Why The Far-Right LOVE The Lord of the Rings

[@TheKavernacle]

To make it clear I like the movies and books - my comment about not being friends with people who love them (some of my friends do) was half serious, but at the same time If I am making new friends where we don't have some shared history I probably would want our interests to align abit more and having LOTR as your fav movies probably indicates to me that they won't. I am talking about like LOTR movie superfans. Book fans are a different story, and I have more respect for people if that is your fav fiction book.

[@Aer0dynam1cc]

Thanks for that clarification, it wasn't entirely clear to me whether you meant just the movies, just the books, just the movies and the books, or the entire legendarium. I stil like the movies (particularly Fellowship) but I don't think they're my favourite movies anymore (though they still rank in my top 10 I think). If you like some more morally flawed/grey characters, give the Silmarillion a try ;)

[@maxpokebruh27]

LOTR movie superfans and the fascists who wildly misinterpret the story, I totally understand wanting to avoid. I appreciate the clarification because while I do like the movies and love the books, it's also important to explore other fantasy stories and other genres as well.

[@willmosse3684]

Well at least you distinguish the books and movies here. I wish people of your age would do that more. I hate the fact that when people under 40 say Lord of the Rings, they almost always seem to be primarily referring to the movies. The novels were a cultural phenomenon for decades before those movies came out, and they will be long after those movies are dated and forgotten. And stop calling it a bloody franchise! Alright, rant over 😂

[@WRDend]

I think this can be said about anyone wholly obsessed with something; Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, anime, sports, politics, etc. "A little rain never hurt anybody" "Yeah, but a lot can k!ll ya!" *I recently rewatched Jumanji 😅

[@willmosse3684]

@@chaserseven2886 only the shit add ons. The actual books, which is what Lord of the Rings actually is, are not a franchise. Everything is fucking McDonaldsified these days. The novels are a work of art, not a friggin burger chain.

[@michaeldeaton]

Mostly because they misunderstand it. It is inspired by Western history literature and mythology, along with Christian themes, but it is not an allegory and it is not attempting to spread Christian values. Tolkien's values were deeper than that, more timeless, and frankly, more about British brotherhood in times of turmoil, than anything religious in nature.

[@joeavreg2254]

Dude, Monarchy and aristocracy are core components of english culture. People with magic blood and one person with the most magic blood who wears a hat that is connected to God himself through which he dispenses unlimited wisdom and power. Tolkien was a firm believer in the superior race like all anglo supremacists of his day. If you had told him he, as a catholic, had something in common with the Irish he would have been appalled by your suggestion and been ready to tell you about how we needed to be culled and prevented from dirtying the anglo-saxon breed.

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

Unlike his friend C.S. Lewis, who really was not subtle in his blatant use of allegorical christian themes! I mean, come on! Way to hammer the point home, Mr. Lewis!

[@chriscortez2036]

Also, Tolkien drew upon his experiences in WW1- Mordor & the orcs basically embody how war, greed, & rampant industrialization can corrupt people.

[@FictionHubZA]

Tolkien did hate imperialism.

[@arnold-ho8kh]

Aww so close! Tolkien said it was Christian in nature! I hope this helped weirdo!

[@michaelkenner3289]

It's worth noting the importance of LoTR to the gay community. The profoundly intimate male friendships in the story have a value perhaps not intended by the author but still found by readers. In general there are progressive readings of LoTR that often focus on the depictions of masculinity. Again, not necessarily the author's intent, but there are a lot of friendly, kind and confident male characters who don't have all the typical traits of toxic masculinity often seen in other works of fiction.

[@monkey39128]

What actually is "toxic masculinity"? I hear that term a lot and yet I still don't get it. Is it just men who want complete dominance over women like that Tate fellow?

[@efffvss]

Gotta say, it seems like the 2 paragraphs you wrote there are arguing completely different viewpoints. While it's great that the gay community can find something to value in the story, that's ultimately the same thing that a heterosexual can find there, wholesome and sincere relationships (especially in the modern era where actual meaningful friendships are in such short supply). Tbh I suspect that the "not necessarily the author's intent" bit might be redundant. While he was 100% a man of his time, from what I understand of his character, I don't thing Tolkien would align with the Andrew Tate's of today. The amount of shipping around LOTR (whether it's Sam/Frodo, Gimli/Legolas or something else) does my head in. Because you're right, there are a bunch of extremely close/intimate male friendships in the story. But none of them are romantic. Which leads to this weird thing where non-toxic masculinity (which LOTR is a fantastic example of) gets gay-coded. But that tendency leaves heterosexual guys with only the toxic bits left as 'theirs'...

[@nala3055]

​@@monkey39128 I don't know if I can explain it well but I'll have a go Toxic masculinity sometimes gets interpreted as meaning "being masculine = toxic", which it isn't at all. What it's referring to is expressions of and standards around masculinity that are toxic. Like for example, in our society of toxic masculinity, there's a pressure for men to be stoic, physically dominant, financial breadwinners, engage in 'laddish' behaviour etc. And this is toxic because a. It doesn't take into account that everyone is an individual. Some men are shy, don't like sports, and are stay at home fathers while their wife goes to work, and that's obviously totally fine! But toxic masculinity puts pressure on men not to behave in ways like that or they aren't "manly" enough. And then b. It's obviously wrapped up in a lot of homophobia, sexism, violence against women etc. (Tate is a good example like you mentioned). But because of toxic masculinity there are loads of young boy who look up to Tate, because they think "if I just conform to this set of standards for ideal masculinity, then I will actually be worth something as a man. And if I don't I'm worthless". I don't know if I explained that well at all but I hope it helps some. Basically toxic masculinity = performing a set of stereotypically masculine traits/behaviours just because you think you have to, including when these harm yourself and those around you Masculinity in general = just being a man however you like being a man. Being a good father/partner/uncle/boss/local football coach. Being a stereotypical jock or wearing pink every day and enjoying knitting. Or both, whatever you like 😂

[@alexthefae]

Being gay has always existed and it wasnt until recent modern history it was given an identifier and deamed immoral by religious facists. So the idea of men have close and romantic relationships was just normal for most of history and even in tolkeins era.

[@alexthefae]

​@@monkey39128everything republicans do and people like andrew tate spout

[@maxpokebruh27]

I love Lord of the Rings but man these right wingers just don't get it.

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

Yeah it's got a literal tyrannical force that tries to conquer the world and was defeated because multiple groups of people came together and fought back.

[@maxpokebruh27]

​@@marksalmoneussorcerersupremeit's literally there on screen but as usual, right wingers choose to just skew it for their mental gymnastics.

[@cg1906]

@@marksalmoneussorcerersupremeright but that’s how they see themselves. They don’t misunderstand that part of it.

[@willvisco6842]

@@cg1906 Well no, they're completely misunderstanding that part of it if that's how they see themselves. That's like, the definition of misunderstanding something lol

[@MrBlack146]

It reminds me of one comment made on a Russell Brand video which I cannot recall, but the comment was along the lines of "I've just finished watching all the Hunger Games movies, bring on the revolution". My instant thought was clearly that person completely missed the point of those movies and Katniss Everdeen's story.

[@keiththorpe9571]

There's a very simple answer to much of this Tech-bro adoration of LOTR. They all loved it as teenagers, and they never outgrew their need to overwrite the mundanity of their lives with the LOTR narrative to try and spice their lives up a bit.

[@monkey39128]

Wouldn't that be almost every person ever then? Nearly everyone has something from their childhood that they're nostalgic for and revisit occasionally. For example I'm 30 but every few years I'll watch one of the old Scooby-Doo films.

[@Colddirector]

@@monkey39128 I think there's a difference between being nostalgic for something and letting it colour your entire worldview. It's like how old people will call the 50s-60s the "good old days" when they only think they were "good" because they were a child back then.

[@monkey39128]

@@Colddirector That's true. I guess it depends how much of an influence it's having. If LOTR is one of many small parts that makes up your worldview then I think that's fine. If you're basing your entire worldview on one piece of fiction then you might want to expand your horizons.

[@arnold-ho8kh]

I'm sensing some projection, how's your relationship with your father btw? Don't worry little buddy let it all out

[@TheRockerX]

@@arnold-ho8kh sounds like *you're* the one projecting something lol

[@Kolbjornelenano]

If you made a movie where the leader of the good guys finds a dying ally and then cries, tenderly kisses his forehead and calls him "my brother" these dudes would go crazy and call it "woke"... but that's what Aragorn does when they found Boromir

[@commentator-tl9h]

Exactly! And the heroes of the story are not the brash, war mongering, glory-seeking, power hungry, self-assured toxic males of the far right; but all the contrary; just look at Aragorn or Faramir or even Frodo, the humblest of all heroes.

[@FinallyAlone]

There goes shaun bean dying again.

[@rev.chuckshingledecker]

The female Ben Shapiro girl tried being a movie reactor before she began her grift as a right wing talk show host and she literally mocked LOTR as being woke.

[@aramythr5965]

That's not how woke is being perceived though? That kind of emotional war story is pretty prevalent in things like WH40K and GoW or whatever they find good and based. What is perceived as woke is usually about DEI, whiny self-pity and self-righteous identity politics.

[@kohlicoide2258]

​@@commentator-tl9hShame on you that you dont mention Sam.. a humble gardner with a heart of Gold.

[@marcello7781]

Tolkien would be really disgusted by all these "fans" of him who lobby for big industries and deny climate change. Also, the worldview of people like Evola is something antihistorical, born from blind faith and obedience rather than the scientific method and the constant search for answer. p.s.: in Italy many of us (I'm Italian) mock Giorgia Meloni by comparing her to Gollum.

[@wcjerky]

Non riesco di non vedere Meloni gridare 'PREZIOSO!' con pazza di più...😆😆

[@Billpro25]

To p.s.: Its the eyes, ain't it?

[@subcitizen2012]

Let's be real, he'd probably just be another JK Rowling lol

[@Billpro25]

@@subcitizen2012 I... don't know how to feel about that. I mean it is not impossible.

[@mischr13]

the translations of the comment in Italian says "priceful!" instead of "precious" lol

[@lm-wo6vx]

For a counter-argument to the idea that Tolkien's imaginarium portrays a black-and-white morality, check out Nick Groom's 2023 analysis "Tolkien in the Twenty-First Century: The Meaning of Middle-Earth Today," especially the chapters titled "Uncertainty," "The Ambiguity of Evil," and "The Hesitancy of Good." A key theme is Groom's assertion that, "moral instability is profound in"The Hobbit," and all-too evident elsewhere in Tolkien's work." Really changed my POV.

