Why Should We Be Theists?? Call Matt Dillahunty & Forrest Valkai | Sunday Show AFTER DARK 09.22.24

[@seansullivan3666]

06:25 - Riberto - Agnostic (Florida) - Has a question about reincarnation. 16:13 - Thomas - Theist (Washington) - Has doubts and fears about his Christianity. 49:10 - Jon - Theist (Ohio) - Says faith is necessary for morality. 49:45 A M E M E 1:20:48 - Mr Ryan (Canada) - Has evidence for the existence of god. 1:42:30 - K (USA) - Has a question about the soul. 2:06:32 - Marty (Missouri) - Wants to know what evidence is proof enough for a god. 2:48:20 - Jan (Illinois) - Caller can’t stay on the line but the question is, Are science and religion compatible? 2:53:53 - Rolfe - Kentucky - Wants to talk about conversations on religion with religious people. 3:15:05 - Jack (Thailand) - Former Christian wants advice on how to get his family to leave the religion

[@hamhockjenkins]

😘

[@VildhjartaFanGurl]

Thanks king

[@jimmythebold589]

thanks for doing god's work. or not-god's work

[@Salih_Swag]

Thx king, but where's faia tho? Does anyone know?

[@hamhockjenkins]

@@Salih_Swag been wondering that myself.

[@Leith_Crowther]

Matt: How could I not have a good day after talking to Thomas? Narrator: Little did he know, the rest of the night’s callers heard his musing, and they took his words as a challenge.

[@JayMaverick]

Late onslaught of nutters.

[@coeal2680]

why did i read this as Morgan Freeman? 🤣

[@mhavens8532]

@@coeal2680 I did too lmao

[@kainuscorevax3875]

​@@coeal2680Because we all know who the goat narrator is. Morgan Freeman is the only voice of God I will ever acknowledge.

[@jacobismithenshire1238]

@@kainuscorevax3875Jeff Goldblum has had some pretty good god roles. If you haven’t seen Happy! on Syfy, go watch it.

[@Mogdrogen]

Such a great call with Thomas! If I could say one thing to him and others like him, it's that the scary phase passes. For me it was a couple years of back and forth before I could start to deconstruct and it was terrifying. There were times when I even felt as though I was trying to trick myself or I could feel myself wanting to just sink back into the delusion, aware it was a delusion, because it would be comfortable and familiar. Making it to the other side of that struggle is the most transformative thing thats ever happened to me. The peace and clarity it gave me changed my life. Ironically the peace and clarity always just out of reach chasing after this personal relationship with god everyone said I was supposed to have and everyone seemed to have but me. I wish you the best on your journey Thomas!

[@johnrangi4830]

It can be very difficult, thank you for reaching out to Thomas, Hopefully he sees your comment.

[@IRGeamer]

The concept of a "god" that created a world where every single scrap of available evidence for the entire history of human awareness shows the irrefutable consistency of the laws of logic, only to demand that we ignore that logic and accept magic on faith against all available evidence as well as ignore all the rationality and evidence based reasoning that "god" gave us in our brains, that we use to determine everything we consider to be verifiable reality, is just laughably preposterous from a logical reasoning standpoint. If "god" is going to condemn us to eternal suffering for using the brain that he gave us and following the patterns that his "creation" has always, and seemingly always will, manifest, then he is undoubtedly an evil, sadistic and petty monster unworthy of belief, never mind worship. From a purely logical standpoint, the evidence seems to indicate that if there is a god, he set up the world to be a test to determine who is so gullible that they would believe in superstitious, magical nonsense without any logical reasoning so that he can condemn them for not using the brain that he gave them.

[@JayMaverick]

Crazy to hear these stories. As a person who was never indoctrinated, it's impossible to understand the difficulty of getting out of it. Congrats for finding the light.

[@botarakutabi1199]

Reposting Faia's Timestamps again, as they once again aren't showing in regular comments, and it takes forever to scroll to them by newest I really hope this comment shows up correctly (Sorry Faia, it did not) 1:28 Support Roll for InitiaGive

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

Thank you! Rolfe’s call broke me as I know how it is to deal with illness and disabilities around religious (jerks) family members and/friends who don’t seem to notice that they are talking about gods perfect creation blah blah to a person dealing with these issues. It changes everything about one’s self of the world. This was a great episode.

[@freakishuproar1168]

Thanks for doing that, I can't seem to find Faia's posts recently. Hope she's good.

[@tahllaz]

Not gonna lie but I felt emotional listening to Thomas’s call . Thanks Matt and Forest for such support

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

This show and the places it links people like Thomas to is a really valuable service to the community. It mustn't be easy when your world view crumbles before your eyes.

[@TrishRyan-ey8go]

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Thomas I grew up extremely Catholic graduated from The Catholic University of America!🇺🇸 Infact, I have a downs syndrome brother named Thomas we adopted from Catholic Charities! I am in your exact position!❤❤ It takes a ton of courage to “ come out” proud of you! Fight through the pain as U am! The truth ❤😂 that is what I want and no signs of what we were taught ❤

[@ericfurman5227]

Thomas was one of the best calls I’ve heard in a long while. I hope he calls in again

[@CocoTheDiamond]

really good show!

[@JBProject2]

The callers are embarrassing the Christian people, and the downfall is happening right in front of us. Hailz to these heros, Matt and Forrest.

[@brandontankersley8107]

Thomas certainly gives hope in light of the insanity that's gripped many religious folks.

[@GiggsVids]

Really one of those "There is till good out there" moments, listening to callers and convos like this!

[@vortexlegend101]

My two favorite hosts for almost 4 hours?!! Love this.

[@secularteejay]

The Thomas call is evidence that these shows have positive impacts on people! What a productive and effective call! Thanks Matt and Forrest!

[@colaboytje]

To Faia: are you ok?

[@coeal2680]

Faia is fine and posting Time Stamps as usual. youtube (my own conspiracy) is burying comments with unusual number of time stamps. because youtube wants that sweet sweet ad rev and you deny them that by watching only the hot takes part of the show

[@colaboytje]

@@coeal2680 And so does The Line, not only youtube. I'm not saying that that is a bad thing. It's a shame, as Faia is an awesome person. Faia deserves to be the first comment every time. I'm glad that Faia is ok.

