Why new guitar speakers are "better" than vintage!

[@JensenSpeakersVideos]

Very interesting video, Johan! Let me introduce myself, my name is Ignazio Vagnone and I work for Jensen Speakers. I'd like to add a few comments that come out of our experience in searching, back engineering and rebuilding the vintage Jensen AlNiCo and Ceramic speakers. 1) Dynamics: please allow me to put it this way. Yes, the spider and suspensions will become softer, so the speaker will be looser, less tight sounding, it may seem maybe less "fast" "forward" and "in your face". What really gets progressively lost is the maximum SPL capability, because the membrane will have gained WEIGHT, because of progressive layers and layers of smoke, dust, dirt, etc. even if we're talking of a few grams, any added weight will reduce the sensitivity, and will dampen the treble range. Some may say that the magnet will also lose some of its flux... maybe, but unless very specific cases, this is really negligible. 2) Lifestyle: there is no way to know how a vintage speaker has aged: Maybe this 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb, fit with a Jensen C12N, has lived its life in a dry, air conditioned living room, in the hands of a jazz guy who never gigged. Maybe the next one out of the Fender production line was the backline amp of a blues club in New Orleans, where it has been beaten to death night after night, in a dusty, smokey, super humid environment. Those two speakers will NOT sound and measure nearly close. Radically different. To know how the "average" C12N (or Greenback etc.) tone, you need to sample and compare as many as you can. One will never tell you the full story. 3) Break-in: Johan is right. 20 to 30 hours of reasonably loud playing volume will bring a new speaker about 90% of its natural break-in process. After that, the changes will happen veeeeery slowly, if noticeable at all. Don't mess around with sine sweeps, frequency generators, white noise or any of that stuff, to try and break-in the speaker faster, if you don't know what you're doing and you cannot monitor and measure the voice coil temperature. You'd be surprised how easy is to overheat and damage a voice coil with just a handful of watts, applied in a CONTINUOUS manner. The guitar signal is made of transients and silence. Even a few milliseconds of silence are essential for the voice coil to cool down, avoiding the heat build-up. 4) Be careful: when you fire up a vintage speaker, do it with patience and ease. Start with very low volume and listen carefully for any cracks, pops, "ripping paper" noises, etc. Obviously, you want to hear if the voice coil runs smoothly and does not scratch against the sides of its gap. But note that another delicate element of a vintage speaker is the glue. Back in the days, glues were natural (like Hide-Glue) and those glues have the tendency to crystalize along with time, losing that little bit of elasticity that is essential for their correct behavior. We've seen MANY speakers that looked great, literally detaching from the basket and/or from the spider or voice coil after a few minutes of playing, because the glues were gone and dusted. Hope this may be of interest... have fun, play loud, and be safe! Ignazio

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Ignazio! I appreciate the feedback!

[@giraffewaggoner8119]

Ill add this and likely be called a fool. Sometimes cheap speaker just needs cheap spray paint on the cone. Wide open attack seems to improve. But my style might not match yours, worth a try when you find that one speaker that goes well in nothing you have. The treble will definitely be reduced...but not in all respects.

[@JensenSpeakersVideos]

@@giraffewaggoner8119 Well, a layer of spray paint will add weight, and make the membrane slightly more rigid. The speaker will be darker sounding, slightly less efficient, maybe a bit tighter in the bass range. The more paint, the more these effects will happen. It may work with a speaker that sounds harsh in the top end. The problems with this are a) you can't know in advance how much it will change, so you're making a guess/assumption. 2) you can never come back. So... be careful!

[@MrBossei]

@@JensenSpeakersVideos Really interesting info. Thanks Jensen! 🙏

[@patfurlan]

Giraffe Waggoner clear lacquer is used to make cones stiffer ... this is often visible as a dip mark near the dust cover on vintage celestions

[@calebandresen]

Point #5 also touches on one of the reasons I have a hard time getting into rock music produced in the last couple of decades. The increased compression and focus on overall “loudness” removes the natural dynamics that I love so much about the music from the 60s-70s. Albums back in the day had such a great “woody” and organic character that tends to get lost when you heavily compress the tracks. One thing I love about your full band demos is your ability to capture that same essence and feel from that era.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks man, it makes my day to hear that!

[@sunnibird]

I think that has more to do with modern mastering than the actual recording.

[@calebandresen]

@@sunnibird Yes, it’s primarily a mastering/production phenomenon. However, it’s an additional example of the trend that Johan is pointing out.

[@calebandresen]

@@bluesrocker91 Those are all great points. I used to be an avid drummer, and I never could figure out why the drum tracks on newer recordings sounded so much different than those made 40+ years ago. After researching recording techniques, I came to the same conclusion you present here. Johan has several great videos on mic’ing up drums with 1-2 microphones and his results are far superior (in my opinion) to sticking a mic on every single drum and cymbal individually. At least if you’re trying to reproduce the sound of the 60s-70s.

[@DMSProduktions]

It's all IN how it's recorded! You CAN make a digital recording 'sound' analogue by not over saturating the tracks with level, you don't need it as there is no tape 'noise' to over come, & mix it like an old recording with only gentle levels of compression on things like drums & bass, & vocals. OD'd guitars are already compressed & do not need extra!

[@denismguitar1552]

Great points Johan. People forget that when these “classics” were recorded there weren’t classics. They were pretty new. People overthink all this stuff and chase perfect sounds, which in itself is funny because we all process sounds slightly differently. My wife is much more sensitive to 2.5k-4K than I am.

[@zandig666]

Let's go !! I enjoyed this mini commentary Johan please make more like it !!!🤟🤟 The trees blowing in the wind was a nice touch hhha

[@anthonydratnal1870]

Please play that reconed G12H30 and compare it to original and reissue ones, Johan! That would probably be the best data point about speaker aging we've ever had: new today vs new pre-73, and old pre-73 vs new pre-73

[@cgavin1]

Did it ever happen?

