Why Elon Musk and The Far-Right LOVE DUNE (and how they don't understand it)

[@diegob8319]

the movie literally opens with the line "who will our next oppressors be?"

[@brentoncarter4275]

thank you. no one pays attention.

[@Gelatinocyte2]

Chani's opening lines in the first movie, right?

[@darksidegryphon5393]

Musk and his ilk want to be the next oppressors.

[@b1bbscraz3y]

Elon: yeah who will that be?

[@skidmc]

Sounds like a democratic mantra, I mean, the difference with monarchy is subtle

[@UnderRatedAlbums3]

people actively concerned with bloodlines is a major red flag

[@UnderRatedAlbums3]

how do they not realise that genealogy is the archaic method of history keeping

[@JamilaJibril-e8h]

😂😂😂😂😂 family portrait

[@harharharharharharharharha240]

Ikr? It’s goofy as hell. Your ancestors are dead pretty sure they could care less about some great great great grandchild not having kids out of all their other 100 great great great grandkids

[@Byrdstar6423-un3me]

White right wingers really believe they descend from nobles and the wealthy when they actually descend from peasants andnservants

[@alexj-t2331]

There’s no pure bloodlines, think about the amount of adopted kids that were never mentioned to families throughout history, the cheaters children, the bastard Children, the fertility issues of the past being solved via a third party, there’s no pure bloodline that isn’t royals inbreeding for at most 200 years. Bloodlines are a sham

[@modelmajorpita]

Elon Musk absolutely believes in eugenics and that his genes will lead humanity to a golden path. That's why his daughter being trans broke him, she did the thing Matt Walsh talked about: put her own personal happiness ahead of the good of the "bloodline." The people trying to blame his daughter for Musk being awful have it backwards - her being trans didn't make him fascist, his fascist and abusive ideology is what made her transition so upsetting to him.

[@sergegostoli9524]

"her being trans didn't make him fascist, his fascist and abusive ideology is what made her transition so upsetting to him" SPOT ON !

[@XANSEM]

How ironic

[@linagreenlyfe6705]

To be fair, many parents experience a grieving period when their child transitions because it feels like loosing a son or daughter that you thought you knew. Still, he could have handled it a whole lot better. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to use eugenics to "prevent trans ness" sometime in the future...

[@jennisizzler]

@@linagreenlyfe6705don’t be fair to billionaires, they are not fair to us, they would literally not pee on you to put you out if you were on fire.

[@legion999]

Musk has shitty genes anyway just look at him

[@moonlightrobbery]

Elon would fail the gom jabbar test, and that makes me happy.

[@moonlightrobbery]

@@Kombaiyashii I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't. Musky would think he could.

[@maybemablemaples2144]

​@Kombaiyashii that's a lot of words to say butthurt, but cool story, dude.

[@mojotheaverage]

​​@@Kombaiyashiihe absolutely wouldn't be given that test lol. The Bene Gesserit would see just how incompetent he is and how incredibly narcissistic he is and know he would never be the Kwizats Haderach. If anything, based on his track record, the bene Gesserit wouldn't even consider him a useful genetic stock for their breeding program, let alone worth testing with the Gom Jabbar

[@Definitely-Jedi]

The obvious jealousy for Musk is repulsive. You claim the man who spent $44 billion to reduce censorship and increase freedom of speech is a fascist. Yet you don't even realize that Kavernacle is actively deleting voices of dissent. You are in an echo chamber, you suffer from dunning kruger and you are far closer to fascists than Musk ever is. And you're too ignorant to even notice.

[@brendanmcculloch2406]

@@mojotheaverage they'd let him try. why bother putting up with his bitching when you can let him have his way and the problem solves itself

[@siouzsie]

Welcome to Dune. If fascists love Dune then they’ve obviously missed Herbert’s point.

[@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342]

Missed the point with zombie movies. Missed the point with matrix movies. Missed the point of star ship troopers. Mann they are slow

[@axelfoley133]

They'd probably unironically reply that Herbert missed the point of fascism.

[@badbichdb]

Imagine being one of those numbskulls. Instead it's possible to subvert them.

[@SonderZensei]

It's similar to how right wing people use the term "woke". The term was originally used in the African American culture to warn of obnoxious, dangerous white people. They are literally the 'woke' and are clueless about it.

[@hairymcnipples]

​@@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342 ehh. They miss the point of the film, sure, but the book's very different and Heinlein was absolutely a weird little freak himself.

[@markharrison6498]

I don’t know how musk can look in the mirror and not realise he’s a harkonnen

[@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342]

Lol he does remind me of baron harkonnen haha. Especially the weird body shape

[@markharrison6498]

@@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342 he’s repulsive to look at. What I imagine a haemorrhoid would look like if it gained sapience

[@markharrison6498]

@@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342 he’s what id imagine a haemorrhoid would look like if it gained sapience

[@jennyanthonia7553]

elon wants to be oppressed so bad

[@Fstop313]

LMAOOOOO

[@benjiclark6529]

1. Grimes is not very smart 2. Feyd Rautha is a dark mirror of Paul 3. If Musk is like any character in Dune, it's Baron Harkonnen

[@AYellowPepper]

More like the beast Rabban. Be real

[@Mitch.Buchannon]

Or a little, pathetic worm?

I thought they did the Baron dirty in the movie, but he's actually even more pathetic in the book. Lynch' movie threw me.

[@benjiclark6529]

@AYellowPepper Okay, true. I actually had that thought after I'd posted.

[@DaraelDraconis]

Counterpoint: he's a Tleilaxu. All his power comes from others, he views women as tools and objects, and he wants a huge eugenics programme.

[@patrickmike2524]

A right winger coworker of mine came up to me at work because he knew I saw Dune II and was just praising the movie and I started getting into the actual message and how Paul is not a “good guy” and he thought I was completely wrong.

[@TheKavernacle]

Movie Paul atm is 100% not a good dude - if it was book Paul i'd be happy for a debate because its complicated

[@brentoncarter4275]

because right wingers are sub literate.

[@Nemo12417]

The movies stripped out some of the references to Islam, but it's still kinda obvious. American conservatives are cheering on a Muslim flavored prophet who is declaring war against the rest of civilization. How...... just..... how?

[@markharrison6498]

@@patrickmike2524 conservatives are crazy. Mine co-workers won’t shut up about trans women so I’d happily trade mine for yours

[@camillagilmore1547]

​@@TheKavernacleI think talking about good guys and bad guys in Dune fundamentally misses the point of the books: that there is no such distinction. I dunno, it feels like asking who the good guy is in JD Ballards High Rise, yknow?

[@VinceMVP]

“Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,” Guess he missed this part

[@markharrison6498]

Well, technically he’s following that rule to the letter.

[@markharrison6498]

@@brentoncarter4275 the quote was “thou shalt not make…” not thou shalt not try to make. Chill out and maybe take your own advice?

[@markharrison6498]

@@brentoncarter4275 Elon’s multi-billion dollar companies can’t even make a car that is waterproof. If you think he’s going to succeed in creating genuine ai then you’re an unserious person imo

[@markharrison6498]

@@brentoncarter4275 I read the first book about a decade ago. I don’t even understand what you’re so mad about. Pretty sure we have similar views on this. It was a dumb dig I was making at elon’s incompetence

[@kylezo]

this is a weird thing to say considering there's literally a screenshot in this very video (15:55) of his tweet about how the book advocates for limitation on AI development which he says he agrees with, which is what this quote is about in the first place. like elon musk is an idiot but ooof what a miss. I am not sure if you were trying to point out that Kav missed this, or incorrectly asserting that musk missed it

[@mimosajd]

Wait, are you telling me the people who don’t understand 1984, also don’t understand Dune?!?!? Say it ain’t so 😭

[@machematix]

At least it means they won't burn/ban those ones...

[@FrozEnbyWolf150-b9t]

It goes all the way back to the Bible. So yeah.

[@EstradaDuran-sg6co]

most people haven't even read it.

[@mojotheaverage]

​@@EstradaDuran-sg6coI can guarantee that the majority of them haven't read either Dune or 1984. I find it happens incredibly often that as soon as a series becomes part of the "culture war", right wing chuds start claiming they've always been fans despite never having mentioned it before. Critical Drinker did this with 40k recently and it was so painfully transparent just based on what he said that he'd never known anything about 40k until he realised he could capitalise on a non controversy

[@StratsRUs]

George Orwell was definitely Right Wing !!!

