Why do we really teach climbers to belay from the rope loop?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Want to buy me a coffee or the boy a dog treat?! www.buymeacoffee.com/jbmountain

[@pauljohnson4833]

If I'm standing, then I find off the tie in loop affords more freedom of movement and reach under load as well as just comfort. Sitting with low anchors (typical Peak District) I usually find a loaded plate more accessible on the belay loop, the tie in being wrapped across my hip. Reasoned explanations as usual JB, keep up the good work.

[@kylemaywood1666]

Really enjoying your videos Jez, thanks much for doing them and keep them coming! You’ll have the whole MIA/MCI syllabus up by the end of lockdown! Somewhat controversially I often balance your points of why to choose the rope loop with what I think are benefits of using the belay loop. These are: 1. no chance of untying the belay loop and watching your belay pop off down the route especially once topped out. 2. if you have multiple krabs on a small rope loop it can sometimes get quite crowded particularly with relative novices on multi-pitch when they have to swap the plate etc. 3. By putting it on the belay loop it keeps krabs, knot and all things stance on one side of your harness, leaving belay device and all things belaying on the other side which looks really clean and very easy to see/inspect. 4. If you are on a small ledge/semi-hanging, by having it on the belay loop it naturally sits lower down your body/the system/direction of route than it does on the rope loop which I find means pulling on the dead rope locks off the belay in an easier position than when it’s on rope loop (sometimes). Equally I also hear the 8 figure of eight three way load argument in support of belay loop, but similar to what you have said is one of those where I’ve never seen it be any issue and would never stop me from using the rope loop. When people say the ‘its much easier in rescues point’ I often find that is mooted by people who do not know how to rescue/ have never done it and have just been told it by someone who told them etc. Fyi when personal climbing I swap and change. Great to hear these discussions though, especially as there are so many things done in climbing and mountaineering just ‘because’. As long as theirs solid justification behind actions then i dont think many will go far wrong and you are really helping the community in doing these vids. Thanks again

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you're enjoying them! I've got an ever growing list of videos to do... If you have a look on my FB page I put a video up yesterday of a fig 8 being ring loaded (limited test but the version I use broke at 26kn) As you say, it's just great to have these discussions and think about why we do what we do, especially in a teaching sense.

[@calumbmx1]

Eyyy fancy seeing Kyle Maywood in the comments. I'm just having a slow morning learning about the pros and cons of belaying from a rope loop 😂

[@georgehawksworth9446]

That escaping the system argument, I learned that it makes little difference from practicing with your previous videos! Thanks JB!

[@JBMountainSkills]

That's the best way to learn!

[@alshaver3742]

Thanks for the explanation and the alert to watch this video. You're making us safer, more efficient climbers - thanks!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you like it :)

[@daviddobedoe]

As an arborist I have a petzl harness with a ‘belay’ loop. In reality I avoid using it because other attachment points ( the bridge ) are replaceable. If I wear out the belay loop it’s new (expensive) harness time. I do wear out the bridge and replace quite often. I know it’s not the same situation but for me it’s a factor. Pity the belay loop is sewn in.

[@thombstones]

Hey thanks for this one, very nicely explained. I've been climbing 35+ years at a good level and am doing my RCI for a bit of career and self development. After years of DIY with other good climbers and irata training some thin gs are tricky to relearn, this the BFK and extending your abseil device are the tricky bits for me. Leaving the others aside for now I'd say I tie in pretty tight and my comfort may not be improved much but yes it does shift the load like you say! At last a good reason! What I really don't like is putting all that stress on the end of your rope. The bit that already has the most punishment which I feel the belay loop is designed to take. No matter. But.. I can hardly believe you've never had to use yourself as part of a belay to protect the anchor(s).. ? Where have you been!!!! Maybe it's because I climb on the crumbly coasts a lot but you really must get out more and experience this conundrum. Back in my youth a friend was only able to find a wild cabbage to assist him in protecting my assent. Yes I fell and he held me but I can assure you it was not a direct belay!!! Or I would not be writing now! 😂

[@nigelhurst2087]

1 drawback I found from belaying off rope loop is 'forgetting' belay device is on there and dropping it when untying. This is usually not too bad as you're pretty much always safe when you do this but it can bounce away and away down if you're unlikely. And I can see why you would choose to belay off the rope loop. I do try when I remember

[@JBMountainSkills]

Not done it myself... but never say never!!! I've certainly seen it done.

