Why DRM Encryption on ATSC 3.0 Is Bad

[@microcolonel]

No matter how much it doesn't work, the industry just keeps trying DRM.

[@jordanwardle11]

Because they want people to think it does, so that people think that they can't have an alternative

[@Kitch-w3h]

I watched a video on GeoHot and Sony yesterday. Funny how companies still keep trying to fuck over its own customers and they never learn 🤣🤣 execs are idiots

[@chetapace79]

It feels like they want us to pirate everything

[@jameskilrain9350]

​@@jordanwardle11Bingo.

[@Chris-tf7gi]

liked. subscribed. (ham radio operator here.) Please keep screaming this. Broadcasters know exactly what they are doing with DRM. We're in the process of getting screwed.

[@jpvoodoo5522]

Yes. They haven't said it yet, but eventually they will convince antenna users to pay for local programming by subscription with commercials and get both advertising and subscription revenue. They will back off DRM until they can get rid of atsc 1.0 with a sunset. Then they will reimplement it again and turn the screws. You'll either subscribe for a streaming channel or subscribe for over the air. Both will have commercials. It will require internet service. Does that sound like the plan to you?

[@soulnull]

I will say this much.. I was quite excited about the improvements ATSC3 brought, but after their very consumer-unfriendly moves with DRM, I no longer care. I will continue on with the buggy creaky atsc1. Hey ATSC board, you do realize that the *majority* of people bootstrapping adoption of your new standard are the types that wouldn't appreciate this very much, right? Like, did you plan to shoot yourselves in the foot just to cement your place into failed tech history? Because most of the early adopters of a new broadcast standard aren't going to play these games. You've ensured yourself hdradio/am stereo status with your greed. What a shame to see such a well thought out update to a rather poor standard getting sandbagged like this. I *truly* was excited to finally get off ATSC1, but you tipped your hand on your greedy intentions too soon, and the man behind the curtain has been exposed. Brilliant job.

[@kakd1870]

this is likely intended to corral people to paid streaming services. Your distain is a feature, not a fault to them.

[@stapedium]

Yup. They don’t care how many people watch broadcast. They just want to be able to force cable to keep paying them to carry the same signal they send out ota.

[@milohoffman274]

The industry killed ATSC 3.0 all on their own. Who saw that coming? I thought it would be because of consumers, but the industry decided to kill it on their own.

[@zues121510]

It's as if every large media corporation WANTS you to pirate their content.

[@ordinary_average_guy]

I have no stake in this game but here is the way I understand it: Originally $ was earned by tv networks by selling advertising. Then, when EVERYONE in the country had cable OTA TV networks made BIG $ (even more than what they were getting from advertisers) selling broadcast rights for local channels to cable companies who then passed that broadcast fee on to consumers. They aren't happy bc now that everyone is "cutting the cord" they are losing all the $ from cable companies AND when people stream AD FREE content (without paying for that right) they get NOTHING. So now they are trying to re-gain control of OTA content by using DRM encryption. You would think, why would they want to prevent viewers from watching their advertisers, right? The DRM allows them to (#1) ensure commercials can't be skipped and (#2) setting an expiration on programming allows them to update to new relevant ads on old content when it is rebroadcast. This is why the "Free" streaming apps are promoted...at least they can make $ off advertisers again. It beats getting NOTHING when people use side loaded apps to watch content ad free the next day. So, they are either forcing us to watch commercials (earning $ from ads) or making us pay for the ad free apps...smart on their part, after all it is a business. It sucks in a way for us, the consumer but I understand it.

[@AshtonSnapp]

If it’s against the law to restrict recording of over-the-air broadcasts, then why not sue citing the applicable court case result?

[@PsRohrbaugh]

Because it's not. It's legal for you to record television. Subtle but important difference.

[@PenguinRevolution]

It's legal for you to record live television on the public airways. It's not illegal for them to encrypt in a way that restricts your ability to record and playback those recordings.

[@RBzee112]

The courts separately ruled that it's illegal to break DRM. So you can record stuff, but you can't legally defeat DRM 🤦‍♂️

[@ValleyMansonOfficial]

This shit is no match for proper cables and a VCR. Get rekt.

[@kalijasin]

@@PenguinRevolution using a tv tuner box, the output via hdmi is unencrypted.

[@Flexin010]

Wow, conplete lockdown with encryption. May tv rest in peace.

[@jefferyG499]

Yep, just like DVDs, Blu Ray, Blu Ray UHD, and HDMI HDCP it will never be defeated. Literally zero people have ever decrypted any of those formats. Nobody's ever broken DRM for a video game. NoCD cracks never existed. Etc. Etc.

