Why Mormon Women (and Men!) Love Plastic Surgery | Ep. 1931

[@allin9631]

This is going to sound weird. I am 54 Mormon woman and I have had plastic surgery due to unspoken competition towards other women in the church. I can’t believe I said that out loud.

[@julierozum1737]

That's the most honest answer! Many women get plastic surgery because of what other women think...not men!

[@OhJustCommenting]

Hugs. Seems like a lot of pressure - i cant even imagine.

[@GonzoZener]

Whatever the reason it's still a private medical procedure. I have no trouble with women or men that have this procedure. I think the LDS belief about the deceased body being resurrected in a perfect eternal physical body and reunited with the deceased spirit has some influence in wanting to look good at all times. This is a desirable, hopeful belief to live forever, in a beautiful healthy perfect body. Nothing wrong with wanting to look good (cosmetically) or live as long as possible by use of modern medical procedures to improve human life. This is just part of living at this time. Who doesn't want to live forever in a perfect ageless body? Seems like a highly advanced mindset that is difficult to comprehend. Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

[@jow.2450]

Is it hard to have honest relationships with other women.

[@brianfolsen1919]

No tattoos because your body is a temple. But implanting foreign material into that temple for sex appeal is just fine.

[@vinnv4010]

Crazy that the most extreme body modifications, implanting foreign materials into your body, is accepted but blue/green hair and multiple ear piecings aren't.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes!

[@MiaDamiani]

Or caffeine!

[@Freaky0Nina]

It's all about what those old white man in leadership find attractive. "Wear a little lipstick"

[@boysrus61]

@@MiaDamianithat was my first thought. Synthetic material placed within the body ok, coffee made from natural ingredients bad. Makes NO sense.

[@elilass8410]

And saying that trans people mutilate their bodies! meanwhile mormon women get all these surgeries.

[@iamjustsaying1]

Male leaders telling women to "put on a little lipstick," "stop dressing like a man," "lose some weight," but not having written rules against enhancement surgeries (in contrast to rules against putting more than one hole in your ear) is a mixed, and inappropriate message that is simply men telling women what THEY like us to look like FOR THEM. Combine this with the need to compete for a small group of men in order to get married, (which is required for celestial glory), and I suppose we could have predicted all this.

[@yorgivon-schmourgeussborgi]

Someone needs to study the rate that men who are handsome and over 6ft get excommunicated. I was married to a mormon man and I know WAY too much.

[@IamTheMom]

Ex-mo mom of four here. To start I want to say that I am not anti plastic surgery if you need it, can afford it or just want it for yourself. ❤ The pressure to ”be perfect” in all ways is real. You are supposed to have as many kids as possible but not look like you did. Care for all the kids and be sleep deprived for years, but not look like you are. Be shiny and happy at home, at church, at school drop off and the grocery store and never be to tired for being ”gladfully willing” when your husband wants to be intimate even if you are so tired both mind and body, you live to give to everyone but yourself, so getting plastic surgery to look like a 20 year old only fans model might seem to be an option to at least look like you are fine, rested and the perfect woman and wife. I usually say that you fix the perfect outside to hide what you feel on the inside.

[@cc-hk5ih]

And all that must lead to so much mental health problems

[@brianfolsen1919]

Suicide rates are higher for sure.

[@IamTheMom]

@@cc-hk5ih yes! I heard a few years ago that Utah has one of the highest prescriptions of anti depressants for women in the US. Many of my mom friends here in Europe was/are om them too.

[@corasavage6849]

So, in essence, Mormon women are supposed to be the perfect Stepford Wife. Sounds like hell.

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

Your comment went right to my heart.

[@sandaroocompilations5182]

I grew up in Chicago. I felt way more pressure to be intelligent and hard working, over looking pretty. I was shocked at how much influence looks held when I went to BYU. I never heard of the words “kankles” or “FP-fat potential” until BYU. Most guys I dated asked me straight up if my mom was pretty or fat, or to see a picture of my mom. When I first met my future father-in-law, he was a stake president. The first time I ever spoke to him, and the conversation was only a few minutes, he asked me if my mom was skinny. The culture is rooted into women’s value depending on their looks.

[@MissMomo777]

That is... Disturbing... Wow... 😭 I'm so SO sorry...

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

I once overheard my dad tell my brother to marry someone skinny because they will only get bigger. This hurt because I was not super skinny. I lashed out with, “because that’s how it happened in your relationship.” -my mom is still slim and my dad has put on weight since their marriage. He got hurt, which translated to angry.

[@vaunniethayer1484]

Your father in law asked you if your mother was skinny? Very creepy!

[@soude85]

That’s unbelievably disgusting!😱😭

[@roseadiaz]

what is fp fat potential??

[@elisa-beary]

I’m stunned by the plastic surgery billboards!!! The one about renovating the temple is shocking to me…🤯😳

[@JustThinking-k8o]

That one was hilarious. I know the surgeon and he is just a funny man and did that tongue in cheek. We need to laugh a little more. He has a podcast called “the naked patient” which is really cool. Lots of women sharing their “why”. It has helped me have a better understanding of many positive reasons people do cosmetic surgery.

[@rebeccacall7348]

Maybe it's because of my twisted military humor, but I burst out laughing at these billboards.

[@anitah2404]

I cannot imagine a mother sending her daughter a message that she won’t be able to find a great husband without bigger breasts. That sets her up for a lifetime of self-consciousness. Her body will change with pregnancies and there may be health complications from cosmetic surgery. Utah culture is bonkers!

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

I maybe the minority but I’d rather have a natural a cup than fake d’s.

[@dbottar2209]

I visited SLC in the late 90s as a 25-year-old. I couldn't get over how nearly every family I saw looked the same. Predominantly blonde, lots of kids, always dressed neatly. No one was overweight. It felt like a Stepford world.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Yes! Stepford Wives is a good comparison.