[@BladeValant546]

It also plays against black and white by the fact that good that actually defeats evil and what actually saved middle earth were tiny acts of good. Mercy from Bilbo for example.

[@goosewithagibus]

I always think Kav overstates the "black and white" morality. There's plenty of morally ambiguous characters in the legendarium. Sure Tolkien believed in True GoodTM and True BadTM, but that didn't stop him from writing morally ambiguous characters.

[@brendanmcculloch2406]

there are some, but even the deepest and most complex ones he wrote (which i woild argue are not present in lotr, more in his other works) are quite shallow and one dimensional compared to what is found in more modern works. don't get me wrong, i am not saying lotr is BAD, as a YA novel it still holds its own, but by adulthood people should have expanded their horizons beyond such simplistic narratives

[@Midgert89]

@@BladeValant546 Yeah, but that is consistant with Christian theology. Meek shall inherit the earth and all that.

[@Nemo12417]

@@goosewithagibus Plus, black and white morality isn't always inherently bad. Star Wars literally has the Light and Dark sides. Plus, if I were to declare that black and white morality don't exist in the real world and do it on, I dunno, a video about Israel or American imperialism, do you think he'd agree with that?

[@kimasher]

The irony is that Ben Shapiro is Wormtongue in almost every definable way.

[@pencilpauli9442]

Only night quite so far up his own arse as Shapiro.

[@ludovicgraham6234]

I think Wormtongue's more traditionally masc...

[@matthewharrell398]

@@kimasher can you name one?

[@Samael456devilizer]

@@matthewharrell398you just have to listen to anything he says.

[@matthewharrell398]

@@Samael456devilizer Such as?

[@spacedonut8157]

Imagine being a tech CEO, reading the scouring of the shire, and thinking "Yep, this book is aligned with my worldview."

[@gm9460]

Depends on what you are a ceo of. I can see how tech CEOs are too divorced from that kind of reality to see it

[@kichki777]

Well is the ceo pro or against mass immigration ?

[@michiganscythian2445]

Same with the Ents vs Saruman. “Let’s buy some undeveloped land and put office buildings here” is not something Treebeard would approve of

[@BladeValant546]

These people would support Sauron because they would find Aragorn a beta lefty, hobbits as lazy, elves as demons.

[@zeusjukem9484]

they see themselves as the elves 100%

[@My-Name-Isnt-Important]

Elves are meant to represent what people would be, if they had not sinned in the Garden of Eden. Aragorn has tons of religious connotations to him too, and is meant to be an example of masculinity. If anything, anyone not super religious, won't really understand the books in their full context. C.S. Lewis liked to be very open with his views and having it show in his writing, Tolkien though, was far more subtle, but it's there if you understand it and know what to look for.

[@hunzukunz]

They see themselves as Gondorians and Rohirrim, but they would be the Orks and Goblins

[@Jubafree]

​@@hunzukunz💯😂

[@nguyenvietanh2152]

Based Sauron fighting for better living conditions for Orcs

[@maxpokebruh27]

The things you've said about Tolkien and his views are correct but it is possible to acknowledge Tolkien's views and how some of it is in the books but still love these books and the movies. You even do that in the video that it's important to keep Tolkien's views in mind as you read the books. Also while it's perfectly fine to prefer Dune or other fantasy stories over LOTR, saying that "people should grow out of LOTR" and that it's "a bit of a red flag" and that complex people would not like LOTR is not a good mentality to have. Sure there are awful people who misinterpret LOTR for their own awful views but there are also many good people who have done great things who also like LOTR. If you prefer Dune or A Song of Ice and Fire then that's cool, more power to you.

[@bluester7177]

I don't think he meant you need to grow out of LOTR, and more that you should probably grow out of things you liked as a child/teen.

[@midgetwthahacksaw]

​@@bluester7177Since when is LotR for children? It's not children's literature. It's not even remotely written as such. Tolkien wrote it, for his friends he lost in the War and, above else, for himself. It wasn't written for money or for scholar. He published it because he could but expected nothing from it except his own personal satisfaction. It's written by a professor, FOR a professor, and it reads like it too. That's why so many DON'T like it's writing style. It's written in the vain of humankind's most ancient and earliest writing and there's nothing childlike at all about it. C.S Lewis wrote the line about putting away childish things but followed it up with how secure and true people don't need to in order to be an adult.

[@mrpowers3649]

I still love LOTR but it's not where I go to think. It's a wonderful place for me to go, not think about the complexities of the world, and just enjoy a simple battle of good and evil. What I'm getting at is there is beauty in simplicity and it's a lovely place to go if you're looking for something less mentally taxing...That's what I think at least.

[@DavidEllis94]

Honestly, the more I learn about deeper Legendarium lore, the more it resonates with me as an adult. When I was a kid, it was an epic, awe-inspiring trilogy that captured my attention and never let go. As an adult, I'm just more and more in tune with the deeper themes that Tolkien worked into his writing, and I just love it more, not only for its optimism but also just for the incredible depth of the mythology.

[@AW-uv3cb]

@@bluester7177 He kinda expressly say "if you still say LOTR is your favourite and you're an adult, you should probably grow out of it". Even if it was for children, there's nothing wrong with loving the things you loved as a child, so that attitude in itself is a bit patronising. I will always say that LOTR is one of my favourite books, even if I haven't re-read them for many years after I grew up and on the last reading recently they didn't have quite the same impact as decades ago (possibly partly due to the fact that I'm not religious anymore so some elements hit different) - but it had such a profound significance for me when I was growing up and shaped me and my imagination in so many ways. It definitely deserves a permanent spot among books that I list as my favourites. And it in no way means that I'm unable to or don't enjoy books that delve into more shaded and complex aspects of humanity and society.

[@alejandronieto4212]

Mfs pretending to be Aragorn while acting as proud servants of Sauron.

[@camelopardalis84]

Aesthetics over substance or something like that, I guess?

[@sandpiperr]

Yep!

[@HBVS1]

No, they aren't, you're ignorant.

[@Glitter_H_Hoof]

melkor did nothing wrong

[@psantini2968]

Yeah, everyone goes through a period when they think they have outgrown LOTR - then, when you acquire a few extra layers, you grow back into it. THAT'S why it's a classic. Btw, Tolkien's depiction of the Orcs as an evil race is down to the fact that they were bred by Morgoth and Sauron - they were not inherently evil until the forces of darkness corrupted them. You ascribe a lot of the views of the typical person of the time to Tolkien, but neglect to mention that, for example in his letter responding to Nazi enquiries about whether he was Jewish, he showed himself to be ahead of his time and remarkably free from its prejudices. He also expresses opposition to the racism in S'Africa in his letters to his son.

[@bluester7177]

Am I the only person who watched the movies, read the books then never came back to it ever?

[@Lootaful]

I think it's kinda of a phase during your early to mid 20's where things that are "too simple" aren't as good as complex and deep things.

[@willmosse3684]

@@Lootaful yeah

[@VentureHolly]

Yeah but you can’t deny it’s suss af the way the good guys are always described as “fair” and the bad guys it’s always “swarthy” this and “slant-eyed” that. I think British people have always been culturally adverse to *overt* forms of racism, especially when it’s close to home. It’s considered “vulgar”. That’s why we perfected microaggressions to an art form.

[@willmosse3684]

@@VentureHolly That's definitely true. Totally classist too - workers and peasants all know their place and doff their caps to their betters. But, we are dealing with a work written by an upper class Englishman who was born while Queen Victoria was on the throne. Being relatively progressive on social issues for his time, at least compared to what he could have been, is still going to leave him a long way behind 2020s progressive values. It's impossible it could be otherwise. But we can't throw out all works of art that reflect views that don't comport to current eithical standards, or we will never be able to enjoy anything more than about 20 years old. Stuff that was progressive when it was written in the 90s is already problematic by today's standards, let alone stuff that was written in the 40s. We need to note those issues, and what they tell us about where we come from, but then be able to enjoy the magical creative spectacle we have been given.

[@robbaldwin2402]

I like the part where you chuckle at The Scouring of the Shire chapter, where a colonial power subjugates an entire people, forces them into a capitalist system in which they have no power, and totally devastates their natural environment. Wacky that the hobbits fought back against that.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

The Scouring of the Shire, with it's 'gathering' and 'sharing', represents Tolkien's dismay at the Labour victory and defeat of Churchill in the British general election of 1945. Fight me.

[@rosabellavitaalvarez-calde5836]

Also, when the hobbits come back they are able to lead the rebellion only because they sensed that the Shire was ready to fight back, that they hated the oppression. The books also state that part of the reason why the Shire was left alone for so long was in part due to protection by the Rangers. There is also a curious imperialistic twist - I am pretty sure that Saruman also invaded the Shire to get hold of their pipeweed!

[@commentator-tl9h]

The real reason they love LOTR is because they secretly love Sauron. That’s who they’re modelling.

[@zxyaayxp9310]

lmao peter thiel literally named his company "palantir" like no yeah great idea to name your cyber spy company after the evil wizard orb that makes people go insane and turn evil

[@TheIrland09]

They also consider the orcs as a stand in for whatever minority they see as disrupting civilisation.

[@lonesavior]

I remember during the Iraq war, one American politician (It might have been Rick Santorum) described the war in LOTR terms, but the metaphor made America Mordor and Iraq Gondor.

[@ImaJunkyoBell]

Nuance needed. The natural assumption about a geek wearing a "one does not simply Telnet into Mordor" shirt is that he probably also likes D&D, RPG's, video games, etc. Ascribing conservatism onto such a person is just brainless partisan tribal projection. Even for tech CEO's who vote conservative now for their own economic interests - where's the evidence it's Sauron admiring dictatorial wish fulfillment and not just their favorite cultural thing from childhood?

[@youteacher78]

Russia has been churning out LOTR fanfiction for decades now, portraying Mordor as the good guys. NFKRZ did a video on this recently.

[@1MarkKeller]

The Right seem to love all good movies for the wrong reasons. It's like we're watching two different movies ... which kinda explains their detatchment feom reality as well.

