Why EVERY Transit Map is Wrong

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[@FoxMacLeod2501]

I mean... It's a _diagram;_ not a map. There's no distance scale in the corner. If it _was_ to scale, they probably would not have added the walking times. No offense, but I thought that was obvious? I mean, you don't assume wiring diagrams or fluid flow schematics are to scale, right? It always just struck me as I would guess was intended - transit diagrams tell you the order of stops, where things link up, stuff like that. Transit _maps,_ which actually *are* supposed to be geographically accurate, are overlaid onto, well, geographically accurate maps. Diagrams, I've always thought, are clearly _not_ geographically accurate, nor, often, to scale, the idea being to clearly and quickly differentiate between a diagram and a map, to anyone looking at it. Am I the only one?

[@Mullkaw]

As a Jay Foreman enjoyer I'm with you on this one chief

[@Kwpolska]

I agree, the video misses the point of transit diagrams entirely. They are used to figure out how to get from point A to point B using the transit system. To do this, you need to know which lines go where, and where you can change lines so that you get where you need. The walking time might help you decide between routes, or decide to go part of the way on foot. But transit diagrams aren't supposed to tell you where the nearest tourist trap is or what geographic features are there in a place. And if you make them to scale, the information needed to plan a route just becomes unreadable.

[@theearlofwellington]

You're right, but I would still call transit diagrams "maps." Maps don't have to fit into the Eurocentric cartographic tradition of 100% accurately representing the world - every map tells a story. Each mapmaker has to make careful decisions about what to include, and these are informed by the map's purpose. Transit diagrams serve a very specific purpose, but they are great at what they do because they only include what is relevant to the user. They are still maps, though, because they still convey spatial information.

[@readjordan2257]

Im starting to suspect theres a wide population of people worldwide that have issues with maps & globes because they assumed things randomly about the maps and sizes/metrics thereof (math major here, ill use metric the math way mostly) and also assumed everyone else was with them on these assumptions..and instead of calling themselves out or letting it go or laughing it off...they handle it by... whatever this is. By... making KZbin videos and social movements about why maps are wrong instead of admitting they were wrong and the world shouldn't revolve around the expectable and otherwise forigvable misunderstandings of children.

[@MaxLai_0104]

I mean, if you think about it, you're not wrong. But the thing is, some people don't read the fine text in the map and just give the map a quick read and immediately assume that the distances were to scale.

[@DominoLarry]

This is not "the problem" with every transport map, this is their advantage! Underground you only need to know how to get from A to B, not the exact geography

[@sonicboy678]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a double-edged sword. It's great for generally showing service patterns, but the general inaccuracy makes gauging relativity damn near impossible. This carries the risk of doing a disservice to prospective passengers by directing them to more out-of-the-way stations, especially when dealing with more complex systems like those in London and NYC. Having both a diagram for service patterns and a geographically-accurate map is probably the best thing to go with, though striving to maintain a semblance of geographical accuracy on a diagram is probably worth trying to attain.

[@Wildcard71]

@@sonicboy678 The best solution is to use a diagram *and* a map.

[@louiscypher4186]

​@@sonicboy678 That's a phantom problem. Even if we take the minority of people who need geographical reference to understand the city they are in, most metro networks have trip planners which routes people to the station they need to reach. Thus eliminating the need to reference at all, they only need to know which stop is there's the railway diagram provides assistance so they understand how many stops remain until they get off.

[@car_tar3882]

⁠@@sonicboy678this can also be fixed with station names for example in dc want to see a ball game go to navy yard-ballpark go to a museum go to Smithsonian capital? Capital south portrait gallery? China town? Gallery place-Chinatown. Most all our major destinations have a station name.

[@suprabrajbhandari548]

Jay foreman has already talked about this and the inventor of this map design in UK. This is the most effective way to make subway map

[@TheMcIke]

Love Jay's Map Men productions...

[@peskypigeonx]

You mean most common. NYC doesn’t follow most of those, and is still as useful as London, if not a bit more, from my experience in both.

[@himagainstill]

Horses for courses. In London's case, with a dense core and sparse suburbs, the diagram is effective there. In NYC, where stations aren't necessarily closer together in the core than at the fringes, the more geographical style works better. Paris, whose Metro is somewhat enclosed by the city boundaries, uses a cross between the two approaches in its Metro map, and a more geographical style for its RER map.