[@paulseabrook9338]

JB, I must say firstly that I do enjoy your videos, and in particular I enjoyed this one, the basic message being “yeah, no good reason, certainly not one based on safety!” Over my 45 years of trad climbing I’ve never understood the “instructor” obsession with using the rope loop, and like you I’ve analysed and dismissed all the escaping the system and energy absorption arguments. My old Willian’s harness had no belay loop so you used a carabiner on the crotch link and through the rope loop. Dropping a belay device is a possibility, but here’s a worse scenario, based on personal experience. You’re on a solid ledge and belay and have created a power point with a sling round a tree. You clip that into your rope loop with a locker. Your mate can’t follow so you lower them to their stance. You opt to rappel/abseil. You untie your rope(s) to thread the abseil point… oops you’re not belayed. Luckily it’s a ledge so you’re not dead. It’s a fact that tied rope loops are transient things and can be undone. It’s my opinion that climbers are better advised to belay themselves and their mates from a belay loop that cannot be undone by mistake under any circumstance. In general I subscribe to you’re approach to problem solving, you need to have a set of skills, tools and systems that you can employ flexibly to resolve multiple different problems whilst maintaining safety. Believing there’s only one “right”way is wrong, but I really struggle with the rope loop obsession. Keep up the good work! I always find something that makes me think.

[@mikerowland8004]

I didn't even know this was a thing until just now. Thanks Jez.

[@JBMountainSkills]

My pleasure!

[@brendanrodgers5044]

Great video. I've been enjoying all of your content. Keep them coming.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you’ve enjoyed them!

[@smurf9857]

Another great video. I’ve started to teach my youngest to belay me and after securing her to the floor in the climbing centre I set up her belay device off the rope loop. When I loaded the rope she saw how my load went into the floor and she was still able to move a fraction, wasn’t jerked hard etc. In this situation I think she will be less likely to let go of the rope if someone heavier does fall suddenly

[@JBMountainSkills]

Nice one, glad you liked it! Happy practicing!

[@largeformatlandscape]

It seems like what you're really doing is creating a direct belay with the rope and also using rope to make you safe. The most rope efficient way of doing this is like you demonstrate. Great video again!!

[@JBMountainSkills]

I like that way of looking at it!

[@johnliungman1333]

I really like your humble and down-to-earth style. Thank you! As for the technique itself: it is always much more comfortable and practical to belay directly off the anchor in guide mode. The only real reason not to do that is to protect your anchor (on snow or awful pro) and then you really WANT the weight to be on your harness. So there really is no scenario where belaying off the rope loop adds any value, as far as I can see. Furthermore, it adds risk. For people who tie in with a regular bowline, for example, the knot may fail when loaded this way. (A great reason not to tie in with a bowline without a backup knot, of course.)

[@earlykirky4721]

If you are bringing someone up, and you know you are going to lower them belaying this way can be easier than guide mode.

[@CCCarl123]

I will often belay my second in guide mode--for comfort, yes, but most especially if I think they might have to hang for any length of time. (I also use a DMM Pivot which is WAY easier to lower in guide mode if that becomes necessary.) Here is another reason why I might NOT belay my second in guide mode... the pitch is relatively easy for my follower and they will take the lead on the next pitch. In this situation I will often belay off my harness with a redirect (usually two good bolts or very good trad pro). That way, my second can start leading very quickly and I don't have to faff around with swapping my belay plate location. As always... the answer in climbing is: "It depends." Thanks for the great videos, JB, and your relaxed teaching style.

