Why Fiberglass Fails (and How to Fix It) | E010

[@clstjam4321]

A composting toilet is basically a human litterbox and everyone I know who has used one has cursed it within a few months. Even Dan and Kika from Sailing Uma have recently said they're not reinstalling a composting toilet in their refit.

[@livingforsail]

Interesting. I’ve used one at a cabin and it was pretty good. Interesting about sailing Uma… that tells me something 🤔

[@MaShcode]

And overheard are the curses of those emptying their black water holding tank 😂 I’ve used composting toilets for years. Like anything they have their advantages and disadvantages as it all depends on the application and maintenance just like a conventional system. The one aspect that gets totally overblown is odor. Never had a problem. After all the most hearty sailors swear by bucket and chuckit.

[@livingforsail]

@@MaShcode I think you are right... like most things, there are pros and cons and no such thing as the "silver bullet"

[@MaShcode]

@@livingforsail Immho, the best composting toilets are custom DIY. And a full boat restoration is the perfect excuse to do it. Heheh. Keep in mind the benefits are vertical as well as horizontal. Think of it as encouraging a healthy diet, increasing available storage, and simplifying plumbing and wiring. Having a composting toilet as a second option makes perfect sense.

[@waughthogwaugh3078]

Education is expensive, however you come by it. Kudos for sharing.

[@livingforsail]

That is the truth! Thanks 🙏

[@ssvlaunch]

Pull it up! You made the right decision. Not that big of a deal when wet, after it cured it would be a major pain!

[@livingforsail]

Yeah… that’s kind of what was buzzing through my mind as I was staring at it…

[@DuriasFamily]

Love it, Jon. Every time I watch your videos I keep saying (out loud) ”how does he know how to do all this stuff?!” Keep’em coming! -Josh

[@livingforsail]

Haha! Thanks Josh. Glad that you’re enjoying the videos. Clearly, sometimes I forget what I’m doing…🤦‍♂️

[@davidschnell2591]

We are BIG fans of composting marine heads. Our first sailboat, a 1966 Spencer 42 had an “Electrosan” unit instead of a holding tank. When that unit became unserviceable, we switched to a Natures Head composting toilet. We vented it as directed and it had zero odor (unlike many holding tanks we have known). As Puget Sound cruisers, we would empty the liquid container about once a week at Marina restrooms when we stopped. The solids we composted in our yards at home every 6-12 months. Very easy! Liked it so much, we installed one in our new boat. Try it, you’ll be glad.😊

[@livingforsail]

Thank you for the feedback! 🙏👍

[@svlamancha9877]

Great video. Definitely the right call to remove the fiberglass and start over. 👍

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, I think so too. 🙌

[@thepigwillfly5869]

We have an Airhead compositing head and it works great. There is no smell and we gained all the space under the v-berth after removing the old holding tank. The previous owner did the install, a top notch job. Because compositing toilets sit a bit higher than a normal head, he build a recessed floor for it to sit in that makes it normal height. Additionally, he removed the factory urine container, hooked up a hose, ran it under the bathroom floor and put a 2.5 gallon plastic container in the shallow bilge area. Very neat, clean install. There is no way I would have a traditional marine head.

[@livingforsail]

Ok. Thanks for the data point from an actual user. I appreciate that. The height issue is something that I’d need to solve … 🤔

[@thepigwillfly5869]

Honestly, the was my biggest issue too. My wife preferred her feet touched the floor and the toilet was secure while the boat was rocking. If you want, I can send you photos of my installation. @@livingforsail

[@livingforsail]

@@thepigwillfly5869 I am interested. If you have some pics you can send them to livingforsail at gmail dot com. Thanks!

[@spencerallen4459]

OK I now see the method to your madness. The inside skin is substantial AND structural. Definitely on the right track. Thanks for bringing us along

[@livingforsail]

Yep. Thanks for watching! 🙏👍🙌

[@SLBoats-h8z]

You might have to generate a Living for Sail music track. Nice selection! And your willingness to bite-the-bullet and undo a mistake, even if only a “suspicion” speaks volumes. Good choice! Lastly, when it comes to the heads, I honestly don’t know if there’s any aromatic way to keep sewage on a boat. It’s like asking if we prefer our poop wet or dry. We might laugh at the idea of a poop-deck, but the old sailors were onto something. That said, I’ll be sorely disappointed if you don’t at least name your forward head “The Rodeo” or “Bull Rider”.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the feedback! I’m glad that I fixed it early on when it was an easier job. Agreed that there’s no perfect way to handle the head… I think I will put an 8 second countdown timer in the forward head. Ha! 🙌

[@fonhollohan2908]

Smart call to remove that fiberglass and clean prep it properly. otherwise, it would've nagged you forever. I think you made the right call on that one.