[@lettuceman9439]

Which section of the Right, Because Tolkein was socially Conservative and a Localist i.e Centre-Right even a Distributist. Christians, Catholics specially aswell are generally right-leaning and Tolkien was pretty forward that he subconsciously and intentionally put Catholic themes in his work. I generally believe you meant nationalist and Far right but the right spectrum is generally composed of Conservatives, Moderates and Libertarians, Most are due to Poverty, Traditions and Religion. Because I Tolkein made LOTR as a Mythology for England with it's aristocratic traditions and as Escapism, Meaning every is entitled to their opinion on it except if your very delusional like majority of the far-right.

[@1MarkKeller]

@lettuceman9439 Which section of the Right? All of it, they all have the problem to varying degrees.

[@juggaloclownpreacher]

I like Lord of the Rings but I understand it's more of a veterans perspective. And you shouldn't label a movie as a red flag, A movie has many different appeals to many different people, Yes there are the ones who just love the violence and the death, But then there are the ones who love the story the brotherhood the hope And if you're going to just throw people away over just one little thing Then you are no different than the puritanical right.

[@bluester7177]

People can label whatever they want as a red flag, I don't watch movies, at all anymore, some people have said to me that's a red flag, it's fine, it's their personal opinion.

[@moustik31]

Lol.

[@dang1099]

Its not the movie thats a red flag, its the weird love for such a movie thats kind of a red flag. Of course you need context, which kav provided. Idk, but one could say OPs comment is a red flag, lol.

[@legion999]

The battles and fights are well done, I don't see why someone wouldn't like them. Nothing fash about movie fantasy violence of this kind(unless you're watching birth of a nation). But if you're only here for that, you'd be disappointed, lotr is the whole thing

[@juggaloclownpreacher]

@@legion999 I'll put it this way everybody has opinion just like Everyone has a a****** just some opinion stink like s***. Have a nice day.

[@jeffeastwood1051]

This explains why all the bigots comment and slash at any new LOTR related projects as "woke". Ive noticed those LOTR post are extremely vile lately. Whats really ironic is that the entire overarching premise of LOTR and the HOBBIT covered racism. The Elf Vs Dwarf racsim. Gimili Vs Legolas, and Orcs Vs Orc Racsim. Sauron Vs Men. There was plenty of it. Tolkien hated bigotry and violence against nature and each other.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

The thing is it was made before they were born they first read it or watch the movies when they were children. This means they didn't think about culture war nonsense when they first interacted with it and therefore automatically put it in as good media. The fact that it is quite anti-war, people cry quite a lot and Aragon is written as a role model with very non-toxic masculinity traits. Washes over them.

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

Also, Viggo Mortensen is the best Aragorn EVER!

[@lowpolyzoe]

I don't think it's fair to say liking LOTR is a red flag? LOTR is huge. A lot of people like LOTR. My partner is in his thirties and reading through it for the first time and getting weepy over the closeness of the male characters with each other. Tolkien was obviously not unproblematic but describing his beliefs as full-stop conservative seems unhelpful, given he was anti-industralist and anti-war. It's not helpful to categorize it as "fascists can read onto this" or "leftists can read onto this". People are obviously influenced by media but they aren't stupid, people know black and white morality isn't how the world works but I don't necessarily think it's an objectively bad choice for a story. I can think of video games aiming for grey morality having to awkwardly shrug and give their fascist faction concessions so they aren't just full stop The Bad Guys, and, is that really a good thing? I really think you're colouring your experience by your personal history with LOTR being something you watched/read as a kid, but that isn't everyone's experience. Again, my partner in his thirties who's reading it for the first time. There are absolutely people who need to expand their media palates beyond just children's media (a lot of people try to read too deep into children's cartoons as their sole media diet, for example) but I genuinely don't think LOTR is one of those things. Overall though I think queer folk have a stronger claim to LOTR than fascists co-opting it. Tolkien was a product of his time but he was by no means a fascist and we shouldn't just concede things to the right like this

[@subcitizen2012]

It's pretty hilarious he's getting all this engagement from people that missed his point.

[@mischr13]

@@subcitizen2012 ikr

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

Its not just escapist fantasy. Tolkien took it upon himself to create a world for his fictional languages and he knew England needed a New Mythology to get behind. Because King Arthur isn't real English myth it's actually derivative of French Folklore. So yeah.

[@annaa3772]

He used to want to do that, but abandoned the idea. His love for the English countryside and for Norse Mythology still comes through very strongly though.

[@KateeAngel]

King Arthur is based on native Brittonic celtic mythology. Yeah, there is a mythology for "England" but it is all in Welsh 😂

[@michaelkenner3289]

While "la morte d'Arthur" inspired the modern conception of King Arthur it's actually a very very late addition. Most of the original stories about King Arthur are Welsh in origin.

[@cjr-en4wr]

escapist fantasy with a racist subtext. end of discussion.

[@monkey39128]

@@cjr-en4wr "End of discussion". So you're completely closed off to any other point of view? How liberal of you.

[@roosterman84]

You should read Return of the King again, or check out The Silmarillion. Also his letters are very interesting, he himself was very conflicted about the inherent evil of both orcs and men.

[@TheAwesomeness1123]

You can tell he never read the books let alone The Silmarillion. Just watched the movies, maybe played some games, then eventually read some criticisms of it he latched onto. He couldn’t even rewatch the movies before doing this video.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

It's because they love the idea of there is only good and evil and good must vanquish evil. However, the books are much deeper than that, it acknowledges how people get corrupted by evil and that lifting that corruption is an important goal. When we look at his further written work and letters we see he goes further than this and even comes to slightly disagree with his own original writing of how rigid his category of evil was.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

I've interacted with a lot of Tolkien stans and a lot of them are Christians who gravitate to the simple good v evil themes. I've never heard of him rethinking the consequences of his world building like that. Do you have a source on that I can look up?

[@gogongagis3395]

Unfortunately you seem to have misunderstood it too - or at least to have taken an extremely reductive view. While you point out many of the more questionable elements (many of which the author himself grappled with in his lifetime), I’m very disappointed by the cherry-picking on display. The story centres kindness, mercy, friendship, community, forgiveness (and arguably even pacifism) as the absolute highest values one can embody. They are far more important than strength or power. It’s fair to say that this is inherently anti-fascist. But none of it is in the video. You stated that you haven’t read the books in many many years, and frankly it shows. Yet you have the confidence to lecture your audience on how childish, basic, and surface-level it is. Without bothering to do any primary research before making the video. You usually do better than this. Please do better than this.

[@gm9460]

He’s had to do some mental gymnastics because people he doesn’t like enjoy it. It’s can’t just be that it is really good and these people have misunderstood it or chosen another path (usually money) instead. That would be too simple

[@hunzukunz]

​​@@gm9460this is why i, as a leftist myself, absolutely hate this type of lefist activism. All that mental gymnastics, misinterpretation, misinformation etc. I can hate Ben Shapiro and still enjoy some of the things he does. And even agree with him on many things apart from the stuff i hate him for. If i found out Hitler said Lasagna is his favourite dish, im not going to stop enjoying it. But this dude here would probably make a whole video about why Lasagna is actually a bad dish and he would think twice about dealing with people who like it.

[@monkey39128]

@@hunzukunz You have the right idea. We can heal societal divides only by finding common ground. This whole "Us vs Them" rhetoric won't lead anywhere good.

[@Billpro25]

Just because the author grappled with the inherent contradictions of his faith, doesn't exempt him from modern criticism regarding his chosen symbolisms in his work. This isn't a case of throwing the baby out along with the bathwater however; Kavenancle might have one of the most balanced takes of Tolkien - even if he leans more on the critical side.

[@subcitizen2012]

Did you even watch the video?

[@FaelynDexter]

I'm 44, I still like the LotR books/movies...as an Escape. They aren't my favorite anymore, but I find that I don't have any single favorite film/franchise anymore. I like to watch and read for escape...I have enough politics and the like in my real life. (I am very progressive and extremely anti-authoritarian.)

[@yoonahkang7384]

Youre gonna find olitivs everywhere you look, my dear. Even ants have a political economic system

[@kongspeaks4778]

@@yoonahkang7384 when people say they don't see politics, they mean they don't want to see it because it makes them think a lot and they don't feel like thinking

[@cholst1]

@@kongspeaks4778 or you know... they mean "no current events and current politics", which most modern stuff reaaaallllllly like to weave into everything to seem "smart". When usually it just comes of as pandering or preaching to a choir and not very well thought out at all.

[@Darksnovia]

Seriously just because fascist love Lord of the rings does it mean people should just suddenly stop liking something because bad people like it? There's awful people that are fans of Star Wars does that make Star Wars fascists? More people should be exposed to other fantasy series besides Lord of the rings but telling people to grow up or that you can't be friends with people because they're a fan of something because pieces of human trash like it is immature.

[@monkey39128]

Even then "fascist" is a bit of a reach. The Daily Wire crew say lots of things I disagree with but I'm not sure I'd call them fascist.

[@Darksnovia]

​@monkey39128 everyone in the daily wire is a fascist you don't do genocide apologia and appear on Prager U without being a fascist.

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

​@@monkey39128 uh-oh....

[@insanum666]

​@@monkey39128 Not sure what your definition of fascist is but mine is ultra-nationalist, anti-lgbtq, white superiority, misogynistic, extreme (and ubsurd) views on masculinity, and support for political corruption and violence. I see all of that in the pubdits that talk their pieces at the daily wire

[@cjr-en4wr]

lol is star wars a fascist text? i really dont think so. lotr's is clearly a racist text tho. you can still like it as long as you know what its sub text is. a critical analysis is just an academic pursuit - how it effects you is down to you.

[@GraceWhip]

It's wild. LotR glorifies kindness, gentleness, and love. Violence is treated as the tragedy that it is, and that includes violence against nature and minorities!

[@JohnDRuddyMannyMan]

I think you might be missing the core of LOTR and its exploration of death. You’re correct in calling out these shallow right wingers for seemingly having such a simplistic take on LOTR in its whole Good vs Evil thing, but I’d be careful not to completely write it off because Dune has better politics. LOTR isn’t about politics; it’s about death, it’s about hope in the face of hopelessness. It certainly is flawed, and Tolkien’s colonial upbringing certainly makes for a couple of YIKES moments by today’s standards (which in itself requires critical thinking). I think given time, you might find the spiritual value in it again. ;)

[@schoolfreak32]

18:28 "They perceived themselves as the heroes of Tolkien's imagined Middle-Earth." THIS is "Why The Far-Right LOVE The Lord of the Rings": Main Character Syndrome. Why they consider "NPC" an insult. Fascism is just LARPing as your own Mary Sue.