[@robertsaladino]

What's a Stepford ?

[@yvettescheiman4991]

​​@@robertsaladinoThe Stepford Wives is an old movie about female perfection and it's horrible consequences. It's really good!

[@olafervin]

I joined the church when I was 23 and left about a year ago. My 25 years in mormonism left me with the impression that mormon men in particular are perfectly comfortable profiting in legal but unethical industries. Elective cosmetic surgery would seem to follow this pattern.

[@sheliabryant3997]

@olafervin. Two Hundred Billion "AMENs".

[@scotttiner4981]

I live in California. There are nearly zero ads on tv or billboards around here promoting plastic surgery. When i go to Utah to visit family I'm always shocked by all the billboards and commercials.

[@spookymicah3131]

I think it’s “interesting” that the church is ok with cosmetic gender affirming surgeries for CIS people but not Trans people.

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Interesting indeed. My child was born XXY (Kleinfelters) in Utah 15 yrs ago (when it was unheard of) At 18 yrs old we continued what they felt they should do. I lost everything siding with my kid who went thru hell! We came back to Utah and she has been judged, juried, tried & hung. A variance of their perfection and mormons turn on you. My huge mormon family has had face lifts, tummy tucks, Lipo, gastro, hair transplants, breast augment but god forbid the umbrella of trans

[@Bunchoeves]

​@@Mrs.RobinsonsI asked my family members who are church members how they explain that there are only 2 genders and God doesn't make mistakes and gender is part of an eternal identity when you have people like your child. People whose actual DNA makes determining their gender difficult, or people who have male DNA but because of a condition, they don't respond to testosterone and so look like a woman. How do these people fit in? There is absolutely no choice involved, there is nothing they have done to deserve this issue. Of course, my husband just said, "I'm glad I don't have to figure it out" but should we not use our intellect to THINK about things that don't ring true in the church?????

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

@@Bunchoeves mormon church? lol, Not necessary. I was a temple mormon in Utah for years. I came out of it before my kid was hospitalized with internal& external tumors at 18 yrs. Remembering this religion & Utah aren't even 200 yrs old there is little known in advanced medicine amongst any of it. In the hospital with tumors a doctor from Sweden identified XXY (Kleinfelters) my kid, leaving many scratching their heads. We left the state & CULT-ture so as to undergo advanced treatment mental & physical. But I had to pay cash along the way. The doctor diagnosing an intersex condition was not in Utah. In the hospital I did a lot of research. The USA is so far behind & Utah even further (stone ages) There is not just XX or XY but LD$ needs to check a box. Its their own demise as thousands of progressive people are leaving that religion. Nothing for many rings true!! But to criticize a gender is like what they did/do in Africa who execute & punish those born Albino- which is barbaric & inhumane! There is nothing wrong with them.

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

@@Bunchoeves The mormon church? not necessary. Thousands are leaving. I came out of it long before my kid's situation. None of it is truth. I speak out for others, I know. Like switching left & right handed gloves then trying to work. Take the gloves off !!!

[@carolfoster1936]

​@rubytuesday1316 -So sad they are such hypocrites!!!

[@MissMomo777]

We may get to this point in the video, but it always felt like "the more righteous you are, the more beautiful you are" and when you find yourself "less than perfect" then women seek a way to "make them beautiful", therefore more righteous....

[@subocguy]

As an evolutionary biologist, I’d like to interject an idea about Mormon women and breast enhancement while wearing that hat. When choosing a mate, in most species, the female is the choosier sex because she has fewer gametes, has to carry the pregnancy to term, provide nurturing and care-she has more to lose, and the male is the less choosy sex because he has billions of gametes (sperm) and doesn’t invest as much biologically or energetically in each offspring as does the female. This is why male birds and male reptiles are usually the more colorful and gaudier, more ornamented sex. Hunter gatherer groups even resembled this structure somewhat. Mormonism completely turns that dynamic on its head because it’s so patriarchal; i.e. returned missionaries are told they can have their choice of wives (hottest) and women are told to only marry returned missionaries. The male gets to be the choosier sex, in this case. High ornamental (breast) enhancement is a natural outcome of that. This has been a thing in Western society since agriculture created wealth and made women as property. But Mormonism turns this trait up to 11 on a 10 scale.

[@lisedale6767]

Interesting

[@annjacobs1298]

All of this makes sense. Men just need a Y chromosome to get into heaven. Women have to get married to get into heaven and are expected to have lots of children all while not having their bodies change from multiple back-to-back births. In order to keep your husband after having a large number of children, a mommy makeover is needed to keep your husband from leaving and looking a certain way will keep your family together. It's the burden of keeping your family together and eternity tied to how you look that makes plastic surgery so enticing.

[@mekareed895]

But what if you have a bunch of children? Do you get a mommy makeover in between each child or every couple of children? If so, there must be so much scar tissue which would be damaging to the physical appearance.

[@annjacobs1298]

@@mekareed895 Typically the makeover happens after the last kid bc doing those procedures after every kid would be like eating oreos and trying to brush your teeth at the same time , so it's at the end when the factory is closed and weight is stable. Tummy tucks don't require a repeat unless significant amounts of weight is regained. Breast augmentation or breast lifts have to be repeated bc implants have a 10 to 15 year lifespan.

[@StefanTaf]

well said

[@Jayjays964]

What a great panel of women! Thanks to each one of them for their voice and John for putting it together. 👏

[@jacobhholt]

The modern contemporary gilded age of Mormonism: high prosperity, high moral characteristics, deeply privileged, almost a bourgeois aspect of living.

