Why Doctor Who's First Spinoff Succeeded

Torchwood was Doctor Who's first 'proper' spinoff, so how did 'Everything Changes' use the strengths of 'Rose' to establish the show?
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#DoctorWho #Torchwood #Review

[@HarboWholmes]

Support me on Patreon for Chad early access: www.patreon.com/harbowholmes

[@Gundam_JAY]

Hey nice reference to " the class " I thought it was a pretty cool series and had very nice character development.

[@nz8127]

Will you be reviewing the Revolution of the daleks?

[@nicolebee3283]

I really liked how Suzie got development later and wasn’t just completely forgotten

[@kanashimi4356]

Suzie's Stuff and the episode with OG Captain Jack are the only things I go back to Series 1 For really.

[@cyberemperor1435]

I totally agree

[@Necrophadez]

They keep killing Suzie.

[@PlanetNateGaming]

The episode They Keep Killing Suzie is probably the best episode of the whole show

[@RealBadGaming52]

i loved Suzie, wish shed stayed as i liked the actress back then.

[@XJoe360]

The 21st Century is when Everything Changes, and you’ve gotta be ready

[@hermiona1147]

I dont know it just sounds good

[@merlin8046]

And he was right 😅

[@sparkymist]

@@merlin8046 in more ways than one

[@Freak80MC]

To be fair he's right, in at least one way: Computers. Since Moore's Law (yes I know it isn't a law, just an observation) is probably going to end in the next decade, and so much of our technological advances can be put down to advances in computers, so by the 2030s if we don't find any new advancements in maybe material science to offset the fact that we can't shrink transistors anymore, basically our computing will ground to a halt and computers will become like watches, where you could buy one and know you could pass it to your kids and they could still use it. Computers will become like that, static and unchanging, except maybe the odd difference here or there. (though even when Moore's Law ends I still say we could then advance price instead of transistor size, like even if transistor's can't be shrunk anymore, doesn't mean that manufacturing can't be improved to lower the cost of the same sized transistor. So there is room for advancement there)

[@AndrewHalliwell]

@@Freak80MC transistor density isn't the be all and end all of computer science, y'know. Make systems and the software that runs on them more efficient. Even now, a lot is being handled by the cloud, that's likely to take the strain more and more too, resulting in less of a need for powerful processors locally. There's probably a dozen different paths today's tech could take that doesn't involve Moore.

[@misscattrap]

Torchwood was such an amazing discovery when I found out it existed

[@erinella]

"Who orders pizza under the name Torchwood?" "That would be me, I'm a twat." I love the jokes in Torchwood 😂

[@apanapandottir205]

When they ask the dead guy in the first EP what it's like to die and he says like "There is nothing....OH MY GOD, THERE IS NOTHING!" fucking kills me

[@whitemoonwolf13]

and then they ask owen the same question like they were hoping it would change

[@erinella]

When I think too hard on how Torchwood approaches life after death I get extreme anxiety. The idea of there being absolutely nothing but darkness triggers panic in me.

[@DriverHenryWho3245]

"kills me" I feel like that was an unintentional pun 😂

[@Venemofthe888]

I think it was very interesting to do spin offs like Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures and for a while the whoniverse existed without The Doctor being there showing he cant always save earth from the monsters. Its a shame Elizabeth Sladen died and that Torchwood kinda ran out steam and funding. Class tried to be a inbetween Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures. It didnt really work to well and wasnt advertised really well. Some people me included didnt even know it was on until after it finished. Its a shame theres probably no Spin-offs to really make anymore outside of audios because theres no real characters who really stand out to get them anymore. Some people think Torchwood could return after the last special but i dont see it happening tbh i just think it was a nod more than a hint

[@TheWolfXCIX]

Torchwood shouldn't come back, Children of Earth should have been the end with pretty much all the cast either moving on or dead. Gwen and Jack being back during a Doctor Who series is nice in theory but this current iteration of Who would ruin them so I hope it doesn't happen

[@Venemofthe888]

@@TheWolfXCIX i agree. I like how gwen was mentioned but i don't want to see her back i think the time has passed now that only audios set in the past can really work

[@fran_03]

It's such a shame they advertised Class so poorly. When I finally realised it existed I watched it and absolutely loved it, it was enough DW to be interesting but far darker and cooler. I'd love to have 2nd season, especially since the 1st ended on a cliffhanger (plus a darker viewpoint of the angels would've been awesome to see), but I don't think there's enough demand for it.

