 2 romevision cosmetics, you're gonna lose some data packets somewhere in the mission and desync from the server because your computer did not receive the update from the server regarding the random crit generator's new settings. so if you didn't like romevision before for causing lag spikes when a big wave of bots spawned now you'll dislike it even more now. (also it overrides any cosmetic a bot is wearing if you do opt into romevision, which means a giant deflector heavy will look exactly the same as a standard giant heavy, just with romevision armor instead of the u-clank-a)

[@mistermcphologer3832]

player: did i fire a crit? game: Well yes, but actually no.

[@BeaglzRok1]

As someone whose username was based on having such terrible laptop wifi that I was able to get backstabbed twice in the same life as a Bonk!-less Scout, I assure you that between all of the unusual effects murdering 2007 system specs and matchmaking that will sooner put me in a Frankfurt server than a Virginia one, this happens far more often than this explanation would suggest. Case in point, melee weapons are hitscan as well, but with a "delayed" shot (except Spy knives). However, they crit far more often, so there will be tons of swing animations that either don't do the proper damage, or in my painful Medieval Mode experiences, simply go full 4:28 Engy and get all the hit sounds and effect sprites in the world, but no actual damage.

[@user-lh7mt7zo7l]

I felt physical and emotional pain when you said internet hitches shouldn't happen too often lol. With my internet on my laptop it's used to be a bit of a roller coaster. Completely fine internet followed by massive spikes where I can't move for a range of about 5 to 30 to seconds lol.

[@ricktophermenendez5983]

do you think the client side/server side desync is also why melee weapons will make the sound of hitting an enemy (not necessarily your hitsound) or a crit sound?

[@clark5184]

Great video as always, keep it up!

[@bossmorvax]

Great video ! On the topic of client server synchronization, can you look into failstabs ? I wonder if it's related

[@bernardonegri5416]

There is not much to talk about. Sometimes, you and the server disagree on where you are and where the enemy is looking.

[@gotchu8499]

That's why I wonder why I shoot Laser Beams as heavy but it deals normal damage when im on casual, and vice versa when i shoot normal bullets, they register as critical hits. This game is truly bizzare in its own way...

[@BananaHoovyJ.Rabbit]

This has never happened to me but if it does it will ANGER me.

[@kornelion6014]

Finally, someone who explains this..... I hate it when it happens.

[@tpd1864blake]

And then when you melee swing in the air you hear a crit sound almost every other swing

[@erixon2012]

I like how the computer icon is apple's cheese grater

[@teufortknight3913]

Cool im not the only one that noticed. I was playing heavy on 2fort with the tomislov. It was red for crits but normal bullets and when I shot again shortly after my bullets turned into crits but were normal bullets.

[@randomcommenter10_]

Is this also the same reason why heavy's fists and some other melee weapons fake crit all the time as in you normal punch but then half a second later turns into a crit animation. It happens so often even on low ping servers.

[@marcusjakobsson4321]

No random crits: regular cartwheel Random crits: olympian gymnastics

[@XxguaxinimxX.]

Awesome video as always! Could you check if there's something interesting about how long did a sandwich last when throwed?

[@K.Rhyan_]

I actually do play in windowed mode and move it around a lot as I open things in the background (Discord, Spotify, Steam chats) and fake crits happen to me all the time. I thought my game was just broken somehow. Now if only I could figure out why my player models have pink eyes.

[@gogogogo605]

They hitting that good kush

[@Nidoskull]

You might be missing a texture file!

[@PikaPilot]

This bug is my biggest pet peeve about random crits.

[@StickMaster500]

Gabe Newell is basically giving you the luck of random crits but then changes his mind at the last second

[@damsen978]

Happens the same using melee, where you do the crit attack animation and then nothing happens. Would be nice if you could explain why we hear the melee hit sound even tho our target hasn't received any damage.

[@Smeeeeeghead]

I am loving TF2 mythbusters! Good job!

[@bruteng836]

heavy's melee weapons are really weird when it comes to these crits. He does a half upper cut before going back to a normal jab sometimes

[@T1MAGEDDON]

hey don't you think i can't notice that scribblenauts speech bubble in the thumbnail

[@santiagozapata9056]

I love the visuals in your videos, is it any tool you use to create them?

