Why Hayao Miyazaki Hates the Lord of the Rings

In this video we explore Hayao Miyazaki's views on the Lord of the Rings and J. R. R. Tolkien, as well as the similarities between their respective works!
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[@dartagnananderle2707]

Between his feelings on LOTR, modern anime, and his own son, I'm beginning to wonder if Miyazaki likes anything.

[@Game_Hero]

"and his own son", ouch

[@surfingpenguin2279]

Yea the more i learn about Miyazaki the more he seems beta as fuck

[@victor_2216]

He sounds like someone who doesn't believe in absolute truth, hypocritical of because he believes his own perspective, and upset because America beat Japan because they wouldn't surrender.

[@Thundernugget]

He's a grumpy old man

[@ektran4205]

HAYAO is the most famous absentee parent

[@Giggles_iJest]

......bro did Miyasaki even *read* LOTR?

[@judeironheart7252]

you know, i didnt have anything against this guy, but now I do. One, because LOTR is something beautiful beyond culture or race, and second, because he essentially called me an idiot. :/ way to fall from grace, kill your heroes

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

I always thought Miyazaki was kind of a pretentious prick.

[@gamingchinchilla7323]

@@thelettucebarrel7784 well, he was a professor after all, and he was very protective of the english language as well as the art of story telling. Of course he was strict on all things fiction. I'm sure you're well aware of the colorful things he had to say about Disney, especially of their depiction of dwarves in Snow White :B

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

@@gamingchinchilla7323No, I said Miyazaki, not Tolkien. Unless Miyazaki also did those things then my bad.

[@gamingchinchilla7323]

@@thelettucebarrel7784 I might've misread you myself. So I should say "my bad" as well. Sometimes certain words and names melt together like that. I'm getting old, lol. still, I was merely making it a point of interest more than targeting your comment.

[@isaaccabea]

What is the shortest list in the world? The list of things Miyazaki likes

[@f.b.l.9813]

himself

[@sb12083]

Planes and little girls

[@theguy4223]

Akira Kurosawa

[@drearmouse9510]

​@@sb12083 LOL! God dammit.. that one got me. xD

[@NeostormXLMAX]

@@sb12083 uooohhhhh

[@culturemanoftheages]

Tolkien: Loves son. Miyazaki: Thinks son is a disappointment despite trying to follow in his footsteps. Maybe Miyazaki is just a cranky ass.

[@ElectroPotato]

Miyazaki is just an asian dad.

[@70n24]

Son must follow son's own steps, not his father's

[@golDroger88]

And now look at Tolkien's grandchildren...

[@darthvadeth6290]

Toeken fanboys going wild in the comments with the ad hominem attacks just because somebody dares to not like LoTR, lmao

[@GustavoSilva-ny8jc]

Regular asian parent be like: "You're a FAILURE"

[@jstrandquist]

I think Miyazaki is one of those authors who speaks better through his work than outside of it. In interviews, he's incredibly curmudgeonly, cynical, and almost a nihilist. Yet he produces works that are none of those things-they're full of genuine hope for humanity in the face of long odds, which is precisely what Tolkien put into his works. I think it's okay for artists to be complex and imperfect. We can love Miyazaki's works and not his personality. I tend to find myself in agreement with much of Tolkien's philosophy, but it's also okay for someone to love the world he created and not his own views. Good art pushes past the flaws of its creators.

[@sayerglasgow115]

I definitely feel that Miazaki's work shows a very different side of him than the one he shows in interviews. I feel perhaps that being cynical and bitter is his knee-jerk response, but when given more time to reflect and create something he really believes in, the person shown is very different.

[@turkeygod6665]

@@sayerglasgow115 Wow, for some reason to me at 2 am thats a very beautiful way of looking at it. I'm hoping you're right, and Miyazaki's art reflects his actual views more than his interviews.

[@EmilReiko]

Perhaps his art is his escape from himself

[@lProN00bl]

Not much different than Tolkien ironically

[@r2d2rxr]

To be honest I like his grumpy personality. It reminds me of older folks in my life that are very critical of things, I think it’s good to have that balance too in a way

[@imahoare4742]

Miyazaki being a grumpy old boomer who both hates and loves pre WW2 Japan is just his MO. He's a contrarian who never grew out of it.

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Whine and cry harder

[@Zed-fq3lj]

a narrow-minded hack...and a sore loser, nostalgic of imperial Japan (which committed crimes inconceivable even to the nazis!!!)

[@seto_kaiba_]

So-like a Japanese Tolkein then. lol.

[@dylanc9174]

​@@seto_kaiba_ Tolkien had ideals. He was not a contrarian.

[@IbnRushd-mv3fp]

@dylanc9174 wasn't he kinda trad cath?

[@zaxchannel2834]

3:35 The Rambo franchise evolved into action movie fodder, however the first Rambo, that is "First Blood" was very much a statement on PTSD and negative treatment of returning soldiers. I don't see how anybody could watch Stalone's ending monolog at the end of first blood and dismiss Rambo as some murderous action movie

[@IIARROWS]

Yes, I find the chosen example extremely bad. But in reality, the critique to war and war crimes never left the franchise, especially in the latest.

[@tablat1651]

This might be the only smart comment in the entire video.

[@GroundbreakGames]

Thank you.

[@KPW2137]

Also, Hollywood often indeed does glorify the US Military, or shows wars in a very simple, nearly glorified perspective. However, the same Hollywood does produce movies that are very anti-war, not glorifying the US and pretty much being on the other end of the spectrum. It is not that simple.

[@Channel-23s]

Even in the later films it was against conflict and Rambo was nihilistic too

[@ZombieLicorice]

Should be called "Miyazaki does not understand LOTR, because he was traumatized by being born into WW2 Japan". Seriously it sounds like people who try to insert communism/capitalism debates into stories like Robin Hood, completely missing the part of the story that's firmly asserts the righteousness of a "true king"

[@daniellichtenstein7541]

I wouldn't be too surprised if it were Miyazaki's comments that are quoted by agenda driven people to explain why Tolkien is somehow racist. I've heard that a lot lately, and I'm a little tired of it.

[@DimT670]

but why tho? Its fundamentally a political statement at its heart and tolkiens work is heavily influenced by the english royalty and empire. You dont hey to take a whole part of a story and go "it means nothing" it doesnt work that way. And its not like lotr is a storybook fable or smth, tho even then the obsession with monarchy is worth examining

[@Nagrom]

Miyazaki only sees the world through a narrow Japanese lens, he refuses to even attempt to see things from others' perspectives. He seems very ignorant and bitter.

[@ZombieLicorice]

@Nagrom maybe for the best though? While I love the access to the world we have in modern times, I worry that in my lifetime we will lose the cultural differences that make foreign places different. I feel sorry for Miyazaki, but I don't wish he had a different perspective because I think it's his japanese point of view that has given us all his awesome movies

[@Turmaicatan]

Dude. Stop talking. You're trying to find something where there is nothing. Have you read Tolkien's works or just LOTR? There is the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, Morgoth's Ring, Unfinished Tales, The Fall of Gondolin and so on and so forth. Which all cover thousands of years before LOTR. Lord of the Rings is a epic high fantasy story, in which Aragorn is from a long line of Kings, all related to the first King of Numenor, Elrond's brother, Elros. After the fall of Arnor in the North to the Witch-King of Angmar, Aragorn's ancestors became the Dunedain chieftains and Gondor lost its King, by any logic, Aragorn is the heir rightfully but you have to keep in mind, he only became King because of the War of the Ring happening and the Fellowship forming to destroy the Ring. You're also forgetting how the LOTR is about hope, friendship, accepting one day we're all going to die, fighting against darkness and such. There is very little to suggest it is heavily influenced by Empire or Monarchy. It has heavy medieval vibes so Kingdoms are normal for that, it also takes big influences from the Anglo-Saxons, Goths, Finnish, Jewish people, Christianity, Beowulf, The Kalevala, Völsunga saga, Temple of Nodens, Germanic mythology, the First World War which he fought in, moments from his real life and so on. to water it down to " heavily influenced by the english royalty and empire" is a weak statement. His works are hardly political, you're just trying to find a reason to make it so.

[@SchloopieShipoopi]

Even if Miyazaki only watched the movies, I think it was still pretty obvious that LoTR was not glorifying war. Literally everyone except Mordor didn't want to go to war, all the characters had a "why now? why me?" sentiment when facing war, especially quotes like Aragorn's "Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not" and Sam's speech in Osgiliath.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

Who truly does glorify war, tho?

[@sephirothcrescent5768]

Yeah, i highly doubt Hayao Miyazaki even said those things so i think, the guy that is doing the video is lying or was lied to, and made the video based on a lie that supposedly Miyazaki said those things, he would need to interview Hayao Miyazaki himself in order to know the real full on truth.

[@Ark1437]

@@nomickike2165 There's one problem with that, all three movies were being filmed at the same time with each being released about a year a part from one another. The Fellowship of the Ring came out in December 2001, barely 3 months after the event of 9/11 and they had begun filming the trilogy between October 1999 - December 2000. At that point there wasn't much that could be done, plus the 2nd book, The Two Towers was it's name from the moment it was published as a trilogy back in 1954. So... I see no desire to make propoganda, just an unfortunate coincidence that was unavoidable considering the effort that already put into making them, unless they actively changed the title but that would've been strange considering they're adaptations of a beloved work.

[@Ark1437]

@@nomickike2165 Except that the Lord of the Rings book trilogy was already a cultural phenomenon when it released in the 1950's. Over the course of decades it became a springboard for hundreds of fantasy authors to write their own works that were heavily inspired by Tolkein's Middle-Earth, such as; Forgotten Realms, DragonLance, Sword of Shannara, Belgariad, Discworld, Harry Potter, The Dark Tower, etc. The movies did provide an explosion of popularity in the early 2000's but the books had a massive influence long before their inception. I'm a little confused to your reasoning on why you say "why the studio suddenly decided to fund more of them" as the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was funded and filmed together so there was no time between the movies where separate funding was possible outside of editors and shots that were taken between 2001-2003 for last minute edits. Also, there was no further movies made for the Lord of the RIngs until 2011 with The Hobbit trilogy but this was long after the hype for the LOTR movies had died down along with any potential association with 9/11 that you seem to be claiming. Honestly, I think this take is a bit ridiculous considering all of the context provided but if you want to continue believing this then you do you I suppose...

[@Lord_Numpty]

Not to mention the quote by Faramir (in the books by Sam) upon seeing a dead Haradrim. "It was Sam's view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart or what lies or threats had led him on the long March from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace." kzbin.info/www/bejne/hIfTdJiHptGonJosi=NFYxe0I1ggji-jzJ

[@Cole205]

Let's get some Korean and Chinese opinions of Japanese history and ethnic attitudes 😅

[@Gypsygeekfreak17]

And Indonesia and Philippines

[@lizardlord4k]

Miyazaki isn't a very big fan of his own country either, and is very outspoken about it.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Hey don’t leave out the American perspective. Never forget… they touched our boats.