[@anthonydratnal1870]

@@cgavin1 unfortunately, I don't think we've had this all in one video yet. There are some older Johan videos which show pre-1973 G12M25s vs early 90's reissues (from an AC30) vs modern Chinese, and the 90's were very close, but that doesn't fully isolate all the variables.

[@cgavin1]

@@anthonydratnal1870 Ho hum. :( I bet nobody is more disappointed that it didn't happen than Johan hehe. Thanks for filling me in mate. 👍

[@moustachio334]

​@@cgavin1it happened

[@nickangelo3283]

Johan, I love how you are really sharing your knowledge in recent videos. I also love your videos that are mostly the soundclips, but you have so much knowledge and it’s great to hear your opinions and insight. Thank you!

[@pomod]

My 50 year old ears have also lost some "dynamic range" Johan. But an interesting vid.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I have the same issue

[@stevesteve1965]

In 40-50 years time today's speakers will be vintage. My 40 year old Tokai 'Strat' and 'Les Paul' are vintage now and are older now than a 59 les Paul was when I bought them.

[@liverpoolred2834]

Hi Johan, we weren't confused by the title......we're just confused because.....we're guitarists! :-). Thanks again for another great video to help us be less confused.

[@grahamt33]

Wow ! Feedback from the Jensen guys . I LOVE Jensen AND Eminence over virtually all Celestions BUT have to confess 1 of my Amps uses Vintage 30's!

[@leiferickson3183]

I am super excited about hearing the recone!

[@monkeybearbleu]

Love your chilled-out style. Always a pleasure to listen to/watch. Thank you!

[@macintune]

I like new speakers , even the Celestions' made in China.They sound great, are affordable and available . If they get damaged I can buy replacements. Finding old speakers in good condition is not worth the time or money. I also prefer the rock music of the 60's and 70's and wish I still have the stereo and records I had then, although like speakers, the vinyl were trashed from use and abuse.

[@DMSProduktions]

I only use AUSSIE made LORANTZ speakers! The best of Celestian & EV rolled into one!

[@denismguitar1552]

Rather than supporting China you could check out Warehouse Speakers. They make fantastic speakers. Generally always the case in manufacturing, parts are sourced from all over the world, with parts made in the US used whenever possible. We have two of the world's oldest paper manufactures (both in the US) that make the paper cones, magnet material is sourced from wherever the best can be found (that changes from time to time), and, yes, some of the pieces are made at the plant in Paducah, KY as well. And then, all of the assembly is done at the plant in Paducah ... which includes paint (powder coat), wiring, gaussing (charging)the magnet material, labeling ... and the other stuff ... gluing, trimming, soldering, screwing, bolting, final packaging ... I think that's about it ... but I'm sure I forgot something, maybe one of the guys in Paducah will chime in here. 100% of the designing, research, and development is done in Paducah (although real-world musicians play a part ... from wherever they may be). And, prototypes are 100% made in-house.

[@HiHello-ku1fl]

I really like WGS speakers. I'd rather support them or Scumback speakers which also sound great and have done their research. Not sure where he gets his parts but Scumback was in California but now in Arizona.

[@aronhallam6449]

vintage 30s are a ripoff in my opinion ,l love them but they must cost about 10 pounds to make and they charge 80 quid.

[@paulcowart3174]

@@HiHello-ku1fl I believe Weber is American made as well

[@matthewf1979]

I love the thrill of the hunt when it comes to finding good speakers(and gear overall). I have had vintage original Jensen, Oxford, Utah, JBL, CTS, Eminence and Celestion 10’s and 12’s. I have found that I like brand new speakers a lot more because they’re consistent. I have a few go to Alnico and Ceramic speakers for the tone I like. The Eminence GA12-SC64 and Weber 12F125/10F125 for American ceramic. Weber/Tweed Deluxe Speed Shop A12Q, Weber 10A100, Eminence 1028K and GA10-SC59 for American Alnico. Celestion G12H75 Creamback for British Ceramic and G12/10 Gold for British Alnico. It took a long time and a lot of experimentation(and money) to get this far. If I could only have one 12 it would be the GA12-SC64 and the 10 would be the G10 Alnico Gold. They’re just so flexible and have a full, flat response that’s easy to EQ with the amp.

[@stefftrim]

Thanks Johan. I will initiate the answer by saying analog vs digital. By this I mean I play my JTM45 with tube rectifying signal into a 4x12 stack with Pulsonic cones, I get the feedback and sustain naturally; I don’t need to add anything into the sound chain. I don’t record so I can’t give a valid answer to that except reminding what Eddie Cramer did to Alive during overdubs in Electric Lady Studio. It was still analog recording with big master tapes. No plugins. Aside from that when I bought my first set of Pulsonic greenbacks and I compared them to the 90’ ies Bristish greenbacks I had, I had the direct possibility to listening to them back to back and I knew I had found the sound I was looking for.

[@Vaughn6886]

Another thing to consider when listening to older rock songs vs new songs are the changes in recording technologies. Bands in the 70s were recording directly to tape which adds its own character to the sound. Depending on the tape width/type/speed, dynamics can change drastically and I believe it was a common problem to have a loss in high end. By today's standards, most older recordings are close to being considered lo-fi. The fidelity of recording in the modern digital world is what creates the current wide spectrum of dynamics. Personally I still prefer the sound of tape compression. I think recording on tape and capturing it's warmth and compression is the secret to great guitar tone.

[@JohanSegeborn]

I prefer it too

[@Filoofa]

Very intelligent observations and conclusions Johan!

[@ac81017]

LN högtalare service in GBG, can change the spiders,coils and basically give your old drivers a new lease of life. :-) Very interesting video!