[@Blakblooded]

Funny how the same fascists who like Dune, usually hate Asimov. They often address many of the same issues but it's harder to spin Asimov's writing into something they can support.

[@DavidRichardson153]

Which is a little weird, given that Asimov was one of the sci-fi writers who wrote that you should trust authority - not necessarily in the fascist way like Heinlein did, but still something they could use. Herbert had something of a front-row seat for what happens when you do that (IIRC, he was related to Joe McCarthy, and he denounced his beliefs while recognizing what his rhetoric was capable of).

[@Blakblooded]

@@DavidRichardson153 Asimov also calls out the (mainly far right's) stupidly, which they don't like. “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

[@antediluvianatheist5262]

@@DavidRichardson153 Asimov was a socialist.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

​@@BlakbloodedUnfortunately too many countries think like that about democracy... especially post-communistic ones.

[@KomradeKrusher]

@@DavidRichardson153 Nah, Asimov's "trust authority" is refering to authority through proven excellence, not authority through force or blind obedience. Asimov basically says "trust the science", and that's everything the right is against, opposing "scientific authority" with their own ignorance and mangled "common sense".

[@Koifin3]

Elon imagining himself as the underdog when he’s essentially at the top of the world is a good laugh, but it’s also really scary to know most people in actual positions of power look at them losing power as if we’re oppressing them.

[@mrosskne]

They're right.

[@Dreambot-yi3sw]

@@mrosskne how so?

[@Plain--Jane]

​@@mrosskne how's that boot taste, weirdo

[@KennedyCopy]

Without Orcs there is no Sauron. Without fascist fanboi's there is no Musk

[@dntthe88]

People like him and Grimes read scifi purely for the aesthetics of it

[@mavrospanayiotis]

I'm not sure they actually read.

[@helsinreaper]

​@@mavrospanayiotis I'm more incline to believe that Grimes read it misunderstood the message then gave Elon the abridged version.

[@mavrospanayiotis]

@@helsinreaper it's possible, every comment coming from Musk about reading seems like just repeating some very rough review of a book with strong personal flavour.

[@hanabakhouch8558]

I liked 3 songs by her but god does she grind my gears with the quirkiness

[@helsinreaper]

@@mavrospanayiotis It wouldnt be the first time he was caught being "fake" nerdy

[@DavidRichardson153]

Not gonna lie, when I saw the first of the new Dune movies, and there was the scene of the harvester that would end up being swallowed by the worm, when its escape mechanism malfunctioned, I thought, "Oh, so Tesla made that." Then I thought, "Wait, that's a critical component for getting it airborne, so it's not Tesla - it's Boeing."

[@mrosskne]

wow, you're incredibly dull

[@kiwionkeys]

In the real world we don’t need sabotage

[@DavidRichardson153]

@@kiwionkeys Operation: Gunnerside begs to differ.

[@BlackEpyon]

It wasn't the harvester that malfunctioned. The carryall had a faulty anchor, which prevented them from lifting the harvester. This is a change from the books, as the books had Harkonnen agents try to run off with it and sell it to smugglers, only to realize too late that the smugglers were already in Duke Leto's pocket.

[@vaiyt]

​@@BlackEpyonunnecessary for the movie, as the scene was meant to tip Leto that the entire operation was sabotaged from the get go.

[@imoney139]

Wait till elon finds out what herbert has to say about cops...

[@Gelatinocyte2]

Wait, Herbert is BASED like that?

[@EstradaDuran-sg6co]

what does he say about pigs?

[@Dk._]

@@EstradaDuran-sg6co “Police are inevitably corrupted. ... Police always observe that criminals prosper. It takes a pretty dull policeman to miss the fact that the position of authority is the most prosperous criminal position available.” From God Emperor of Dune by Frank Herbert

[@scarletkingdom2359]

@@Dk._based as fuck

[@lettuceman9439]

@Dk._ Not gonna lie, Hating the Police is more around the spectrum of Authoritarianism than being far right nor left. Libertarians, Conservative Christians and Neo-Libs hates the Cops as much if not more than the more progressive left, Mainly because they are the most likely victims of Cops as they are outside of Urban centers.

[@fluxonite]

It's the same reasoning how fascists love Starship Troopers (1997) while not realizing it's a satirical parody of fascism itself. For your younger Gen-Z viewers, if you haven't seen it, check it out. I'm an older millennial who saw it when I was 12 but appreciated far more at 18.

[@augustaseptemberova5664]

good movie. the book tho, very disappointing .. where the movie does satire, Heinlein actually means all that bs. one of the few cases where i'd say, watch the movie, skip the book.

[@ann-marielukas5895]

The film moved me back in the days, still was a Teenager. The ending was so sad. Never read the book though.

[@babstra55]

I've had so many arguments with fascist starship trooper fans WHO CAN'T RECOGNIZE THE FASCISM even when you point it out and explain why. both with book and movie. you can explain them that voting rights that are locked behind you going through militarist indoctrination is and can't ever be democratic, but they simply can't grasp it.

[@arcturionblade1077]

DoD unironically played Starship Troopers and Full Metal Jacket on the waiting room TV when I in-processed into MEPS twenty years ago, lol.

[@SongwritingDeconstructed]

I watched it again recently at 42, as well as Robocop. It's utterly depressing that the latter has not only held up so well, it's actually even *more* relevant now than when it was made

[@StannisHarlock]

These people can't tell that Muadib is not a hero and neither was Leto. Why compare them to your kid and your husband?

[@zammmerjammer]

People think "Lolita" is a love story. People are f-ing dumb.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

​@@zammmerjammerJK Rowling...

[@lauralvw8445]

Or she knows her baby daddy is the villain

[@EmoBearRights]

I guess I see Paul as an anti hero. It's a tough world and that doesn't produce ideal people.

[@benjiclark6529]

Dunning Kruger

[@arda..]

I don’t understand how conservatives consider Paul a character that they sympathize with or a character that resembles Jesus in any way considering how bitter and angry he turns at the end, they don’t see evil they just see chosen one and religion which automatically means good, the worst part about this is that if Paul wouldn’t abuse his power their anti Islam sentiment would probably not let them like the movie

[@tilltronje1623]

I mean, Hollywood already changed Jihad to Crusade to make it more appealing to their right wing audiences

[@taragnor]

Well in all fairness they don't know Jesus very well either. They'd call his actual teachings too woke.

[@venuskllix1066]

@@taragnor And they don't connect that Jesus wasn't even "white"

[@eges72]

@@venuskllix1066 He was a Jew, and a communist in practice. The epitome of a nightmare according to a european fascist. _"...All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.."_ Acts 2:44-45 _"Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common."_ Acts 4:32 - 35 These are two quotes from Bible I could find, among _many._

[@EnterpriseC14]

Hell if anything Paul is more so Mosses, or Joseph (Jesus' Father) Because isn't Leto II, the god emperor, supposed to be Jesus?

[@starvalkyrie]

Not understanding shit is a proud cornerstone of rightwing "thinkers"

[@Octanitrocubane-enjoyer]

“free thinkers” who neither want freedom nor think, aren’t they impressive

[@SMoggyinski]

Most American conservatives probably don't have the self-awareness or intelligence to realise the irony of praising a series whose fundamental message is about the dangers of mixing religion and politics, or of mindlessly following 'charismatic" leaders ..

[@lettuceman9439]

Here me out, People are People. Shallow, Contradictory and easily amused while most lives in bubbles.

[@chromeego7903]

@@lettuceman9439 I hear you bro. "People are People" - that stuff may get you far along the Middle Way, but it just don't fly on a KZbin comments section. The Algorithm has already decided what we think and will only keep shuvelling more of it down our throats.

[@lettuceman9439]

@@chromeego7903 Frankly i just wanna remind the Commentator that what he is referring to are human being not some cattle he put on a pedestal for enjoying something they like, Dune the Movie grossed Millions because even the average man was amazed by it not on a deeper level but a personal one, Something the like Media Literacy comes second in Entertainment, Hell that American Conservative is probably a well-educated individual not some idiot or monster, Just someone who believes in Tradition, His local and the message which herbert put up in the forefront, Heaven Known no one is skeptical of Charismatic leaders as a Christian who is serious with their Faith. "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect"

[@SMoggyinski]

@@chromeego7903 Note that I said "Most American conservatives" .. not ALL and not even "most conservatives". I live in the UK .. from a European perspective, American conservatives seem particularly odd .. particularly inclined to mash up religion and politics, particularly inclined to insane conspiracy nonsense, particularly inclined to weird cultish behaviour. All generalisations are by their nature generalisations, but this one seems to me quite valid.