[@Rakotino]

Hahahaha

[@annavafeiadou4420]

exactly

[@itsnotborker456]

Didn't Miyazaki get asked if he had actually seen Indiana Jones, then replied no? He gives off the impression that he is a contrarian for the sake of being one. Tolkien often gave praise to the authors of works he didn't personally enjoy such as Dune.

[@damienasmodeus928]

bruh, criticizing the works, one didn't see or read is really anti-intellectual.

[@tdotitan8855]

​@@damienasmodeus928 yeah lmao that is some i saw a youtube short on a ghibli movie and now i have a valid opinion on it level lol. Really goes to show how a lot of creators do get pretentious. I guess thats just what happens when you devote everything to one thing.

[@renegadedalek5528]

Miyazaki was corrupted by Sauron despite the best efforts of the blue wizards

[@Armored_Ariete]

lmaoooooooooo

[@davidmouser596]

Tolkien unlike Miyazaki actually fought in a war most notably at the battle of the Somme which was hell on earth and a miracle if you managed to survived it. When he wrote Sam's thoughts on the dead enemy soldier it was Tolkien's own thoughts we are reading of the many dead enemy he encountered and killed to live himself. Its easy to be virtuous when someone isn't in your face trying to kill you as the battle fields are full of dead saints. You'll find saints are in short supply in peacetime.

[@themadmallard]

this is probably the biggest rebuke to level against Miyazaki's shallow criticisms. Not because the part about virtue, but because Miyazaki is somewhat classist in his views that the audience is stupid for liking something. Does Miyazaki make such shallow criticism without knowing that Tolkien fought in war? If he did not know, then he made such unsophisticated remarks about a man whom he should be able to share in the trauma of war over, because fighting in a war is only a degree of separation away from being a civilian in a war zone. Or, did he make such remarks and knew that he was a soldier? That would make him a rather.... ugly and unsympathetic person to have laid such a charge at Tolkien's feet about his works.

[@dripstein5068]

perfectly put and its why we need more warrior poets. Weakness in the modern man has feminized them to the max, and they no longer have a grasp on how the real world works

[@Shinshocks555]

@@dripstein5068 What an embarrassing opinion. I hope for your sake you're no older than 18.

[@itsshrimpinabag9544]

@dripstein5068 Hello, fellow John Lowell fan. :)

[@itsshrimpinabag9544]

Wow. Beautifully well-put.

[@oscarstainton]

He didn’t have to call fans who know the books better than he does “idiots” Just as well, Tolkien was very harsh to other writers and creators. Even if he resonated with the themes present in most of Miyazaki, he’d find something to critique.

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Finally someone who sees Tolkien as a flawed and complex person and not get offended on his behalf

[@edwardperkins1225]

At least Tolkien wouldn't give an "oh that's racist", critique.

[@nostalji75]

@@carlosalbuquerque22 pretty hypocritical from someone who clearly got offended on Myazakis behalf. You litterally responded stuff like "Whine harder" and other critism lacking any arguements. This the opposite of constructive critisms. Its more like you know complaining or whining. Ofc Tolkien was flawed like every human. Yet what he created deserves respect. Same goes for Myazakis work and ideas. How one feels about the other might give interesting insight, but doesn't matter really. It doesn't change the fact that we talk of two creative geniusses. And two humans who have their flaws, but I admire both for what they created or in Myazakis case still creates.

[@infrared337]

@@carlosalbuquerque22 Bro you say that while at the same time respond to any criticism comment on Myazaki here as if you got offended.

[@kayzee3595]

But he is right. Fans of tolkien do not posses a good functioning intelligence. 😂😂😂

[@amarug]

I just love how one of the grumpiest campers ever, who literally hates everything including (but not limited to) his own son, blessed us with movies that feature some of the cutest characters, most lovable and beautiful stories, incredible images and prettiest music and truly snatch and take you away to another world. He is like the inverse of some of those horror movie directors who are total sweethearts irl.

[@lucyarque2946]

He’s a total tsundere

[@animeking17]

Maybe you don't really understand a person with a few interviews? lol

[@amarug]

@@animeking17 I am sure I don't, that would be impossible. Still you get some directions and flavours lol

[@Thekeninger]

I think Miyazaki's statements reveal more about himself than about Tolkien's work. I can't understand how one could see Asians in orcs, but when you're fixated on a certain point, you're able to see all sorts of things everywhere. The truth is that The Lord of the Rings is full of subtle Christian motifs: personal evil, the battle of good versus evil, the significant role of hope, temptation as a moral trial, etc. And I believe that this is the main reason for the disdain towards The Lord of the Rings. Miyazaki has repeatedly expressed his disgust for Christian aesthetics.

[@Sir_Adam]

Typical atheist.

[@Padrino_Tommy]

well Japans known a little about christianity in their masses its ok Miyazaki dont see christian references cause he dont knowing about it.

[@Thekeninger]

​@@Padrino_Tommy I'm not talking about Japan, but about Miyazaki. He is not a fool. He knows Western philosophy and he is simply disgusted by the cross. “Torture symbolism Christ is repulsive, I’d go insane having to look at it every day. I am glad to be Buddhist with calming Guanyin...” He sees the cross only as a symbol of torture, not as a sacrifice made out of love.

[@mamsf3]

I agree, he seems very biased. Considering where Tolkien is from and the time he wrote the books one could easily ascertain Sauron and Mordor to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia but I guess that wouldn't be racist so. Also, it makes even more sense if he dislikes Christianity. Japanese have this philosophy where they believe we as humans are capable of anything if we try hard enough, a theme seen in many animes but apparently venerating the most supreme act of selflessness which is self-sacrifice is disgusting. Fact is, like in LOTR, more often than not there is an enemy, and that enemy is people, under the influence of ignorance or misguidance matters not. The LOTR universe is fictional. If you want to see asians in orcs or africans in goblins I guess you are free to do so. So the british are men, the elves must be swedes, the hobbits are swiss and who are the dwarves? The greek? Lol.

[@1eyeddevil929]

Man would hate Eiji Tsuburaya I guess

[@gamingchinchilla7323]

Sam's questioning the moral of the Southron's death really hits home. Tolkien being a veteran of war himself probably saw a lot of death on the field and asked those same questions of every dead man he saw. Foe or friend. edit: fixed - Dead man was not an Easterling but a Southron as mentioned by @bohunkmusic9473

[@fmsyntheses]

The way Boromir dies in the book always struck me as probably being drawn from something Tolkien experienced. Aragorn is just talking to him about what happened, Boromir is leaving some things out, then he asks him something very rote, I think just if he knows where Frodo went. He happens to look away for a second when he asks this, and when he looks back, Boromir is gone.

[@kolbywilliams7234]

Tolkien was at the battle of the Somme, one of the most dangerous and bloodiest battles in WW1. Almost, if not all, of Tolkien’s closest friends died in that war, some of them in that battle. We know for a fact he saw death, even though he never liked talking about it very much.

[@lesath7883]

The orcs launching decapitated heads to Minas Tirith is directly taken from scare tactics from WW1. He lost friends in WW1. And he lost a son during WW2. That loss influences the sense of loss and melancholy permeating through LotR.

[@Watcher_2244]

He was a grunt as I recall in Somme, aka the WW1 Slaughterhouse that lasted for MONTHS, you dont walk away from something like that without affecting you in someway.

[@fmsyntheses]

@@Watcher_2244 He was an officer, but that's no less true.

[@DoctorFail]

Miyazaki sounds like a redditor or a twitter user.

[@aaronlaughter6471]

And like them, they can be right from time to time (the whole anime is a mistake and its context for example)

[@anon2752]

Well, he has apparently said he has "appreciation" for communism as written by Karl Marx. He also is like a modern german who hates their countries past so much they think modern people should still be paying for it.

[@BlackMasterRoshi]

@@aaronlaughter6471 it goes without saying that broken clocks are occasionally "right"

[@alstjrqkr689]

Damn weebs spoil the j a ps so bad

[@aaronlaughter6471]

@@alstjrqkr689 Hey never trust a group who unironically use a word (Otaku, which in japan is a bad thing to be) and use it as a fucking badge of honor.

[@Ranchor489]

Miyazaki having a huge persecution complex against the West, while nothing new, is satisfying to hear people learn about him.

[@Cryogenius333]

Its very strange that Miyazaki would have such a hateboner for lord of the rings and how it "glorifies" war, considering that, while Im fairly positive Miyazaki never took part in any conflicts, only saw the outcome of it, and how his fathers business of making airplanes worked out, Tolkein served in the trenches of one of the two worst wars in all of human history, saw many of his friends and comrades die, and was eternally scarred by the experience. Lord of the Rings was never meant to glorify war, the orcs are representations of good men(or elves) twisted and perverted into caricatures of their once good selves and predisposed towards the hatred and destruction of all things good or peaceful. They are much more the representation of what happens when good men go to war and are twisted by their leaders into weapons, killing machines that abandon all morality. Tolkein hated war, probably more than Miyazaki does, for what it does to good people, for how it inspires such hatred and mistrust, and he had a front row seat for it. I think Miyazaki just needs to not be such a curmudgeonly old coot tbh. I mean Tolkein was too, he notoriously hated anything that infantilized fantasy or myth. But Miyazaki is just a grumpy old man.

[@Psychodegu]

Miyazaki, every time I watch a documentary or learn of his world views or learn if his family life; I find that he makes wholesome works of art that champion nature and life, but then fails in any way to live out personally.

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

Hypocrisy and self-righteousness often go hand-in-hand.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

@@boeloevanboeloefontein Unlike having an idea and carrying it out.

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

@@Fridaey13txhOktober Miyazaki certainly seems to be living proof of that.

[@cjr-en4wr]

because he called out a clearly racist text??

[@reddevilsunited_2060]

​@@cjr-en4wr racist text ?

[@otticeunited9627]

When you look at the geography of the Silmarillion, the North-West = Good vs. South-East=Evil thing starts falling apart anyways. Melkor had his fortress Angband in the north.Thus, Evil naturally came from the north for centuries of the first age. Cuiviénen, the awakening place of the Elves, was very far in the east.

[@metakarukenshi]

gotta keep in mind thats extended lore, I doubt Miyazaki read the books. he watched the films and didnt like it. cause the films are just Men of the west good, East bad if you dont pay attention

[@green_of_grey]

@@metakarukenshiDoes Miyazaki know that "East in Arda" does not mean, east side of the world (according to modern conventions) as it currently is? I find it hilarious that you guys are trying to solve "the problem" by saying "Evil naturally came from the north" as if Angband is not east of Aman. So, icelanders are the source of evil now then lmao? This is kinda stupid.

[@doublejacketjimmy391]

@@metakarukenshi Well its his perspective that he presents as a fact which is a problem.

[@kolbywilliams7234]

Not only that, but Sauron sets up within Dol Guldur, which is smack in the middle of Middle Earth during the Hobbit. The Easterlings and Haradrim are either manipulated or enslaved. Tolkien did not make villains out of them, but they are antagonists. It’s sophisticated and nuanced storytelling. Miyazaki isn’t really known for that.