[@itswoozles9672]

growing up in utah as a mormon girl with big boobs even as a teen, it really blows my mind that it was considered desirable because i would just always get in trouble for bringing on "wrong male attention" towards myself. i couldn't wear anything without my boobs being an issue for either my mother or the other women in my ward. i couldn't even wear a normal t shirt without getting in trouble because my boobs would pull the fabric in what they considered an enticing way. maybe it was born out of jealousy now that i'm learning how many mormon women are having sirgery to get what i already had, but it still caused me some issues. i left mentally at 12/13, officially stopped going to church at 18, and now i'm 29 and just starting to get over the harm that did to my self-image.

[@belzeebubbubbachunks]

I was always jealous of the Itty bitties. Grew up in CO where being fit is generally attractive, not just slim itself. You can't wear anything, I swear.

[@MissMomo777]

I very clearly remember one of my seminary teachers telling me that he "landed" his hot wife because he was a very righteous missionary... So not only do we (women) need to be attractive just "because" but because we want the most righteous men ... because that's what "he deserves" or "he earned that"

[@MissMomo777]

Commenting to add that I posted this before they talked about it 😅

[@nicoleharalson4929]

Exactly.

[@ChandraHiggins-g2i]

I know that this video is about Utah and cosmetic procedures there but I'm also hearing a lot of general stereotypes about the church culture in general. I lived in Utah for the first 3 years of my marriage until moving to WA state. I can tell you that this "perfectionism" you see is really only that extreme in Utah. I'm so glad we moved away because I probably would have fallen captive to the idea of looking perfect just like everyone else. Here in Seattle I can just be me and go to the grocery store without my makeup on, sweatpants and no bra! And I do!

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

This highlights the impossible standard women, and LDS women specifically, are held to.

[@jigsaw4253]

Maybe it seems that way to you because ur unattractive. Ur talking from personal experience.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

Ironically it’s the women that place this pressure on themselves. But some how in this misandrist anti Mormon culture men are blamed for everything. The sisterhood approval reins supreme over a man’s approval. Want to test this. Just simply watch a newly engaged woman show case her ring to her female friends. She shows it off like she’s rubbing it in their faces. It’s disgusting actually. Be humbled just being happy someone picked you not trying to outdo the other woman

[@BG-ig6fd]

I’m in the midwest region of Canada and most women here rarely even wear make up. When they do for special occasions, it’s so light it’s barely noticeable. When I see women on the different former LDS channels and episodes (not this one), I am often struck by the difference…..a lot of make-up, fake eyelashes, pumped up lips, drawn on eyebrows, perfectly done hair, etc…. Is this the current trend all over the USA? Maybe so. Anyway, I’m not a fan. For me, it feels like just another symptom of objectifying women.

[@merricat3025]

No, it's not all over the US.

[@Sarahwithanh444]

Growing up mormon in New Zealand, I would say plastic surgery amongst mormon women is incredibly rare. There’s still pressure to look good, but certainly not to the extent it appears to be in Utah. New Zealanders in general are very down to earth and body positive. Part of that may be due to the high pacific island population and the differences in beauty standards, where curvy is seen as more attractive and beautiful.

[@maryanne2772]

I love Canada, and I've lived in three different provinces, for various reasons over the years. I consider myself part Canadian, and I have good reasons for that. I absolutely fit in better there than here in the USA. 🇨🇦

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

I’m a midwest girl (woman) and had a similar response to women on the east coast. I felt like the cast of Jersey Shore came to my cousin’s wedding. I made a comment to my aunt and had to backpedal quickly. I have to check my bias-or at least my frame of reference. They dressed to the 9s and were having fun. Nothing wrong with that. People shouldn’t be defined by their style choices and or gender expression.

[@ilovepotatoesforever9818]

Hidden True Crime: Lauren

[@GoldBerryTarot]

I went to an Olympus 11th singles ward event when I was in my early 20’s and many of the well to do singles there were getting cosmetic surgeries. At a single mingle, one of the girls who just got a boob job asked me and my male BF to touch her new breasts 😂 Will never forget that moment or my shock. I declined. Yikes! I guess it didn’t feel like it was a part of her. I think the rules for rich members are far different than the rules for the “humble”

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

mormons dont know humble! They do understand sex, greed, Money, control & power

[@ifuknewhatiknew]

I'm a non-Mo, but grew up in Utah in a big mormon family. I was baptized, but removed my name a few years ago. Love Mormon Stories!! Anyway, I feel like I still have the "Utah" look. (Blonde hair, blue eyes) Had plastic surgery (boobs) then had it reversed. Wish I'd never done it in the first place. There is so much pressure to look beautiful, thin and perfect, and I suspect it's more prevalent in Utah. I'm almost 60 now, still use botox and color my hair. It's so hard to be a woman! Thanks for the great episode!

[@thatcat8442]

As a Never Mo - there is definitely a Mormon look. It may be more obvious to us, than the average saint

[@Chococatania]

@@thatcat8442 it is also obvious to the less traditional Mormon - who grows up in a “part member” family outside of utah

[@savyjett]

Yeah, its a bit aryan in utah.

[@therealchupacabra]

When you leave Utah, the look is blaringly obvious

[@Mrs.Robinsons]

Good Ol Brigham came to UT with his brethren and each took on many girls who had many babies and continue to do so. Of course UT population of "fair skin pleasing unto god" is the norm outside of metro SLC UT That CULT-ture isnt even 200 yrs old. They killed anyone trying to come in (Mt meadows massacre) & natives

[@azik7571]

I joined the church as a 18 year old in Australia and was so surprised to hear Holland’s talk. Later I moved to Utah and saw all the billboards and realized the context of his talk.

[@mara62634]

it’s “gender affirming care” when cis people want/get it too but we aren’t ready for that convo

[@MGom1963]

One other reason I think the brethren don’t have a stance/policy on this issue is because the ones who get it are wealthy! They don’t want to alienate rich tithe payers.

[@RainAngel111]

I think the main problem for me with all of the statements from the apostles and prophets you showed, is all I am hearing is "try harder" "you're vain". They acknowledge the pressure and then pile on a bunch more. You have to be beautiful but not too beautiful and you need to put work into your appearance but not too much because then you're vain and you MUST get married but you must also not pay attention to men. It's just more and more judgement and impossible standards.