[@chromeego7903]

@@SMoggyinski I have no interest in defending any amalgamation of people that have been invented as a shorthand for your concept of vice. But best to remember, as this vid points out, Frankie himself may have come under the conservative banner. I was talking to lettucehead about reminding each commenter that 'conservatives were people too' one comment at a time (see lettucehair's other comments). A noble waste of time. I'll tell you what everybody in this comments section reminds me of: do you recall the conversation between Lady Jessica & Thufir Hawat when they are accusing each other of being traitors? Both so very cleaver, and niether can recognise the true danger.

[@lennysmileyface]

Hmm a charismatic leader with fanatical fans likes a story about the dangers of charismatic leaders.

[@yllejord]

"Charismatic"...?

[@lennysmileyface]

@@yllejord Have you not seen the Cult of Elon?

[@yllejord]

@@lennysmileyface you know, you can see how the object of a cult's adoration is charismatic, even if you don't share said adoration. Also being the totem of a cult does not mean they are charismatic automatically. Yes his fans are beyond obnoxious irrationality and no Musk isn't charismatic.

[@seanford2478]

0:19 He post a quote that literally calls out someone exactly like him and the people he supports to be in government.

[@theinnocentturtle1236]

He posted this when the leftists are still in power. Musk doesn't align with YOUR values and he's rich. You cant call out leftist rich but Musk since he's right leaning 😂

[@grasstastesbad]

yeah it’s very ironic, especially after his convo with trump

[@mrosskne]

Wrong.

[@declanashmore]

This is especially correct now that he happily said he would join Trump in his cabinet.

[@mrosskne]

@@declanashmore Hardly.

[@КГБКолДжорджКостанца]

I feel like it's the same thing for those who watched Total Recall from 1990, cause it had Arnold and well many far right individuals saw this is as an American patriarchy film.... The movie is about fighting against greed and colonisation

[@christophergreen6595]

See also, robocop and starship troopers. Love that Verhoeven!

[@КГБКолДжорджКостанца]

@@christophergreen6595 I seen starship troopers, MASTERPIECE, just 👌 👌 👌

[@eges72]

"Another raise on Oxygen prices???"

[@КГБКолДжорджКостанца]

@@eges72 yep pretty much and it has rebels who want more air without paying

[@ClaraDarko]

Yeah, they don't get it. Ideologically speaking, the Dune series is quite complex. And we're talking about these people (modern libertarians, red pillers, incels, misoginistic gamers, Trumpers, fascists in general) who claim to love, for example, Star Trek, which is one of the most progressive franchises out there. They can't see the contradiction. It also took them 4 seasons to realize that The Boys is making fun of them! My own brother, who calls himself a "libertarian Trumper", adores the original Star Wars trilogy, and is absolutely incapable of recognizing that he's not a rebel, he's a bloody stormtrooper working for the Empire!

[@lettuceman9439]

Not gonna lie, You just lumped together names and titles which is just safe to say as "bad" in the leftist sphere. I have no sympathy for Fascist and Idolators but some of those are not like the other and your forgetting that a People are People, Humans with Contradiction and the inclination to like something because of what it is in a shallow manner than the subtext that isn't apparent. It's a digusting comparison but I'll concede to explain, Louisiana is a poor state mired in corruption mainly by the Democratic Party neglecting the state for being republican, It had a long-list of Psuedo-Dictators like the Longs but unlike the Democrats this petite Dictatorship had done more good to the state albeit through a political machine than the federal government cared for, Trump being the republican nominee is enough for moderates and conservative to throw in their lot with him due to a broken system which 2 dominate party is viable in winning the elections, Can a man or woman not see solace in these entertainment, Speak of their themes in relation to their beliefs and even acknowledge the contradiction? Is a Leftist not entitled to enjoy Tolkein's works because of its Catholic subtext, Doestovsky with his love of Jesus Christ, Do they we not own our heritage of revolutions from the Triumph of Christ against the Roman World?

[@brewster_4]

@@lettuceman9439 Being leftist and Catholic are not mutually exclusive. A person can be both. You complain about OP for lumping people together, and not seeing them as complex individuals, but you did the same thing in your comment.

[@lettuceman9439]

@@brewster_4 I go for Context with my argument, Was Tolkein's Catholicism not socially conservative and Localist nor was Doestovsky's Orthodoxy one with tradition and one born out of disgust from the Socialist of his time?

[@Leiska86]

I find US libertarians to be so bizarre. Trumpism is highly antithetical to libertarianism, but I think US libertarians tend to be religious, have a conservative tilt and are so sweeped up by culture wars that they can't seem to understand how hostile to their supposed ideals he is.

[@a-rat-in-your-walls]

​@@lettuceman9439 Bro has a degree in yapology. So many words but nothing actually said.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

"[Frank Herbert] advocates placing limits on machine intelligence." Not really. Sure, the Butlerian Jihad happened in the wider lore, but within the actual plot as it evolves in the later books, Herbert acknowledges that technological advancement is more or less inevitable and _doesn't_ advocate placing constraints on machine intelligence because he doesn't actually believe machines are even _capable_ of anything that could be meaningfully compared to human intelligence. In _Heretics of Dune,_ Miles Teg overwhelms an Ixian device attempting to probe his mind by adapting to and outsmarting it in real time and vividly depicts Herbert's faith that machines will never replace humans. The jihad happened not because machines were an existential threat but because they led to dependency and removed any sense of challenge or excitement from human existence. His objectiosn to AI are _philsophical,_ not pragmatic. Frank Herbert didn't consider AI rebellions to be a threat, which is why the Brian Herbert novel about such an event as the inciting incident of the Jihad is questionable.

[@ashdog9235]

Men once surrendered their mind to machines but that only allowed for other men with machines to enslave them. The O.C. Bible should have said thou shall not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.

[@BlackEpyon]

That's because when Herbert wrote Dune in 1965, computers were just room sized overglorified calculators. The "machine intelligence" he portrayed in Dune would have been more akin to the way the Nazis just saw the Jews as numbers on a chart, to be disposed of and their assets liquidated. Just cold hard numbers. The AI never rebelled. What gave rise to that "past," was that humans had given their thinking over to machines, instead of thinking for themselves, and the machines treated them as numbers to be manipulated and exploited for maximum gain. Truth be told, the Butlerian jihad is very weak as a plot point. What should be considered, is what led up to humanity deciding that machines could order human society better than humans could, and signing over control of their lives. I don't find it a very likely scenario in any case.

[@declanashmore]

​​@@BlackEpyon It didn't say that the machines started treating them as numbers. The first book says: "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." From this we can see that there was group of people that controlled the machines, and the rest of humanity had given over their lives to it, to make them lazy. So to put it in a US context, it was basically a war against Tim Cook and Sam Altman.

[@vaiyt]

​@@BlackEpyonand that's still more or less how the thinking machines today operate. Herbert is still the more prescient writer, as he had Musk's number decades ago.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@vaiyt Not so. AI can be programmed to be empathetic. Musk, on the other hand, has all the empathy of a wet paper bag.

[@TrueMakaveli50]

My brother tried to argue it was pro Christianity and the Alia stuff was somehow anti abortion. People will find excuses to support their pre determined ideology anywhere.

[@bramvanduijn8086]

I can see how Alia stuff was pro-abortion in an eugenic kind of way, but how was it anti-abortion? She literally becomes possessed by Baron Harkonnen if I am not mistaken.

[@TrueMakaveli50]

@@bramvanduijn8086 well he’s only basing it off the movies since he didn’t read passed the first book. It was something along the lines of Alia being able to talk to her mom while in the womb and being conscious. How he applied that to the real world where consciousness is not obtained until like three years of age, I do not know. But that was the jist of it. He ignored the fact that even in the movie, it’s stated that what is happening to Alia is NOT a good thing. She’s straight up cursed and her story is basically a Greek tragedy. As I said, people will find ANY excuse to support their pre determined ideology. It doesn’t have to make any sense at all.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@TrueMakaveli50 When a fetus is no larger than a shrimp, it barely has enough neurons to move the clump of muscles that will one day develop into a heart, much less interpret anything the eyes are seeing (if were even bright enough to see in the womb). When the child is born, and starts recieving stimuli and interacting with the world around it, consciousness begins to develop itself, and the child will start to differentiate itself FROM the world. Consciousness is more of a graduated scale than something that just happens. So the notion of Alia being pre-born, while it works for the story, is quite impossible. Nevermind the notion of genetic memory.