[@moodyrick8503]

I saw that she left a comment in the earlier show with Seth & Paul, where she said that she did not know why her upload only showed up when she clicked on "sort by/new". If that's the case, it would have been buried deep down in the comments list, by the time I checked. That was at least several hrs ago, and even that comment was approx 20 comments down, then. I've heard them mention Faia before, yet they never pin her list. I consider what she does to be a valuable service.

[@_Stargazer_.]

I think these ppl themselves are deleting his comment, for whatever reason .. Dont think youtube deletes comments with timestamps.

[@Appletank8]

baffling, when I edit a comment to add timestamps, it gets sent to the shadow realm.

[@KeplersDream]

I never believed in reincarnation in my previous life, either.

[@johnnehrich9601]

LOL

[@TracedaBassman]

That’s so funny! What a great way to end my day. Thanks so much.

[@__j_o_s__]

😂😂😂😂

[@VestalNumbre]

The First of Samuel 31 Now the Phi·lisʹtines were fighting against Israel.+ And the men of Israel fled from before the Phi·lisʹtines, and many fell slain on Mount Gil·boʹa.+ 2

[@TiKallisti]

@@VestalNumbre Do you need help? Did you have a stroke or something?

[@劉炎-p9z]

Every time a theist says 'I was an atheist just like you' before they make their arguments, I want to scream 'no, you were an atheist perhaps, but nothing like me'

[@JayMaverick]

But were they an inner circle atheist, that's the real question.

[@nicolab2075]

​​@@JayMaverickQuite. Were they hardcore, that's the thing.

[@dylanpatterson7149]

I am saying the same thing. They don’t understand the difference between not believing in a god because you haven’t looked into any gods. And looking into god claims skeptically and rejecting them because they don’t meet the burden of proof. I don’t know how they don’t see the difference or if they’re just oblivious to it.

[@machineelf9459]

I was an atheist all my life and you atheists don’t believe I was a real atheist when I say I now know of a God for rational reasons. Why do you hate on the Christian’s for the no true scottsman fallacy but so many of you do it to us? Ask me what you want to test me. I was an atheist and I’m sure I can prove it to you if you ask about me. Stop assuming you know everything. Don’t be like the theists as well. We can all understand each other if we try to listen.

[@LHRPG_Official]

It's my opinion that most theists that say they used to be atheists are lying.

[@Locust13]

Marty: "mathematics is universal in everyone's mind" Um, Terrence Howard and the fools who follow him prove that's not correct

[@gnosticacademy]

Just because people can do bad math, doesn't negate the point, bro.

[@joemiller7082]

@@gnosticacademy If an intelligent designer designed a language that people would use incorrectly, it looks like a poor design. It is t a good enough point to need negation. But it isn’t a good point to begin with. He did nothing to disqualify the chance of it just happening. The first thing, the only really important thing, is to remove alternatives. He didn’t even try to do that.

[@johnscarsandstuff]

The call with Thomas was one of the most heartwarming things I've watched in a long time. Many theist pastors, counsellors and youth workers could learn a lot about empathy from the way Matt and Forrest conducted themselves. Thomas, as an ex believer, it can get better. You aren't alone. I hope you will call into the show again, and I'm sure your call will help the many people who are suffering in silence with the same doubt you have.

[@maxptyson6522]

LOL

[@freakishuproar1168]

@@maxptyson6522 "LOL" as in "LOL this theism malarkey is insidiously life ruining, I'm glad Thomas is finding his way out of it" or is it more "LOL ME AM CHRISTIAN YOU BIG ATHEIST WORDS NO MAKE GOD GO AWAY"?

[@brianw.5230]

Thomas sounds like he's suffering with the emptiness of atheism.

[@forbiddenmonk]

ok why is it everyone who puts 'none' as their pronouns is physically incapable of having an honest conversation?

[@FoxTrotter07]

There's some strong correlation there lol

[@LaSerpentDEden]

They don't understand how words work, hence they think they don't use pronouns

[@chelseawales1090]

This entire comment section is rooting for Thomas, and it’s such a lovely thing to see.

[@facundotorres175]

I want to see him finger Jesus

[@fastfingers7886]

Brilliant Conversation with Thomas! Thank You So Much! LovePeaceL8r... (from Amsterdam/the Netherlands) 😉🙏🏼🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹❤️

[@elmartell5724]

@Thomas I still struggle with the guilt of being raised as a wyt supremacist- but it gets easier. Hang in there kid- there are incredible things in this world, and now you get to go explore them without looking over your shoulder constantly. ❤ Now go help someone else be brave enough to think.

[@Heathen.Deity.]

Mr Ryan not even understanding how abstract concepts aren’t an existent thing sums up their whole call.

[@davidinsf2680]

Point to the place on the map, where philosophy is located..

[@Heathen.Deity.]

@@davidinsf2680 😂

[@davidinsf2680]

@@Heathen.Deity. eggzactly

[@Julian0101]

I loved how the moment forrest sussed out his script, ryan choose to make things up about the hosts instead of sticking to his argument, almost as if intuitively he knew he had to derail the call to not be legit standing as the tool he is.

[@CocoTheDiamond]

this was one of the best shows in a while for the concepts Matt and Forrest were both explaining. i learned some new shit and clarified some old shit. thanks to (most of) the callers for asking pretty good questions and sparking good discussion! i believe the whole of human kind was moved forward a fraction of a millimeter bc of todays show.