[@Venemofthe888]

@@fran_03 i think big finish is doing audios of class although I don't know if they are good or not

[@sir-mass3909]

@@Venemofthe888 The audios don't continue in from where class left off, they just add more adventures that the characters went on before the season finale, which is why I never bothered listening to them. I hope that the BBC do decide to do a second season of Class though, because it was really good

[@stephjovi]

In Germany (and additionally Austria because we watch German TV), they showed season 1 and 2 of new who in the afternoon for a short time. Enough of to get me hooked but barely anyone cared. Than much later on a completely different channel they started torchwood. It was quite popular. It was funny to find people online asking if it's ever explained who Jack is, why he's immortal. They had never heard of Doctor Who and had no idea its a spinn off

[@nivaneh1010]

I could only dream of that happening to me so then I get introduced to the original source material and begin another whole adventure

[@sinisterinspace]

I'm curious, which channels are you referring to?

[@stephjovi]

@@sinisterinspace Doctor Who was on Pro 7 December 2007 in March 2009 Torchwood started on RTL 2. By that time Doctor Who was not on German TV anymore. (I just googled the dates I did not remember them)

[@sinisterinspace]

@@stephjovi ahh thank you

[@HenryGK]

A full series review for Torchwood? Brilliant!

[@bobthesquirrel666]

Losing my mind at Owen being called "Floozy"

[@simdivya]

is he wrong though?

[@ChristopherM720]

Okay...I agree, I coughed at that too.

[@MikariPhantom]

I love Torchwood, and I feel Agents of SHIELD is a cool spiritual successor in a way, despite being set in a different universe.

[@smuu1996]

I'd really like it if you went through Torchwood the same way you went through the first three seasons of Doctor Who. It's really cool to see you analyze it so well.

[@HarboWholmes]

I will be doing so!

[@laurafox9669]

@@HarboWholmes This makes me INCREDIBLY happy, Torchwood imo is on par or even, at times, a little better than Doctor Who, the stories and characters just appeals way more to me! I love how you've done Doctor Who so far, your reviews are second to none!

[@RealBadGaming52]

@@HarboWholmes good, i hope you give season 3 and 4 good reviews considering how Darkand downright distubring season 3 and 4 are

[@andrewainsworth9246]

i dont understand how Chris Chibby went from head writer on an amazing dark gritty sci fi pseudo horror tv show to a mediocre at best show runner of a rapidly declining Doctor Who. makes no sense to me

[@NATHAN-gl9ns]

I think one of the main issues is that he's mentioned he's writing who for 8 year olds, so won't want to write just as dark/hard hitting stuff cos kids. That's probably the reason for orphan 55-he wanted an eight year old to get the message, hence the captain planet speach

[@infinitygames9317]

@@NATHAN-gl9ns Orphan 55 wasn't written by Chibnall. Your point is still somewhat valid, but there's a difference between being an executive producer and being the writer of an episode.

[@NATHAN-gl9ns]

@@infinitygames9317 ah my bad, keep forgetting that it wasn't

[@infinitygames9317]

@@NATHAN-gl9ns I still think that Chibnall needs to remember there are people over 8 in the audience so he needs to cut back on the exposition a lot. I just don't hold him accountable for the dialogue of Orphan 55.

[@NATHAN-gl9ns]

@@infinitygames9317 I know I just keep attributing him episodes he didn't write lol. Quite why he's think eight year olds would like the timeless children I don't know

[@demono6708]

saying shadowy organisation reminds me how funny it was when they had to call the police and tell them they were stuck in their secret base and needed help.

[@creed8712]

They’re shadowy but like the cops got the memo about them

[@dylannoneyabiz2426]

I mean they do drive around cardiff in conspicuous vans with TORCHWOOD stamped across them. And order their pizza under the name Torchwood. And by s2 they ask the public for help in finding the aliens they're tracking But like, it's funny and it works with the way Torchwood 3 is run, especially after Canary Wharf

[@blobfish5730]

Harbo is doing Torchwood videos now? Oh well, I guess everything changes

[@DanTheMan2150AD]

Bad joke. Didn’t laugh.

