Why Pro Fighting Game Players Are So Obsessed With Tier Lists

[@Za_Phantom]

Smash players love the "this character isn't top 3, they're top 4" argument. Every. Time.

[@epicgamerman2510]

I feel this is 100% a melee thing, as it’s a more established game (with way less characters) and therefore the order “matters” more, or at least is more set in stone. Ultimate I have found this to be much less of an issue, as someone who has been very entrenched in both communities.

[@Za_Phantom]

@@epicgamerman2510 from my experience in ultimate, people REALLY care about the placements of the top 20 and within the 20 each incriment of 5 until top 10, then every placement matters. It feels so redundant sometimes.

[@harpot678]

​@@Za_Phantom This is true about top 20

[@TaulantDomi]

Smash players in general I've found to be very argumentative and semantic

[@Creative_Joke]

Top players vs tier lists is a 9-1 matchup

[@cylondorado4582]

It’s always funny when you run into someone who read a tier list and picked the good character, but they have no idea why the character is good.

[@sjohntube]

Every tier list needs Sentinel and Roll added for scale.

[@janematthews9087]

As someone once said. "People accuse me of being carried. And they're right! I got carrier! I GOT CARRIED TO FIRST PLACE!"

[@Living_Target]

Ivy schools metaphor a masterpiece

[@quarterscarlet]

Craziest tier list obsession is when it’s old games where the tiers are already established but C character is somehow top tier

[@lucaslennan3356]

I want to start seeing tier lists that rank things like: The Meta (the characters that are overtuned compared to the rest of the cast) Good matchups (characters that may not have extreme strengths but matchup well in the meta) Fine (worse version of better characters but still threatening) Struggles (core weaknesses) Can't (no one is in this tier in a modern game)

[@AirLancer]

...That's what tier lists already are. The letters actually do have a meaning, one that's been generally lost as tier lists got abused.

[@tldreview]

Because its free KZbin moneyz and twitter interactions duh. I would know, i run an unsuccessful enterprise myself

[@lordknightclips7878]

On this, a lot of high level players don't focus on improving on YT, so they do what they know works imo

[@tldreview]

@@lordknightclips7878 oh it wasn't a jab or anything, I was just being facetious. Also I love watching random tier list videos lol so keep them coming

[@Josie.770]

LK is just a Sajam watch party channel now

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

You should check out Sajam's video on the broken fighting game moves video =D

[@larv23]

Oh so he's a Sajam fan now huh? Ok.

[@EarthLordCJ]

@@larv23I can’t stand that Sajam kid!

[@eliholland1365]

@@larv23 Bro 😂

[@raidennc]

Your "mean take" is accurate. Games being more accessible means idiots feel more qualified to share their uninformed opinions

[@androgynousaardvark7415]

I still struggle to see Zangief as being in the top 5 (though it's easier to see now that I'm learning some of his setup), but Sajam makes a good point about saying stuff like "he's not top 5; he's top 6, boiling down to downplaying, or at least coming off that way. And you make a good point about arguments about characters carrying the player being more relevant at mid tier. I'm only platinum I, and I feel like other characters benefit from having more well rounded gameplay than Zangief. At the same time, I was absolutely carried to platinum by Zangief because people in gold and below just don't know how to deal with SPD.

[@saetzero_the_moon_king]

All i ever think about tiers is simple If you do the letter ranking. If you honestly put someone in B or above..... They are fine enough. And if you disagree, pick someone stronger than them. Below B then we can talk that the character needs help. Most the people these days never seen a real D or lower tier character. Yall have no idea.

[@HellecticMojo]

I honestly can't tolerate B. B feels like a bad oversight. C and below are hilariously bad. You basically are playing for humiliation and memes with zero pressure to succeed if you play C and below. B is the awful mediocrity of imbalance where character has too many issues that it just feels bad to play. It's the type of bad where it feels like the Devs either didn't understand your character or just forgot about it.

[@IC-23]

​@HellecticMojo So you're the person than thinks B=Bad... When people try to get this point accross they start adding S/SS/SSS/EX tiers where if you changes the letters the overwhelming majority of characters would be B instead of A+++ just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it's called being fair

[@HellecticMojo]

@@IC-23 A is not broken. It's just you not understanding proper scale

[@IC-23]

@@HellecticMojo where did I say A was broken Also A is quite literally the top of a standard S-F tierlist and of anything S is a superfluous tier and C should be average B should be considered "strong" and A should be reserved for the Cream of the crop and S should be reserved for fluke characters like Vergil in MvC3 scaling is relative based on the list if SSSSS Hyper Deluxe Super EX is smack dab in the middle you know mean average but people like hype so tierlists add unnecessary tiers that just end up as equivalent to A B C etc

[@HellecticMojo]

@@IC-23 Bruh, you make zero sense. Calling A a literal top of a S-F tierlist when S is the literal top. You really don't understand any form of scale. You also implied that A is broken by trying to argue that B is fair because it isn't broken. If that's the only argument for distinguishing B from other tiers then others have to be broken.

