Why people would drive steam trains on frozen rivers - Ice Railways

In this video, we take a look at ice railways, aka, that one scene from the Polar Express with less questionable physics
The Eurobeat used in the beginning: • Il vento d'orifto
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This video falls under the fair use act of 1976 This video is available to use under the appropriate Creative Commons Licence.
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[@michail2710]

As far as I know, there were an ice railroad over Kola river (near Murmansk) during World ar I. Another example is an ice railroad over Baikal lake. Before Circum-Baikal Railway was built, the ferries brought trains across the lake. But in cold winter of 1903 the ferries couldn't break the ice, so tracks were laid on ice and cars were pulled one by one by animals. Also the Soviets started an ice railroad across the Ladoga lake in 1942, when all railroads to St.Petersburg were blocked by German army. But it was never used: soon the Soviet army retook Shlisselburg and a land road was available.

[@mrsrmp]

The Red Army tried to build the railway over the Lagoda lake using tram ties and rails, but the trials where unsuccesful as the test train derails constantly; they used trucks instead of trains to feed the city until the germans retrieve in 1944

[@edwardcarlisle1779]

Also, the deal with the Polar Express it that it's a magic train. It can do things that most trains can't including running over a frozen ice lake. Christmas magic. You gotta love it.

[@thetman0068]

The grade of the Polar Express line is ridiculous, too. Certainly not for the faint-hearted engine man.

[@edwardcarlisle1779]

@@thetman0068 That's why the Polar Express is driven by Smokey and Steamy. Two engimen who know their locomotive and up to the task.

[@mentaljudge8649]

True

[@mentaljudge8649]

I love that train 🚂

[@NikkiTheOtter]

@@edwardcarlisle1779 do they KNOW it...or are they a personification oof the trains soul itself?

[@Gulliblepikmin]

So you're telling me that the most realistic parts of the polar express are that the engine and rolling stock that make up the polar express are real and not made up designs and a long heavy train going across a frozen lake. Really puts into perspective on how realistic the movie is.

[@Nakosuke-75]

Apart from the ignorance of safety precautions (and magic), the film is surprisingly grounded in reality

[@iankemp1131]

Realism isn't high on the list for quite a few blockbuster movies. I sat amazed at Mission Impossible with a helicopter supposedly chasing the train through the Channel Tunnel. With folding rotor blades I assume.

[@mewtheenigma2732]

Polar Express: [literally bends like rubber around a mountain] Critics: [I sleep] Polar Express: [drifts across lake] Critics: [Real sh*t]

[@mattevans4377]

Well, Santa Claus is also real ;)

[@VideoDotGoogleDotCom]

The most ridiculously unrealistic thing in the movie is having Santa live at the North Pole. It's common knowledge he lives on Korvatunturi.

[@SteamTrainTy]

God bless you and merry Christmas

[@In.Darkness]

Merry Christmas !🇨🇦

[@dragonboi173]

Merry Christmas friend!

[@lieffian]

Don’t forget a happy new year

[@SteamTrainTy]

@@lieffian of course

[@yeoldeseawitch]

0:05 the locomotive in the film was not designed after a baldwin s3 class. the final design is more of a mishmash of various Berkshire designs but mostly deriving from the Lima-built Pere Marquette N1 class berkshire 1225.

[@mistertoy1]

It was not Baldwin that built 1225, it was the Lima Locomotive Works.

[@yeoldeseawitch]

@@mistertoy1 i know that, ig i forgot to put that in.

[@confusedshovel1232]

that one thing the know-it-all kid got wrong

[@TechLegendGames]

Exactly

[@lukechristmas3951]

As disliked by people who know trains and physics, I do agree I am familiar with trains being on ice however, I've only heard about how the Trans Siberian Railway tried unsuccessfully to lay tracks across a frozen lake. I actually had no idea it was a practice in America! Still, a 4-4-0 I can believe but never a 2-8-4. Thank you for another great video! Merry Christmas!

[@thestonedraider8684]

So your a ice expert?