[@blobfish5730]

@@DanTheMan2150AD You are just jealous of my quick wit

[@DanTheMan2150AD]

@@blobfish5730 I suppose any of us could come up with a decent joke had we been plotting this from Day One.

[@blobfish5730]

@@DanTheMan2150AD Mate, I think your mind has gone Adrift, or at least broken into Fragments. Your brain needs a Reset.

[@DanTheMan2150AD]

@@blobfish5730 I suppose this really is the End of Days

[@SheevyBoi]

I love Torchwood-especially children of earth-because it shows us a different, more serious and grounded side of the Doctor Who universe.

[@nightowl8477]

Russell regrets using "fuck" this episode. He always made sure never to have a Doctor Who character like Jack or Martha swear, but in hindsight he felt the word was tonally wrong in the show from anyone.

[@nivaneh1010]

Martha never swore but the characters around her in Torchwood did lol

[@nightowl8477]

@@owen1994 - The Writer's Tale. Brilliant book Russell did, documenting his time in Who _while_ he was still involved in the show. It's like a live feed of emails.

[@shikarifox4337]

@@nivaneh1010 I'll be honest, when she was announced to be part of the second series, I was hoping she'd swear at least once in the several episodes she's there for...

[@nivaneh1010]

@@shikarifox4337 I don’t really care if she did or not it doesn’t change her character for me but some people are just like that and refuse to swear

[@eastenders4k251]

@@nivaneh1010 She did swear she once said "What the hell is that"

[@vickyotters9207]

What do you call a cat that owns a house? - A ho(meow)mer.

[@orangepizzaparty688]

Hey! He said he’s streaming later tonight and the puns are going to be there. I’ll make sure of it.

[@cassielipton7209]

I didn’t realize going into torchwood when that it was more mature than doctor who when I was a kid... this one episode, countrycide, scared the absolute shit out of me

[@smorgasbord9940]

“Next up is sex gas” Bill Cosby: First you had me curious, now you have my interest.

[@ashbridgeindustries]

"Why Doctor Who's First Spinoff Succeeded" Me: "K-9 and Company succeeded?"

[@DinosaurBytes]

Imagine, people in the Doctor Who universe actually remembering what Daleks look like...

[@PlanetNateGaming]

I know right they seem to forget the pepperpot shaped space nazi death machines almost immediately

[@maldon3659]

It's pretty much the same thing with most monsters on Doctor Who like if the Sycorax came back I bet no one in the Whoniverse would remember them from The Christmas Invasion

[@EmotionalVortex]

Torchwood definitely needs more love, can't wait to see your reviews for the entire series.

[@QuackTeamJames]

Given the tier list you're continuing through torchwood which is great, though I'm also hoping you'll cover the sarah jane adventures. Like you, I grew up with and have fond memories of the program, yet nobody seems to have given it good analytical reviews. Keep up the great work!

[@charliemaline223]

That's weird as hell, I started re-watching Torchwood half an hour ago and then this comes up on my subscriptions.

[@anidleteen]

*he knows*

[@hermiona1147]

Coincidence?

[@CyberDoctor-tc8tc]

Same here

[@renhey9979]

@@hermiona1147 it's the spirit of rtd

[@MariBZani]

ikr? Same happened to me, started re-watching on blu-ray, on my not smart tv, and next day it was all over my YT recommendations

[@ChrisKeziahHyde]

I'm glad you've started doing Torchwood reviews as it's a great series that either gets sidelined or forgotten about. The fact RTD decided to expand the Whoniverse by adding spin-off shows, demonstrates how much he wanted to show to succeed and how intricate he can make the Whoniverse be. Can't wait till you get to Captain John Hart those reviews will be a blast!

[@jdg9825]

Lol I did an essay on TV pilots last year and talked about how Rose, Everything Changes and Invasion of the Bane (all by RTD) are essentially the same episode with Rose/Gwen/Maria and the Doctor/Jack/Sarah Jane taking on the same role. Love them all tho. If it ain't broke

[@apanapandottir205]

The last 2 episodes of season 2 guts me every time. "...because you're breaking my heart."

[@whitemoonwolf13]

the show died for me when those two died. won't watch CoE and won't watch any revivals they try to do.

[@apanapandottir205]

@@whitemoonwolf13 CoE is great tho.

