Why Ironman are WRONG To Ban Disc Wheels at Kona

I'm out in Hawaii courtesy of www.parcours.cc/. Dov from Parcours has been doing some testing and doesn't think ironman are right banning disc wheels.... here's why.
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[@kanst22]

His explanation of center of pressure is super similar to what they do with missiles and aircraft. If you want stable flight you design the thing to have a center of pressure behind the center of gravity if you want super agile steering you design the center of pressure in front of the center of gravity. As a super simple example of this, make a paper airplane and attach a few paper clips on the front of it, and it will fly further and more stable.

[@AnvilAirsoftTV]

When I was a fairly average domestic TT rider I was aware that a rear disc wheel improved stability. It’s fairly common anecdotal knowledge in the TT community. You would run a disc unless the wind was strong enough to physically push the bike sideways. It has happened to lighter riders at Kona but is super rare.

[@mattk8810]

Riding a disc literally feels like riding on a piece of plywood.

[@grahambell9831]

Loved the tech talk from Dov and the dark art of aerodynamics. Full disc is stable? Wow! Impressive Physics! Watched the whole race live here in the Toon, what a race! Congratulations to the podium winners 🏆 and also to Fanella 👏....90 degrees & 80% humidity.....Oh my days! Dovs bike on GTN too!

[@JoshuaBorrow]

You should get Dov to talk about their gravel wheels with built in dynamos for Jimmy :p

[@richardmannion2779]

Great explanation from Dov. Like a lot of TTers and Du/Triathletes i only put the disc cover on for race days. i train on a lot of the same roads as i race on and (incorrectly) thought i didn't notice the wind as much in a race because i was in a race and had other things to think about. Makes much more sense that the bike is less impacted with the disc cover on.

[@swe223]

I do the opposite, the disc wheel is always on, for every single training. Get used to it. I don't understand why anyone would buy a good wheel to let it in the garage. It's not like it's gonna wear like a tire or something...

[@TriathlonDan]

Love this! Hope you have an incredible time in Kona. TriathlonCade????

[@amytysoe2292]

i suppose it'll also be bringing the centre of pressure much lower as well, so even if the raw lateral force being exerted is bigger, it's acting closer to the contact points making for a lower tipping force/moment

[@ScottWaltonDev]

Totally agree. I’m an amateur TTer and I’ve ridden a disc in borderline storms on the A189 which takes you over some really exposed bridges. You get pushed about a bit but you won’t fly away.

[@simonlinser8286]

I'm wondering if the aero advantage outweighs the wind thing, but now im realizing that even with a full on side wind it really doesn't increase your drag, right? do spokes really contribute that much drag? i guess they do there's so many of them, and don't some wheels have flattened spokes more like a. blade shape? wonder where the best is....i don't know anything about discs

[@Miekzz]

that's really very interesting. thanks dov for the explanation

[@niekversteege]

I've also experienced that a disk makes me more stable. I rationalized it as: the ratio of surface that catches wind that is able to steer vs. the area that is not is decreased. So this leads to less movement in your steering column due to wind.

[@garysladek9110]

Cheers, and thanks for the video.

[@bertchalmers]

Is Dov putting a 3Ax sensor on the frame as well to get a delta between bars and frame - giving the full scale of how big the 'oh shit' moment is relative to the whole bike? Big fan of Dov and very jealous that he gets to do this to improve his product

[@ParcoursDov]

Not yet, but I can certainly see the logic in doing so. One of the biggest challenges with a project like this is processing the data afterwards & linking it together from multiple sensors.

[@stevevanness4195]

Electronic stability control would seem like a possibility (electronic shifting seemed crazy a few years ago). I also wonder if anyone is working on a well integrated & efficient dynamo to run all the electronics on a bike, it would eliminate a lot of batteries & charging.

[@aauden]

You could have picked me up a Kona Bike Works cycling cap...mine has just given up the ghost :-)

[@jason200912]

Basically the only explanation you need is that the disc wheel increases upright stability a ton and you can do it when testing a loose disc wheel detached from the bike. Impossible to angle the wheel sideways while spinning Now as for why the rampant anecdotes for friends of friends of disc wheel users falling and dying: it's because they used a deep section front rim. Deep sections on the front have been known to blow pros off course when they are riding to close to the edges. The rear wheel is being held because it's fixed in angle and always points straight. Until the wind is so powerful to push your entire frame and overcome the friction of your rubber tires, you will be safe. If it's too windy for disc wheels as the anecdotes say, then it's too windy for your (front) deep section rims Now as for why the front rim is entirely what causes the blowing off course. It's because the wind doesn't need to push the entire frame like it has to do with the rear. For the front wheel, the wind only needs to be strong enough to pivot your fork sideways, ignoring the strength of your rubber tires. The only thing preventing that front section from pivoting is your own torso downforce weight. And using deep section front rims is what gives the crosswind more leverage to throw your front wheel around. So those anecdotes for friends of friends that you hear? Theyre placebo lies. It's their front deep section rims that's causing them to get blown off course from vehicles and windy bridge crossings.