[@TANGARASandOSCARS]

More wheels actually = better as less weight per axle. A S&DJR 7F 2-8-0 would be approx the same as a dukedog 4-4-0, which would be better than a SR Schools Class 4-4-0 as that has a heavier (and more powerful) boiler

[@michaelbenoit248]

Plus the ice will crack under the insane stress it’s under/stress cracking from being bound up.

[@Jehty_]

@@TANGARASandOSCARS are you certain that the number of axles and axle weight really matters in this case? I would imagine that with trains the track is what is spreading the load. So the axle-weight shouldn't really matter.

[@TANGARASandOSCARS]

@@Jehty_ Yes and no. Steel rails are somewhat rigid and hence will spread the load, yet are not perfectly rigid - the weight of any axle would mostly land upon the two adjacent sleepers. So, in short, it depends.

[@traingoddess]

Surprised that the directors of Fast and Furious haven't cashed in on a train Tokyo Drifting on ice.

[@harrytaylor9564]

As much as I have never been bothered with the F&F Franchise, I would pay to watch that.

[@AnonOmis1000]

While fascinating, I was hoping to hear of a situation where the tracks were flooded then frozen, causing a derailment.

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

I would not be surprised if that happened on a logging line, as it was not uncommon in the steam era to ford creeks and rivers to save money on bridges when they were too shallow for boats. Steam locomotives running slowly through floodwater was a typical solution to minor flooding until lines fully dieselized.

[@KPen3750]

Again, we know the physics are bullshit, but its just so damn spectacular!! the effort the animation team put in is second to none, good video too

[@POTUS1126]

The movie was written with a 3d IMAX release in mind, this is very apparent in the Glacier Gulch scene. (The one immediately prior to the ice lake scene)

[@MrJoeyWheeler]

Honestly, it's not even the drifting that annoys me in The Polar Express. It's the way the train is shown having each set of connecting rods independently controlled and steerable.

[@mrsaturngamingandstories]

This was similar to The Polar Express where a Baldwin S3 2-8-4 locomotive came across a frozen track and almost sink on it when the ice breaks it was crazy to have an ice railway

[@RichardAndewSwayne]

Lima not Baldwin

[@andrewtheberkshireengine4385]

@@RichardAndewSwayne yeah and the polar express is based on pere Marquette 1225 N-1 class 2-8-4 Berkshire steam locomotive and it was built by Lima locomotive works along with nickel plate road S-2 765, and the S-3 is a 4-8-4 steam locomotive

[@mrsaturngamingandstories]

but ITS JUST A FICTIONAL LOCOMOTIVE

[@RichardAndewSwayne]

@@mrsaturngamingandstories Then explain the diamond shaped build plate. If she was a Baldwin, her build plate would have been round.

[@mrsaturngamingandstories]

Maybe Baldwin like limas plate so they attach that to the Polar Express to make it seems that I was built by The Lima locomotive works

[@TotoDG]

Man, I love Christmas specials that aren't _specifically_ about Christmas.

[@mentaljudge8649]

Still,it is my favorite scene. I knew it wasn’t realistic even as a kid, but it further proved to me that the train 🚂 is truly magic. Plus the scene has stuck with me for so many years.

[@ZekPatterson]

I wasn’t ready for Bismarck AND the Red River to get mentioned in a video today (I never am, nothing important ever happens in ND.)

[@DiamondIceNS]

"THERE I AM, GARY, THERE I AM!!" - every North Dakotan when seeing any part of ND referenced in any media ever

[@ZekPatterson]

@@DiamondIceNS Where's the lie? Minnesota too, "That's only 4 hours from here, that's practically my backyard!!"

[@garryferrington811]

You have the movie "Fargo."

[@15DEAN1995]

i love that when you type polar express in to youtube, tokyo drift is one of the top searches

[@Double_D__]

I love this channel so much because I keep learning that Rail history is actually a lot wackier than I realized. I never would have believed something like Ice Railways could exist, but I shouldn't be surprised.