[@kickinvideo333]

Johann Segeborn Your discussion of the challenges elder artists face in recording new music in the modern era with modern technology brought to mind a band that seems to have avoided these pitfalls. The progressive band Styx from Chicago has astounded their fans (myself included) with two recent theme albums that are constructed so masterfully in the spirit of their heyday that you will quickly find yourself lost in them as if transported in a time machine. If you appreciate their late 70s music, I think you will be pleasantly surprised - even astounded - by modern Styx. The Mission (2017) and Crash Of The Crown (2021) fit like a hand-in-glove when enjoyed with The Grand Illusion (1977) and Pieces Of Eight (1978). The instruments, compositions, themes and production range are such as though they are all contemporary with each other and all could have been recorded in the same era.

[@fretbuzz59]

There's plenty I'd return to the late 70s to experience again, but Styx sure isn't among them.

[@kickinvideo333]

fretbuzz59 To each his own

[@massiegauthier1529]

I do find that Slash's 2010s albums have a broad array of epic guitar tone, as if the vintage sound had been upped to modern "landscape" as you said. Great video, testifies of your being knowledgeable, curious and objective. Absolute tone master!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Slash is a good example indeed! He is really grounded in both worlds tonally

[@mohamedtlass3842]

I have a 1935 National Dobro 6107A amplifier with the original 12 inch magnavox field coil speaker, never reconed, and doesn’t sound tired at all!

[@chazzthat7255]

You bring up some very valid points in this video. As always,well done brother👍

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Brother!

[@lanceraustin]

Amazing video, as always. I play the old gear, write in the old style- and produce it that way, too. Good point about legacy bands with a backlog to protect. But for us small fries, we should keep the whole production as period correct, IMHO.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Lance! Yeah we should certainly avoid the compromise they’re forced to make

[@jayguitar]

Really interesting points Johan. It came to mind when I started watching the video that when we listen to our favourite albums from the 70s and 80s, those guys were using new speakers - not vintage. Often people are chasing that ‘vintage’ tone but using old gear - which from what you said is the opposite way to do it right? Recording and production plays a huge part in it as well. Modern mixing and mastering often focuses on loudness and dynamics are stripped from the final mixes. I find it a real shame that this happens - I think there is a middle ground where it can be loud but still retain punch and dynamics - a little less loud but that’s why we have a volume knob on our stereos right? I love listening to old vinyl as you can hear the change in volume and dynamics and feel. Everything isn’t the same volume throughout. Anyways, good points. Thanks and have an awesome day.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Jay! Great to hear that.

[@mdub048]

I have G12M reissues from the early 90s and Pulsonic G12M greybacks. They sound very similar. Johan, I think you have a very personal tone, too. That is a good thing. One of my best ever setups was a JTM 50 clone and some well broken in Weber G12Ms. They sounded more authentic than the real vintage stuff I had access to, because the vintage stuff (100 watt Plexis and Metal panels - unmodified) was worn out and had drifting component values. Without a tube desk and recording to tape... there's just so many factors. Play and be happy. : )

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! :-)

[@mickrinaldiofficial979]

So many good points here johan..ive been a vintage man for years..but these celestion blue and gold and i have a brand new jenson in my 1950s fender tweed!....keep up the good work mate!

[@USTTRM]

I have to agree with the sound of Vintage Greenbacks. It’s a matter of preference, but nothing sounds like them.The 55hrz G12 M being better than anything today.

[@anthonycashero7605]

Actually with my Bassbreaker 15 with the greenback speaker (Classic) mixed with a vintage greenback sounds very good ( extension cab). The modern greenback speaker sounds nice to me. It's all subjective.

[@TheLiam01]

@@kbkman7742 I have a Lorantz 50 watt version of a Greenback from '97 (which I bought used a year ago) in a Mojotone Tweed Deluxe and it sounds great! Very vibey and has a smooth kind of crunch in the mids, and nice chimey highs. But I don't have a proper Greenback to compare it to however.

[@DMSProduktions]

@@kbkman7742 HAH! You like Lorantz too huh? I know the owner Michael! VERY smart man! I only use his speakers! They totally rock! I am 5 mins from his factory! 90% of his product is export to CHINA! He makes GREAT PA speakers as well! Totally recommended!!! His prices are VERY reasonable! His Celestion clone/style speakers for guitar are only about $135 ea!!! Way cheaper than a UK made Celestion for $300+ each!

[@DMSProduktions]

@@TheLiam01 Lorantz FTW mate! \m/

[@kbkman7742]

@@DMSProduktions yep I heard a few and then put a pair in an orange myself a few years ago. Very nice speakers. They have that angry top end thing going on that the mic reissues dont do. I know the operation is prettymuch a continuation of the old rola plessey outfit isn't it? Big fan of old aussie speakers too,I have a pair of Msp alnicos

[@LPCustom3]

Boy…, yer making me feel F’ing old.. I remember when all these speakers were new… In my head I’m still 19 years old..

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hahaha! ;-)

[@jorispiteraerents6226]

Good topic ! But I stay with my pre Rola's.... little trick to keep old Pulsonic cones alive : spray a tiny mist of silicone spray over them ( protect the dust cap ). Play & handle them with respect and they will survive you. Cheers !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Interesting advice!

[@massiegauthier1529]

I've just bought my first pulsonic ever, and my first 1980 g12-65 is on the way. And now this video. Interesting! Cheers!

[@massiegauthier1529]

Maybe running used vintage speaker in 1x12 would help retrieve treble content in the dynamic. That is what I plan to do with my soon arriving JTM1H!

[@NINEWALKING]

This muist have been harder on you than on me :) It's hard to express your self clearly in non native language. Though as always you make some valid points. I take it as different things for different people. Everyone has it's taste and it's needs. Many people think that they know what they need but actually have false picture about the thing they adore. Normal human issues :) I would be very interested to hear proper re-conned with proper material Pulsonic Greenback or some NOS that was never used and was on dry place. I bett experience would be very interesting.