[@ollycoleman7418]

@@apanapandottir205 CoE was great but oh God it broke me.

[@barry1369]

Children of Earth is one of the greatest things to ever grace a television.

[@nivaneh1010]

I remember when everyone was watching it and they had no idea it was linked to Doctor Who

[@renhey9979]

I don't like miracle day

[@afropro5294]

@@renhey9979 ikr children of earth was the perfect ending to Torchwood imo

[@fullfiledprophecies]

can't wait til you get to children of earth so i can relive that PAIN AND ANGUISH again definitely think it's one of the whoniverses best stories.

[@orangepizzaparty688]

Yesssss finally I’ve been waiting for this

[@paddytheladdie]

Excellent analysis: really insightful, interesting and thorough. I can really see the hard work you put into your videos and that’s admirable. You’re one of my favourite Doctor Who (and now Torchwood) creators. Keep it up!

[@ItsMeHarry]

That Chibnall gun edit made me scream omfg

[@MadamMersive]

It was certainly scream worthy

[@uhhh6183]

Wait a series 1 tier list? You’re doing the whole series? Maybe even the other series’? Yusss!!! Get in there Harbo!

[@sinisterinspace]

Resurrection Gauntlet? Uhm, I believe you mean Risen Mitten.

[@lovescrona]

I love torchwood but one of my main gripes with it is how they rarely ever encounter any "good aliens". I feel like some more diversity in terms of that would have made the show a little better.

[@Rognik]

The big thing I remember Torchwood for is how Davies said that all the main characters would have a bisexual moment in the first series, which you can see when Owen sprays himself when the boyfriend confronts him. That's probably the only time I actually liked that truck pulled in the entire series.

[@Squicx]

Everytime a REALLY dark scene comes on and it puts me in a deep emotional state, I always remember to myself that even the most giddy and lovable of Doctors like the 7th Doctor or 2nd Doctor has to deal with off screen sometimes. I have to keep reminding to myself that Torchwood took place in the same universe as The Kandyman from The Happiness Patrol.

[@wickwebb4690]

man this makes my brain buzz with how much I really like torchwood. It’s all I could’ve wanted from a spin off honestly

[@arelyvivanco6114]

Love your Channel! It´s so hard to find people to talk about DW in my country and of course it´s harder to find someone to talk about Torchwood, I struggle to understand english but your diction make it easier for me. I´m so glad I found this channel

[@mikeharvey2129]

Where do you live, if I may ask?

[@arelyvivanco6114]

@@mikeharvey2129 Yes of course I'm from Mexico 🇲🇽

[@mikeharvey2129]

@@arelyvivanco6114 Ah. Do you watch mostly British tv or is it just anything related to the Whoniverse and the rest is your local TV?

[@frazzlesreviews5379]

This was a brilliant review. I reviewed this for my channel recently and watching your video made me notice several things I missed. Fantastic work and I look forward to the rest of the reviews.

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

As someone who doesn't really like Torchwood is have to say this story is good.

[@stormyguy]

Wait. There’s a tier list. YESSSS I’m excited for the children of earth review

[@EddieM1994]

Gwen, that's why you write your top-secret notes on a shadowy, technologically superior organization by HAND.

[@Chlo255]

I loved Torchwood...rewatched it recently and it still holds up, especially seasons 2 and 3. It’s much more of a character-based drama than a sci fi show (at least compared to Doctor Who in my opinion) but you really get attached to the characters.

[@thesetwoteengirls]

i love torchwood, i’m so excited to see you’re going to be analyzing it!!

[@nytesla_punk3327]

My favourite extra detail is the talk on top of the Millennium building, jack had with every torchwood member, and each one of them thought it was tailored to them.

[@Dr3Mc3Ninja]

0:57 That explains James Marsters as Capt. John Hart. Russell was clearly a Spike man, and I agree. I love Torchwood so much. My favourite spin-off.

[@jpm42cartown]

I never even realized this was his first on screen revival thing. Since I had seen all of Doctor Who first it never dawned on me. That adds SO much to this episode

[@timeofthewhoviansunited1504]

I'm so glad you're doing Torchwood as well! Absolutely brilliant analysis of an excellent introduction to the best Spin Off show. I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on the rest of the episodes! - Corey

[@mastercreative6752]

How cool that you are also covering Torchwood on this channel! I only saw it for the first time a few months ago during lockdown (where I had the time to watch all 4 seasons), but instantly loved it. Will you do a review of each episode now?