[@scottfw7169]

We railway modelers have for many decades had a saying, "There's a prototype for everything". And more than a few times it has happened that a modeler, of narrow-gauge in particular, has built a thing just to be silly and a week to a month later there surfaces photos and documentation of a real train very much like the model.

[@michaeltischer7195]

It is still a awsome Christmas movie, the ice sence was my fav part of the movie!! And now the movie will be 20 years old for the anniversary of the Polar Express

[@kevwebb2637]

The locomotive in the Polar Express is not just based off the Lima Berk Pere Marquette 1225, the whistle sound is from Sierra Railroad #3, the whistle's Appearance is of a Powell three chime, the smoke box front is from Delaware & Hudson steamers, cab is Nickle Plate 765, Cow catcher is a traditional design minus the Link & pin era drawbar, No pockets used in poling methods is on the pilot beam which is common of US locomotives the section of the locomotives boiler directly in front of the cab is of the New York Central J class hudsons.

[@erikziak1249]

There have been also ice trams. Small two axle cars, powered by overhead wires.

[@garryferrington811]

The 1225 was built by Lima, not Baldwin. Interesting fact: the writer of the book was inspired by seeing the engine rusting away. Years later, movie royalties from measurements and such preserved the very same engine! I saw it at Owosso, Michigan, and it is a mighty beast. Also, it was designed for freight, not passengers.

[@joeythecat7482]

It was mentioned the author of the book got inspiration by seeing 1225 on display at a collage.

[@mistermadmachine6311]

is it safe to assume no one cares about the physics in Polar Express becuase it looked so cool

[@TweetsieRailroader]

I actually did come calculations, and in order to get the Polar Express Locomotive and it's 5 cars across the ice, the ice would need to be nearly 5,000 inches thick. TBH, I think the bigger question is how a pin that probably weighs a few ounces at most could break the ice, even if it does hit it in "the right way."

[@unlucky.guitars]

Well... It's a movie, it doesn't need an explanation

[@nathantaylor4217]

That seems like way too much, even for a full train. Did you account for weight displacement across 8 wheels per car, 12 on the tender, and 14 For the Locomotive? Honestly the Locomotive without the tender is the only part necessary to do the math for, because if that's held up everything else would be easily. Just complete guesses of the locomotive being 1/2 the weight of the entire train and splitting the 5000 you gave over 14 wheels it gives a result of only 178 inches (15-ish feet) Which sounds resonable given it's like 1-2 feet for a car/medium truck. 4 for a big rig. (Again this is all guestimation, and not knowing how surface distribution works, but given the requirements for automobiles, it seems reasonable to me)

[@coloradostrong]

416 feet thick? Oh my sheeshness. C'mon man.

[@briannem.6787]

@@nathantaylor4217 Even then, the locomotives pound the rails somewhat. The pounding of rails would do worse than the pin

[@dailydoseofsunshine2319]

How did this comment get 20 upvotes? The math is horrible lol

[@pvtimberfaller]

There was at least one instance on the Maine narrow gauge of a train jumping the tracks in the snow and the crew had no idea until it stalled and they tried to dig it out only to discover it was a couple hundred yards out in a cowpasture!

[@ab0m1nat10nXGamez3]

The polar express was actually built by the Lima locomotive works and it was actually known as an N class Berkshire type. It was only a goof in the movie

[@iankemp1131]

A fascinating and very seasonal video! I wonder if they even recovered the sunken engine from the bottom of the St Lawrence. That must have hit any profits ...

[@ThyBluebell]

Oddly the website doesn’t specify, but it was built between Montreal Docks & Longueuil, next to Laronde, so I’d imagine in the summer it’d have been picked up by ship.

[@ThyBluebell]

Addendum; According to Montreal Gazette records they had offers to rescue the engine immediately after the accident, and five days after it was recovered, and found in ‘sound condition’

[@roadwarrior114]

@@ThyBluebell That's good.

[@warmike]

In Saint-Petersburg there was an ice tram on Neva Jan 20-Mar 21 from 1895 to 1910, because the horsecar corporation had a monopoly on city streets.