[@donkeybutt678]

I agree 100%. Learned something new about myself and the world from Thomas’s call and K’s. I only listened halfway through last night but gonna listen to it all again (plus the new stuff) - except that dudes call who was dodging left and right - that was PAINFUL

[@artemisnite]

Ironically finally shedding the church's lies actually felt like being born again. Finally free to live MY life. Not some threemale patriarchal gawd's. And what a beautiful thing to hear you guys logically bringing this caller to a place of truly forgiving himself. Best call I've ever heard. ❤

[@machineelf9459]

@@artemisnite so you believe logic right? There’s a lot more we can know if we can trust logic. I am currently unloved by theists and atheists because I stand between in a way they both fear. But im just trying to bring harmony to all people. I can get through to Christian’s and make them see reason. Im doing it every day. Im doing that by recognizing what they have right and showing them how to know what is true. You cant treat theists well only after they agree with you. I’m hoping you will keep an open mind. I’m not trying to tell people what to think I want to teach how to think. We are almost there.

[@presidentobummer447]

@@machineelf9459 What do we have to believe logic and why do we fear you?

[@machineelf9459]

@@presidentobummer447 why do we have to believe logic? Because it’s the structure of thought, you do it whether you like it or not. You just have incomplete information which can lead to wrong conclusions. But all people use their logic to discern what is true, the people that don’t recognize just haven’t learned epistemology to tell easily what is true. Theist fear me because I can prove their are wrong. Atheists fear me because I can show there is a God. Not the God from the Bible. But something real. But so far you atheists, like I did myself, know so much horror from history that men have done in the name of God that you instantly see me as human trash (not all). And you don’t try to listen to what I am saying. God isn’t something supernatural and 90% of people don’t know what they are talking about. Naturally. We all thought the earth was flat once. Atheists more than anyone on earth think they know everything, but you project that onto theists when they actually believe they know next to nothing. Theists don’t have good epistemology because they believe false things. Most atheists don’t have good epistemology because they don’t know how to be sure of anything. You can be sure of the law of noncontradiction (which i can back up if people will listen…) and from there logically deduce quite a lot. Including that there is an emergent mind of all reality. A union of conscious beings in the future. Thus union is happening now and happens one person at a time. Those who realize we are all connected through time. I can describe how God is scientific. But you have to be open. And atheists are more closed than anyone on the planet because they think they are the most open minded of all. Try Buddhists. They are actually the most open to new ideas. I was an atheist all my life until I discovered how to tell truth. I know how you think better than you may care to admit. That’s where the fear comes in. That maybe your certainty isn’t so sure after all.

[@freakishuproar1168]

I'm really rooting for that Thomas caller, I felt genuinely sorry for him. I really liked what Matt had to say about Thomas's feelings of guilt for things he used to believe. If Christianity is correct and that everything happens according to god's plan and under god's purview, then none of us could ever take any credit for anything we achieve, but more crucially we could be blamed for anything either. Theists _really_ seem to underestimate exactly what an omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent being would entail, and they rarely seem to grasp how uniquely burdened with a responsibility and accountability a god with those traits would be. That world would be an abject nightmare.

[@Xynth22]

I think Forrest hit the nail on the head with K. It isn't that they can't understand what Forrest and Matt was talking about, they just want to feel special, and giving up their beliefs makes them feel like they won't be special.

[@GoodieWhiteHat]

Yes there is a loss of that “selfness” and if you think that humans are fundamentally different from animals and have an essence rooted in a permanent solidity so that even if you lose your marbles you’ll still remain intact in some realm, when you lose that, there is a great feeling of being adrift and lost and small.

[@catalhuyuk7]

@@Xynth22 As one dude put it in response to people being entitled or feeling special, “You’re the froth in your own cappuccino. No one cares but you.”

[@andrewgreaves56]

I feel so much for Thomas. I really hope to hear from him again when he’s had time to find some peace.

[@cjinoc71]

I just wanted to give Thomas a huge hug and let him know to keep moving on his questioning things.

[@johngolden5257]

Faia is so terribly missed.

[@VanHalenIsolated]

Faia posted time stamps. Click “Newest” and scroll down for a bit.

[@seansullivan3666]

@@VanHalenIsolated It got swamped

[@zaphodrahja]

Hey @theline can you please pin Faia's timestamps, they are difficult to find, and while you're there you could possibly pay her something if you don't already, she's very helpful, thanks.

[@alucard2010]

They do that on purpose to make you watch, it raises watch time

[@David34981]

@@alucard2010 I won't watch videos without these timestamps. Atheist calls are almost always boring.

[@alucard2010]

@@David34981 then don't watch. When someone says something is boring, that means they themselves are boring

[@KirinDave]

I really wanna sit Marty down with a book on the history of mathematics. The reason numbers have a correlation with geometry *is because we made geometry to describe the world around us!* We literally know most of the history of that field, with records and names, and yet Marty would argue that actually Euclid's work was inevitable and objective. It's so ridiculous. And I can't help but feel sad that hosts aren't equipped to point out that we do in fact have the ability to separate, taxonomize, and manipulate the properties of numbers. The fact that we have multiple sets of numbers we use under different conditins that *have different properties*. We even have an everyday useful example of how we grafted a useful property onto common arithmetic for exotic problems: imaginary numbers. Those exist alongside our common fields because we fiat-ed them thay way. The history of that decision was well understood. It doesn't mean imaginary numbers are a gateway to a divine or platonic realm. Ughhh, Marty. Pick up a number theory book. Pick up an abstract algebra book. Read anything besides presup blogs.

[@Sage-Thyme]

It's nice to see the theists doing to your understanding of mathematics what they do to my understanding of biology. It's good to share the silliness. But on a less silly note, I think it's because their worldview promotes the idea that everything just poofed into existence. There's no hard won knowledge, no standing on the shoulders of numerous giants, no hard graft,winning knowledge piece by piece over generations. For them, everything is already known and revealed. Because of that they miss the nuance of a subject, the steps that build the path. Then they jump to silly conclusions that just don't make sense to anyone versed in that field.

[@nikolatesla5553]

When you get down to it. Marty is making a "look at the tree#" argument. Math is so perfect that there can be no other explanation than a being did it. When in fact this is just the way it works. Why,? We do not know. But not knowing does not allow us to "fill in the blanks."

[@marymegrant9438]

@@Sage-Thyme To my mind, complex numbers are simply an extension of the number system in the same way that fractional numbers, negative numbers and irrational numbers are. They are no less "real" than the numbers we call Real numbers. These ideas are not universal. Half a cow is not a cow!