[@hamsolo5320]

​@@doublejacketjimmy391He didn't present it as fact, it's his opinion and things have nuance and perspective.

[@wearewalkers142]

Miyazaki: "makes movies about life" also Miyazaki: "hates everything in life" (this is not to be taken seriously, writing this for the brainless)

[@doraemon61377]

He is probably the Steve jobs kind of guy. Very perfectionist, a tyrant and the “I am the smartest one in the room”

[@1ycan-eu9ji]

@@doraemon61377 he's not really a tyrant but he's a traditional leftist, you can tell because of his strong views.

[@doraemon61377]

@@1ycan-eu9ji yeah but you don’t need to impose your views on others

[@darthvadeth6290]

Toeken fanboys going wild in the comments with the ad hominem attacks just because somebody dares to not like LoTR, lmao

[@FelipeJaquez]

​​@@darthvadeth6290 Miyazaki fans still reeling from the fact Howls Moving Castle lost to Wallace and Gromit in the 2005 Oscars I see.

[@meneither3834]

Felt like pointing out something possibly wrong with this Miyazaki quote : "If you read the original work, you'll understand, but in reality, the ones who were being killed are Asians and Africans." Let's say that we do want to make that link to real life. Tolkien was a war veteran, a lieutenant of the British empire, and he fought one foe : The germans, in World War 1. So really it would be germans here. But anyway, even though I've seen other people point out that orcs may be a reference to the mongols/turkicc people. I don't think Tolkien was really going for real world comparison with the armies of Sauron.

[@belnonaodh1520]

I'm pretty sure Tolkein himself refuted any analogy to the Second World War, or any real life analogy at all, decades ago, which adds to your point even more.

[@meneither3834]

@@belnonaodh1520 He fought in the first WW not the second. But anyway yes I agree, the conflict Tolkien wrote is more inspired from Genesis than any real world event.

[@user-lk4ge3ns2g]

it's complicated. short answer: yes, armies of sauron carry a lot of eastern cultural flavor with all of that naming and battle elephants and all, but miyazaki reasoning may be way off

[@opticalraven1935]

He wasn't. Nobe of his works is a reflection of this world. If people are drawing parallels where there are none, that's on them

[@user-lk4ge3ns2g]

@@opticalraven1935 he gathered a lot of inspiration from real folklore, and as such from a real cultures as well. there is CLEAR eastern inspirations in mordor allied cultures, it is undeniable. i can agree that i don't know about WWII. that is probably a huge stretch

[@sonicfreak04]

I like how Miyuzaki talks about allegory in lord of the rings when Tolkien has gone on record to state that his work is neither allegorical nor topical, Tolkien hates those.

[@HuntingTarg]

Not entirely accurate. Tolkien professed a dislike of allegory (he didn't think Lewis should have published _The Chronicles of Narnia_ in their final form, or _The Great Divorce_ ), but from what I understand went on record as follows: " _The Lord of the Rings_ is not allegory about atomic power, but is allegory about Power."

[@ironbaysqiureg4827]

​ @HuntingTarg It's not an allegory it's literally just the story about it. Story says power bad does not mean it's some kind of elaborate thinng when literally it says it.

[@domainmojo2162]

Most authors hate each other's work. Tolkien hated Herbert's "Dune", Miyasaki hated Tolkien's LOTR... it's natural. Its not about what you say about your work.. its about what others think of it. What you say or attempt to do, might not be the outcome. For instance.. Hitler said he his works were good and laid out the reasons why. WE don't see it that way. Just because Tolkien says this, does not mean that's what others see- and sometimes, they are right.

[@Yo_Cami]

Most of the authors didn't hate, they just didn't like the story and the vision of some story. People like to create beef between authors. Yep, Tolkien didn't love Dune a more nihilistic story than LOTR and it is ok.

[@domainmojo2162]

@@Yo_Cami Not saying it's not okay. That's all good. It leads to intersting life decisions. I do think they all need a good slap on the side of the head, with Time Travel though- to wake them up, cause they muddy around in the dark introducing and attempting to fix the problems of Destiny/Fate/Prescience, etc... When Time Travel can spare so much self-inflicted suffering and drama. A few tweaks here and there... and we're set! It won't make for "interesting" reading though cause we have a lot of imaginary masochists out there.

[@OlMrEllis]

Tolkien: [Writes about the forces of good prevailing over hordes of cruel barbaric irredeemably evil foes] Miyazaki: 'It's anti Asian discrimination'

[@adrianrodriguez8503]

Very evil, but not irredeemable, Tolkien said so himself.

[@rockonpurification]

Anti-Asian discrimination? Miyazaki doesn't speak for the rest of us Asians after his people (the Imperial era, not today's modern era) committed terrible atrocities to the other Asian countries, including mine. I do not hate Miyazaki, and I was a fan of him and still a fan of most of his movies, but because of this, my opinion about him is now lower.

[@craigthebrute8932]

​@@rockonpurification belive it or not, Miyazaki said hated the Japanese imperialism by hearing what the Japanese army have done to chinese people. But yeah, he's kind of a hypocrite like Alan More. Princess Mononoke literally have the protagonists dismember heads and arms from samurais.

[@letmedoit8095]

@@craigthebrute8932Hey, genuinely interested why you say that Alan More is a hypocrite. I read his 'V for Vendetta', but I don't know much about his political views, apart from what I can read on Wikipedia.

[@hamsolo5320]

​@@boraicho6144Miyazaki himself is very critical and hated the Japanese imperial army. You shouldn't call someone hypocrite without knowing in details yourself. Just because he is Japanese himself doesn't mean he supported the war by his own government.

[@PaddyMcMe]

One of my favourite things about the LOTR books was that the story didn't just end straight after the moment of triumph when Sauron was defeated. The story took it's time to allow all members of the Fellowship to return, gradually, to their homes and it was made very clear that ABOVE ALL ELSE their homes were the most fundamental things they were fighting for. It even went on to show that whilst some were able to return home and live their happily, like Samwise, making the best of his situation, falling in love, creating a family, etc. Emphasising how beautiful that return was for him for Frodo it was very different. Frodo started out as the most pure, kind, genuine and innocent hero basically ever in literature, and even he with all his promise and natural gifts was irrevocably changed from what he had seen and done and the burden of his role. So even though Frodo managed to return and could could enjoy his prize of relaxing, making merry and being with his friends, taking care of his hut and writing his stories he simply wasn't able to return with the same mindset and feelings he had before leaving. To the extent that The Shire became a difficult, painful and constant reminder to him of just how changed he was and how much he wished he wasn't. That was BLATANT commentary on the loss of innocence and the potential loss of self to the ravages of war. So for Miyazaki to read all that and somehow genuinely believe that LOTR glorified war is straight up baffling to me since he comes across as so thoughtful and perceptive in his story telling. I mean both Bilbo and Frodo desired to 'go into the undying lands' with their friends as that is where they felt most understood, that is where they believed they could heal. It's literally saying the pair of them wanted to go to heaven to be reunited with their fallen comrades as they are the only one's who could understand them and who they can relate to.

[@patriksnellman1550]

Ah, yes, Mr"Anime was Mistake" who's every movie is his final movie

[@elgatochurro]

tbh the mvoies are a lot fo work

[@daseapickleofjustice7231]

Irrelevant point LOTR is still a Russophobic work about marching against Moscow.

[@16-BitGuy]

it is a rumor he said that. actually he said so,ething else in a different context people didn't get

[@patriksnellman1550]

@@16-BitGuy hmmm, Mr "Anime was mistake the Rumor" then?

[@animeking17]

That was a mistranslation I think

[@ianrowe5048]

You did an amazing job defending Tolkien while simultaneously being compassionate and understanding to Miyazaki. Really beautifully done. Loved this video.

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you it means a lot!!!

[@hotumupix]

Yeah defending the racism of Tolkien more like. Especially when you view the east as corrupted and so will benefit from some colonialism. 7:42

[@ajb117]

⁠​⁠@@hotumupix wah wah wah cry harder.

[@cloudmonte4406]

@@hotumupix you're right, and it's happening in the real world. How certain media and news propaganda work, it's changing a little with people waking up, but it's undeniably still there...

[@etistone]

​@@hotumupixToday, and at the time of Tolkien, the east is coming to us, not the other way around, so even if in his books was a reference to that, then why should we feel bad about it?

[@sanmartinovallevictorjuven5187]

Many people don't understand that orcs are not based in non-europeans but in the other hand, the easterlings and haradrim are but it's established that since the start of the first age, Morgoth and Sauron enslave them.

[@laisphinto6372]

Also sauron Had more Humans besides the easterlings serving him

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

Painting the east as victims rather than evil incarnate isn't all that much better. This is the very same thinking that animated the so-called 'white man's burden' (whose cultural echoes remain to this day, shorn of its overt racism) and the very goal of Christian missionaries and western-idealizing reformists. It still isn't admitted that the east can be every bit as legitimate and wise and virtuous as the west supposedly is.

[@sanmartinovallevictorjuven5187]

@@laisphinto6372 Sauron unified almost all the people's of the world against middle earth, making them worship him as their God-King. Something curious about it is that Tolkien said that most of Rhun and Harad forces didn't respond to Sauron's call when the War of the Ring started due to the influence left behind by the blue wizards.

[@sanmartinovallevictorjuven5187]

@@ArawnOfAnnwn Why? It humanizes them, especially when Sam reflects about their purpose in this war. The story is centered in middle earth, one can't explore everything at once, of course there could be easterlings and southerners that could be virtuous and wise but it's very likely that those people are the ones who had chosen to remain in their lands and resist Sauron rather than join his evil forces.

[@richardbrooks5899]

Gondor literally colonized both of them.

[@mayaangelou1751]

This man was born in a country that worshiped its Emperor as a living God... if you want to look at pure racism, the Empire of Japan was on equal footing with their Axis power allies. The emperor of Japan and his little Nazi friends thought that the United States could never win a war against them because we are a country of half breeds. There's a racist here, but it wasn't Tolkien

[@maniravsadhur8409]

Indeed! I am always baffled by the fact that the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki somehow totally erased what Japan did during WW2. People seem to ignore that the Japanese killed about 6 million civilians in South-East Asia, which puts the country on par with its wartime Nazi ally. I love today's Japan, I am an admirer of the Japanese culture, but this revisionist narrative has to stop. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrifying, but not more that the killing of millions of people at the hands of the Japanese. Japan has no lessons to give to anyone.

[@fsdsdf7693]

How is it relevant what country he was born in? Tolkien was born into a country that spread slavery, famine and war into every corner of the world for centuries before WW2. Therefore he should shut the f up about war, evil and he should stop crying about how bad WW1 was for him -> your logic. Also it's no secret that compared to Germany and Japan, Anglo countries(most especially the US) worship their military and soldiers. Its a natural side effect of coming out of WW2 as victors. In post war Germany the US was also very unpopular for that among many people especially anti war pacifists like miyazaki seems to be too.

[@bulldogsbob]

@@fsdsdf7693 The British Empire ended slavery in most of it’s colonies.