[@BillMaxVoxPax]

Hi Johan, a while back you did some cool comparison of combinations of speakers. this gives me the idea that you could do something similar, do some classic/new combinations. maybe you could get the cream and the punch at the same time... edited.... guess I should have waited till the end LOL

[@Black-Maple]

Own 2 china reissue greenbacks and absolutly love them. Great mid voicing without killing too much highs.

[@JimmyDevere]

Good discussion and good points. 1. Regarding my RI greenbacks, it may well be true that 40-80 hours playing but I would qualify that as max volume (or close to). It took me over a year to break them in and it didn't start happening until I used an iso booth, otherwise I don't think they would ever break in. 2. I have several Germino amps and they are much warmer than modern RIs and more reliable and more care is taken to recreate. There is a market for it, Marshall could do more Hand Wired stuff etc but they don't. As far as speakers, I think the materials are key and just like tubes the guitar and amp/speaker industries are just drops in the bucket for the industrial status of the day and the skills, material and labor are not where they were in the 60s. Having said that, I find that the boutique transformer, speaker ( I endorse Weber), pick up and amp builders are putting out the best on the market than the big Guitar companies are, and good music can be recorded and made that stands with the classics as long as the musicinaship/talent and production are there. But the issue of talent is a big one I'm noticing. I just don't think we have the talent in these forms of music that we once did in terms of quantity. And that's fine. Why are we making this music anyhow? It's for ourselves and the small audiences that appreciate it. 3. Getting back to speakers, as I said I use Webers and I prefer them over modern Celestions. They may not sound exactly like a vintage GB but I have never played one and I likely won't unless I go into a studio that has them and that's fine with me. The heart of it is the music itself and the performance, as time goes by, sounding exactly like "name your favorite band" will fade to inspiration as it should, and not copying.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Great feedback. 40-80 hours is indeed loud playing. Cheers

[@JamesMcCutcheon]

My 70-Year-old heavily abused ears can still do pretty good with understanding tones produced by different amplifiers and the speakers used. From my experience, the total tone experience is a blend of so many factors. I feel that players now have a golden age of TONE machines to select from. I know that the Speaker is the final COMPONENT that delivers the sound to the ears. Maybe the most important item to pay attention to and be discerned with carefully trained ears. Good Video.

[@jcoulter43]

Great video. I agree with your reasoning. God bless and rock on 👍😎🎸

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks brother, rock on!

[@Joshcheyka]

Me personally I've liked every cab better after its been beat on. Honestly if you actually stretch the amp and speakers legs out (like a lot of the guys from the 70s had to do by not having their amps mic'ed) it would only take a rehearsal or two before the sound of the new cab seated in...with the amp unassisted by a PA at gig volume. I got my matching Silver Jubilee 2551AV Vintage 30 4x12 cab last year and the medium volume jams didn't do a whole lot to break the speaker cab in, I decided to try the chunky clean chord method with the volume on 7 to 8 and played nothing but rockabilly & blues stuff for a half hour and that cab was a completely different animal when I went back to my high gain normal! I recorded the entire half hour process without touching my recording device and it was quite a noticeable difference and the most important test...the mojo test!. It will most definitely continue to mature. I think the aspect and importance of speaker break in goes over a lot of peoples heads since its hard to find a place to let a half or full stack amp loose be it at a gig, small club or otherwise, given how much importance the PA's have today in sound management, we just aren't running our amps as hot as players did decades ago because of the way sound is managed today, as a result many cabs can go a long time without a proper break in. Personally I'm just worried if I'll be able to find tubes in the future!

[@adamhunt397]

Fascinating topic. Recently I played musical chairs with some speakers and my two amps. I'll spare you all the details but I'll tell you what I settled on but I put a ToneTubby Alnico Red in a 5e3 clone and I put a ToneTubby 4040 into a cab used with an 18-watt Plexi clone. I've played with some other modern speakers but I've found them to be very strident. Johan eluded to this with his own experiment with the sandpaper, that the dope used on newer speakers tend to accentuate the highs. The TT speakers appear to be lightly doped and I believe that's one of the reasons why they sound softer (some say darker) than other contemporary speakers. Obviously, there are other variables but that's my thought. I was also thinking that the degradation of the speaker's magnets may also be a contributing factor to why older speakers sound different from modern ones too.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Great feedback and yeah the magnets are diminished in strength indeed

[@Qwitsoender]

It’s possible to re-magnetise them. Weber in the US used to do this. I think they still do. I’m speculating it might be one of the secrets of a really good re-cone.

[@hoboroadie4623]

Allude to an elusive allusion. ✌

[@notthesameman]

Always a great video and trying new or old ideas its fun thanks johan

[@vincenzoerriquenz2356]

Hello Johan, all your thoughts make sense; even back in the day iconic guitar players were seeking more bite, more mid push and gain from their rigs with boosters and external overdrives, so acual Marshall users do, cheers!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi Vincenzo! Glad to hear it. Cheers!

[@paulcowart3174]

I have a brand new Weber classic alnico in my Princeton and it sounds great and it's not even broke in yet 20 to 100 hours the forum's say Supposedly smoother after break in but not bad to start just a bit harsh/brash Speaker builders are fantastic Hands down a great time to be a player

[@andrewksadventures]

I have vintage and modern amps/speakers and they all sound great, including the Chinese Celestion v30s!

