Why do women often feel unequal to men in the church? Liz Cooledge Jenkins and Andy Kind

Today on Unbelievable? Andy Kind hosts the first part of an occasional series on women in the church, how women are portrayed in the Bible, and questions around women in ministry. Why do women often feel unequal to men in Church? There are plenty of differing views and we will cover a number of them in the coming months.
Women in the Bible frequently emerge as devoted followers of Jesus, prominently present at significant events such as the tomb and the Cross. They function as followers and disciples of Jesus, with the Apostle Paul acknowledging and respecting female coworkers. However, our understanding often falls short in fully recognising the humanity of these female characters, as attention tends to be directed solely toward Jesus' interactions with them. This series aims to delve deeper into the lives of these women, offering a more comprehensive exploration that may reshape our perspectives today.
First up we have Liz Cooledge Jenkins, a writer, preacher, and former college campus minister, and the author of Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women’s Humanity from Evangelicalism.
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[@walterstevens8676]

If women are unhappy with a particular church, there's nothing stopping them starting their own, is there?

[@mr.c2485]

She keeps using the word, “ complicated “. I thought god was not the author of confusion??

[@introvertedchristian5219]

I thought you were about to say, "I don't think it means what she thinks it means."

[@martinploughboy988]

If you say a passage is complicated, you get to change its meaning.

[@mitchschultz8335]

For one thing, the sing song voice, I could not take in if I sat under her preaching. But, more critically, when she bemoaned male leadership attitude toward women, she threw in their attitude toward "queer people" as well. I had to listen twice, and yes, she said it, and ANDY SAID absolutely nothing. Anyone concerned?

[@martinploughboy988]

It's what happens when women are allowed leadership.

[@yourheinness9275]

Why didn’t Jesus come as a female?

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Because he was MALE. 😊

[@joygibbons5482]

@@ReverendDr.Thomas Because god is male. Women are offered nothing in this religion

[@mr.c2485]

He/she did..

[@martinploughboy988]

For the same reason God always presents Himself as male, although being a spirit he has no sex. It is about role & the role is different in females & males.

[@DunderMifflin_ThisisPam]

Women are realizing we have been either pushed aside while being expected to do most of the work in church, or thought of ourselves as "less than" and pushed ourselves down. Women are equal and our gifts and abilities should no longer be viewed in a patronizing way. Complementarianism is a new teaching, since the 1980's really. If you study the original language of the texts it does not stand up. Men and women are equally created in the image of God and stand before him equal in "rank" whether within marriage, in the world at large, in family, church structure, business, etc.

[@carlpeterson8182]

You might not agree but you know most complementarians do not hold that women are not equal. Both sexes are equal but have complementary roles. Both are made equally in the image of God and are of equal rank. It is important to get the other side correct.

[@viperstriker4728]

Do you believe the pastor if a church is more important and everyone is "less then" him? Because I don't, and it seems to me women have had a lot of valuable contributions outside of being a leader that are being ignored. Paul called himself a slave to God, which you refer to yourself as a slave?

[@carlpeterson8182]

@@viperstriker4728 no, I do not. I am complemetarian. All are equal no matter what role they play. Only Jesus Christ is superior. The Trinity is superior. That is all.

[@carlpeterson8182]

@@viperstriker4728 oh and I am a chaplain and work with many women chaplains. I have no issues working with them. So th ere is that.

[@viperstriker4728]

@@carlpeterson8182 Oh, my commenter was intended for the original comment that started this thread, DunderMifflin. Sorry for the confusion. Though out of curiosity, what is the difference between a pastor and a chaplain? (I lean toward the complemetarian view myself but don't know enough about it yet.)

[@oliverscott2752]

Very disappointing

[@thierry2720]

Timothy 2:9-15 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Jeez, I wonder why women feel unequal...

[@viperstriker4728]

Yeah, lets just forget that this was written to a specific group of people that lived 2000 years ago and just assume everything can be understood without understanding the cultural phrases in it. Do you read all historical documents with such disregard? Or just the Bible? If you want to know what these verses actually mean, then I recommend Mike Winger's video on it. (They will probably still offend you, but at least then you will have a reason to be offended.)

