Why Every Single Game Feels Like "Jungle Diff" - The Problem With Smite | League Of Legends

[@VarsVerum]

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[@nirgunawish]

thanks for making me realise trying to get back into lol is a huge mistake because there's too many stupid suits calling the shots instead of the balance team and devs. i'm installing dota at the moment

[@MissChambersxo]

Smite is the junglers’ second best friend. A jungler’s true best friend is the mute button

[@ohnoanyway6096]

Facts

[@jahnodeadjahnodead]

/mute all for once and for all

[@eins_musaik]

Amen Sister!

[@MoEternity96]

I main jg and I made it emerald yesterday and I gotta say this is the most true statement I have read so far this year!

[@ienvyclouds3777]

No its my lil scorchpup

[@KingOfMelos]

Being a jungler is like being a goalkeeper, except your strikers left the field because they missed the goal twice, your defenders are standing still yelling at each other and mid field are the tryouts for a college team playing in the WC, and now you get blamed because you didn't stop the enemy team from scoring

[@xavierdecharpe3288]

This is hte most accurate statement about jungle!

[@Smack_Jackson]

Great comment 😂

[@thonex8787]

damn this hit on a personal level.... those feels x.x

[@YuYuYuna_]

Thing is this is just what I call the "Solo Q Roulette" and every role experiences it. If you play JG then your team is a mix of bad/dysfunctional/pointing fingers. If you play a lane then your JG is clueless and can't do basic decision making like pressing tab, seeing 2 of your lanes are 0/4 and 0/3 but your other lane is 7/0 and playing around the only lane that is doing well. It goes both ways is what I'm saying. I've tried out JG myself and it's a nightmare but so is being a laner, stomping your lane and seeing your JG smash their face into the wall thinking their 0/4 top laner is going to magically be able to kill the 7/0 irelia.

[@2BsYummySoles]

​@YuYuYuna_ for me, its not even JUST that. Its always the jgs who force objectives with literally no lane prio. Maybe due to mu, maybe because that lane was ganked by enemy jg giving the lane prio. Maybe its because they had to recall w/e. They do their best to try to salavage it or accept the fact they can't rotate and jg gets mad or repeats the same mistake for the first 20 min. Or, your jg is on the bot side of the map when the other 4 members want to do baron or is contesting baron

[@flykz255]

Jinxes rocket flying acorss the map sealing 2k dmg execute to baron while everyone pings the jungler for only having a 1200 dmg smite. My fav jungle experience

[@kogmawmain8872]

As the Jinx jungle player in question: same

[@carneromichael]

Dont forget about ekko 2k jumping walls, nunu, chogath, and every mage full items

[@OG_ALviK]

Lategame evelynn is a special case. Good luck securing objectives if she has flash up. Pretty sure the damage is around 3k+ only with R. Add doublecast with smite at 1.2k and its close to 4-5k instand damage. Good luck with that shit

[@braules]

In no world the jinx ult would do 2k dmg to baron but sure let’s make shit up for fun

[@blackice8634]

That honestly sounds more of an issue with game knowledge than anything else. If you're taking baron and there's an enemy jinx, there's someone that usually body blocks that. Same thing how if you have an open nexus and there's a TF on the enemy team you usually have someone in base to prevent him from back dooring.

[@Celmondas]

I think the problem is how it amplifies the mistakes of junglers. When any other role dies in late you might not even lose a tower when you team is alive. When the jungler dies the enemy team has a good chance to take Dragon(soul) or Nash which can mean a lost game

[@hplaserjet5902]

first turret has a 72% wr

[@Celmondas]

@hplaserjet5902 it's not about first turret. It is about late game. Losing a t2 turret is not optimal but losing nash can lose you the game. Also you can def turrets with less than 5 people when enemy doesn't have nash buff

[@hrodvithit]

​@@hplaserjet5902first turret is usually defined by the jungler though

[@stjepansimudvarac8906]

i kinda agree, grubs should spawn every 1 min(based on wave) at top conclave and atakhan should spawn in conclave at bot (maybe)

[@mousy-4456]

One big thing I notice with jungle is, every1 cries for junglers help, but if jungler needs help, nobody ever does. This new season highlights that especially hard,where the team that rotates first is more likely to get stuff

[@Nightwalk444]

Funny thing is that I don't remember the last time the JG came into Mid to gank. I always expect every lane to be played out without the JG, it's just a bonus if it would happen.

[@radiicola3631]

@@Nightwalk444lane is smaller, plus a lot of long range mages or mobile assassins are there. If you aren’t playing something mid with heavy cc then it’s hard to gank successfully and time is better spent elsewhere. I’d rather have sidelane pressure than mid lane pressure for objectives bc it’s crippling when enemy top or bot rotates while I’m on objective and my respective laner can’t or won’t come

[@jamiex8385]

@@Nightwalk444mid is much harder to gank. its easy to gank mid and punish if enemy is pushed up, otherwise u have to dive or trade.

[@matthewjackman8410]

@@Nightwalk444 A good mid should really be like a good jungler. Rotating to secure objectives and gank, expecting no help unless it is clear that it is advantageous to do so. Jungle is invaded, mid helps. Mid is pushed to tower by an enemy with no flash, jungle helps. Bot and top are very different as it is far easier for both mid and jungle to secure kills with a roam there.

[@PitchBlack0000]

Absolutely not true. I leave mid every time the jgl gets invaded, unless there are like 4 people at him, then that's the botlane's fault for not giving vision or pings, not even jg diff. But can't always say the same about them. Yesterday I lost a game because our Lee Sin would rather do some random jungle camp than helping me defend the Nexus when all enemies are attacking it. Not just a random tower, but the *NEXUS*, when all my other teammates are gone so I'm the only one left with him. Then that same Lee Sin starts flaming when I ping him and say jg diff. The fault's all on you guys.

[@Darkloid21]

I think another issue is people expect jungle to be a solo act when it’s actually a test of teamwork. I can’t count the number of times I lost objectives because the enemy had a more reactive and responsive team. Like…I can’t do everything myself guys…

[@tminusboom2140]

I have the distinct memory of losing a recent game because my team rotated a total of twice, both the top lane Gragas all the way down to the dragon, to the enemy that rotated as 4/5 to 100% of objectives. The only 2 we got were the ones where Gragas came, where he and I were able to take the dragons fast enough that his ult was enough peel.

[@ratbaby3107]

Gotta love looking at a present drake and a friendly botlane that's shoved their wave in, asking them to rotate up when they're done and help secure drake and just getting told no. And then trying to take drake solo just for the enemy jungler or midlaner or botlane after yours recalls comes up and smacks you around and steals drake.

[@wendle14]

@@ratbaby3107 you forgot the part after where the bot lane proceeds to type in all chat "ff jg dif"

[@masoudppr2]

its funny bcz u cant take objects bcz enemy has all members for objects but ur laners are under tower farming and when they die, they blame u for not taking objects, like dude!