[@ItzDecster]

Here in Queensland, some of our railway lines were in low lying areas prone to flooding and during flood times, our trains would actually slowly go through these waters to reduce delays. The practice stopped when we introduced diesel-electric locomotives.

[@J-1410]

That 1883 rail bridge in Bismarck is still around too. There is talk of trying to save it before they blow it up for a new bridge.

[@jamiekamihachi3135]

I have an old newspaper article with a print of track over the Susquehanna between Havre de Grace and Perryville, Maryland. It appears they didn’t run locomotives over this section but used chains and pulleys attached to a locomotive on land to pull individual cars over the river. This was done unto the Philadelphia, Wilmington, and Baltimore Railroad built a bridge in the same area.

[@FuelFire]

The start of this episode is gold.

[@Emlif]

Here in finland ice railroads are normal also in russia the kola river gets an ice railroad every year! The way how they do it is actually pretty special, first they lay the tracks and get a light train to drive over it pushing a ton of water on top of the ice then they raise the tracks and repeat once the water has frozen, when you do this multiple times you end up with a very thick ice sheet around the tracks around 5 to 10 meters.

[@Gothrailfan_Crow]

The polar express is a Lima N-1 Berkshire, not a Baldwin s3. It is specifically based of the real world locomotive Pierre Marquette 1225, which was build by Lima Co. of Ohio in 1941 for the Pierre Marquette.

[@nathantaylor4217]

This needs more likes. The kid in their defense, this is what the kid in the movie quotes it as, and The Polar express isn't an exact replica of a Lima N-1. It's also very similar to a Lima S-3, in regards to the Smokebox door.(Though still not a perfect match) Both being built 10/18 years respectively after the Kid in the movie quotes.

[@jamesgroccia644]

The Polar Express is based off of Père Marquette Lima N1 class 2-8-4 number 1225, which runs today as part of the Michigan Steam Railroading Institute. Chris Van Allsburg, author of the eponymous children’s book, based his writing on firsthand experience while 1225 was undergoing overhaul and restoration.

[@Blu_Moon_VA]

0:06 I'm loving the Giorno's theme eurobeat remix.

[@johncreed9433]

I know it realistically makes no sense, but come on, you gotta admit that scene from the Polar Express was the dopest shit you saw as a kid.

[@will-qw1tk]

I’m watching polar express tonight, this will be interesting..

[@Arkay315]

I am from the future, train of thought attempted this in a game on Christmas Eve 2022

[@More_Row]

Lovely topic. Thank you for the well wishes and back at you.

[@deadchannel8262]

I didn't know trains could ice skate.

[@In.Darkness]

+100 Points 😂🤣

[@DKQuagmire]

Theres an actual KZbin video of the clip of the polar express on the ice, drifting to intial D's Deja Vu! I love it! you really got me thinking of it when you said "Tokyo Drift" at the start there.

[@411RangerFan]

Fridays are always better when you get a Train of Thought video! Merry Christmas and a happy new year! Keep up the great work with your channel!

[@railwayjade]

Merry Christmas, thanks for the great video!

[@mattevans4377]

I swear you could make a meme about choosing to build rails over ice instead of just building a bridge.

[@pansparrow]

Very interesting, I certainly learned something new. Thank you for sharing this and have a Merry Christmas!

[@mlp-hot-rod5824]

Was the train that sank in the Saint Laurent ever recovered or was it just abandoned?

[@oscarosullivan4513]

I don’t know

[@lukechristmas3951]

I'm going to assume it is still down there. There are a couple of locomotives in the United States that sit at the bottom of a river, one of which is Texas and Pacific Railroad No. 642. 642 was an 1870s built 4-4-0 and crossed an unsafe bridge over Village Creek in Texas and sunk dragging part of its train with it. The 73,000 pound 642 quickly sank into the mud. While some have speculated that the engine was secretly dug up and scrapped, others still claim it is deep underground covered in mud washed over by the river currents.

