Why "Grappler Jumps" are so Important

[@alexhunter2128]

Hey, I play guitar in Horse Lung. Cool to hear our song in this video! Thanks!

[@TheoryFighter]

Woahhhh, I absolutely love your music !

[@TurtleRocker12]

Do you guys tour? I'd definitely see a band called horse lung

[@mcpartridgeboy]

horse bastard are better than you guys

[@froberg6]

plz tour

[@alexhunter2128]

@@mcpartridgeboy you’re not wrong about that

[@firetarrasque4667]

"Anything can be effective if you've conditioned the opponent enough." That was the perfect moment to play "Yo, did he just walk? up? slowly? And down smash?"

[@Eaode]

goddamn that's a missed opportunity

[@firetarrasque4667]

@@Eaode I literally paused and watched the clip

[@toe_sucker_4165]

It was a mixup.

[@augustgreig9420]

LOL I rember the first time I saw an empty jump SPD in the arcade SF2 as a kid. It blew my fucking mind. I was like, "That's brilliant". Empty jump low had a similar effect, but not nearly as impressive, as it's so hard to get in with Gief, especially in those older games. Edit: Oh, and you should check out one of Justin Wong's most recent videos where he plays Gief in Alpha 2. It is literally nothing but grappler jumps lol. His first opponent had to switch to Akuma for his DP because he was eating so many jumping fierces. And just about the time he finally focused on anti-airing them with Sakura, Justin started changing buttons, changing the distances he would jump in, and just empty jumping and punishing. It is a hilarious to watch.

[@keithsimpson2685]

Try King of fighters. Being able to hop into this stuff with their grapplers who can super cancel grapples is really fun.

[@gamecentergarou6725]

I thought Wong hated Gief lmao. I guess he was just being facetious

[@t4d0W]

@@keithsimpson2685 98 Daimon is one of the best 'balanced' KOF pure grappler archetypes. Though Iori along with his versatile shoto like kit and just happens to have a cmd grab atk like scum gale creates even more mixup and damage potential overall. There are also 'fun' grappler types like Hinako from 02 UM and Vice who in some games has the explosive ability to put pressure and bring you to the corner.

[@Gramasz]

Empty jump low is very rectable in a non airdasher fighting game.

[@augustgreig9420]

@@Gramasz First of all, it's not easily reactable[sic] in 2D fighters without air dash. And second of all, it certainly wasn't easily reactable 30 years ago when people used to actually get salty if you swept them over and over again because they didn't know how to block low. There were no instructions, even for core mechanics. But for tricky shit like this, it took getting hit by it several times to even begin to be able to defend against it consistently, especially without a DP, and even if other people had warned you about it ahead of time. It was a legit tactic then, and is a legit tactic now. Maybe less so in say SFV, but even in older games, at high level, empty jump>low still works. I know I've hit pros with it numerous times, and I've seen pros hit each other with it in SFV.

[@mitlaufer4798]

I get hit by snake egde because I expect the taunt jet upper. makes sense

[@UltimateBallaPOM]

🤣🤣

[@blackheavymetalman]

I get hit by them because my reaction is so slow even bullet time couldnt save me

[@justsignmeup911]

Love that doom metal in the background.

[@Azzabajam]

I think thats the main reason i subbed

[@b7fLuid]

dude, love your content. Analysis and cadence is spot on.

[@ThirtyfourEC]

I've been looking for the name of this tech forever. Well done

[@floofzykitty5072]

It's also somewhat related to tomahawk jumps

[@Ramsey276one]

0:43 in a 2-second nutshell

[@kibakong8077]

I thought it was called a empty jump

[@AaronRotenberg]

@@kibakong8077 An empty jump is any jump where you don't press any buttons. Using the definition from this video, a grappler jump is a special case of empty jump.