[@adamwatson6916]

I own a wide variety of modern celestions I have chinese regular production models like greenback reissue vintage 30 G12h30 anniversary and several made in england versions like the marshall branded v30 and heritage speakers creamback m65 and hertiage H30s both 75hz and 55hz and they all sound fantastic I like the 75hz and 55hz hertiage models and creamback the best of the bunch but not becuase they are better than the regular production but becuase they are different but in terms of quality both tonally and materially the Chinese versions are are fantastic. I like some but not all of my made in England versions better but it's got nothing to do with where they are made. In reality the chinese made greenback reiisue and the chinese v30 are in my top 5 favorites behind the 2 hertiage H30 models and my creamback m65

[@andrewksadventures]

@@adamwatson6916 @Adam Watson Sounds like a good array of speakers there! Interesting that you say that they're not necessarily better or worse just voiced differently. I have just had delivered some UK built Celestion neo creambacks for my gigging amplifier, an Ulbrick Arena. I know they'll sound different to the original v30s but I need to lift the amp without injury! Many say they don't like neos, but they will have to break in a bit and I'm sure with dialing the tone controls I'll get a tone that I want for playing live and jamming even if not the same as the v30s. The v30s I believe are chemically aged so they sound worn in from the start. I also have some Jenson neos to go in my 70s twin reverb. The original's are Rolas. My 66 pro reverb has Utah's that alot of people dislike but I think suit the amp perfectly.

[@plexidust5101]

I wonder if you have ever tightened the screws on your favorite Marshalls. The soundboard and soundpost. In addition the rubber pad on the back is designed to "Bow" the back when tightened. New cabs are mostly MDF and deader due to the vast amount of epoxy holding the 'sawdust' together ;-) . My own Old V. New was radical. My Pre Rola 003's displayed more dynamics, freq response and texture hands down. I can live with new V30's, Scumback and Webers though. I also concur with your 'square mag' findings . NIce Work !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@Twizzelification]

Very good esplanation and video man!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Chris! I’m glad to hear that!

[@michaelcraig9449]

So much to learn! OK if someone now was going to get a re-issue 1959 or JTM 45 head, or one of the plexi tone amps. OK what would be the best speakers to put in the cab to get the best general Hendrix type classic plexi tones? Which would be the best re issue plexi head, cab, and speakers to get for that?

[@riangarianga]

This is my favourite topic on your channel, the one that led me during the confinement last year to spend a small fortune on speakers 😝 But all of them are new, as first used by me. I wasn't confident about spending a good chunk of money on vintage G12Ms. Although some of those speakers I got were manufactured more than 10 years ago. Like that pair of G12M Heritage made in January 2009, even having the old Celestion connectors that need soldering. I connected one and, despite the really low bedroom volume, it was like the classic sound of rock&roll just entered home! Such a great timbre that as soon as I could I made recordings to generate my own IR collection in order to preserve it. Later I got a G12M Classic made in 2013 and it's exactly what you mention: brighter, harsher, more scooped. It's not a bad sound at all, I really like it, but it isn't that vintage sound either. You can tame the high end and add mids to make it sound similar to the Heritage, despite it missing some vibe. I actually wonder how a G12M Heritage (now out of production by that name, although the G12 EVH actually is the same speaker, just with a different sticker) compares to a Pulsonic G12M in good condition. IRs made in the same recording set-up (same cabinet/room/microphone/position) might be a good system for comparison. About reproducing a certain classic sound, I read an interview with a Celestion engineer made in the time where there was some controversy about the China or England-made Vintage 30s being better. He stated that both were the same from a mechanical, component and manufacturing process perspective, the machinery in China having been originally in England, but in China they could actually use the original glues that became banned in England. The only used speaker that I own is actually a made-in-England Vintage 30 taken from an Orange cab (it has the Orange T number) by a music shop. It's a great speaker, but I couldn't compare it to the regular Vintage 30 produced in China - or to the famous Mesa Vintage 30s favoured by many people.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad to hear it! :-)

[@277southtombob]

I think whatever sounds good to the one playing through the speaker is best. I never would push my likes on another player as better than what they like. Personally I like well broken in speakers and think they start really sounding better after a couple of years of consistent use. I have used old extremely broken in speakers at times because some that I really like are no longer available new. I love the Alnico “coffee can” EV SROs and for clean/light crunch I love the JBL D series and unfortunately both are out of production and it’s hard to find anyone to properly recone them. Brown Soun and Weber (depending on speaker) do better than most though.

[@Lu_Woods]

I love my ancient D-131's

[@morenoteslesstalk]

I'm a simple man: it didn't even started yet, I press like.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks my friend! :-)

[@hekakain4108]

Yes, you truly are simple.

[@stevencancel1727]

A lot of people are trying to recreate the cone/voice coil assembly doping process etc as a recone process to recreate pulsonic or Kurt Mueller cones if the magnet frame assembly is still good, winner wins a blind shootout Also many are trying to create a modern hand wired circuit that recreates the tone of those wonderful vintage amps Had the pleasure of knowing and working with many and the work continues Actually had a company want to tear apart a vintage 20 watt 12 inch celestion from a pinstripe cab mint condition speakers with the t codes and model on the gasket, said they wanted to reverse engineer OMG! no

[@siegfriedwashburn3484]

Hi, Johan! I am 98% agree with you, but 2% are those abnormal which must be included. Gonna save this video. Thank you very much! Z

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks man, great to hear that!

[@pauldoan8391]

Excellent Johan thank you

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Paul!

[@adamwatson6916]

They may not sound exactly like the originals but my heritage H30 75hz and H30 55hz sound fantastic anyway and love them more than the regular production celestions I use which are also great speakers in their own right. I have no problem getting great marhsall tone with my various modern celestions both heritage and regular production . I still the tone that made vintage celestions so great even if the tone is a little off from the originals. The heritage 55hz H30 is my favorite modern speaker and oddly enough I found alot brighter then my 75hz hertiage H30 . To my ears the 75hz has more bass but the 55hz has alot more lower mids . With the 75hz I hear lots of bass and upper mids with the 55hz I hear more lower mids and treble . I dont know if that gives with the eq curves shown on paper but that is what I hear . The difference between the 2 cabs I have those speakers in surely plays a big role in what I hear though.

[@robpetoletti826]

Thanks Johan!