[@livingforsail]

Exactly. Haha. I think you’ve figured me out. It would be in the back of my mind for some time… 👍

[@garryundy1777]

defiantly the right thing pulling up the glass but i don't think i would have, to lazy 😁

[@livingforsail]

I really thought about it for a good 20-30 minutes but I had to decide before it hardened up too much. … Thanks for the feedback! 🙌

[@evilla7579]

It is obviously that you did thorough research before starting with the epoxy and fiberglass work, and watched probably a lot of refit channels before starting this massive job. Well prepared, compliments on that.

[@livingforsail]

Thank you for your feedback! Much appreciated 🙏👍🙌

[@stuartmckie5679]

I would absolutely have pulled up the new glass, as you've stated, it was a schoolboy error, which taught you a lesson. If you leave it, it may be fine for a while, but eventually it would have failed and would be so much worse than just pulling up a bit of glass.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, that’s essentially what I landed on after several minutes of contemplating… better to take my medicine sooner rather than later…

[@petrpodobsky7005]

There is angle grinder with regulation of RPM. When sanding with it you will have less dust everywhere. I used large sheet of used peel ply for preweting glass. Petr

[@livingforsail]

That makes sense. Thanks for the tip! 👍🙌

[@powellkwd40]

I love seeing what you are doing and how you are doing it. Thanks for taking the time to explain it and document it on video.

[@livingforsail]

I’m glad to hear that you’re enjoying the series. 👍🙌

[@globyois]

Composting head . . .FANTASTIC! And you get NO GRIEF FROM THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS or the Coast Guard.

[@livingforsail]

Thank you for the input! 🙏🙌👍

[@936anyst]

Excellent job! And thank you for playing great music that fits with what's being done...

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the feedback. I’m glad you enjoyed the tracks. It’s always interesting to me to see how the music tends to fall in to place (at least I think so). Cheers!👍🙌🙏

[@jackdbur]

You can get a shroud for your grinder that attaches to your vacuum. A dust separator is a very good investment for grinding dusty materials as fine dust blocks vacuum filters super fast.

[@livingforsail]

I have a shroud for my plug In grinder but it’s too deep for the flapper disks that I’m using. It’s the right height for a diamond grinder but that will probably make a mess of the surface… I run everything through a separator and can’t imagine life without it! Thanks for the feedback! 🙏👍

[@frederickszalay1484]

Your skills are amazing, and you video presentations are ultra professional. The work you are doing is a joy to watch!

[@livingforsail]

That is some very high praise. Thank you kindly! 🙏🙏🙏. Thank you for reaching out!

[@jeanrobillard8630]

I have equiped my sailboat with a "composting" toilet ten years ago and I would never go back to a normal head: never. It is easy to manage, and very practical. As for the smell, well as long as the ventilation pipe and vent are properly placed and installed, smell is not an issue. But, when it is often used, it is true that it is possible to get some earthy wifs, and that is just because the composting process is striving a little bit. But again, a proper installation of the vent is an absolute condition. The only thing that I would suggest, and something that I will do myself, is to install a solar vent for the ventilation pipe outside the cabin: this way, I will not have to use electricity from my batteries in order to evacuate the smell just right after using the head. Cheers!

[@livingforsail]

Thank you for the opinion. Do you use the Airhead version?

[@jeanrobillard8630]

Hi! Yes, that is the one.@@livingforsail

[@kyle87616]

Late to the party here but our experience with seasonal use of our airhead composting toilet was very positive. No smell unlike all our previous holding tanks and hoses, held up to steady use during one week cruises, and end of season was a simple empty out into a garbage bag of sawdust like material followed by a rinse and scrub. Especially in the situation where you can have a traditional backup, my vote would be to go for one and leave the through-hull etc in place. After a season or two of use you can come back and permanently close everything off if you like it.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the feedback. That’s a good way to look at it. Thanks! 🙏👍🙌

[@user-jb5dv6vh6j]

Yep! I would have done exactly what you did, too.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah. Better safe than sorry I’d say… 👍🙌

[@robertscholz4486]