[@patshartigan5100]

The Mormon tightrope.

[@mariamg890]

1:05:54 Mormon leaders allow plastic surgery for the simple reason that their women go on these surgeries. If you see general conference you can notice it. Sisters Nelson and Oaks are clear samples of this (at least a lot of botox). While here, in Latin America, we are taught that cosmetic surgery is attempting against your temple (your body). Now I see that rules in the Church apply differently in the States than the rest of the world.

[@enishalihoward8119]

Bull nonsense Latin America is the Mecca of surgery 😂

[@cindysutherland8554]

I've been inactive for 7+ years and I did not react to the Holland talk the same way as these women. Once they pointed out the issues, I understood the concerns! Makes me realize how ingrained my "Mormon Brain" is that I didn't see the issues with his statements.

[@Grandma_HoneyVA]

I am formally lds in VA, and a member of our high council was a plastic surgeon who performed my breast reduction and tummy tuck. Our stake had a very high rate of plastic surgery.

[@natalies4375]

Stake president is a plastic surgeon. Kinda weird. Slightly creepy or n maybe I’m thinking into it too much.

[@brandeberryb84]

Living in Utah for a few years. Even as dated as the styles are the vanity is inane! Tortilla top nails. The high hair!

[@fmfm9846]

And what about Mormon beliefs on men's "perfection" standards physically? And why aren't they under the same pressure to modify or enlarge their organs? Because they are less visible?

[@thenopedetective]

Because it's about women serving men, not vice versa.

[@fmfm9846]

@@thenopedetective yep.

[@annjacobs1298]

The ugliest man can get a woman into heaven, so a man's Y chromosome is all he needs to find a woman and he gets to be more choosey about who he gets to marry.

[@enishalihoward8119]

Their 🍆 are TINY 😂

[@aimeefriedman822]

I've noticed this also. For people to be so-called, soooo religious, but be obsessed with looks and sx is something I've heard often, in the past few years. In particular, I've heard a lot of conversation regarding Lori Valor's mom. So this is interesting.

[@leesacoles9154]

I think the shame is a huge problem.

[@victoria-annthompson7780]

When I was growing up, I wanted to be a 10 cow wife. That bred unhealthy perfectionism.

[@madelinejeanhibbert2413]

Omg, i forgot about the ten cow wife 😂 😅

[@Jayjays964]

Canadian girl here- every time I go to Utah I say, “I’ve never seen so many beautiful women in one place!” A stark contrast if you go to the Church History building and see the pic on the wall of the polygamist women. They were so obviously neglected, worn out under the strictures of Brigham Young it showed in their entire face.

[@elisa-beary]

I think when women are indoctrinated from birth that their highest purpose is finding a husband & becoming a wife & mom making sure you’re going to find a righteous, high quality man becomes an obsession. We’ve seen so many women that have journaled about when they’ll find their husbands from SUCH young ages, always feeling behind. I think surgery & making yourself as ‘perfect’ as you can possibly be, especially when you see so many going that route is inevitable. It’s unfortunate & as for Christianity it’s driven home there that ONLY God is perfect & we will never achieve perfection. We’ll spend our lives trying to be the best we can but perfection will always be out of reach. A stark contrast from the messaging Mormons seem to internalize.

[@GonzoZener]

@@elisa-beary then the perfect expectation bubble burst at some point that is when the gut check begins.

[@Aelffwynn]

Mormon men are told that, the more worthy they are, the "hotter" their wife will be.

[@mellisagreen7801]

I agree. No one can be perfect in an imperfect world.

[@annefrost4945]

I’ve made it to the point in the show when they talk about the gender imbalance causing women to be more likely to be viewed as sex objects and the issues of competition with other women to be viewed as the perfect wife after marriage. And I’d just like to throw out there that not only are Mormon women competing with their fellow single sisters and then comparing themselves to the “perfect” women around them, but they also live under the shadow of the threat that their righteous husbands will be given more wives in the celestial kingdom. It’s not enough to hold the burden of competition here in this life. They are also competing against imaginary righteous women in need of a husband for eternity. The competition NEVER ENDS. You MUST be perfect always at all times including eternity, if you’re going to be able to keep your husband’s attention. Always and forever. ALWAYS. And FOREVER.

[@jauntydamemusic]

100%!

[@Desertsilence]

Yes! I came from a Mormon fundamentalist /polygamist background and it makes it even worse there. Women are so overly doting on their king baby husbands that the men never grow up, don’t have to have any emotional intelligence nor empathy for their wives and children, they always have another home/wife to go to (or the threat of a new wife). It breeds the absolute most toxic level of BIG man little woman syndrome. The man can do no wrong because the women are so starved for connection, care, help, love. How can a man actually be good when competing wives come up with such brilliant and extensive compliments of their husbands. The men accidentally start thinking they ARE THAT rather than using some introspection to see themselves as the stunted Peter Pan that they are. Further, both men and women support this. I wasn’t allowed to call my husband out because he was my “priesthood head” his word was as god’s word and all he’d have to do is “innocently mention” it to his mom and she’d pass it to the whole community. It’s abhorrent! Both men and women work hard to keep women oppressed.

[@coletteduff2762]

I can see the link between porn and surgery. A woman who feels like they might not be good enough for her husband, such that they 'need porn' might feel they have to change their body to help their husband give up porn. After all they rely on them to get into heaven.

[@rebeccacall7348]

I don't know if anyone else grew up watching those Living Scriptures cartoons every Sunday, but one thing I noticed, even as a kid, was that the "righteous" characters were usually good-looking while the "evil or less obedient" characters were more homely, sometimes even grotesque.