[@Lucky_Dagger]

Yeah main character complexes are rampant in liberal and conservative spaces.

[@insanum666]

I think the black and white take is kind of weird. Sure the different races/collections/groups/factions of people in general are evil or good, but what about specific characters? What about Gollum? That character constantly tows the lines between good and evil, between the right thing to do, and controlling his impulses and corrupted nature. What about Boromir? Who was seen as a noble man and ultiimately drifts toward evil and corruption which ultimately leads him to his demise. Both Gollum and Boromir were characters that critics and fans would inclide in the western peoples analogy. And all these races attributed to Western ideologies DO NOT get along. Consider Legolas and Gimli, who were basically enemies and rascist toward each other in the beginning of the LOTR and eventually came together against a common struggle. Where does the analogy that Orcs are represented as the Mongols? Is that because there are a lot of them? Someone enlighten me on that one I think it's kind of ridiculous to call fans of the stories simplistic but then don't even explore hardly any of the nuance of the story and attribute all these weird analogies. Love a lot of your videos m8 but I think you dropped the bag on this one. But maybe I'm a LOTR nerd so of course I wont like it when you criticize my favorite stories

[@efffvss]

"Where does the analogy that Orcs are represented as the Mongols?" IIRC it comes from one private letter where Tolkien describes Orcs as looking like "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". It's a visual descriptor, framed in very late 19th/early 20th Century language. Note, it's not saying that Orcs look like Mongols, but rather that they take some aspects of Mongol appearance (admittedly seen as negative to a period European context) and ramp them up to 11. Sure, it's not 'good' to modern eyes, but it's a pretty weaksauce foundation upon which to base some of the criticisms of Tolkien I've seen online.

[@insanum666]

@@efffvss it's almost kind of offensive to attribute orcs to the mongols simply based on those appearance characteristics. It's like you said there isn't a basis for it. Similar to Rohan/Gondor/Lothlorien/Rivendell/Shire all considered westerm Europe because they are to the west of middle earth. But then again I have beef with the descriptions of goblins in the Harry Potter franchise because they are described as "crooked noses, pock-marked, cunning" and basically making them bankers. It kinda screams Jew stereotype but she has never come out and explicitly said that so I cant hold her to it.

[@Yummypoison0]

​@@efffvssyea why would a group he designed to look like Mongolians possibly have Mongolian inspiration?? Fckn SJW's right

[@XMysticHerox]

Problem here is. All those morally grey characters are "western". And yes "true evil" characters exist in his work. Many of them. And essentially every single one is a dark skinned orc or "from the east". It is borderline delusional to ignore this.

[@insanum666]

@@XMysticHerox That was my point. That the "good" characters aren't always good. On your point about the dark orcs. The goblins in the harry potter films look similar to very racist/antisemetic depictions of jewish people, does that mean that JK Rowling was being bigoted? She could've been but we can't say forsure. LOTR is fantasy based on realistic world building. Some stuff is going to run paralell with our real world and the brains ability to see those patterns does not make what you're seeing the actual intent of JRR Tolkien.

[@michaelkenner3289]

Also got to say that Dune with its outright homophobic screeds and delving into very weird sex fetish content by book five, maybe not the greatest comparison to make.

[@TheKavernacle]

I'm on book 5 now and its so crazy misogynistic - I think the homophobia (which I talked about in my last video) is second to the misogyny. But yeah not gunna write an essay here my 40 min video outlined most of my thoughts from the first 4 books

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

@@TheKavernacle Herbert also seems like he had an agenda when writing the "Dune" series!

[@TheKavernacle]

yep Herbert had a political agenda primarily - Tolkien's politics aren't as clear

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

@@TheKavernacleYeah, old J.R.R. was a lot more subtle, that's why I like him!

[@gm9460]

@@TheKavernacleTolkien’s politics are not part of the book.

[@commentator-tl9h]

If not fascism, what are the very different and diverse (free) peoples of Middle Earth fighting against? (And I agree we should not be projecting a political reading onto LOTR; but since you ask, I think that’s what you can most reasonably project on to it, particularly with the backdrop of having been written in the aftermath of WWII; not a leftist politics but an anti-fascist politics. And we should definitely not cede the space to fascists to claim LOTR for themselves!)

[@coasterblocks3420]

My understanding from watching documentaries where Tolkien was interviewed is that he was sad for the near total destruction of ancient mythology of the British isles and wanted to create his own mythology with fantasy creatures to compensate in his own way that loss.

[@gm9460]

And the left hate that because they think people are trying to create some kind of “whites only” origin story. Which was never Tolkien’s plan. But it would be what they accuse these “bad people” of doing

[@matheusavila2688]

You just admitted not going back to the books and movies since you were younger, I think your impressions of a black and ehite shallow wolrd are your own shortcomings from not going back to Tolkien's works as an adult. I cannot belive you've read something like the Silmarillion and then came out of the experience with these ideas.

[@XMysticHerox]

There is moral ambiguity in Tolkiens work but it is absolutely correct that many characters are inherently evil. And yes these characters are generally "from the east" or dark skinned orcs.

[@OkByeNw]

It's a little cringe that you disregard LOTR for being to simplistic. Yeah, it's a story of definite good vs definite evil. That doesn't mean it isn't complex or have interesting things to say about morality, those conflicts just aren't taking place between the bad guys and the good guys. It's a discussion between all the people on the side of good. There is no one good in LOTR. The dwarfs have different ideas about morality from the elves. Same goes for men.

[@willmosse3684]

I think you need to be able to read books that come from a different era without getting upset that they have a now outdated seeming narrative structure (or politics, but that’s a different matter). Wanting Fantasy to be about shades of grey, and not black and white goodies and baddies, and to take into account the complexities of racial and gender dynamics etc., is a very post 1990s view of the genre. In the mid to late 90s you start to get people like George RR Martin and Joe Abercrombie writing in gritty “realist” ways so as to deconstruct the classic fantasy tropes. And yeah, that stuff is cool af. But it’s pretty reductive to completely reject the previous more naive and simple fantasy works. If you can drop your full time politicising for a bit, the Lord of the Rings novels are a beautiful romance of a dreamlike otherworld. Let go of your constant fight against discrimination for a couple of hours every now and then and get lost in something wonderful.

[@dragoncongrelos]

Well, all those guys also happen to have 2 legs, 2 arms... Many people like LOTR, it is not that uncommon.

[@SeasideDetective2]

Tolkien was indeed a conservative, but more of a "flower child" sort of conservative (hence the many 1960s hippies who embraced the LOTR trilogy) than a Reaganite/Thatcherite/Trumpite. He would not approve of a confirmed technophile like Elon Musk. And he'd be VERY suspicious of 21st-century capitalism. Tolkien's works, by the way, are anything but fascist. Politically speaking, they are what I would call "soft monarchist." The ruling classes are socially superior, but they also allow the common people to preserve traditional freedoms. Tolkien reflects the "enlightened" conservatism of Plato and certain other philosophers. Fascism rejects all freedom, even for the "superior" people. It does away with transcendent religion and replaces it with ethnic cultism. And it calls for limitless urban and technological development and glorifies brutality. Fascism's "blood and soil" doctrine SOUNDS traditional, but it has far more to do with post-Renaissance modernism and romanticism than with ancient wisdom. And fascists promote social and cultural conservatism because they allow them to keep the "lower orders" under control, not because they genuinely long for "the good old days."

[@lettuceman9439]

Flower kind? Tolkein was a unconstitutional Monarchist and a Localist, While He still used Latin even after Vatican 2 and hated Cars. Not arguing just clarifying he wasn't some flower conservative, He was a strict Traditionalist.

[@SeasideDetective2]

@@lettuceman9439 Exactly. And American conservatives are not strict traditionalists. They have fused nostalgic ideas about the past (many of which are mistaken) with neoliberal capitalism. True conservatism has more in common with England's tradition of "Tory socialism" than with modern middle-class life.

[@dyne313]

I love how you tried to naturalize liking Lotr less as you get older. I saw Fellowship when I was 16 years old. And I love it even more now, because of how amazing of a movie they are. Liking it less isn't something natural. It's just you bro.

[@gothpotato]

To be fair the older I get the better media I found, to me personally berserk is just a much better version of lord of the rings with more complex characters, moral and writhing

[@Yummypoison0]

I like it less now that I'm older 💁🏼‍♀️ not bad just...is

[@bluester7177]

I think you can find people with all kinds of opinions, that's his. In my case, I found it meh when I watched it /read it when I was 16, and I still find it mostly meh now, it's good as white noise, because it's long.

[@mischr13]

nah, I'm with Kav. It was one of my fav movies (I also saw it as a teenager) and I watched them many, many times. now, I'm much less enthusiastic about it. it's still good but it's not the best thing ever and the morality is so simplistic. I feel like I grew out of it a bit. still like it, and it's a beautiful piece of work

[@dyne313]

@@mischr13 Just because you like it less than you did, doesn't mean that's what naturally happens to everybody. That's why Kav is wrong. Not because of how much he likes it or doesn't like it. Because of his suggestion that liking it less as you grow older is some kind of natural response.

[@Philip271828]

Because the films were HUGE when they were young. Next question. Eta. If you come back in 20-25 years they will probably love Dune.

[@Derkuhlshrank]

Lost me on this one Kav. Crusty "I need gritty to be interested" takes and ips are also incredibly played out. Like a person that can't like dnd if there's no racism/class struggles is not a fun person to play with. Sometime we just want goofs and gaffs. Also women had more civil rights under the pre Norman society, so yeah it is kinda a horrible thing.

[@willmosse3684]

Yeah, agreed

[@Colddirector]

I hate "gritty" fantasy, but I love when a bit of the real world is injected into it. Stuff like how magic would be legally regulated and the political fallout of major story events. I think it adds a lot of interesting fun texture to a fantasy world, and I kinda despise how it's been conflated to having everything be grey and depressing.

[@lancelotto475]

The one thing I dislike about LOTR was how the orcs are the bad guys. I like fantasy where it isn't not just humans (or elves or dwarves) that get to go on adventures and fight evil.

[@bacaestrife3615]

I don't believe he said gritty, mostly just that he wanted a more complex morality and less essentialism, cause essentialism is gross.