[@marymegrant9438]

Oops, I hit enter too soon and my tablet won't let me edit my previous comment. I am not finding fault with your comment, but adding my own reaction. The various Axiomatic Systems are beyond my understanding, but the fact that mathematicians still are tweaking them is evidence to me that math is NOT universal. I wonder what the caller would make of non-Euclidean geometry and transfinite numbers? (Simply and inadequately put, transfinite numbers show that there are different sizes of infinity.)

[@shodan6401]

FOREST, HERE IS THE WHOLE MICROTUBULE IDEA: Yeah, Forest, John (OH) was referring to this idea that Roger Penrose came up with (he was a recipient of the Nobel Prize). He has a concept of atoms passing through microtubules that are in the brain, at which point there is a collapse of the superposition of a Quantum wave function, which then results in a change in a brain state that then is expressed as a decision. There are a few interviews in which he offers this idea, though I have not bothered to watch them, as it is literally just speculation. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating that there are atoms in a state of superposition that pass through these microtubule structures at which point there is a collapse of the Quantum wave state. Perhaps there will be some investigation along these lines, but as of now, it's just a thought experiment and offers no evidence. Like a multiverse, it's a cool idea, but that's about it.

[@stephenhenderson5128]

Sometimes I wish Matt would help the caller rather than yell at them. I get that he’s trying to get to succinct points and going through a specific methodology - and he’s REALLY good at it - but Jon did not seem to be purposefully dodging. He seemed to be just not good at operating in Matt’s space. GFYJ.

[@joncraven6524]

We have two lives and the second begins when we realize we only have one Confucius

[@TrevonFoxxx]

Oooooo now this is a great quote

[@themartialartsapproach8786]

Matt. I'm gonna be zen. Matt, 16 seconds later 🤯😡

[@svenw-u3f]

did he say for how long?

[@FirstALittleBackground]

Also, that's not what the hell "zen" means. I cringe when Westerners use "zen" to mean relaxed/chilled-out. As Matt would say about the claim that "God is love" (and he's right--we already have "love," there's no good rationale to slap a god label on it), we already have the word relaxed, we don't need the extra baggage/problematic-exoticising of adding the concept of "zen" onto it.

[@svenw-u3f]

Will you need an ambulance 🚑?

[@themartialartsapproach8786]

@@FirstALittleBackground your comment is what's cringe.

[@FirstALittleBackground]

@@themartialartsapproach8786 nah, it's not

[@jmdesmarais058]

Thomas, I hope you start to feel better after this call. Good job Matt and Forest. These are the callers and calls I like to hear.

[@pucktholinder3692]

Mathematics is a language. The great thing about mathematics is the thoughts we can express with the language of mathematics and how mathematical models can help us understand our world.

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

I want to speak math but it's the most difficult one of the 5 I've spoken.

[@TheLevantin]

But it has a structure, which means that an infinite being must have created it and we are only discovering it. If I build a table, I didn't build it, I just discovered it. makes sense, doesn't it?

[@joemiller7082]

@@TheLevantin no. No it doesn’t.

[@TheLevantin]

@@joemiller7082 I was being sarcastic.

[@presidentobummer447]

How do you say in maths: I am President Obummer and I seek our gord believers and use votebots to downrate their videos?

[@LaughingSkull451]

I got chills all throughout Thomas' call. Such a good fucking call. I wish him all the best and hope he's doing good.

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

marty was so painful to listen to in his ignorance of math, blatant fallacies and unsupported assertions.

[@gnosticacademy]

Your comment was painful to read.

[@boblangford5514]

@@gnosticacademyOh, you sure showed him! 🙄

[@Iamthebigcheeze]

@@gnosticacademy gnostic Christians are idiots which is why they all died out.

[@dylanpatterson7149]

@@gnosticacademycalm down edge lord

[@ExcelsiorUnltd]

Great show! Thanks to everyone at the line

[@fekinel]

Congratulations Thomas, you passed the gullibility test..you now have control of your life..good luck m8 .. enjoy🍻

[@sashakononova8968]

Marty: as a math phd stuff, most math isn't about numbers. It's about coming up with constructs (groups, rings, metric spaces, function spaces, fields, algorithms) and seeing which hypotheses are necessary to get nice properties. Sometimes all this corresponds to something useful in reality. I took a bunch of qualifying exams/practicing exams and the vast majority of problems contained no numbers.

[@chadwulk9028]

I would like to see these math problems that involves no numbers lol (I’m not doubting you just genuinely curious)

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

​@@chadwulk9028 xc+y-z=x

[@AmyGrape-wc9uy]

I copy and pasted Faia's timestamps in this comment thread. I hope this will show up easier since its a smaller comment.... As always, for the T.S. Faia! And Great show 2nite :)

[@AmyGrape-wc9uy]

I really hope this comment shows up correctly 1:28 Support Roll for InitiaGive

[@VanHalenIsolated]

Thank you for posting. It’s easier to see with the big bold blue Time Stamps. I didn’t think Faia posted them because I didn’t see the bright bold blue time stamps in the original comment. I’m glad I saw this though. Thank you so much!

[@papaver5]

I wish to express the sentiments of others as well. Faia are you OK. We need you and love you. I hope all is well.

[@fasillimerick7394]

WHERE THE FUCK IS FAIA! NOTHING MAKES SENSE WITHOUT HER!

[@dannolte5384]

Jack, my heart goes out to you. I wish you all the luck in the world with your kids. You're 15 years behind, so asking them questions designed to get them to think about "how do you know this is true?" which will strengthen their critical thinking skills. My kids were born into an atheist family, but that's what I did with them as they grew up.

[@ReiperX]

Thomas, I think you're on a good path, its just going to take time and that's ok. You'll get there when you're there and please reach out to secular therapy or other resources to help you. There is nothing wrong with needing help

[@fakegamingnerd]

wrt to marty claiming that numbers have order, whether or not something is ordered is determined by the lens u chose to view it. 1,2,3,4,5 is ordered if u decide to view it in numerical order, but unordered if you chose to view it by how many lines they have. Order is not an innate quality, order can only be seen when u chose a viewpoint.