[@JamesBaleLA]

It’s especially infuriating when you have prio and somehow the enemies still manage to rotate first

[@ninjaman0003]

I think the issue is it's fundamentally different than it use to be. When I started, I loved jungling because it was a rather flexible role where you farmed mobs outside of lane and supported lanes. Now the jungle seems to have to be a carry of some kind, has to track an increasing amount of objectives, support lanes, and all while trying to keep yourself at a helpful level. It’s less of a flexible role now and more a role of which side starts dropping balls while jungling.

[@thonex8787]

may i ask when you started jungle? cause my first experience was hell on earth..... 2013... 2 months into league there he was..... my nemesis.... the bluebuff!!!!!! for real tho. wasnt even able to do a fullclear without backing 3 times..... and every other game you had the players who were like "jungle is not important imma steal the first blue/red" i was so extremely detremental back than.... hit lvl 4 while everyone else was already 8.

[@ethangnasher3848]

​@@thonex8787 I started and ended my League Journey on 2016, it was easy peasy, by far the best role I could play as. Used to play as Malphite and did pretty decently, then moved to Cho'gath and consistently kept taking the dragons when they showed up. Nowadays... Nah, i'm glad I left the League hellhole that quick, lol.

[@ninjaman0003]

@@thonex8787 i've been on and off for a while now but i started a bit after the game came out. back when it had rune pages instead of the talent trees and before there was even a 3v3 map, let alone another mode to play. though you seem to have started well before me. either jungling was being figured out or was mostly solved by the time i started. i remember it was a huge deal with it was discovered that warwick could solo the original dragon at a rather low level.

[@hrodvithit]

While jungle objectives are fun, I find there is too much pressure now. I have been playing a lot of aram because it's no pressure and trying to slowly try getting back into SR as a jungler and honestly it stresses me out. I'm tracking enemy jungle, let my lanes know where they are, they never respond. I tell them enemy jungle is on grubs, no one moves with me, enemy lane roams, lose grubs, get flamed. Get a good window go drag? No one comes, take it too slow, enemy shows up, lose it. And no one responds to baron calls.

[@masoudppr2]

true, jungle now is all about which team care about its jungle and help jungle, right now I really don't like to play jungle because its not like other lanes that you just need to win over ur laner, but jungle now is like u play vs the hole enemy team, for ex when I want to go for grubs, I should pay attention bcz enemy mid and supp and jungle can 3 man me in river. Så its more about whos team got better team mate than junglers skill and knowledge of the game!

[@chicolopes1928]

The matchmaking system also exacerbates this. The way MMR based matchmaking is handled at the moment is that it simply makes sure the overall MMR of one team somewhat evens out compared to the other. But if one team has a diamond support and the other has a diamond jungler then 9/10 times the team with the highest MMR jungler will win. I wish Riot would implement a system where your MMR is matched directly with your lane opponent. Not the overall team. Let 2 diamond junglers duke it out while the gold supports duke it out as well

[@welcometoWWW]

Yeah right. Last ranked game I had a range of plat2-gold3. Worlds apart but playing in the same "elo". For the record the enemy team had 3 plats and my side were all gold. Needless to say we got stomped hard while I struggled to maintain the only lead on the team. Lost that game. Matchmaking is actually unfair and ranked is a joke. I don't think rank should be viewed as seriously when games like these are simply common.

[@christiankerns9403]

I hate to tell you this my dude, but they already tried that and it failed spectacularly. They had a system where every position had its own individual rank associated with it so you could be gold in top lane but diamond in support and you would matchmake accordingly. Problem was, you would just duo or trade roles with the highest mmr player who was on a lower mmr role and then you would absolutely steamroll the opponent. People used to duo and do a gold support (when they are actually a diamond jungle) and then position swap with the actual gold jungle so you would get absolutely lopsided games and riot had to pull the emergency lever on that season and revert it.

[@andyolson8255]

@@welcometoWWWthis is really league specific though, this is how most comp modes in most competitive games work

[@julymorris6367]

​@@christiankerns9403 just make lane swapping a bannable offense, lmfao

[@christiankerns9403]

@@julymorris6367 except auto fill still exists... banning lane swapping is a terrible take

[@tekstego9654]

oaky i dont agree that there's no opportunity cost to roaming around the map as the jungler, especially in early laning phase, because camps are crucial, and if you gank top you might lose all your bot camps to the enemy jungler, and maybe even a gank bot that you arent able to defend, there's DEFINITLY a opportunity cost to ganking at an unfortunate time . Its akin to the enemy laner being able to take their own minions(farming their own camps+ yours you left undefended, so not only do you lose that gold and exp, the enemy laner takes it) on top of yours and even get a roam off themselves

[@0w0lord30]

Yeah I don't think vars jungles alot there is always a cost to every action you take in jungle but it's also reliant on the fact that enemy jungle knows how to capitalize on it so in

[@tekstego9654]

@0w0lord30 but that's like relying on your team not to int, it's bad practice, act as if that's what's GOING to happen

[@SkeemborPeeblebutt]

You're correct about opportunity cost being real, just showing on map has it's own cost. At higher elos, showing top/bot/mid signals to the enemy team that they're free to make plays in the lane you're not in. Barring a few exceptions like Nocturne, Nunu, Talon. Way too many casual junglers don't think about this and it results in huge jungle diffs. That said, XP is not a real cost for junglers. The current catch-up mechanics ensure you will always be within 1-2 levels of the opposing jungler. The only way to keep a hard level advantage is to completely force them out of their own jungle (i.e. don't let them get a single camp) which isn't realistic in most games.

[@sangletan7076]

depend on the situation, even showing your face down bot can cost you your top, like, you're the whole reason why the enemy to didn't commit.

[@nechocat1234]

​@@sangletan7076, but showing your face in bot even if you don't outright gank can make the enemy bot less agressive and avoiding a double kill

[@thomasquesada7248]

Every game feels like a jungle diff when you have no idea how the jungle works and couldn’t possibly think that losing lane was actually your fault

[@nurikkulanbaev3628]

I mean when you get ganked 4 times, and lose all objectives, except for 1 grubs. Its clearly a jungle diff. I froze the wave under my tower. My opponent is half HP - No Gank Im trying to push the wave under tower. And my opponent is full hp under tower - WOW SUCH GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO "GANK" and get executed by tower

[@JamesBaleLA]

Yup

[@JamesBaleLA]

@@nurikkulanbaev3628how are you setting up your wave and vision that allows you to be tanked 4 times?

[@thomasquesada7248]

@ maybe don’t overexpose yourself ??? Jungling is about taking opportunities if you don’t make any it’s not a jungle diff it’s just you Also just because you froze doesn’t mean the jungler can just come to you they have camp to farms, sounds like you should pay more attention to where your jungler is

[@window9213]

@@thomasquesada7248 If you think the jungle role is about punishing mistakes boy do I have news for you. The role is so oversaturated at this point you can force most fights and still go positive for it, even if enemy doesn't make mistakes. Especially ganking bot lane.