[@Michael-Joseph123]

Broadcaster have to keep one channel free, or they would lose their license, the sky us not falling. And they will keep all the sub channels, they could take all the shows on all their sub channels and try to add them to the streaming services they own, and charge more money for them streaming service, but they can't, so they put them on sub channels and turn a profit that way.

[@stapedium]

@@Michael-Joseph123except right now in buffalo, wgrz and wkbw are both encrypting their only nextgen signal. It’s just a copy of they hd signal, not real 4k, but for the Northtowns the signal would be much stronger. If the get to keep charging cable and put an unwatchable channel out they can force people to pay for cable.

[@REAL-UNKNOWN-SHINOBI]

You don't have to pay, yet. You will one day if they implement that feature into ATSC 3.0 Honestly they could have just left out encryption all together. Don't know why it has it, doesn't even need it.

[@oOignignoktOo1]

But if they left out the encryption how are you supposed "own nothing and be happy." ?

[@StuffJason437]

I mean- Someone could point camera towards the screen and defeat the purpose of the DRM crap, and honestly they made this DRM to make the movie,tv industry happy so they take ATSC 3.0 onboard.

[@PenguinRevolution]

People do this all the time with streaming services. DRM doesn't stop pirates at all, if someone wants to pirate something they will find a way to do it.

[@therealavolpe]

High quality p,irate files exist for all TV and movies, etc. I never come across DRM as a result..

[@StuffJason437]

@@therealavolpe If someone really wants to do something, they will find a way to do it, even if there are things that make it hard to do. ~George Herbert.

[@japzone]

Don't even need to do that. The HDMI DRM, DHCP, can often be bypassed, allowing you to use HDMI capture devices to record anything at pretty much flawless quality. So this DRM won't even affect pirates, just normal users trying to use Plex or other software.

[@clintmatthews3500]

It’s not their rights they’re managing. It’s yours.

[@Jim-Tuner]

All this is going to do is kill off over-the-air broadcast television faster. Making a dying format even more difficult to use isn't going to accomplish anything positive.

[@kakd1870]

this is what TV corps want.

[@stapedium]

They want to keep ota going at a nonusable level. That way they can keep their bandwidth and force cable to pay for their network channels

[@mybachhertzbaud3074]

Surely we can still watch and record all the commercials DRM free, because that's what we truly want to watch.......Right??😜

[@jameskilrain9350]

I do not believe it will prevent piracy or even that the broadcasters believe it.Think the whole thing is to get persons to subscribe to expensive cable and satellite services .Which will interesting enough maybe give them more revenue from retransmission fees.

[@kensmith5694]

Yes, I think you are correct. If it wasn't the case, why did they rush to encrypt before converter boxes were ready.

[@stapedium]

Bingo!

[@AAa-qd8hb]

Big Money is why the Corrupt FCC is killing your old OTA free TVs and TV recorders useless and forcing you to buy the new OTA DRM government controlled ATSC 3.0 TV equipment. Let some or all TV stations stay on the current ATSC 1.0 TV Standard. Why force close all? Let the people decide. The FCC is a corrupt failed USA Government agency that only cares about money and power for it's secret (Big TV Corporations) controllers.

[@kensmith5694]

When I have to connect the converter box to the internet in order to watch OTA TV, my TV goes out to the curb. I am not buying a new TV any time soon. For about the same money, I can get another PC if needed to watch stuff over the internet. The OTA TV only makes sense if it doesn't connect to the internet. The "public airwaves" only make sense if the content on the broadcast is not encrypted. On the path we are on, I can see the FCC taking another block of frequencies away from the OTA TV.

[@lcarliner]

In the early days of ASTV 1.0,Early form of DRM was considered. One of the proposed recording restriction being considered was a 48-hour pumpkin-provision. Suppose that CBS 60-minutes was scheduled to air a segment on a religious cult? The 48-hour expiration provision would have prevented the use of that segment by a Wednesday bible study session! Fortunately, it was dropped! Such DRM restrictions would greatly reduce the usefulness and value of hard-hitting documentary news stories.

[@timbo303official9]

Apples drm is at least more reasonable compared to atsc 3.0. Its still bypassable just like atsc 3.0

[@jamesm568]

Where are the sub channels to next-gen TV?

[@billybassman21]

The best thing to do is to just stop watching any station that uses DRM.

[@Speedzeit]

Hello, I am from Erie County, PA. I can agree, that DRM kinda sucks. I mean, not many people really record anything that goes onto an external hard drive, nowadays, most people record shows onto their DVR, that use security screws. But yeah, it sucks.