[@tornoutlaw73]

I like that Forest. The way you explain truth, makes more sense to me now. I give you a gold star ⭐️

[@rosetherealtor3182]

I relate so much to the second caller. I separated from religion starting 5 years ago but became "official" about maybe a year ago. It felt incredibly painful. I felt so saddened that this was it. Never going to see these faces again. After being lied to my whole life about a wonderful place we all go to after death, I almost wanted to submerge myself more into delusion because it was more "comforting" so to speak. But I have come to terms with it more and more.

[@Skullgoroth666]

"Heaven is mind, consciousness, everything that's not material." I dont know why he didn't own it, but Jon said it.

[@cnybbles]

To save you some scrubbing, Jon did say at: 1:11:43 "I said heaven is mind, consciousness, everything that's not material"

[@themasterone16]

I think it’s important to learn some skepticism to battle against dogma. The risk for people who were religious is that they might believe others too easily

[@k.s.k.7721]

The call from "K" was reminiscent of my first studies of Buddhism, which denies the existence of a "self" or a soul and leads practitioners to examine the layers of their consciousness. All are encouraged to find for themselves that "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". Form is a condtionally arisen thing, therefore in Buddhism there is no true "essence" to it.

[@TracedaBassman]

I enjoy the after dark shows, but I work nights, so it’s usually after the fact. I have learned quite a bit about logic from Matt and some biology from Forrest. And when Forrest points out that if God did the things they claim, he would be a monster, and Forrest would be his enemy, I smile, and remind myself to use that. It is pretty close to the perfect answer to these people

[@Nocturnalux]

It has always been my stance on god, ever since I was a young child: resistance as the only moral option. The difference is that I no longer believe god exists but this was my attitude when I did think it did.

[@weldeddaydreams]

Thomas. Mate. My heart goes out to you. I know its hard, just keep being honest with yourself.

[@elgatosamurai9517]

Greetings to my favorite hosts From California with Love ✌️

[@Panther448]

As a very young child back when my parents "discovered" religion, my very first question was "If there is God the father and God the son, WHO is the mother 29:33 ?" I got a very wierd answer to which I no longer remember, but my question has always been the same

[@anthonycraig274]

Wow! I just witnessed a brain being born. Hearing someone begin to critically think is a wonderful thing. Good luck Thomas, now make a wonderful life.

[@jayhei869]

Marty: "when you say Math is just numbers" Forest literally said at the begining of the call that math and numbers aren't the same thing.

[@JayMaverick]

Theists getting confused over simple math is the funniest thing.

[@mezzymoon3343]

Every damn time!!!!!!!!

[@brucebaker810]

A theist walks into a bar. And hurts his damn head. (On the difference between real and conceptual).

[@PK_1024]

It looked like Roberto thought he had a good reason, but he realises he's not capable to weigh the reasons why it's a good or bad reason, so he wanted to talk to others before completely believing in it. But I don't know the post history with the caller, if he's doing this repeatedly maybe he should start learning to use Google, unless he's finding a new reason no one thought about every time.

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

K should read more studies of persons whose personalities (“souls”) have changed dramatically after a brain injury. She wants to know where our “essence” is and she thinks it exists somewhere - it isn’t a thing that exists consistently. That essence can change dramatically after an injury or a brain tumor for example.

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

Sorry I meant to add that K can also read studies etc of people with dementia or Alzheimer’s as they also are no longer “themselves” when the disease advances. I think she may not fully appreciate how radically brain issues affect any “essence” or “soul”

[@moodyrick8503]

Yes indeed. _(no ghost in the machine/brain)_ We currently have zero evidence, that a _thinking conscience mind_ could exist separate from, a _living functioning brain._ (you are your brain & your brain is you)

[@ExcelsiorUnltd]

On the Mr. Ryan call Forrest is remembering her call the same way I do.

[@mainecoonmami]

This WA caller needs to join deconstruction groups and we can meet for coffee or hike.The only relatable biblical characters to me were Thomas and Job.

[@nickguy8037]

The serpent who keeps telling the truth has a few things going for him.

[@stephensherburne831]

Solomon seemed to generally grasp what existence is all about. I can't fathom the desire to keep a thousand women on deck... (as I typed that out I realized it might be a lie) but I definitely feel like I would deeply enjoy an extended conversation with him on metaphysics.

[@melkhiresa]

For me it was lot's wife. Genesis 19 was I think the first one I read that really made me think about God's cruelty. I still remember crying to my mom because I was worried God was going to kill me for some small thing like looking over my shoulder lol

[@stephensherburne831]

@melkhiresa 5/6/7 year-old me was just upset that, apparently, they just left her there. A couple of years later in my 5th grade at our Christian school, I did a report on how scarce salt was in Mesopotamia, and included an exhaustive list of the myriad post-mortem applications she could have been useful for - from sentimental keepsake, to cheesy salt lamp, to salt lick for the herd. Looking back, I see a glaring hint that I was fundamentally too rational and utilitarian to successfully maintain a genuine belief in such fantastical lore.

[@al4nmcintyre]

​@@melkhiresaAs someone who was also prone to worrying about being punished for small violations, I tend to think that reaction is the desired outcome for a lot of Bible stories. If you're terrified of breaking even the smallest rule,you won't have time to question the belief system as a while.

[@DreamcastLoL]

Can the hosts ask a caller who seems to not be listening to a question asked of them: "What are you doing right now that you are unable to hear my question and answer it?"

[@DeeDeeBaldwin]

I was able to skip the scary part of losing my belief because I had stopped believing in hell at least a decade before I let go of the god belief. All I felt was tremendous relief at unloading a ton of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. Love to you, Thomas!

[@Nick-Nasti]

Jon, when approaching the “archetype” theory consider a person born and raised alone in an island. Do they recognize archetypes? If “no”, it’s a societal concept that is taught, not inherited.

