Why Does Peachy Hate Kill Team?

[@GlassHalfDead]

Just a note, I recorded this BEFORE we knew Hivestorm was coming, so I'm not speculating on the next edition at all here! Do you like my channel and are pretty hype on wargaming in general? Come and chat in my channel's chilled out casual Discord: discord.gg/6VRyQTCpPu And if you're REALLY cool, support me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/GlassHalfDead

[@LiamDempsey40k]

Appreciate you watching the video Andy, and appreciate the shout out 💪🏻💪🏻

[@GlassHalfDead]

Just watching through your latest with Mikey. Keep up the good work!

[@TabletopImpulse]

Kudos to you for actually reaching out to Mr Peach for a reply and publicising it. Classy. Really disagree on the idea that games should just be reskins of other games. I like to play different games with different levels of complexity depending on my mood. But it's a thought I have heard before. I guess if you love the 40k setting and casual skirmish games you might be grumpy that sigmar happens to be the setting of the casual game.

[@sinisterplank3113]

I relate to this, I adore the 40k setting and how the kill teams are put together, but I enjoy warcry gameplay a lot more.

[@Miscast]

I love Mordheim, I've been in many Fantasy campaigns, narrative is nearly the only way I play now. So I wanted to love Frostgrave, but I don't like the swingyness leading to to frequent bad narrative moments. Its cool when the little guy kills the big guy against all odds once in a blue moon, but when those moments are all the time because things are too random, I can't get invested in the narrative. Plus no game licenses to publish fan content for it is a dated mentality, and indie games need community to thrive. So I won't touch Stargrave because its a reskin and that's okay other cool scifi skirmish to play. As much as I would love a warhammer world where Lizardmen can canonically rockup with guns to fight some Space Marines like what was described to me as a kid, I appreciate games having their own unique reasons to play them that isn't just aesthetics.

[@andrewmorris550]

It's worth observing I suppose that most people's experience of Warcry - including I think Peachys - is the randomised battle plan card drawing experience that can generate interesting stories but also complete non-games when the randomised mission generation element throws up something weird. It's seemingly the less popular way to play, but there are symmetric balanced matched play missions, there are tournaments, there is a perfectly functioning if small competitive scene. It's a good clean underlying ruleset and you can employ that ruleset in competitive gaming if you sort out the rest of the environment around it (primarily feeding it balanced missions).

[@earnestwanderer2471]

Glass Half Dead is morphing into Samwise Gamgee. ”Just trimming the verge, Master Frodo!”

[@readylockenroll]

Wish 40k would be alternating activations.

[@augustmcbride]

I just use house rules and kinda copy Bolt Action.

[@Colorcrayons]

It does. Its called "I use my awesome 40K models to play the superior 'Deadzone' game design with". Viola! Alternating activation that feel VERY much like you are playing a sci fi version of warcry. It's the most fun I have had using my 40K dollies for anything. Or rather, every game is miniature agnostic if you have a modicum of creativity and a willingness to appreciate a good game for more than the dollies they sell to play it with. Nobody has to put up with poor miniature wargame design in this day and age.

[@HandsWithLegs]

It’s a shame 40K is so shackled to it’s decades of past versions, not doing alternating activations and sticking to d6 really hold the game back from being the best version of itself

[@fullarmourtracksuit4023]

I can’t relate to this at all. My group picked up the Kill team rules easily, and I can’t remember a game I didn’t have fun in. I came from 40k and have no intention of going back.

[@TheSixYardBox]

I think you're missing the main argument. You e just said you guys came from 40k, which is masssively complex and over complicated with stupid primaries secondaries a ton of special abilities, auras, rules and no end of other stuff that's hard to remember. Of course Jill team would be quick to pick up for you. Peachy was talking about it as someone new to playing these kind of games.