[@michaeltajfel]

In the UK, over the air TV is called Freeview. All the channels are obtained from one local transmitter. Digital terrestrial TV is broadcast using the DVB-T or DVB-T2 standard, which I believe is better than ATSC 1.0. I don't think many people use a digital tuner with their computer, but if you record live antenna, satellite or cable TV direct from your TV or from a box attached to it through an HDMI port, you only have the recording for as long as you have the TV or box which did the recording. If you record direct from a smart TV to a USB stick or other external drive, the recordings will not play on any other device, even if it is the same model. Is this the case in the US and Canada?

[@CapTVchilenaShootingStarMax]

That sounds very scummy. I know you asked about US/CA, but just let me tell you how it works in my country, Chile. We use the ISDB-T standard, derived from the Japanese ISDB. TVs usually don't have any DVR or timeshift capabilities. However, set-top boxes sold for older TVs (or TVs without a tuner) can accept USB drives and record content directly as plain old TS files based on the ISDB-T standard (H264 for video, AAC for audio). No DRM crap.

[@GRBtutorials]

That’s a restriction imposed by the recorders, though, the stream itself is unencrypted.

[@michaeltajfel]

@@GRBtutorials I am aware of that, but I don't think many people use a network attached TV tuner device. Are they popular in the United States?

[@stapedium]

@@michaeltajfelit’s a small niche but HDHomeRun and tablo sold quite a few atsc 1.0 networkable tuners

[@ian-digitalhit]

Actually, if you use a digital tuner with your computer, you can record the UK channels with a dvr program like MythTV and their are no restrictions on how long you have the recording and you can watch it on other devices. Lots of Brits on the MythTV forums and discussion lists.

[@jameskilrain9350]

Lon and Tyler the antenna man has been covering this very topic.Lon Seldman has actually started a petition on Change Org .you can signed. ONE Caveat.He ask persons who signed not to donate.Will only go to Change Org.Not him.

[@AAa-qd8hb]

Big Money is why the Corrupt FCC is killing your old OTA free TVs and TV recorders useless and forcing you to buy the new OTA DRM government controlled ATSC 3.0 TV equipment. Let some or all TV stations stay on the current ATSC 1.0 TV Standard. Why force close all? Let the people decide. The FCC is a corrupt failed USA Government agency that only cares about money and power for it's secret (Big TV Corporations) controllers.

[@ecwnikos]

? is it possible to use a video capture device ?

[@timbo303official9]

Yes

[@matthewjbauer1990]

literally over the past week, ATSC 3.0 in my area went down then came back up. I can't say when it came back up, as I don't watch a lot of broadcast and I was away over the weekend but I had to reset my HDHR Flex 4K to get ATSC 3.0 back. In doing so, my NBC affiliate is now encrypted. Before, it was only CBS. Now, I only have ABC and CBS on ATSC 3.0 and sometimes I can get PBS (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, and the religious channel all share the ATSC 3.0 broadcaster/tower in my area but not PBS).

[@WNYOverTheAir]

For over 2 years, none of the ATSC 3.0 channels were encrypted in Buffalo. Then one day a few weeks ago, our ABC affiliate became encrypted. I didn't see it coming.

[@matthewjbauer1990]

@@WNYOverTheAir It pisses me off that I can't get SNF in 4k now. I was looking forward to it this year.

[@williamjones7821]

A few weeks ago the chief engineer at the NBC station in Cincinnati told me that Sinclair and Nexstar should be encrypted by autumn 2023. So sad. are they really upset that I'm going to "time shift" and watch "Survivor 83" or "The Amazing Race 46" or something? Are the oldies channels afraid I'm going to record old episodes of "Matlock", "Murder She Wrote" or "Diff'rent Strokes"? Good heavens.

[@WNYOverTheAir]

Wow. If Sinclair and Nexstar channels become encrypted, the vast majority of ATSC 3.0 channels across the country will be encrypted.

[@kevinjones4008]

I'm not worried about it I have my coat hanger antenna for now I don't care how many channels I get I'm happy with what I have 1:45

[@crosslink1493]

I could see it being used on a PPV format like cable does with big boxing matches, MMA, big movie releases, and similar, but for everyday programming this is ridiculous. Its not mentioned in the video above, but are the stations doing this as they start ATSC 3 broadcasts and just keep it on hold until there's a critical mass of ATSC 3 televisions, or are they doing it on the ATSC 1 broadcasts, too, thereby locking up all their content (which means nobody is watching)?