[@lloydberry8834]

Another top video thanks Jez! Love how you describe things in detail but suitable for simpletons like me 🤔😂 looking forward to tagging onto one of your trad courses next year 💪🏼 keep up the good work mate!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you liked it Lloyd 😊

[@robstone8782]

Hi Jez, good video as ever. I agree with others re dropping your belay plate (been there....). I also think that with two ropes (halves) and out of reach anchors it can become quite busy - especially if you are lapping the rope at a hanging belay. So i may choose to do it that way. I might also do a DIL belay - but thats way beyond beginner teaching. Also the knot tightening argument , I've seen figures of adding 1m to your rope length when calculating fall factors for a leader but that isn't the same sort of load as a 2nd slipping so i think it's garbage in this circumstance.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Cheers Rob! I never dropped the plate, but seen it done...! I expect I will one day!

[@Nick-B78]

Cool video and thanks for the full explanation as I was one of the people who asked this back on one of the earlier videos. Also, let us know when you launch that JB Dancing Skills channel 😉 🕺

[@JBMountainSkills]

No worries! I think you're safe from that video channel...!

[@dewihughes5447]

So many great videos.Any chance to catalogue them so a key word can get me to the relevant video quickly without scrolling?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Cheers! It may have to wait until winter, just so busy!

[@JustinReidUK]

Just discovered your channel the other day, love it. Some awesome content. One thing that’s always concerned me since I saw it used a number of years ago and wondered why instructors taught it, was belaying from the rope loop. Is there not a chance the knot will role when cross loaded? Potentially compromising it and also difficult to untie? For this reason I warn newbies away from it but I can see how it’ll make things more comfortable as well as easier access to attach crabs

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you like it! In a pull test rig, you could get the knot to roll, in real life you’d never get near the forces needed to cause it. (It’s called ring loading)

[@JustinReidUK]

@@JBMountainSkills thanks for the amazingly quick reply 🙌 Had a feeling it would require excessive loads. Though it seems strange in these days of excessive health and safety, I am coming around to the idea and won’t shy of teaching it to newbies as an option in the future. You never know, I may become a convert and break 34 years of habit 🤣 Keep up the good work, definitely going to 🔔 prioritise your videos in my feed 😊

[@cameronbryan2088]

I may be wrong but I read somewhere that the original harnesses didn't have a belay loop you had no choice but to belay off of your rope loop again no idea if it's true just remember reading it on some random website years ago :) would love to know if that's correct if anyone can be bothered to fact check :)

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah there were some harness's, and still are (BD Alpine Bod), that rely on the tie in loop!

[@Mitzbergatc]

I do believe the anchor suffers less from a fall if you don't belay from the harness, as you can be independent from the anchor, and therefore your own weight is not added to the fall. Yes I do appreciate you'd absorb some of that impact. It'd be a case of what's better. But simply for comfort, I'd not belay from the harness altogether

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah there's a few variables to take into account for sure.

[@dwgoutdoors831]

Ignorant American here, haven’t seen much of this technique but I like it. Where would your follower ideally clip to when they arrive at the ledge assuming it’s multipitch.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Hi Mike, that's when things become a bit more of a faff! Depending on the situation, the second might be able to clip to part of the belay, be tied off on the belay device, or they may have to use their rope to build their own belay on the same gear.

[@synunn]

Interesting stuff. I was also thinking that it may... probably only a really small amount... save some wear on your harness

[@JBMountainSkills]

It'll be tiny but I'm sure it will save a little!

[@viniciusmaltauro]

Thank you for this one! This is a topic that scratches a question that I carry for some time. Coming from a different part of the world, and as I perceive, from a different climbing school, I always find myself assuming that: 1- using the rope to build the belay and; 2- belaying "off the harness" (rather than using a direct belay) is the standard in UK climbing. Is it true or just a misperception? Also, I said UK, but I am not sure of the borders of this...Just England? The majority of Europe?... In the Americas it's way more common to see people teaching and using slings/cords to build the anchor and using a direct belay. Being "the UK way" an exemption reserved for particular circumstances. I wonder if this difference comes from a predominant terrain thing or just pure cultural aspect. How do you see that?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Pleasure! I think that's a fair perception! It's common to build the belay using the rope, and then belay off the rope loop (tie in loop). It seems to be a UK thing for sure as it's often the default here. Personally I'll use a sling if I can. I think it stems for our climbs traditionally having spread out anchors a lot of the time, certainly not always though and it's very rare here to have bolted belays, we have a strict trad ethic most of the time. Being brought up climbing in the UK you're very unlikely to climb and find bolted belays, except on sport - of which we have very little multi pitch. It's not until you venture abroad that this becomes more normal. Hope that helps a little!