[@TrueMakaveli50]

@@BlackEpyon not disagreeing with you one bit. Thanks for the write up.

[@vaiyt]

​​@@bramvanduijn8086its anti abortion because it portrays this one baby as fully conscious in the womb

[@belmiris1371]

Yes. Eugenics has such a history of success with humans. "Did you breed for intelligence, resourcefulness and resilience?" "No, just height, skin color and eye color."

[@SeasideDetective2]

"White" eugenicism is doomed to failure, because pretty much all the traits we associate with whiteness are caused by recessive genes.

[@orphanedhanyou]

So you are against planned parenthood then?

[@SeasideDetective2]

@@orphanedhanyou Whatever bad can be said about Planned Parenthood, they have always been a race-neutral organization. It's just that they happened to have some racist allies in the early days.

[@yllejord]

Ah, but if your ideology convinced you that intelligence etc somehow sit in the height, skin and hair colour genes?

[@spacewad8745]

remember these are the same people who watch The Boys and believe Homelander is the good guy

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

Lmao morons the lot of em

[@alaeriia01]

I never watched The Boys. Is Homelander the Asshole Superman or is Asshole Superman someone else?

[@Byrdstar6423-un3me]

Basically: make booster gold but make him as evil as possible and give him superman powers

[@WinterPains]

​@@Byrdstar6423-un3meI wont stand for this Booster Gold slander

[@bramvanduijn8086]

@@alaeriia01 You got it.

[@aoeuable]

Six generations up or down your family tree at most and your genetic identity is completely lost in a general mish-mash of humanity. Not even small fragments of your ancestors or descendants can be attributed it's so scrambled due to all the recombination and other people involved.

[@Ziegfried82]

I wouldn't go that far. Genetic traits resurface many generations later due to which combinations are made, we've seen it with genetic diseases in particular. My take is a bit different: most of humanity will be forgotten by their progeny after 3 generations. Odds are nobody will remember you not even your own bloodline.

[@darksidegryphon5393]

Unless you do 🌈eugenics✨️, right? _/s just in case_

[@xyaeiounn]

@@Ziegfried82 People argue about what happened hours ago, but they might be doing it with minds and bodies handed to them by circumstances from centuries ago. Eugenics is real but a simplistic approach to hammering its buttons might warp us all to rodents.

[@Mitch.Buchannon]

That’s definitely wrong. E. g. you can still trace Neanderthal genes in people of European descent while there are none in people with African or Asian heritage.

[@aoeuable]

@@Mitch.Buchannon Not to individuals. There's some population-level markers, yes, because different populations not interbreeding for six generations is historically not exactly rare. Also Neanderthals and Denisovans had contact and interbred so it's not that clear-cut, more of a gradient.

[@wfb.subtraktor311]

Gotta love when a person with a pathological personality posts quotes about power attracting pathological personalities.

[@orphanedhanyou]

You realize those that become leaders and ceo's are more prone to all the personality traits that make those positions successful right? That doesn't mean the same people don't manage them & have plenty of other balanced characteristics.

[@antediluvianatheist5262]

If libertarians understood how things worked, they would not BE libertarian.

[@Ziegfried82]

Could say the same thing about socialism/communism. Left wing ideologies have yet to show themselves to be truly functional long term. Though I would say libertarian is even less viable than socialism due to a lack of State power. Communism on the other hand always transforms into some sort of dictatorship and/or one party tyranny. No human form of government can stand the test of time due to human nature itself.

[@cerin59]

Amen

[@cerin59]

​​@@kev2034your comment doesn't make sense. Libertarianism is always about giving more power to those who already have it, at the expense of greater and individual good. Plus, it's a childish bureaucratic impossibility. Every single libertarian dream world or proposed replacement system for justice, courts, consumer protections.... either FAIL, or take 3x the bureaucracy to actually pull off. Then there's the issue of throwing away hundreds of years of our ancestors' hard won achievements. Things like 40 hr work week, overtime pay, things we take for granted. Democracy as we have it is very flawed, but it's still the best thing going. Respectfully, libertarians just don't understand things, because if they did, they... wouldn't be libertarians.

[@maybemablemaples2144]

​@kev2034 Florida will sink into the sea and who do roads work exactly?

[@oscarmccoy9102]

⁠@@cerin59you’re acting like the current system isn’t eroding away those things. The current system does everything you are criticising Libertarians for.

[@graphite2786]

A slightly more sinister view of Musk's "Population collapse" It's not the world population thats slowing down, it's the Western population- Anglos, Nordics, Caucasians. Musk's tweets are directed at a few select racial groups.

[@ericktellez7632]

The problem here is that groups like that are made up. The term for western and white in general can either expand or retract depending on the level of development of fascism in any given society. When the founding fathers were at their apex of fascism with the manifest destiny period, several Europe were not white, including the Germans and even the nordics. Then the term expanded to include nearly everyone in Europe, now is at the point that anyone lightskin enough is white including arabic and western Asians who are light skinned and mestizos in Latin America who are light skinned. However it will once again decrease now that the US is in decline and fascisms once again continues to perpetuate with the decline of capitalism in America to exclude groups, we saw that in real time with Russians who went to full white in the late 20th century to now being pushed away from whiteness more and more since the early 2000s and it accelerated in Ukraine’s invasion.

[@mojotheaverage]

​@@ericktellez7632This is spot on. People forget about things like that until about a hundred years ago, Irish people weren't considered to be white. The definitions of these labels is as malleable as fascist ideology itself

[@arcturionblade1077]

White replacement theory, in a nutshell.

[@arcturionblade1077]

​@@mojotheaverageThe thing with fascism is that there must always be an out-group to target for their attacks. It's a circular firing squad and subsequent generations their numbers start dwindling as the insane purity testing weeds out the ranks. But politicians need the numbers in their voting blocs, and so they start making exceptions and courting "close enough to white Christian" populations Catholics (Irish, Italians, Hispanics and Latinos, etc.) and woo their votes.

[@Definitely-Jedi]

You demonstrate no understanding of population collapse. The first and most at risk countries are asian ones. Stop seeing the facsist boogieman everywhere you look, then you might see that this idiot is censoring his echo chamber of people trying to correct him over his misconceptions.

[@DavidRichardson153]

I just find it funny how Elon is crying about the dangers of machine intelligence, especially after his own "machine intelligence" has quite possibly invited litigation from Nintendo, all while he's part of the same tech frat bois that want to cram AI into everything.

[@xyaeiounn]

The tech frat bois are in love with AI because they think it can completely replace the creativity of humans as much as it replaces labor. My concern is they might be even half right.

[@ashdog9235]

He just wants to be the one to get to do the dangerous image generation stuff. Also remember: once men thought machines would free them but that only allowed for other men with machines to enslave them; what the orange catholic bible should have said is thou shall not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.

[@Octanitrocubane-enjoyer]

so the funny thing is, he’s a fucking scumbag around this like everything else, he just wants to slow down the competition so his objectively inferior ai can catch up lol

[@vaiyt]

He's hyping up AI as something really important and powerful that we better spend a lot of energy regulating its potential sentience, and dont you want to invest in it now so you're not left behind??

[@TheMasterfulcreator]

The bloodline thing is just false. We don't stand at the end of a particularly long line, we stand at the end of one branch of thousands upon thousands of intermingled lines.

[@greasemonk4576]

Please understand, these are the same fools too scared to actually do 23&Me because they don't want to sell their DNA to China. Otherwise, they would have learned about genetic folding and Charlemagne by now.

[@vaiyt]

He's talking about rich white people

[@MultiAwesomered]

This is total pedantry. You can trace single paths through either Y chromosome or mitochondrial DNA. EITHER WAY, you understand what he meant, and if you don't I can help you. Humanity is a lineage, and youre silly to suggest otherwise.

[@TheMasterfulcreator]

@@MultiAwesomered Ironically, it's you who is being pedantic. What he meant doesn't work even if the irrelevant technicality you state here is correct. Every link in the chain of a long bloodline will have a wide tree of descendants and not just a singular line even if the notion of a singular bloodline can be made precise. No singular person can delete this or stop it by choosing not to procreate. To echo your own words, if you refuse to understand this point, I can't help you.