[@BlueHouseSoundStudio]

New speakers are consistent... consistent at creating sounds I don’t find very good 😂... who knows where the mystery lies... but I am a vintage celestion buff. Cheers

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cheers! ;-)

[@jaycee30865]

You’ve played the heritage series? The undoped & expensive celestions?

[@hkguitar1984]

While I generally agree with you 100%, I’ve found a guy who is a Wizard at re-coming speakers. I would imagine there are many very knowledgeable, experienced and enthusiastic technicians that re-cone speakers, however I just can’t emphasize enough how much improvement towards a vintage tone can be achieved with the right combination of skill and non-standard cones, spiders and voice coils. Add to that how much careful doping can affect the final tone, performance and character of a speaker and I’ve come to realize that my life will continue without true vintage speakers. Just my $.02 Cents.

[@BlueHouseSoundStudio]

@@jaycee30865 didn’t know they were undoped... celestion is not very transparent on how and why the “British” ones are currently made or differ from the rest. Cheers

[@BlueHouseSoundStudio]

@@hkguitar1984 I would be interested in learning more about that! Johan has really been the man to come on here and quantify all these variations... ultimately everyone’s ear has to be the judge. I would love to find alternatives... I own very many speakers... mostly vintage... I have some black back scum backs hoping they could at least get the black back sound... the funny thing is they don’t much sound any more like a black back as they do any other speaker vs any other speaker... it’s all quite interesting and funny... I’ll continue messing with them and my quest simply cause I quite enjoy it and love the options in the studio ... cheers

[@TroyLeonardO]

I have 2 jbl d120F's that I'm going to recone. I hope they sound glorious.🤞🙏🏽🤞

[@TimpBizkit]

I've found that about older recordings. Bands like Manowar, though famous for being LOUD are actually quite light in bass and punch in the recordings compared to Rammstein, Metallica and Sabaton and instead have more of that Slade sound.

[@gerryloughran1676]

Cool look forward to old and new speaker mix, is there any impact on the magnet over 50 years...bad habit with open back is to store leads and pedals ! ...bit of a mess when your trying to get them out

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah you rely on the basket to protect the cone there. Cheers!

[@kbkman7742]

As far as I know the magnets shouldn't be affected unless exposed to a stronger magnet. And in that case I think it's alnicos that lose strength... you can degauss guitar pickups by leaning your guitar against speaker cabinets all the time

[@stevencancel1727]

Celestion G12 H 30 55hz 16ohm speakers use current issue 444 V30's cone kit for recone, doping process varies

[@darrenc8776]

I've always wondered how vintage speakers were sposed to sound great. When you think of how a speaker works the cone has to have a nice give to it. A nice broken in speaker has that warmth but still produces a faithful reproduction of you amp/guitars sound. Covers most of the frequencies if you will. But as the cone degrades that reproduction is compromised? Magnets too really change over the years not always for the better. Its all personal preference and theres never a right or wrong. I always remember a good few years ago comparing my jcm 900 combo to a friend of mine. He played his to death for five years were I had other amps i would play. His amp hands down sounded so much warmer than mine. And they were from the same year I'm guessing the sound of the broken in speakers really made the difference.

[@CarstenGoeke]

Interesting video. I really never understood how a customer would judge an amp just playing without a band. I understand the momentum of the first impression. Ok. But in the end you have to decide, after you rehearsed with your mates. Old Marshalls, Hiwatts etc. may sound harsh and brutal. A Mesa Boogie Quad Preamp with Simul Class Poweramp would be "nicer" if you play it alone. But in context the harsh amps could win. Thanks for your videos and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼

[@michaelstankiewitch5391]

I think you had correct theory about thinner new production cones.i believe old growth trees had stronger fibers thereby a thinner lighter cone could be used thereby giving greater top end and dynamic control using less mass.That is why exact spectral analysis cone recipe cones fall short even though recipe is identical.Thinning today's cone gives brighter tone but weaker cone.That is why it is impossible to duplicate cones of yesteryear.That is my story and I'm sticking to it.Wood use today has to be approved by the tree huggers.Only special run donated old trees can come close.Imho..

[@patfurlan]

Most people shopping in music stores buy with their eyes... very few musicians and music store customers actually have critical listening skills... I use new speakers ... but I also age them before I install them .

[@b-regsproductions]

Speaker making technology is incredible today. Sure you can get cheap speakers but there are tons of nice options of high end speakers.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah in Hifi there are really impressive speakers

[@adamwatson6916]

I have a mixture Duncan pickups like whole lotta humbuckers and seth livers a couple of guitars with custombuckers and 4 guitars with burstbuckers 2 and 3 and what I really live about burstbuckers 2 and 3 is that they are a great pickups for low volume playing becuase they are extremely punchy and have extra output that pushes the amp . I find the burstbucker 1 and 2 quite cold as well but the 3 is perfect its punchy a bit more aggressive then a lot of paf types but can be tamed with the guitar volume pot . It also has much more warmth then the burstbucker 2 and is not cold in any way at the same time that extra warmth does not cut down on the brightness or punch. You can get some pretty decent brown tones from it too. The burstbucker 3 in my opinion sounds best in an explorer it sounds great in a les paul too but better in an explorer

[@rolandoo002]

thanks for the amazing advice!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Roland!

[@peterschmidt9942]

One thing you didn't touch on Johan was that newer speakers are generally more consistent than vintage speakers (much like old vs new guitar pickups). Also that what you're hearing on a recording is not necessarily what was in the room at the time. We're all chasing that recorded sound but the reality is the speakers don't necessarily translate to what ever microphone was used to capture the sound (plus the EQ adjusting, mixing etc when recording).