You made the right decision ... the likelihood that you will ever have the boat stripped down to this point again is almost nil. Do it the right way now to avoid issues in the future --- no brain'er. As for the composting head issue, I really think that you need to consider your intended use for the boat. I personally don't see all that much difference -- the smell can be managed with both types of heads, but the composting type is a much more hands on approach (no pun intended). If you are going to keep the other head as a marine head, is there really much of an advantage? Having two heads and holding tanks aboard gives you quite a decent capacity for black water and should minimize the frequency of the pump outs, whereas the composting toilet will need to be dealt with more often (dumping the urine collection tank -- which creates much of the distasteful odor). If you intend to be out at sea past the 3 mile mark regularly in your travels, or keep the boat at a slip with full services -- a quick pump out of the holding tanks isn't all that much of a chore. As you stated the primary advantage to the composting system up front would be in space gained by the loss of the holding tank -- are you really desperate for space on a 40+ foot boat? As for the "bucking bull" aspect of the head location -- it could be rough under way, but athwart ships is a better configuration as you will not be thrown off of the throne by side to side motion. You are more likely to use this head under anchor than under way since you will have the aft head closer to the cockpit. Keep up the great work!

[@livingforsail]

Thanks again for the great feedback here. It’s a good point. I’m not really hard up for space on the boat… I’ll keep plugging away and thinking about it. Cheers! 👍🙌

[@mcheney06]

I enjoy my composting toilet the biggest downside is the urine tank and emptying it, but it’s nice having less mechanical things that can break or clog

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@andrewmoylan6295]

G'day John, great to see you back at it. Mate, We all live and learn, and in your case, you did the right thing to prepare the surface correctly, Bet you won't do it again

[@livingforsail]

Thanks Andrew. Yeah, I hope you’re right. The funny thing was that I had been thinking and planning that step all morning and then skipped it… ha.

[@jessefalsone1247]

The string caveat to wiping with solvent is to use a totally clean rag or paper towels. An expert told me that it's far better to grind/sand and vacuum as surface prep than to use a solvent with anything but a perfectly clean rag.

[@livingforsail]

Yes. 100% agree. I try to only use clean paper towel and if I’m in a particularly fussy mood I wet the surface with a clean acetone paper towel and then wipe up with a dry clean piece before it evaporates. 👍

[@theobservatory9163]

Hey Jon, I’ve just binged your first 10 episodes. Mate, really enjoyed it!!!

[@livingforsail]

Haha. Right on! I’m glad to hear that you’re enjoying the project. Cheers! 🙏👍🙌

[@charlesmcdonald5465]

I’ve seen some other boat refitters take a bath and make it just a dedicated shower? Dunno lol but I’ve seen it a few times. Keep on truckn man!

[@livingforsail]

Thanks! Yeah. It looks like I have many options to consider! 😳🤔🙌

[@martyb3783]

Had you not pulled it back up, you would have regretted it, even if you had no issues, you would have known about it. Great video!

[@livingforsail]

I think you’re absolutely correct. Thanks! 🙏👍🙌

[@mr.e7022]

I had a composting head on board. Used it for four months while I cruised from Annapolis to Knoxville TN. Smell was like damp earth. Our boat now has one marine head, not going to change it. I think you did the right thing to remove the glass and clean the surface. It is the foundation for additional layers.

[@livingforsail]

It sounds like you removed the composting head then? Thanks for the feedback! 🙌

[@mr.e7022]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The composting head was on our previous boat, a North Sea 27. We now have a Hunter 36. If the holding tank on the Hunter fails then I would consider a composting head since major surgery (cabinets and fiberglass) would have to be cut in order to replace the holding tank. @@livingforsail

[@livingforsail]

@@mr.e7022 gotcha. That makes it pretty clear. So it sounds like you have had a positive experience with them.

[@jonunya3128]

thanks for the video, always enjoy your content. I'm all for you pulling up the glass, if it was me I'd like to think I would but..

[@livingforsail]

Thank you! I was on the fence about it but the clock was ticking… in the end I’m glad I did it.

[@bikerfry]

Natures Head....not doing that again.....Separett....just replaced the Natures head with our second separett

[@livingforsail]

Interesting. I had not seen the separett before… I will do some more research! Thanks! 🙏🙌👍

[@bikerfry]

@@livingforsail It is pretty much the same as all the others, but you Poop in a bag, so disposal is super easy.

[@robinhodgkinson]

I probably wouldn't have pulled it up unless you had really greased it up somehow - a few fingerprints and smudges will make little difference on an area like that. But you're there, I'm not... While epoxy doesn't like a greasy surface, it's not that pedantic, particularly if it was well coarse abraded in which case there should be plenty for it to hang onto. I'll lay odds if you left it and tried to lift it afterwards, it would not be going anywhere!