[@mickodell510]

@@JBMountainSkills as an American I too belay from a sling and I actually have never learned how to build a belay from the rope. I wonder if you could do a quick demo of how to do that? My climbing area has very close belay bolts but I'm always trying to learn more, especially if I get into a situation where a sling isn't an option. Thanks for these videos, they're great and very informative

[@robertito_dobbs]

Great question and answer. I know how to do it both ways but here in Colorado there are TONS of sport multi pitch and trad with bolted anchors. It makes a lot of sense that it's more common in a place where bolted anchors are on the rare side. A good reason to practice the "euro" way if traveling... thanks to you both

[@lukethornton1942]

Some good food for thought 🤔 👍

[@NevContractor1]

Remember that the knot on the rope loop will also abosrb energy as it tightens. This is why you should have an untightened knot when leading, with a tight stopper knot. Then when you have a high fall factor when leading, the knot can absorb some of the energy.

[@JBMountainSkills]

I agree with the knot absorbing energy of course, but I don't agree with an untightened knot.

[@NevContractor1]

@@JBMountainSkillsIt's what you'd be taught if you were UIAA qualified, and also plain common sense in order to mittigate fall factor/shock loading. Loose knot with a tight stopper knot, such that the main knot is "captured" and cannot unravel in any way. It can be the difference between life and death in a high fall factor.

[@marchd1997]

Can you lower people simply with your hands in the breaking rope when you are belaying in this way? Or do you need to do something anything fancy?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Nothing fancy needed 👊

[@richardmathieson662]

Could it also help with directing the force of a fall back onto the bomber gear placements & not on to the belay loop ,so you are not pulled about? Cheers Rick

[@JBMountainSkills]

Hi Rick, yeah I think that's mentioned in the video, it's the main reason I go into the rope loop by default.

[@johnliungman1333]

If your gear is bomber, why not just belay directly off the anchor? I must be missing something? I suspect there is something about the local climbing style or rock that leads you to not belay directly?

[@jnick5358]

What do you think about building the belay if you were to use a tree that was well back from the top of the climb? I have always just walked around the tree, back to the edge of the cliff and then clove hitched the rope to my harness and then belayed off of my belay loop or my rope loop. It recently occurred to me that it might be a bit difficult to escape the belay from that situation. Thanks for the excellent content!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Works just fine :) Still escapable, but you're right it may be a bit more work. I tend not to worry too much about that though.

[@johnliungman1333]

Walk around the tree and tie a BFK (quadruple overhand) loop. Then belay from the loop, ie directly from the tree. Superfast, no gear needed.

[@shanec508]

I was always taught to tie my rope loop smaller than you could fit a fist through, just so things don't get caught or clipped in it, did you tie that loop that big for demonstration purposes or is that typically how large you leave it?

[@jackmcgill754]

Question - do you recommend belaying from the rope loop only when you're belaying from above, or would you leave it on the rope loop if your second climbs through and leads the next pitch? Thanks for all these videos, I've been binge watching them, they're great and full of heaps of tips!

[@JBMountainSkills]

It depends, but it is pretty normal on trad to leave it on the rope loop.

[@carlspence-jones8447]

Since your a professional i am going to overly critical, (in reality i think its safe and have done similar things myself). Their are two problems with your system 1) loading a fig 8 in expansion 2) no redundancy in the system. Firstly, the clipping of your HMS into the figure 8 loop leads to a multi-directional (ring) load, this can cause the knot to roll and if this happens it can dramatically reduces the strength (along with a minor risk of untying itself if you have a short tail with no backup ). Secondly their is no redundancy, if the fig 8 rope loop fails bad things follow. This issue can be resolved by simply clipping the HMS for the anchors into your belay loop and belaying from that. A belay loop is considered a redundant link (designed with two full wraps of tape).