[@GilesaSerafinaSantacruzSanchez]

A good jungler is only as effective as the responsiveness of their team. Ive seen teams say "gg jg diff" in situations where i was outjungled but because my laners knew how to react to objectives and skirmishes over neutrals did we come out far ahead

[@rayzecor]

Started playing again this Monday after a one year hiatus. Uninstalled today after my 17th game of the season exactly because of this reason.

[@welcometoWWW]

See this happen all the time. I dont think people realize being "Jungle" is just a literal representation of the team's ability to work together. Which involves, your teammates, working WITH you. The laners of today expect the jungle to work FOR you. This is what seperates low elo laners from high elo laners. Map control.

[@Darkloid21]

God I felt this in my soul. The amount of games I lost because my team didn’t respond to changes is too many.

[@matthewjackman8410]

Same, seen it both ways. I int early, mess up timings but my team rotate, they go down in kills but win on objectives, and I get undeserved credit. Also seen me carry hard with a team of idiots but lose more objectives because 3 minions is more worth to them than rotating and my team says jg diff because I had to spend all my time farming and counter jungling because all they did was push and die.

[@thonex8787]

actually jungle is strong enough to carry in low elo 1v9 no team needed to keep fighting. you just need some on midlane to not die to enemy. the only problem is finishing, you need a teamfight where none of yor minions die... uhm langers die. so they can march down mid and finish. but joke aside. while it is possible to carrie 1v9 low elo it is not the norm inting of teammates (and oneself!!!!!!) is to be expected

[@Catspirit123]

I used to like jungling years ago, but it felt like each season there was more and more pressure put on the role so I eventually fell out of it. Running around the map doing various tasks is fun, but when you're being out jungled and yelled at by everyone it just feels miserable

[@kylejacquillard6785]

I completely agree I used to a jung main now I just do mid an carry

[@navinvent]

Biggest gripe is when team wont go for an objective after a kill, and that misfortune wants the 3 more minions instead of a dragon.

[@TechNinjaSigma]

RIGHT!!!

[@welcometoWWW]

Real as fuck

[@brianmabon4703]

Generally as a laner they should push their wave out before they rotate for an objective, so they are probably doing the right thing. Unless we're talking mid to lategame

[@doktormozg]

More often then not these guys just dont understand how important objectives are because they dont give 700 gold immediately 💀💀💀

[@welcometoWWW]

@ Given how important objectives are, wave management can be afforded to be traded off for things that benefit the entire team instead of the individual selfish laner even in the early game. It's a team game. At least, that's what its supposed to be anyway. It's not chess if the pieces aren't defending each other. It's not league if we're not playing the map. On that note, high elo and low elo are effectively two different games. Literally. Two. Different. Games. You can't balance thinking low and high elo as being "League of Legends". High elo is "League of Legends". Low elo is something else entirely.

[@The5lacker]

Smite isn’t the problem: the *obscene* amount of impact neutral objectives have on the game is, and the fact that they’re all, to a one, “A single big monster that gives your team a huge bonus if you last-hit it.” If Dragon and friends get reigned in, Smite ceases being a problem, Jungle becomes substantially less stressful, win win.

[@SkeemborPeeblebutt]

Unfortunately not a win-win. If you make neutrals less valuable than ganks becomes inherently more valuable. Which just means we go back to the era of junglers having outsized influence on lane outcomes.

[@ggwp638BC]

Not really, we had this way back in the day. The jungler turns either into support 2 and their only goal is to secure ganks and let the laners snowball or into a hypercarry that spends half the match farming alone and then shows up with 3 items and starts melting people. Similarly, for the laners, either everyone is roaming to botlane and it's a mess, or everyone is locked to their lane and there is no point in roaming. The point of the more impactful objectives is to make early game skirmishes more present and more important, and it's not just about ganking botlane. It's definitely a healthier and more fun game than we had before.

[@kingsabrigaming765]

i swear as a jungler i be present at every obj clear vision and put wards ..... meanwhile my team will recall, die or go to the other side 5 sec before the obj spawn ..... here i find myself alone 1v3 at least and i just have to int to try to steal or give and try to clear the enemy jungler opposite side .......later in the game i will be flamed for not getting obj :) ...... - enemy team will rotate first in case of invade in my jungle or in the enemy jungle (no matter they have prio or no they have full health or no) - enemy team will go straight to baron after they win a team fight , mean while my team will push throught super minions without any wave clear and refuse to go to baron (they will not even reach the tower before the enemy team respawn) -enemy team will try to protect their jungler in obj and try to zone me from reaching obj , meanwhile my team will chase talon mid through jungle and leave me alone without protection with dragon half health and enemy team is coming to steal - ah i forget when i ganks supp will wait me to tank all the skillshot before they decide to move , adc will stay farming (5cs/min btw) .....i get flash and ignite from enemy bot ....1 min later ''an ally has been slain .... double kill'' ...... jungle DIFF report please

[@thonex8787]

sounds about right :D but to be fair. a jungler is able to snowball to do 1v9 easier than most laners. thus i alway say. if i lost, i wasnt able to carry hard enough. jungler is a busy yet lonely role. all in all you win your games, your teammates dont win games for you. on this note a quote. "the only common denominator in your losing games is you. But be glad, the same goes for your winning games" (some random yt i dont remember anymore. sorry)

[@jrn913]

@@thonex8787 RIP anyone trying to play support or tank junglers under masters elo, must carry to win or else the game is a teammate coinflip -former Ivern enjoyer

[@thonex8787]

@@jrn913 imo the low elo 1v9 carry from Support and jungler is mostly possible until lower gold high silver. But the laners in that elo will have better general knowledge and you are able to capitalize on that partially. Or said in another way. The higher your elo goes, the less you need to be a 1v9 player. But even masters and grandmasters have thier bad days or mindsets so basically. Always expect your team to be feeding. If they dont you are happy. If they do. Well its just the normal thing to happn and you do not need to get angy

[@Tsuusetsu]

i swear the number of times we have killed dragon, and killed 3 enemy champions, but everyone wants to recall instead of taking bot tower. Its like they are allergic to free gold.

[@thonex8787]

@ well there are the 15% games :D dunno if you heard about it but here for anyone ho might find this interesting. 15/15/70 is a rule which some coarches use it means 15% are autolose 15% are autowin and 70% you decide. a game you lost but you are 15/1/10 has a high probability to be a 15% autolose, while a game you won but had 0/20/0 is one of the 15% wins. its games where you are 0/20/0 and lose those you want to work on by learning how to play better and thus carry ^^

[@PhailRaptor]

The biggest issue here is the disconnect between what the player base wants out of the game, and what Riot wants out of the game. The players want a fun and fair (enough) battleground where they can compete for victory. Riot wants to grow the eSports scene as much and as fast as possible so they can make as much money as possible. This difference in expectation can be seen across every balance decision Riot makes -- every buff and every nerf is about making the game the most sensational spectator sport it can be. I still remember when Lee Sin was called Free Win, but Riot wouldn't nerf him because he was everything they wanted out of their game. He was capable of big, flashy plays that could define the outcome of the game, to give the audience that roller coaster feeling of ups and downs bundled up in a constant rush of excitement. It's also why every new champion is released hilariously OP and with an overloaded kit that has to be nerfed and have mechanics removed to make it fair, which makes it boring or underpowered, requiring more buffs later. The situation with Smite is no different. Riot wants it to feel just like an interception in football. If you do it in a critical moment, you can reverse the course the game has taken and snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat. It's a really toxic play experience, but it's a fantastic event to spectate.