[@kibakong8077]

@@AaronRotenberg that's super specific lolol good looking out

[@Golcarjack]

Guile can mostly shut down those jumps with anti air back sobat (beats/trades with far jump ins, if they do empty jump spd he moves back to be out of range). You also want to use cr mk instead of sweep anti air, because sweep is nearly impossible to safely space vs gief j hp/hk. Gief can beat anti air lows anyway with mk knee drop. And regarding the forced block into spd, guile can just take the hit while crouching, and then flash kick the spd, since it's not a combo.

[@djfuvideo2]

You’re famous now jack

[@JPCWhutwhut]

listen to jack

[@Larsgman]

Never thought I'd see a concept so eloquently described in this level of detail and subtle nuances. It's like I already knew what conditioning was but i wasnt expecting all this condensed into 8 minutes.

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

The way the font on your end logo is set out, I thought for a second it said "THE DRY FIGHTER!"

[@logandunlap9156]

the dry fighter needs some lotion

[@genejas]

paint: drank glue: sniffed up-forward: held _oh yeah, it's grappler time_

[@TinkXIII]

Between the background music, great information, and that sick-ass logo (that I somehow didn't notice before the end of your video), you've certainly earned this sub.

[@robertbailey4271]

This was an epic representation of unbridled analysis bro! Truly a masterpiece! Your understanding of fighting game mechanics on a whole is damn near god-like legendary! Well done!

[@captainphoton1693]

In smash it's called a tomahawk. You jump forward in a way that let you hit the opponent. But you just land. The goal is to make them shield and then grab them. That's the most common use. But you can also mix it up by trying to shield break them (rare and only for few character) or by guessing they will not shield and try to punish a grab, so either you shield or hit them with a fast move.

[@N12015]

BUT if they predict the grab they can attack you with a combo starter (which are usually down tilts, which are the equivalent to lows), and if you do an aerial they can spotdodge them and punish the endlag. Is the exact same Idea and scenario, but more broadly applied because grabs are generally more rewarding than in regular fighting games.

[@naseemhamed3488]

Grappler = Conditioner

[@t4d0W]

KOF is a lil more fluid with this concept because of their universal jump/hop system along with the run to cover more of the screen. So the spacing is more of a frentic exercise along with accounting for different chars having minute differences in hop/jump ranges and possibly having very good air buttons as well or the CD attack. Also some KOF chars aren't 'pure' grapplers but have a reliable kit with a great grapple move to throw into the mix. Though historically Daimon from 97/98 offered one of the strongest balance of a lumbering pure grappler type who has ways of getting in as well with keeping space with gdlk buttons.

[@tavrincallas3218]

Coming from Smash (initially) it was a pleasant surprise when I discovered that tomahawk grabs are a thing in traditional FGs as well lol

[@dotChrollo]

BROOO been an all around FG player for about a year now, started as a smash player maybe 3 years ago. I still have to correct myself when playing anything that isn't smash. Empty jumps are tomahawks, mirror matches are dittos, etc.

[@sirchris6047]

Imagine calling smash bros a fighting game

[@tavrincallas3218]

@@dotChrollo same! :D

[@dotChrollo]

@@sirchris6047 imagine caring

[@swank8508]

@@sirchris6047 pretty much every part of neutral and footsies has an analog in melee, idk why people think its not a fighting game

[@RupertFoulmouth]

Amazing the level of thought and planning that goes in to high level play.

[@pandavelli8176]

I got really into fighting games awhile back, but I couldn’t play as grappler characters and I didn’t understand how to use them or why I lost to them online. Wish I would’ve found your channel then!

[@bara-9136]

Been thinking about this without a name or way to really explain this for some days, thank you

[@Boyzby]

This is the first time I've ever heard the term. I'm relatively new to fighting games, so maybe that's why I've always heard it referred to as "empty jump", which I think is much more descriptive and straightfoward.

[@TheoryFighter]

The term Grappler jump is more about intent than form if that makes sense. So even though it sits inside the neutral jump definition it's more specific

[@Roge9]

Good video, I rarely play grapplers but when I did I always liked landing those command grabs and seeing their HP bar vanish lol

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Lmao

[@sanjivinsmoke2719]

Bruhh come to the geif side young padawan

[@namillerable]

I've never thought about this before. Great content here. My mind is really busy now thinking about how to use this and practice this.