[@1eyeddevil929]

That's the thing, WAS an empire. Let's ask what Miyazak thought about the former empire, shall we?

[@cashewnuttel9054]

He hates that his country did not win, and he blames the US for that, plain and simple. I honestly do not buy his "anti-war" messages. Most, if not all, anti-Americans call out the evils of the US to pretend to care about the people that have been affected, but in reality, they just do it for psychological effect or propaganda. If they truly cared, then why don't they call out the evils of other countries too?

[@belnonaodh1520]

Miyazaki's point is just plain flimsy from whichever way you look at it. His own works have never portrayed Western (or any non-Japanese in my experience) cultures in a good light, but he wants to play that card against Tolkein? Tolkein himself even shut down the theories that his stories were based on real world events, and specifically the second world war, very vehemently, likely before Miyazaki even read or saw the stories.

[@vornamenachname594]

you view the world though a lens of "fairness". You probably call people hypocrites often. Miyazaki is simply taking a side and it is his good right. There's no contradiction in disliking someone's work for showing your culture in a bad light, while you show their culture in a bad one also.

[@igorlopes7589]

​@vornamenachname594 The thing is that Tolkien explicitly said the Easterlings weren't some allegory for asians. And if you think numenoreans were portrayed as the good guys you definitively didn't read the Silmarillion...

[@Marshmellow3971]

Great authors don’t all need to love each other, and fans don’t need to dislike something just because their favorite author does. Tolkien famously disliked Dune, and Frank Herbert disliked Star Wars. Every author offers a unique perspective, some you’ll agree with and some you won’t. No art is universally loved or beyond criticism, nor should it be.

[@anonymousgoblin792]

Whole heartedly agree. No one is saying he needs to agree with everyone. But when his argument for not liking something is built upon total hypocritical bs, then yeah people are gonna call him out on it. I’ve seen tons of comments here point out the objective flaws to his way of thinking. If he didn’t like it just becuase he didn’t like it, that’s one thing. But to say stuff like how Orcs are racist caricatures of people is a straight up false statement.

[@Sun_Simp]

Most Manga creators hate Comics and Cartoons, they just use the "Tatemae", which is extreme politeness, something Miyazaki does not gives a fuck about.

[@UlsterHound77]

While yes, Miyazaki is in the unique camp of just genuinely hating everything. Hates anime, hates LOTR, hates his son, hates America, hates modern Japan. The dude has nothing but hate and anger.

[@jesustovar2549]

One example of this in classical music, Claude Debussy had really unpopular opinions on Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn and Brahms, he loved Wagner but then moved on, while mantaining certain influence, he LOVED Bach as well as other authors from past centuries like Couperin or Rameau, even Palestina. Sometimes these people sound like the most complicated beings, but they are in the medium, artists are very complicated people, sometimes you might love his work while not his views or who they are.

[@abstr4ct_c0nt3nt]

​@@Sun_Simp What's "Tatemae"?

[@k.t.8537]

He likes the Hobbit, tho. He included it in a list of his fav children’s books

[@AimForMyHead81]

Source?

[@richardbrooks5899]

Naturally, it's Tolkein's best book.

[@DIEGhostfish]

A lot of his coworkers at Ghibli cut their teeth on the Rankin Bass hobbit adaptation.

[@PC-tan]

​@@DIEGhostfish What does that mean exactly?

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@PC-tan I mean before Ghibli was founded most of them worked at the studio Rankin-bass outsourced animation for The Hobbit and Return of the King to

[@diogenestheshadow-banned2322]

When I first heard Miyazki's bitter and radical opinions on things, I was kind of appalled and disappointed by him. But then I heard more and more of his opinions, and it occurred to me that this guy is certifiably CRAZY and he therefore MUST be a real artistic genius to be producing these films. It's amazing to me that someone with a mind like his can function in society at all.

[@orrorsaness5942]

Amen 🙏

[@SC-gw8np]

If he didn't find his calling he wouldn't be functioning well amongst the mediocre majority in society.

[@daseapickleofjustice7231]

He’s just a normal guy, you’re the schizo rn bro. LOTR is a book about the wests war against the east. Specifically the Soviet Union. Take your copium somewhere else

[@NeostormXLMAX]

lmao amerimutt cope right here. miyazaki rightfully hated america, literally the most hypocritical nation on earth lmao, not even that mad a tolkiens racism but his hypocrisy, also this is the same man that insulted dune and constantly critiqued sci fi writers for not having black and white stories that were boring as shit lmao, also he likely hated the middle eastern tones of dune

[@AA-sm2mm]

Well society is fucked up and crazy no matter what so he is pretty average in his mindset

[@Lux_0-60]

That was perhaps the most polite way of saying that Miyazaki criticized and disliked the LOTR without really knowing what he was talking about, adding to his reputation as an ultracrepidarian and a bigot 😂

[@somarriba333]

I just watched a video on Frank Herbert hating Star Wars, Tolkien hating Dune, and now this.

[@lanevisual]

Same here, the Algorithm works. But this Video have a flaw. Since Miyazaki only disliked the Movies. So misleading Information. Otherwise the Video is fine.

[@angryvaultguy]

In short focus on the writers for their work but not their personality Oh and Tolkien also hated Disney

[@PC-tan]

So now we need someone big hating on Miyazaki. Or is not really ideal since he is still alive and still doing stuff?

[@KitlerZeBased]

Dune is a pretentious story that people get behind to seem sophisticated. I don't find it engaging or sophisticated enough. Maybe it's just me. Star Wars is for kids (big and small).

[@KitlerZeBased]

@_zapatoz_ Weird logic. Are you pretentious or simply factual for disliking pretentious people?

[@1TakoyakiStore]

If Miyazaki bothered to pay any attention to the books he would have most of his worries eased. What I think is unrealistic on Miyazaki's part though is if he believes that any pure depiction of a good vs evil situation is strictly a Western world cliche. Hard to tell from the video if that's a big reason why he hates Hollywood films or not.

[@Alic4444]

This seems an incredibly disingenuous video essay. Has Miyazaki ever actually said "orcs are supposed to be easterners?" Has he said "Tolkein entirely depends upon racism"? Those are the absurd claims. It seems about ten thousand times more likely that Miyazaki (or anyone with a brain) would be talking about the Easterlings in Middle Earth, which is a small detail overall but still a part of Middle Earth. Why make video essays to claim ridiculous ideas far beyond the few quotes the youtuber bothered to look up?

[@MrBazBake]

"Orcs are squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." --Tolkien angry that his orcs were portrayed as birds in a cartoon Yeah, Miyazaki noticing that Tolkien based his evil monsters on Asian features and then said he did so specifically because Europeans are as racist as he is... kind of gives this one to Miyazaki. Tolkien was an Imperialist. The British Empire was a brutal, bloody regime that slaughtered millions of people and kept them in constant oppression, including Asians. And then homie writes a book where all the Asians and Africans and extra-evil Asians threaten civilization. It's fine that you didn't realize Tolkien was racist. But he was. And now you now and have to deal with that.

[@kylepessell1350]

@@Alic4444 Perhaps this is a sign for you to dig up the truth for yourself. The history between western media represented by Tolkien and eastern media represented by Miyazaki is long, complicated, and very nuanced. Much more so than can be reasonably covered in an 11 minute video. Even beyond those two in particular, this topic has had people from both sides slugging it out for decades. To decry something trying to bring attention to it as 'disingenuous' seems to serve no purpose except to perpetuate the debate. Instead of complaining about it, take action to clear up what you see as a misunderstanding.

[@Raximus3000]

Makes sense. Just look at princess mononoke and Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. Everyone had their own reasons for doing things and most of them were justified.

[@shauntempley9757]

Miyazaki hates Hollywood films, because they take stereotypes of people, at both the individual and group levels, whether right or wrong, and runs with them. Also, they do glorify war in how he criticised them, which feeds ultimately back to the stereotypes and their depiction of them. His take on depictions of people from the East and Africans are a case of that, and the stereotypes are of them either being totally outright evil, or misguided and easily manipulated people. Both stereotypes are totally wrong, of course, but Hollywood films do not allow that to be explored, and of those that are, they are either framed in the slave era in the case of Africans, and WW2 in the case of the East. There exists only the cop films that are exceptions to that, but even there, they are showing the stereotypes of cops in uniform.

[@ashaw3737]

To be frank, I really like Miyazaki's films, but at the same time they've always seemed a bit stunted and naive to me.

[@bigverybigveryverybigveryv9829]

bro I swear Miyazaki sometimes sounds like the most active user of twitter

[@edwardperkins1225]

It seems silly for Miyazaki to decry violence in American movies when Princess Mononoke has the protagonist cut off arms in bloody fashion. Saying a mythical creature like an ocr must represent x minority is also nuts. Should we just assume every malevolent creature in Miyazaki's work is really x minority group? It's a good thing his actual movies are stories and don't turn into obivious rants of his political opinions like some Hollywood movies do these days.

[@neongenesis7236]

So he was first who began all this stuff about: Goblins, Orcs, Demons😈- are just misunderstood minorities.

[@AirsoftTim92]

Hate to break it to you, but Tolkien is the one who compared orcs to minorities. From one of his private letters: "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."

[@polaris1627]

I would agree if it was not for the fact that Ashitaka's killing are not intentional. At least not at all, the same premise of Princess Mononoke revolves around in words of the protagonist himself "not seeing the world through clouds of hatred". The Journey of Ashitaka begins as a colateral damage of foreign conflicts that he later tries to calm meanwhile tries to restord the nature that other have been destroying. The hole narrative of Princess Mononoke is about living at peace with Nature, and people without letting the hate and destructive nature of men disrupt that peace.

[@morningglory.2]

I think the major difference is that the protagonist Ashitaka’s violence is portrayed very clearly as something bad. He fights very hard to stop it from overtaking him, and his goal throughout the movie is to cure to curse that is making him violent and hateful. I love both lotr and ghibli but I do believe Miyazaki’s films are pretty much unilaterally conscious in their attitude towards violence and hate.

[@shastacat9632]

exactly the orcs dont represent anything in real life except victims of evil, "evil cannot create only corrupt" and that is exactly what they showcase

[@chulitna5838]

Miyazaki says that not understanding the historical context or significance of a story then misunderstanding Tolkiens villains is kind of ironic. I understand him not liking the glorification of war, but that is not what Lotr is about. Tolkien wrote about the Anglo-Saxons bravery and self-sacrifice in the face of conflict. Not to unsimilar to Miyazaki and his idealization of WW2 era Japan. The only difference is Tolkien is from England and a Christian, and Miyazaki is not. Tolkien believes there is an evil in the world that man must overcome, and there is a constant evil corruption that will take the hearts of some men.

[@gwang3103]

I suppose if Tolkien were a *Buddhist*, then his views would be very different, because in Buddhism all sentient beings are seen as Buddhas-in-the-making, and evil is due merely to ignorance. His trilogy might then end with all the bad guys becoming good. Hey, what can be impossible in a fantasy world?