[@JBMountainSkills]

Ring loading: Yes it's a thing, but not at the forces we'll encounter belaying. Rope loops: They don't just fail. With those two points in mind, I don't see the points as problems.

[@carlspence-jones8447]

@@JBMountainSkills Thanks for your reply and the mention in the new video. I think your putting out really great content for free. I commend you for actively encouraging discussions and responding to idiots like myself who like to pick holes. (i hope you do not mind it) I do not really see the problem either, in most cases. However that said, when comparing setups i like to focus on what potently issues exist in each set up as the key takeaways. (the positives are usually more self evident, such as ease/speed) The way i see it, if you focus/ understand the weak links you can use, and more importantly avoid using, a specific setup as required. For example, you might not want this setup if you swapping lead on a multi pitch. When your second (new leader) might take a high factor fall at the start of the next pitch. I would be interesting in hearing your thoughts, as someone who has lots of experience teaching mountain skills, on how to develop students ability to self evaluate and make good choices? (its a one of the main reasons to learn face to face, from a good instructor like your self in my opinion) I see to many people relaying on what they have been told/ taught without actually thinking about it. FYI i am mainly a caver, so appreciate i generally have a non typical focus on being safe.

[@marchd1997]

Would you recomend using this method with a GRIGRI?

[@adriansth]

I just can't figure out why you wouldn't use the atc in guide mode and put it on the anchor. Then you are totally free if you need to get out of the anchor setup as well.

[@JBMountainSkills]

I probably will go in guide mode if I can, but it isn't always appropriate or the most efficient thing to to.

[@adriansth]

@@JBMountainSkills fair enough, love the videos though. Keep em comming

[@largeformatlandscape]

We’ve had a couple of serious accidents when anchors have pulled when seconds have fallen directly onto a guide mode plate. Would belaying off the rope loop have been different, they may well have been as you can take some of the fall on your body (optionally)

[@davidi1213]

Thanks

[@JBMountainSkills]

Cheers!

[@mattbaker1683]

I'd like to know, are you saying you clip the rope loop with the belay loop together, or just the rope loop on its own? I can see why it would be beneficial to clip the rope loop as it will prevent the harness being pulled in 2 directions simultaneously but can't really figure why not clip the both? If your tie-in to your harness is good and tidy which it always should be then I don't see that clipping both would cause any problems? Thanks JB 👍

[@JBMountainSkills]

Clipping both is absolutely a safe thing to do and I do see people doing it. I think you end up missing out on the good points of clipping one or the other. Like I say, absolutely safe, but personally not something I do. I don't want to get pulled around any more than necessary so default to the rope loop 99 times out of 100.

[@samuelstolarik6886]

in an anchor like this, where does the follower clips in when he comes to the belay?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah, that's a downside... there isn't really any sort of master point for that.

[@samuelstolarik6886]

@@JBMountainSkills what is the standard procedure for that then? when using anchors without master points does the follower just continues immediately? thanks a lot for the answer

[@petarsamkov9563]

How about simply clipping your plate in guide mode to the master point. You build your Belay as normal ( equalised 2/3 points) you’re attached to that point, why the need of belaying from your harness instead of being free ?

[@JBMountainSkills]

It's an option but the gear doesn't always allow guide mode to be a suitable option. I've done other videos about it :)

[@mcnitt]

@@JBMountainSkillscould you point to one of these videos? Cheers.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Let us know what you think!

[@cern1999sb]

I thought it was dangerous to belay someone beneath you with the rope coming down from an ATC-style device? I thought it would be easy for the rope to slip through the belay device? The way over thought to belay someone up is either to use guide mode, or pass the rope through a carabiner on your anchor somewhere before going down to them

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@cern1999sb no it’s not dangerous. Guide mode can be a good option of course in the right circumstance, as can this.

[@milodixon6264]

Is this equally safe if tying in with a bowline as a figure 8?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Good question! In theory a bowline isn't so strong ring loaded, in my opinion the reality is it's fine.