[@mokaza40]

I love theory crafting and I love fighters. You my battle brother, my dude.

[@MrSaturnMusic]

I had never heard of this tech! Thank you for adding something new to my arsenal :3 Excellent video as always

[@halodragonmaster]

The first 9 seconds made me subscribe. Firstly for the commentary. Secondly because there's this tiny person with a sword going head to head against a giant grappler guy and I'm laughing my ass off.

[@rookbranwen8047]

Does this remind anyone else of the High-score Girl anime/manga?

[@sassyflygonthesecond4993]

yup

[@gamecentergarou6725]

That final episode of HSG is this video's analysis put into practice. If you check the Shoryuken Wiki's frame data for Zangief, you'll see why Oono's Zangief seemed to plot armor his way past that Mexican Uppercut from Guile. As Yaguchi explains in hindsight, he was being conditioned into throwing out that crouching fierce, so in the moment of truth, Oono deliberately whiffs her dropkick for the shrunken hitboxes and closed out the match.

[@djhero0071]

Would you say it’s worth playing as an anime alone?

[@ItsDeebs]

Yep. I believe this video appeared on my KZbin home page because after watching the series I watched several review videos on YT to see what other people thought of the series.

[@Vespyr_]

Uhm no. The high score girl anime Manga reminds me of this concept. Anyone who isn't a Zoomer has known this shit for years.

[@nivyan]

I'd like to have a 100% grappler one day - by that I mean all their special moves are grapples and/or extensions of them. I know of King from Tekken exists, but that's not good enough: I want a shoto to be freaking scared of a jump-in that has the potential to grapple them no matter what they do: As long as the grappler predicts it. Also why have I never found a grab that is built to counteract normals in the air and counter-grapple those specifically? A grappler that almost entirely relies on conditioning and grapple-mixups would be a wonder to play and watch - they'd have glaring weaknesses and *very* powerful mixups - imagine a grappler who has slow grapples they can use on their opponent' wakeup to keep them in a vortex. Something like, low-mid-air on wakeup is the mixup, low and mid can be jumped (but low can be safe, resetting into neutral if failed), air and mids whiff lows - giving a free combo, and mids grab catches backdashes/sidesteps/whatever ingame universal escape option there is in place. These aren't set in stone, but something like that would be incredible: They'd be the pinnacle of modern fighting games - because such an archetype would be completely useless in Arcades: The amount of tech required would be too much, but very viable with global social media: They'd be the pinnacle of modern fighting game tech - a symbol of how far the fighting game community has come over the last 30+ years.

[@nuclearsynapse5319]

Bullet from Blazblue is all command grabs and hitgrabs excepting a combo ender super and an anti-zoner fireball. She's also fast af and has a momentum mechanic but that's just blazblue things

[@nivyan]

@@nuclearsynapse5319 Ty, I'll check her out 😁

[@nuclearsynapse5319]

@@nivyan there's also tager in the same game. He's a big body grappler but if they gave him literal magnet hands. He's got command grabs that can pull you in from full screen if you're not careful and grabs that give him 30 frames of full invuln. Blazblue overall is a hell of a game it sounds wack because it is, but it's surprisingly fair.

[@86loslos]

Sooo I’ve been playing tekken7 for a few months now. Getting better at it! My phone recommended this video! And I’m thankful for it! Nice video

[@LeHeartly]

One of my favorite fighting game memories was facing Kazunoko in my SFV pools last year in an Ibuki mirror, and I had a good enough idea of his mental stack that I hit him with a walk up DP, lol. I lost that set but it was a very fun mental back and forth we had, kind of like a conversation without words.

[@andrewvu8737]

Great song selection!! Love Horse Lung

[@user-wy1et9dk9w]

I had to laugh at myself when you brought up the dolphin dive I get caught by that way too much and every time I'm like how tf did I not react to that lmao

[@Akay4444444444444444]

I think this is the first time I've seen more than just small clips of granblue fantasy versus Now I kinda wanna get into it

[@chrismanuel9768]

It's so fucking fun, and it's a nice change up. Medieval Fantasy 2D fighter? Knights and shit. I love it.