[@Sadepj2006]

There does seem to be a pressure to appear attractive in the church. I was raised Mormon and it was hard for me growing up with my body that wasn't perfect. I thought god cursed me. Why wouldn't heal me? He heals those who deserve it. Such painful memories. If I could afford to have my breasts done it would be for comfort. Heavy, sagging, uneven breasts are uncomfortable and hard to dress. Swimsuits have always been depressing. I've always had nightmares of there being a fire in the middle of the night, and I can't get my bra on before getting out of the house. I just want to look normal with a shirt on. People underestimate the stress you can feel when your body doesn't fit cultural norms.

[@theHearandNow]

I remember the first time I had a layover on my flight in SLC. I sat and felt like I was in a Stepford pod. I just sat and watched the vast number of people who showed very obvious signs of plastic surgery. Can we also mention the fact that allot of professional males get plastic surgery as well.

[@nicolevandelden1406]

I was raised super Protestant, private Christian school, praying at least 4 times a day (each meal and before bed). Church 2-4 times a week. The “be perfect” quote was never emphasized. I also think you guys kind of took it out of context. The chapter was about showing love to people who are your enemies or aren’t your neighbours…. Not a quality I connect with Mormonism. In fact it was stressed that we were born sinful and couldn’t be perfect, that’s why Jesus needed to die, to atone for our sins.

[@jlcl96]

You’re probably right that it got taken out of context. The “be perfect” part is definitely emphasized in LDS church. Plus, it’s repeated in the Book of Mormon and talked about more there. We were constantly taught that perfection was the goal and Christ would only make up what we lacked if we were always doing the very best we could. The phrase “after all you can do” came up a lot. We also misinterpreted that. I’m glad your upbringing was less stressful in that regard. Interestingly, we were taught that we were not born sinful because God didn’t hold us accountable for Adam and Eve’s transgression, but there were so many rules and expectations, you could never really keep up with them. I was honestly as good as I knew how to be-kind to everyone, read scripture daily, prayed several times a day, served in the church, got married, raised my children to be faithful, never violated the Word of Wisdom (health code), tried to be like Jesus all the time-and I still felt like a failure most of the time. Maybe it’s hard to hold onto the atonement with so much pressure to basically save yourself through righteousness all the time.

[@cantaloupekitty3439]

I’m so glad you guys talked about this topic. One of the main reasons I left the church was because going every Sunday was a chore. I wanted to go just to feel the spirit, but I HAD to be dressed to the nines. Also growing up my dad almost never came with us to church and for my mom that was a stress because they KNEW when you’re husband wasn’t coming to church and she was treated lesser than the rest.

[@martah5369]

I have a theory that different religious groups do modesty with or without explicit femininity. In the Lutheran (outside of U.S) church where I grew up, being overly feminine was not really accepted. Modesty was less about what you would show than about not wearing too girly extravagant things. I've met muslim women who are very ok with pink, bows, laces, make-up etc, as long as coverage was right, which first seemed ridiculous to me. Some groups do both kinds (no flare + covered) but I think many do more one than the other.

[@kittiemarie1235]

Many Mormon women are in competition with each other to look the best. It’s one of the only things they CAN do. It’s a silent sort of competition, but it is very weird and more common. Not all of them do this, but many of them participate. Mid-30’s - about 45 is the typical age you see this.

[@PennyLyon]

To this Christian girl, the quote, "Be ye therefore perfect, " is a PRONOUNCEMENT of freedom, of Grace... Christ did the work, and we are, therefore, free of the burden to perfect ourselves. HE HAS DONE IT. GOD will see us clothed in Christ, and, therefore perfected.

[@lk3667]

Great conversation, as always. Thank you Mormon Stories. I would have liked to hear more discussion of the huge role that class and status play, and about the profit-motive for the practioners. It behooves us all to educate ourselves and our families to the insidious nature of commercialization. As to status, here in the midwest, I experienced the scrutiny of higher status women when my husband took part in yacht racing. Although I was a healthy, fit young mother, I was painfully aware that I wasn't thin enough, tan enough, nor did I wear the right clothing, whenever I attended social events around the Chicago to Mac races. My appearance alone said that I was "common" and not one of them. I was aware, but I didn't let it affect me, and went on to do my own thing without all that peer pressure. One more thing - Mormon parents, what are you teaching your sons to value in a woman?? Seriously. Let's start there.

[@CristenRieben-qc6zq]

Such an important conversation And can we just open our eyes a bit further for a second and realize that cosmetic surgery is a business… built by men, for men. Men are benefiting the most financially and fantastically from women altering their naturally beautiful bodies. Also I’m hoping that in the future we can be more careful about the general uses of the words “beautiful” and “attractive”. The ideas behind those words are socially constructed and vary between time periods and cultures. They point to what others think about us when they see us rather than what we believe to be true about ourselves. These women have said so many important things in this podcast and I’m hoping we can move towards being careful not to perpetuate competitiveness between one another through the unnecessary use of cosmetic surgery. Let’s not allow men to make the rules, especially when it comes to how we view ourselves and our sisters!

[@StephanieMartinez-hn8oi]

Why was there so much beating around the bush of how monetarily the church benefits from plastic surgery? Its so incredibly lucrative for them that one of the reasons they okay it!

[@TheWanderingHeretic]

By the way, I learned so much from all three panelists here! Getting Celeste involved here was brilliant and I want to see more of her!

[@Paradisefalls65]

Any episode with Celeste is a hit for me. Love her!

[@smallmeadow1]

The big question I don't hear anyone asking or addressing is why are there so many fewer Mormon men? Are they leaving the Church?

