Why I Was Wrong About Full ROM Reps (NEW SCIENCE EXPLAINED)

[@CaptainAthleticism]

Somehow I don't ever see anyone talking about why stretching builds more muscle. It's not simply only that it would aid newbies still experiencing newbie gain. It works because as the body is repairing the muscle damage you've accumulated, if you keep stretching, it still has to build more muscle to keep the damage from happening again, so it puts the body in a state of continuous growth in the meantime, because the potential of more muscle growth is still there in whatever meantime it takes to repair the damage from stretching and exercise.

[@CaptainAthleticism]

I enjoyed listening so far, but I've still got something to talk about with anyone about stretching. When I talk about stretching, people act like it's so difficult to comprehend what I'm trying to say. If you're going to say you'll be using full length partials, use more weight than you would naturally be able to use with full rom. Stretching before a workout people talk about it being one of the worst things you could do before a workout. It's true that stretching decreases power output, by 30%. But that doesn't have to mean it's a bad thing. Have you ever tried to lift weight at a full stretched position? You already can't use the full output of your stretch to even lift a weight as you could using peak force generated at 100% peak contraction. People like Jeff Nippard, even lots of people, really, they do some lengthened partials at the end of their sets, which wouldn't be even very helpful because by that point they aren't even able to use the same working weight as their sets. Stretching while exercising wirks on only some muscles. Because not every individual muscle head is attached to an adjoining bone on the skeletal structure. The ones that aren't, they would be shorter, and hence, thus, more powerful, so you really shouldn't make lengthened partials the basis of your entire workout. In order to build muscle, then you should be using heavier weight than what you would normally be able to do to tire out those areas not attached, so that you could really actually exclusively target the stretching areas of the muscle. The point is to not be doing more work without needing to. Stretching in general helps building muscle, if you heard that a 30% decrease in power, thinking that to be a bad thing, I'd be one who would argue, no, it makes the workout 30% better. The idea is specifically that you can't use the weight that you would be thinking you're sure to use if you're going for a full peak contraction. If you're not using heavier weight to be doing lengthened partials, then you shouldn't be doing them at all to be building muscle or gaining strength, you should be doing them to build strength, and how do you build strength, by using heavier weight than what you are used to. Using full lengthened partials any other way is like trying to say that there's a magic cheat code, a trick, some secret that is going to give you an advantage to build muscle. There's not one. It's the same for if you were trying to use slow time under tension, yes, it builds more muscle, but it works best when you are only using a heavier weight than what you normally would, otherwise, what are you doing? The human body can already withstand a greater force on the eccentric motion to the exercise. So if you're not using more weight than usual at a lengthened position, that's 50% less effectiveness on 50% of the full contraction, adding more work with any less weight, isn't even about to do jack shit. And they're called lengthened partials for a reasons, you wouldn't normally have to go full contraction with a weight to still know the workout was still working as long as you can still move that weight.

[@LochieDavidson]