[@thierry2720]

@@viperstriker4728 Ok fair enough. Do you have a way to differentiate in the Bible : - the parts that are to be taken literally? - the parts that have to be adapted to our modern times? - the part that are only metaphorical? Oh, and by the way, I'm not that easily offended, especially by a 2000 year-old text. ;)

[@user-iz8np3vv4i]

@@thierry2720 As you wrote: And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. This is all Paul. A Judge was REQUIRED to judge only the hardest cases. These could include homicides. Deborah was a Judge. My informal essay on her is a 12 minutes read, should you wish a study at some point.

[@martinploughboy988]

Having a different role does not mean you are not equal.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@viperstriker4728 It is written, by the Spirit, to all God's people. If you read vs 13 & 14 you will see Paul applies it to the Creation, so it applies for all time.

[@carlpeterson8182]

It would have been interesting to see what she makes of 1 Timothy 3:1-5. It is one of the main passages of qualifications of leadership or elders in the church. If you notice one is that he be a husband of one wife. The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? Titus 1:5-6 mirrors 1 Timothy 3. This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you- 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.

[@viperstriker4728]

For anyone that wants the deep dive into all of these verse I recommend Mike Winger's videos on it. It was a good choice for her to use the one about women being silent as that one seems to be understood by both sides to have some context issues when quoted alone. Though it is also a bit of a straw man of complimentarians as the implication of "rebutting" that verse would suggests that people actually think women can't speak in church. It is very obvious to both sides that women were prophesying openly. The actually debate is about who could judge prophesy, which the complimentatians believe was reserved for the male elders.

[@carlpeterson8182]

@@viperstriker4728 I was thinking the same about her choice of verses. That is why I brought up the verses of male only elders. I think we are in same page of at least what is the issue and what verses should have been discussed instead of the ones that were. A better discussion would have been great

[@viperstriker4728]

@@carlpeterson8182 You might also notice her choice of words. Pastor is described as "position of power". Gender differences are described as "socialized differently". Yet women are needed to stop a "patriarchal" perspective as her book titles it. Callings from God are "affirmed by others". Complementarian churches are described as "conservative". I myself go to a church with a female lead pastor so it can't be said I not open to hear egalitarian ideas. But so much political terminology being used in a discussion of the Bible..... And quite frankly I lost respect for this host when he said in order to have a calling from God we first have to feel it is acceptable..... off the top of my head not a single calling from God was acceptable to culture at the time. Imagine if Paul only did what he thought acceptable as a Jew.

[@user-iz8np3vv4i]

Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. To say Jesus was ok with a woman being a Judge over Israel in the Old Covenant, but Jesus would be strongly opposed to a woman being an elder in a small church in the New, makes no sense. This is all Paul. Paul had a number of false, contradictory and confusing teachings. He was very much a man of his time and his pride.

[@viperstriker4728]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i And you think Paul didn't know about Deborah? I don't actually know where I stand on the female pastor issue, mostly I don't care. But I have observed that when people appear to be hypocrites/contradictory, it is usually a failure to actually understand them. I would risk saying that you don't actually know what Paul believed. You have just formed assumptions based on what other people have told you Paul believed. I would recommend reading the Bible as a historian first, and finding out what the culture is like. Paul is very much not a man of his time and everyone hated him for it back then.

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

because they are unequal

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Equality is non-existent in this phenomenal sphere. Equality exists in abstract ideas such as mathematics and arguably on the sub-atomic level ALONE.🤓 UNFORTUNATELY, it requires an intelligence quotient above double-digits in order to be able to comprehend such truthful concepts. 😛

[@colinwilson7140]

I tuned into the podcast in the hope of hearing a biblical explanation from scripture for woman leaders in the church. Unfortunately I did not hear anything at all to support this. All I heard was a lady who seemed to be mixing up the role of women LEADING a church which the Bible does not teach, with the great and fantastic work that women do in a biblical church in a support role within a church which scripture 100% supports.

[@viperstriker4728]

She also said man and women are socialized differently..... the term socialized in used in psychology to deny the gender differences. The fact that she chose that word tells me that her understanding of gender as a whole from a scientific perspective is based on lies. Jordan Peterson recently did video with Sarah Hill on birth control and women's hormones which explains a lot of biological differences between men and women. I feel like people should probably start there instead of trying to read the Bible while thinking gender is just a social construct. Then they should read some ancient history to learn how man and women contributed to society in the past (not as sexist as people think). Then finally the Bible should be read. Coming to it that way people will start to see why Christians have historically been advocates for women's rights and equality.