[@christopherstokes9393]

Honestly, I think this is only pointing out the obvious. Transit diagrams are *supposed* to be topological: only the stations and the routes between them are important. The geographical distances are irrelevant: I think everyone who understands the purpose of a transit diagram understands this. Calling a transit diagram "wrong" because it doesn't show geographical distances, is like calling a spoon "wrong" because it can't be used for cutting.

[@sonicboy678]

I mean, with enough effort, you _can_ cut through some things with a spoon.

[@davidwebb913]

What a clickbait title. That's like saying "Why EVERY Nutrition Label is Wrong", then go on to say nutrition labels don't tell us the flavours of the contents.

[@londonundergroundfan1563]

Digital Maps are great, especially for details. But in my opinion, a paper/pdf/fixed map is essential, because you get an overview and understand the system better. Also, for the ability to put the map everywhere, on stations, bus stops, tourist leaflets, etc. a complete and well-designed non-digital version is essential.

[@severindupuche2232]

Personally don't see anything wrong with these kinds of metro maps - they do exactly what they're designed to do, which is tell you how to get from one station to another - they don't need to be geographically accurate, because it's not trying to be a road map or walking map, which means they can be neater, more organised and hence easier to read

[@silver_bowling]

exactly, they aren't a perfect representation and they don't need to be. If someone is looking at a transit map, they already know they need to take a train, and they already know what their destination station is. They just need to know which train to take, and these maps do just that.

[@ChristianJiang]

I wouldn’t put the word “professional” anywhere near Johnny Harris haha

[@flotinodibeppo6534]

"how can people be expected to understand a subway map without a north arrow!!!"

[@tmbocheeko]

As a Staten Islander, I can't relate to this video at all. My subway map is a single, nearly straight line 😂😂😂

[@eechauch5522]

I think there are two kinds of scenarios, where different transit maps are relevant. For Subways, Metros, S-Bahn, etc. having a diagram makes a lot of sense. Chances are you’re trips will be quite long anyways, so leaving the system isn’t a real option. If you’re trying to show trams and busses I think being geographically realistic (not necessarily exact) is much more important. Frequencies, speed and distances between stations are lower and lines generally follow the streets, so it’s very useful to be able to see which stations are in walking distance of each other. Walking a couple of meters to a different stop could mean much better service, but to make that call you need to be able to estimate the distance.

[@adrianmeland1035]

Johnny sent me great vid

[@lizzeyflower]

😂 lets wait when sea people come for that same reason

[@bebokRZly]

Today with maps in phones, this is only estimated but still useful. About London map, there is whole series under name Map Men and London unfinished :)

[@davidguthary8147]

Just remember that no map is right, and no map is wrong, and all map is map.

[@michaelkugler7836]

paris ratp has two transit maps, a simplified diagram one which is usually given on the handheld maps and shown inside the metro trains themselves, but in every metro station is a to scale map of the city of paris and parts of its suburbs with each metro stop at its correct geographic location. it's a proper map with monuments street names public buildings school hospitals museums and rivers parks and everything else represented. it helps that paris is very circular shaped and fits into square neatly

[@Wildcard71]

Hamburg has diagrams in stations and trains and maps at bus stops and both at station exits.

[@williamsmith9026]

Who even knew this was an issue? Not me!

[@wojeff]

Tbh, that old London subway map looks sexy. We should increase map literacy and have more standardize diagrams

[@karimhammam9105]

No hate, go watch the vid done by the map men. I have spoken.

[@marizz3]

"A professional fan of maps" - same! 😁

[@jonoghue]

The MTA does have a live map online, that is geographically accurate and can be zoomed, and shows where trains are, and shows line/station closures in real time. It's buggy and needs some work but it's an excellent solution

[@CaptainDripp]

“The Weekendest” is a 3rd Party web Site that does the same thing as MTA’s Live map but 10x better

[@scottydude456]

I like having both the geographic map and easy to read new diagram on the NYC Subway, but apple and google maps have become a lot better in the past few years for transit

[@driaan_louw]

In Taipei rn and the metro map is NOTHING like the real one

[@xvsj-s2x]

Great clarity ❤ Thxs

[@gamermapper]

Is it that hard to put both the maps on the subway station if it's such a big deal for them specifically in new york

[@lucaswalters2181]

I live in Utah and use UTA when I commute into the city. A while ago I discovered the Transit app that UTA uses for route maps and even ticketing now. It’s super helpful. Dunno if anyone else’s transit authorities use the app, but it’s got all the stuff you talk about in here of geographical accuracy, choosing your distance from the ground, and live vehicle tracking (that part’s crowdsourced).

[@edwardmiessner6502]

These are subway diagrams, not true maps. If the subway maps were drawn to scale, in many large cities they would be unreadable.