[@regex74]

Aside from the charismatic leader aspect, the Dune series was also about the perils of the oracle (seeing the future). Herbert spoke about this in letters to his editor. So the entire Bene Gesserit breeding program thing may have been to foreshadow exactly how Leto II would solve that issue by breeding humanity into being invisible to the oracle. But also, human potential is a big theme as well, especially in the later ... entertainment books (Heretics and Chapterhouse).

[@BlackEpyon]

Yeah the notion of a teenage Duncan gola being genetically engineered by the Bene Tleilax to become a sex god to counter the spread of the Honored Matres definately qualifies as "entertainment."

[@EckhartsLadder]

I've been waiting for this lmao. Jabba the Hutt thinking he's the God Emperor. It's also funny that these people read one fucking book, because it's the one everyone says to read lmao, and make it their entire personality.

[@Octanitrocubane-enjoyer]

holy fuck you’re here, I knew you were cool but I had no idea you were quite so cool lol, anyways love your videos dude

[@kayajam7810]

i liked your star wars videos

[@ARGHouse504]

Elon: A world with centuries of entrenched feudalism and narco-imperialism... I'm here for that shit.

[@gruntmanthesound]

Listen it's not easy having correct opinions all the time, but Kav bears that burden for us

[@harharharharharharharharha240]

Bro is carrying

[@orphanedhanyou]

There are zero correct or factual opinions here.

[@nervous_greenfish]

Trump is Baron Harkonnen and Elon is Piter de Vries.

[@cerin59]

True!

[@carmensavu5122]

Yeah, but their 1984 versions. 🤣🤣🤣

[@bramvanduijn8086]

@@carmensavu5122 Oh definitely. Or the related videogame versions Dune 2000 and Dune... Dammit now I want to replay Dune, let's see if I still have DosBox installed.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@carmensavu5122 I'd love to see Trump go fluttering out the window like a deflating baloon after getting pricked by a Gom Jabbar! That was the only good part of the Lynch movie, IMO. I liked the Sci-Fi channel miniseries a lot better.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@bramvanduijn8086 Dune 2 and Dune 2000 for me. I have yet to get into Emperor or the original Dune game (by Cryo Interactive, not Westwood), but I need to at some point. Also, screw DOSBox, true retro nerds run these games on period correct hardware!

[@ViperPilot16]

Musk really needs to see, then read the book of a film called "The Martian". To see why his Mars plans will not work.

[@mimosajd]

The only reason he wants to go to Mars to begin with is he will get to decide the laws and rules of the planet in his mind

[@brentoncarter4275]

@@mimosajd the only reason he references mars is a distraction. it's like the Home Depot CEO distracting the public with "illegals" referring to immigrants. it's dumb and lots of people buy it and his interlocutors waste time entertaining his BS. it truly seems that everyone is either too stupid or too lazy to overthrow these people.

[@supernova9361]

i'm sure he did and thought: "I can do better."

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

​@@mimosajdTotal Recall.

[@rustomkanishka]

I think he might read it and decide he, in fact, is Micheal, including all the implications from the book. Let's not put strange ideas in his head.

[@comradethatmetalguy]

Many people do not understand Frank Herbert's position on artificial intelligence. Herbert was not against them. In the saga, it is in religious texts and from authority figures that the warning that artificial intelligences are bad comes from (thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind). What this means is that power structures fear that people will use technological advances to emancipate themselves from the political, religious and ideological systems of domination to which they are subject. When Brian Herbert started writing the prequels, he changed this to make the artificial intelligences look like villains, missing the point Frank was making. For Herbert, technology was a tool to free us from control mechanisms.

[@lucasLSD]

What about the AI war?

[@lemonsandaztecs3072]

Yeah wtf are you talking abt. The AI revolt resulted in the butlerian jihad. They’re allowed to have complex machines in the form of mentats. The idea is humans must make the decisions. Did you not read the books or am I missing smt, because to be fair, I haven’t read all of them.

[@lesteryaytrippy7282]

Oh wow. All that nuance disappeared. But if Frank Herbert ever lived today, would he have changed his mind?

[@Uf7f7d6cufihud6dgco]

Yes, exactly, originally, the Butlarian Jihad happened because other men, through the use of A.I., subjugated worlds. The A.I. pacified people to the point that they couldn't fight back against the powerful people who enslaved them. The A.I. was a tool in the hands of the elite, and the elite were evil, not the A.I was evil full stop.

[@Ziegfried82]

The Butlerian Jihad in the Dune series makes it quite clear that A.I. almost caused the extinction of humanity. A huge part of the lore of that world is humanity having to live without certain technologies expressly to avoid a repeat of the machines trying to destroy humankind again. If Frank Herbert was not against AI it certainly does not show in Dune's lore. I'd say his son gets it right actually and you are the one who is mistaken. It's not as though the original Dune was subtle about it. Humanity in that series is expressly avoiding using AI technology even going so far as to have "mentats" for calculations and the "navigators" for space travel. You're 180 degrees out of phase.

[@edwardvasquez4968]

Herbert warned against following charismatic heroes blindly. The Empire turned against Tech and embraced Feudalism. The elites deprived the galactic masses of Tech. The elites have slaves and manipulate the masses for their own benefit. I kinda like that their manipulation blows up in their faces with Fremen led by Paul Atriedes waging a holy war on the elites. As a left-winger I see this as blowback. Reminds me of Lawrence of Arabia as well. At the end a Fremen rules the Universe, but in a literally a monstrous way. Herbert, at least in the book because in real life he supported Reagan, has a poor view of authoritarians.

[@Ziegfried82]

Heh Reagan was a far cry from an authoritarian. It's amazing to me how left wingers associate Republicans with authoritarians, I mean most left wingers have read history. You know what real authoritarianism is. Not gonna say Reagan was a great president or anything, I'm actually not a big fan of him or Republicans in general.

[@cwestrephx]

It's always worth noting that one part of fascists liking popular works from the past is that it allows them to harken back to a "better time" in the past that we should return to.

[@NateSatuur]

Right wingers trying to have media literacy challenge: Impossible

[@awandererfromys1680]

"What machine did you think they were raging against? The dishwasher?"

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

To be honest, some leftists also lack media literacy, especially Tankies.

[@lettuceman9439]

"People are People, Media Literacy is a leisure which one can partake in with a glass of wine in hand"

[@Byrdstar6423-un3me]

It's honestly so frightening to me how much right wingers love the OBVIOUS villains and dangerous acts done in thrle story

[@arnold-ho8kh]

Remember when leftist missed the point of fallout, lain, and starship troopers? I remember.

[@Remix2366]

It feels CRAZY to catch a kavernacle video when it was dropped a min ago

[@Remix2366]

*2 mins

[@USSAnimeNCC-]

Same

[@CameronOfDune]

I’ve always thought Paul believes, that if it’s not him as the god-like figure leading a revolution, then someone much worse would be in his place… It’s why he doesn’t have any real resistance against the ‘Prophecy’ once the wheels were set in motion; Wheels which were set in motion long before he was born.

[@BlackEpyon]

That's the tragedy of it all. Knowing the future, you become trapped by it. He saw the Jihad coming, and could do nothing to prevent it.

[@starsiegeRoks]

Considering what Elon is up to now, the quote about "all governments suffer a recurring problem: power attracts pathological personalities..." is horribly ironic lmao. Elon is exactly what that quote is talking about

[@orphanedhanyou]

You realize those that become leaders and ceo's are more prone to all the personality traits that make those positions successful right? That doesn't mean the same people don't manage them & have plenty of other balanced characteristics.

[@lyokianhitchhiker]

Power doesn’t corrupt, it reveals

[@rileyhall9320]

Everybody in Messiah: "Paul, just put a baby in Irulan." Paul in Messiah: "Gross!"

[@BlackEpyon]

Paul was pretty spiteful against both the Bene Gesserit and the former Imperial household. For good reason. Ironically, Irulan poisoning Chani let her live longer, which in the end Paul was grateful for.

[@hassanalkhalaf1115]

​@@BlackEpyon how did you pronounce Shani?

[@BlackEpyon]

@@hassanalkhalaf1115 Gogdammit, lol!

[@RedisNotaFlavor]

"People have been referring to me as The Mahdi. The Lisan al Gaib." 😂

[@ChupeTTe]

Quite a cringe moment for muslims. We are used to hear some jockels refering themself as Mahdi🫥

[@YakBat]

8 years old when I first read Dune. To my tiny unformed mind it was CLEARLY about the Gulf War that was raging at the time. No I didn't grasp how old the book was at that time. I mean both are in a desert, both have an tyrant that must be taken out, and Arrakis? Sure sounds a lot like Iraq to me. I felt so smart. Again I was 8 and had only started learning English 2 years before. I also thought six was pronouced sick. So it boggles my mind how native English speakers seem to have such a hard time speaking, reading, or understanding their own language. I mean there are people today who don't understand Animal Farm and think it's just a longer version of Old McDonald.