[@WNYOverTheAir]

Broadcasters are not encrypting ATSC 1.0 broadcasts. Many years ago, some broadcasters implemented a paid TV service over ATSC 1.0 which had encrypted channels, but it didn’t take off (nobody was buying it). I’m not sure if it’s possible to add DRM encryption to free ATSC 1.0 broadcasts, as ATSC 1.0 encryption was coded with a paywall. Either way, I’ve never seen or heard of a free ATSC 1.0 station with encryption. Broadcasters want to upgrade to ATSC 3.0 because of its ability to add DRM encryption to free channels.

[@AshnSilvercorp]

Drm is literally envy... "if I can't have anything valuable, no one can."

[@jameskilrain9350]

I think it is to force persons into cable or satellite services.All those retransmission fees.

[@poisonshroom64]

and to think, all the effort they put into making this can be defeated with a capture card and OBS.

[@Nnamdxxx]

but no dolby audio

[@TJThomas116]

Really well explained the issue to me. Subscribed.

[@mr_ice117]

When will they get it, the harder they try to make DRM work, the harder we will fight to find a way around it. Not buying some stupid tuner to watch ads

[@kensmith5694]

If DRM went away, I might buy a ATSC 3.0 converter box and keep using my TV. I am fine with the ads that are on the ATSC 1.0 channels so I would be fine with them on the ATSC 3.0. I am not fine with having to connect the TV to the internet. When the internet connection is needed, The TV goes away instead. The videos on the internet will be what I watch.

[@Tech_with_Loco]

Now there is talk of time line to to kill ATSC 1.0, what a rip! No certified standalone tuners. OTA DVR is being choked out.

[@woofgbruk5947]

And they wonder why piracy is on the increase once more . . . .

[@RJARRRPCGP]

It's time to sound the alarm to the EFF!

[@AAa-qd8hb]

Big Money is why the Corrupt FCC is killing your old OTA free TVs and TV recorders useless and forcing you to buy the new OTA DRM government controlled ATSC 3.0 TV equipment. Let some or all TV stations stay on the current ATSC 1.0 TV Standard. Why force close all? Let the people decide. The FCC is a corrupt failed USA Government agency that only cares about money and power for it's secret (Big TV Corporations) controllers.

[@smitty9398]

Would rather do without than deal with anything DRM.

[@kensmith5694]

Yes, doubly so since videos on the internet are a thing.

[@pepsiru1es92]

Wow, Mary Beth Wrobel on WIVB! What a throwback!

[@basspig]

I think I'll stick with Blu-ray discs and make mkv.

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

It's not worth it, and ATSC3.0 boxes will never cost below $100. If you can't record it, why bother? The Internet exists, and you don't have to mess around with an antenna for the Internet. DRM killed ATSC3.0.

[@tim3172]

"ATSC3.0 boxes will never cost below $100" Proof: trust me, bro.

[@stapedium]

Only places I know of to get live video for sports are covered in sketchy ads. This is my main reason to watch ota tv

[@robertmason7013]

I received a message from ADTH my next gen receive will arrive this Thursday 8 24 23 .

[@WNYOverTheAir]

Thanks for the update!

[@mattbosley3531]

Over the air TV has been dead for years. A few people just haven't noticed yet. Most viewers watch cable, satellite or streaming. And don't cry about "free" TV. TV has never been free. Besides having to purchase the TV itself, and for many people an antenna, you had to spend your time watching commercials. Time has value.

[@bcnyt]

i got a sony tv with supposidly gen 3 tuner ,im in ri with access to boston and ct stations,i havnt got any 3 gen stations . i dont care if i cant record them i just want to tune them in..

[@ian-digitalhit]

Is WKBW DRMing just the ABC channel or are the subchannels encrypted as well?

[@WNYOverTheAir]

Only the ATSC 3.0 version of WKBW (channel 7.1) is affected. The subchannels on WKBW's ATSC 1.0 station are unaffected, and the other channels on the WNYO ATSC 3.0 lighthouse are also unaffected. There aren't any subchannels from any station currently being broadcast in ATSC 3.0 in Western New York.

[@stapedium]

WGRZ is now encrypting the atsc 3.0 broadcast too

[@orektez]

i haven't watched tv since roughly 2009, i honestly find it kinda funny they would put the final nail in themselves.

[@AZBuckeye96]

NFL football is what keeps many people “hooked”

[@orektez]

@@AZBuckeye96 only sport i liked was baseball, till a bunch of them got caught using performance enhancers. haven't watched a game since.

[@hellomiakoda3782]

I'm not sure what they think they will accomplish with DRM encrypting the OTA TV. I'll just stop watching.