[@thonex8787]

well well well. can you name me 10 topics on which more than 60% of the playerbase agree on, which really are problems and not a memes? humans in general disagree all the time and i am sure i something is standing out (like the blue essence issue at the moment) it will be worked on immidiatly. but most humans are only able to voice what they do not want. and the decision to go for a esports focus is legit. without esports no league. sad but true but the atention and the money esports brings makes it even possible to keep this game alive it is actually sad many people believe selling skins is all thats needed to keep the game running. i bet most of the playerbase only plays league because they have heard about it through esports or someone who knows it from esport.

[@AKA_11-mb2xi]

@@thonex8787no just heard it was toxic and hard so I gave it a try.i learned about it’s esports later

[@CandaEH]

@@thonex8787 no one cares about esports

[@thonex8787]

@ well i just quote myself on here "can you name me 10 topics on which more than 60% of the playerbase agree on" noone cares about esports? sorry there are too many that do care to say "noone cares" almost every time the topic league comes up near me for example it instantaneously goes to esports. heck even when i am talking to randos on a party or on the train it happned. just because you might not care does not mean noone cares.

[@CandaEH]

@@thonex8787 all the power streamers in the algorithm are Challenger/diamond rejects that Smurf... Because no one cares about esports.

[@MajinMattPlays]

I think Jungle is the role that exemplifies the near universal issues that LoL has had for years now. Back when I first started Jungling in Season 4, giving your team Buffs and Ganks was the major aspect of Jungling, and taking Baron/Dragon was usually done whenever possible but it wasn't such a huge reward that it warped the entire game around it. Now, I think the sheer amount of neutral objectives, the power they provide, and the snowballing effect getting them gives results in a really disproportionate focus on the Jungler in a way that makes it more of a Binary, either you won the early Neutral Objectives and are able to provide value to the team, or you lost them and provide little to nothing. The first few objectives in the game need to have reduced importance for Jungle to feel less overcentralizing.

[@SirDeviless]

Playing jungle is exhausting. I just want to turn my brain off and have fun fighting, I dont want to be a manager for the team and become the sole responsible for every single objective.

[@jond7851]

So play top, this is the whole point of jungle

[@AyjayAlleyway]

@@jond7851 that’s the problem. Laners never want to participate in objectives.

[@MrLolguy93]

It feels like there is too much work for too little payoff and frustration

[@masoudppr2]

yeah it sucks now to play jungle, back in the day jungle was like other lanes, u are against enemy jungle and who ever do better could win the game or help winning it, but now days its jungle and mid and supp vs enemy jung, mid and supp. its no longer a single player lane. that's why it sucks, its now all about which team help to secure objects better wins the game

[@SangoProductions213]

Of course, there's an issue with using winrate for dragon soul as an indicator of the power of dragon soul... The team that gets dragon soul was probably winning, because they managed to get 4 dragons before the enemy team. Just like winrates for the feets of strength boots. They win more often... because they are only available to the winning team.

[@S3lvah]

Should use "win-probability added" to normalize for the so-called "Mejai's bias" like xPetu does in his analyses

[@Pentagram666mar]

Jungle is the most important role for 20 IQ laners that think that they will really win game just by staying on their lane

[@evenjesuscantsaveyouanymor6163]

Ye, but my issue as a midlander is that ever other jgler is to traumatised to actualy see when they got a midlander that is trying to play through the 2v2. So they rather just do their dumb ass clear just before an objective in the erly game than to hover mid so their laner can get prio to move without getting ganked. One of fkn many reasons I want duoq to be removed as thoes jglers are just impossible to communicate with, at most 1 out 5 that actually lissens or reacts to anything outside of their duos lane.

[@PitchBlack0000]

Get down from your pedestal, not everyone mains a champ who's viable in the jungle.

[@thonex8787]

@@evenjesuscantsaveyouanymor6163 do you watch your replays? sounds like the typical complaint on a loosing lane. dont wanna be a hater here, but as a jungler there are some things i keep in mind. 1. Never gank a loosing lane 2. I am no babysitter, if my laners decide to int so be it. 3. Which lane will be my wincondition. 4. keep track of the enemy jungler and plan ahead. do i punish his gank with counterjungle? will i be in a position to countergank once his clear is done or am i on the other side and gank there. basically think 2 steps ahead and take as many possibilities into account as possible. (and probably around 5-10 things like spawn timer and so on which i dont wanna list cause i am not able to follow through with them, thats high elo stuff) if a lane is hard to gank (mostly ranged heafy mobile or stun heavy on a short lane like midlane for example), or the matchup is just unfavorable i will at most be hovering to maybe catch someone offguard but i will prioritise my whole lane around my favorable lans. Of Course. these points are flexible, if i notice my midlaner popping off, of course i am gonna give him more of my attention why shouldnt i work together with someone capable? if by random chance a support comes along with me? i will gank a loosing lane. And please dont get me wrong, there are many and i repeat MANY silly ducks out there jungleing who do not even understand the concept of a jungle path but its a million times better than season 3 where i was thrown into the jungle for my first time.... overall the skill level of the whole player base has increased. i see iron players nowerdays who are hardstuck which would be around gold back then mechanic wise (not nessessary knowledge wise) the thing is. junglers have much on thier palate and babysitting a loosing lane is a game losing move.

[@Pentagram666mar]

@@evenjesuscantsaveyouanymor6163 i think that the more early is important in league the more you should pick champs that can easily get early prio. To be honest as a jungler i would much more prefere to revert jungle to herald and Drake with scuttles and gank a lot. Since grubz and now with atakhan you basically have no time for ganks other than 100% successful situations, because somehow you need to keep your level especially since riot nerfed jungle exp. I play jungle since season 2, season 14 and new 15 are the worst. Right now I think that whole game is in jungle and we should revert our thinking from expecting jungler to gank to top laner setting prio on grubz spawn, bot on drake spawn etc. Instead we still have 90% of Players insulting for no ganks, and calling jungle diff after lost objectives.

[@thegameguy4536]

@@Pentagram666mar i agree, ive noticed in most of my recent games i just end up behind simply because of all the objectives in early and mid game being so close together, all the while my team keeps spam pinging and begging for ganks forgetting i also need to be able to farm and get levels while also needing camps so i can level up smite to contest the objectives. its just frustrating as it is now

[@UserLeoh]

The problem with smite is that I can’t use it to make up for my terrible cs in lane

[@DarthRadical]

"No one else can contest the objectives." Cho'gath: "Sure..."