[@HarboWholmes]

Yep, doing all of Series 1 over the coming weeks

[@mastercreative6752]

@@HarboWholmes nice, looking forward to it 👍🏻

[@tatumgeorge5917]

I love this channel sm omg you deserve like a million subscribers bro

[@VeracityLH]

SO glad you're reviewing Torchwood!

[@maxxc9155]

More 👏 Torchwood 👏 reviews👏 please

[@neilcoatham]

I always like to think that the gauntlet is the other one that Rassilon had. One gifts life the other takes it away

[@Thesquiggleman]

Been waiting for torchwood videos for so long!

[@HiperPivociarz]

It's hilariously insulting that Sarah Jane's first spin-off had her as second billing to the dog. Maybe RTD put him in that black hole cupboard as punishment?

[@elijahgames192]

2 years ago Me and my brother watched the first episode of torchwood, and both of us squeamed at the weevil biting out that dudes neck, and sometimes we remind each other about it.

[@libbyford6765]

love torchwood and love your interpretation! cant wait for more reviews of this amazing spin off

[@timeofthewhoviansunited1504]

Same

[@jameseiner]

Didn't really like that they explained jack's name with [SPOILERS] him just stealing the name off of some actual soldier back in WW2 who died and therefore didn't need the name anymore. Kinda took away from this nice nod to the main show that you mentioned here 08:16

[@stormyguy]

I was so hoping you’d talk about it😁😁

[@bmvthemoviefanatic7282]

"Series 1 Tier List"? So we getting reviews for the whole series?! EPIC!

[@eastenders4k251]

Don't forget the outfits aswell it made it extremely satisfying and more darker how gothicly dressed people were back then. the style, the background and theme tracks - very important - take Martha for instant i enjoy Martha's series a lot more because of how beautiful the soundtrack was to her style, background and storyline it's very noir which should come back to the show industry.

[@DanTheMan2150AD]

Can't believe you won't talk about the chad BBV smh. Also Owen is best boi.

[@fadikhoory5350]

what bbv?

[@garret8856]

@@fadikhoory5350 u don't wanna no lmao

[@greglinks]

Owen really is the best

[@alexanderbridges8442]

I liked how they referenced Excalibur in the first episode of series 2

[@fire_phoenix04]

I love torch wood and desperately want it to come back

[@jpm42cartown]

I'm so excited to watch this. I just watched torchwood for the first time last month and loved it so so much. Watching Sarah Jane now and man I want more torchwood

[@otopenyCooper]

Loved this video through and through! Torchwood is one of myy favourite shows, close to rivaling Doctor Who itself! There isn’t a season I dislike and I actually recently rewatched season 1. Looking forward to the rest of these very very much!

[@danielpurdy9328]

Ngl. I would love something like this for SJA's pilot

[@timeofthewhoviansunited1504]

I'm doing a video on that soon :D

[@ItsMeHarry]

Torchwood videos now, I see? '21 is clearly where everything changes

[@DriverHenryWho3245]

Rewatched this episode yesterday. Love it!

[@mathieuleader8601]

the recent special signalled a returned or a reboot of Torchwood

[@jamesattenbourgh]

Don’t get your hopes up. It signaled more a spin off show with Bradley and Tosin.

[@MalcolmWolf]

@@jamesattenbourgh Well both actors left because they are busy doing other acting work, so I doubt they have time for spin offs

[@0llieWells]

I wouldn’t be surprised if we see Ryan and Graham come back in Big Finish audios/ maybe the odd episodes here and there/ for Yaz’s finale As for Torchwood. We can only hope!

[@mathieuleader8601]

SJA was orignally tooled as the Doctors childhood

[@-haclong2366]

18:32 I'm using that image to make a Chibnall meme.

[@KarlPilkingtonNo1]

How can you say Suzie wasn't evil? She killed people just so she could research the resurrection gauntlet. That's how little value she put on human life. For me, that's evil.