[@bellyjam2426]

You have a very relaxing voice, great video as usual.

[@X3_lelouch1970]

You feel like the new core a gaming, great videos.

[@pfunk6945]

Liked the lecture. LOVED the guitar in the background

[@Wo0zy23]

Great video, and your taste in music is impeccable.

[@ReCharredSigh]

Good vid on this tech. I personally wouldn't use the term grappler jump as it's not tech that's exclusive to grapplers (but if it's already a caught-on term, it doesn't really matter to me). Reason being, I used to watch a lot of super turbo, and it was common for any character who wanted to get in against a zoner to use this tech, even if it wasn't a grappler and had a projectile himself (ie Ryu vs Guile). Maybe something like "FM jump" (FM = far mixup) would work better, but other ppl would have to accept it en masse.

[@youknowwho257]

People don't have to accept, if it's true and makes 100% sense people just need to realize that and start to use the correct name. And yeah... the "grappler jump" is 100% NOT the right one here.

[@Turshin]

This was "fixed" in MVC2. Guile's flashkick comes out much faster so you have a larger window knock Zangief's ass back. Or you can just choose Sagat. And just keep your grappler at bay with high and low tiger punches, or heavy kicks which can be used as an AA but also has a ton of horizontal striking distance. In CvS2 his HK reaches almost to half screen. Follow it up with a quick tiger shot and you can position Zangief's ass right back where he started.

[@Juiceair77]

Teaches a Master Class with every video.

[@slightlytwistedagain]

You've pretty much described the neutral mind game triangle of fighting games here (rushdown beats whiff punishment, whiff punishment beats keepout, keepout beats rushdown).

[@dimex3362]

I dont agree with the video maker on many of the more opinionated points, but the video itself is well made and concise. Back in the day we just called this an emptyjump to bait the AA. Mixups that are “too strong” dont mess a game up. They make you focus on neutral ans not play like an idiot since a mistake can make you lose the round, not like in newschool where you can eat 15 combos and still have half health.

[@Flafex]

I'm learning so much with this channel. Thank you (:

[@sanjivinsmoke2719]

As a zangeif main yep jumping is a fundamentally necessary for him.. I get destroyed for it but sometimes with good timing I get a good mixup

[@Omicron9999]

Now you see, what I thought a Grappler Jump was is that little hop everyone does when they're first learning how to input 360 degree throw moves.

[@Atlas_FGC]

4:07 It depends, but with practice you can train yourself for specific animations, hence where the 16 frames comes from. Without training for specific animations a person's reaction time to something is probably closer to 20 frames at best. Also, dusts hit at every level because: low levels can't block random overheads, mid levels can't block random overheads half of the time, and the idea of using a slow, extremely telegraphed move in high level play is mainly from how poor of an idea it is to try in the first place-- as in few people are actually considering them even happening, which can hurt your reaction time to it. In some cases it could be a spacing thing, a frame trap, or something more to the move itself (looking at Testament and the FRC mixup on it).

[@lauracxzv3871]

Sounds legit

[@NOLAFrog112]

Great theory crafting, I love it. Subbed

[@warpath6666]

When going up against the AI in SF2, they have access to any of the "charge" moves in an instant. And Zan-grief can grab you from halfway across the screen ... it's great fun LOL!!! Especially the Turbo Edition on the Arcade1up machine 😄🤣😄🤣

[@random_gamer_guy82]

Never heard of granblue seriously, is it any good? The design looks amazing.

[@pohatunuva3771]

It's very simple but I've enjoyed my 60+ hours with it. The design and atmosphere of granblue fantasy is top-notch, I'm honestly tempted to recommend looking at the art books and albums rather than play the browser game or Granblue Versus. Great setting, great characters, great stories... not-so-great monetization.

[@chrismanuel9768]

It's real nice

[@arterial]

Nice channel man. Look forward to playing you on fc, I've seen you lurking there...