[@carlabraine6756]

"Indoctrinate them with oppressive views?" This was a terribly unbalanced presentation. It didn't include a fair description of the complementarian position (biblical obedience/historic orthodoxy) and involved a lot of argumentation based on personal experience and "alternative" ways to interpret key scriptures. Also conspicuously absent was any discussion of Catholic female perspectives on this. Complementarianism is the majority Christian view worldwide. Jenkins is clearly an unapologetic theological progressive and names three of the most divisive female voices in evangelicalism today as her influences. Hear their words in her quote "If the church is behind the secular culture, that's a problem." No, sorry. This is not a problem. Complementarianism is actually a form of Christian witness in the secular world. I am an American evangelical wife/mother of similar age and education to Jenkins (I have also lived in the Pacific Northwest). I also have four daughters and I have absolute confidence that they have robust opportunities to use their gifts in the church within the outlines that the Word of God permits. This segment was a huge miss for me.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

🐟 25. THE ROLE OF FEMALES: Women are fortunate because they are BORN with a job: Daughter. Wife. Mother. Females normally have no role in public life. Exceptions to this rule are relatively rare. For instance, women may work in the arts (singers, actors, and dancers, which often demand female players), or as maids or nurses, both of which are feminine duties, providing it has no detrimental effect on their PRIMARY function, as daughters, wives, and mothers. So, a female’s fundamental role is to serve her MASTERS (any man in her family circle), even from a relatively young age, by performing domestic duties and raising her children. Barren women (heterosexual or otherwise) are extremely unfortunate, but can still devote their lives to serving their husband, father, grandfather, uncles, or in the event that none of those men are extant, adult male cousins. Studies have shown that the more a woman deviates from this innate societal function, the less she is fulfilled. The phrase, “Cat Lady”, says it all. As a general rule, women should be protected in the home, and never wander-out alone. They should FULLY cover their bodies in the presence of post-pubescent males outside the family circle. Even the prostitutes in some nations wear veils in public, even if out of fear of reprisal. Having lived the eremitic life of a monastic priest for a few decades, I can attest to the importance of keeping one’s home clean and tidy. It is obvious to me that housekeeping is very much a full-time occupation, and that if I were to neglect my domestic chores, my health and comfort would greatly diminish. As would be expected of a person in my position, I follow a strict diet and am obsessive in regards to hygiene. Without a spouse, the onus is on me to maintain my residence in a prim and proper manner, even though it results in me spending less time teaching religion as a member of the Holy Priesthood (The World Teacher, in my particular case). Therefore, the role of a housewife is of PARAMOUNT importance, and must never be discounted by anybody, particularly feminist ideologues. The following chapter deals with feminism. The ONLY reason I have resided alone for most of my adult life is due to the fact that there is a severe scarcity of decent women in my country, and indeed the entire world, what to speak of holy and righteous women. Unfortunately, few women, particularly in the more affluent nations, any longer receive adequate training in the connubial arts. In my former marriages, I was forced to perform most household chores. In recent centuries, due to various factors (FEMINISM, in particular), women have become so degraded, that is it practically impossible to find an example of an ideal woman. Therefore, in order to reference examples of such a woman, one is forced to refer to figures from ancient myths. Mariam, the mother of Lord Jesus Christ, and Devī Sītārānī, the wife of Śri Rāja Rāma, King of Ayodhya, are the epitome of womanhood, and ought to be the role models for each and every girl born on this planet. That is assuming, of course, that those two women were, in actual fact, the gentle, refined, humble and submissive goddesses they were portrayed to be in the archaic scriptures. Obviously, this teaching receives an ENORMOUS amount of scorn, contempt and derision from a certain proportion of women (and also many "men"), but that is perfectly fine, because, such foolish feminists are destined to die lonely and alone, with no family surrounding them, and hopefully not transfer their adulterated genes to forthcoming generations. In some locations in the world, STRAY COWS freely wander the urban streets, displaying their teats. Similarly, in most locations, women wander the dangerous streets alone or in groups, displaying their bosoms and other bodily parts. Such loose women are no better than STRAY COWS. The TRUTH is very difficult to accept, right, Slave? “Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the TRUTH.” Siddhārtha Gautama (AKA The Buddha), Aṅguttara Nikāya 3.131 (Paraphrased). Paṭicchanna Sutta “...encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.” ************* “Yet women will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.” ************* “Women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.” St. Paul of Tarsus, Titus 2:4-5. 1 Timothy 2:15. 1 Corinthians 14:34.