[@chromeego7903]

You are telling me the 1970's porn film 'Animal Farm' has a shorter edited version called 'Old McDonald'?

[@YakBat]

@@chromeego7903 HAHAaaaakHAHAHA. Bro Legit spit out my coke. And nearly tripped walking. Worse is somehow I hit the text to speech so EVERYONE heard that.

[@brewster_4]

You read Dune at 8? You have gained my respect.

[@YakBat]

@@brewster_4 wasn't allowed to watch TV aside from Sesame Street until I was 10.

[@chromeego7903]

@@YakBat Ha - smooth move. Welcome to the beuatiful confusion that is the English language.

[@MaximusR93]

Elon would literally bring us the circumstances that would demand the Butlerian Jihad

[@xyaeiounn]

In some ways I'm okay with that. It's not as if we're examining the consequences of automating everything. We're living in bodies designed to walk and forage but we made a diabolically complex techno-delivery system for all our needs, owned and run by the usual psychopaths. It's not a problem to be solved either, it's a situation in flux and we could all die if we get it wrong.

[@dinonerd1517]

Yeah for someone who claims to be terrified of a sky net like AI, he really likes promoting AI

[@xyaeiounn]

@@dinonerd1517 His opinions seem to shift depending on how much attention he'll get for expressing them. Unfortunately, there is no post-verbal humanity possible, so he's moving us towards a high-tech dark age where words mean nothing.

[@Terp4Life10]

Does he know that he’s the Baron?

[@felixarbable]

It's similar in Warhammer 40k. Most of the community is fantastic but there is definitely a class of fascist fans that seem to totally miss the point and actually agree with the imperium morally. Starship troopers is another one

[@BlackEpyon]

When you read between the lines, WH40k is basically a mockery of everything conservatives stand for.

[@orphanedhanyou]

So chaos is the good side? 😂

[@felixarbable]

@@orphanedhanyou now your getting it!

[@Steventrafford]

The golden path - its point was to teach humanity to hate dictators. To scatter humanity and continue its survival. The tyranny of Leto was on purpose.

[@ludo_narr]

People already hate dictators and monarchs. They constantly have to prevent uprisings with scapegoats and violence. I also don't get the part about scattering people. As far as I understand it, people didn't scatter, because they needed spice to navigate space and they needed spice, because they weren't allowed to have computers. So ... just let them have computers ... people already want to travel through space. Just let them.

[@xen0bia]

@@ludo_narr Yeah I found these things questionable as well... People clearly at some point scattered across the universe or the Imperium wouldn't exist. I get that the CHOAM and Spacing Guild make interstellar travelling absurdly expensive, but there was a time when people did it the old fashion way... Just keep doing that? And yeah, monarchies always breed discontent and rebellions. People hating and revolting against tyrants isn't a new thing. /shrug I didn't read book 5 or 6, so who knows, maybe it make sense in those.

[@Steventrafford]

@@ludo_narr it’s complicated. Humanity had stagnated, the visions experienced by both Paul and Leto showed the decay and ending of humanity doomed to repeat patterns of behaviour. By enforcing the spice scarcity and tyrannical rule it forced humanity to adapt and “scatter” to escape. Thus forcing humanity to evolve and improve its chances of survival in the future. Took me a couple of reads to fully grasp it. It’s far more nuanced, but that’s the basic concept.

[@caffetiel]

Three thousand years of Worm King seems like the least-effective way to go about this

[@schoolfreak32]

@@Steventrafford Part of the "scattering" included the trafficking of sand-trout to other planets, which are the predecessors of the sandworms and generators of spice. And, SPOILER ALERT: The Bene Tleilax (the masculinist equivalent of the Bene Gesserit) who discovered a method of biotechnology through the absolute subjugation of women, discovering themselves that spice can be generated within the human body. When the Bene Gesserit discover this, the spice trade -- and the very basis of the empire -- is done.

[@blaqueup]

~13:00 you note the Orientalism issues and that is apparently why they kind of downplayed the Islamic stuff in the film. Not the best solution, but kind of I think par for the course for a lot of mass media. Instead of doing something right, they just kind of try to dodge doing it at all. It's my main gripe on the films, honestly.

[@BlackEpyon]

Each set of films brings something else to the screen

[@alexowo8408]

I'll be completely frank, I despise the dune franchise. I'm Arab (north African) and it's infuriating to have your entire culture and ppl be reduced to "easily manipulated religious fanatics" who care of nothing but existing and faith. The entire thing is a libertarian manifesto that loves its white saviors and the warrior's doctrine.

[@rimacalid6557]

Exactly, this video is so naïf and starts from an Islamophobic point of view

[@bramvanduijn8086]

I read it more as "if you consistenly oppress people for generations, they get belligerent and weird." Which, you know, not inaccurate. Look at the history of any group of religious fundamentalists and you'll notice they have cultural scars.

[@inflameswetrust2194]

I can see how it comes off as a white savior masturbation story, tho I've only seen the first 2 of the new movies.

[@artertemisartzetakis3077]

i think the movie addaptations did fore sure come off that way and im cureently reading the children of dune(3rd book) and im getting tired of just seeng the nobilities perspective. i say the movies are worst because in the books you get a deaper look in to fremen characters and their motivations. they are less of a mob and paul is also not portrayd as that much of a hero either. that being said you are right. i'm not sure ill finish the books but i am looking for good, relevant, and contemporary scifi stories to read

[@BlackEpyon]

Unless you've only read the first book, the franchise is an allegory against that whole notion of saviours, whatever their colour.

[@videogamenostalgia]

Choam Nomsky

[@danielvictor3262]

while Dune has its merits and fascism is not its political message for me its ideology leaves much to be desired tbh it doesn't penetrate through religion as an "ideology of the gullible" and take into account how material conditions affect zeal/faith. I think Dune sees religion more as an inherently bad thing and humanity's supposed "susceptibility" to a belief system that isn't tethered to rationality and lean more into myths and legends is somehow our fault. Of course I could be wrong but that's how it's like to me personally.

[@Ziegfried82]

That sounds about right to me, that's how I see Dune as well. Religion in that series is more of a tool of cynical leaders than anything else but there is that overtone of the supernatural with the prophecies and the use of the spice. I think Frank Herbert's libertarianism made it where he was completely cynical towards organized religion.

[@dr00g35]

correct me if im wrong, but isnt the author a self proclaimed iconoclast?

[@cerin59]

Disagree. I mean you make good points, but like real earf religions, though much is twisted stuff, there ARE also mysteries, truths, ways that are in line with ascension and harmony.

[@cerin59]

I mean come on. There's myriad mind over matter examples, mindfulness,....

[@Ethan-42]

I think they like the movie bc it’s “not woke” but they wouldn’t know that Kynes was switched out for a black woman, which didn’t affect the story but they’d throw a fit if they knew

[@avalokiteshvara113]

Dude you're right haha wtf

[@lennysmileyface]

The gender swap makes more difference than that since the Fremen are patriarchal and he is their leader.

[@BlackEpyon]

They DID throw a fit. The fact that you don't remember that controversy just proves what a nothing burger it all was (like every other culture war bondongle they whine about). Because as I predicted, genderswapping Keynes didn't impact the storyline in any way.

[@YukiLeiu]

4:05 if not having a kid means I only have enough extra cash from that to buy myself Doritos then I’m not having kids are you joking?

[@MoonyRanalie]

elon likes anything with moving images because he's high on ketamine and weed 24 hours a day, sad that it's still not enough to calm him down though

[@Tareltonlives]

They have the same issues with Lord of the Rings and Star Wars- they take away the absolutely opposite messages.

[@SageSundae]

I find Dune to be akin to Fight Club with film bros. too many people pulled the wrong point out of the story

[@Ziegfried82]

People can pull whatever they want from media. Even if the author/director intended one message people can still take another from the story. Otherwise whats the point of art if everyone is forced to have the exact same interpretation?

[@kev2034]

​@@Ziegfried82"yes we don't get the story but it's our right to not get it" 😤

[@SageSundae]

@@Ziegfried82 There's a difference between pulling multiple reading of a work and completely misunderstanding the messaging the of the work. For example, Fight Club is not a story about how badass it is to fight your friends and cause chaos.

