Why Do We Reject African Traditional Weddings?

Host: Ursula Mariani │Instagram: shortest.link/4RiO
Co-host: Sibonganjalo Bonga Botha │ Facebook: shortest.link/55e6
Technical Director & Videographer: Given Masilela │ Instagram: shortest.link/4RiU
Producer: Sibonganjalo Bonga Botha │ Facebook: shortest.link/55e6
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[@ThabisoRatlou]

I agree with Mme Ursula's view that a wedding should be intimate and be around people who are genuinely there to bless your union ship not there to make comments about the cake or the dress or the food.

[@gkhumalo5343]

Beautiful topic. To add mine as someone that got (customarily) married in November 2022 I think the desire to have a western wedding is for us to have what WE want. So many times, during the planning of our traditional ceremonies, my inputs were brushed aside because "it wasn't about me". Both my wife and I, on our respective sides didn't or couldn't influence how our celebrations looked because batho ba baholo were telling us how things are done. Therefore, nobody cares what we want to do. Imagine, being told to do "step" to a King Monada song 😀. So I think the 'white' wedding is where we get to express ourselves and design it to our liking. Like slow dancing to a Beyoncé song, because that's what we sing along to when we're road tripping. Or Tamia cause this is what we do after church while we feed each other di McFlurry. Re bana ba di RomCOM, re romantic maan! So we do the western wedding (putting it loosely) to avenge ourselves.

[@katlehosello1192]

Not King Monada hle😂

[@nomsa06]

I agree with the solid concern regarding how customary processes can tend to not let the couple have a voice. It's almost as though it is more about maintaining cultural rituals for the elders rather than a merging of the two worlds. This then leads people to end up wanting the Western method of going completely individualistic with the format of the wedding. Abapathi bama customary methods need to also understand these nuances and work with couples rather than against. I don't like the idea that people feel that they need to go beyond the African culture to express themselves. Surely we have to reimagine what African ways mean to the current generation. What do we maintain and what do we propose as new methods that can still maintain the core themes.

[@The_Third_Place]

in zim when someone get married we have weekly extended famuly meetings before the marriage, both families come and we strategise on who has what resource and expertise and how they can assist, the uncle with the luxury cars will pledge hsi car as the couple;s ride, the bridal team will sleep at the rich aunties home, the grandparents emakhaya will contribute cattle as meet for the event, the brides team will be hosted at one home for a month to learn the 2 step lol, we already know the good cooks in the family so they will work with the caterers. im shocked when given says his dad wouldnt contribute to his wedding, when i get marries i expect some cattle or money to be given to me by my father and the same is expected of me when my son also gets married, coz vele where do we expect newly weds to get all the muscle, my great grandmother gave my granddad 7 of her own cattle to pay lobola

[@marothimotshekga1647]

Its interesting what Bonga said about how African young girls imagine their dream wedding in a white dress and rarely in their own traditional wedding attire. To me this shows that this going beyond marketing but rather an issue of representation (and indoctrination) in the media we consume from a young age.

[@Uayandaaa]

This man’s articulation 😪👌

[@Talesi007]

Great convo. I would argue that even the western tradition is not written either and yet everyone knows how it works due to storytelling like books and movies. I did I white wedding but I didn't have to read anything to know how it's done. Highly visible people like royal families, celebrities and politicians have huge influence in defining what a wedding "should" look like. The tricky thing about the upholding of African culture is that if Africans don't normalise it no one will. We have to validate, invest and prioritise our cultures in same way other groups do. We need more movies. The African storytelling also needs to be as easy to understand and compelling as a white wedding story - I sometimes think deep vernac and lack of modernisation can alienate us from appreciating our cultures as a real part of us. Africans are sometimes too quick to assimilate to western cultures because our own culture makes us uncomfortable. We also want to pick and chose which elements of culture we want like we love the communal nature of banding together but we don't want a random aunt's contribution thrust upon us and unfortunately I don't think you can have the former without the latter. I think South Africans are contending with the clashing cultures of western individualism and African communalism which is captured by Ubuntu (“umuntu ngumuntu ngabanye bantu” (a person is a person through other people)). I think western individualism says "a person is a person on their own without the help or input from others and you just have to care about what you want alone"

[@ramanalamaanda4864]

Apartheid has broken the storytelling stage

[@PaleMore]

I think many families are broken in SA where children are already born out of wedlock and bear the 'wrong' surname. And having to navigate 'whose' culture they need to honour during the negotiations and customs. It takes unity, maturity and a lot of compromise to satisfy all involved parties during the traditional processes. Also, the couple has to concede that the traditional processes are less about them as individuals, but about the family and elders. And Ursula is right, not much is documented because the elders die with this knowledge. How many of us know our clan names?