[@TheoryFighter]

👀

[@IGP510]

love your vids and your musical selection!

[@OccuredJakub12]

just recently discovered this tech myself!

[@Wiziliz]

Granblue sounds pretty cool.

[@awesomaaa]

When i jump as a grappler im actually just dont the full circle

[@JerryCricketGaming]

I'm so glad I found your channel!

[@karlsylvain]

very interesting!!as a fighting game player this is golden!

[@amirjubran1845]

Great content, highly underrated channel.

[@gjergji15]

Wish sfv would have high jumps just to mix the meta a tiny bit. Great video as always.

[@taylorbee4010]

Shimmy was ALWAYS a thing Also def in 3s

[@meangreen323]

Guile vs. gief is crazy match-up. If you don't master the tick grabs with gief, you are done for. good thing about super turbo was the gief bitchslap! forward , down, and forward with punch buttons. if you are not spd grabbing, at least you are slapping guile with that move

[@Wayne_C_Kelly_II]

I Was Considering Clark, From SNK. A Bit Of A Risk, But He Can Jump In And Throw, Counter Throws By Standing Near, Plus Air Throw. Thank You, For Video.

[@Ash__Adler]

Good video, but isn't this just the standard way of working jump-ins into rushdown in general? Why specifically "grappler jump"? Also, this is why I (as a defense/footsies-oriented player) have always been a big fan of the varied jumps/hops in SNK games and CvS. It gives so much more depth to the process of either getting in or keeping someone out.

[@Duothimir]

Probably because grapplers rely on it harder than any other archetype.

[@Ash__Adler]

Can you back that up with an actual explanation?

[@Duothimir]

@@Ash__Adler Grapplers are big, slow, heavily telegraphed, and don't often have spammable projectiles to fight from a distance or throw off their opponent's rhythm, and they can't just keep throwing out attacks hoping something will connect because their big, slow, heavily telegraphed attacks are easy to punish if used carelessly.

[@Ash__Adler]

@@Duothimir Grapplers don't have to be big or slow (Clark or Vice in KOF, Fuerte in SF4, or most of the cast in Darkstalkers). Lacking projectiles can be said about plenty of non-grappler characters. Every non-braindead character has high-reward moves that will get punished easily if used carelessly. I'd argue the whole idea of "grappler" as a firm archetype doesn't hold up, but that's too long a discussion for a KZbin comment 🤷‍♂️

[@saevus2686]

Balrog M.Bison is real trippy

[@youknowwho257]

Actually, is not. Capcom in USA sucks to cut the history, they fear that Mike Tyson could make theyr lives miserable in court so they decided to change the fighters name. The final boss true name = VEGA The boxer true name = M. Bison (the name that caused all this crap...) The spanish true name = Balrog They just swaped the names around so their asses whould be safe in USA.

[@Micha-Hil]

0:53 *Hi Score Girl flashbacks*

[@mmdkotetsuth8728]

Every Sf fans must watch anime call "Hi-score girl"

[@georgegkoumas5026]

well thanks for the suggestion, always loved to see SF references but this... is a step forward

[@FrederickStepanis]

This is very interesting. Love your channel

[@cocciclaque9084]

In smash there's another name for that, it's called the Tomahawk : your opponent is shielding or zoning so you just on them to bait out an unsafe option, or you land then grab since they expected having frame afvantage because you hit them

[@defnotnaruto222]

It's just like shielding but instead of losing to grab, you win the interaction if they use any laggy option

[@vg4917]

dude you have the best taste in music

[@Marzimus]

Another excellent video! ✊

[@ReMeDy_TV]

@ 0:01 Wait, whoa. Why is there a gremlin creature on my screen!?

[@bossrushed3256]

Secret TheoryFighter video?

[@Bolomoto]

I appreciate the grappler love

[@KewlAlexYT]

Sometimes you just gotta air back dash fireball a grappler to put them in their place

[@pragmat1k]

Great discussion!