[@tylerrock7219]

I would love to see a follow-up video to this on potential solutions to this problem, I hadn't really thought too much about it before

[@儀水鏡の妖怪霊]

Honestly, Jungle becoming essential was going to happen no matter what because of the existence of the jungle itself. If there is anything important in that location having someone specialized in taking control of it was going to happen. It's a foregone conclusion at this point. The best we can do is to consider how is it balanced around the rest of the game and how it relates to the other roles. Just as having a support is somewhat essential, having a jungle will remain essential if the game surrounding it demands it. Nobody else can take that role because in part no other role is specialized in doing what jungle already does so it can't cover those weaknesses.

[@calvinrockwood7913]

As an occasional jungler in low elos, I think the main problem comes with knowing when you as a jungler can have an impact. I am bad, (and know that other junglers at my elo are too) at looking at the map and figuring out where we should be. In addition, our teammates are also equally clueless at looking at the map and realizing that because I’m top, they shouldn’t try to contest dragon when the enemy mid and bot have rotated to secure dragon.

[@thonex8787]

the only important thing in low elo is. know your junglepathing. thats all. once you done your pathing you will automatically start to see opportunities. and when you got your pathing down to a t you will rise a rank and start anticipating the enemy junglers pathing. and so on. but many dont have the time or energy to learn the basics. and i get it. its a game, its meant for a couple hours of good time. worry about objectives in low elo is not too relevant. should i cry that drake got taken 5 minutes after it spawned? nope sorry in that case my jungle pathing was probably just garbage ^^ thus a delay of me taking drake ^^

[@jotarokujo934]

8:27 Janna Top with Smite was also a thing

[@freierzocker837]

"Smite only contestable by another smite", que cho crying in the corner. XD

[@gryphon_Space]

the only jungler that is actually the top laner and can survive diving the objective. god it's funny stealing a big objective and using it to roll the enemy team.

[@jrn913]

NUNU MID

[@Thenicktatorship]

Unironically smite should be removed, no joke, remove the summoner. Less pressure on jg, more agency on objectives for the whole team.

[@welcometoWWW]

This would actually incentivize the entire team actually playing like a team more I think. Either that or laners will still expect you to solo objectives lmao.

[@leonardo9259]

No for the love of god no, smite is the reason some junglers are even viable thanks to clear times

[@steelcry6665]

​@leonardo9259 maybe they shouldn't be. Maybe jg shouldn't even be a role at all times. Maybe we should be more like Dota in this one.

[@TheRealSorav]

@@steelcry6665 I wouldn't mind if you could buy a weaker smite in the shop or something if you feel like your jungler isn't performing

[@fish-kt4iq]

​@@steelcry6665highly agree, I see a lot of problems that dota used to have when junglers was a thing in league now.

[@KayeZZ1]

The thing is, jungling isn't really 100% on the jungler. You could be getting way ahead of the enemy jungler, but if the opposing team is winning their lanes and also on top of jungle, you'll likely never get it. Even if you kill enemy jg, if you start on dragon and you get jumped by mid, bot, and sup, chances are you won't get it. It's a team effort that everyone on the team needs to be aware of and play into, now more than ever.

[@ggwp638BC]

That's true for all roles. There is no single role in the game that can play truly solo. But, while all other roles can be compensated for (bad sup? Just have the top or mid peel, bad top? Sup engages. Bad carry? The most fed makes up the damage, etc), even if not optimally. But only one role is allowed to do massive true damage and secure objectives.

[@dazeen9591]

ever since smite got buffed from 900 damage to 1200 damage i've never seen the other roles managing to steal the objective

[@pit2559]

I find the general toxicity also really deters people from picking up the role. Jungle plays differently from most other roles, so the learning curve is a bit steeper. When trying to learn jungle you can't really rely on the feedback in game, even if you do everything optimally someone will complain you did not gank their lane at least 5 times.

[@lucascarra8938]

guy who doesnt jungle makes a jungle video

[@konstancemakjaveli]

Everyone says jg diff Noone respects jg when he diffs

[@thonex8787]

i read jungle diff in a positive was more often than in a negative. i mostly read jungle diff (from my team) mostly when i carried. i almost never read it when i played like shit. at least nowerdays. used to be the other way around.

[@maxomega3]

losing access to your jungle is actually the worst part about playing from behind as jg. Lanes get waves pushed in for free when they're behind, but jgler is the only one with less guaranteed resources

[@DownForceSimRacing]

Had a game yesterday against a nunu mid shaco support and ww jungle. Lets just say my jng was ran thru the whole game i tried to keep it warded to no avail

[@aowens40601]

So I hate the argument off "well we can't do x cause then we'd have to rebalance the whole game". Riot is a gaming company. That's what they do every time they make one little change. So yeah get rid of smite or tie it to the jungle item itself. Cause the team game shouldn't be over cause one person forgot to change there summoner spell from when they played support.

[@jrn913]

SMITE THE CANNON, NOOOOWWW

[@Arob4343]

Non-junglers pretend smite is guaranteed. Junglers know it’s a coin flip that favors the better internet speed

[@DeRedBaronCT]

One of the orignal creators didnt want a spell like smite in the game, becuase they knew it would be required

[@SamiELImamGames]

4:15 those spirit items were not exclusive to junglers. Anyone could build them with or without smite. A long time ago people used to build elder lizard on ezreal in bot lane

[@thonex8787]

good sir, i think i might see some mandela effect here. the spirit items were exclusively jungle items. you needed the hunters machete to build these items and hunters machete could only be bought with smite. here is a quote from the wiki. "Hunter's Machete was a starter item in League of Legends icon League of Legends. It was exclusive to Summoner's Rift icon Classic Summoner's Rift 5v5. Can only be purchased if you have Smite Smite." blue ez took smite. it became a bit of a backup plan back in 2013/2014 to take 2 smite because many junglers were a little underpowered and 2 smites made objectives easier. as the smite items were powerful it wasnt such a big tradeoff either. in ezreals case it was as good as his normal build if not better to go smite into elder lizard.

[@SamiELImamGames]

​​@@thonex8787 Hunters machete and the things it builds into was not locked behind smite until 4.20, the same patch the spirit items were removed. Look at the patch notes for 4.20 and you will see. If you look at old blue ez build guides they would have elder lizard and recommend you take flash barrier.

[@teomangurbuz]

​​@@thonex8787 blue ez DIDNT took smite during that time. ezreal took smite when they intruduced the jungler sheen item. you can easily look up blue ezreal vids and see them not having smite and having the elder lizard. idk why you took wiki at face value

[@SamiELImamGames]

@ Yeah they did not bar jungle items behind smite until after spirit was removed

[@joe1trillion651]

Imagine if support items upgraded the heal spell like jungle items upgraded smite. Support would instantly become far more important.