[@livingforsail]

I imagine you’re correct about that. I figured the easiest time to fix it was now and I didn’t want it in the back of my mind… cheers!

[@jimscheltens2647]

I would have just left the glass, I suspect there would have been enough bond to handle the shear between the layers. One thing that I would like to see is a section in a web page that would list the different special tools, abrasives, etc. that you have found particularly useful and why. But no doubt you have way too much to do without adding tasks. Nice video.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks. It probably could have been fine for many many years… still, nice to not have to worry about it. Epoxy is tenacious stuff and bonds to just about everything. I would like to put more long term resources online. Time is tight at the moment but we will see. Cheers! 👍🙌

[@TheCreat]

I don't have personal experience with composting toilets (only "classic" with holding tank/through-hole), but watching Salt & Tar (ep. 226, from roughly the 10 minute mark) I learned that people apparently commonly get bug infestations in those. Miniscule, tiny bugs, barely visible. These are harmless to you, and may or may not even help the composting, but apparently they were very grossed out by them crawling basically everywhere. They didn't go into much detail, but it might be more common in warmer climates. In any case, might be worth spending a couple of minutes of googling to find more real-world experiences from others around the topic.

[@livingforsail]

I’ll check out that video. Thanks for the heads up. That’s one aspect I had definitely not considered… 🤔 Thanks for the input. 🙏👍

[@jackdbur]

A dusting of quicklime or diatomasious earth might fix any bugs and some cedar or camphor sawdust.

[@viktorbrattsti9397]

I would keep the forward toilet but ditch the tank. I don't need two holding tanks..

[@livingforsail]

I would like to be rid of one of them at least… thanks for your feedback. 🙌

[@davidgarces4925]

Look into the coompost toilet Made in England. It has a carbon filter and electric mixing, along with just removing a bucket instead of the toilet a plus. If the composting toilet is just a backup the carbon filter could last for years

[@livingforsail]

I think that’s the one that Aladino is trying to get ahold of. I’ll look into it. Cheers. 🙏👍

[@The33TIGGER33]

I would have pulled the glass back off, Otherwise it would have been on your mind all the time.

[@livingforsail]

That’s kind of what I was thinking after 10-20 minutes of staring at it and contemplating my next move.

[@jvodan]

Far easier to throw away a pot of epoxy or wipe off uncured epoxy than it is to grind off mistakes

[@livingforsail]

Amen to that!!! 👍

[@markbuskens6070]

You never change the arrangement of bi axial Matt side always goes down or toward the old glass being repaired.

[@livingforsail]

I put the mat down towards the old glass except for the top layer. I’ve seen experienced shipwrights do that because any sanding knocks off the mat and not the structural biax. Makes sense to me but I’m open to other opinions.

[@robertmstarr9028]

Composting toilets work well for some people, but they don't work well for folks who have loose or liquid stools. An alternative I've seen is a "dry toilet" from "Atom Voyager" installed on several refits he's done. An in-depth link is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHTHdIN8j92Ljbs The toilet is simple, requires no plumbing, uses a small 12v fan for venting -- you might like it.

[@livingforsail]

Interesting point… I’ll check this out. Thank you! 🙏

[@barendgarvelink]

Wise choice to cut your losses early on that fibreglass mistake.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, I think so too. It wasn’t too bad to fix. Otherwise it would always be on my mind… cheers! 👍🙌

[@silvanocometta9760]

My suggestion is to keep one wet room for the toilet, the other wet room for a separate shower and wet suit storage.

[@livingforsail]

Thank you. That’s another interesting approach. The aft head has a separate standing shower and I don’t plan to reinstall a shower head in the forward head. I dislike the idea of drenching all of the cabinetry in the forward head. So maybe, toilet forward and showers aft. 🤣

[@nutsandbolts432]

Pulling the glass back up was probably a smart move.

[@livingforsail]

Hopefully it was a good lesson. I should hang up the old scrap in the shed as a reminder…

[@extremelydave]

I am thinking one of the best things you could do is to hire the 7 dwarves or another bunch of workers to help you will all the work you have set yourself up for with this boat (Antidote or Albatross...) Sending good Karma your way.....

[@livingforsail]

Thanks Dave. I did try that. The only ones available were dopey, sleepy, and grumpy and I think there’s better ways to use the budget… if there is a dwarf named “speedy” he’s not in the workers union apparently 🤷‍♂️

[@Paul_C]

Let's call it, I can understand a composting toilet on land. It is a nice way to use less, very expensive today, soil enhancers. Just, very few places on a boat to grow produce. The second thing, fluids still are still a waste collected in the blackwater tank, or simply pumped overboard. Do not take anything on this subject serious when it comes from me, on a 470 there's little need for a head...😅

[@jonwrcongo]

Ha, to that last confession.