[@viperstriker4728]

And of course queer was mentioned. We can't marginalize the queer people guys... Progressives will say they care about women all day, but at the end of the day they will give everything to men in the name of equality. (So long as the men put on a dress of course.) Then there was the line about unconscious bias. We need to accept other ways of leading that differ from what we are used to.... Seeing as Jesus is our example of a leader, I take this to mean they want to reform Christianity in their own image.

[@martinploughboy988]

Strangely I can't see the replies to this post. But you have an excellent point.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

@@martinploughboy988, not strange for KZbin.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

You are in error about Apollos, he does know what he is doing, it is written, he was an eloquent man well-versed in the scriptures and spoke accurately concerning the things of Jesus, however he only knew the baptism of John, when Priscilla and Aquila spoke to him they simply enlightened him more adequately concerning god and Jesus, and in this, they would have spoke to him about being baptised in the name of Jesus and also being baptised by the Holy Spirit, as Paul did when he came across some people later on in the scriptures, so don't tell me he didn't know what he was doing, you have missed it completely, because what it is showing you is this, and this is the problem in the world today, many people are well versed in the scriptures having accurate knowledge of Jesus therefore the power of their preaching comes from the power of knowledge, and in this you can be deceived, because many people preach today have knowledge but they lack the Holy Spirit, this is why so many churches fail this is why so many preachers fail, because there is no power of the holy spirit in their hearts, there is no power of the holy spirit in their lives, everyone is after knowledge, yet, you fail to be born of God,

[@MsGardener77]

The thumbnail is enough to answer the question. Women "feel" unequal because they think how they feel and equality matters. If you want to be great, you become a servant *of all*. Even Christ did not consider equality a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing. If you are struggling with this particular form of self-centeredness spend some time in Philippines 2. I did, just sayin.

[@yourheinness9275]

And that is why God cursed a man with the responsibility of leading. Because we don’t have the opportunity or responsibility to run with FEELINGS! This world doesn’t work on feelings! Feelings change from moment to moment.

[@yourheinness9275]

Feelings are for women bringing up children and children. And women have those in abundance given to them by God.

[@viperstriker4728]

@@yourheinness9275 I will point out that men seem to have just as many problems with their feelings as woman. It's different, a lot more aggression/anger, but just as troublesome. That being said I do think of feelings as a luxury that leaders don't get. The leader isn't allowed to lie and he isn't allowed to show anything that will demoralize those he is leading. So I very much agree that leading in the Biblical way can feel like a curse. But I would characterize it as a sacrifice that man are asked to make. The same way Jesus died to self, so should we.

[@yourheinness9275]

The reason women don’t want to submit to their husbands are the same reasons men don’t want to submit to Jesus. We know this! We see this in ourselves! When are you women going to obey God’s laid out plan for us since the beginning.

[@yourheinness9275]

When or more likely IF you manage to find a partner that loves the Lord and fear Him , will you lay down your hostility towards your man?

[@joygibbons5482]

Women get a double wamy, submit to God/Jesus and to their husbands.

[@viperstriker4728]

@@joygibbons5482 Man are called to lead as Christ lead the church. Jesus died setting the example for us to follow.... do you really want a role where the ideal includes death? And since when is submitting to God a wamy? If you believe God wants what is best for you, and that He is smarter then you, then submitting is awesome. I have a great boss at work, he treats people as equals but definitely leads. Not once have a felt wamied following his lead. The church I go to actually has a lead female pastor. I am not trying to "keep women in their place" and hate that crap. But I can't help but feel that your heart isn't in the right place with your comment.

[@butterflybeatles]

Power is seized -- not granted.

[@viperstriker4728]

You are a communist perhaps?

[@dfwherbie8814]

RIIGGGHT! Very Jesus-like….