[@micycle8778]

I don't really see the issue here. I have piles of ripped DVDs and Blu-rays on my hard drive, despite the copy protections on them. This is because DRM doesn't work from a security standpoint. The pirates are a subset of the people you're giving the unencrypted content to, so all a pirate has to do is snatch the content while it's unencrypted. Someone somewhere is going to figure out how to reverse engineer the DRM and publish the reverse engineering online, just like how libdvdcss is used today to undo DVD encryption for devices and software that aren't authorized to playback DVDs.

[@milestailprower]

If DRM is going to be broken anyways, it shouldn't exist. If you buy a NextGen TV certified device, you are fiscally supporting hoops for consumers to jump thru in order to obtain true ownership. DRM is "defective by design", as it hurts regular consumers more than pirates. The worst example is HDCP. If your TV is too old, it may not work with HDCP content unless HDCP is bypassed.

[@Lion_McLionhead]

Implementing all those usage rules in a set top box is real abysmal. It's hideously complex work, just to ensure some advertiser gets paid.

[@timbo303official9]

Meanwhile I'm still waiting for atsc 3.0 in chicago lol

[@PsRohrbaugh]

God I hate DRM.

[@stanleybest8833]

DRM encryption will help to snuff out digital widescreen, subscription TV, and advertising revenue. The North American TV industry even chose its own system so the world can't share programming. ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 need to vanish. Kitchen TV's need to come out of the closet. The library, church, and antique stores are still loaded with DVD's and VHS tapes. That's all I watch.

[@lmiddleman]

This is exactly what governments want to do with digital currency.

[@Chris_In_Texas]

Ironically I have a number of the Connect 4K devices, and so far with the amount of compression that they are using the picture looks worse in ATSC3 than it does in ATSC1, so I really hope that ATSC3 fails at this point with all this crap going on. 🤦‍♂🤷‍♂

[@PC4USE1]

I believe that some channels,perhaps those running first run movies,should be able to use DRM(although what is encrypted can be unencrypted). All the rest should be able to be recorded and /or time shifted. That would be a solution that not everyone would like but everyone might accept.Also remember the "Analog Loophole'.

[@kelownatechkid]

DRM is always bad! Good video

[@robertmason7013]

I just ordered a new 3.0 device from adth it is next gen certified it only cost 79$ .

[@stephengiacobozzi7785]

if you need internet DRM encryption tv is not free

[@dwmca1620]

IMAGINE, RE-RUNS - IMPROVED VIDEO QUALITY - WARRANTS PAY AS YOU WATCH "FREE" TV. PO.

[@bmiller949]

I crack the DRM for all the content I purchase.

[@stapedium]

Can’t you just record the stream? Then crack it off line. I’m sure it won’t be long before vlc is able to remove the drm just like it did dvd etc. maybe a year at the most.

[@joe10117]

forcing us to cable streaming services

[@uniqueprogressive9908]

Solution: HDMI Capture and VLC

[@megacap55]

Really wants to encrypt channels that only show news?

[@therealavolpe]

I watch everything p,irated anyway, lol

[@janchristianursuaaguilar7434]

super karma for those who make those dingus drm in the words of dankpods: it's like the biggest companies made the worst junk or something.

[@AudiophileTommy]

They are ruining over the air broadcasting and don’t care !!!😡

[@Clownworld74]

Lol Buy 2030 You’ll Own Nothing And Be Happy

[@RyanK-100]

Do you hear yourself? "Companies should not be allowed to use DRM. Except Apple."

[@WNYOverTheAir]

I never said that. I was simply comparing iTunes DRM to ATSC 3.0 DRM. As is the case with Apple, you can’t play the files outside of the Apple ecosystem. A similar situation would occur with ATSC 3.0 DRM. You wouldn’t be able to play the files outside of the device it was captured on.

[@marcusdamberger]

Also, Apple isn't broadcasting over the air so aren't restricted on what they can do to the file our how it's protected and distributed. It's paid for content that I'm sure their licensing agreements with various Hollywood studio's love how locked down it is. Anyone remember the "analog hole" that studios and various broadcaster were keenly worried that copyrighted material would bypass any DRM by coping material in the analog domain? The usual implementation was to restrict the analog outputs, i.e. component video, to standard definition output only on DRM material if it had a copy protect flag. (the digital output would have HDCP) From what I remember, the "analog hole" never became a issue, I don't think anyone at the time had the kind of equipment to convert a component analog 1080i video signal back to digital without paying for professional video equipment that could handle the bandwidth.

[@jefferyG499]

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