[@thestreakpodcast]

Super video. Ironman have banned disc wheels at Kona since the 80s. Almost immediately as triathletes started using them in about 83 or 84.

[@citicyclekidd858]

he definitely had explained that very well and he correct. that just how the air works around the wheels during moving thew air.

[@leetaylor9368]

Are you cycling up Mauna Kea?

[@CycoWarriorx]

His explanation of how cross winds interact with a disc wheel was interesting…

[@crashkg]

Would the added spinning weight in the solid wheel also add to the gyroscopic stabilizing effect?

[@kevinmccloy185]

Very little- the weight being added is close to the center, lessening the effect

[@Xhadp]

You may be right that it can actually prove to be a benefit. But I agree with the decision of the banning based on something you said: "For super lightweight riders it acts as a wall" if it poses a serious safety concern even for a fraction of the participants than it should be banned for all in the name of safety rather than creating many loopholes that would be unjust towards a subset of participants. The tech is still there and should be talked about and explored rather than just saying oops can't do anything since its banned.

[@capt_darling9454]

Yea.... Thanks for explaining that... Still don't understand 😜

[@illhosin714]

Watching your videos daily recently , and it's crazy how if Jota and Sofiane had a baby , he would look like you😂

[@Cade_Media]

I’ve had mason mount before but those are new!

[@illhosin714]

You should check out 😂 btw axesome content I just subscribed today after watching plenty of videos , keep up !💪🏼

[@Andy_Lewis]

Re Ironman banning the disc wheel, is that why HED brought out that Jet 180mm deep rear wheel I wonder?

[@CoachPursuit]

Yes

[@JakeMay]

As if KZbin's auto-captions can accurately subtitle "ultrasonic anemometer".

[@leonschumann2361]

very hard agree, with hard R

[@kidkarbon4775]

Would a preferated disk wheel be legal in Kona as it's not a solid disk? Or why not run a wheel so deep that it has a hole about the size of the cassette (still not a disc) Is there a maximum wheel depth allowed in Kona?

[@globalwarsrocks]

HED have just released a wheel that looks like that. Only a small hole. Looks weird but it's a good workaround I guess.

[@kidkarbon4775]

@@globalwarsrocks that's really interesting, wonder if anyone is using it at Kona

[@globalwarsrocks]

@@kidkarbon4775 I actually saw someone with it on Instagram so I think so? Can't tell you who it is though

[@kidkarbon4775]

@@globalwarsrocks think I've found the wheel you mention, it's a HED Jet 180 which features a rim with an incredible depth of 180mm and it looks as if it was fitted to a disc brake bike that it would very nearly be a full disk. Pretty spectacular wheel from an appearance pets perspective.

[@ParcoursDov]

Yes, the new super deep rear wheel has been making some headlines out here in Hawaii this week. We managed to get a close up look earlier in the week and whilst on the surface there are some reasons why it would be beneficial, there are some other reasons why I'm not convinced it delivers all the upside.

[@jessicabudden5695]

Question: if disc wheels are more stable, does that mean we should be using them in road and crit races too?

[@robnolte2547]

They are super slow to spin up given how heavy they are. This isnt such an issue for TT's or Triathlon as once you get up to speed you rarely brake. Crits on the other hand are all over the place and you'd loose a lot in responding. Road racing i'd think being in a pack you wouldn't see any advantage from an aero perspective but you 'd get hit with all the weight penalty. My rear disc is on the lighter side and just the wheel itself comes in a 1100g.

[@ParcoursDov]

Not necessarily. As Rob mentions, you start to be more heavily impacted by the rotational inertia from a heavier wheel. Arguably more when it comes to braking rather than acceleration, but there's certainly plenty of factors to consider when choosing a wheel.

[@swe223]

Imagine the sound that would be produced by a dense packed peloton of 30 crit racers, each riding a disc wheel, exiting a corner and pushing 1000W. Holy cow.

[@robnolte2547]

@@swe223 oh my 🤤 surely parcour can help Francis make this a reality?

[@llavero5]

@@ParcoursDov Its crazy how ignorant people of cycling is. Guys, dont exist inertia! The little bit required to turn the wheel is returned in the next pedal stroke. Weight does not exist on flat, this effect is between marginal and non-existent. Aero is everything, even climbing. The Internet is free, they have thousands of studies, stop talking nonsense.