[@yourheinness9275]

My question would be why would women want to lead? Do they know what a burden that is? We don’t want to lead we were given that task by GOD. It a burden not a privilege!

[@DManCAWMaster]

The reason is simple. They are. People are equal before God, not each other

[@viperstriker4728]

I disagree, that sounds like pride to me.

[@CalebHembree]

Could you get William Lane Craig to debate John MacArthur on Predestination and Free will?

[@CalebHembree]

Or William Lane Craig and John Lennox

[@martinploughboy988]

Craig is a philosopher, not a theologian. It would be interesting to see him debate what is needed in a Christian debater with James White.

[@CalebHembree]

I would say William Lane Craig has philosophical arguments for theology which isn’t good but I think he does have a brilliant mind when it comes to thinking about theology. And philosophy

[@martinploughboy988]

@@CalebHembree But his theology is mistaken. For a start, he discounts Genesis 1-11 as historical narrative. His philosophical arguments are worthless in apologetics when those he debates already know God exists, as Romans 1 tells us.

[@CalebHembree]

@@martinploughboy988 Yes! I would agree that some of his theology is incorrect.

[@marriage4life893]

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭ As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. My people, those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.

[@steveandjuliecresswell7950]

Very interesting and I enjoyed listening to this a lot but I would have to agree with others that Unbelievable has worked best for me over the years in often presenting a significant issue with 2 intelligent and respectful people on opposite sides of a particular issue or theological debate. This one tied in with my beliefs and theology very well but didn't really present thr rational and theological reasons behind the more traditional conservative views that many Christians and churches do still adhere to. I strongly disagree with such views both theologically and in practice and fruits I see from incredibly gifted and fruitful female leades and preachers but it would be good for this channel to keep giving space toboth sides of arguments in future more consistently.

[@PremierUnbelievable]

Thanks so much for this thoughtful feedback. We will definitely return to this topic, and we are not abandoning the debate format, as you can see from the show on abortion this past week and also a show we are preparing now between Christian pastor Mack Stiles and atheist Dan Barker. Please consider rating the podcast on your podcast platform of choice! Thank you!

[@martinploughboy988]

I note that you say "rational and theological" but not biblical, why is that?

[@martinploughboy988]

@@PremierUnbelievable You seem not to have any people from the Reformed perspective in the UK, why is that?

[@yourheinness9275]

Was it clear to us when God said it? Why did God configure the hierarchy and in the way He did?

[@alexhamilton624]

What do you not understand about the apostleship of Junia?

[@martinploughboy988]

@@alexhamilton624 She wasn't an Apostle, she was well known to them.

[@alexhamilton624]

@@martinploughboy988 If you look at the Greek, that is not a plausible answer. You would have to simply say Paul was wrong.

[@alexhamilton624]

@@martinploughboy988 Further, Paul says she was in Christ before he was. That means she became a follower either before or within 3-4 years following the resurrection. In all likelihood this is Joanna one of the women who followed Jesus. If the same thing was said about a man, no one would question it.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@alexhamilton624 Seems the translators of the ESV are happy with that interpretation, which is even acceptable of the AV's translation. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me. (Romans 16:7) Clearly there were quite a few Jews who were in Christ before Paul: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

[@carlpeterson8182]

Unbelievable used to be great but it has really gone downhill since Justin Brierly is no longer leading most discussions. There still have been some good ones and I love listening to the classics though. This one was particularly disappointing since the other side was not represented but straw manned. Even when the guest was supposed to steal man the belief, she straw manned it. When asked to give her reasons for her belief she was vague, and she only gave very general exegetical and theological reasons why her beliefs are true. It would have been better to have a complementarian to debate or at least be in a conversation that could push the other side and force her to give better reasons for her belief. I do not feel any more reasons to believe in egalitarianism at all after watching this interview. It would be interesting to get a more conservative egalitarian on the show also. She gave hints and statements of being much more progressive than many of those listening especially on US side of the pond. I hate to say it but this was a big waste of time.

[@poetmaggie1]

I think as a woman that the idea of wanting to be a priest, is a normal childhood daydream. As an adult I can recognize not only that we are not unequal but the responsibilities are very reasonable for our sex. They fit our natures both the male and the female roles. It is immature to be jealous of the opposite sex and their roles.