[@lexiwalker1537]

My mom would cover the mirrors growing up because I was apparently looking in the mirror too long and the only reason we had mirrors was to get ready for church. When my non Mormon friend had a body length mirror in her room I was so excited and shocked because I always wanted one to try on different outfits. My mom always called me vain anytime she saw me look in a mirror even if I was fixing a lash that got in my eye or if my mascara was running and trying to fix it. I never heard that plastic surgery was a Mormon thing for a long time and when someone from my ward said that I was like that’s not true they aren’t Mormon there’s no way. It took me so long to realize that it’s an Utah thing. I also grew up in Texas and only had ever visited Utah but my mom would always condemn plastic surgery that it’s so vain and my sister agreed and I feel my sister looks more of what a traditional Mormon woman would be. No surgery, looks average and told to not look “too good”. I think it’s wild to me that my mom just told me she got a tummy tuck last year, I don’t care I’ve gotten injectables and I’ve never really thought it was bad I was just shamed for it, but she apparently got it 2 years ago and still has tried to keep it hush hush.

[@radicalkelly59]

I know quite a few staunch LDS women who have tattooed eyebrows. I guess that's allowed.

[@silviayanes5128]

Holly Molly this for some reason reminds me of this lady that toll his son that was not married yet to be careful who he date because she did not want his son to marry a left over wife 😮 I heard that and couldn’t believe it!… this was in a Thanksgiving dinner at a Mormon church by a really devoted lady 😮😮😮

[@mekareed895]

A left over wife? What's that?

[@WildernessPoint]

Interesting that all of THESE women are beautiful.

[@bonmamartine5178]

Yes Julie! I wondered when the number of pregnancies and close pregnancies at that, at young ages was going to come up as a justification for mommy makeovers. I’ve not had a mommy makeover-I just turned 70!-but I get that young moms today have access to procedures that were not available 40 years ago except to the very wealthy. And they workout and want a body that reflects that their efforts. Like you I was married at 20 and had my fist baby at 20, actually. By 30 most Mormon moms have had three, four and even five babies, with little time for their bodies to recover between pregnancies. I had my third by the time I was 24 1/2. They were all live births but we lost our first at 4 months. My sister in law had her sixth four months before her 29th birthday.

[@leesacoles9154]

I saw a billboard saying a dad bod makeover is such and such a price. 😆 Dad’s body’s don’t go thru 💩 so why do they need a dad bod makeover?! 🙄🙄🙄

[@kissykay07]

I noticed this on the 2nd of July! On the right hand side of I-15 between Salt Lake and Bountiful. The price point if I remember correctly was $6995.

[@cosmofansonly]

Most likely from South Park

[@danieljohncarey7917]

After my mission, I had a Mormon girlfriend whose Mormon father told her "Don't let your honey ever see you without makeup." I thought that was rude and cruel. The guy always looked like his hair had a ton of spray in it. Also, they kept the plastic on their furniture, and the plastic runner across the living room in place. Don't walk on the carpeting - except Sunday evenings, when you can be in your socks and gather around the piano to sing hymns.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

😯

[@vaunniethayer1484]

Yikes!

[@MRuby-qb9bd]

I noticed the improved website, they did a good job on the update

[@aBrewster29]

Julie’s comment about Holland’s remarks completely ignoring the role of men was spot on. That said, I feel like he was trying to lay out directional principles without imposing artificial boundaries. If the Church used that approach broadly, it would enable conversations needed to restore balance to the runaway orthodoxy that characterizes the Church.

[@jlcl96]

Every member of the Quorum of the 12 or First Presidency I’ve seen in the last several years has clearly had their teeth whitened or has veneers. So someone is convincing them to make some cosmetic adjustments.

[@michelleadams1078]

Would love to have seen a cast of diverse women, especially those from different races. The beauty standards that women of color face within the church hits a little differently especially due to having features and body shapes that do not fit the traditional modest and beauty standards within the church.

[@realsouthernliving]

So much of the focus on what you look like within Mormon culture is trying to fit in and conforming. Keeping up with the Jones’ is a big deal and FOMO. It determines social status and class you get sorted into within each ward. Having your family all dressed perfectly and sitting in a pew was the first form of social media pressure before it even existed. When I was a kid all little girls had to have ruffle socks and French braids. So much emphasis is placed on conforming to what is deemed as acceptable in that area. It leaves very little opportunity for self expression and differentiation when you’re trying to feel accepted in the Mormon community.

[@yvettescheiman4991]

Not a Mormon, but I feel I have to add one more fact that I don't see anyone addressing either in the comments or in the actual video, unless I missed it: the risk. Women (and men) have actually DIED undergoing routine surgery, cosmetic or otherwise, and if I were living on an island with no men but just my friends, WHY would I undergo any surgery to "improve" any part of me? It's ALL risky. If I'm healthy and active that should be all that matters. I think women who claim it's only for themselves should put themselves in that scenario and see if they would STILL feel the need to undergo a risky and painful procedure if there were no men around. Unless maybe they fear the judgement of other women...🤔

[@brandeberryb84]

Plastic surgeon’s in Utah are often Mormon. They want business

[@bombadillo2]

I'm a little confused by all the talk of "be ye therefore perfect." And all my life is a Mormon no one I met ever interpreted that as a physical standard of perfection. Quite the opposite, actually. It was all about sin and righteousness. To me the answer here is obvious; Utah holds the biggest patriarchy in the United States, on top of that no one is allowed to have sex before they get married so women feel like they need to have enough sexual appeal that a man will marry them (because the men in Utah are judging based on appearance, and the only way to feel out that sexual chemistry with such restrictions on physicality is by being attracted just by looking at someone), plus the history of polygamy, and competing with other wives for your husband's attention. All of this is based in patriarchy and Mormon history. I really don't think it has anything to do with doctrine or scriptures.

[@townsendv58]

I had some moles on my face removed when I got to 40. I felt better about myself afterwards. The pressure on women to get married asap is wrong. I had this crap. I used to hit the roof with church members who said this to me. I made several trips to Europe on business, all that was said was "you never knowyou might meet someone". Luckily i got out whikst single.