[@HuntingTarg]

​@@gwang3103 Only Tolkien wasn't; and it's hard to imagine a Bhuddist fighting in a war as Tolkien had (WWI, France). So if Tolkien had been a Bhuddist he might have written something entirely different from The Hobbit and LOTR.

[@HuntingTarg]

Miyasaki, if I may dare to say so, is presumably a Shintoist, who sees 'good' and 'evil' as part of the duality in the balance of nature. That Sauron should be utterly destroyed, Saruman and Grima disappear into obscurity, and Aragorn be crowned king of an enduring throne are 'totally out of whack' with his worldview, so his characterization of the movies is at least comprehensible on that point. He seems, from the recounting here, to miss things like The Ents conquer Isengard and are not themselves conquered by anyone, the Hobbits return to their own idyllic Shire and are not kept as vassals or made feifal lords by Aragorn, and there is no 'occupation' of Mordor or the Southron kingdom. I think his disdain (contempt?) for Hollywood leads him to judge, if not prejudge, the LOTR trilogy out of cultural context and apart from its true merits.

[@gwang3103]

@@HuntingTarg Some if not many of the Japanese who fought during WW2 were Buddhists. (And regretfully, they were mostly unwilling conscripts as well.) The Shaolin monks occasionally engaged in wars, too. I don't see why Tolkien couldn't have written The Hobbit and LOTR if he were a Buddhist. He still could, except there would be major differences in the storyline. (Shrugs.)

[@HrHaakon]

​@@gwang3103 We saw buddhists in WW2, and Japan killed about 9 000 civilians a day.

[@ReverandSatan]

(The following statement is 85-ish% a joke...) Sounds like Miyazaki is just pissed his country lost. Shouldn't have fucked with America's boats.

[@kazekami5513]

there are some people that'll cry about how the us started it cause they sanctioned japan before pearl harbor. When they bring up that argument, it can easily be destroyed by a simple question as "Now, why did they sanction them?"

[@CT2507]

Oh, he doesn't like shooting and blowing up things? Why is it used in so many of his films then?? ;) He is right about Hollywood using eastern people as cannon fodder though. But Lord of The Rings is not Hollywood. But him saying that the ones being killed are Asians and Africans in Lord of the Rings, makes no sense. The main enemy is Sauron, orcs and goblins. Who are local races. The fact that a couple of african-looking or asian-looking mercenaries join his army makes good sense within the universe of Lord of The Rings, because they would be the most likely mercenaries. You wouldn't see local regular elves, hobbits or dwarfs want to be mercenaries. They would have to be people from far away countries who didn't care for Middle-earth. He believes that the orcs and goblins are inspired by Asians and Africans?? Thats paranoia and rubbish. Orcs, goblins, trolls and so on, are old European and Nordic fantasy creatures inspired by all sorts of demonic beings from the old European folklore. Demons that guard the underworld we live in and so on. Miyazaki is an overly sensitive fool who reads too much into Western symbolism, a culture he knows only from the outside, so he doesn't understand it. He just gives in to unfounded suspicions. Why would we in the west consider goblins and orcs to be dangerous Asians? We never considered Asians to be dangerous, or Africans for that matter.

[@gustyko8668]

Totally agree. Though, about your question as to "why Miyazaki shows weapons and war in his movies", it's for exact same reason Tolkien shows industrialism in Middle Earth, *to show them in a bad way* .

[@CT2507]

@@gustyko8668 Yea, I guess that makes sense. Cheers.

[@justinmccurdy9319]

Tolkien refuted the accusations of racism and moral geography that were leveled at him on many occasions during his lifetime. For example, he said that the East-West dichotomy in Lord of the Rings materialized naturally due to the needs of the narrative he was developing and that it had "no modern reference." Moreover, he always openly criticized Nazism and other racist theories and condemned the treatment of black people in South Africa during Apartheid. I find it hard to believe that he would intentionally put racist messaging in any of his works.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

"and condemned the treatment of black people in South Africa during Apartheid." Wonder what he would say living in South Africa today...

[@cjr-en4wr]

@@Fridaey13txhOktober ?? south africa is a wonderful country

[@skorathereckless6449]

@@cjr-en4wr their third major political party talking killing all their farmers they have had party control since end of apatite

[@loganw1232]

@@Fridaey13txhOktoberbelieve he would still condemned the treatment of Blacks under Apartheid, but criticize the government and anti-white or Afrikaans hatred in many parts of South African society.

[@maniravsadhur8409]

Unintelligent people will always try to make everything about our present and what they think they know about it - which is generally very little. Also, there are many people from the young generation who take everything literally.

[@celestialhylos7028]

Only the East is always villinized. Bauglir who sat on the north mountains : Am I a joke?

[@yourhighness6457]

Literally who?

[@pindanetel]

as it should be

[@MagusMarquillin]

@@yourhighness6457 Morgoth Bauglir, AKA Melkor (the original and much worse dark lord)

[@kolbywilliams7234]

Middle Earth’s greatest enemies were from Middle Earth, or from another metaphysical plane of existence. Besides that, it’s strongly implied that Easterlings, Haradrim, etc. were manipulated by Sauron into going to war. They aren’t the real villains, even though they are antagonists. There is a massive difference.

[@LeginusRex]

@@kolbywilliams7234 well said.

[@captironsight]

I think anyone who consumes Tolkien and identifies with Morgoth, Sauron, Orcs or Goblins is pretty sus.

[@murfreehills7410]

Honestly though, there's just something appealing about their type of evil. No sugar-coating, just a nasty, corrupted bunch who wants to see Middle Earth in their grasp.

[@makytondr8607]

Miyazaki was likely just referring to the movie trilogy, and movies in general. I agree with him that there is an inherent bias against “inferior people” from “inferior places” prevalent in Hollywood. Just think of all the caricatured portrayals of “oriental” people. However, If he had read the books, I don’t see how one could come to the conclusion that LOTR portrays a west vs east conflict that parallels real life. Tolkien in fact specifically said (numerous times) that he dislikes allegory and that he specifically made his stories NOT based on real historical events. He wanted to create his own, fictional history, and he seemingly got greatly offended when somebody suggested he had just copied reality.

[@user-cw4zj6kc8u]

In my writing class we had to take two famous characters from different stories and put them in the same scene together. I had Aragorn meet and talk with Prince Ashitaka. It really showed how similar their worlds and quests were.

[@spencerstabio5936]

That sounds really cool. It's fun to imagine what conversations characters from different worlds would have.

[@edwardperkins1225]

LoL! Just don't tell Miyazaki. 😊

[@kennethsatria6607]

Man that would be an interesting conversation between warriors/soldiers who had to hold themselves to a greater standard to lead by example.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

I'd be more interested in a conversation between Aragorn and Paul Atreides tbh. For those who've only seen the first Dune film, Paul is NOT a hero. He's responsible for a religious war that he himself is horrified by. Tolkien infamously hated Dune btw.

[@ophanimangel3143]

@@ArawnOfAnnwnWhy do you talk as if we don’t know about these characters? Dune was a product of its period in the 60s. Lots of stories around subverting hero’s journey has since proliferated in modern fantasy and sci fi literature. And the movie that Villeneuve made isn’t as good tbh. Less nuanced than even Life of Brian did around similar themes in the 70s.

[@dagan8659]

frodo was very charitative, and didn't want to kill anyone unless needed. same for aragorn, they were not chasing orc, they were reacting to they brutality, what the fuck miyaki ranting at, he must put down the flask a bit more often.

[@miniflem1]

As should you, how bollixed must you be to type such gibberish.

[@radoslavjovanovic9692]

There was no threat from Mordor in the first place, if three guys can dismantle millions of your soldiers then you don't stand a chance, second nazguls are funny not really worth on battle field(Witch king killed by female) easterlings are again nonething compare to army of dead. So Sauron don't stand a chance from the beginning till the end

[@ancientdarkness3102]

​@@radoslavjovanovic9692tell me you havent read the books without telling me you havent read the books

[@DanielGomez-xo1sh]

​@@radoslavjovanovic9692wow... thid is the worst take on lotr that I have ever read

[@radoslavjovanovic9692]

@@ancientdarkness3102 This is all from movies, you are confused.

[@iegormykhailov8934]

Lord of the Rings is the opposite of war glorification, let alone depiction of dominant races as heroes (The Downfall of Numenor, The Oath of Feanor, etc.). As much as I love Miyazaki's work, I'd guess either his opinion was misunderstood or he didn't give it enough chance, being biased towards "whatever comes from the 'west' want's to colonize the mind"

[@dococ3272]

If Tolkien was a REAL “genius” like Miyazaki he should’ve disowned Chris for not creating a sequel that was better than lotr. You know what Miyazaki!? At least Tolkiens work WAS TOLKIENS WORK. You over see a studio of story board artists, animators, colorists, writers and the funding of producers and judging by how you’re deified in Japan you’d think you were the only person in that studio. That’s never been the case, his movies have NEVER been completely his own yet he always takes the credit, disowned his son for not living up to that and criticizes people who made far better works on their own. Tolkiens son Chris filled in some gaps, because Tolkien wasn’t a self righteous Jack&$$. He served his country and criticized war, Miyazaki hasn’t so much as served his own family much less a community or something greater and criticizes war because his nation lost and refused to surrender foolishly, not because he has skin in the game or has seen the brutality first hand, nope just a “wars bad, m’kay” routine. Wow, a true modern day prophet. He was a toddler with no memory of his evacuation yet blamed his parents in the past for not doing enough to stop Japan from going to war or serving. The mind of a truly weak man.

[@brandybox7560]

Here, Here.

[@No_Relation_666]

Nausicaa was written and illustrated by him and only him, the movie had help as opposed to the manga however. The process of creating a book is not the same as film, one person alone realistically can’t make a good film. One person alone can realistically write a good book.

[@Jonabob87]

Shame he feels that way, I always assumed he'd see the similarity in themes between his and Tolkien's work. It really doesn't sound like he's actually read LOTR though if that's what he's come away thinking. That Sam line is exactly what sprang to mind just before you brought it up. Or the Faramir line, "War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."

[@monnaranzoti732]

Myazaki's cristicism is fair. "(The Orcs) have squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."" - J. R. R. Tolkien The association between orcs and Asians isn't a "interpretation" some readers got from the text, it came out from the literal mouth of Tolkien. This videos's author omited this fact, for some reason.

[@chrisrapp7733]

@@monnaranzoti732 you tired of posting that crap over and over again

[@finnofzaun9209]

@@monnaranzoti732 In the hobbit films, the orcs have white skin and tall figure, does that mean they're designed after white people? if so why shouldn't white people be upset?

[@ansibarius4633]

@@chrisrapp7733 Why would that be crap? He did write it, and it seems relevant to the subject matter, even though one may suspect that his choices have more to do with traditional in-group preferences regarding human beauty than with racist perceptions per se of Asians being evil. (After all, the Orcs are not even human.)