[@greasemonk4576]

​@@Ziegfried82death of the author is the term you're looking for.

[@sophiejones3554]

No no, they aren't pulling things out of these stories. They are reading things into these stories. They view art as purely aesthetic, allowing the viewer to project meaning into the piece. This is opposite of the way most people view art, as something which has inherent meaning which can be teased out through close reading and deduction.

[@shahsadsaadu5817]

8:28 its not just a reference to Islam: its THE reference to Islam. A Noble who had to flee from his place owing to political persecution? Strong, Free tribesmen who never bowed to any empires of their times, who lives in the desert, has a prophecy about an incoming prophet like figure? The said Tribe uniting under the new leader and making a relatively light work of the neighbouring empires to set up their own empire in relatively short amount of time? Yeah thats Early advent of Islam to a T. Fremen are the Sahabahs.

[@ChupeTTe]

Stilgar is just space Abu Bakr. We have to face it The death of Leto the first strikes me as a reference to al Hussain. A lot of crazy references in those books, some genius some a bit awkward from a muslim perspective

[@bazzfromthebackground3696]

We're talking about a man who read 1984 and his takeaway was "Big Brother good, keep special peepo safe." Why is anyone surprised he doesn't get Dune, a much more complexly written story??

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

The reason for the Butlerian Jihad is that Herbert was smart enough to know that without it he'd have to write a book about AI and he didn't want to.

[@BlackEpyon]

Herbert didn't know what AI was. In 1965 when he wrote Dune, computers were overglorified room-sized calculators. His allegory was to the way the Nazis saw the Jews as just numbers on a chart, and at some point, humanity gave their thinking over to those overglorified calculators to manage society more efficiently, which culminated in the Butlerian Jihad after humanity was tired of being regimented like machines. The moral of the story is to not let machines do your thinking for you the way the German people let the Nazis do their thinking for them. What Brian and Kevin came up with afterwards for the prequels, had more in common with Skynet than anything Frank had in mind.

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

@@BlackEpyon "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." AI research was well known in the 1950s and 1960s. It was only later, by the 1970s and 1980s that people began to have serious doubts about whether it was really possible.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@JohnHughesChampigny There wasn't any hardware capable of AI in the 50's and 60's. Cryptography and physics research were the big things back then.

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

@@BlackEpyon "The field of AI research was founded at a workshop at Dartmouth College in 1956.The attendees became the leaders of AI research in the 1960s.They and their students produced programs that the press described as "astonishing": computers were learning checkers strategies, solving word problems in algebra, proving logical theorems and speaking English. Artificial intelligence laboratories were set up at a number of British and U.S. universities in the latter 1950s and early 1960s". -- Wikipedia. Yes, the first attempts failed; they underestimated the difficulty of the problem. You seem to forget that Herbert was a _Science Fiction_ writer. Postulating things that were impossible at the time was his job.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@JohnHughesChampigny I'm not arguing that people weren't thinking about it, but even checkers and solving algebra problems come down to simple logic trees and weighing a sum of input values, and issuing pre-programmed responses, which was the limits of computing at the time. In the 50's, SOME computers had teletype interfaces, but the vast majority were punch-card driven, and would display their outputs on a fanfold printout. It wasn't possible to see text on a screen until the late 60's, and even then, what you fed into the computer still had to be properly formatted or the program wouldn't know what you were asking it. AI didn't progress much further until the early 90's when the necessary computing power became more readily available.

[@machematix]

Good news! It means they won't try to burn/ban it.

[@mojoforthewin3069]

Frank Herbert: I wrote the ‘Don’t Do Eugenicist Fascism’ series as a warning against doing eugenicist fascism. Musk: Wow! Cool Eugenicist Fascism!

[@Byrdstar6423-un3me]

So glad I'm writing my fascist villains as purely disgusting psychopaths lol

[@Ziegfried82]

So you're making a story with 1 dimensional cardboard villains, great. Hopefully it's a children's book.

[@goodpeople25]

@@Ziegfried82 Did you read the fascist part?

[@darksidegryphon5393]

​@@Ziegfried82 unfortunately, that's not that awfully unrealistic (._.)

[@Byrdstar6423-un3me]

But here's the thing: they manipulate and play with peoples minds to make them do and believe awful evil things and its a litmus test to see which readers fall for their manipulation and which readers DON'T

[@Niko-J-438]

​@@goodpeople25From a writing point excusing a one dimensional character saying "uh... He's fascist and fascists are stupid" it's even worse

[@enmity9383]

imagine the pain of creating a masterpiece of a moral allegory, only for that masterpiece to be crudely and enthusiastically mangled by the very same idiots who you were warning against. happens more than you'd think. it would drive me to drink.😭

[@Johnston212]

Did they just black out in the part where the Atreides and the Harkonen are related?

[@grandsome1]

Elon Musk thinks he's a charismatic leader, the exact thing Frank Herbert wrote Dune for to warn us about.

[@env0x]

except he's not charismatic at all. he stutters and mumbles and uses words most laypeople don't understand.

[@Mitch.Buchannon]

@@env0xonly when he’s lying or making things up … so yes, nearly all the time.

[@FloatingErgonaut]

​@@env0xThere's different kinds of charisma. His money and space stuff did make him look charismatic to a bunch of people ..for a little while. Honestly, he could have been pretty charismatic if he was humble and interesting, regardless of stuttering and mumbling. Those alone aren't charm killers, or people with stutters would be doomed, no?

[@LineOfThy]

@@env0x charismatic enough for most of them

[@kingcr1mz0n71]

Art is lost on the right. They are only able to see surface level interpretation. A great example is the fact that Paul sees the hierarchy and the establishment as corrupt, then uses his privilege and position to topple that. I have been a fan of Dune since reading the book in 9th grade. I think dune has a lot to offer all people. @15:14 it is explained why house atredies is small. It is a fracture from house Harkonnen. This is revealed in the Butlerian Jihad. The BG sought to fix this by having Jessica birth a girl (instead of Paul) to be wed to Feyd to "seal the breach" as RM Mohiam said. 😅 fucking love dune

[@Ziegfried82]

The right wing are able to see beyond surface level, they merely have a different take on things. There's plenty of people of all political stripes who lack the ability to see past the surface.

[@kev2034]

​@@Ziegfried82"no u" ass argument

[@jloiben12]

I’ll take MAGA media illiteracy for 500

[@AlbertoGarcia-wd7sc]

Well, Herbert was a republican. But Herbert wrote specifically against religion manipulation and messianic rulers so it's clear they don't understand.

[@ashdog9235]

What’s funny is his favorite prez was Nixon because he was the Leto|| where is offenses were so large and blatant that everyone could see it for what it was. But what’s funnier is that Nixon has kinda been exonerated as the Supreme Court ruled that someone cannot be prosecuted for crimes committed in the course of presidential action. Herbert also seems to have voted republican on the grounds of “the Leto|| argumen” not that he probably didn’t like the deregulation though

[@BlackEpyon]

The Republicans of 1965 were very different than the Republicans of today.

[@DreamersOfReality]

Still scum, though. Ruined millions of lives, and put into motion the social forces that directly led to the modern GOP.

[@orphanedhanyou]

​@BlackEpyon nope they are the same. The left is the side that has shifted so far to the extreme. 90s liberal values are now "far right" to them.

[@orphanedhanyou]

Manipulation & rulers can be bad, that doesn't mean a true Messiah like Christ who does not require works or money or anything in your mortal ability to gain salvation & peace is bad.

[@T.efpunkt]

Why do people on the right take every warning as an instruction?

[@orphanedhanyou]

Are you blind? The left is censoring opposition & creating more war.

[@gottagofastest]

Reminder that billionaires all seem to want heavy regulations on AI so that they are the only ones who can reasonably run/start AI companies.

[@kalimacho1]

Interesting perspective Never thought of it

[@captainkiwi77]

The LOTR JD Vance goes slightly weirder and deeper cause he’s basically with apprentice to Peter Thiel who has this horrid fascination with the series. He runs valar ventures, mithril capital, Palantir technologies and he used 2 sort of shell companies to invest in meta called Rivendell llc and lembas llc

[@tjbarke6086]

"Power attracts pathological personalities" coming from Musk is a real knee slapper.

[@jonwallace6204]

These are the same people who didn’t realize “The Empire” represented the USA in Star Wars and that Star Trek has always been woke as fuck.