[@roseadiaz]

I really resonated with Alyssa talking about wanting to be natural and not wearing makeup because it’s Christlike. For a long time I refused to wear makeup, eyelashes, or hair extensions because I thought it was sinful and deceitful to not be my natural God-given self. It was hard to get over that guilt of being “vain” and “fake”

[@catchmeintherye2102]

Hannah Neeleman is beautiful, but she has also had plastic surgery. Blepharoplasty, veneers, lip modification.

[@braddayton]

Why the BUT?

[@KRMello]

Sometime while watching this episode I remembered the Sons of Provo song "Sweet Spirit" and realized how fucked up it was. Worse part we all sang it and even called out girls who were "sweet spirits" while at BYU. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@bvp121]

I’m a never Mormon hairstylist from So. IL and I just have to say that Utah/Mormon beauty culture has a CRAZY influence on the beauty industry as a whole. My boss lived and worked in a SLC salon for a while before moving back to So. IL. Especially with extensions and that blonde and “expensive brunette” look, there’s a giant Utah influence. Everyone kind of starts to look the same after a few years in the industry.

[@ARKwan-jw2ys]

This episode is epic. THANK YOU FOR EXPLORING THIS!!!

[@tamicarper2886]

I think as a non mormon. That the mormon church wont speak out against plastic surgery because as you said a lot of Drs want to stay close to home and can make a lot of money $$$ in plastics, more $$$ made more tithing !!!

[@CarlafromGermantown]

All I know is that Donny Osmond looks FABULOUS‼️

[@SarahBarbara1]

😂 fair enough!

[@terryberwick760]

Laughing right now

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

😂

[@boysrus61]

Botox?

[@cc-hk5ih]

Marie Osmond looks almost unrecognisable.She was fat shamed doing the Donny and Marie show and got eating disorders as a result. So sad that young girls so beautiful as they are should be subject to these pressures. Donny looks OK but I feel that despite his obvious dedication to his religion and his clean living he wants to keep looking young and still appeal to and get adulation from women. Aging gracefully doesn't seem to figure. So sad. Non Mormon here and looking at my society in general I'm seeing a generation here that are similar to the utah look blonde big busts lips thin so it's not necessarily a Mormon thing with even my G.P. offering botox. It's good to look after yourself your skin your body but cloning yourself with surgery to conform is so sad. CC

[@leesacoles9154]

I don’t think God cares about what we look like or what we wear and especially what kind of underwear we wear. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@thenopedetective]

The Bible seems to recommend against linen and wool blends, yet you never hear about that.

[@horstbendzulla6425]

I just love your comment it is so real. You can see it any better.

[@carolatchley3797]

Many years ago my then 12 or 13 year old son was talking about his priesthood lesson when we were on the way home from church. The teacher had said "The better you do on your mission, the hotter your wife will be." My son then proceeded to tell us that his response was, "well, then why didn't my dad get a hot wife?" My son had no filter which I understood, but it still hurt.

[@Pareyy]

It’s sooo painful for me to hear what Mormon women go through! BDD is so painful!

[@sharonrees301]

Creepy. Deffinately a cult.

[@cathyriley5735]

I think there is another component. Plastic surgery makes a lot of money and is a medical profession that has less overtime, hospital rounds, etc. From a family perspective it is easier to have family life in this specialty. This makes it attractive as a specialty. When there is competition, prices go down. It also leads to advertising. As far as breast augmentation, women and men may get used to larger breasts during pregnancy and breast feeding and may want to maintain the size once child bearing is over.

[@CristenRieben-qc6zq]

Sure… but why do some men and women want to maintain that size after breastfeeding is done?

[@bernicebrown2527]

The sister missionaries are always dressing so dowdy and are recognised immediately. The men look good and the girls stick out like sore thumbs.

[@jlcl96]

It’s their dumb dress codes. If you look up the pictures the sisters are given as an example before buying their mission clothes, you will see it. A girl would have to be extremely stylish naturally to pull it off and not look matronly at the rip age of 19.

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

The laughter during the elder talks (timing and volume) felt strange to me. I’m not and have never been LDS, so I could be missing something culturally.

[@xochitlkitty]

It disturbed me too- very noticeable. I’m also never- Mormon.

[@courtneyfetterman5193]

Mostly it’s usually so boring at those kinds of things that it’s surprising if they actually say something funny.

[@vaunniethayer1484]

There are many parallels to women everywhere however I get the impression it is more extreme for Mormon women of all ages. I see a real double bind situation in look perfect but don’t be vain and selfish. We make choices but again there are many factors outside of ourselves that influence those choices. I am 70 now and have been invisible to men for quite sometime. I find it freeing. I can just be myself and don’t have to factor in any romantic complications. I find Keeping up appearances at a high level expensive and exhausting. I would much rather spend my time and money focused on other things that give me greater joy. But I say live and let live. Do what makes you happy. Wonderful discussions. Thanks.

[@lizRomrell]

Omg! I have a therapist at the Wasatch family Lehi location and I absolutely adore her! She is amazing amazing fit for my needs!

[@morjana679]

I'm not religious and used to think religious folks think since God creates all of them it means they're all beautiful. This mormon plastic surgery think probably makes no sense even for other religious people

[@TheeOldest]

Grew up as a female in the Morridor and felt like appearance always beat out substance.

[@vanessaroque4476]

When it comes to Christianity and scriptures, for the most part, yes, we all have the "same Bible" and scripture reference but the difference lies within our teachings. In my experience, Matthew 5:48 isn't at all related to physical perfection but spiritual character of whom Jesus is and represents. I was always taught to read the scriptures above and below the one we are focusing on for context clues and then to look at Greek and Hebrew interpretation along with concordance scriptures to get a full picture of scripture meaning so this may explain why some Christians don't take "Therefore you shall be perfect..." literally meaning physical body perfection.