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

Marty seemed to be arguing that numbers are somehow Platonic - he kept blowing right past the basic fact that mathematics is a *learned language* using signs (semiotics)

[@mactallica9293]

It's very clear that he was not listening to anything

[@auxensiotembo4471]

Matt you're my favourite Atheist, someone of the callers in the previous Sunday show where supposed to be tackled by you especially a guy called "Kelvin.

[@shodan6401]

The argument is literally: An infinite number line means that there is an infinitely intelligent being. Which is dum-de-dum-de-dum-dum-dum....

[@sashakononova8968]

What marty is missing is you CAN change the properties of numbers. You can come up with mathematical objects where two nonzero things multiply and you get 0 (eg matrices). Or objects where anything added to itself 3 times is 0. Or where multiplication isn't commutative. You can define all these things and they'll have different properties and different relationships with reality.

[@riccardozanoni2531]

It's funny how someone can base their entire argument on their misunderstanding of a certain topic and be just SO adamant in defending their ignorance. "oh, but if numbers were made up, we would be able to manipulate them" we do, constantly, there's an entire field of math dedicated to the study of the properties of numerical objects, something Marty would know if they took five minutes to look up what modern arithmetics actually is.

[@markallen8022]

Another great show.

[@bodricpriest8816]

Got to say, love the attempt Forrest makes to be the 'bad cop'.... so incredibly cute.

[@ekipogh]

My favorite tap-dancing show on the Internet!

[@coachfrankie1112]

Forest and Matt, I feel spoiled as hell. 4 hours still isn't long enough. Awesome callers too 👏👏👏

[@zr_3757]

"You aren't scared of the other hells in other religions" Huh... You're right... This hit a switch I think

[@formidablefaith569]

Burning Forever. Nothing. --------------- You will only burn with new skin, which is provided. ( ) - Have we ever seen Nothing do something? ------------------------ Immovable unchanged Scripture with a Warning before you were born, saying the same thing? Before you were all born. A Warning never heeded? -------- First Verse - In the Name of ALLAH-the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. Qur'an 1 : 1 First Verse ever revealed - Read, ˹O Prophet,˺ in the Name of your Lord Who created- Qur'an 96 : 1 (Following verses revealed at the same time.) - 2. created humans from a clinging clot. 3. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous, 4. Who taught by the pen- 5. taught humanity what they knew not. (Qur'an 96 : 2-5) - Now from Surah " Maryam "(AS) Yes the Name of Jesus's (AS) Mother. Surah 19 - Maryam - Then We will certainly begin by dragging out of every group the ones most defiant to the Most Compassionate. And We truly know best who is most deserving of burning in it. (Qur'an - Maryam 19 : 69-70) -------- Is there a description of the burning? Yes. -------- Surely those who reject Our signs, We will cast them into the Fire. Whenever their skin is burnt completely, We will replace it so they will ˹constantly˺ taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an 4 : 56) - Indeed, those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have fallen into disbelief. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Who has the power to prevent Allah if He chose to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, his mother, and everyone in the world all together?” To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. He creates whatever He wills. And Allah is Most Capable of everything. The Jews and the Christians each say, “We are the children of Allah and His most beloved!” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Why then does He punish you for your sins? No! You are only humans like others of His Own making. He forgives whoever He wills and punishes whoever He wills. To Allah ˹alone˺ belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in between. And to Him is the final return.” (Qur'an 5 : 17-18) - Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah ˹himself˺ said, “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah-my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers. Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment. (Qur'an 5 : 72-73) - We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. (Qur'an 5 : 48) - Indeed, those who abuse Our revelations are not hidden from Us. Who is better: the one who will be cast into the Fire or the one who will be secure on Judgement Day? Do whatever you want. He is certainly All-Seeing of what you do. Indeed, those who deny the Reminder after it has come to them ˹are doomed˺, for it is truly a mighty Book. It cannot be proven false from any angle. ˹It is˺ a revelation from the ˹One Who is˺ All-Wise, Praiseworthy. ˹O Prophet!˺ Nothing is said to you ˹by the deniers˺ except what was already said to the messengers before you. Surely your Lord is ˹the Lord˺ of forgiveness and painful punishment. (Qur'an 41 : 40-43) - He is Allah-there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him: Knower of the seen and unseen. He is the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. He is Allah-there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might, the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺! He is Allah: the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. He ˹alone˺ has the Most Beautiful Names. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth ˹constantly˺ glorifies Him. And He is the Almighty, All-Wise. Qur'an 59 : 22-24 -------- And this ˹Quran˺ is not the word of an outcast devil. (Qur'an 81 : 25) -------- Regret? Regretful ones? -------- There are several verses in the Qur'an that describe the regret and remorse of the people in Hellfire. These verses highlight how they will wish they had believed and obeyed the message of Allah. Here are some key verses: 1. Surah Al-Mulk (67:10-11) "And they will say, 'If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze.' And they will admit their sin, so [it is] alienation for the companions of the Blaze." This verse emphasizes that the people of Hellfire will regret not using their intellect and failing to listen to the truth in this life. 2. Surah As-Sajda (32:12) "If you could but see when the criminals are hanging their heads before their Lord, [saying], 'Our Lord, we have seen and heard, so return us [to the world]; we will work righteousness. Indeed, we are [now] certain.' " Here, the people of Hellfire beg to return to the world, promising to do righteous deeds after realizing their fate. 3. Surah Al-Furqan (25:27-29) "And the Day the wrongdoer will bite on his hands [in regret] he will say, 'Oh, I wish I had taken with the Messenger a way. Oh, woe to me! I wish I had not taken that one as a friend. He led me away from the remembrance after it had come to me. And ever is Satan, to man, a deserter.' " This passage describes how people will regret the bad choices they made in friendships and their failure to follow the Messenger's guidance. 4. Surah Al-A'raf (7:53) "Do they await except its result? The Day its result comes, those who had ignored it before will say, 'The messengers of our Lord had come with the truth, so are there [now] any intercessors to intercede for us or could we be sent back to do other than we used to do?' They will have lost themselves, and lost from them is what they used to invent." This verse speaks about how people will acknowledge the truth brought by the messengers but too late, as they will have lost their chance for repentance. 5. Surah Al-Zumar (39:56-58) "Lest a soul should say, 'Oh [how great is] my regret over what I neglected in regard to Allah and that I was among the mockers.' Or [lest] it say, 'If only Allah had guided me, I would have been among the righteous.' Or [lest] it say when it sees the punishment, 'If only I had another turn so I could be among the doers of good.' " These verses show how people will express deep regret for neglecting their duties toward Allah and mocking the truth in their worldly life. These verses capture the deep remorse that those in Hellfire will experience, lamenting their past actions and their missed opportunities to follow the right path.