[@plythbird]

they already are extremely important

[@ShinyRIS]

Ok but then supports lose access to exhaust, ignite, or any of the other spells. This then would mean that only the 3 main laners gets to choose spells as flash is mandatory on 90% champs and supp amd jgl would be forced to take their role specific spell.

[@jrn913]

Good idea actually, the ward quest should be expanded to make supports more independent.

[@tomkershaw9852]

Riot has added a bunch of new epic monsters, which do mostly rely on junglers to take. It would be nice if there were objectives that were imune/resistant to smite to encourage other roles to engage with them (kinda like how grubs sometimes get taken by top)

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

because riot keeps shoving more snowball mechanics into the jungle? at this point if your jungler loses you're like 10k gold worth of stacking buffs behind.

[@granddaddylurch9178]

Cry quiter

[@rafaelvillarroel3741]

In heroes of the storm, after killing a jungle camp a capture point will appear. By standing on the capture point for 1.5 seconds, the player will gain its reward. if an enemy champ invades and tries to steal by entering into the capture point it will become contested and its capture timer is paused until there is only one teams' champs in the area. Anyone from both teams can contest a jungle or objective camp. This could be a possible solution, killing drakes, grubs or any other epic monster creates a capture point, this way if a team wants an objective they must fight for it and get rid of the enemies to secure it so the jungler doesnt have that much agency

[@Nikolai0169]

I think the biggest issue is simply that most of the big jungle objectives these days are permanent upgrades to a teams pressure in addition to giving gold and experience, amplifying snowballing. With the addition of boot upgrades and one of its conditions being epic monster kills, it has become even more so.

[@cosmicroyaltyxz]

I think another issue with the jungler role is that they're kind of responsible for everyone. Every other lane is responsible for their lane only. They only need to focus on winning their lane, meanwhile the jungle is expected to help all three lanes, and if they're not able to capitalize on all winning lanes and help all losing lanes then they're bad and it's jungle diff. This is also in addition to them having to keep up cs and secure objectives. Now I know that (especially in higher elo) laners will roam more, but that is still often viewed as a secondary priority; just something they can do to help, but not their actual job. I just feel like the jungler has too many important responsibilities, having to focus on both helping laners and securing objectives.

[@OkamiAurora]

As a jungle main I mostly agree. The other issue it has is that LoL doesn't explain how jungling works nearly was well as laning. This mostly comes from jungle having so much it has to manage. Even if smite is removed you'll still have to deal with junglers who will farm enemy jungles because they kill camps quicker and your laner didn't offer vision for you. Objectives not going your way because your bot lane is too focused on the tower to help with drag (Same with grubs and top). The list goes on, and unless you feel like paying a guy to teach you no one is gonna take that time (I became a jungle main because no one I knew wanted to do it and I had to teach myself through old posts and patch notes. It took far too much time, and I can confidently say it's NOT worth it). Most guides are out dated and/or don't work for your main. Unless you can watch someone in Esports and understand their thought process... You get nothing from watching. It's a very complex problem that I don't know how to solve and I don't envy riot if they attempt to fix it

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

It just never made sense to me how the devs couldn’t see that the more powerful they made smite when it’s most basic function (to execute Mobs) already trounces every other spells value, the more lopsided the jungler role becomes. Casuals don’t want more power if it then means they need to be saddled with more responsibilities it comes with and yet they just kept adding more, so afraid that taking back power would piss off people more.

[@thatdudeghostyxd]

recently played some jungle games where laners shout at me for not ganking when they have enemies pushed under tower like damn I appreciate the prio for neutral objectives but don't expect me to gank early when a turret dive is risky asf for both your lane and mine

[@rayzecor]

I have been a jungle main since the start of season 4. I stopped playing around the start of 2024 and randomly got recommended some Tilterella double jungle videos recently. I decided to pick the game back up with this season reset. The game feels absolutely awful, my elo dropped in the meantime and I was in ~plat 2 lobbies with 67% wr, but my teams were often super unresponsive, which mattered a lot more now with grubs, feats of strength, Atakhan, etc. Being the jungler just feels way too stressful, you never get any credit for winning the game but you always get blamed for losing it. I lost my 17th game and uninstalled today, after playing for just 4 days. PS: If anyone is curious, I am a Kha otp, I could have played something like Zac or Amumu which is broken rn but I don't find it fun.

[@leonardo9259]

>hasn't played since 1999 >refuse to play something more akin to the requirements of today >even less being a meta slave >this is horrible Who could've thought

[@rayzecor]

@@leonardo9259 In plat you should be able to play Morg jng and do well, it doesn't matter that I chose to play the one champ I have 1 mill mastery on. Also, I am sure you would agree that jungle has way too much responsibility now, there's no need to belittle one another by exaggerating what I said :)

[@LuLu-uz3lg]

imo they should get rid of smite and do the same thing HotS did with their boss camps (their equivalent to drake/baron etc) after beating the objective, there's a capture field under the spawn of the objective, which you can capture by standing on it, if an enemy stands on it too it's contested until one leaves. (think old skarner) Would lead to teams actually having to roam and do these together.

[@welcometoWWW]

Until people realize low elo league (emerald and below) is functionally different from high elo league (diamond and above) Riot will actually never truly balance this game in any meaningful way. You might as well call low elo Call of Duty and high elo is actually where Leauge of Legends exists.

[@TritonSparrow]

About a year and a half ago when I started, I played mordekaiser top, and then a friend started teaching me more about how to play, and I got stuck into a jungle game, chose Warwick, and fell in love with the role... I don't play actual LoL anymore, just wild rift, but damn if I don't enjoy jungle...

[@punklingyt]

I'm kinda over the Jungle role. Mained ADC for years, and I reached the liberation point of "It doesn't matter if I play good or bad, because my Jungler is the only player that matters in the game."

[@gamera5160]

Jungle is too OP in one sense: You cannot win the game with a jungler who is absolutely brain dead. If any other lane feeds, you can come back. It's hard, but you can do it. If jungle feeds and your jungle is just generally very stupid, you can't get objectives and you just slowly lose the game. If you get an auto-filled jungler who doesn't know the basics of jungling, you're just going to lose. In that sense, it's overpowered.

[@welcometoWWW]

You don't secure objectives if you have laners who give up prio. An inting jg can still secure these if you have laners that didn't int. Inting laners are far more devastating to the impact of the overall team.

[@gamera5160]

@@welcometoWWW You can have prio. You can have fed lanes. You can have everything, but if your jungler recalls right before dragon spawns or is farming on the opposite side of the map, you can't win. You can't win smiteless 4v5's at the objective.

[@GoldenJoy-b1p]

@@gamera5160 You can't win smiteful 4v5 at the objective

[@welcometoWWW]

@ These situations are far less common than the situation I describe. It's literally every game I can't get through a 3-camp clear without someone giving up first blood. Then they'll cry jg diff.