[@susyhall9406]

They did make the point that Christ was saying perfect in love. I think it’s the toxic programming and culture within the Mormon church that twists this into something else completely. Man definitely gets in his own way 😞

[@maddiemalacopa]

I liked the comments about cosmetic procedures being a key to social status. I’ve never been Mormon, and I’m old for a woman who’s never have been married, I’m poor, I don’t have a respected job, I’m average looking, and I don’t have family so I feel like cosmetic procedures are a survival necessity. I worry a lot about not being able to afford cosmetic procedures bc I know that’s so important to any shot at having a slightly better life. Also I laughed at the comment that women should just put on lipstick bc cis heterosexual men have no idea how much goes into beauty. I’ve had several men on dating apps message me about on how they like that I look natural and how they hate lashes/ nails/ cosmetic surgery when I actually do nail extensions, glue on my lashes, have tattoo freckles, lip filler, dye my hair, and love doing makeup up. Lol. They just don’t even recognize most beauty stuff or know what it is or what goes into it.

[@mollytaylor2122]

Do Mormon men also have statistically unusual relationships with body self-image, or not?

[@kimberlythomas4373]

Not so much.

[@Notmep]

Nah, look at Chad Daybell type dude, they get their own planets and the priesthood no matter how they look

[@maryanne2772]

From my experience - especially recent experience with many men in an addiction treatment setting, the men have just as many issues as women. The body dysmorphia among the particular population I have worked with, is alarming. It is cool to see these men address it in a mental health setting.

[@texasjelly4002]

When I was 18-19 living in Salt Lake after converting to the church. Every single LDS guy I dated told me to lose weight, and that I was really, really fat. I was a size 6-8. I still have severe issues and am saving for plastic surgery, even with a loving non-LDS husband.

[@glee_again2594]

Ugh. Sorry to hear this. :/ I’m not Mormon. But hate hearing this.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

To quote the work of Heather J. Gay: Life is short. Buy the lips.

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

Just a banger of a billboard not commenting on whether you should or shouldn’t buy THE lips, the very ones

[@lyslikeswords]

@@ZelphOntheShelfthou shalt not put any other lips before those ones!

[@ZelphOntheShelf]

@@lyslikeswordsso well said 🩷🩷

[@kissykay07]

Ugh, this billboard is so damn close to my house.

[@monus782]

I’ve heard that in places like South Korea plastic surgery is pretty popular, sometimes even given as a graduation gift but I imagine it’s for different reasons than in Utah. Again as a non-Mormon I had no idea about this until I started going to ex-Mormon pages so once again thank you for this episode.

[@daverichards308]

I always thought that The Stepford Wives was based on LDS women in SLC and Provo. Now in one of the wards I used to go to, one of the brethren who was in his 60s was released from his calling and had had many until the magic age of 60. He was good friends with the Bishop who said that the ward needed younger leadership. He got plastic surgery, looked at least 10 years younger and in a couple of months was called to a higher position in the ward. He said it was worth it. In another branch I attended, anyone over 70 ended up being either a Primary teacher, or Sunday School teacher. Could it also not be an age thing?

[@MultiPetercool]

A never Mormon here. I had many close Mormon friends in High School. My family was visited by a pair of Missionaries and we even attended a meeting at the local Ward. I noticed that the less attractive Mormons were less affluent. While that is also true of the general population as well, It seemed more pronounced among the Mormons. FWIW.

[@mielimedina3146]

Tattoos and piercings generally serve the purpose of expressing individuality… cosmetic surgery generally serves the purpose of molding your body to fit a standard. Generally speaking!

[@williambrooks9548]

As a former LDS member 86 yrs man. The focus on what the body does, or doesn't do, to be a mistake rather then a sin. The church programs & promotes self hatred or guilt within the minds of it's members to the point that they do not know they even have a mind.. It promotes financial success in men which it demands 10 percent. Here is an idea to consider. That God being perfect & unchangeable could not create a world that is constantly changing.

[@mossyoakmom8880]

I don’t think Mormon culture has always been so superficial. My uncle is Mormon and in the early 80s his family seemed pretty behind times in fashion to me.

[@TheWanderingHeretic]

OK so with that horrible "put on a little lipstick" comment from Mr. Holland, I figure it's time to comment about being a gender non-conforming woman. I grew up in the 2000s and make-up was really damn inaccessible to me then because of my sensory hypersensitivity issues. Now they finally make some make-up that isn't *painful* for me to wear, I'll do it now and then. But I don't feel obligated to wear it every day. And there are other things about me that sometimes get dubbed "un-womanly", such as the way I converse. When people say that something I wear/say/do is not right "for a woman" I think it's amusing / don't care, and I've learned that that means I'm gender non-conforming. I am not a man; it would be fine if I were one but I'm not. If somebody thinks I am a man despite what I say, or that I "look like a man" for whatever reason, that's that person's issue, not mine! I probably have been discriminated against or misunderstood because of how I present myself, and again that's society's problem not mine. It's important to have conversations like this one and shed light on the unfair standards people apply unconsciously. Among other things, this work paves the way to get to where women can be ourselves in our professional lives, which I long for so much. I want liberation for everyone, and getting rid of these oppressive appearance/behavior standards makes things better for trans folks too. And of course, horrible transphobic policies = the subject of the next episode of Mormon Stories after this one lol. This is it, this is *the fight* in our society right now.

[@TheWanderingHeretic]

And of course, the gendered appearance and behavior standards are a tool of white supremacy. Much has been said by experts about what this does to women of color, to Black women in particular. The fight in our society is always about white supremacy on some level. Finally, everyone who needs gender affirming care should be able to freaking access that. This discussion should not be mistaken for a general attack on the practice of cosmetic surgery. I think one thing that ties these experiences, these struggles, together is body positivity. Winning looks like everyone being comfortable in their bodies and being comfortable presenting their true selves to the world, by whatever means necessary.