[@johnd1047]

Good on you! Critical thinking is the way😎🙌

[@keeper9007]

This thought helped me so much the first time I heard it

[@chucksav4441]

Losing my faith was the scariest thing to come to terms. Like your inside a speeding car & suddenly discover their's no driver. But eventually the fear went away, realizing how sily that fear is, & realize I am the driver of that car & no one else.

[@formidablefaith569]

@@chucksav4441 Wishful thinking. So you created yourself? Every breath you take is counted. Numbered. You might claim to be the Driver. Yet you are sustained the whole time as the entire World and all of existence is too by God Almighty. So you can even choose a destination. Think. Answer. Speak. Allah SWT is The Creator. Judgement Day is inevitable.

[@BorisNoiseChannel]

I am subscribed to this channel, and have been for quite some time. Yet, when I happen to catch the live streaming of an episode, the chat section remains inaccessible to me, saying it's ''subscriber mode only''. Am I missing a step, or am I misunderstanding the concept? Thanks.

[@rhondah1587]

We invented language to describe things to each other and we invented math to describe quantities and measurements. Both of which must be taught and aren't intuitive without instruction.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

Math is the language of objective truth. Numbers are not subjective and can not lie.

[@rhondah1587]

@@Copperhead-EDC LOL That which simply describes what we perceive cannot be objective or claim truth. Numbers can be very subjective and can be used in a multiple of bases which changes the meaning of them depending on the choice of base used.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

@@rhondah1587 I'm afraid you are simply wrong. The base used to count numbers does not change meaning or mathematical answers. No worries. We're human, we make mistakes.

[@rhondah1587]

@@Copperhead-EDC Yes it does change. You can measure the length of a board and if you say it is 5, that doesn't give you a truth because you don't know if it's inches or centimeters or feet or yards or meters or even miles. The number 5 does not give you a truth, you need more.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

@@rhondah1587 Yes, you are correct. The number 5 by itself is not a truth statement, as it requires comparison. 2+3=5 however, is a factually objective truth statement.

[@mhavens8532]

Sounds like K is mid-deconstruction. I've been working through the soul too. It's one of the hardest things to give up. As someone in the live chat said, Christianity (and probably other religions) makes your "soul" your entire being. Not having one is like saying that person has no worth. It's a terrifying concept.

[@dwightfitch3120]

And, as others have said,why would the soul need you?

[@hdub8093]

Mr. Ryan and Marty sure are experts in word salad bullsh*t.. "mathematics prove god", PFFF!

[@IRGeamer]

Numbers and math are natural consequences of the laws of logic. "a" is "a" and "b" is "b" and if you have "one" of each, then you have two "items". It's not rocket surgery or magical divination.

[@gnosticacademy]

You said nothing.

[@dannyjfunez]

I think the problem people are having with the concept of math is that they are not realizing that its not universal in the sense that its a discovered object. Math only exists because we have enough awareness to think thoughts. Math is just a way humans have unintentionally synced their thoughts so that anyone can understand the thought of quantity. No matter the linguistic language, thinking about two objects is the same in every human mind. And so we named it, called it some arbitrary thing, and thats math. It didn’t come from someone entity, its just a function of thinking abstractly

[@quickforce255]

I could have sworn Jon was banned after calling in to about walking down a road and having bottle thrown at him while hearing a voice that said “snakes are the people you idiot”

[@ArKritz84]

​@@jonjacksongrieger255 I remember an X-files episode about something like that. 🤔

[@ArKritz84]

@@jonjacksongrieger255 snakes in people.

[@vincehawthorne3155]

Sad, considering he still lacks focus and coherency. Nothing new with Jon.

[@joemiller7082]

@@jonjacksongrieger255unless you can prove its true, it doesn’t mean anything.

[@johnnehrich9601]

After listening to him blabber on this time, I wish he HAD been banned. And I really REALLY wish he is from now on.

[@KristiTays]

Forrest is my favorite guest on this show thus far. 😊

[@KageJW]

This is why I say saying that there are good versions of Christianity is like saying there are good versions of slavery. The fundamentals of the religion are abusive. Trying to argue that there are less harmful forms of Christianity is like arguing that there are less harmful versions of slavery.

[@Anonymous_Skeptic1947]

It’s so frustrating when callers ask: “can I talk now?”

[@bodricpriest8816]

Dear Mr Ryan, can I get half a pound of truth on Rye please?

[@Copperhead-EDC]

Sure, I got you my bro. I'll grab my Grade 9 math textbook, and then slap some bread on it for ya.

[@redflag4781]

​@Copperhead-EDC That's not "truth" in the conceptual sense as used in the op.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

@@redflag4781 Sure it is. That's just proof the truth can be represented physically, as math equations on paper in a text book. Doesn't change the fact the truth exists metaphysically regardless of the physical medium, ie the math answers would still be correct and accurate regardless of whether or not the book existed. That's why we say mathematical truth is discovered, not invented. And no, regardless of what BS Forrest makes up, there is absolutely no debate regarding the issue, it's clear cut black and white. Forrest is clearly confused.

[@redflag4781]

@Copperhead-EDC Oh you're a presupp. Got it. That's the conversation over, yes? Since apparently I have no grounding for anything that I say & you "know" that I believe in God really & am just denying it...🤣 Bye Bye.