[@gamera5160]

@@welcometoWWW I'm not saying laners don't make the jungler's job impossible sometimes. I'm not saying that if the lanes all collapse, it's always the jungler's fault. I'm saying that if the jungler is bad, it's extremely hard to win. If Top, mid, or bot loses, the rest of the team can carry. If jungle gets gapped, like genuinely gapped and outplayed by their opponent, it is extremely difficult to win.

[@sonsai10]

Beeing the jungler is like you are a seeker in quidditch, you are not playing the same game as everyone else

[@neilrampone105]

The twofold problem with jungling is lanes are more snowbally than ever, so people expect more support from a jungler.... However, there are so many neutral objectives to secure that it's increasingly harder for the jungler to show face in lane without losing all pressure over neutrals or their own jungle.

[@ihazshoopdawoop]

Don't forget the nerfs that Riot arbitrarily made to Smite because people were taking it out of jungle. Bot lane smite became super strong because of guarenteed cannon + gold-sharing items and smite top to do the same but also apply pressure on objectives during fights.

[@StonedDragons]

You can still do it too, try ivern support and you and your jungler just invade the enemy jungle the entire game and starve them out. Hilarious to pull off and see their jungler at like 60 farm at 25 minutes in.

[@kylianos3907]

I personally think smite is too strong. The game is progressively moving more and more focus onto neutral objectives, which does cause more fights which is fun. But it also puts so much pressure onto the junglers. Smite is so strong it's only countered by another smite (or a very small subset of champions). I think the game would be more fun for everyone if a bit of power was moved away from smite. Trying a neutral objective without a jungler should be a strategic risk, not a straight-up throw

[@kenji4330]

what i understood is that the crisis core song puts you into a trance

[@rorocyr5175]

This is where I love the fact I main cho-gath (top), every jungler except nunu gets outsmited.

[@sanchezcarmonaerickyabin1001]

Personally I think that jungle has become a very important role because of how little general players know about it, even some junglers When to invade, when to gank, when to force vertical jungle, when to trade objectives, when to change pathing, when to do full clear, respawn timers, etc. Many concepts to take into account even for the junglers themselves, this difference in complexity compared with how the lines are played, transforms the game in a battle of: 1. The team which has the most “studied” jungler has greater chances to win 2. The team which knows more about the jungle role has even greater chances to win as they know how to help their jungler and counter the enemy’s one So in a world where everybody knows and has mastered the jungle role, it would stop the general feeling of the jungler gap

[@LukeA471]

I just can't stand getting camped by the jungle and them losing nothing for spending all there time ganking my lane

[@Lostenoch]

Playing jng is like having 4 kids crying at the same time and you just woke up at 3 a.m.

[@douglashenrique188]

Smite should actually just be some kind of buff that makes u make camps faster, having it being able to steal objectives makes it so much powerfull

[@steelcry6665]

I think we should go even further. Remove the role almost entirely. Jungle being so accessable for so many champions is not sustainable. Jg should be a supplement to gold or a specific playstyle for specific champions.

[@River_Kawaii]

I think the only options available would be to either buff every other summoner spell to be as versatile and powerful as smite with their own mini quests to boost their power, or to give some sort of mechanic that allows non-junglers to contest objectives. Either an item or perhaps if we go with the "buffing" other summoner spells idea maybe ignite could eventually become a powerful single target "fireball" that could be used on neutral objectives. You'd get more value out of using it against a champion, but it *could* compete with smite for securing objectives.

[@aaronscott7467]

I think it is less of an issue than it used to be, thanks to void grubs being added, but I think it is a combination of the dragon buffs and Baron both being extremely impactful as well as being the only role that can reasonably impact all three lanes. As for how to fix that, the only things I can think of are to significantly buff jungle monsters and to add more walls, so the only champions that can reasonably gank are the ones who can go over walls but that comes at the opportunity cost of them being worse at clearing. As it stands, there really isn't much of a practical difference between a farming jungler and a ganking one, except in what their default is. Of course, this comes with its own costs of making the scaling laners a far safer pick because that would make it far more obvious whether they're going to be ganked out of lane or just left alone

[@pepicolamaster]

As a Zoe main, nothing is funnier to me than picking a smite from a random creep and stealing an objective in the early game

[@DaRealPielover1987]

Make Smite an Item. We already have active items with cooldowns. It solves some of smite issues while allowing for junglers to share some of the objective burden. Have a bad/new jungler on your team? Ask your support to take smite. Have extreme mobility and are behind? Time to get the objective steal with LeBlanc. It could be fun

[@Rivr_Shen]

shout out to the aatrox that forgot to switch off smite and brought it top lane thanks bro

[@zyglotopbrol5492]

He's playing the new meta trust

[@hecatia666]

I honestly don't understand jungling nowadays, no matter how much they make it "easier" It also comes with a psychologically taxing time because you have to be attentive of so many things and getting shouted by potentially 3 people at the same time I also wanna mention that the addition of the Atakhan made it worse because it's super easy to snowball for both teams, it's been horrible lately, there's no breathing room whatsoever

[@NightFore]

What if smite depended on the number of nearby allies when doing an objective? It could emphasize team play and reduce the strength of stealing, while putting more pressure on others roles than jungler.

[@polarroars68]

Can you make a playlist for every role you discuss i wanna binge all the jungle adc and support videos

[@austinthemassive]

As a jungle main, I think they need to remove the sustain from the jungle and it will fix much of smite's problems. Forcing jungles to use it regularly in their clear or sacrifice health is what made it feel balanced in the old days

[@merlin5411]

I’ve had a certain problem most games with jungle, I help the jungle with stuff but then when o request help that would score a kill and push lane further they say “Top doesn’t need ganks” and proceed to never help me throughout the game. And yet when they’re supposedly helping out the other lanes they die in lane or die to my loaner and question why my laner is so fed when I’ve been ganked 6 times over. Now if it was one or two games I wouldn’t be mad, but 7 games of nothing but Jungle not knowing how to properly gank or being the most fragile feather is what ticked me off about Jungle

[@LexClone5]

On and off Jungle Main since Season 4, one of my biggest issues with playing Jungle is the absolute neglect of communication allowed from Riot Games. Limit your pings, limit chatting, your teammates auto-mute at the start of the match, VC’s only allowed for Premades. If I could just tell my Top Lane I’m going for Rift Herald so I can drop it by his turret, I would but the bastard has the whole team on mute

[@SebTheSamMarten]

Maybe I'm biased as a jungle main, but without as many objectives to take as there are, jungling would boil down to 'clear one side, gank 2 lanes, clear other side, gank 2 lanes' and it would just ping-pong back and forth. It also adds a win condition for teams who have matchups that aren't necessarily going to win their lanes outright if they have some way to either keep their lane opponent in lane to keep them from rotating, or out-sustaining them so they have prio for roams to objectives. It's never fun as the jungler feeling like 80% of the game hinges solely on you, especially when you have teammates who have the opportunity to actually follow up on a play with you but they just decide to ignore your pings/chat so they don't miss 4 minions, forcing you to either put yourself at risk to try and solo an objective sneakily or to just give it up and try to find another opportunity elsewhere. Believe me, being nothing but a gank jockey isn't the reason I play league. If they made objectives worth less than they have been (not including the season 15 additions, I think the boots from feats of strength are crazy overpowered and the fact the other team has zero chance to get them is dumb. It should be that the team who wins it gets them for free and the other team has to pay for them. That's still a 750x5 gold lead for the team who got the FoS) then I don't think I'd play jungle at all. I don't want to be a babysitter. It's why I stopped playing support in season 6.