[@livingforsail]

I will probably not be growing my own produce. Haha. Thanks for the feedback!

[@markbuskens6070]

I would put the holding tank back in just in case you hate the composting head.I don’t think you’ll like them.

[@livingforsail]

Interesting idea… I will definitely not dispose of the tank unless I’m POSITIVE I’m not using it again. I could re install and close the thru hulls so it would not be too bad to re-commission 🤔

[@danknox9986]

I’m not a fan of composting heads. I would rather have a big shower than two heads. But that’s just me.

[@alanmcn17]

I think he made the right choice. That would have not left your brain lol.

[@livingforsail]

🤣🤣Yeah, it seems you’ve already figured me out. 👍

[@badad0166]

Composting toilets smell like manure, but holding tanks smell like shit. So, a little harder to control the smell, but a more tolerable smell to tolerate.

[@livingforsail]

Haha. Thanks for the very relatable examples. 🤣🙌

[@hanfordcreek5309]

“Oh Sylvia, love your new handbag, whose is it?” “Oh, it’s Gucci, made from used peel ply!” "……I’d have left it the ostensibly contaminated glass.

[@livingforsail]

🤣🤣🤣 there will be a limited release of custom hand bags. Gentlemen, get your orders in for your significant others before they’re all sold out. 🙌

[@hanfordcreek5309]

As for the head, the previous owner of my Cape Dory removed the head, dismissing them out-of-hand, saying that they always smelled. I did some research and concluded that having an odor-free head was just adhering to a few fundamentals. 1. Use potable water to flush, especially if you have an RO system. Seawater is loaded with salts and minerals that precipitate out, when combined with urine which then clogs plumbing. There are also a lot of unwanted biologics in seawater which will make a much stinkier brew. 2. Make sure the holding tank is vented, I run a 1" sanitation-grade hose through a charcoal canister and then overboard, just below the sheer. Put a screen on the outlet so critters stay out. You want to encourage aerobic bacteria instead of smelly anaerobic bacteria. 3. Hard plumb as much of the system with PVC pipe and, if hose is needed, buy the good stuff ($$$). If the first rule is followed, it should not need to be replaced for some time. I am going on my 4th year with zero odor. Although marine heads can be a little bit daunting to the uninitiated, they are more familiar than "composting" heads. Also, composting heads are tall, if room is a problem.

[@livingforsail]

@@hanfordcreek5309 I have also heard about the complications with urine and sea water mixing so flushing with fresh water is a smart idea provided the water supply is up to the task. Thanks for the idea.

[@tvelocidad]

Love what you're doing, and I'm enjoying watching... but I do have to say, I think at this rate you'll be done in about 10 years.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks.! In 10 years I’ll be 53… Perfect! 🤣🙌

[@brandoneaton7248]

Your savage that epoxy would have been fine

[@livingforsail]

Live and learn I guess. 👍

[@tomandalbert]

Well if you don't have time to do it right the first time...

[@GloryDays_RandR]

I get your concern, but you pulled the glass up, and didn't wipe off the epoxy, and then allowed it to cure. If you didn't grind ALL of that residual epoxy off, don't you still have the same issue of epoxy applied to an un-clean substrate? You now applied a layer of glass on top of a properly prepared layer of epoxy, that was improperly applied to the surface below. I don't really see how it is different.

[@livingforsail]

After it cured I cleaned it with some soap and water to remove any blush and then yes, ground it back down and cleaned properly. 👍

[@GloryDays_RandR]

OK, in the video you just said you cleaned it and then abraded it. You didn’t say you took it back down to the original surface.

[@shaggyduder]

Composting toilet are disgusting, even if you keep the head door closed, you'll smell it, it also depends on your diet, certain diets smell worse than others.

[@livingforsail]

I’m hearing a no vote here. Thanks for the feedback. I still haven’t made up my mind yet… 🙏👍🙌

[@shaggyduder]

@@livingforsail build a poop deck.

[@Anne6621]

1 bath and create more comfortable living space , turn that head into a useful space , say a pantry/washing machine or what ever type of space , i would just make the boat for 2 people , a mistake corrected is a time and money saver in the future , and you are not the type to let a mistake slide by

[@livingforsail]

That’s an interesting idea that I hadn’t really considered… I’ve always heard that guests are rare so a dedicated second head may be unnecessary… 🤔 Thanks for the feedback 🙌