[@edwardcarlisle1779]

The first Russian transcontinental railway between Moscow and Vladivostok also had a serious accident around 1901 when engineers decided to build tracks over an entire frozen lake to save time. The first train did not even make it halfway across when the ice cracked and the train plunged to the bottom. The railway was completed three years later with the tracks now laid around the lake.

[@eggballo4490]

Was that sunken engine ever recovered?

[@Vixen1525]

I never knew that there was an area in North America called Bismarck. As a German it is interesting.

[@swordkirbyfilms7747]

The Pere Marquette N-1 2-8-4 in the Polar Express was built by Lima, not Baldwin.

[@confusedshovel1232]

it was most likely a reference to the line the know-it-all kid said during the movie

[@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014]

1225 is a Lima built Berkshire, NOT a Baldwin product!

[@t0biascze644]

i like the winter animal crossing music in the background

[@jimtaylor294]

Unsurprisingly this reminds me of the *Multi-Track Drifting!* meme :D . Merry Christmas ToT

[@MATT2productions]

Merry Christmas and very interesting.

[@RealCadde]

Drifting a locomotive on ice technically is possible though. Not that it would be anything like in the movies. But thick enough (and hard enough) ice provides a non-zero friction surface that a locomotive could build up some speed on and then it's just a matter of getting it to start turning. Some locomotives have pilot trucks that curve with the rail as it turns. One could rig something up to make these curve ahead of the locomotive to initiate a drift. No, it most likely wouldn't be moving very fast but drifting is most definitely something that CAN be achieved with a steam locomotive if your goal is to do so. Anything with powered wheels and some way (any way) to initiate a turn can be drifted. And tanks can drift too, they don't have turning wheels. In fact they have tracks. They stop one track and keep the other rolling to make turns and they drift just fine. What about a locomotive tells you they couldn't technically do the same?

[@morgplays2286]

Love the videos! Merry Christmas 🎄

[@In.Darkness]

Merry Christmas !🇨🇦

[@FutureRailProductions]

See this is one thing I would have loved MythBusters to have tested.

[@School_on_Rails]

Mr Beast: *watches this video* Also MrBeast: Today I recreated the Polar express drifting on ice

[@paulstubbs7678]

Ah-yes, the polar express, what really stood out to me was them being able to steer the engine/train so it could align itself with the tracks on the other side..... such silly things kind of kill movies for me.

[@potatohead5910]

Polar Express fans keep saying it's a Baldwin locomotive. It's Lima!

[@AINGELPROJECT667]

I mean, the ice field scene is one of the *more* believable parts of this movie from a railroad enthusiast's standpoint. But as many have pointed out, the Pol Ex is a "magic" train so I think it gets a pass this one time.

[@trainlover16]

Nice use of Mario Kart music as always.

[@In.Darkness]

I hear my train coming ! Fine display Train of Thought. Merry Christmas 🇨🇦

[@PaulSmith-pl7fo]

Have a fantastic Xmas and all best wishes for the New Year.

[@Cat_person_-not-a-furry]

Very interesting video really liked it👍

[@ajaxengineco]

As a follow up - railway engines being run along roads? I've seen pictures of engines being muscled along roadways thanks to things such as incomplete bridges and lack of adequate trackage in the area.

[@POTUS1126]

None exist in Grand rapids though

[@kingofthepod5169]

You mean the town in Canada that used a diesel engine to power it's emergency shelter during a blizzard? It was a MLW M420 and the town was called boucherville. It was in 1998.

[@ajaxengineco]

@@kingofthepod5169 I'd not heard of that before - I was thinking of the time that a contractor's saddle tank was levered down two miles of rural village roads due to the lack of a complete bridge (this was c.1900 in Britain.)

[@TheHandgunhero]

Ice Railways were attempted by the Soviet Union during the Siege of Leningrad by building tracks across the ice of Lake Ladoga, but trucks proved to be better suited instead so the track wasn’t used.

[@MokkaHai]

New vid idea: the garratts (k1 etc...)