[@ChristopherM720]

I was a big Torchwood fan, and this episode was the hook (and got us by sex gas). The actress for Gwen is fantastic (as seen in Broadchurch 2 and some BBC Wales shows), and she is so relatable. The fact she isn't a Hollywood beauty (the teeth alone makes her feel Welsh...and I say that as a Welshman). Suzie did make the episode excellent with that ending. It wasn't an A, but as series launches...pretty darn good. Too bad we didn't get more series with the main cart...or more episodes at all.

[@afropro5294]

cant wait to see the owen 3 parter from season 2 reviewed, really redeems his character. (reset, dead man walking and a day in the life )

[@nicolebee3283]

Will you be doing a DTD on Cyberwoman when you get there?

[@HarboWholmes]

Yes

[@jessica23claire]

K9 and Company is really worth checking out. I only say this because the DVD commentary has Elisabeth Sladen, John Leeson and a couple of others making sarcastic comments for the entire episode. It's GLORIOUS.

[@jackwarner4915]

Great vid well done 👏🏼

[@fortunate4260]

I really need to watch this now

[@niek024]

season 3 is absolutely amazing!

[@Lunabyes]

I would love for you to do some other Torchwood reviews! I love the show and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

[@jleigh329]

I'm glad your finally doing "Torchwood" reviews! I'm so happy! :) Also "Torchwood" was the show that initially got me into "Doctor Who" (well NuWho). And I just loved everything about it. I mean, yeah sure, sometimes the show can be a bit corny and stuff (but Russel T. Davies was always somewhat known to be corny with his writing, at least on "Doctor Who". So I don't know why that would surprise anyone.). Another thing I find weird is that the "Day One" of "Torchwood" has a "Sex Alien" as it's main villain in the episode. Why does that surprise anyone? I mean sure, it is a little bit weird, but it is a show involving aliens, sex, and violence. So an alien that incorporates pretty much all of that stuff doesn't seem that weird to me. 😕🤷‍♀️ But whatever. Also am I the only one who loves/prefers the 1st Series of "Torchwood" to the 2nd Series (Not counting "Children of Earth")? I thought it had some great episode's. But to each his/her own I guess. And lastly one of my dream top fictional jobs to this day...is to work in the ORIGINAL "Torchwood" Hub (of Series 1 &2, and a little of 3). Just saying. And as unpopular opinion as this is, I would actually prefer that instead of being The Doctor's companion.

[@jdawson01]

Just finished watching it for the first time very impressed with the quality it had as a spinoff. My my word Children of Earth is outstanding TV and scarily similar to current events in certain aspects (miracle day also).

[@steve-0493]

Sex gas.... LMAO,that sounds so...idk..lost my train of thought right after they show the pic of the team...damn I miss Owen,and Tosh..✌️😔

[@JLee-ws4dl]

I personally think a spinoff based around the Time Agency could be really interesting

[@eeveemaster8902]

One word describes why this show succeeded Jack

[@ghostface_tardis]

Just wish they show would return. For me I prefer the darker side of jack. And I think Gwen Cooper is one of the best female characters in the whole Doctor who universe.

[@NessysSanctuary]

I really enjoyed this. I really miss this, I wonder if i can get this on DVD

[@Murrlin27]

Doctor Who. Torchwood. Hotrod Cow.

[@mathieuleader8601]

Excalibur was the original name for Torchwood

[@thedoctor1263]

Can you please do Sarah jane adventures next I love that show

[@elliotttalksf1825]

Its a shame Torchwood got killed off when it did. One of the few shows that should have lasted longer than it did.

[@merlin8046]

Gosh I loved all series

[@Companion92]

I need to rewatch this

[@bicko_07]

Are we getting reviews on all of Torchwood?

[@HarboWholmes]

Yes

[@lucypreece7581]

I recently watched all of Torchwood because they are all on iPlayer and i really enjoyed them. I was too young for them when they were first broadcast cus they are more adult and stuff and i was like 9 but like now I really enjoy the series. It's cool and very actiony. Children Of Earth was dark but brilliantly written and acted. Miracle Day. interesting concept, fell flat on the execution somewhat..

[@Renegade2786]

19:09 - 19:11 It seem like Vamp and Captain Jack have a lot in common.

[@matthewhowe4104]

Forget the dr who school of running down long halls this is the torchwood school of standing on rooftops

[@jmace2424]

It’s hard to recognize Varma when she’s not standing around talking about Dorne this and Dorne that.