[@axanax2534]

Stargrave was 100% supposed to be Frostgrave in space, which is what people wanted. I certainly can't fault Joseph McCullough on the reskin. Operation: Last Train is also a sci-fi skirmish game by Joe and is a completely different engine from Frodtgrave. It's built with the intention of Solo & Co-op and completely scenario driven l. It's a terrific game. This two was also reskinned and advanced into his latest game called Deathship One, which is also a solo/coop sci-fi skirmish game. 😅

[@johnbeaudoin7820]

An insightful video, and a thoughtful interaction between you and Mr. Peach. Well done to you both.

[@bradp6452]

Kill Team just has to many special rules. I actually think the compendium level teams hit the right balance.

[@cyclone8974]

Not sure how he forgot that Age of Sigmar doesn't have toughness like 40k does. That's a pretty big difference.

[@cyagen9782]

Where is my double Hello?

[@GlassHalfDead]

We ALMOST have sound capability back!

[@d-rex7043]

I think you 'hit the nail on the head' when you said that kill team isn't a beginner game. To me, kill team (besides being a skirmish game, in it's own right) is an alternative to Big 40k, for people who don't have the time and/or will/money to pour infinite money, prep and study into the game. I like both, and for beginner fun, there's Combat Arena, Space Marine tbh and Darktide: all of which I have for playing with the fam.

[@HeyU808]

First conservatory now garden???❤

[@Gryvan415]

I like how dmg is in kill team vs warcry exalted 3/4 for kt and 1/4 wc I don't like that I can't kill without just rolling crits.

[@delinquentgod]

Damn you Glass.... *buys a Warcry starter set* you already got me into Kill Team. My family need to eat you know!

[@gotdemthangs434]

I am a huge fan of all the changes coming to KT. I won't ruin it, but I think people are going to enjoy it a lot more than the current.

[@majortom7186]

7:26 I wonder if Peachy ever played Warcry v1 with someone who truly understood the rules and was playing the game. My guess is no.

[@marekhrnciarik7681]

I love warcry due to it's simplicity and still great competitiveness. I also like killteam as 40K skirmish game. But I rly wish they would adopt movement form kill team, also also the whole line of sight/cover/obscure, make it more simple to make games faster, i hate to do 3 different measurments on kill team to know if i can attack someone or not and how. when we play games on killteam and maybe true is that it's due to not us play that much, the most time we spend is actually figuring out who i can attack.

[@alt4g]

Kill team is one of the weirdest games that GW created, while the other games are becoming more streamlined and simple, kill team stays a very heavy ruleset with depth on par with a full army game. Even with the new edition, they're keeping the complexity

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I think you can present Kill Team in a more casual way, to introduce the really basic concepts to the new player. I certainly have. I play both Warcry and KT21 and find KT to be superior. Why? Two features... conceal/engage orders and lack of team building. The, more or less, fixed lists adds to the game balance.

[@ObsceneSuperMatt]

Especially with PvE mode coming, so you fight together against npcs as an introduction!

[@theanimaster]

And it’s fair - love list building? There’s still 2018 KillTeam out there. Don’t love list building? 2021 KT. Havent gotten into KT and don’t care for list building? Then skip 2021 and wait for 2024.

[@HandsWithLegs]

I think the way that KT handles special abilities for units is also a big reason it’s better. All the units in warcry are boring until you spend resources to make them do something cool, where is warcry they abilities just work and are always on. KT units are just more interesting

[@danajadzia3390]

Wondering if you can provide some examples of KT’s “narrative in rules”. Are you referring to core rules or team stats & abilities?

[@janikd7948]

Cool video, but what are those shapes u point at in the thumbnail?