[@sundaes_za]

Well Said 👌🏽

[@zammyzee8073]

Bathong guys I didn't expect an episode this week from y'all 🎉

[@theconversationcapital]

We’re committed to you 😂♥️♥️♥️

[@zammyzee8073]

@@theconversationcapital 😂🥰 please love it for us ke sana 💅

[@NtMasa]

What if we initiate the documentation of these traditions to prevent them from being improvised over time? We could create a cloud-based document that encompasses various cultures, with specific categories like the birth of a child, payment of "damages," lobola, and events such as the death of a wife or husband. Those who have access to older family members can contribute to populate it. While there might be discrepancies in the information, it would serve as a foundational step.

[@Om29410]

Love it!

[@Uayandaaa]

@@Om29410mhmmm❤. Yes. Culture and tradition ways are not written down thats why sometimes its easier for elders to get away with things because they can change it a bit. And to say documentation doesn’t mean its the western way. This must be written down for reference to our future generations

[@nomsa06]

I really enjoy how you have all unpacked this. I wish you would bring people who potentially hold some of the archival knowledge and are married. Having Given on the front table was really great. There’s so much to unpack around this topic that I feel like part 2 wouldn’t be a bad idea 😅.

[@tshepisomalebye3657]

A part two with the archivists

[@lynettenene9218]

I like the way Ursula say na keabatla

[@nokumdlalose]

Thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

[@zamaguma99]

I also think there's something to be said about how South African cultural check boxes are altered according to the location where the ceremony will be held varying between township, suburb and village. These three settings will be able to apply different parts of culture.

[@shaunhlatshwayo9832]

Given is smart 🔥🔥🔥 Ursula, beauty with brains❤😊

[@leratononyane8515]

Is it too much at the office or too little at the wedding😮. I had corporate wear made for every day at the office and a black woman professional asked why am I dressed like I am headed to a wedding😂. There is definitely an aspect of feeling inadequate that comes with isolating our cultures away from spaces we consider affluent or bourgie.

[@CC-mp7id]

The problem is that we are still mentally colonised and conquered. We were taught that everything western and white is superior (e.g. skin, wedding, worship, law) and to associate everything black as bad and inferior. We are still subconsciously perpetuating such practices in this day and age. Western culture is about capitalism and individualism and it evolves whereas African culture is historically rich and is about the family unit and community. The western wedding is termed as modern and is about flaunting of one’s wealth whereas the African wedding is termed as traditional/archaic and is about bringing families together. The Bantu core culture is similar throughout sub-sahara Africa with a few variations here and there. Your father’s sisters are the custodians of the family norms and culture and they act as advisors on family matters. Written African culture and practices were kept by the Chief’s Council and could be consulted on any matter. When the colonisers came one of the first thing they did was to confiscate all written materials and brake the family unit. They rewrote our history with a narrative that suited their purpose, outlawed some of our cultural practices, disempowered chiefs and enacted laws that served their purposes and protected their interests and not ours, introduced their education and religious denominations. So knowledge was passed on to a new generation through oral tradition. Today the new generation is lost and weak not knowing their culture and history except that written by colonisers and at the same time they adopt a foreign culture they don’t know. Our culture is now consulted in times of trouble and at times it’s distorted. Weddings have become expensive because we want to please people from either side, on one side our family with African culture and values, and on the other side seek validation from our friends who adopted the modern western culture. We no longer see value and purpose of our culture and we try to fit in the western culture. In African culture paying lobola and having African wedding ceremonies and celebration was considered as a marriage. But today pre-marital ceremonies have been replaced by various parties (kitchen party, bachelor’s and bachelorette parties) and the real marriage is considered as a union made in church or court with a marriage certificate. The wedding has been commercialised and is now a competition as to who will have the best wedding of the year. After the wedding the young couple is left broke and in debt with no one to assist in getting them back to their feet. In African culture you get married into the family and not only the individual hence the aunties and uncles want to be involved and you may feel that your wedding has been hijacked. But if you expressly say this is for me and to please myself, they will take a back seat pre and post wedding and only wait for your wedding invitation. However, reality will hit home when things don’t go according to expectations and wishes and you will need to go back to your family for advice and help. Not everything western, and certainly not culture, is constructive and if we don’t return to our rich African culture, we will remain broken and lost.