[@2000andybaker]

Has parcours website been hacked? Can’t get on certificate not valid?

[@Cade_Media]

working from here, might need to clear cookies

[@savagepro9060]

And so, ladies and gentlemen, that's how Ironman banned Francis from Kona! It was he DISC-respect!

[@rickaguirre8193]

The catch of a disc wheel is that amateurs buy or rent a disc wheel and do their race in it without much experience or practice. If you are not prepared then yes you can thrown off a bit or nervous with a hard crosswind. For the pros, they shouldn’t be banned at all, as this is their lively hood and they will have 100s of hours of practice to do it.

[@ParcoursDov]

One of the benefits of disc brakes is that you're less likely to need "race day only" wheels anymore - we always make the argument that riders should train on race equipment wherever possible to ensure you're as comfortable and confident as possible when racing.

[@qibble455]

Really disappointed Jimmy didn't manage to sneek along:/

[@thecyclingsoldier6732]

think they would just cancel them when the weather permits eh?

[@chrisstrider]

Fenella had the day of her life

[@allanfoster6965]

It does sound very counterintuitive. 🤔

[@hbade]

Science!

[@thebikepackingadventurer]

Disc wheels for the win. Plus they look cool

[@savagepro9060]

^^^ famous last words, at least that's what the medical team heard in the Emergency Room

[@Andy_Lewis]

Dov should’ve done the So Hot in a Scottish accent for full effect

[@gregspeakie4635]

Who has the least progressive and nonsensical rules between Ironman and UCI? Tough call...

[@pierrex3226]

UCI is way stricter. There's so much weird tech you can use on triathlons. The bike that IronUman runs for example, I forgot the name, is full of UCI illegal features. Brand is K something.

[@buildingreno]

It must be hard being the smartest person in the room all the time. You wear that hat well Dov. 🤓👍

[@ParcoursDov]

🤠

[@adyparipurna6325]

See what happened in sub7 sub8, when crosswinds created "ow shit" moment

[@swe223]

They were riding 5cm away from each other for maximum draft...

[@nibbs15]

Oh cool disk wheels

[@jonpoon3896]

I’m not worried about pros riding disc wheels. I’m worried about the amateur with a disc wheel about to crash into me

[@RunForPeace-hk1cu]

They Ban Disc wheels because when there's a strong crosswind in Kona it can cause accidents and possible deaths. It's more a safety thing than anything.

[@garethskwarczek]

Random question for Dov - Does he know someone called Ben Westlake? He looks and sounds so much like a guy I know called Ben its freaky

[@jbratt]

As a guy from a coastal town that has done a huge number of crosswind TTs, disc wheels (on the rear) are not a problem. A disc on the front is a different story 😮. It amazes me how many triathletes don’t take advantage of a disc wheel when it is legal. It’s money see monkey do.

[@mrpokeit]

SCIENCE THE SHIT OUT OF IT!

[@derekhobbs1102]

Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Fix that BB.

[@savagepro9060]

Kona = Disc Brakes, not Disc Wheels!

[@jakeydelacakey7698]

Watching this just made me clever-er

[@Sills71]

People that sell disks want them to be legal so they gain an advertising venue. Really simple math.

[@pierrex3226]

People who sell disks are the same who sell wheels.

[@stephenchu1115]

But the question is - is a back disc wheel faster in heavy cross winds? Probably not. Francis should ask Dan Bigham. Dan setup Filippo Ganna 1-hour record attempt bike to be the fastest bike humanly possible within the UCI rules. Two extremely simple and obvious things Dan did that none of the Pros in Kona are doing - 1) Ganna does not have brake rotors on his wheels because a wheel without brake rotors is faster than with brake rotors - this statement is too obvious to write down. So the Pros should be riding their old TT rim brake bikes or demand their bike sponsors to build them a rim brake TT bike. This will save them several minutes on a 112 mile individual TT. One day a bike company will figure this out and take the Tri market. I am surprised no one has figured this out yet. 2) Ganna is likely running 150 psi tubular tires and not 73 psi tubeless tires because the track is smooth. The Kona roads are deadly smooth. They probably paved them recently. Plus the Pros ride on closed roads, so they can choose their line (i.e. the smoothest part of the road). They are definitely not riding on the shoulder where there are gravel patches. So the Pros should be riding on high pressure clinchers with latex tubes because this setup is faster than a 73 psi tubeless setup on smooth roads. GC Performance tested this out and came up with a 1 kph increase in speed when riding high pressure clinchers over 73 psi tubeless setup on a smooth road. This is huge!! How can the Pros in Kona be so oblivious to these simple gains?