[@Zabzim]

The worst part of kill team

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

@@Zabzim exactly

[@Highlaw]

Personally the 1st Killteam revamp excited me, it even got a completely new-to-40K friend of mine to buy a couple of Tau boxes. It was the perfect intro game to get very few points/€€ into the table and play something with depth (as opposed to the nothing-burger that is current Combat Patrol) and a perfect segway to, in time, build up to the first 800-1000 points of actual 40K, or simply continue getting whichever small discounted purshases from other factions. Once Killteam got its 2nd edition we both instantly lost interest. Bespoke teams completely ruin it for me, they're way more expensive, way rarer outside USA/UK markets, and barely have a use in 40K (if we're lucky) so there's not even forward aspirations in playing Killteam, Killteam itself is the end-goal and a resource vampire that pushes newcommers away from ramping up to the first 1000 points in 40K. Not to mention the whole "Lego" aspect of mixing normal boxes/units for a team is now gone. Although this is secondary, the alienating rules bloat didn't help either.

[@DMDoherty1]

WarCry is really just beer and pretzels fun. I play with my friends and enjoy the models but sadly it is shite for making sure your matches feel narratively cohesive. Everybody just Allies in the most powerful shit regardless of how little it makes sense and the balance goes out the window. Additionally, 6 dice determining which models get to do cool stuff this turn and which ones are just going to be stat sticks - sucks. It just sucks. Then throw on all the randomness that makes some matches pointless from the start. It took a great idea of having a lot of cool possible matches and it's just a shit-tornado of random garbage.

[@thrillimanjaro]

Warcry is great for casual fun, but competitively it's a mess. Games can be lost before the first activation due to mission types and your division of shield, hammer, dagger, etc.

[@balemoran3168]

I would have a look at the event packs, great close games to be had.

[@Colorcrayons]

That's because it is a Narrative game being forced by folks to be competitive. And while a competitive mindset has made the game a tighter design than before, it also quite clearly illustrates that it is a narrative game, and not a competitive one.

[@Mabufu381]

@@Colorcrayons i mean id argue that about all of wargaming in general. Its always been a casual narrative experience first and foremost, and its only recently that the community - who while in the minority of worldwide hobbyists, are the majority of content creators/online voices - have pushed it to be a competitive game in spite of the fairly shoddy balance and player experience when trying to play at “a high level”.

[@HandsWithLegs]

Fully agree on the losing before the game starts is an issue, but I think it extends all the way back to the list building. It’s super easy to lose before you even get to the table because you built a bad list, and I love that kill team tries to remove that as an issue and start everybody on a level where they can always compete

[@andrewmorris550]

@@thrillimanjaro per my other comment, I've only ever had this experience with the randomised battle plan generation. Theres a very different experience on offer with proper balanced missions. Worth giving it a go...

[@BaronElBardo]

The problems with the rules of KT2 are: 1-Obscuring (which will get out next season) 2-The constant faq to re-explain the rules. They are not as hard to understand as it appear. 3-KT has evolved from an Introductory wargame to his whole game. All the special miniature rules are written at the sheet while you can find fan-made abridged rules which helps with the awful edition of the core book.

[@Riddler_von]

My best friend an OG role player said last week… Hey there’s a new edition of dungeons and dragons…. I said who cares…. Rules are rules but true gaming is your best buds that you want to destroy on the table top and after he chucks his dice though the basement window …. That then…. Then you know it was a good day…

[@Riddler_von]

Yes I liked my own post. Wha cha gonna do…

[@Riddler_von]

If GW wants the rest of my money then release new BFG and make me play space to epic to 40K to kill team that’s a campaign bitches (pardon my French)

[@Riddler_von]

Melee is the toughest part of any table top game Original RPGs didn’t need miniatures. And combat was many pages of intricacies or just roll dice scream when you got a natural 20 for double damage. I want to play in the genre that I bought all the miniatures for. We will tweak the rules

[@Pokephantom]

I would def love a lifted up warcry

[@reubenmccallum3350]

Wasn't the Kill Team designer the same guy as Warcry? Sam Pearson?

[@AncientWyrm1775]

Different strokes for different folks i guess. Personally I love KT and think WarCry is overly simplistic and boring, lol.

[@killteamken5997]

Off to check out Peachy's chan.

[@martinhammond5979]

The second the design team stop reinventing the wheel and changing stuff for the sake of it, they will all be out of jobs!