Thank you for the detailed comment! You bring up some great points about stretching, muscle contraction, and training intensity. I’d love to explore these ideas further and provide some research-backed perspectives on stretching and its role in muscle growth and workout effectiveness. You’re right that static stretching can reduce immediate power output, which is why studies generally advise against extensive stretching right before high-intensity or power-based exercises. Research shows that static stretching can reduce peak strength and power output by approximately 20-30% in some cases (Kay & Blazevich, 2012). However, dynamic stretching, which involves active movement, tends to be more beneficial pre-workout and doesn't significantly impact performance, making it a better option before lifting. Studies support your point about stretching and lengthened partials as valuable for muscle growth. Lengthened partials (or stretch-mediated hypertrophy) are effective because muscles are often able to generate more force in lengthened positions, stimulating different muscle fibers and promoting hypertrophy through muscle damage and tension (Schoenfeld et al., 2021). However, it’s not solely about using heavier weight; targeting the muscle at this lengthened position itself maximizes mechanical tension, enhancing muscle growth. Regarding eccentric loading, research shows that muscles are indeed stronger in the eccentric (lengthening) phase and can handle heavier weights, which stimulates muscle fibers differently compared to concentric (shortening) motions (Hody et al., 2019). This is why some athletes and bodybuilders use heavier weights for eccentric motions or lengthened partials to maximize muscle growth. However, optimal weight selection should still be within safe limits to prevent excessive strain or injury. On muscle damage and repair, you're correct that repeated stretching can stimulate growth by inducing micro-damage, which the body then repairs, promoting hypertrophy. This repair process, especially when muscles are repeatedly stretched under tension, can increase muscle fiber cross-sectional area over time (Proske & Morgan, 2001). This effect is often more pronounced in beginners, but even advanced athletes benefit from strategic stretching in lengthened positions. You also mentioned the importance of using heavier weights and progressive overload in lengthened positions. Research confirms that progressive overload is essential for muscle growth, and that different contraction lengths and angles can stimulate muscle fibres uniquely. For triceps, as you mentioned, different heads may respond to various angles and contraction lengths, which can help target the entire muscle more effectively (Kubo et al., 2021). In summary, stretching, lengthened partials, and eccentric training each offer unique benefits for muscle growth when used correctly. Stretching pre-workout may reduce power output, but using stretch-mediated techniques during and post-exercise can promote hypertrophy and aid recovery. It’s all about using the right method at the right time for maximum effectiveness! Kay, A. D., & Blazevich, A. J. (2012). Effect of acute static stretching on maximal muscle performance: A systematic review. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 44(1), 154-164. Schoenfeld, B. J., Grgic, J., Ogborn, D., & Krieger, J. W. (2021). Muscle adaptations to various resistance training programs: A meta-analysis. Sports Medicine, 51(8), 1575-1601. Hody, S., Leprince, P., Sergeant, K., Rahmouni, S., Benabdallah, S., & Rogister, B. (2019). Muscle damage induced by eccentric contractions: Mechanisms of pain and strategies for recovery. Frontiers in Physiology, 10, 1-13. Proske, U., & Morgan, D. L. (2001). Muscle damage from eccentric exercise: Mechanism, mechanical signs, adaptation, and clinical applications. The Journal of Physiology, 537(2), 333-345. Kubo, K., Morimoto, M., Komuro, T., Yata, H., Tsunoda, N., & Kanehisa, H. (2021). Effects of muscle length on tendon and aponeurosis stiffness during human muscle contractions in vivo. Journal of Applied Physiology, 130(4), 1228-1236.

[@CaptainAthleticism]