[@AdamGotheridge]

I recently heard Joe Bonamassa in an interview talking about he gets about 40-50 shows out of his speakers and then they start "giving up" and he replaces them. Not sure of the speakers, and I think it's in the tweed twins (reissues?) that are cranked. It was an interesting comment, and relevant to your subject. Maybe you started a new series of YT videos here. Thanks for all you do on your channel. Always interesting and thought provoking.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Adam! I’d think speakers last a lot longer than that but I don’t know how Joe uses his speakers. Cheers

[@frankdou4132]

guess joe gets some money from a speaker manufacturer, and now anyone into his boring music buys new speakers after every 150 hours played...

[@AdamGotheridge]

@@JohanSegeborn He talks about it on Rhett's video "Why Joe Bonamassa Loves Fender Tweed Amps" at 6:01

[@paulcowart3174]

85 watt Celestions in his Twins

[@frankdou4132]

​@@paulcowart3174 I stay with my greenbacks, and I don't care much what rhett or joe talk... ;o)

[@stevehughes1510]

I'm a big fan and user of the alnico pulsonic Celestions. A current Blue or even a reasonably old one say from the early 2000s doesn't have the same sparkle at the top end. Thanks for this vid it's always good to compare. I did an A/B years ago comparing a stock British made recent G12M20 with one that Marshall put in their 1974X combo which Celestion apparently aged.......the aged one was a step ahead with a luscious rounded sound and not fizzy when pushed. So Celestion do make an aged product which sounds better to my ears.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Steve

[@stevehughes1510]

@@JohanSegeborn Thanks for all that you do with your videos Johan......really enjoy and learn from them. Cheers, Steve.

[@crock2434]

Would doping the speaker help stiffen the cone movement and help an old speaker like a square back or green back sound more dynamic/modern?

[@willkupers]

Very interesting video Johan. So much truth. 👌🏽👍🏽❤

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Will! Great to hear that

[@zachariahwade8482]

I preferred my 68 straight cab with pre Rola ‘20’ watt Greenbacks to both the 1960ax’s (one UK, one Chinese Greenbacks)I had, even though the 68 lacked the punch of reissues. The reissues just sounded too scooped and bland compared to the originals. But I greatly prefer my 77 slant with 55hz 30 watt Blackbacks on top and Chinese V30’s on bottom, partly because it is so much punchier, but also because it is actually sweeter in the top end. I also preferred the original 12-65’s to either the Heritage version, or the Scumback version, because the originals had more presence, but were also sweeter.

[@TheBarroomHero321]

Please let us know who the tech is with NOS Pulsonics. I have some '69 G12m's that need the original cones.

[@robtog]

Insightful, and I agree with you

[@Nati]

3:52 isn't it the opposite ? I've read that at high volume the lows and highs sound more prominent

[@jamessandwell3769]

Agreed, Johan has got it the wrong way around. The louder you play - relatively speaking, the more bass and treble you will hear. All things being equal, playing at lower volumes will mean our hearing will be more sensitive to the midrange frequencies.

[@charleslambiase5670]

End of the day for what they were the Vintage speakers were new at one time so I'm quite sure as they were used more and more they started settling in and I agree with the fact that new speakers will be the same way but more consistent since manufacturing processes as well as material has been greatened,,, same with New tubes and old tubes we don't give a chance to do tubes to settle in once they seem to settle in they have a lot more charisma and seem tougher in the end my opinion so that's how I feel about it sometimes I prefer to have a newer speaker for consistency and being able to keep up with speed especially on bass guitar and in an improvising way

[@JohanSegeborn]

The settling in takes about 60 hours, then the further ageing is usually a bad thing

[@massiegauthier1529]

Speaking of Slash, his tech (SMKC) on the last tour mentioned V30s, driven by old jubilees or signature JCM (90s revisited jubilees). Maybe the key is old amp into modern speaker, or vice versa? The matter of the evolution of sound perception over time is a very intelligent point there, which widens relativity in tone perception even more! We are entering the core of tone seeking philosophy, which to me symbolizes the culmination of your channel. Great contents. (now I stop spamming the comments section ;))

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! :-)

[@stevencancel1727]

The cabinet that the speakers are in drastically affect whether the speakers sound farty or not robust had some vintage celestion in an open back cab and they sounded dead used up, put them in a sealed Marshall vintage cab and they sound very robust and good

[@andreacampana4754]

Vintage speakers have for sure their very own vibe, but their is also an exagerated hype for them! There are many modern speakers that sound ad good as the old ones, are cheaper and even more reliable.... it's a matter of taste!

[@JohanSegeborn]

It is indeed! Cheers

[@HiHello-ku1fl]

I like vintage greenbacks but they can be a bit soft so better to mix with a few newer greenbacks.

[@nilsgrafo5999]

Johan: another great video with an interesting topic! What about having a cab with two or four 12" celestion where half of them are vintage and half of them are new? And having a switch on the back so that you can switch between the 2 "modes" or combine them to get the best of both worlds?! All the best /Nils

[@willdenham]

I just heard Joe Bonomassa say that he changes out his speakers mid-tour. He can hear a loss in dynamics/sensitivity and they start sounding dull to him after a certain number of hours (I think he said 50) of running them hard through his High Powered Twins.

[@ProfVonW]

I just want to know what the best “new” speaker for getting an Ace Frehley “Alive” tone.

[@Ottophil]

Why don’t you make your own tone?

[@adamwatson6916]

Johan has done quite a few videos dedicated to ace alive tone where he demonstrates the exact type cabinet and speaker ace used .

[@ProfVonW]

@@adamwatson6916 I know, but I’m wondering what currently manufactured, off-the-shelf speakers get closest to those speakers. I don’t have the time or money to scour for vintage speakers that might be crapped out. Someone mentioned the G12H Heritage, but they are discontinued. Someone else said the G12 EVH are the same thing but who knows. Johan always cuts through the hype so it would be awesome if he gave a no BS assessment of current speaker offerings.