[@ParcoursDov]

Hi Stephen, there's a lot in here but there's a few things to bear in mind. The first being that when racing on the track, you run a fixed gear so brakes aren't required. Slightly different to what's needed racing on the road! We know from testing that removing the brake rotor makes any wheel faster, but that's only useful for one (very crashy!) ride. For tyre selection you may be surprised to hear that Dan Bigham (& therefore Filippo Ganna) are actually running a tubeless setup for their record attempts. In terms of comparing road and track, even the smoother roads will deliver very different responses. Having ridden the roads here, I can 100% tell you that they're not perfectly smooth, as well as having to deal with some pretty sharp shards of volcanic rock. There have been enough races in Kona that have been derailed by punctures to make a tubeless setup a really good option.

[@pierrex3226]

The latest Tri bikes are faster with disks than rims, check out the bike that IronUman uses, forgot the brand name. K something. For a boiler plate Tri bike though, yes, disk is slower AFAIK.

[@stephenchu1115]

@@ParcoursDov Thanks for the inside info on Dan and Ganna's tire setup. But I doubt that they ran them at 73 psi but likely closer to 150 psi. As a matter of fact, Dan's tubeless tires are ones that you probably can't buy in Wiggle or your local bike shop. It's more than likely special tubeless tires made specifically for the 1-hour record attempts/ successes. They probably have a half-life of 50 km and they probably used some hydraulic machine to put them on the Princeton Carbonworks disc wheels. I do agree with your two statements about disc brakes: "We know from testing that removing the brake rotor makes any wheel faster, but that's only useful for one (very crashy!) ride." So all we need is for the bike industry to invent a bike with brakes to reliably stop the bike without disc rotors. Hmmm. Maybe we should go back in a time machine and look at Tony Martin's 2011 rim brake Specialized Shiv.

[@_________4292]

Hellooo

[@jameshawkins5843]

Last 🌊

[@aweryc]

Это полная чушь. Влияние ветра крайне маленькое на заднее колесо! Люди в пелотоне ЗАДЕВАЮТ заднее колесо других людей всем свои телом и гонщик впереди НЕ падает! А все потому что заднее колесо лишено возможности поворачиваться и загружено всем весом гонщика. Так что айронмен тупо выдумает правила) Now in English Thats a a total bullshit! Impact a wind force to a handling is fraction of noting! People in a peloton having a crashes, when person behind one smashing in a rear wheel of other and man on the front NOT fall! That because rear wheel have no any possibility to turn and change direction of rinding person on bike. Hope non triathlete never believe in that)))

[@MikhaelHausgeist]

I say obvious thing about Your experiment... Turbulence.

[@fergusdenoon1255]

Flat earthers go out testing also... guess what they find... a flat earth...

[@pierrex3226]

They don't though, do they?

[@fergusdenoon1255]

@@pierrex3226 well they actually do, due to using completely incorrect methodology... which is the point. It seems to me we're dealing with an iD10t issue.

[@pierrex3226]

@@fergusdenoon1255and what's idiotic in the testing talked about in this video?

[@fergusdenoon1255]

@@pierrex3226 putting the sensor on the part of the bike that's compensating for the inconsistencies, without having a sensor on the back of the bike that's actually capturing said inconsistency, it's like having a data point of - 5 which is compensated by 5 which ultimately gives you 0 and only looking at the 0 in your data analysis and discarding all the other information. Implying the center of gravity changes to something benificial like downforce, when the center of gravity has actually been shifted to beyond the bike, it's no longer underneath you, it's at the side of you, which is not a good thing for stability. It could cause you to angle the bike and dig your tires into the road which will temporarily give you more grip to compensate for the situation but the angle creates a cavity for the wind and causes up force that ultimately reduces traction. To be clear, I'm not against using disc wheels in high gusty winds... Crashes are exciting.

[@pierrex3226]

@@fergusdenoon1255 ha! That's above my pay grade, can't say you're wrong. That sensor makes sense to me because if the handlebars wobble less there, I wobble less, which is what they're comparing, but other than that...

[@thedronescene7474]

Lets ban disc wheel but allow disc brakes and also allow a bike position when your head is between the handlebars and you are just looking at the ground for 80% of the ride…….

[@dsonyay]

The stupidity of wearing a mask to stop a virus has trickled down to Kona banning a solid disk rear wheel lolol

[@jugaloo5873]

Roadies (a lot of) lack critical bike handling skills. Check out Gcn for suprising examples!!