[@Blustride]

Every time I see a Strive tier list I think “Hell yeah, honest mid-tier Giovanna”

[@axis8396]

I honestly don't care all that much about character strength as long as they aren't trash. But I also understand that my, and frankly the vast majority of the playerbase's, skill is not good enough for that to matter in a large majority of situations. Like I've been playing MBAACC again recently and you can definitely feel a difference going from C-Red Arc to C-Arcueid or Hime or something but I also understand that I'm nowhere near good enough for character power to be the sole factor or at least enough of a determining factor in my losses for it to really matter. Maybe I'm just getting old and tired of those debates tbh

[@BHS289]

The collective effort to downplay Ken only for him to get buffed has definitely made me wonder about my upplay style

[@Ilovevidgames123]

I think it's more like the FGC is tier-list obsessed, and because the FGC constitutes their streaming viewerbase, tournament goers, etc., basically the ultimate source of all the money they make, pro fighting game players have to play into the tier-list obsession a little bit.

[@NeightrixPrime]

I like tier lists overall, but having 3 levels of S-tier is like their brain is stuck in hyperbole mode. S-tier is supposed to be for actual broken stuff that overwhelms most other options.

[@TonyTheTGR]

A couple months ago I was doing a weird retrospective - not entirely sure of what I'm doing with it yet - but a LOT of competitive FGs can really be "defined" by their Top 9 characters, aside from maybe KOF XV or SFxT (which I capped at 18 and 12, respectively). Which, analyzing Top 16s as the basis, makes some sense. Do you think competitive FGs can be streamlined to a MegaMan-sized Character Select Screen? Would this be a good thing if we did that? The other side of this is, how much weight do we attribute to the character, and how much to the player? Nobody in KOF XV would say Chizuru is a Top 10; but if you judge them based on Seis MX piloting her, she's an absolute MONSTER. It's almost like watching Marvel 2 Sentinel in the game; but you don't see this duplicated outside of them, or maybe one other player to a signficantly lesser degree.

[@lordknightclips7878]

I guess you could, that would be a fun way to do a retrospective. On the subject of player vs char, basically the stronger the char is, the more they carry (we want to be carried). The weaker the char, the more the player has to carry, and sometimes you have to overcome a lot, either having to take big risks, be correct more, etc. The dream and what makes international champions is a ridiculous player on a ridiculous character.

[@FloydianHate]

1) you're right about all of this 2) your mic is killing me

[@SomniaCE]

14:30 This is just the ultimate example of people being reactionary when discussing game balance. The patch hits, characters get noticeably worse but they were shit players who STILL can't do much better against the characters so the idea of the character being nerfed feels odd. The amount of ownership you have to take to admit that JP dropped 10 spots on the tier list but still beats your ass is absurd.

[@zeywop]

wish i could catch the stream more but glad this channel exists for me to get a piece of it now and then

[@tokyobassist]

Characters in SF6 are unique but they are heavily bound to the system mechanics and in turn makes specific kind of tools crucial to playing the meta. I'm half and half on it personally but that's why people think the characters feel the same. Every character relies on cancellable low in Drive Rush even when they have unique interactions around it the resource (Terry being able to use Drive meter for Twin Geyser, AKI's being at her strongest when an opponent is burned out, etc.).

[@CatChat240p]

Everyone complains about HC. LK complains about Faust

[@KanaKevyn]

Brand new sf6 played, Ive only played pcgames like CSGO, LoL, Valorant and OW2. Its such an interesting dynamic to understand tierlists and community sentiment compared to other genres. In LoL we understand that this character is top tier for this patch and itll die next update. We have a selection of tools that we can pick and choose each update knowing they wont be this strong again.

[@culturemanoftheages]

Zato players have never been honest about their character.

[@TheWestto]

Because tier lists are low effort, zero creativity, recyclable every few months, brain rot, engagement bait, and easy views/money content (not knocking it, get the bag). Nothing positive has ever come from tier lists IMO, and I personally actively mute and block tier list words from showing on my twitter. I only think a decent purpose of them, is for a new player trying out a new game, to get a general idea of character strength, and that's it.

[@ScaredEz]

I’m super lucky because almost in every fg I play, the character that I like the most is just top tier or just straight up top 1. So, whenever someone complains about my character I just get giddy and laugh about it. Because I agree and I don’t care since I’m having fun.

[@muckdriver]

The only time a tier matters is bottom tier and top tier named after a character or a billion + or - signs.