[@lonesavior]

@@lancelotto475 I believe Tolkien himself didn't like the idea of an "evil" race, which is why their origin was never fully settled on.

[@garrettbarry2547]

I disagree that lotr only portrays pure good and pure evil. You say that Greek epics are more interesting because the gods and other characters are flawed but there are many flawed characters in lotr. Boromir who does something bad but is able to be forgiven and redeem himself and die good. Gollum who literally is battling with his inner good and evil the whole story. Denethor is portrayed more blatantly bad in the movies but is more grey in the books. A lot of the theme of the lotr imo is based on resisting the temptation of evil and many characters struggle with that the whole story and some fail.

[@NaritaZaraki]

I highly recommend reading "Tolkien, Race, and Racism in Middle-earth" by Robert Stuart for an academic exploration of the topic. The way colonial era racialization, colonial era anti-racism, and crucially, the way class intersect in the life of one deeply religious linguist's life to produce the depictions of Race that we see in the Legendarium is genuinely so fascinating. Especially when considered through the decades long stretch of time it took to write this world. Considering how influential Tolkien was/is to the SFF space as a whole, I would recommend engaging with this material even for those who've never been interested in or familiar with his works. As for my personal views, I think LotR (compared to the rest of his works in particular) is plagued with the ... uhh let's say "Superman" trappings?? As in, the same way that any critical engagement with Superman as an icon will immediately run you headfirst into the ubermensch implications/readings? Yeah. LotR has very prominent elements that readily reads as a far-right wet dream. But. There is also a wealth of reasons why a significant portion of both of their fanbases are firmly center to leftwing. Textual AND authorial reasons. Without turning this into some petty back and forth fest when I do generally actually agree with your points about what the appeal for the far-right in Tolkien's work is, I would simply recommend engaging leftist fans discourses and analysis that might help you see (if interested) what the appeal still is for us and how it exists in tandem and in tension with the more problematic™ elements/readings. Edit: to be clear, when I say I see the appeal for the far-right, I do mean the far-right in the sense of nationalists, traditionalists, white supremacists, etc. Tech-bros are just off their rockers honestly. There is nothing in there for them.

[@Gromkiii]

The Kavernacle basically explain, why people like him made rings of power modern politic in brilliant writing lol.

[@X_TheHuntsman_X]

Man, I love Lord of the Rings... I'm reading it again right now.

[@dyne313]

This is the WORST video Kavernackle has done. He told his friends who still love it to "grow up". He tried naturalizing liking it less as you get older.

[@augustaseptemberova5664]

@@dyne313 dude, chill lol. i see several comments of yours with you getting upset about k's take. you're taking this whole thing way too seriously.

[@cjr-en4wr]

@@augustaseptemberova5664 its ok to like lotr's, as long as you aware its a very racist text.

[@X_TheHuntsman_X]

@@cjr-en4wr It is certainly eurocentric, but I'm not sure I'd qualify it as racist. That's pretty reductive. I think that is a take that equates color to race within a social construct (which can be considered a racist take within itself). However, halflings, elves, dwarves, and humans are all definitively separate "races" in the world of Middle Earth. They all have different origins and they do not come from the same point of origin beyond being created by the same god, except for dwarves which are created by an entirely separate god. In that view, the fellowship is a multicultural and multiracial, if not multi-colored, group that comes together for a shared purpose and struggle. As far as orcs are always bad, well yes, within Middle Earth, they were created by the an evil god to suit his purposes. They don't even have much higher functioning reason beyond what they need to channel the will of Sauron. Idk, I just think folks read too much into it. Tolkien wrote it to be a very simple good/evil fable. He was very much against parables and overt symbolism, and while he said the text was a Christian text, I'd say it is that only insofar as it is a tale of good versus evil. Is it perfect, no, but I don't think the origins of fascism can be found in the text not anything to back up fascism or even racism. It's just a story that is popular and appeals to people across the political divide. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I'm as Marxist as they come. 🤷

[@fee6362]

@@X_TheHuntsman_X As much as I love lotr, it has some.. undertones. For exemple Tolkien himself recognized that the dwarfs were somewhat problematic. I mean they were low key based on not-see caricatures of Jewish people. And the idea of races to be born a specif way has also some undertones.

[@alansmith4655]

Anyone one sits down to watch LOTR from a political point of view is demented.

[@HarrisonTheGrey]

I think you were supposed to release this on April 1st. What an absolute joke.

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

Jesus Christ Ben. What "Western" Civilization is in the Lord of the Rings. The Entire World is called Middle Earth. And that terminology is an allusion to Norse Myth

[@glitchedoom]

He means white people.

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

You didn't read the books, obviously.

[@MannyBrum]

​@@UnfollowYourDreams You're the one that hasn't read them. Middle Earth is a continent yes, but Aman, one of the other two continents was where the Valar and Maiar lived and was a holy place, Oronto or the Land of the Sun was an empty, barren land beyond the eastern sea where the paths of the Sun and Moon lay according to legend. Both the western and eastern cultures of Arda lived in Middle Earth. After the fall of Numenor, Illuvatar removed Aman from Arda and pushed back Oronto further. It's not likely anyone settled there ever. In the real world people settled most of the continents but they originated in a smaller area and spread out when the continents were pretty much right next to each other. Oronto was always far from Middle Earth and by the time people had ships they likely would have seen the land was barren and it would be almost impossible to thrive there, especially as settlers.

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

@@MannyBrum did you just say the continents were "pretty much right next to each other" 200k years ago? Bruhh...

[@cjr-en4wr]

oh god there's gonna be a ton of lotr's losers here that just cant accept what the text is about. it's ok to like it but it is clearly about racial superiority.

[@weedcandy5191]

I am very much left, and I love the lord of the rings. But I agree, I guess we couldn't be friends, because saying a story without much grey moral space in it is a "red flag" because it erases the idea of a perfect victim. (Beside the point that if you don't think there is enough grey morality, you clearly don't know the book enough) It erases the notion that some deeds and perpetrators are pure evil without redeeming qualities. I would say it is anti fascist if we remember that it was written during WW2, and I don't think anyone is going to argue who was the perfect villain back then. There was evil, and then there were very much flawed - but still humanly so - good. At least in comparison. There are situations where only black and white interpretation is morally acceptable. Like r@pe or war in Ukraine - or many more atrocities and wars, and if you don't think that's the case, we really can't be friends.

[@jorgecas5678]

Yep, LOTR has a plenty of grey characters: Boromir, Denethor, Grima Warmtongue (a bit), Gollum, and nearly all of the First Age characters from The Silmarillion.

[@subcitizen2012]

He's not criticizing the stories lol. He's criticizing the way people read into them. He's not saying it's inherently fascist, he's saying fascists think it is. Have a problem with fascists, okay? We're all allies out here. You shouldn't be engaging with parasocial relationships in the basis of whether or not you would be friends with people anyway.

[@weedcandy5191]

​Dude, I just used what he said. Both the "friends" thing and division. And criticising a person is not division. It is a check that political groups should engage in to prevent radicalisation and echo chambers. "Friends" is just an instrument here. 1. It's weird to pick friends on the basis of WhaT yOur FAvOri​tE MovIE saYS AboUT YOu- again, figuratively. Just because people reached two different conclusions about a movie doesn't mean their moral compass is different, but their method of analysis is. 2. Maybe you should actually seek out friendships with at least these mild differences, because it creates less issues than it brings positive reasons for reflection. What I was saying is that being or not being friends with a person based on superficial interpretation of person's interpretation of something and calling it a red flag on top is decisive and stupid.@@subcitizen2012

[@andtalath]

The morality is actually way more complex than many people give it credit for. Just not regarding who the bad guys are (and that's the ones twisted by evil incarnate). But who the Good guys are and why? That is honestly quite interesting and quite weird, and gives great insight into Catholicism.

[@willmosse3684]

This is a one sided view of LOTR. It’s not what Tolkien himself was aiming for, but these books first took off as a cultural phenomenon by becoming part of psychedelic hippie culture. When I was first reading it in the late 80s and early 90s, I didn’t even know about this fascist appeal that apparently existed at the same time. I knew it because it had been a LSD peace and love thing in the late 60s and early 70s - my parents’ generation. I think that was a bigger part of LOTR’s cultural history than the fascist thing you are painting it as.

[@XMysticHerox]

The anti modernism is certainly more prevalent but that does not mean the racialism does not exist in Tolkiens work.

[@willmosse3684]

@@XMysticHerox for sure, I don’t dispute that at all. It is there. But I think you’d be hard pushed to find a European born in the 1890s who didn’t have problematic race views by 2020s standards. Or even by 1980s standards. But I don’t think it’s productive to write off everything produced by these earlier generations as inherently fascist because of this. It has to be taken in the round.

[@XMysticHerox]

@@willmosse3684 Who said anything about fascism? The video is about fascist liking LoTR which is true. It never calls LoTR itself fascist. Considering the first thing you wrote in your comment is that the video is a "one sided view" I also think it is quite weird to now pretend you do not dispute the racialism when that is all that the video really says about LoTR itself. The anti modernism is even acknowledged. I can't really tell if you are deliberately strawmanning here or just didn't pay enough attention.

[@willmosse3684]

@@XMysticHerox that wasn’t my interpretation of Kav’s argument. I think he was arguing that LOTR is popular with fascists because it is inherently close to being a fascistic work.

[@XMysticHerox]

@@willmosse3684 He said that it appeal to fascist because Tolkiens views of racialism are entirely compatible with fascism. Which is true. Nothing in LoTR really contradicts fascism so it is unsurprising fascists identify with it considering most popular media to some degree reject their ideology. You have failed to explain how the video presents a one sided view btw.

[@sewpungyow5154]

I never actually got into LOTR, but if I understand correctly, the amount of worldbuilding in that series is insane. Empires rising and falling, language evolving, culture changing, people migrating... I can see why people would find that interesting. People love that stuff IRL, they obsess over philology, philosophy, macroeconomics, world history, etc. Now put magic and fantasy on top, and yeah, it makes sense

[@higglyjuff]

I think this video fails because it tries to tie one of the most broadly popular franchises to the right when it is literally one of the most broadly appealing franchises across the board. Nothing wrong with being a mega fan of LOTR just like there isn't a problem with loving Harry Potter or Pokemon. I think it's weird how you do this and it often feels like you try to put up barriers on nonsensical lines. Liking Black Myth Wukong doesn't make you a dickhead right winger like the devs (Chances are most of the devs aren't as much of a dickhead as the more vocal ones). Liking Harry Potter doesn't make you transphobic. Liking Lord of the Rings doesn't make you a right winger. Trying to infer ones politics from the fantasy worlds they engage with is really stupid.