[@yourheinness9275]

Females have responsibility? What did God say those responsibilities are? To submit your self to your husband like the church submit to Jesus our saviour. Hey man/woman I didn’t make up the rules I just live by them and obey God!

[@viperstriker4728]

@@yourheinness9275 Lets just remove the Bible for a moment. Why do you think most executives are male? And why are most executives assistants female? If you look into the big 5 personality model and the split by gender you will start to see the natural correlation with skills and gender. Now of course CEOs are a secular thing and pretty flawed. They aren't equal with their assistants. But when the Bible lays out roles instead of fighting this natural thing and demanding women fill these roles, it redefines leadership. Keep in mind that the Bible calls man to lead as Christ was the head of the church..... Jesus died to set the example for the church, that's leadership. Imagine a CEO that would get fired covering for his assistants mistake, which that CEO be unequal? (Gender quotas a as sexist as the worst interpretations of the Bible. A society like ours that embraces those has no right to use the word equality).

[@zw2210]

20:13 Who do unmarried women ask?

[@yourheinness9275]

God. And wait on Him for an answer same as men have to do.

[@yourheinness9275]

We have an equal way to God’s presence He came to die for all of us.

[@mr.c2485]

@@yourheinness9275 The calvanists disagree.

[@viperstriker4728]

The letter is to a church where the norm was to be married very young. Our culture is very different so instead of taking word for word, look what lessons Paul was putting forth and how they can apply. If you think the idea is to avoid disruption. Maybe ask anyone after the fact. Many believe the verse refers to women not judging prophecy and leaving that up to the elders. In this case, maybe asking the elder one on one next chance. I will be the first to admit that I don't know on most of this. But I will recommend Mike Winger's series on women in ministry as he explains all the arguments pretty well. And I will caution to watch out for people that bring modern day politics into it.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@mr.c2485 Really? How?

[@mr.c2485]

Give them whatever they want.. Perhaps they can convince everyone of the truth of the existence of a deity.

[@martinploughboy988]

The evidence is that when women are allowed the leadership role in a denomination the denomination soon starts to accept other unscriptural positions.

[@MrSheepishLion]

I'm disappointed you'd have this be so one sided. Why didn't you have a complementarian on to state that position?

[@viperstriker4728]

Liz Cooledge Jenkins is a feminist activist and far left people don't like doing debates. Notice how she painted the other side as conservative right away. She doesn't care about God, this is about her politics.

[@yourheinness9275]

There are commands to us from God! He set up the hierarchy not us. Men didn’t want the burden of ruling over anyone. Hell we can’t even rule our own lives according to God’s commands. The woman was the one who was deceived not the man. The man ate because he loved the woman not the other way around! The man didn’t give the fruit to the woman to eat.

[@yourheinness9275]

We need to stop and ask what did God say and why?

[@betsalprince]

Stop and ask whether God said anything at all.

[@frosenzu8909]

​@@betsalprincethat can be said for science and everything else. Not just God

[@betsalprince]

​@@frosenzu8909 I don't believe that science is a living being capable of uttering words, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