[@CF565]

Following discourse around SF6 had been crazy- people are completely unhinged- the frothing rage around throw loops alone is enough to write the whole lot off as way too lost in the sauce.

[@B1gLupu]

I feel like in Tekken 8, there are no bad characters. The only exeception is Panda, which is just Kuma but with a worse Heat. Every character is dangerous and there are no easy matchups.

[@lordknightclips7878]

Go watch the original here! - kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6TTq6F7rLKpo7c (also pls subscribe)

[@jpVari]

I'm so glad to know, and be at a level where there's no doubt, that it's my play nit my character. The best in the world, that's probably a hard thing to know Edit - but I'd really like my season 1 jp back. He was my first top tier pick on launch. I play jp and Ryu and things used to be so good... At least they're both super fun in s2.

[@absoul112]

12:55 I 100% agree

[@Franko_L_L]

5 is truly the magic number

[@affinity601]

goats in uni 2 winning with Gordeau mirrors breaking the statistics

[@aganaom1712]

Content farming aside People are generally more aware now that a tier list isn't very meaningful on its own and shouldn't be taken at face value what it claims since it doesn't give a complete picture. What it does still do is provide data about what people think of its associated game state and as such should be treated as part of a larger sample of data so as to synthesize a table of what a potentially more desirable game state could look like to, ideally the greatest portion of the player population In short. I think people should still do it. It gets people talking, and while the noise can get loud, having some form of feedback for the devs to draw from is always better for the devs to have than to just hear silence on the other end

[@catinacafe7105]

Mmmm ok here me out i have pro to back me on this. Idom has also said this has a lot of characters that play very similar i agree heavily. Sf6 has such overwhelming good mechanics that your literally fighting the same gameplan for each character. In neutral youd be hard pressed to find someone whos not spamming a medium button while buffer drive rush.

[@xerker4147]

Legit just had a whole conversation about tier lists just yesterday how topical lol

[@abrittishpanfish6269]

SF6, the game with roughly 15 top 5 characters

[@Nimrod336]

Bro, a panda player won evo..in this day and age most characters are for the most part are even. It's not like 30 yrs ago where characters where trash ect..

[@akasajian]

Gotta reduce the gain on that mic, bro.

[@tylercafe1260]

Fighting games need a bit of homogenization. After all the unique character traits there has to be an actual "game". You don't want to make them so bland people can't see the difference but at the same time you don't want to make another Videl who just straight up missing a universal system mechanic. Simple traits like "reach" vs "grabs" will create a lot of diverse gameplay in itself. You really don't need to do a lot to make them stand out. Ryu and Ken are very similar shotos but standout due to "relatively" minor differences.

[@Kekkai_]

Na I kinda understand tho. As a Tekken player there are a lot of strong characters but Top 1 and 2 are obvious but 3-5 can be like 7 different characters and they are all valid. I do agree that non-pros obsessing over it is lame shit. The worst part is the game's balance is the best it's ever been but the discourse around tiers is somehow the worst it's ever been. This shit really makes no sense.

[@guga5708156]

I got tired of tier lists, Im playing Marvel Rivals now and EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST JUST STRAIGHT UP SUCKS, either people talk bad about stuff they dont know how to play or counter, or talk to high of something that needs a perfect world and then some to work. And thats ignoring the baits, like people making extreme assumptions and putting on the thumbnail for people to go there and comment how they are wrong to give movement to the channel. I just stopped seeing these videos altogether. On fighting games it is the same thing plus the pros putting they character low on the tier list, and putting the counters high to try to bait enough people to scream it so their character is buffed and the counters nerfed.

[@bug-deal]

yo plok tunes

[@Kirbykid69]

In the past like decade top tier or top 5 or s rank has lost most of its importance, in most games the worst character beating the best character (archetype stuff asside) isn’t impossible like it used to be, using the list in this video if Ryu beats rashid it’s like not this giga upset its pretty normal

[@CutieCakeClips]

Your gain should be much lower.

[@jasonnash4452]

people obsessing over tier lists in video games kill the meaning of video games. have fun.who gives af. you dont get paid to play just chill out bro. lifes not that serious

[@TrueDemonDragon]

LK: "nobody complains about" me how has complained about that character since the dawn of Strive, doesnt play HC and doesnt enter tournaments: 😑

[@broadWayy]

I'd really like to watch the video, but this amount of mic peaking is hurting my ears :(

[@sanicboi9187]

Lower your volume

[@boogit9979]

Only game where the 3rd best character is nowhere near top 2 is MK1 bc that game is trash

[@EvilPineappl]

You are WAY too close to your mic

[@webweaver13s]

Tier lists were way more impactful in older games than newer ones imo. There were some legit unplayable characters in older fighting games.