[@IRGeamer]

@@Copperhead-EDC "That's just proof the truth can be represented physically, as math equations on paper in a text book." “There is a cult of ignorance… and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Isaac Asimov

[@Robin3615]

K's hang up is they don't want to ever die. I was put under for a minor procedure and I experienced nothing. I would love to live forever but there is nothing to fear in nothing except missing out on seeing the future.

[@AmateurDIY4Dads]

Matt: @25:30: “We’re all familiar with what Hebrews 11 says about faith.” “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen…. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Matt @27:30 “at no point does science require faith.” Question: what does Matt believe regarding the beginning or creation of the universe? Can that explanation be fully supported using science and data alone. Does that explanation require any level of faith (conviction of the things not seen)? Has Matt personally seen all of this evidence for himself and personally collected the data which forms the basis for his understanding? If not, does his belief require faith in the authors of these studies or books from which his beliefs come? My understanding of the beginning of the universe is based on an explanation that I read in a book. I have faith in the explanation provided and more importantly in Who that book says created the universe. I at least admit it requires faith.

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

Faith. What you use when you have no good reason to believe...if you had a good reason you would give that instead

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

Thomas. You've got this!

[@jimiellis6060]

Thomas is now free, he can go raipin anna pillagin, like the rest of us lolol.

[@brucebaker810]

Wheeeeee! 😂

[@virtualpaladin3507]

Mr. Ryan doesn't know the difference between a concept and something that exists

[@catalhuyuk7]

@@virtualpaladin3507 What about a concept of a plan? Does that exist? JK

[@Copperhead-EDC]

Is there a difference between 'the truth' and something that exists?

[@virtualpaladin3507]

@@catalhuyuk7 😂😂😂

[@FirstALittleBackground]

SMH when Marty was like "can I speak now?" And then she was like "I heard a beep." She's so worried that her precious words would go unheard, and couldn't bear the thought of wasting one of them while on mute. Why can't these callers just *start talking*...if it turns out you were on mute or there was a problem, you'll get interrupted and the issue will be resolved then. If there's a hell and I'm in charge of it, some of my pettiest punishments will be for people who call into talk shows and start with "hi, can you hear me okay?"

[@jayhei869]

They actually said "I heard you say you put me on hold so I wasn't sure if I was still on hold." Still the point stands though

[@AmosRambles]

Marty doesn’t understand that there are multiple number systems exist - the number line he is talking about base 10 only

[@mhoppy6639]

Underrated comment. Counting in hexadecimal is not “natural” or “universal” as he puts it but only because it’s not the vernacular of the general population which makes it uncomfortable for everyday (non IT folks) to use. Marty has focused on the wrong universality as it were. Matt had it right. It’s bloody physics.

[@Cornu341]

​@@mhoppy6639 from a genetic perspective we still have the coding information for 6 digits per limb, but it is not read usually for some millions of years. So technically from the instruction manual we should default to hexadecimal systems 😂

[@mhoppy6639]

@@Cornu341 hey I never knew that! Amazing what you pick up here! 🙏 thanks

[@AMaverickBeingFrank]

Amos doesn't realise that Pure Mathematics is universal and provable.

[@AmosRambles]

@@AMaverickBeingFrank Amos has a mathematics degree so is well aware of the complexity of mathematics and what can be proven. Still doesn’t prove god.

[@TimelyAbyss]

I really don’t understand this fascination with math. Like it’s just counting! Then later we learned to count fancier. Someone please explain to me why people think math must be divine.

[@Apostate_Alexei]

Jon strikes me as the kind of guy who reeeeeally loves the sound of his own voice, and wants to show off his newly acquired $5 words (even though he repeatedly pronounced "corporeal" incorrectly)

[@Mmmmilo]

The fact that he says “like” 74 times a sentence betrays that he doesn’t actually grasp the subject matter.

[@BreakYourBubble]

Was looking for a comment like this, thought I wouldn't be the only one 👍

[@DrewpyPlats]

Thomas you sound like the sort of Catholic I was. Also side note look up fundie voice. They did that to me too. It takes work to undo. And even now relaxing enough to not do it is very difficult. You are not alone!

[@davidwatson8118]

Marty, I have 10 fingers.🙄 Numbers and maths, therefore god 😩🤣

[@johnd1047]

Fax n logik😎🙌😎🙌😎🙌😎🙌

[@presidentobummer447]

oh my gords, I think you just proved Demeter and Athena, maybe even Hera.

[@brucebaker810]

We have 10 digits. Universe runs on base 10. CoINciDeNcE?

[@brigidandair]

Marty's whole argument boils down to "Things make sense. So something must have made it make sense." As if we would have any way to be arguing this if nothing made sense. It's presuming a god already, because it's stating that only minds could create patterns, because minds can notice them. It's circular, and assuming that without minds, pure, nonsensical chaos is the only other alternative.

[@thyrbse]

But if the concept of a plan exists, does the plan also exist?

[@brucebaker810]

The concept doesn't exist. The plan possesses 2nd level non-existence.

[@LogicAndReason2025]

Even if we had HD video of Jeebus' magical mystery tour, the most likely explanation would be an ancient illusionist/ con-man. The entire absurd narrative is something you would expect from a Tobe Hooper movie, not a divine super-being.

[@shodan6401]

Rolfe (KY) - I have absolutely no words of encouragement for you. Seeing that you are in Kentucky, the heart of the bible belt, where there are billboards on every roadway, and people ask where you go to church upon meeting? That is my version of hell. So sorry...

[@ReiperX]

Poor Mr. Ryan can't have a conversation.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

That's not a conversation, that's abuse.

[@IRGeamer]

You spelled "refuses to even try to" wrong...

[@Copperhead-EDC]

@@IRGeamer Yeah because yelling at people and telling them to shut up is totally constructive conversation. Not.

[@danicoman961]

@@Copperhead-EDC That happens a lot, but Mr. Ryan absolutely deserved it. If you think he was gonna have a constructive conversation, you were not watching at all.

[@Copperhead-EDC]

@@danicoman961 No, you are wrong. Just another closed minded athiest full of hate, desperately wanting to have their worldview validated, regardless of whether or not it means trampling on another human with a different point of view. Very predictable.