[@TshepangSekgobela-oh2ep]

I loved the conversation but I think this specific conversation needed a discussion with people of different backgrounds to create depth towards the conversation.

[@theconversationcapital]

Great idea, do you perhaps have a guest recommendation?

[@TshepangSekgobela-oh2ep]

@@theconversationcapital I would recommend Mbuso Khoza, and Joshua Maponga to name a few. They share interesting points about traditional weddings and what they symbolize and how we can embrace them...

[@Mrtdogg101]

I agree with Ursula that one will have to take a stance. If you want to marry at home affairs with just you and your spouse so be it. There is a lot of pressure during marriage ceremonies that is outside the purview of the newlyweds but may have lasting ramifications on their marriage many years to come. At the end of the day the buck should stop with them so they can build the future they envisioned.

[@barbaranombulelo639]

I agree with Ursula , couples should use resources that are available to them when getting married. For me a white wedding is very affordable than a traditional wedding. Because a traditional Zulu wedding must take place esgcaweni, of which is not something that is not accessible to me coz I'm from a township. Documenting our cultural practices is very important because umgcagco(Zulu wedding) has a lot of western elements with questionable origins.

[@bheksjr]

But in terms of financial costs though ?

[@thamimaimela2471]

Such an interesting and realistic topic. Loved it! I can’t believe it took me so long to watch one of your episodes. #NewSubscriber

[@zamanimyende5975]

Very Interesting Topic and well presented 😎

[@kuhleteady4418]

Ursula defines beauty 😢😮❤

[@Uayandaaa]

this woman is perfection 😭❤️.

[@humxnly]

Hello Hello Hello and welcome to yet another episode of Conversation Capital...... beautiful topics beautiful minds❤

[@mampurumampuru135]

Batswadi. . . batswadi. . .batswadiiiiiii. . . .The rejection of African traditional weddings is birthed by batswadi undermining the couple during the preparations. . . .its all about them and what they want and less about the couple's desire and what should be done. . . . . .Further to the issue of lack of documenting is that the scope of what should be discussed during negotiations by the two families is undefined. . .most negotiations lack direction to the point that significant things are left out and you will be told 5 years down the line gore a particular process was mistakenly omitted and must be performed, resulting in another ceremony (with costs). The negotiation table is turned into auction table where the crux topic is the other party bidding forty thousand and the other party demanding ninety thousand and the strong one win. The rest of the significant things you get them as and when Malome or Rakgadi remembers, that way the wedding never really ends. . . .

[@Uayandaaa]

Thats why culture and tradition needs to documented❤

[@sollynkgalabimankga6012]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@Mrtdogg101]

Ursula I have a question. After watching your interview with Pen and sharing briefly about your origins im curious...setswana wa kopana le sone kae? Im sorry to offramp!

[@jeansophia2092]

Ke dumelana le wena Ursula ka taba ya culture especially when you ask is it factual nah? A lot os been lost in translation

[@anniejames3059]

Why every Africa like talking about Nigeria and Nigerian?

[@zamanimyende5975]

If this topic can be addressed kings and traditional leaders😢 it can be make sure 😊

[@mahudumashabela786]

Great topic. However, I think with such topics, we need to bring people who are conversant with such.

[@Nawo.D]

Documentation is important. The challenge with documentation is that traditional processes are not fixed. Often times they are spirit led therefore may differ from one individual to the next/ one family to the next. Secondly, the majority of the things that we do during ceremonies are imikhuba thus are influenced by the age, social, and economic climax of the time.

[@kealebogamonnahela6639]

Lobala has documentation.