[@adamwatson6916]

tubes people can copy another person's tone and make their own tone . Copying one players tone does not mean you are using that tone for everything. That's one of the good things about guitar tone it can be easily changed on the spot .. also copying the tone of others teaches you alot about gear and how tone is constructed. Often times people find their own sound when trying to copy others. They create a tone that sounds nothing like the target tone but ends up being a killer tone regardless. Wanting to know what is the best modern speaker for ace alive tone does not mean the guy does not have his own sound or is not trying to achieve his own sound besides if copying ace tone is what makes the guy happy then there is nothing wrong with that . When people ask these questions we should try to give helpful responses instead instead of giving dismissive unhelpful responses. Or do not respond at all

[@JohanSegeborn]

I think the G12H 55Hz heritage. It’s still available at Thomann. Cheers!

[@willdenham]

@Johan, Is your favorite humbucker the burstbucker? I hear you talk about playing it in a lot of your vids. Could you explain what you mean by it sounding 'almost cold' when you were talking about matching them with vintage greenbacks.

[@alistairfletcher6187]

I've had the privilege to own an almost brand new Orange 4x12 with its pics only OR80. It was locked away in the first owner's basement for four decades with a couple of JMPs. After many years he finally decided to sell them to me. That stack was almost never used, almost NOS (for a very interesting reason). It had 75hz G12H greenbacks and it was my least favourite cabinet. I had a 69 2032 and two 72 1960A Marshalls which I still own to compare it to. I sold it, never bought another one. I hated it as much as the Utah's in my Silverfaces. Not everything vintage is great. Of course, some ppl would love to have the Orange, but not when it's next to an original G12H loaded vintage Marshall cab anyway 😂

[@lousekoya1803]

Very happy I just sold my 1969 G12H 55hz just before your video Johan ! Now they just lost half their value Lol !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hahaha! 😉

[@vintagetone22]

I have to say yes the new speakers maybe sound stable .but the vintage one is broken in and sound unique.i dont know but i always prefer the vintage speakers.

[@Margarinethebutterlover]

G'day Johan, Have you ever looked into the English/American sound with regards to voltage? 110-120 volts vs 220-240 volts? I have heard some people comment on this phenomena

[@Yupppi]

Good points, similar to how a customer has gotten used to that classic, produced record over original gear most likely, so they expect to get more than the original sound. The sound to them is a lot more than what the original gear did. Also if you get vintage gear and it sounds like a 50 year old stuff, if you make a new one with the same specs, it's probably gonna sound wildly different than the aged one. Which one is the real golden sound? The original was used on the records and gigs we love when it was rather new. Personally I also think the old blues/rock sounds better at the age of 30 than the age of 10 when I was hearing it a lot from my parents. The lowpass filter of 14 kHz does a lot to remove the painful sharpness of the old tones. I think people don't even realize how nasty it sounds for a kid who has full range of hearing.

[@bigstick5278]

You do realize these recording were done on new or at the least broken in gear.. So a 50 year old speaker is not what you're hearing on these old recordings you're hearing clean studio gear.

[@johngentleman5702]

Love you videos but I hope you don't mind me pointing out a correction about the Fletcher & Muson curve. It actually shows that we hear more bass and treble at loud volumes, and more mids at low volumes. amplifiers oftenboosttreble

[@adamwatson6916]

How much do modern tubes contribute to the more harsh modern marshall sound . I do love the modern Marshall sound just not quite as much as the vintage Marshall Hiwatt orange laney etc.

[@tacmason]

Years ago I bought a brand new Gibson "Lab series" L-5 which was a very good -reliable amp I wish I had kept. I just had to try changing the speakers-so I bought some huge, powerful "SRO's" which were forerunners of the Electrovoice EVM-12L' s. They were so incredibly Loud-I could barely use the 100 watt L-5. Not what I thought I wanted-at all ! so I bought some really expensive-yet Weak -Celestion "Greenbacks"-and That Was what I wanted ! butI still traded away that amp because it was "Ugly" !!! this was years before the "Hoarding" began.

[@mohamedtlass3842]

That was the BB King amp!

[@Dirge4july]

Rabble rabble!!! Anger!!! You better be splaining!

[@narvul]

Apparently nobody seems to understand that all those old records were played on new guitars.

[@vinnieramone4818]

a thought that i have is as the vintage stuff gets bought up and blown up, the price may get to a point that it's worth someone's while to do a good reproduction then after a while the price will come down (hopefully) also as more and more classic rock listeners get old and retire they may want to spend their social security checks on gear as a hobby

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah, the value definitely depends on the generation that most appreciates the gear

[@Twobarpsi]

Great topic!

[@SuperGaryBurns]

WTF......????? The only new speaker I have come across over the years, that is in the same league as vintage ones are the : Celestion Heritage G12M / T1221/ 67BW / 20Watt 15 Ohms . And they are now unfotunatley out of stock.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi! Let’s discuss it after the video :-)

[@SuperGaryBurns]

@@JohanSegeborn Ten -Four ! 😊

[@vintagetone22]

Bro ive got 5 celestions greenback t1221 from 1972.ive never found a speaker that match any of them.maybe the new one uk made but not broken in like the vintage one.

[@SuperGaryBurns]

@@JohanSegeborn Interesting topic. So the "best" thing would be to go Full-Stack with the mix of a vintage 4x12 and a newer 4x12. Then comes the question , which one goes on top ......😊

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hahaha! I think that could be a great idea

[@stevemusky5438]

Great thought provoking video. Just wondering how much is it to do with the age of the listeners ears. And how you remember what it sounded like the first time. How do you measure that?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I think audiograms denotes hearing over the frequency span. Cheers

[@darwinsaye]

Should be an interesting one, since you've said before that no speaker sounds better to you than certain vintage Celestions. :)

[@denismguitar1552]

WGS makes some great speaker choices.

[@georgefromgreece4119]

Which kind of tree is that around 13:30?