​@@betsalprince 🐟 04. SCIENCE Vs RELIGION: The English word “SCIENCE” originates from the Latin noun “scientia”, meaning “knowledge”, from the stem “scire”, meaning “to know”. The English word “RELIGION” originates from the Latin verb “religare”, meaning “to join or unite”. It is the equivalent of the Sanskrit noun “yoga”, meaning “union (of the individual self with the Supreme Self)”. Therefore, “yoga” and “religion” are used synonymously in this chapter. The PHYSICAL sciences are an empirical approach to knowledge. They rely on experimentation, based on observation of the natural world. Observation is dependent on the senses, the senses are dependent on mind, and the mind is, in turn, observable by the intellectual faculty. The mind and intellect are phenomena arising in the perceived sense of self, or pseudo-ego (even if one considers that the mind and the intellect are functions of the brain), and therefore, all empirical evidence is gathered and recorded in consciousness. Similarly, the SOCIAL sciences explore facets of human society such as economics, anthropology, politics, and psychology in accordance with scientific principles. See Chapter 06 for a complete description of consciousness/Consciousness, and to understand the hierarchy of episteme mentioned above. It is patently impossible to establish the existence of anything outside of consciousness. How will one observe particles and their mechanics without the existence of consciousness? Clearly, consciousness is axiomatic for any statement of knowledge. The only fact one can know for sure is the certainty of existence, that is, the impersonal sense of an unqualified “I am” which precedes any cognitive process whatsoever. For example, if someone were to ask you "Do you exist?", you could never, in all honesty, respond in the negative, for that would be absurd! All that can be said or known about the world is a phenomenal appearance in consciousness. Anything else is speculation that can NEVER be definitively proven or demonstrated. However, this apparent subject/object duality is illusory, since Ultimate Reality is essentially monistic. So, for example, when a person looks at a tree, he or she is not actually seeing the tree in any direct sense, but interpreting an inverse image projected onto the retina of the eyes. Therefore, there is no real evidence (or at least, no conclusive proof) for the external world, APART from consciousness. Likewise, there are no sounds in the external world but solely within the mind, since vibrations do not produce an audible sound until they strike one’s eardrums, and the signal is conveyed to the brain. If the corresponding parts of the brain were to be artificially stimulated in the same manner, the experience of sight/sound would seem identical. That explains the Zen koan: “If a tree falls in a forest, and there is nobody present, does the falling tree produce a sound?” Refer, also, to the thought experiment known as “Schrödinger's cat”. Apart from the fact that we are unable to DIRECTLY perceive external phenomena, our sensory and cognitive facilities are far from perfect. Even if every human on earth experienced sounds and images in precisely the same manner, that does not prove that those perceptions accurately represent the world as it is, since other animals perceive the world quite differently than do humans. Some cognitive psychologists have demonstrated that all animals, including humans, have evolved not to perceive the external world completely objectively, but rather, have evolved to see the world in a way which promotes survival of their species. This is one explanation for the widespread belief in a Personal Creator God, since religious organizations (ideally) promote social cohesion (at least those which are not ultra-fundamentalist in nature). So, if most all the individuals in any particular nation follow the same religious tradition, the chances are that such a society will endure indefinitely. As alluded to above, it is imperative to mention that there are TWO main definitions of, or forms of, consciousness: the discrete consciousness associated with the brain of many species of animals (see Chapter 05), and Universal Consciousness (explained in Chapter 06). Perhaps a good analogy for the interplay between Universal Consciousness and the discrete consciousness found within the mammalian brain is that of a radio receiver (being the tangible hardware, akin to the physical brain) and radio waves (being intangible, akin to consciousness/Consciousness). So long as the radio receiver is in good working-order, it tunes-into the electromagnetic radiation spectrum. However, if the radio set breaks down, the radio waves themselves continue to modulate in space. So too, when the human brain dies, Universal Consciousness (“brahman”, in Sanskrit) continues indefinitely. Note, however, that this analogy is imperfect, since in reality, both the brain and the radio waves are contained within Infinite Awareness (“brahman”). This confusion of terminology is due to the fact that the English language does not include a single word for the concept of Universal Consciousness, due to monism/idealism being a rather esoteric philosophy in the Western World. As Lord Śri Krishna so rightly states in “Bhagavad-gītā”, the King of All Knowledge (“rāja vidyā”, in Sanskrit) is the Science of the Self. At the time of writing, material scientists are beginning to explore the “hard problem” of consciousness. Assuming homo sapiens society will survive for at least a few more centuries, there will come a time when the majority of professional scientists will acknowledge the primacy of CONSCIOUSNESS. Indeed, if humanity is to continue indefinitely, it is necessary for not only this concept to be imprinted on the human race but for it to be acted upon; that is to say, we humans must imbibe the principal tenets presented in teachings such as this Holy Scripture, “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, and actively follow them to a very large extent. The alternative is the extinction of not only humanity, but of most (if not all) biological life forms on Earth, due to environmental degradation, and immorality as a consequence of nihilism. Cont...

[@theweeflea]

I'm sorry but Unbelievable is heading on a trajectory since Justin left which is quite concerning. Apart from the format - basically one person putting forward one view without any real challenge - I am concerned that what is a UK based show seems to be more and more affected by the culture wars in the US church. When she spoke of 'an opposite sex marriage' without challenge the alarm bells were ringing. Is there any other kind of marriage?! I really tried to listen through to the end - but it was too much - bland, boring, one-sided and irritating....without nuance...