[@frederickthompson1546]

Though it might sound reductive, I've described Dune to a couple of reactors as feudal medieval Europe meets feudal medieval Islam. That seemed like simplest backdrop to the story.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

In space!

[@orinjayce]

Understanding Subtext is impossible when text is too hard. In any media, for right wingers.

[@MetastaticMaladies]

I absolutely LOVE Dune, but these guys completely misunderstand it, they view it more like a power fantasy than what it actually is, I can’t stand that they always flock to stuff like this. They misinterpret everything, they’re so delusional.

[@Koifin3]

Yeah it kind of sucks that these people root themselves into awesome shit like Dune.

[@michaelcoward1902]

It's the Adventures of Gary Stu and his amazing Technicolour plot armour...of course the power fantasy-tripping Right wingers love it.

[@jmWolfe2585]

Elon thinks that he's Leto Atreides. But in reality, he’s Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.

[@samovarsa2640]

I'd argue he's below Rabban

[@zakjackson2610]

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[@SpoopySquid]

"But although the cliche says that power always corrupts, what is seldom said ... is that power always reveals. When a man is climbing, trying to persuade others to give him power, concealment is necessary. ... But as a man obtains more power, camouflage becomes less necessary." - Robert A. Caro

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

Fun Fact: Herbert actually disagrees with that slogan. He believes that power attracts those susceptible to power. He said: "Absolute power does not corrupt absolutely, absolute power attracts the corruptible."

[@lyokianhitchhiker]

@@judeconnor-macintyre9874wouldn’t "already corrupted" be more accurate?

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

@@lyokianhitchhiker Take it up with Frank Herbert.

[@kaizerlock8287]

Ironic. A story about Capitalism, Authoritarianism, Fanaticism, and Idolism and they're doing exactly that...

[@Firehawk159]

What fascists have done to Dune is exactly what they’ve done to the Bible.

[@BlackEpyon]

No. The Bible is all about abasance to the supreme dictator. Dune is an allegorical warning.

[@Bob-jn8jt]

How does the message of the movie fly over so many people’s heads????? HOW??????

[@SpoopySquid]

Because all they see are cool fight scenes and special effects

[@alaeriia01]

Right-wingers are incapable of understanding subtext.

[@darwinism8181]

People who read Leto II as a hero creep me right the fuck out

[@MySamurai77]

He wasn't a hero but he did the task that was needed to ensure we don't go the way of the Dinosaurs.

[@TheSmiesko]

Hi there. :) From my point of view he is a tragic hero. He walks the path, that is not leading to annihilation and is willing to go through his transformation out of duty, not power. I found it fascinating. Why do I creep you out? 😅

[@darwinism8181]

@@TheSmiesko Because he wasn't a hero. He made himself the worst villain ever imagined to break a cycle of power, but... that's not heroic. You cannot heroically commit genocide. You cannot be a heroic despot. And I feel that Leto II himself would berate you for calling him heroic, tragic or otherwise. His story is definitely tragic, but it is not heroic.

[@TheSmiesko]

@@darwinism8181 what would be, if he would abstain from any action..? To my knowledge, it would be a total annihilation of the human race. From my viewpoint, as a utilitarian, the highest principle is humankind and therefore all actions which are preventing total destruction are valid. Being able to bear the consequences of such actions, where personal wellbeing is secondary is damn heroic. It kinda resembles me soldiers on the battlefield, doing their duty, to preserve one's survival. I think, I might be influenced by my local/country culture, where only the defensive wars were hold, during the history of my own kind/ethnic/state. He was not primarily looking for understanding, he did it because it was the right thing to do. Only person he was able to express himself was that lady, which was precisely constructed for him, yet he was unable to resist and then his memoares written on the discs/plates, which are used as intro to chapters. The benefit of one can never outweigh the benefit of many. Am I wrong? (Just inviting for conversation/discussion, do not want to start old fashioned flame war. :) )

[@darwinism8181]

​@@TheSmiesko Confusing a certain character in a book with actual certainty is a problem. Leto II genuinely believed in what he was doing, sure. But so did the Bene Gesserit, and it turns out their vision was flawed in a way that they could not even appreciate. Now, we can be pretty sure that while some of the things that Leto II did genuinely would 'save' humanity, in whole or in part, it was 'saving' them from himself and people like him. By becoming the worst monster in history, instead of letting others more naturally become monsters in a way that may lead up to annihilation. He became turboHitler to prevent what he saw as human extinction, and that's not heroic. It's the tragedy of power that Herbert was trying to get across, I think. That power corrupts and even with the noblest intentions you are still just a monster in many of the ways that matter most.

[@coltwhitman3312]

MONEOOO, WHY IS MY TESLA PRODUCTION LINE DOWN!?

[@ivanastudillo500]

If a time traveler goes back in time and kills little Hitler to prevent the holocoust, some would say he is a monster and some would say he is a hero. If some guy, inspired by this story just goes and kills a child, that person is just a monster. Thats the diference between Leto and Elon.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

It's fairly obivous why Villeneuve had to downplay Islamic elements within the film: Islamophobia. (Not that he himself is Islamophobic, but the negative impact racism could have had on the movie's reception.) That said, I think using actors who actually descend from parts of the world shaped by Islam is a big step up from _Dune (1984)_ that more than makes up from the substitution of such terms as Jihad for "holy war."

[@VulpesChama]

I mean, it is kinda simple: Dune provides, on the surface level, two things that people like that really, really like: - The outside savior trope They see Paul as savior, though the books, and the movies to some extend, go out of their way to tell us, the audience, how the prophecies are placed, how the natives are being used and how everything is just political power-play. Nothing is for the sake of the people. There are usually just less-worse options. - The honorable hero from an honorable lineage And the same goes for the hero part, the books and to some extend the movies, go out of their way to tell and show us how Paul is not the hero at all. He is groomed to be in that position. He is set up to be a leader and he is set up to rally the natives of Arrakis, through false prophecies and political intrigue. And that is literally where they stop thinking about what they are reading / watching.

[@cyruslupercal9493]

Elon isn't about understanding. He is about pretending to be intellectual and memes that look like they makes sense as long as you don't think about them.

[@queenskelaton6507]

For my dune nerds Elon thinks he's the god emperor but in reality he's the ixians although im sure Elon hasn't even read the first book

[@krismoe31]

It should be noted that Hitler had a weird soft spot for Islam that very much contrasts with modern western fascists. In numerous instances, both in public and in private, he has said that Islam is a religion which is better than Christianity regarding militarism and politics, and in one speech went so far as to say the muslims are more akin to (nazi) germans than the french. I don't think Kavernacle is making many bad points here, but I would still say that the "OG nazi lens" will yield a more coherent fascist reading of Dune than a contemporary fascist lens will.

[@MostRightWingManInBritain]

The problem is that Hitler would have probably spontaneously combusted when he heard Muhammad’s final message “There is no superiority of an Arab over a non Arab or non Arab over an Arab or a black man over a white man or a white man over a black man” The thing is, he likely didn’t find out that Jews were invited to Jerusalem in 638 AD when the rashiduns got power and forced the Byzantines back, he’d likely be terrified

[@kalimacho1]

Fascism is not homogeneous ideology There is Italian non anti semitic Mussolini fascism,Spanish catholic Franco fascism & Japan imperial fascism in addition to nazi anti semitic fascism...

[@MostRightWingManInBritain]

@@kalimacho1 Except Italian fascism was still racist, although not to a larger extent Same with japanese imperial fascism, they place a heavy emphasis on ethnicity that's the problem

[@badbichdb]

Yeah that's the thing I really loved about Dune. It was all about trying to gain all of the political power, from every side. Only Paul realized too late what having all that power would do to him... And the Golden Path? Just horrible. If that's the impression you got from Dune you need to read Dune Messiah

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

What, you're not going to talk about _Killer Sex Kittens of Dune_ !!!

[@alaeriia01]

This I was not aware of. Elaborate, please.

[@JohnHughesChampigny]

@@alaeriia01 The Honored Matres, introduced in _Heretics of Dune_ ; "However, people from the Scattering are returning with their own peculiar powers. The most powerful of these forces are the Honored Matres, a violent society of women bred and trained for combat and the sexual control of men. " -- Wikipedia.

[@BlackEpyon]

@@JohnHughesChampigny More like dommie mommies than sex kittens.

[@chrishouseinc]

There's a lot of similarities between Paul Atreides and Eren Yeager from Attack on Titan that show a similar trend towards fascist also being sympathetic with the Yaegerists that I find interesting.