[@SpeedDemonRX]

I give it up to esports. This dynamic of game plan on the fly is what happens in sports. Read and react can be used against you. Mind games are definitely a big part of sports

[@dragonmageddon8459]

I'm glad I subscribed to this channel

[@Artersa]

Fuck yeah, my kind of specific content.

[@ronindebeatrice]

I'm nowhere near good enough at fighting games to use any knowledge presented on this channel

[@rafaelcastor2089]

Keep studying, keep playing and you'll get there.

[@samyboi420]

Come back to these videos ina few months for fun to see how much better you understand them it could be a good way to gauge your improvement

[@booushcat8318]

Whenever i try to screwdriver with Zangief in sf5 ,his arms go right through other character.

[@kencur9690]

Zangief: big hairy muscled beast, who jumps like a flighty teenaged ballerina in love.

[@armorbearer9702]

I wish I knew this when I was playing Marvel vs Streetfighter.

[@alexnas9634]

nothing feels better then landing dash 720

[@cashwad5713]

Can you make a video on comeback mechanics like v trigger?

[@mueezadam8438]

Wow... that was exhilarating!

[@ragnarokhead19000]

Great video as always!

[@yamazaky96]

make a video about the system of Samurai Shodown 7 (2019)

[@cyclstev]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't back stand forward and forward stand forward negate all of this from Guile?

[@johnkuhn4263]

good vid. great philosophy. Call Kierkegaard. Peace

[@ThevenimX]

It becomes game theory at that point. What will they do and what do i do about that

[@feidyrudd2518]

This is a big part of why melee is so hard at top level. Basically every character can do this

[@chrisskull7882]

This is why you play sagat lol I'm a sagat main and hes punishable but his attacks can dizzy really easy, and his ults are really easy to combo into and punish your enemy if they block it

[@TheLongWind]

Watch Cigar Bob, Megaman-X and Vodka G to see what a Zangief player can do when in the hands of masters. They have motivated me to pick up Gief and there is no going back, I love it.

[@luanibaal8007]

i wish all grapplers an unpleasant evening

[@voiceofreason2674]

Every Christmas I play a lot of SNES SF on my 8bitdo wireless controllers with my big brother and all he do is spam e Honda. Ima learn how to pile drive with Zangief and it’s on

[@chickrepelant]

I'm just sad i didn't find this channel sooner

[@zenheretic]

great video, but i disagree with human reaction time being 16 frames, like you said. if it really were 16 frames, things like hakumen 6B in BBCF and johnny TK mist finer in strive would not be nearly as threatening as they are, since not many people are reacting to that

[@madchillyred]

Man I wish you make a grappler video about incineroar smash Brothers

[@KrushKrills]

Is that Sleep playing in the background?

[@DanielSternCode]

3:33 M.Bison? Isn't that Balrog?

[@N12015]

I know that technique as the tomahawk. Is basically a 50-50 with 2 possible answers for each side, where you either get a juicy grab, get punished for doing an empty jump instead of an aerial, connect an aerial for some respectable damage or your opponent whiff punish the endlag/landing lag of your aerial. Fighting games in general are an interesting mix of coordination and mental. If I had to guess the name comes from T. Hawk, a street fighter grappler.

[@DevFromParaplegiance]

Funny that this video doesnt mention MK11 bc as much as i love the game.....one thing that really really sucks esp. due to the “strike throw” meta of the game, is that jump-ins are dumb good. Theyre ostensibly the #1 instance of plus frames in the game, & anti-airs seem to be purposefully under-prioritized, so ppl will literally just jump-in stagger & jump-in grab all day & you gotta hold that/guess correctly. Especially sucks bc grabs are highs in MK11 so we all know to neutral duck em maybe punish with a D2 KB launch, but the only problem there is that since jump punches are so plus, anything they do will jail after that, including D2s that are also highs. So if you try to stand block the overhead jump punch & read theyre gonna grab they can just mash uppercut instead. Basically its dumb easy for them jump in & mash 2 and therefore condition me into eating jump-in grabs, while i can barely anti-air em & my only viable option is to flawless block the jump attack (easier said than done when ppl play on wifi in 80+ ping)