[@mantis1966]

@@JBMountainSkills I think that a bowline with no stopper is very weak when cross loaded. See this pull test. I think the units on the meter are kg. The bowline failed at about 184kg or 1.8kN [see 02:01] whereas a fo8 went over 6kN without failing. cascadeclimbers.com/forum/topic/97093-capsizing-a-bowline-knot/

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@mantis1966 yup, a bowline without some form of stopper isn’t of use in climbing.

[@mantis1966]

Bowline with a good stopper was strong though. Thanks for explaining the pros & cons & some of the myths.

[@sablinger]

i always thought a figure 8 should not be loaded radial...

[@ettoremaupoil6497]

I don't understand why you can't use the device in guide mode If you can, because I can't see the benefits of using the device like this.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Depends entirely on the setup, natural gear isn't alway suitable for it. If I can use guide mode I probably will.

[@jenyates3033]

One potential advantage is you are removing a point of failure from the system. In reality we trust our belay loops and our harness integrity all the time, I'm not sure on the merit of this one, but it's not going to be missed from the chain so why not? Another is that if all climbers belay from their tie in loop it makes it an automatic check at the start that everyone is tied in. No excuse for your second to tie in once you're at the top and not be checked. Everyone should do those buddy checks. Even the best of us can make a mistake: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Hill

[@largeformatlandscape]

Less wear on the harness if you use the rope loop… you can see wear on a rope but it’s hard to see the wear on a harness

[@snugglepuss2000]

belay loop is rated is it not? even partly worn ( not the super light dyneema ones) they have lots of layers of redundancy

[@danylokozynets9364]

nice, but look on your`s leg tie-in point and see where belay loop pressing, it rips lover piece of cloth (which is not load bearing) in direction of leg loop, it also puts stress on tie-in points stitching, doesn`t seems right, but with tie-in loop...it just pull the lop, not rip harness tie-in points apart

[@JBMountainSkills]

That doesn't happen though.

[@shammer5644]

I there a particular reason that you dont use the belay device in guide mode?

[@JBMountainSkills]

I often do, depends on a number of things though such as what’s appropriate for the belay, whether I’m likely to need to lower my second etc

[@MattyDredge]

Another reason to use your rope loop - although it's probably negligible and definitely a bit stingy. If you belay alot and wear out a part of your rope you can cut it off. With the belay loop you need a new harness

[@CellaDorrn]

... just use the belay loop... thats the reason we put it there..

[@JBMountainSkills]

Sometimes it’s potentially better not to though...

[@CellaDorrn]

JB Mountain Skills i personally don’t like to strap 3 things into one carabiner if i can avoid it.. the loop is basically the same thing.. .. if you can not work properly because it is uncomfortable for you or because the angle where the rope is going is strange or what ever, do what ever you need to do to make it save and working... but generally i would not prefer the rope loop.. when under an overhang, the route goes right or left it can be a problem to habe the short distance of the belay loop Also be aware that in the rope loop you could cross load your 8 and pull the tail of its as short as yours Im not s big guy so i also have less problems in terms of low distance so maybe thats why i do prefer it that way

[@CellaDorrn]

Oh to make that clear.. you said „tell me what you think“ and that was my first thoughts ... not that i really disagree with the video, content or anything

[@adventureswithfrodo2721]

You know what they say about opinions.

[@steveduvenage3123]

Why not belaying your partner from the anchors instead of your harness in that way you'll be safe

[@JBMountainSkills]

Not as simple as that though, sadly. Of course belaying either directly or indirectly can be super safe, just depends very much on the situation.

[@cameronbryan2088]

I may be wrong but I read somewhere that the original harnesses didn't have a belay loop you had no choice but to belay off of your rope loop again no idea if it's true just remember reading it on some random website years ago :) would love to know if that's correct if anyone can be bothered to fact check :)

[@jnick5358]

A swami belt would of course have no belay loop. I also had a Chouinard "Alpine Bod" harness BITD that had no belay loop (that was about 1987).