[@zurgu]

This season feels like an actual "jungle diff" season where the jungle is the ONLY role that truly matters. It's insane.

[@DunningofKruger]

Another reason why Jungle is so impactful is they removed the trade offs for ganking/farming. Before, if you did a full clear, most champs would be at half or less hp and therefore couldn’t gank. Consequently, if you ganked, you would more often not have the hp to finish your clear, and would trade xp and golf for ganking. Nowadays, you not only dont lose ho clearing, you HEAL off camps. Meaning that neither decision has any weight, full clear into ganks, gank into full clear. Being able to quickly full clear without losing hp was a strength of a champ or goal of an item build.

[@jdogsful]

Top laners think theyre the team leaders, junglers know that junglers are the team leader.

[@jakz51]

I personally think that objectives should always be a team wide effort and not require only the jungle in some cases. The only thing jungle should be doing alone is their camps.

[@tahakhan1313]

I recently started playing jungle and I can’t believe these insufferable laners who lose lane 1v1 without any jungle intervention especially the top lane and they proceed to blame me the jungler because I decided to help my win con that game.

[@CovenDeez]

Wrong. The only reason why smite is a problem is because my JG refuses to use it in baron pit unlike the enemy team that got it down to a science. The only time I see my JG kill things with smite is my cannon minion. All jokes aside, good video.

[@TheShwei]

i wish there was a point in this video about jungle being the strongest role to one trick because of its insane 1v9 potential

[@acquireTigris]

Y'all remember Janna top smite? Pepperidge farm remembers

[@xBinyWolf]

Feats of strength had the side effect of making people realize that YES IF YOU CAN YOU HAVE TO ROTATE. Now losing an objective could mean losing feats and giving another advantage. Now that more people are rotating you see which people just cries for jungler while getting macrogapped. Bungler is the most blamed role because a few people understand it: adc just have to position good and right-click, toplaners just have to win lane basically, mid and support should be "sudo junglers" but the jungler has to understand every lane matchup to see which lane will get prio, has to understand pathing, prio, enemy jungler early strength and path and basically be the shotcaller of the game, meanwhile the others are still asking "why don't you go for the objective?" Meanwhile the other jungler has bigger burst(basically the smite battle is not 50/50 for example if I am a rammus Vs a blue kayn(not even a chogath that OUTDAMAGES SMITE with R alone or a nunu that has a 2000+ true damage combo) when baron is at 2300ish he e-w-q-smite and gets it 90% of the time since coordinating burst with a teammate is impossible in solo. Jungle diff is indeed pretty rare, junglers are in the hands of the laners to setup/follow calls because a winning jungler with no follow up loses to a losing jungler with good follow.

[@Lucas-en8vp]

The old old map has so much more rizz than the modern design

[@matthewmoran1866]

I think the other huge factor in Jungle being such a game defining role is that Jungle is the most impactful role in the early game and in an environment like solo queue, the early game is the most stable and predictable part of the game. A late game champion (or a late game oriented role like ADC) can lose the game before they ever get to their power spike, but there's no way to take away a jungler's impact in the early game, especially if they know how to capitalize on it. That's why jungle is the most over represented role at the top of the solo queue ladder (at least in 2020 when I saw stats for it), because a smart jungler can absolutely dominate the early game.

[@silvieserene]

This is the correct answer. But the flip side of this is Riot has steadily taken power out of lategame. You know how it used to be when if certain champions hit 6 items you just lost? Not true anymore.

[@matthewmoran1866]

@@silvieserene yeah, Riot has really messed up the last few years trying to make ADCs strong on 1 item, rather than just letting them be turboscaling threats that can wreck house in the late game. ADC should be the role of inevitability.

[@markjaphetsegui5558]

The problem being a jungler now a days is 1. they don't guard or wards your camps when the enemy is 100 % gonna invade or steal 2. they expect you to wipe their sorry asses when they die before you take your 3rd-4th camps 3. expect you to take an objective solo making you vulnerable to being spotted (especially when your a tank jungler) 4. doesn't listen to warning and cry why no one warn them the enemy jungle or mid laner come to them 5. despite assisting them in their laning phase they still somehow manage to feed the enemies 6. expect you to be a FUCKING meepo and respond to all lane at the same time

[@manuelbonelli3690]

Another problem with the jungler is smurfing. Jungle and then maybe top is the most op role if you are smurfing. A smurf jungler will win close to 100% of the times because of objectives and map presence, while a smurf adc will shit on you in lane but if he gets caught once you will still lose the game. And this again is related to the fact that the jungler has so much importance on the map that it almost feels like you need two junglers in your team to keep up with the amount of stuff going on

[@shizo66]

smite defines jungle, its fine. Ive heard more challengers say support is the most important role.

[@dazeen9591]

It's always jungle diff cuz my team has the moronic perma farmer who gets 0 objectives and enemy team has the perma ganker who's in my lane 10 times in 2 minutes

[@brox2098]

When jg baby rages and afk, you not only lose a player but also smite

[@TheArrowofLight]

Meanwhile me just casually getting the enemy jungle to smite early just so I can steal it with W and take the objective for myself while my team's jungle gets the other objective Kek.

[@sharp7j]

It aint smite. Jg still cant get big objectives in the game without team backup. The issue is they can take any lead they get and influence every lane with it. And they can CHOOSE which lane to influence. Giving them even more agency. You just have so much freedom and control over the entire macro of the game.

[@AngryTheGnome]

Cho'Gath laughing in the background

[@jametsu]

I think that smite being in the game is the only thing that makes jungle a relevant role. Support is all about vision control and the lanes are about securing turrets and pushing waves for priority. Therefore, jungle is in charge of the epic monsters and securing them with smite. I think the new season changes are great because it encourages more team play and encourages fights for objectives and more team fights. I can't remember the last time in season 14, if ever, where a support roamed to grubs to help secure them. Now even in bronze/silver (my current elo) games, supports will sometimes now roam to grubs to at least be another body in the teamfight. They still won't ward before it spawns because they don't understand what vision control means. But, at least they're trying to help secure them. I'm really tempted to make a google slide show presentation to briefly explain to my teammates that I will help them but only if they help me with objectives when the time is right. I'm obviously not going to ask them to contest when my mid and ADC are under tower and we have no vision of the area.

[@0verl0rd67]

I love that League players are actually wanting to invade level 1 in soloQ, it's so fun putting my practice to use

[@Pinkskull69420]

>riot heavily weights value toward neutral objectives >i wonder why jungle is the most impactful role???