[@knuckles1206]

To think of all countries an ice railway would be most common in would be the one infamous for having a big loading gauge

[@edscoble]

Can you make your content inclusive and accessible by formatting the auto captioning into closed captioning? it is sadly very hard to watch relying only on the auto captioning (Im Profoundly Deaf)

[@WhiteJarrah]

Uploaded 13 min ago. I don't usually catch these videos so soon after upload. It's a miracle!

[@TankEngineMedia]

Interesting video and merry Christmas

[@tootired76]

I recently found out a railroad in Browns Valley, Minnesota continued to Lake Traverse for the purpose of harvesting ice. I don't know if they continued it onto the lake for this purpose.

[@asdatrollys8944]

Can we please address that the polar express has independent driving wheels… why is the ability to power just one side a feature that it needed 😂

[@SeaboardStudios]

Correction the info of the poler express at the start of the video the engine was built by Lima not Baldwin btw

[@USS_Grey_Ghost]

I love that Drifting scene it my be fake but it’s still fun

[@tripplexdark7734]

0:05 I CAN HEAR THE EROBEAT ALONG WITH THE JOJO MUSIC IN THE BACKGROUND 😂😂😂✊✊

[@barbaraannen8126]

In Maryland USA we had rails laid every year across ythe susquehanna river

[@Delbert.MP2]

No. 1225 Was Actually Built By Lima, Not Baldwin.

[@jodyreeder4820]

Gives a Ice road truckers feel.

[@Ryder-a-Blaze]

Just like the Polar Express.

[@Uptownloki47]

Uh... The Polar Express is a Lima N1, not a Baldwin S3.

[@oliverthebrblack5330]

THATS SO GENIUS. so the people that made the polar express got inspired by this to do that scene?

[@knutk.dderlein9375]

Near Sulitjelma, Norway, an attempt to run a railroad on ice was made back in 1916 - 1917. Here is a link to a picture and some info (regretfully written in Norwegian only) about the picture (where, when, and how it was taken): digitaltmuseum.no/021015812519/jernbane-pa-isen The link no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulitjelmabanen will give some more info about the railroad "Sulitjelmabanen," the artticle is too long for me to translate it here. Yet I still hope you will find these links useful.

[@doomchap7614]

I just want to say: as a kid I loved the polar express . But to show how much the movie didn’t make sense, even what 4 year old me knew some scenes didn’t make sense

[@lgnatiusReilly]

Merry Christmas

[@pinngg6907]

Just realized you used Jojo theme for that eurobeat lol

[@borissarmatov4391]

Not mentioning the ice railroad built over lake Ladoga during the siege of Leningrad is strange

[@koppadasao]

Ice railways were in unse in Norway as late as the 1950s, at Sulitjelma

[@TechLegendGames]

Its not a Baldwin like know-it-all claims. The Polar Express is actually built by the Lima Locomotive works. Know-it-all also says it was built in 1931, but he was off by a decade, the true date being 1941.

[@k-bot2.047]

Awesome video, very unexpected😄 merry Christmas 🎅🏽🎄🚂

[@In.Darkness]

Merry Christmas !🇨🇦

[@najiyahwilliams731]

Wait a second if the Polar Express is a magic train then can it stretch???

[@Pensyfan19]

Question: did you have the idea to create this video before December 15th? I uploaded a video on the exact same topic on that date. If not, then glad to know I inspired an episode of your series. Thank you for going more in depth about the specific operations for these instances, since I couldn't fit that into my 1 minute limit of Train Facts.

[@rmgilyard]

I knew the Polar Express had some hint of realism, although if h it was directly 150 years ago.

[@amyrodgers4252]

Be thankful none of these incidents took place in the 2000s, or else some of the cab crews would've tried tokyo-drifting

[@martinsto8190]

if only humanity got to have a second little ice age

[@joeythecat7482]

The engine the Polar Express is based on was actually a Lima build

[@sr2971]

How thick was that ice again!?!?

[@The_L-3C_Pro]

Interesting

[@DeletedExpiration]

aye i made it early, this is gonna be great

[@williampulfer-melville8536]

You said that the engine of the polar express is a Baldwin locomotive well actually it's a Berkshire locomotive