[@alexs7670]

I wanted to like kill team but it's just really biring for what it is. I would rather play 2000 points of 40k. And that's not because I'm a bigger fan of 40k per se. It's just that the time investment for a full game of 40k is similar to that of killteam, and the payoff for 40k, for me, is bigger.

[@RandyTheSavage5150]

I don't like KT at all but I do like Warcry. I find the mechanics of KT clumsy and overly complicated. Warcry allows more freedom of list building which still feels balanced. I also find the missions and twists in Warcry fun.

[@NeoNaiche]

Andrew’s out here causing: “SHOTS FIRED” against Peachy! 😜😝🤪

[@yoannleclerc-desjardins3487]

I completely agree! Warcry should definitely take the combat rules from KT! It’s so much more interactive.

[@heretical_hobbyist]

Glass Half Garden

[@Riddler_von]

Ya… as an old-ish gamer Mostly played dnd wanted space dnd. Was working on it… Then Rogue Trader came out. My high school gaming buddies found their own favourites and we all had a complete system that the rest of us didn’t have. Now I collect 40K and screw the rest of you. No but seriously I don’t game for the rules… I play the campaign I’ve built for everyone to enjoy

[@christophermiller8381]

Kill Team isn't exactly what I'd call fun. I keep trying, but there's never been a moment that was more than "if this goes right, I'll definitely score a VP"

[@r3dcoat397]

Very cool guy

[@Panta8472]

dang... 4k views on yt personality vids in a day 1k on lore vids in a week..

[@theTemplar08]

I quite enjoyed quilting with the rules from white dwarf 287 US edition. I didn’t play a whole heck of a lot of it, but it was so much simpler. I think it was also in the fourth edition rulebook which I never owned. Look I enjoy all the terrain and I agree those original rules would’ve needed a lot of balancing. But the idea that my 500 points or so could go up against your 500 points. You weren’t allowed to take any heroes you got some type of captain or something , otherwise the units were just as they were in the codex

[@jamess405]

Meh all just opinions it’s all good for different reasons

[@Painttrenchcrusade]

Warcry is an easy to play but way to easy aka no real competetive play. It is also one if GWs least performing games

[@HappyDuude]

Least performing? The sets still sell out quick enough

[@Colorcrayons]

@@HappyDuude Exactly. But they aren't "Killteam sold out in minutes" quick. Which makes them a "sad trombone" sound to most people. Warcry still exists BECAUSE of its good rules. Killteam still exists DESPITE its poor rules. Its all about the dollies for 40K.

[@dothatshi]

No real competitive play? Bro stop it with the cap LMAO

[@simonbergeron2520]

Warcry is super competitive imo , its just got a lower skill floor

[@Kingofdahobos]

Last thing I care about in my wargames is content creator drama. I'll be back when there's anything of value to talk about

[@edwardclay7551]

Ironically I loved kill team 2018, but didn't engage with the now previous edition of kill team. I loved the design of all of the bespoke kill teams. Appreciated the compendium but never bought into the edition. However, the solo/co-op elements of modern kill team I find compelling. So I will watch it carefully.

[@arob184]

Mordheim is the best game. Tried warcry wasn't for me frostgrave isn't for me either not a fan of it. I like a game that is dead but has a great community and gw aren't involved.

[@MekBoooooi]

New Ed coming has no Deathwatch, Terminators, Crisis suits, NO LIST BUILDING...I'm going back to KT18, which also has Snikrot!!

[@theanimaster]

It’s comments like this that keep me holding on to my complete collection of KT2018 books… I invested heavily in 2018, moderately with 2021… and now that 2024 is coming… I dunno. The solo and collaborative thing has me suckered.

[@fatal-flaw10]

This is sarcasm right?