[@mr_possible6197]

Loved it!!

[@TheLeotedesco]

This guy is literally and figuratively going places... Great content

[@DanielsimsSteiner]

🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@mastertrams]

Is it great content though? Because he literally misunderstands the entire premise of a transit map. They are literally not designed to show accurate distances. They are designed to show you how to get from Station A to Station B. Do you assume an electrical circuit diagram is geographically accurate when you look at it, for example?

[@bracco23]

No shout-out to jay foreman and it's video on the history of the London tube map?

[@mattematt]

Having incorrect walking distance isn't wrong, it is just a trade off we're willing to make to have a much more legible map

[@aftokratory]

My opinion is that transit diagrams do not have to be *geographically accurate* but should be *topologically* accurate.

[@Trapjrt]

Hey this is a great vid

[@mohammedsarker5756]

NYC Subway Map is the way to go for me

[@asherjackson4504]

This isn’t a problem, it’s the point! Transit maps are not meant to be spatially accurate. That’s the entire purpose!

[@edificity]

Great video, thanks. I find schematic maps much more reassuring than the colourful spaghetti you get when you try to represent geography

[@williamsmith9026]

Johnny linked to this video but, seems like an interesting channel so Ima sub and check it out

[@williamsmith9026]

@marsalisvincent 👍

[@T4D1004]

For me this is merely a summary, but nothing new on that topic. Heard and read all of that multiple times. But right at the start, what´s wrong with spacing stations closer or further apart and not according to walking distance? These maps are schematic and show how the whole network is situated, how lines and stops are integrated with each other. On the other hand, you can´t always walk exactly where a metro line runs underground. So maybe geographically it is correct, just the walking distance rises if one has to take quite a detour on street level. Just a thought...

[@vladikdes]

Read more about transit diagrams in Ilya Birman's e-book 'Designing Transit Maps'

[@pedrog06]

Looks like the video stops abruptly

[@SmokeyBCN]

sorry, I find your take *completely* wrong. for starters these are not MAPS. They are DIAGRAMS, designed to get people from A to B in a city they are already familiar with, without the need to use "outside" world landmarks and waypoints. They are designed for residents, regular commuters, not tourists who worry about how to go from one sightseeing point to another. Details like where north is or where a river is are superfluous, and detract from the overall legibility.

[@sonicboy678]

I'm not sure if you've noticed the flaw in your stance.

[@bak4320]

As long as there’s a scale or real world reference I’m good. CTA will attached the grid number to street names on the maps/audio announcements. I would argue Johnnys comments about knowing when you’re under the river doesn’t make a ton of sense when it comes to visitors though

[@johngorman6641]

What happened to the blue line fr

[@Tata22334]

Here's the thing, it doesn't matter! - Jay Foreman

[@strukki2]

The loud background music is distructing.

[@izimsi]

The most obvious problem is that trains cannot do 45 degrees turns with zero radius, I'm shocked you didn't mention that.

[@crispinleung]

Lmaooo “Ahl-gate” really triggered me it’s literally English pronounce it right 😂

[@bigdconstruction322]

ur name is crispin, that sucks

[@crispinleung]

@@bigdconstruction322 and why is that 😂 never heard of the roman saint?

[@dh00mketu]

Just put the distance beside the time.

[@varunkamoji4091]

There was absolutely no point of this video

[@alb3108]

Nope

[@diogoaluai2]

Cool insight ahaha

[@annasargeant5859]

At 0.15 it is pronounced oldgate east

[@accuratebalance5097]

At least when I make metro diagrams, I care about the distance *only* when it's painfully obvious longer than those near it. Taking Shenzhen for example, on Line 1, the distance between SZU and Taoyuan is obviously longer, and there is a line in planning that goes across Line 1 there without an interchange, so, double the distance on the diagram.

[@nekomi_ch]

For me the Hong Kong MTR map is perfect, but its probably just me used to it

[@IIAOPSW]

I think the digital solution is a cop out. Pointing out that the current map distorts Manhattan doesn't tell the full story. Yes the map distorts geography some places for the sake of clarity, but it doesn't divorce it completely. It preserves the outline of surface features well enough to recognize even if they are stretched a bit along some axis. More importantly, it generally preserves distances locally. Meaning you can pick any neighborhood and the relative distances will be accurate when measured, but the distance between to far away points may not align. In my own revision to the NY map, the emphasis is on breaking things into patterns. All shades of Green go to Queens, anything Brown goes Bronx, Blue to Broadway Junction. In Manhattan I put one label per row of the street grid where a subway stops instead of labeling each station independently. There's just a big ruler running down the Hudson river listing out the streets 14, 23, 34, 42, 53... NY is a highly compressible city with lots of simple patterns in both its subway layout and its street layout. The solution to an information dense yet clean and intuitive map is to take advantage of the patterns in the information the map is supposed to show.