[@vileluca]

@@monnaranzoti732 Which part is offending you? The part where Tolkien lists some physical features that aren't even the features that the Orcs in his story are written with? If you track the features to his descriptions in books, what's he describing seems to be the half-Orcs of Saruman (not the Uruk-hai). The part where Tolkien feels the need to elaborate on physical features, listing them at all? Because the context (often completely omitted when this quote is bandied about by bad actors) is him responding to a movie script in which someone has turned Orcs into bird people. He's only pointing out human characteristics and where you might see something similar to them because someone gave them beaks.

[@lizardlord4k]

To pull a passage from one of Miyazaki's own works, one must view the world with eyes unclouded by hate to truly grow.

[@erictrobin]

And yet, he was blinded by his anti-West hate, which prevented him to understand Tolkien

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Cry harder

[@green_of_grey]

Indeed.

[@anonymousgoblin792]

@@carlosalbuquerque22. It’s just the truth.

[@boraicho6144]

​@@carlosalbuquerque22it's just a reflection, not that's relevant for a random troll.

[@user-hn7rd6nr6k]

Miyazaki is an environmentalist an anti-war he was an infant and a toddler during the second world war and grew up in the ashes of his country. hence why he probably held resentment to America. Tolkien childhood was during the Victorian and Edwardian periods and live through both world wars serving in the first world war in all of its Horrors he literally seen the height of his nation's power and then seen its fall from Global hegemony to a secondary power. he also held resentment to the world that came after Britain both these men's life stories are easily defined the differences in their ideology.

[@whitemakesright2177]

Tolkien said explicitly that his work was not intended to be an allegory of any real nations or conflicts. Certainly nothing in the modern era. If anything, the armies of Sauron are inspired by the wars between the Goths and the Roman Empire, or later the wars between the Huns and the Roman Empire (in which the Goths joined on the Roman side, a la Rohan and Gondor uniting against Sauron). The Mongol invasions are another inspiration as well.

[@seto_kaiba_]

Why are commenters assuming Miyazki is A-ok with what Japan did in WWII. His works and his statements on the war show that he hated what his country did in WWII. Is his criticism of Tolkien fair? No. But that doesn’t mean he is a Japanese imperialist.

[@LunamrathP]

Far from it, if you delve into the two, them and their works are ideologically quite similar.

[@mumak333]

Why does Miyazaki assume Tolkien also liked the British Empire & what they did too? Tolkien likes his Englishness & condemned the empire, as much a Miyazaki likes his Japaneseness & dislikes the empire as well.

[@LunamrathP]

@@mumak333 Probably the same character flaw that has compelled so much of this comment section to assume that Miyazaki liked the Japanese Empire. It's rather ironic.

[@sayerglasgow115]

As we all know, since thing A and thing B are in opposition, it is impossible to dislike thing A without supporting thing B. Truly a galaxy brained way of viewing the world.

[@seto_kaiba_]

@@LunamrathP 100%. And both also have kind of a cranky opinionated views on life--and often are sharply critical of certain works that don't fit how they view fiction should be done (i.e. Tolkien disliked Dune and Disney). But imo at this point-they get to be a bit cantankerous even if I don't agree with everything they believe.

[@WolfGr33d]

it sounds like Miyazaki misinterprets the films to be literal spiritual representations of the books. But it's widely believed Tolkien would probably not have enjoyed the films himself for similar reasons.

[@samiamtheman7379]

Given that JRR Tolkien's son hated the films, it's very likely he would've as well.

[@dovekie3437]

That's a huge step. He was annoyed at his son at a young age because he was more obsessive than tolkein himself about the accuracy of his stories.@@samiamtheman7379

[@ellie7252]

@@TT09B5 I mean, I don't think you have the right to say how Tolkien's own son should have felt.

[@green_of_grey]

@@samiamtheman7379 Bold assumption, men are not judged by their sons (or grandsons for that matter). Everyone has their own thoughts. I have probably read %90+ of all Tolkien wrote and continue to re-read his works because I find them beautiful. I do not see anything particularly wrong with Jackson films and I do cherish them. Many readers who I personally know loves those films and think of them as spiritual representations of the books in film form to a certain extend (obviously as a projection). Almost all important themes of those books are in the films. This separation of book vs film does not justify Miyazaki a single bit.

[@kellydemando3303]

@@TT09B5the thing is that once people read the books after watching the films, their understanding of the books could potentially be clouded by the interpretation presented in said films. But it’s also a massive book with a world that becomes an entire hobby in itself to read, understand, and appreciate (as opposed to speed reading it to check it off a box), so how many people are actually going to read it? Especially after they have what they assume is the gist of the story?

[@Gandalfthewhat]

Miyazaki is the greatest example of seperating art from the artist.

[@zulthyr1852]

and what of Lovecraft?

[@Gandalfthewhat]

@@zulthyr1852 don't know much about him. But I heard he was racist?

[@zulthyr1852]

@@Gandalfthewhat he called his cat nіggerman, and had a poem called "On the Creation of Nіggers"

[@poki580]

"Hayao Miyazaki needs no introduction" ive never heard of him tho

[@beanzor]

This reminds me of all the "Anime was a mistake" memes about Miyazaki

[@echidnanatsuki882]

If you look at the context more deeply, you'll see that he didn't actually mean Anime itself but more like the culture it produced as time went on *"ahem"* , Weebs and Hentai Addicts

[@litterbox2010]

Hey! Don't lump us in with weebs!@@echidnanatsuki882

[@barbarianillust]

​@@echidnanatsuki882 that's also not really the context. Please don't use this as an opportunity to use those terms in a pejorative way. What he meant in context, is that he believes it's better to create characters that are natural, that are like real people. This is naturally the opposite in many ways to Moe (whether it's bishoujo or bishounen), which is not a representation but an expression where characters are "ideal" and "mercurial", thus behave and express in many different manners that you don't really see in the real world. And Miyazaki sensei believes that this is because of a "hatred for the real people." In other words, he doesn't understand Moe affect in the same manner as we Otaku do, and he doesn't like it either. But quite the contrary, otaku culture (not weeb. Even though it's used as a joke, and I use it myself as a joke about myself in English, it's not really the same thing as Otaku) is very united and often accepting of one another, with our flaws as human beings. Also, at the time, Otaku in Japan was seen as some kind of person who couldn't adapt properly to society (hence in the early 90s sensationalist newspapers in Japan would often ask if "Otaku can tell the difference between reality and fiction or not"). But as time went on Otaku have become more of an integral part of Japanese society, and are more accepted nowadays. Now it's okay to be an otaku of anime in different enviroments, such as school, But Miyazaki sensei is simply a man from another epoque. Even if I don't agree with him, and I really don't appreciate his remarks on the fans of the LOTR movies fans (he says so about the movies, not the books), there's a lot of respect for him, because his achievements are huge! And his talent undeniable.

[@pablocasas5906]

I thought that quote was completely made up, but many people believed it because they think it's something Hayao would say

[@Halfort57]

​@@echidnanatsuki882not even that. He said "My anime career was a mistake"

[@theponderingwarrior7839]

This just goes to show that just because you create beautiful works of storytelling that resonate with people. It doesn't necessarily mean you are good at critiquing others authors work.

[@Annatomova7]

I love Miyazaki, but he’s not a perfect person… neither is Tolkien. As fans and viewers, we forget this… In a way, we’re dehumanizing these people by painting them in such a black and white way, which is kind of what both Miyazaki and Tolkien end up doing themselves. 🤣

[@nahidbethehonoredone]

I love Ghibli and I respected Miyazaki man, from themes of coming of age in Kiki to nature vs man in Princess Mononoke, I looked up to him as the father of anime film and anime classics, the one who gave many across the globe their childhood anime, including me. He basically made the Japanese version of Disney (pre-3D animation) and restored that magical moment for us that was gradually lost ever since the 80s-90s. I looked up to him even as both a weeb who's been enjoying manga and anime for about a decade now and an aspiring author-artist who wants to write my own novels, short stories, manga/comics, and create films (especially anime) of my own. But I am also absolutely in love with high fantasy, and world building, and messages of hope and redemption and light and absolute truth, that there always is good in this world despite the darkness and evils. That is what Tolkien created, a beautiful and magical experience in his Lord of the Rings. I absolutely adored LotR and look up to Tolkien in as much as I do to Hayao Miyazaki (alongside other notable Japanese creators such as Eichiiro Oda), and with Tolkien's fellow Westerner authors like Herbert and Orwell (as you can notice by now, I am absolutely in love with the fantastical, world building, and grand storytelling, from the magical, beautiful world of LotR, and the sci-fi world and allegory of Dune, to the gritty and crushing politics of 1984). But this LotR slander I will not let slide. I absolutely love LotR as much as I revere Tolkien himself, and my great love for Ghibli movies will never cease simply because I disapprove of Miyazaki's personal opinions; I continue to respect his craft as a creator and wish to emulate his success in writing, but beyond that I will not approve of his obviously wrong takes about Tolkien and will certainly not accept LotR slander!

[@chejonte]

And then Miyazaky makes a movie about a dreamer and airplane engineer and keeps quiet about what happened in Manchuria. Don't hide behind the West Hayao.

[@mikicerise6250]

Yeah, it's a bit precious to have him go on about racial superiority and militarism in the West, given that World War II was fundamentally about defeating people who believed themselves racially superior and liberating the "inferior" peoples suffering under their boot, and guess which side of that war Japan was on, and which side of it England was on? Guess who voluntarily gave back all the land they stole from China (Western Europe), who had to be forced to give it back (Japan) and guess who never gave anything back (Russia)? I mean, I despise the history of Western imperialism, and every kind of imperialism, but as Miyazaki would say, a bit of 'self-awareness' doesn't hurt.

[@anonisnoone6125]

@@mikicerise6250 So cos he was Japanese, that somehow means he can't criticise other countries? He didn't like Japan's role in the war either so what's ur point?

[@slynt_]

@@anonisnoone6125 Well for one thing, the survival rate of POWs taken by the Japanese is close to 0%. Take that in for a second, then think about whether this narrative of the evil exterminationist West versus the pure peaceful East makes any fing sense.

[@SoftBoiledArt]

@@mikicerise6250 Stupidly irrelevant, so, Miyazaki did all that? how that makes a point on context? Not to mention Japan does nothing today.

[@daseapickleofjustice7231]

Not as bad as writing a book about operation Barbarossa before WW2 even begun.

[@Dirt-McGerk]

It's kinda funny because the works of both Tolkien and Miyazaki not very subtly involve the perils of imperialism, industrialization, demagoguery, war/conquest, ecosystem destruction etc. You'd think Miyazaki would find a kindred spirit in Tolkien.

[@Otakumanu]

Tbf he was talking about the movies rather than the books.

[@itsnotborker456]

@@Otakumanu he mentioned the books as well, not just the movies

[@Otakumanu]

@@itsnotborker456 The translation was a bit confusing though, so I'm not entirely confident saying that he felt the same way about the books. If you have a better translation, do tell me.

[@scythianking7315]

I lost SO much respect for him on his LOTRO opinions. He's arrogant, and ignorant

[@Row_of_E]

Tolkien hates Dune, Herbert dislikes Star Wars, and Miyazaki isn't fond of LOTR?! Can't these geniuses of storytelling just… get along?!