[@HandsWithLegs]

At least go play the one page rules version, kt18 was a mess of a game, take off the nostalgia goggles

[@TheSixYardBox]

40k could easily be fixed by going back to 4th Ed. Like even when they brought out the complicated city fight rules, the game was still enjoyable and quick to learn for new players. Best edition they ever did. It's been a hot mess since 6th edition and apart from the minor postivr of 8th, it's been utter garbage since then. Kill team was a nice change from that till they wrecked it with this latest edition

[@yayo3879]

Kill Team sucks! Too game-y.

[@djowalsen]

Yeah. Why can't I just shake my model, make a pew-pew sound and score a point?

[@yayo3879]

@@djowalsen Tabletop wargames are best when they're about simulating fantasy battles and not playing strategy cards and other video game styled rules bloat. The 1st edition of Necromunda literally mogs nu Kill Team into the dirt and then some.

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

@@yayo3879 You do not have to use the tac ops or stuff like that.

[@tomasv8732]

L take on 40k, they already did that, and the rules suck. My opinion is they should go back to 5th edition and dont bloat the rules

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

9th was a buffet and it was awesome. if 5th edition or whatever had the armor sides and templates believe me if my hyper competitive gaming family were asses in 9th 5th would be even more of a nightmare.

[@tomasv8732]

@@viewtifuljoe4412 Imagine not having the game based around gotchas and rules that make sense, watch Old Warhammer Was Beautiful by deadlifts for the dark gods, explains just how terrible the rules of today are

[@Zabzim]

Warcry is also dead! Long live 4th edition kill team.

[@Colorcrayons]

How is it "dead"? It has gotten just as much support as KT has, with the exception (thankfully) of GW design focusing hard on the meta.

[@Zabzim]

@@Colorcrayons GW unhooked Warcry from AoS. Which is a big indicator that GW wasn’t to kill the system vie stealth. To be honest I think we’re going in the direction of a Mordheim 2 which makes warcry surplus to requirements.

[@effindave6909]

Yes, let's create more tourists... because that worked out oh so well for marvel and star wars didn't it?

[@Colorcrayons]

The answer to the question posed by the video is: "Because he is a man of honor, class, and impeccable taste." It's just an objectively better game that which respects the time you have. You don't have to agree. Its okay to be wrong.

[@HandsWithLegs]

Warcry is a great game, but to me it’s a much less interesting game. Less interesting choices, less interesting units, less interesting weapons. It doesn’t work at all for the fantasy that kill team is trying to creat. If you want sci-fi warcry go play one page rules firefight

[@Colorcrayons]

@@HandsWithLegs Nah. The accurate sci-fi Warcry analog is Deadzone. Though still not quite as simple as warcry, which works in Deadzone's favor really. I wouldnt want sci-fi ported into warcry anyways, simply because ranged weaponry is very much not the main focus at all of warcry, and this fundamental design caveat prevents it from a direct reskin.

[@NerveriosNZ]

f off kill team is a beginners game. warcry is also an beginners game. Only watch you for your kill team content which is great. Peachy should stick to painting vids

[@fatal-flaw10]

That's some mind numbing stuff from people I'd expect better from. If kill team was a reskin it wouldn't be anywhere near as successful. Or good. Warcry isn't a bad game, and correctly stated it's very easy to get into, but it's much shallower and extremely messy when you add all the sigmar factions. It's way to random, swingy, and overly reliant on rolling nat 6's. Sadly some people are just allergic to complexity and mental stimulation, and need to dump on games with such features.

[@viewtifuljoe4412]

That is why I do not feel bad for those that complain about 10th who were the same that complain about 9th edition.

[@theanimaster]

For a second there I thought you were talking about Uncle Adam and not Peachy lol. 😅

[@HandsWithLegs]

Yeah uncle adam’s comments have been truly baffling

[@GlassHalfDead]

Tabletop Minions not liking a game and talking bad about it isn't exactly surprising. In fact, everything I've watched of his tends to be that, so it's not really noteworthy. Whereas Peachy tends to be much more positive in general and so his dislike of KT is interesting to explore :)