[@subcitizen2012]

He's not criticizing the series. He's criticizing the right for how they engage with it. Very different things. You're missing the point because you're so defensive about the series. Which seems to be part of the point he's making. Maybe don't take this shit so seriously that you have to reflexively defend it.

[@higglyjuff]

@@subcitizen2012 ​ Except he did criticise the series for being too one dimensional good vs evil, idealising monarchies and hierarchy and even tried to argue the orcs were some representation of a mongol horde or something etc. And while this is certainly an interpretation you can have, it doesn't mean he's correct. Trying to tie this in to being right wing is what makes this weird. The Shire for example is a more utopian socialist society. The portrayal of masculinity in the books and movies is entirely atypical from traditional right wing framing. The fact that most of this fictional world united to stop Sauron is surely a message of unity. You could just as easily take a left wing framing from Tolkien's works or from the movies. Hell, my original comment wasn't defending LOTR. I was defending all media and the ability to interpret it in multiple ways, from authors that often provide a multitude of ways to interpret it. Kavernacle seems to have a recurring issue of doing this thing where he not only can't separate the art from the artist, but also can't separate the fans from the artist. People are complex, the media we create is complex. Right wingers liking something doesn't mean the thing they like is right wing and vice versa, especially in the case of broadly popular media.

[@Theomite]

I'm Gen X. Growing up in the 20th there was a lot of post-WWII, post-Vietnam context applied to a lot of media analysis. _LOTR,_ _Dune,_ and _Foundation_ (among others) were seen as landmarks of imagination in a time period when society didn't really value that. *That was the source of our love of it.* But just like in STAR WARS, the audience was prompted into considering how Good could become Evil through the powerful temptation of negative emotions. Conservatives complained about Moral Relativism, but it was a key factor in this whole moral scaffold of the Hero's Journey. Even cartoons of the 80s dealt with the issue of succumbing to evil by forgetting your humility. After 9/11, Moral Absolutism came back in a big way that affects Left and Right alike. That scares the hell out of people like me, and has recontextualized these works into something that we First & Second Generation nerds didn't really see or value. These Silicon Valley douchebags are doing what we used to do as in-jokes and "secret handshake" stuff to fellow nerds back in the day. It was in-house stuff for people already in the know. This whole "basing your life off of ___" would've been insane even to us back then.This co-opting of these works into bullshit modern political tracts instead of literary masterpieces risks destroying them and their contributions to global creativity. I love LOTR...but I love it for what it is--a fucking *fantasy* that set a standard for worldbuilding--not for its political utility.

[@spantigre3190]

Lord of the rings isn’t a good story to fascists. It’s the world they want to create.

[@carlosjuliop]

I guess we won't be friends? LOTR made me an atheist (The Silmarillion, to be precise) and deeply informed my sense of morality and masculinity and friendship and heroism and compassion (remember that Gandalf speech about NOT taking someone's life?). It's not a perfect story but I hope I never "grow out" of it. Right wing nut jobs can't have Tolkien. P.D., love The Witcher too, but I'm sorry, Geralt's got nothing on Aragorn or Gandalf.

[@grundelfish4256]

So, the problem here isn't that you're talking against a particular piece of art, it's that you're trying to police people's likes. "I don't think you should like this--if you do, then you're bad. And we're not friends anymore." Cool. You make some great points here about Tolkien. As you did with Taylor Swift. And Frank Herbert. And...who knows what else. But, I'm sorry, your opinions are not the best opinions. They're...opinions. And trying to fit everyone into a very small box of what can and can't be liked is rather self-glorifying, given that you're the one who's decided the size and shape of the box. I think I'm...yeah. I'm out. Loved your videos. Really have. But I also still love Lord of the Rings...so, I don't think we're friends anymore.

[@timmysleftnutsack5075]

He was never your friend, you have a para social relationship with him it seemed

[@TheAwesomeness1123]

Damn I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with your videos until now, LOTR is massively popular so of course a lot of people, fascists included, like it. Sure all the worst people may like it, all the best people like it too. There’s nothing wrong with it being your favorite movie series. There’s sometimes a nice simplicity to pure fantasy movies with good vs evil stories. You can have that be your favorite without being a fascist. Doesn’t mean you think LOTR is a better real life allegory than Dune just cause you like it more. Maybe you should’ve rewatched before making video if you haven’t seen in 12 fucking years.

[@mileswright7294]

I'm a progressive lefty lib and I own the One Ring made by the same folk who made the Ring for the films. Every time I encounter a right wing LotR fan, it boggles my mind. Granted, Tolkien valued applicability rather than ordaining it with his own interpretation. So each person comes to it in their own way. But I feel like a LOT of obvious points get lost on the right wing fans.

[@gm9460]

Consider that it is good and not everyone deep reads for messages and open your mind a little. Then you will understand why there are right wing fans

[@mileswright7294]

​@gm9460 it's not that I don't understand this, it's that it leaves me perplexed when someone says they love the story, but fail to identify or engage with any of the thematic material that makes it so rich. So when someone says they're a fan or LotR and a right winger, I don't take issue with that on its face. But I usually find the most anachronistic takes from people who lean right and espouse their love Tolkienian themes that run contrary to those right wing values. I'm familiar with Catholicism, but that's not inherently right wing. So I can see overlap. I just struggle making sense of someone being ultra racist and yet the whole 'fellowship' theme is lost on them. I don't find that a particularly deep and obscure message. It's pretty much baked into the whole pie. And yet, there are deeply racist fans of Tolkien.

[@Alundolant]

I disagree with a lot of this about Tolkien, but to keep it brief: the main villians in Tolkien arent bad because they are an evil race, they are bad because they choose to be. Eg, Sauron, Morgoth, Gollum, Denethor, Numenor, the kinslaying, etc. Sure, Tolkien has evil army fodder, but thats not really the point, and if you dont get that i think you are not paying attention.

[@blackeyedlily]

Of course at the same time that the Italian fascist were celebrating LOTR, the Counterculture movement of the 60s and 70s in the United States embraced it as well.

[@subcitizen2012]

And a lot of those hippie boomers moved on to become evangelical fundamentalist Christians and GOP conservatives.

[@bakeliteperformance]

Middle age left leaning Tolkien nerd here. I've spent decades working in the trenches of society with social services and LotR has always been a helpful guide for me as an individual. I've long held to an ethos of "What would Gandalf/Frodo do?" in how I do my work with marginalized people. The great lesson of LotR for me has always been humility and all the positive downstream effects it has in working with others. Is Tolkien problematic in various ways... yeah, but I take from it what helps me. I cherry pick, which is fine with me for my own use. I've read a lot of other literature, all sorts of fantastic work, however so much of it I would broadly categorize as "dysfunctional people doing dysfunctional things to each other". It is certainly cathartic, seeing someone else play out some particular emotional space I experienced in life that was very much shades of gray. It makes me reflect on myself, builds empathy for others making the mistakes they make, so it has value. However, in the challenging moments of my life, I want some orientation on how to be my best self, and so the black and white morality of LotR gives me a framework that is useful.

[@disturbedenvironmentalist2313]

As a leftist, I do like your analysis and I’m glad someone is willing to dive into it like you are. I do find myself sometimes frustrated with people who only consume escapist media, and don’t seem to like anything that reminds them of the real world. I like A Song of Ice and Fire and I like the Witcher a lot, but I still love the Lord of the Rings and no one is going to be able to take that away from me.

[@sargonsblackgrandfather2072]

No one is evil in the beginning, even Sauron thought he was the good guy bringing order to chaos, his obsession corrupted his heart and he uses the lure of power (to do good) to corrupt and enslave others.

[@king123426]

Love lotr and hate game of Thrones. I want to read something with hope and beautiful message even if it is “unrealistic”, can’t see how people after living this shit life we do can then again read something as depressing as game of thrones

[@Youcancallmeishmaell]

A part is because life isn't all sweet. Many people want the ups and down of life in their stories.

[@monkey39128]

I like both but yes GOT is quite grim at times.

[@leandromafe]

I would argue Boromir is a complex character. Maybe the most complex in the trilogy (Saruman is interesting as well). He is well meaning, a great captain, loved by his people, but he puts his nationalism before pretty much everything and that makes hin susceptible to the temptation of the ring. I'm not denying a lot of what you said, I unfortunately agree with most of it, but I think Boromir (and his extended family, fora that matter) are characters that should be looked at more closely, as he's not as black and white as most others in the books.

[@PrincessOzaline]

My hot take is that loving childish things (not specifically LOTR in my case though I sometimes like hearing about his legendarium) does not make one childish so long as you can recognize there's limits to the depth of them there is more than surface level stuff there if you look at things besides the main conflict that can be fun to examine, but yeah just kinda admit that yeah it's kinda silly and fun and soothing. I do agree that if someone consideres it the most important book ever they might be a little out there.

[@PrincessOzaline]

@Onlinerando Okay, I thought he said "hot take" at one point in the video in regards to the idea of people outgrowing LOTR, which is why I used it. Maybe he didn't and I'm misrembering. It is a silly thing to say that doesn't add any weight to the statement, I agree.

[@alias908]

whats up with people relating their political views to fictional works ?

[@cjr-en4wr]

seems like he was relating the authors political views to the fictional text. One of us must be a total moron (I think it's you).

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

@@cjr-en4wrI never got the impression that Tolkien was airing his political views while reading his work!

[@alias908]

​@@cjr-en4wr yes and how does this now contradict my comment ?

[@VincenzodeLeon]

@@ElizabethMcCormick-s2nno? Not the anti-industrialisation message? Nor the pro-monarchy and sacred bloodlines message? An artist’s work can never be completely divorced from their political views, regardless whether they liked and made use of allegory or not. If you’re not seeing any political messaging in the work, you might try reading the text again

[@yoonahkang7384]

Everything is political or can have a political interpretation. You might understand it in a few years more

[@MrTheLuckyshot]

I love LOTR. Reading the books was a seminal experience of my teenage years, and I even have a Tree of Gondor tattoo. I've never voted for a Republican and certainly won't be starting this November. So... eye of the beholder.