@LochieDavidson I made it sound like I'm all about using heavier weights like that's all it would take with possibly a stretch and that it is all there needs to be for mostly muscle growth. I didn't mean to phrase it like that, I'm sorry. Why I was doing it that way was more simply so I could say that there's no one stop shop for when it comes to muscle growth. I think I wouldn't need to tell you this, but I think that the question is less in importance of what's better, and more the question would rather be is it having you get a better workout, it's like you can't supplement having a better workout without actually getting a better workout. And I made it sound maybe like I'm suggesting to do crazy amounts of stretching before an extreme exercise. I hope that you didn't take me too seriously. I more than that just generally believe being flexible aids itself the benefits into strength and hypertrophy. I have to make it sound like that because I am who has been choosing not to sound like I think one thing when in terms of strength or hypertrophy one way would be better, while still expressing my interest in saying to people that it works and why I would still have something to say about it if I had thought it was actually really able to do good helping someone. I know I wanted to say that it's not that I'm super into believing that what matters is using heavy weights or stretching all the time. But, I know you're right about how getting a stretch doesn't have to always be about doing it with more weight, that stretching alone in any sense of that would aid in muscle development. It's just make yourself sure that you're aware, not that I'm having to try pointing it out, but be sure to remember how it also does matters about time under tension. I wouldn't need having to lean in so hard on using heavy weights when with a stretch, if it wasn't of just one of the reasons being that it pretty much is less than a half of even a full contraction. I think it's great whenever you've been like that having to control the weight lol just because it's been just so damn heavy, I mean, I couldn't complain, it's like if it means I have to soend more time under holding the weight, and it makes me do that, it's doing something, haha. It's kinda hard sometimes to work on some better way than that. I totally still agree with that it's needs to be in a controlled safe manner. I don't know if you picked up on what I was laying down, though, about it doing just what just that it is you were agreeing about, how it would work muscles differently. Some of the muscles, parts I mean, they don't connect to an opposing joint. Some of the benefit of going heavy while getting a stretch is due with that it targets the part of the muscle better that is, while still providing at least enough stimulus to the part that isn't connected by that because the part that isn't still remains at a less stretched position, it usually produces even more force. It's not bad to use lighter weights and getting a stretch, but how I see it, like that is like exercise itself alone is beneficial towards flexibility even when it's just contracting muscles and only that's all it is. I don't have a scientific way to fact check that by saying that, but the best way I'll be able to describe it is just with like arm wrestling. I used to arm wrestle, I mean all of the time. I got iddy tiny arms, 13in, but I've witnessed somehow it worked. You know how you had been saying that stretching whilst during the exercise has been able to show a benefit scientifically being significant, and how it's more prominent in newbie goers? I'm making it my argument, not really an argument just hear me out, if you can believe in how a stretched position is able to benefit muscle growth by itself just by doing it anyhow you can, then you can believe that the stretch and at on a lengthened position whilst doing more of a static, slow, heavy full length partial, it be even better for muscle building on that part of the muscle that doesn't connect to those two joints. I think it's worth mentioning because I've seen people plenty of times doing full length partials, but that doesn't mean that they are in it just to be building a better overall muscle, by not having any interest whatsoever in things like heavy weight at all or static holds at all, some of them even do use time under tension without a stretch, and yet, only do just the weight that would normally have been using. I can't explain why, because that's like still leaving something out on the table. I used to arm wrestle a lot. And, there definitely is an observable difference in the bicep size between my arms. The thing is, I had the type of muscle that just wouldn't quit. I was small, only 125lb, but was still overall the strongest and most athletic of my school, I could curl 65lb in one hand either arm, but what I was really known for is my endurance, I mean, I didn't exactly ever have just a one rep max, my 1rm was really my 3rm, like if I had to I could produce the peak amount of force that can my muscles produce and do it more than once still. So, even if I wasn't about just the strongest around when it came to arm strength, no one would beat me, because that's what would happen, as soon as my arm hits 75 degrees, it's just stuck there, and then that's how I'd win by outlasting them. My arm was mostly stretched like that during arm wrestling. I think you might have been making a mistake, although, not trying to nitpick about it, in a way I understand what you were meaning in saying at a lengthier position that produces the most force, but on the other hand, I don't think that's generally true. At a lengthened position, you would produce a lesser force, peak contraction is able to generate the peak amount of force. It's almost like in arm wrestling, you'd imagine that having a lengthy arm makes someone better at arm wrestling, but in actuality the person with the smaller arm length can actually still produce a greater torque because their muscle doesn't have to contract as much just to be producing any force. If you asked me, but I don't expect that you'll believe me the way I'm about to put this, but, some of the promoted benefits of full length partials and those that have been using it, it's almost still like they've been shooting themselves in the foot by becoming too caught up by it, a little bit, some of it is still just overhyped way too much because your muscles weren't designed to be moving heavy objects while at totally fully stretched positions, and in some exercises it's actually not what you should do. You have to think about how the muscle was designed certain ones. Like, there's no doubt that it's like I still would believe that stretching while doing the exercise for the, lat exercises for example, it for sure would work wonders on the lats, I do think so. But at the same time, however. It's a big muscle, and it can not only help pulling down, it can pull objects from above and across from the other side of the body as well also. So, for it, it's less important to be having a stretch than to be using a usual heavy amount of weight just to be having a contraction, like that's how it was designed. Sometimes the only way to get really a better workout is to go heavier and while making sure that you could keep as much better beneficial form to it as possible if you can allow it, getting a stretch is like an accessory of that, that aids in it. I have to thank you now. I was getting tired of getting in long winded strung out arguments about lifting and science based lifting, like there really needs to be any debate, in the comment section of mainstream fitness influencers. And, you're actually helping me out right now, because I as it turns out just found another perfect video supporting how I would be able to talk about this in the later future with people, and I really needed to find that qoited reference to that about it reducing power within muscle, like just found it the last video I watched before replying. It's about tendon strengthening. I knew that you have to strengthen the tendons slowly but with lots of weight, because sometimes you build say 10lg of muscle that took about 2 years to build and yet the tendon only grew stronger like a 3rd of that total time. I know that you need to be careful about it. But, this video I just watched was talking about science based way of strengthening the tendon, it's kinda funny how stretching reduces power output of muscle within the muscle, but yet, in order to be strengthening a tendon then, you still have to be using about 70% of the total contractional force your muscles are able to produce.

[@CaptainAthleticism]

@@LochieDavidson kzbin.info/www/bejne/d2Spk2SYrax7r9Usi=AlWk5nnHM9LVWDYJ

[@CaptainAthleticism]

It matters which muscle you were trying to test these tests on. Measuring the triceps for part of these tests would be ineffective at determining whether it works. The tricep is a complex muscle that can more or less almost produce the same amount of force in any position. Doing different exercises builds the tricep differently. I just don't even just mean on the individual heads themselves, but within each and every individual muscle fiber that is running along the length of the tricep. ... another reason for why if you're going to be using lengthened partials (or what you said, I like that better, with a stretch), you should be using slightly heavier weight than your typical set. If you think that stretching will revolutionize your muscle gain, you can't just go back to doing exactly what you would be doing before, you need to throw out and revise your whole working out methodology, then. Simply adding something to your current normal usual routine and saying it's the only trick you need is a cop out for actually getting a better workout.

[@Joecommax]

Are you British I like your accent 👍

[@LochieDavidson]

yes mate I am

[@Joecommax]

@ the best accent I like it that’s charming for me