[@MrLisreal]

Well, someone's a Scribblenauts fan :)

[@sweetlitlbumblb]

i haven't a clue what's going on here, but i'm very interested!

[@stealthbeastgaming]

**sticks this onto the already gigantic pile of reasons random crits shouldn't exist**

The amount of research put into making this is mind boggling. You either have Asperger's or really like TF2

[@nithssh]

So packet loss and the everlasting problem with communication/networking, reaching consensus, got it.

[@maximyllion]

this reminds me of that one time i killbinded and heard a crit sound for some reason

[@catarinamagalhaes4775]

"Shouldn't happen too often" You underestimate the packet loss abilities of my Brazilian Wi-Fi

[@bobbybobbington3915]

As heavy this happens all the time... such a strange conundrum

[@SmokingSkull]

love these vids

[@Robert_SK10R]

Oh that did happen to me, kind of weird but i didn't give it any attention tho

[@CongaYT]

Hey Shounic, does the unused Endless mode of MvM still exist in the current version of TF2? I remember playing around with it on some buddies years ago and it was wildly unbalanced but had some fun and unique interactions with the waves

[@G.reviewz]

So all of this happening withing the most split of split fucking seconds….XD stuff like this is why i love this channel just learning so much about how games and computers work as well as how servers work too it boggles my mind that all this info is just so quickly processed.

[@Paddyhammer444]

The bullet tracers appearing before the shot is fired actually reassures me im not going insane. The number of times i've airblasted or fired my shotgun and watched the rocket just sail right into me or the bullets fly out and impact the character model dealing no damage is disgusting. The thing is I get single digit ping on uncletopia servers, am i reacting less than a tenth of a second too slow or are ping spikes just very common in tf2?

[@sansplays123]

Sometimes a shot makes the shot but doesn't make a hit sound

[@kerbonaut2059]

That explains all the crit particle effects that randomly appear on my flamethrower but don't end up dealing random crits...also don't play in windowed haha

[@theovermind9745]

I thought it was a messed up config thing I was going to reinstall the game. I hate it when fake crits happen and they got me killed a bunch of times trying to "do more damage while it's still on"

[@ymmatinthehat]

love this dude teaching us how tf2 works

[@_eya]

i love this channel

[@DerpyEinstein]

I watched this video muted to see if it made any sense visually and I was like, “Damn they’re really wailing hard on that heavy npc with their pistol.” And that’s all I took away from this video.

[@horus2955]

"internet hedges shouldnt happen too often" cries in shit int---ernet

[@Smidgemax]

This is also why you see players as the wrong team/class/holding incorrect weapons

[@seventhcommandment]

man's playing on a cheese grater

[@red-hot]

This requires some serious critical thinking

[@raumerherr1057]

apple cheese grater PC, nice detail

[@squibbly_mcgrink7689]

Hi Shounic. Thanks for the great content! =) I have a question. I often host a "listen" server from my PC (sv_lan 0) to play with several friends over the internet. When healing or overhealing a player or being healed by a medic my (host) game gets choppy frametimes with the framrate counter holding (capped at 141fps with RTSS). Fully vanilla TF2. Sometimes the game can crash seemingly from healing. This will still happen if I am by myself and getting heals from Halloween spells. My PC is a 5600x and 3080. Any idea as to what is going on? Thanks again for your in-depth analysis.

[@shounic]

Haven't heard of this and I have no clue why this might happen. I'll look out for any potential leads. :)

[@thatstuffguy]

Back in highschool when I played on my laptop that was good enough just for homework, I would get them all the time. But in more recent years, after having a fairly decent PC, I thought I was just having teenage angst that "mUh CrIT dIdNt WoRk" but turns out I was right to some degree lol

[@slibbanib309]

This has never happened to me even once in 2400 hours

[@Thornskade]

I suspect this can happen without internet hitches somehow as I see it sometimes with a very good connection. Maybe in cases where you fire at an enemy but either you or they were already dead?

[@Kirby-vd7hw]

i see scribblenauts in the thumbnail...

[@Kyle_Reese]

No wonder when i fired a crit rocket, it wasnt even crit boostsd