[@dhbomb]

My friend, I think you are suffering from edge-lord syndrome. Yes, as I grew up, I began to see that the world is a much more complex place than “we’re good and the people against us are evil” and I’m still grateful for unlearning a lot of those lies. But eventually, the morally gray stories that you are talking about like a song of ice and fire started to become boring to me. They hit a wall that stories like lotr don’t because that story has spirit and ideas that you can take with you to live a good life. Like Sam says “there’s good on this world that is worth fighting for” is a much more powerful idea than ones that criticize all of humanities flaws which still have a place. Not that I don’t like asoiaf-it’s one of my favorite series but I think it’s “intellectualism” holds it back in comparison to Tolkien

[@lisakristin1810]

I think there’s a lot to be said for both works. LOTR is more classical fantasy but it’s not ‘basic’ or clear cut noble knight vs evil monster. We see good people like Boromir corrupted by darkness and his recovery. The forces of evil in LOTR can be easily interpreted as the internal struggle humans have to deal with the good and evil that lives in all of us. Do you use the ring to keep your homeland safe? Do you use the atom bomb to end the war? (not saying it’s a direct allegory though lol) The setting is fantasy while the heart is human. Frodo’s journey and failure is poignant. The fact that he can’t truly be happy until he makes the choice to ‘go into the west’ is a pretty dark metaphor. And Asoiaf is not just edgy hehe you have to be ruthless and nobility/kindness gets you nowhere. GM has realistic critisisms of feudal society that Tolkien brushed over, but I don’t believe brutal realism is the point. Nor is it made to call out Tolkien, it’s just a different kind of story. It still has things to say about love and loyalty and kindness and good ruling, like how Ned’s subjects remains loyal to him after his death and are working to help his children and legacy. While Tywin’s death only causes chaos and infighting.

[@dhbomb]

@@lisakristin1810 yes, I agree with everything you said about lotr which is why I find this guys take that it’s “boring good versus evil stuff for kids” to be absurd because it’s SO much more than that. And I agree with what you said about asoiaf and lotr being two different kinds of fantasy stories. I guess I used it as an example to counter his point about “morally gray” stories like dune or the Witcher being better because they’re more “complex”. If it’s his opinion, that’s fine but I disagree with his dismissal of a “good v evil” (which again, it’s much more than that) story like lotr because they have their place too. Sometimes in this world there will be evil bad guys that want to take over your lands that you have to fight or it will mean the death of you, your family, friends, and maybe your entire people. But, the type of fantasy/sci fi that criticizes society and power structures that he prefers also has its place. At the heart of those stories, there is also a “good vs evil” narrative as well. I guess, however, I prefer stories that are more uplifting like lotr

[@Alundolant]

This is such a wild take on Tolkien and Tolkien's writings. Hard to know what to make of it since its not really like an argument with sources or citations. But thinking that Tolkien had a superficial black and white morality is just misreading the books. Also, Tolkien did have very particular views on English language and Anglo Saxon languages and his goal was to create a mythology for England because he thought it borrowed from the French and didnt have its own. ( Dont know if it was really so much about culture as language, but i am not an expert on tolkien. ) I mean, you can assert thst this is arbitrary because languages are always changing, but that's a silly bone to pick. He was obsessed with languages and made up a world to go along with it. Which...he can do whatever he wants, right? This isnt an academic argument, its fantasy. I do think its funny--and great--that the socialists thought Tolkien was on their side. He wasnt, but maybe they had more in common than his rigid conservatism would ever have allowed him admit, i imagine. But homeboy was just a rigid dude. He didnt like Narnia--that his friend wrote--because he didnt like the style that Lewis wrote it in. Like, basically because he thought the "world building " was bad. Like really??

[@223Drone]

"A movie bursting with so much manly compassion, you'll think you're watching Brokeback Mount Doom." -Honest trailers.

[@ericjohnson6665]

In high school (1968), my English teacher gave us extra credit for reading LOTR, which I took advantage of. My classmates and I learned the elvish language. We were huge fans of the whole thing. And as a hippie, Tom Bombadil was my favorite character. (Sadly, Jackson left that character out of his movies.) It was a battle of good over evil. Gollum was a particularly interesting character study of just how badly power can corrupt an individual, particularly a weak one like Smeagol. Sauron represented all the awful authoritarians who seek to throw the world into darkness, which, as a Democrat at the time, I took to represent many a Republican (still do). Thus, I confess to being surprised that these particular Republicans like it. Is it because they aspire to be the next Sauron? What am I missing?

[@rikubear6549]

So basically Tolkien saw that Britain in 19th century didn't have their own distinct mythology. The celts were put to the sword by the Roman's and later colonized by catholics and protestants. Sooo he is on record saying he wanted to create that for Britain. He was also inspired by WW1 and his experiences in the trenches. The bad guys are industrialism and good guys are nature.

[@joelhenry5489]

I am as anti-fascist as you can be, but Tolkien is closer to their ideology than any leftist ideology, and this is one instance where your critique of the right not being unable to understand the media they consume applies to the left. Apart from his obsession with racial hierarchy that is basically fantasy eugenics, Tolkien's villains are rebels against the established order. Melkor and Sauron are revolutionaries. Tolkien, who grew up in the time of British colonialism made the brown people the invaders and villains in his work. Compare that to George Lucas, who after Vietnam modelled the Empire after America.

[@TheKavernacle]

didn't watch the video because I literally said LOTR is way more conservative than anything leftist - Tolkien was a read Cath Franco supporter... which I spoke about

[@joelhenry5489]

@@TheKavernacle I did watch the vid. I'm not disagreeing with you. Your comment section is full of things like "the right wingers love Sauron" etc. That isn't true. The right is interpreting the text better than they are. I saw a right winger somewhere else commenting that "Tolkien would be turning his grave to see a brown elf". Sadly, that is the truth.

[@castillogrande8926]

Name a more iconic duo than reactionaries and media illiteracy!

[@moustik31]

😂

[@xani_was_taken]

In defence of like the LOTR trilogy: in terms of the movies the amount of human effort in set design and practical effects really isn't something we've seen on that scale since then. Dismissing love of the movies as childish is dismissing all that effort and the beauty they created. I can see not liking extremist right wing people using it as a prop for their trash politics. But the movies deserve all the non-fascist love they get ^^

[@TheKeyser94]

It seems that the new Lord of the Rings anime movie, really get many right-wingers furious, manly because the main character is a woman, apart that they portrayed the easterners as sympathetic, they weren't mindless idiots that joined Sauron for no reason, but this story happen two hundred years before the events of Lord of the Rings, and I think depict the beginning of a feud between Rohan and the Easterners, created a very bad blood between them and a wound that never heal.

[@jorgecas5678]

You are talking about Dunland? Because the Easterners are very far away from Rohan.

[@TheKeyser94]

@@jorgecas5678 Yeah, I didn't remember their name, but they always portrayed with an eastern aesthetic, with their war elephants and all.

[@leadleader2023]

I don't understand how so many people fail to understand the argument of the movie of JD Vance's life, Hillbilly Elegy. The entire movie is about how JD Vance's mother was genetically a genius, intellectually superior, and how JD Vance himself inherited her mother's superior genetics, and how even he, with his superior genetics, had to work 60 different jobs, all the while studying at Yale Law School for Fascists, to get himself out of generational poverty. So if you are born genetically superior, and there is only a 1% chance that you will be born with genius genetics, and then you also work 60 different jobs, and then you get accepted into Yale Law School... If JD Vance can do it. You can do it. All it takes, is just a little bit of work and dedication from you. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make something of yourself. Basically, Hillbilly Elegy accidentally demonstrates why JD Vance is a moron who doesn't understands anything, or why JD Vance is a racist bad faith actor who understands everything.

[@viktoria.p.777]

I think his book was ghostwritten by Peterson. The journey of the hero. The forlorn son the super intelligent hierarchy comes back from the despicable poverty despite huuuuuge obstacles to his rightful hierarchical place while all the losers remain at the bottom. Because they are lazy.

[@roosterman84]

You don’t know the mythology, which is different from the mythology not being complex. You don’t seem to know who the Valar are so your comparisons are shallow.

[@cjr-en4wr]

you gotta grow up one day bro, there's a world outside of your basement.

[@arnold-ho8kh]

​@@cjr-en4wr you're trying so hard to feign being someone who actually goes outside and socializes but you look so weird to people who actually do.

[@metalsonn]

@@cjr-en4wrwtf?

[@JARV9701]

I can see why, they saw Mordor and they want to replicate it; a bunch of deformed and mangled workers living in an industrial hellscape for an evil lord.

[@ibrahimali4390]

Nah LOTR does slap🤣

[@TheKavernacle]

the movies are great I am not denying it !

[@glIzlI]

@@TheKavernacle Read them as an adult, then try this video again. Your criticizing a shallow reading with your own shallow reading.

[@nicolocorbellani9807]

​@@glIzlIthe only shallow reading i see is your media comprehension

[@thehellyousay]

@@nicolocorbellani9807 aww, vicarious outrage function triggered?

[@thehellyousay]

@@TheKavernacle the movies are a violation of the literature. there is literally only one scene in any of the movies that has even a passing connection to the actual book.

[@rockinroller25]

I love lord of the rings cause it was my bonding experience with my dad. Growing up my dad used to read me The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings to bed when I was little. The way the far right infatuates themselves with Tolkien drives me up a wall. My bonding experience with my dad was always seeing the movies in the theaters with my dad. When I think of Tolkien’s writing I think of my dad and I’m not gonna let these reactionaries take that experience with my dad away from me.

[@BooksRebound]

The best fantasy series is Malazan Book of the Fallen and it sounds like it would be right up your alley, assuming you have a mind compatible with its style of throwing you into the deepend and expecting you to swim. The author is a canadian archeologist and anthropologist who created an original world for ttrpg campaigns he played with friends in college. Then years later he adapted the rpgs into books and theyre unlike anything else out there. It makes ASOIAF look tiny simple in comparison. In Eriksons own words, the books are a 3.5mil word plea for compassion.

[@hawkeyeplank]

Hell yeah! I read Malazan last summer and fall, such a stark departure from basically all the fantasy I had ever read. The roll of years grinding the characters into dust (no t'lan imass reference intended) and the manipulation by empires that are so far out of the realm of comprehension is just unreal to read. Such a necessary thing for stories to be told about, I wept during the glass desert.