[@No_Relation_666]

There is nothing wrong with not liking something

[@anastasia-fr1gn]

I like Miyazaki films, but aren’t many adaptations? Isn’t he a filmmaker first while Tolkien and Herbert are authors and in my personal opinion greater storytellers…

[@chriss780]

@@anastasia-fr1gn Nausicaa is based on a mag he wrote himself, more than half are not adaptations, and the ones that are, Howl and Ponyo, change drastically from the source material

[@iguachumontiel]

Quoting Cowboy Bebop, I think that the answer is that people who are the same just can't help but hate each other.

[@meronyach.]

I respect Miyazaki as an artist and writer, but frankly, his opinions come from a perspective of perceived superiority, and narcissism. He often claims to know better, but speaks from a place of ignorance.

[@markedoner1eford653]

He speaks out of his position of authority, its kinda common in Japan to have old people complaining about everything and criticizing everyone because they are of higher social status. Japan and Asia in general have a culture of total respect and obedience before authority and especially "elders" so Miyazaki pretty much says whatever he can because who's gonna oppose him?

[@Redcloudsrocks]

I mean a lot of people do..if I asked you things in a casual interview setting or convo you would no doubt say dumb things from time to time or just say things you don't REALLY mean but you have strong feelings about so they come out that way

[@meronyach.]

@@Redcloudsrocks True, but Miyazaki makes a pattern of treating others as lesser than himself, it's not just Tolkien. He thinks everyone and everything should cater to his perspective. He comes off as one of the righteous types he himself claims to despise.

[@TheKnoxvicious]

Right? He hates everything

[@monnaranzoti732]

Myazaki's cristicism is fair. "(The Orcs) have squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."" - J. R. R. Tolkien The association between orcs and Asians isn't a "interpretation" some readers got from the text, it came out from the literal mouth of Tolkien. This videos's author omited this fact, for some reason.

[@jokhard8137]

3:22 Miyazaki is totally right on the part about "meaningless deaths". This might sound like a strange example, but if you have ever ran a Dungeons & Dragons campaign, you will know the experience of players going out of their way to help a local goblin community that has been making hit-and-run attacks on a nearby town's trade caravans to peacefully resolve their issues with the encroaching human settlements, instead of, you know, just driving the goblins away so the new settlements can thrive. Nothing seems to be harder than just getting the players to "play the game like it's Lord of the Rings", despite the game being directly inspired by Lord of the Rings. Maybe I'll try drawing inspiration from some of Miyazaki's works and see how it turns out.

[@lucyarque2946]

I really enjoyed hearing your thought process in this video, and how you are able to think about these subjects in a way that is original to yourself, distinguishing your opinion from others

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you, it means a lot!

[@napoleonfeanor]

Tolkien was grumpy but Miyazaki simply doesn't even care to even understands the work he created. The original evil of middle earth comes from the North. Miyazaki is just a sore loser who cannot get over the war and see Japan and the West are now friends.

[@stupidpol]

it doesn't change the fact that orcs in his works are dehumanized despite being sentient beings

[@augusto4359]

you can disagree with him but... calling miyasaki a loser is wild my dude lmao

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Whine harder

[@DeepCFisher]

Judging by some of Miyazaki's other words, I would say he is more of a misanthrope. He seems to lash out at nearly everything, both Japanese and American and even China. He seems to look down upon most of humanity from what I have seen.

[@62cky4powerthirst]

It's more like Miyazaki knows both America and Japan are fake: but especially America and he's not entirely wrong. Imperial Japan built it's ideology of racial purity over Korean and Chinese based on American race laws and based their expansion into China as their version of "Manifest Destiny." Miyazaki grew up in the aftermath of Japan's failed attempt at playing colonialism. He views Imperial Japan as stupid for trying to be like America, current Japan for sucking up to America, and America for being a bunch of violent, genocidal, war exporters.

[@user-qs6wo5fr1r]

Tolkien's concept of the orcs predates the Second World War, and it's hard to see Tolkien being unduly influenced by American bias against Japan in conceiving of villains.

[@lordleynard66]

"The Lord of the rings is a movie..." He is clearly commenting on the movies and knows nothing about Tolkien and his work.

[@VoIcanoman]

If you come away from reading the Lord of the Rings with the opinion that it glorifies war...you missed the point. I could see how an under-informed viewer could conclude this from watching the films, but that would also be ridiculous. The movies in particular take pains to show us the costs of war on those who fight, while the books mourn the loss of all the good in the world, the cost of the war to all of Middle-Earth. They do glorify the ability to fight for something that is right, like how the hobbits, shaped by their experiences, are able to lead a revolt against those who have occupied the Shire, but even then, the costs are emphasized, and Frodo works hard to protect the lives of men and hobbit collaborators alike from his vengeful folk. The books make the point that war is sometimes necessary, lest those who would use violent means to gain and preserve their own power oppress everyone who is not willing to fight to protect themselves. To Tolkien (and indeed, to me) pacifism is a naive ideology - his own writings are more grounded in reality than the pacifists' beliefs. As for the West vs. East claim, that is a convention of the 2nd and 3rd ages. The 1st age of Middle Earth saw evil spread from the North (first Utumno, and later, Thangorodrim). Moreover, Tolkien hated allegory, so interpreting his works as enforcing a direct parallel between "The West" as a concept of Anglo-American hegemony, and the kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan, or indeed the sunken Western isle of Numenor is specious. Yes, his mythology was intended as specifically English lore, something that could have developed naturally in England like the legends of other lands, and sometimes the languages he invented have direct parallels to real languages from the British Isles (like Rohan's language has strong parallels to the Anglo-Saxon tongue). But the idea of taking his history of Middle-Earth and regarding it as analogous to the real history of England is ludicrous. It is clear that Elves are the highest beings anyway, and they are being progressively replaced by human empires...willingly. Such a concept is foreign to the real world. And regarding the Easterlings and Southrons (the evil men fighting for Sauron), I think it is clear that he saw them as victims of Sauron (Gandalf, the beacon of Tolkienesque morality, pities those who fight for Sauron). They may represent "the other" and could possibly be interpreted as racist caricatures of actual human cultures, but I'm not learned enough on this subject to really have a strong opinion on that possibility. As for the orcs, I think Tolkien initially created them as irredeemable - they cannot choose to be good, they can only destroy. This allowed him to avoid moral dilemmas in mowing them down during battles, but I think he did regret this choice later on, being a Catholic who believes in the possibility of salvation, no matter your history. Certainly, the films did not ever suggest that the orcs were analogous to any particular real culture on Earth...they are not human, they are mythological beings that serve a purpose in the story, and reading into the choices made by Peter Jackson in how he showed the principal adversary his heroes encountered during the trilogy would maybe enable you to comment on Jackson's biases (though I think that would be a waste of time), but certainly not Tolkien's.

[@Bluesonofman]

The Orks are literally corrupted Elves, one of the two races created by the God of that world.

[@dtmt502]

why do they have darker skin in LOTR while Elves are white

[@Bluesonofman]

@@dtmt502 Why are Demons generally depicted as Red? It’s because they are corrupted. It’s not a race thing it’s a Good vs Evil thing. Evil in fantasy is always ugly.

[@ophanimangel3143]

@@dtmt502 Your brain is sure working right (not). Darkness and light are often metaphorical representations around stories from around the world. In Near Eastern or any other folklore there’s always something about depicting darkness that isn’t viewed with full innocence and joy.

[@dtmt502]

@@ophanimangel3143it's just your typical dull story of 'good' vs 'evil', white vs black

[@ophanimangel3143]

@@dtmt502Irony is that we see racism, sexism as ideas to be condemned but sure no such thing as actual “evil” or “good”…moral relativism in its full irony.

[@augmenautus]

Tolkiens' works are really reflective of his time serving in World War 1. Miyazaki incorrectly sees them through the lens of World War 2.

[@VegetoStevieD]

Yes.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

Tbf a LOT of people even in the west see LOTR through the lens of WW2. Or even modern conflicts, like in Ukraine. They just love moralizing war, and LOTR gives them a well-known metaphor for that. Tolkien would likely be horrified by how many people call other real people 'o*cs' nowadays.

[@monnaranzoti732]

Myazaki's cristicism is fair. "(The Orcs) have squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."" - J. R. R. Tolkien The association between orcs and Asians isn't a "interpretation" some readers got from the text, it came out from the literal mouth of Tolkien. This videos's author omited this fact, for some reason.

[@Lord_Numpty]

@@monnaranzoti732 Copy-pasting your argument doesn't help it, it just makes you seem lazy and like you have a point to push irrespective of whether the OP appeared to initially disagree with you or not. In this case, Augmenautus said 'Tolkien used his experiences in The Great War as a point of reference, Miyazaki erroneously looked at it as though it was the second world war' and you responded with 'but racism though'.

[@cjr-en4wr]

yeh the renowned genius is wrong and we should listen to some dungeons and dragons kids instead..

[@storymaxart]

Great analysis, I really liked the narration - keep it up! And also great insights in the comments that people give, on the difference between Miazakyi's views and actual work

[@diegonatan6301]

Miyazaki also hates in his words "everything that parades its righteousness" like "the righteousness of the US, the righteousness of Islam, the righteousness of China, the righteousness of this or that ethnic group, the righteousness of Greepeace" because "they all claim to be righteouss, but they all try to coerce other into complying with their own standards" so by those quotes we can already see that even if he didn't have misinterpreted this anti-east bias he would still hate Lord of the Rings since it shows that there is a side that is objectivelly good and other objectivelly evil, he would interpret it as self righteousness.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

The Eternal Centrist....

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@Fridaey13txhOktober He's not centrist, he's a localist. Ironically much like Tolkien. Both of them dreamed of a world with a multitude of local cultures that each do their own thing. And opposed imperialism, and Hollywood, for spreading more of a monoculture. They both celebrated diversity - true diversity, not how the American left uses that term today.

[@TheKnoxvicious]

He sounds like an incredibly exhausting person to be around

[@etistone]

I think you have a very good point here.

[@LordSiravant]

Ultimately Miyazaki is much like Tolkien in that he loves his own works but hates the modern world and everything about it. Two men who would rather have lived centuries before our time.

[@johnmazzel2898]

Tbh, a lot of the discussion around Miyazaki’s attitudes towards the west and his opinions on World War II strike me as more apologetic, than anything. He’s obviously under no obligation to approve of western cultural attitudes or American cultural dominance post World War II even if Japan did worse things during the war. That said, I do think his criticisms of the Lord of the Rings are pretty unfounded and would mostly wash away if he actually bothered to engage with the text itself instead of just dismissing it as western chauvinism, and the fact that this seems to be such a consistent thing with him does give me the impression of him as an unreasonable and needlessly difficult person who’s way too stuck in his ways to seriously engage with art other than his own

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

Hypocrisy and self-righteousness do often go hand-in-hand. Tolkien, as a Christian, likely undestood this better than most given that the Pharisees-the main human antagonists of the New Testament-were the epitome of this.