[@BrightTripTravel]

This is awesome input! Would love to see your NYC map!

[@IIAOPSW]

@@BrightTripTravel I emailed you

[@Owish444]

I mean public transit also sucks in the usa so I think it fit it perfectly

[@Abigael317]

So then it's NOT "every" map. My nearest city has only 1 underground station in the whole city. Most areas are only served by a handful of buses. There are a maximum of 2 train lines (for downtown only, everywhere else only has 1). Misrepresentation, Bright Trip. Disappointed.

[@1197540k]

The geographical maps didn’t seem that complex honestly. I like them more I think. I thought it was intuitive, no?

[@DR_IBRA]

For johhn Harris

[@Sir1ri]

People rely on subway maps other than subway stations??? I have never ever thought about why subway maps don't include walking distance etc

[@catreader9733]

I almost stopped watching immediately, because it seemed that the presenter thought transit diagrams were maps. I learned the difference before I was old enough to need to know. That is not to say I have not been misled regarding distance and time when using a static transit diagram in an unfamiliar area.

[@ommy7672]

Except in New York City!!

[@andrewmcgarrity7642]

I love Johnny's take on subway maps. Makes so much sense!

[@konanhuet623]

it's not wrong, it's a feature...

[@Boypogikami132]

Isn’t Johnny Harris a dude who manipulates stuff?

[@vivianmiranda397]

Not binary, it is a spectrum? That is woke transit! 😂😂😅😅😅 Great video :)

[@louiitrains]

This seemed very Johnny Harris inspired! The voice-over, the editing, the misinformed basic opinions...

[@TroyVan6654]

*diagram

[@georgevavoulis4758]

Best maps for public transit are the one like the TTC transit maps of 1990s that had all the streets in exact scale with subway lines and bus surface routs . Now somebody in TTC changed it to the most illogical useless map ever .

[@jan-lukas]

44,444 views, nice

[@punishedpinecone4772]

I already knew what this video was going to say before I clicked on it, and I dis so just to say that this is petty and unreasonable clickbait.

[@mattyjpati]

The name of the video is a little unnecessarily cruel... They're not "wrong" per se, but they present information in different formats based on how the information is perceived, and how it needs to be perceived. As you and other commenters mentioned, when you're in a subway tunnel for example, you're not going to care about the geography. You just want to know which lines connect to where. In fact, I would go so far as to say the less "geographical" or "map-like" and more "diagramatic" and "schematic" the transit "map" is, the better. We already have Google Maps to help us discern the geographical and spatial qualities of where we are in any one spot on the globe. We don't need to know how the route traverses any landmarks or whether it follows any major freeways... That's not why we read the transit maps. We read them because we just want to know what will take us from the station we're at now, to the the station we need to get to in the most direct manner possible.

[@MKNYC_]

I love the current NYC map, it’s pretty geographically correct. These one line diagram type maps always throw me off.

[@gargargargar]

I’ve literally only heard New Yorkers say that, and no offense, but I think that’s just because y’all are too used to the MTA map lol. A diagram (the Vignelli map in New York’s case) is SOOO much more helpful for those who actually need to look at the map regularly, aka visitors and people not familiar with New York. Outsiders like us are much more concerned with getting from point A to point B rather than having a geographically accurate map of New York. We can go to Google Maps for that

[@josegarciarodriguez9580]

NYC Subway map! 😍

[@balsaque]

u r really cool

[@BrightTripTravel]

You are

[@_LoFi_Mania_]

​@@BrightTripTravelyou are

[@gewnurb]

​@@_LoFi_Mania_he is

[@TheProjecttian]

*This is getting serious on different levels. Something does have to be done.*

[@qwertyTRiG]

Digital maps fit on my tiny phone screen. Paper maps are much larger, and allow me to get an overview.

[@thetrainguy4]

This video has fantastic editing. Very much emulating the styles of Cheddar and Vox, so not unique however. The topic has been addressed so many times though- you are just copying others.

[@matpk]

This video is poor

[@StephanieLuff]

I still use the static NYC subway map. The live one stresses me out.

[@reptongeek]

I have the live map but can't get it to work properly. It's too slow on my tablet