[@empressmouande8237]

Oral or written none are the best because they both can be manipulated at anytime. But inside of once conscious logical mind lies the truth because life is the same yesterday, today and always. Oral is the reason we know our past and great Ancestors as Afrikans. In most cases the truth is never written only been told in stories. Written is how people manipulates and control information .

[@prudancekgaladi9861]

African culture can be problematic especially for women in general and women who are about to get married. I really don’t want to listean to bo rakgadi telling me to bhekezela before I get married. I would rather spend time celebrating with my friends. I think couples have the power to decide the type of celebration they want based on their affordability.

[@AccordingToLeah]

Anything African is about instinct. Cultures have beautiful aspects about them but they shouldn't be forced, or else they become inauthentic and breed bad energy in general. Joy and peace when celebrating or doing any event that involves family will always carry into legacy, not some fixed documented, undocumented, or ancestral tradition that doesn't feed into peace

[@ctm2594]

In SA, the law recognises the process of lobola and celebration of lobola as being married...in community of property

[@zammyzee8073]

Mmmhh that point Given made about getting married with and how resources are specifically accessible to us... 🤯🤌🏾 Colonisation did a real number on us guys. Actually, there's really nothing romantic about weddings but we're out here trying to attach sentimentality to a mere formality. The events preceding the wedding in an African context are the ones that are actually more significant than the wedding. I yearn for the day we as Africans come full circle post colonialism on our customs and practices so that we can attribute value (money and sentiment ) where it's due. Some of the things we observe were literally for practical reasons back then and culture is supposed to evolve with the times. Our way should be enough. P.S. This is why Sho Majozi is almost always wearing her Xibelani (spelling 😅)

[@poisonboxingfitness]

It's highly likely that the former British colonists would inherent the English culture(weddings, religion and education) and language which is why we practice duality, like white wedding +traditional wedding, Church +traditional practice where need be and etc.

[@nomsa06]

A white wedding is not in the Bible though. I’m not sure why people keep dualising the two. Nowhere in the written bible does it trace what we see as a white wedding. If anything, what is in there is based on the cultural setting and context of those who were getting married (Bible). On the matter of colonisation: White people definitely did come and entrench Africans with European cultural practices which still impacts us today.

[@nondumisondhlovu9181]

@@nomsa06I think maybe what needs to be noted is that since South Africa was colonised but also religionised under the Christian culture that Europeans (the English more specifically) brought, then it makes sense why a white wedding in this geographic context is synonymous with a Christian wedding. So, while there is no Christian wedding described and prescribed in the Bible, who religionised us and the cultural context under which the religion they evangalised to South Africans will then influence the practices of those who then adopt that religion, in this case, Christianity.

[@ExpatlivingwithKB]

Hey Ursula. What’s the name of the podcast you were referring to? I didn’t get the name. Thanks ❤

[@theconversationcapital]

The art of manliness.

[@ExpatlivingwithKB]

@@theconversationcapital thank you

[@ramanalamaanda4864]

A marriage aint goin tu work if the components or materials that make up a marriage are incorrect I have a sister n have told myself that if a man is goin tu come n marry my sister he has to have the experience of taking care of animals etc that enable the guy tu b able tu take care of the wife He aint gonna b abusive unless if he abused the things he was taking care of before the marriage that is education with practical work which is regarded as the informal education Where a guy hus tought that money makes a marriage he work for money n doesn't get tu know hw tu take care of a woman thats why he normally cheats bcos he sees that money can get him anything there's alot i can say😂

[@tshiamolebeloane1148]

Yes, we can document these things. But, will you accept it? Because, most defy culture. And wonder why things are not going well.

[@prime_m]

pardon me guys, whats the podcast she mentioned? the art of what?

[@theconversationcapital]

The art of manliness

[@SiyaMedia]

the oral documentation happens on the spot as well leaving no time to reflect on what the supposed expert is blurting

[@ThabisoRatlou]

📍 First one 🤔?

[@NtMasa]

What if we initiate the documentation of these traditions to prevent them from being improvised over time? We could create a cloud-based document that encompasses various cultures, with specific categories like the birth of a child, payment of "damages," lobola, and events such as the death of a wife or husband. Those who have access to older family members can contribute to populate it. While there might be discrepancies in the information, it would serve as a foundational step.