[@vohloo9797]

​@@boeloevanboeloefontein In a sense we at some point have or will be the pharisees, once you get to a high position it's easier to look down on the ones below ones you reach the top. Jesus's main criticism of them was that they were more focused on seeming holier than thou, than instructing people on the law of Moses. Miyazaki is particular since he always seemed to be a curmudgeon. Though his criticism of anime was that it was self influential and didn't look much to outside sources for inspiration, yet here he is looking at an outside source and mischaracterizing it.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

@@boeloevanboeloefontein More like the ones who wrote the New Testament were this epitome.

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

@@Fridaey13txhOktober tell me you know nothing about early Christianity without telling me you know nothing about early Christianity.

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

@@vohloo9797 My point exactly.

[@samwallaceart288]

The thing is Tolkien wasn't happy with how he handled the Orcs either. He made the Orcs explicitly sub-human and separate from the misguided but redeemable easterlings and such, so that you could see the Orcs as a stand-in for the worst of people, the most degraded of society, the most selfish and cowardly. But the more Tolkien thought about it, the more he found this unsatisfactory. In later letters, he pondered whether or not even the pure-evil Orcs should have souls, and that if they have souls, that they should be worthy of redemption. I see Tolkien as a man who came from the culture of killing "the Turk" or "the Hun", the same culture that primed America for killing the Indians and the Blacks; but Tolkien himself was on the cusp of realizing, "even a fictitious pure-evil, pure-barbarian, literal mud-people . . . EVEN THEY shouldn't be regarded with the such flippancy and dismissal". Tolkien sort of figured it out too late for it to affect the work entirely, but it's not nothing. I see _The Lord of the Rings_ as a final celebration of everything great about British culture, but marks the beginning of realizing such simple notions of "kill the goblin people" isn't good enough a viewpoint. Like, _Lord of the Rings_ transferred our racial violence onto a fictitious beast race while humanizing the misguided Turks and Easterlings, so that later stories could go ahead and humanize _all of them._ I don't see Lord of the Rings as backwards, i see it as a necessary middle-step out of tribalism that was worth taking and should be respected as such.

[@chlorox01]

I think the differing views from these men are very obviously derived from their personal experience with war. Tolkien served in active combat, as did his son, and watched many people die. I imagine the thoughts Sam had about seeing men in war and wondering if they were truly evil is something Tolkien himself wondered while on the battlefield. Meanwhile, Miyazaki was born into war and had his childhood stolen from it. I think for Miyazaki to say that these works are racist or glorify war are naive and I think he doesn't understand the deeper tones of the story. I respect Miyazaki and his work immensely, but these are two very different men with very different experiences with war and its no wonder they would have differing opinions on it.

[@zsedcftglkjh]

Miyazaki's critique of Hollywood is fair enough. Even Christopher Tolkien said that his father would not enjoy the LOTR movies for their over emphasis on action scenes. Aside from that, it is obvious that Miyazaki has never read the LOTR. Such a shame. The two have much in common, deriving their themes from nature, history, mythology, and in Tolkien's case, Catholicism. While neither men are perfect, Miyazaki's life is speckled with bitterness and prejudice often against people who have nothing but admiration for his work.

[@SpikeJet2736]

I love his movies but the more I learn about Miyazaki's views, the less respect I have for him as a person. That Indiana Jones comment alone really rubbed me the wrong way. He comes across as the kinda person that if I were to watch a movie or show from 2001, he'd be right there to remind me that it came out the same year as 9/11 like gee thanks for ruining the mood, dude

[@Sir_Adam]

Or the type that thinks every film needs to have a message, and if it doesn't, then its shlock.

[@cashewnuttel9054]

To be fair Indiana Jones movie are overrated; only the third one is good.

[@Sir_Adam]

@@cashewnuttel9054 Factually Wrong. First and Third one are great, the second one is ok.

[@mttrnx]

“War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers

[@pericles9629]

Miyazaki exemplifies a very specific strain of Japanese thought which is convinced of its superiority but forced to grapple with the nation's near total military, economic, and cultural subjugatation by a barbarian nation. He can't rationally deny that Japan was the aggressor or that America won so he settles for an invented moral superiority where his peaceful rural protagonist live in harmony with nature before modern industrial warmongers attack them unprovoked.

[@jordanmatthew6315]

American: *[Breaths]* Miyazaki: "I hate that, i despise the very existence of that, it disturbed me". American's: "Miyazaki . . . chill bro, my god."

[@aaronlaughter6471]

America: "Do we need to drop a third sun?"

[@ophanimangel3143]

@@aaronlaughter6471Imperial Japan: make another Unit 731 in response

[@aaronlaughter6471]

@@ophanimangel3143 Do we need to drop a 4th sun, we have plenty of suns.

[@doraemon61377]

He is probably the Steve jobs kind of guy. A perfectionist, a tyrant and a “I am the smartest one in the room” kind.

[@samuraijosh1595]

lmao why are the westoids malding

[@notthefbi7015]

Miyazaki is an interesting person to me. I agree with a number of his messages he always comes off very pretentious in these interviews acting like somehow his style is superior. Also likes to seem to try and victimize himself. For example using his example in Indiana Jones in the 5 of the movies that have been release 3 of them (1,3, and 5) the villains are the white Nazis, in 4 its the white russians, and in 2 it was Indians. It simply not a good example of America making Africans or Asians the bad guys, which is his criticism. To say Lord of the Rings glorifies violence is also pretty silly. Not to mention his idolization of a Japan that never existed. Industrialization didn't happen because of the west, and Japan didn't lose touch with its roots because of the West.

[@fairies47]

I think you're right, Miyazaki, despite all the admiration and respect I have for him, don't understand at all what Tolkien's work is about. Did he even read the books?

[@xenon7617]

The fact that Miyazaki couldn't understand the Lord of the Rings doesn't come as a surprise considering that he can barely write a story that makes sense. For him, details are in superficial looks, not narrative nor character development.

[@tvsonicserbia5140]

Here's the problem though. He actually LOVES the BOOKS, he defends the books in that same quote, he referenced Gondor in Castle in the Sky and also put The Hobbit on a list of best children's books. You are spreading misinformation. He talked about the movies here, and yes he sounds likes he's talking out of his ass because he probably is and he probably never saw the films as he stopped actively watching movies almost completely somewhere in the 90s. He was aggravated by the war in Iraq and american blockbusters were an easy target, except he didn't even realize the LOTR movies weren't really made by Americans.

[@HuntingTarg]

It would be nice to have a source reference, since the uploader has Miyasaki sounding like he hasn't read the books and is just being wholesale critical of American filmmaking (not wholly unjustified, even before 2020).

[@tvsonicserbia5140]

@@HuntingTarg Well the source for everything he said and more can be found in the book Starting Point

[@lanevisual]

Finally. I just wrote this! This is insanity. I Wonder why this Channel does that. The Clickbait ist fine and this Video could be 95 percent the same and people would liked this one. Misleading information....

[@XenophonQ]

It’s funny, because if he had actually read Tolkien he would have seen so much of his own writing style come through

[@LordProteus]

Miyazaki is like one of those Twitter users who criticizes things they have not read or watched and instead projects their own cynicism and dissatisfaction with the world onto them so they have a target to vent their frustrations onto. As well, one of those people who criticizes everyone and everything but does not accept that they themselves could be in error, the kind of Person who will criticize someone or something and then go "not me though" or "its different when I do it". His work is great, but I find the Man himself kind of loathsome.

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

Guess miyazaki didnt do his research

[@brometheus5019]

It's a typical pre woke honest liberal take. Superficial and naive but well meaning. I remember when lotr movies came out my older sister was like "the orks are supposed to represent black people." Having read the books and understanding fantasy in general I totally disagreed but could see why she, not being a nerd like myself, would make that assumption.

[@monnaranzoti732]

Myazaki's cristicism is fair. "(The Orcs) have squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."" - J. R. R. Tolkien The association between orcs and Asians isn't a "interpretation" some readers got from the text, it came out from the literal mouth of Tolkien. This videos's author omited this fact, for some reason.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

​@brometheus5019 God I hate liberals.

[@alexsaavedra8927]

weird to see him hating on tolkien when they have similar motives about nature over industralization

[@boeloevanboeloefontein]

He's a very self-righteous fellow compared to Tolkien. Everyone else always has to be in the wrong, and he'll be as shallow as he deems necessary in his understanding of others to make it true in his own mind. He's also incredibly hypocritical across the board besides.

[@SoftBoiledArt]

@@boeloevanboeloefontein Tolkien was also a suporter of Franco, a fascist dictator, and you sound awfully like one too.

[@T-h-a-t_G-u-y]

@@SoftBoiledArtCalling someone a fascist because you disagree with them is peak gen Z mentality.

[@SoftBoiledArt]

@@T-h-a-t_G-u-y Right! whatever the guy with the non fascist avatar says!

[@benjamincarmine2566]

Doesn’t matter how alike two philosophers are, they will always clash

[@Valstein0]

Classic example of not kowing the works deeply and looking for something negative to criticize. Although, I do prefer Miyazaki.

[@outofoblivionproductions4015]

I have just realised that contemporary villains will complain about being the victims.

[@MrTsiolkovsky]

Evil feels that it is the victim of Good. Once I understood that, the world made a lot more sense to me.

[@Ryan_Gutz]

Wow, damn. This hits home; quite a revelation. You’re both right.

[@Ryan_Gutz]

Brilliantly put. You’re right, that dynamic is everywhere.

[@VegetoStevieD]

@@MrTsiolkovsky That reminds me of the phrase: "The Jee. U. cries out in pain as he strikes you."

[@MrBazBake]

The Nazis literally worried about the destruction of western civilization all the time. It's not a nee phenomenon. Mass murdering racists always create myths to justify their mass murder and racism. Nazis had everyone who wasn't Aryan, Americans had the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, kids played Cowboys and Indians to amuse themselves with genocide, conservatives have their gay/trans agendas, Southerners had a crisis of communist Jewish miscegenation conspiracies... and still do...

[@mickeygklug]

Just curious. Did Miyazaki ever go on record with his thoughts regarding the wartime Japanese mistreatment ( to put it very mildly) of the Koreans, Chinese, Filipinos, and others? (BTW, I’m not taking anything away from Miyazaki’s work. He’s a genius and created work of lasting beauty.)

[@doraemon61377]

He is probably the Steve jobs kind of guy. A perfectionist, a tyrant and a “I am the smartest one in the room” kind.

[@lettuceman9439]

He isn't very fond of Japan either specially the Imperial era.

[@lllKXlll]

I just came from another video on why he hates America, and apparently he hates Japan too, to put it simply, he hates any country ties to war.

[@darthvadeth6290]

Toeken fanboys going wild in the comments with the ad hominem attacks just because somebody dares to not like LoTR, lmao

[@lettuceman9439]

@@darthvadeth6290 the problem is he probably never have read LOTR and asserted something that is antithetical to what Tolkien put in the LOTR. He has done the same thing with some Works like Earthsea which he eventually backpedaled after actually reading it.