[@BooksRebound]

@@hawkeyeplank Isn't it incredible? I'm really looking forward to erikson finishing The Kharkanas trilogy and the Witness trilogy eventually. The world is just so incredible. I've never cried harder at a book than at Beak's backstory with his brother in the barn. Tragic. And he just wanted friends 🥺

[@monkey39128]

As much as i disagreed with most of this video I am getting a lot of books to add to my reading list from these comments. 😂

[@BooksRebound]

@@monkey39128 Hope you give it a try and enjoy it. Are you really familiar with fantasy? If not it might be a bit challenging. People call it thr hardest fantasy series out there but I personally had no issue with it. Just think of the book as a puzzle or a mystery thriller book and you're a detective trying to solve the mystery without the author spelling everything out for you. He drops you into 120yrs of Malazan imperial history and you're following as the Malazans besiege the second last free city on their 3rd continent, after like a 25yr military campaign and you're just expected go catch up with all the backstory. If you get confused, you can check out the Malazan Lore video I made or there are tons of resources online. It's really unlike anything else out there and I really hope you enjoy it. It's way better, more epic, larger scope, and more complex than ASOIAF in my opinion Enjoy!

[@theterriblechildren9018]

Its important to note that Tolkien actually lamented the Nazis use of ancient German and Europen fairytales, lore and mythology. He thought that the Nazis gave it a bad name.

[@robertmanley4828]

I have been a subscriber for a long time now and i am very disappointed with this video. To me this sounded like a video made just in case the Stalinist Communist regime finds out years later when they commit their purges that Kavernacle might have liked LOTOR and wants to make sure he is on the record saying he doesnt want to associate with LOTOR people. But then realises he might have offended a large portion of his sane reasonable subscribers who love the story and gives a half arsed semi retraction about saying if you like Tolkien you are not my friend. Look, if i met you i wouldnt talk to you about LOTOR even if you didn't make this video so get over yourself.

[@AshikawaBetas]

As a giant Tolkien Fan this simply hurts me and also it's so very sauron / melkor like of them :') to use something of beauty and twist it so it becomes a message of hate. I hate this society

[@chrisr4023]

I dont think you understand LOTR and movies as a whole. Think of it as poetry. Different people will get different meaning from it. There is nothing wrong with that. For me, LOTR movies represent friendship and loyalty we should always strive towards. If some my friends said that they only learn Christian allegory... thats fine with me. Their views on movies, art and literature as a whole do not always have to align with mine. As long as our friendship comes first.

[@subcitizen2012]

You're misunderstanding his point: he is saying that fascists don't understand the point of lotr. But if that's just another viable interpretation to you, and you're willing g to be friends with fascists, they there's everything anyone needs to know about who you and your values.

[@andrewcrowder4958]

The only reason the far right loves the Lord of the Rings is because they misread it.

[@CryLowderWithCrouder]

Judging people for having Lord of the Rings as their favourite movie(s) is the weirdest hill to die on. "I'm so jaded, I can't watch Lord of the Rings any more." That's not the flex you think it is.

[@subcitizen2012]

And you're judging him for not identifying with it anymore. There's no difference. You're missing the point. Which is the point he's making. Start yourself over from scratch in that point.

[@Zelorp]

@subcitizen2012 It’s not really the same at all. One person is making a blanket assumption about anyone who likes a piece of media, and the other is pointing out that’s a bit silly.

[@sptony2718]

Pretty sure they just claim to be fans of LotR because it's one of only two books they actually know by name.

[@pronoun171]

Lil bro really needs to stop judging people based on the franchises they like. Imagine being an adult and saying, "if you like this we can’t be friends" when it comes to superficial things like franchises 😂

[@monkey39128]

It's mad because this channel can be brilliant at times but occasionally he'll go off the deep end and say something really stupid.

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

@@pronoun171 dude, if i come over to your house and you watch spongebob... i will never call again.

[@cjr-en4wr]

why? if i can judge you as an idiot by the 20 words you just wrote (pretty accurately), i can just as easily judge you by the shows you like.

[@monkey39128]

@@cjr-en4wr That says more about you. Also, don't call someone an idiot when you don't even start your sentences with capital letters.

[@UnfollowYourDreams]

@@monkey39128 your takes are so horrible you must be 14 or something. At least mentally.

[@conscientiousobjector5988]

It unifies the way racists and fascists perceive the world.

[@willmosse3684]

I hate the fact that people of your generation call Lord of the Rings “a franchise”. Gaaahhhh. Stop it man. I wish the movies were never made. We loved The Lord of the Rings before those movies were ever made. Now, everyone more than about five years younger than me thinks of the movies first, and the books are an afterthought. Not mention all the video games, Amazon show, etc. The original work is not a “franchise”.

[@goosewithagibus]

it is a franchise though, that's a fact

[@Spencer-wc6ew]

You're still allowed to love the books. How does other people enjoying Lord of the Rings differently than you make your enjoyment worse?

[@willmosse3684]

@@goosewithagibus The spin off material is a franchise. The original work is a labour of love by a creative genius, never created with this corporate commercial “franchise” mindset.

[@willmosse3684]

@@Spencer-wc6ew Fair enough. You can enjoy the books or the spin off franchise however you like, of course. I do think it is a disservice to Tolkien and his creation, however, that when people use the title of his art, they are referring to the spin off material primarily and not his actual work.

[@goosewithagibus]

@@willmosse3684 it's a franchise, plain and simple. Doesn't matter how you feel about it, it's been franchised for a long time, with the original animated films. It's also a wonderful legendarium. Both are true. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la la la about capitalism doesn't change the fact that people franchise amazing pieces of art all the time, doesn't make them any less amazing.

[@isolationnationn]

Yeeaah we don’t need your opinion on LOTR here, it’s not relevant and you’re muddying your own point by opening the door to conservatives to say you “just don’t get it”.

[@noelcastillo3829]

Please don't embarrass yourself this way. Almost all fantasy media today can be traced back to Lord of the Rings. Leonard Nemoy made a hippie music video about Bilbo Baggins. If Matt Walsh likes Lord of the Rings, that is not indicative of jack shit. Fascist love neoclassicism, you know who else loves neoclassicism? Pretty much everyone who doesn't like conceptual abstraction. Its just art, people absorb it and project on to it, the result can be as beautiful as the dawn or as treacherous as the sea, but it is not yours to police.

[@commentator-tl9h]

Well said! And we should definitely not be ceding the space to fascists to claim LOTR for themselves.

[@noelcastillo3829]

@@commentator-tl9h Exactly, most of the cast of movie is left or liberal. Jesus, Vigo Mortensen endorsed Jill Stein on late night tv. Fuck Matt Walsh and his stupid fucking diaper plushie, there is no need to give these people importance for liking a movie.

[@yourdad6902]

Damn bro you obviously never had nerds froth at the mouth for criticising lotr like its actual history for england and like its actually their mythology cos tolkien said he wanted to create myths and legends for them they take this seriously and i guess you also forgot the fascist hobbit camps

[@gm9460]

@@yourdad6902 your post doesn’t make sense? What point are you trying to make? The hobbit camps are presented as unambiguously bad in the text . Fans do not think they are a good thing

[@yourdad6902]

@@gm9460 blah blah blah you ignored everything he said and acted like he wanted to eradicate everyone who likes lotr

[@loveylace4541]

It's so, so funny because, yes, I am a huge fan of Lord of the Rings (books, that is), but if a white man comes to me saying it's their favourite thing: it's red flag. Not because it's cringe an adult to enjoy Lord of the Rings, specially because Tolkien fought longingly and wrote essays against intelectuals that claimed fairytales were kid's stuff, but because I don't trust white men reading of LOTR. I joke saying Tolkien is, actually, for the girls and the gays, because those are the fans I interact mostly. As a Christian (Protestant) myself I think it's important to understand a Christian (Catholic) mind in order to adapt any of Tolkien's work. Let me give you an exemple: After the War of the Wrath, Sauron truly regrets his evil deeds and wants to leave his past behind. Eonwe, servant of Manwe, tells Sauron he is to go to Aman, confess his evil deed and accept punishment. However, Sauron is too ashamed and flies from it. He stays in Middle Earth and works to reform it, but his evil deeds overwhelm Sauron and he turns to it again. That's why, for Sauron, a Catholic, a sin is supposed to be confessed so the community can help you to overcome the weight of it (thus, the catholic confessional and stuff). I'm still to write an essay about how Amazon show is damaging, but English is my second language and things don't come easily. But my point is that Amazon failed to tell a good story about Second Age, Sauron and fascism. Yes, Sauron is fascist, he marks all the boxes. It's extremely ironic because Sauron comes promising to restore Middle-Earth as Annatar, promising the elves a return of the mystical, glorious past they once lost, but for it to happen, Sauron must come as their governor because in the mind of a fascist, they are the only who can steer the change. The One Rings is made to watch all the minds of the races and keep them under control. Celebrimbor realises it almost too late and dies protecting the Three Elven Rings. The fact that Amazon missed it is... Embarrassing. Their representation is also a joke and spills on cowardice because I know artists actually painting Middle-Earth with colors and remaining major characters as people of color. I think we should do to Tolkien's Legendarium what the movie The Green Knight did with Arthurian Legends, and embrace Dev Patel as the ultimate medieval protagonist- Just kidding. But using the canon Legendarium as a solid base for new ways to tell old stories, good stories filled with symbolism and philosophies. No, no one is getting over Lord of the Rings, we are protecting that stinky, nerd story.

[@rachael_grey]

It's fun. I was a nerdy kid of 12 when I first read it. "The Chronicles of Narnia" was age 9. It's a bit cringy now, and I found it increasingly so as I started looking at the stereotypes and subtexts. But look at Tolkien's influences and literary "sources," and you find them there as well. At least it got me to read the Venerable Bede and "Beowulf" in a few translations. 😂 Peter Jackson did a pretty damned good job, but I knew it wouldn't live up to the pictures in my head.

[@rev.chuckshingledecker]

LOTR isn’t “black and white” morally. Denathor, Boromir, Gollum, Frodo, even Sam are not “all good.” Not even Sam who (in the book) ruins Gollum’s repentance because he accuses him of wrong doing when he is literally about to repent of all his evil deeds. It’s not in the movies but it is the book.

[@subcitizen2012]

In... The... Books... Yeah.