[@martinploughboy988]

I've been complaining about it for a while. It really has become very one sided.

[@betsalprince]

At least she's not condescending and obnoxious like a certain Christian guest in the past, David.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@betsalprince She was pretty condescending in her description of the opposing view.

[@betsalprince]

@@martinploughboy988 Ha, coming from you.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@betsalprince I do try not to be condescending, though it is hard when people insist on retaining disproven positions.

[@clayahearn5352]

Still waiting for the nuance

[@viperstriker4728]

I recommend Mike Winger's series on this. He handles it a lot better and goes really deep on each verse.

[@yourheinness9275]

This whole discussion should not even be an issue amongst people that claim they love our saviour. The Word of God is very clear on this.

[@karinkundig6244]

If women and men are exchangable, why push women's leadership? She seems quite confused. As a spiritually-minded and well-educated woman in a complementarian congregation, I have much influence without preaching or holding any offices. There is so much to do - why fight for power when the bulk of kingdom work is accomplished by daily taking up your cross and following Christ? Women, read and study diligently, then go and teach your kids and other women. Inspire the men in your life and church to more depth and a Christlike attitude by your salty and insightful conversation. You will change the world! And the enemy will never know how it happened. 😊

[@BFizzi719]

If they exchangeable, why would anyone discourage it either? It seems like the most rational position is to allow everyone, irrespective of gender, to pursue any roles and/or responsibilities that they desire.

[@MrCBTman]

This video’s title is hilarious condescending douchebaggery, lmao 😂. Like, gosh, I wonder why they feel that way, lol 🤔

[@yourheinness9275]

Because they have been fed a lie for so long that they can’t think of any other reason why!

[@iainrae6159]

As religion is a man made idea, no surprise blokes make the rules.

[@martinploughboy988]

Your religion is man made, but based on what God created.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

I don't think we should get heated or upset about trying to understand the Word of God as it is intended. Some of the ways people have interpreted the roles of men and woman can be quite painful to bear, possibly for men as well as women. Paul says a man's family life has to be perfect for him to be qualified as a church elder. He can't sin, his wife can't sin and his kids can't sin and they all have to be believers. I do not think by our understanding of that text from Paul that any man or woman is qualified to lead the church. We do put harder restrictions on woman. In some ways it seems like a blessing for women as a life of sacrifice for others is pleasing to the Lord, that doesn't make it easy. Plus, it is only pleasing to God if our hearts are in the right place while sacrificing our lives for others. It is a hard life. Without Jesus, no one would please God.

[@martinploughboy988]

No, Paul doesn't say a man's family life has to be perfect, he has to rule it well, not perfectly. Not one man would be able to lead a local church is that were so. As for the restrictions, compare how the man has to love his wife with her responsibility to him.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

@@martinploughboy988 , nothing works without love. We are all sinners. Being ruled by a sinner is not easy. The Church has failed in many ways. There's no such thing as a righteous man. All fall short of God's glory. No one is loving their spouse as God intended and certainly no man is loving his wife as Christ loves His Bride. We may come close, but not perfection. I can't wait for our Lord to return for us. This world has nothing to offer.

[@user-iz8np3vv4i]

@@PraiseYahforHeisHoly Jesus approved of a woman to be a Judge over Israel in the Old Covenant, with the authority to judge homicide cases. To believe that Jesus would strongly disapprove of a woman being an elder in the New Covenant, makes no sense whatsoever. This is all Paul. He was very much a man of his time and his pride. Paul gave himself the title of 'father', since he couldn't meet the qualifications of elder that he himself put forward. The title of 'father' was expressly forbidden by Jesus. And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven. -excerpt Matthew 23 -words of Jesus

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i , Paul called himself father? Where did you get that information? I do know that the early church had female deaconesses that were tortured by the Romans for being Christians. I think Satan has twisted our understanding over time and many have suffered for it.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@PraiseYahforHeisHoly The Church is the entire number of believers, it cannot fail. Christians, individually, fail.

[@zeno2501]

Weak video. Men lead, women follow. It is the natural order and it is plain to see.