Why Sonic Heroes DESERVES a Remaster - An In-Depth Review

[@bananaperson7372]

I didn't even realize how broken this game was as a child. This game was a huge part of my childhood

[@antiboi260]

Funny to believe 2 people did the level design for this game and then one of them gave up in the middle of doing designing the levels leaving one

[@reddemon6668]

He didn’t give up he got sick, poor guy didn’t have a choice. And they still managed to make a masterpiece.

[@mcnuggwtscreations]

@@reddemon6668 Sonic Heroes started the Dark Age, how does it make it a masterpiece?

[@mbdg6810]

@@mcnuggwtscreationsit didn’t start the dark age, it wasn’t atrocious.

[@FirstName_LqstName]

@mcnuggwtscreations this is the second time I've seen you regurgitate that line as a valid argument. You do recognise that statement was designed to trigger Sonic fans right ? It doesn't actually mean anything, it's not a valid source of criticism. Nobody who plays these games label them in "ages" because its incredibly subjective and doesn't actually do anything. Some people say SA2 started the dark ages because it's literally the darkest game in the franchise. Some people say Heroes because it's not SA3. Some people say Shadow the Hedgehog cause it's the one where its trying too hard to be edgy and dark. Taking that statement and trying to apply it on a literal sense to anything in these games makes no sense. The term "dark age" literally just refers to any largely negative period of time. I'd argue everything past Generations is in the "dark age" cause of games that are just not loved by literally anyone because they aren't fun or appealing. Sonic Boom, Sonic Forces, Sonic Lost World. Who liked these games ? Who doesn't consider these the literal lowest periods of the franchises history. You see how stupid calling something "The dark age" is ?

[@norekolivas]

it has some of my fav levels in the series

[@godhimself1128]

Every broken Sonic game deserves a remake

[@RivalChain]

So most games Dreamcast and onwards

[@EbubechukwuChukwuma-oy7cr]

I guess so

[@santinozampella]

Thank god we have p06 i love playing that fan game

[@gentlepeeps3351]

@@RivalChainheroes and adventure games mostly adventures games are pretty good just they are old now so could do with improvement heroes is genuinely broken

[@SuperNobody64]

Waste of resources. Some garbage needs to be thrown away for good

[@boogalloohuman9240]

If you let go off the stick while punching as knuckles or omega you will travel significantly less far while punching. I have no idea why the game doesn't teach you this mechanic since it's very handy to know.

[@aluzion2616]

Probable bcz it is not a mechanic that they made purposfully

[@reddemon6668]

@@aluzion2616 considering that knuckles combo animation is different than the repeated attacks done without moving, I’d say it was intended. If there’s one true criticism of this game is that there’s a lot of hidden stuff that doesn’t get explained. Thing like what each character power/ lvl ups do or what unique abilities are tied to each team blast, etc…

[@AccelerateHedge]

​@@aluzion2616 No no, it is, it's in SA2 as well.

[@owendinostudios1200]

it’s really funny how if i punch as Omega i go flying off the ledge, thanks for the tip!

[@AccelerateHedge]

@@owendinostudios1200 Except you won't doing this

[@budybas]

Little tip for the special stages I see everyone mess up. You don't need to spam press the B button to boost. Holding the button makes the boost way more useful and easier to control.

[@AccelerateHedge]

Wait, is THAT why people have trouble in those stages?

[@budybas]

@@AccelerateHedge I'm not sure if it's 100% the reason. The controls are still super slippery. I've found more success grabbing the emeralds early on with that method though. Made grabbing em for my 100% save a snap.

[@AccelerateHedge]

@@budybas hm

[@FirstName_LqstName]

I imagine playing with a controller (especially if you have large hands) and then having to mash furiously in order to catch up, thus shaking the controller would fuck with your accuracy. (Me. That was me.) I used to mash when i first got the game, and then i learned you can hold B instead and it just made focusing on steering them around the tube way easier. There's some people who played the game, didn't know, and then started feeling several varients of cramps and muscle pain in/around their thumb. If I could change one thing, it's the UI and tutorial level cause man they do not do a good job of teaching the player anything.

[@AccelerateHedge]

@@FirstName_LqstName I guarantee that well over 50% of the problems people have with this game are because the B/X Button prompt flickers.

[@ryleerushin3683]

I remember playing Heroes as a kid but then recently picked it up again after regetting a Gamecube and I couldn't stand it. I love the way it looks visually, it looks like a great fusion between the Genesis and Adventure games, the music is great too. I like the team switching in theory. Despite this, the game was too unpolished and the later levels weren't fun, which made replaying it 4 times didn't help. It's a shame too, this is the Sonic game I want to like the most, but I can't. If they did a modern day port with bug fixes and some added features, I'm kind of thinking similar to the Kingdom Hearts remasters, this could be one of the better 3D Sonic games. Great video as usual Rev, it was a fun watch!

[@IREV00]

Thank you, Rylee!

[@UNKNOWN_ERROR335]

I mean the Gamecube version is a lot better than the PS2 one. I sadly grew up with the PS2 one. :(

[@internetguy08]

To be fair to sonic team, they didn't actually remaster sonic colours ultimate, the reason shadow gens looks good is cuz they're the ones actually doing it, not some third party

[@christianboi7690]

I loved this game as a kid. It was so fun getting a hang of everything and figuring out all the mechanics and ways to progress through the levels. It so amazing going up the elevator in the power plant using the rings, skipping the whole thing. My only gripes as a kid were that in vs mode there were a lot of encounters that halted any leads and gave the straggler a chance to catch up or at least bypass an area since you already cleared it and I could never beat the darn lava section with team shadow. I can agree that there were weird options with the way switching worked and the way their moves interacted with the momentum, but the general speed and control I never really had much of an issue with. Part of the fun was the clunky speed seeing how well and fast you could navigate the awesome levels. Maybe a lot of that is just me though.

[@NotDynimiteDuck]

"grand metrwerpeles"

[@kareem990]

Those 18 second at the first of the video bringed back a lot of childhood trauma this game gave me But i still love it to this day

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

The game can be glitchy and slippery at times but it’s still a VERY good game and an overall great experience to play and have fun with it. This is a VERY good game with VASTLY more positives than any negatives that anyone says it has.

[@juschlora]

still, my favorite sonic game.

[@АльфредДрагунов-я7ю]

Heroes is my first 3d sonic game and to this day i love it immensely

[@TechnoSuperguy]

Heroes was my first Sonic game and I absolutely loved it. Maybe it's the nostalgia talking, but it's still my favorite Sonic game and one of my favorite games period. I never understood why it got so much hate. Until now. When you lay out all the issues like this, I totally get it. If today were my first time playing it, I'd probably ragequit halfway through Grand Metropolis.

[@Bafo117]

I love this game with passion, all of the flaws are true, but I just ignore them all, every playthrough is a blast to me, even the casino parts

[@ShinbrigTV]

Funny thing is; this was my first Sonic game (so major nostalgia bias) and I'm just hoping a remaster will fix all the problems.

[@jackburton3822]

yeah same here for me too

[@zjzr08]

I think Sonic Dream Team arguably made a potential future for a Sonic Heroes remake or gameplay sequel where you have big stages but certain characters will be the only ones with access to certain parts - I don't think people complained too much that you had to replay stages when doing mission from what I remembered

[@HeliosDrive]

8:53 Because all the other team stories feature events & plot details that build up to the final story. - Team Dark's story dissects the mystery behind Shadow's return and also explains how Metal Sonic attained the ability to wield Chaos Control by copying Shadow's data. - Team Rose's story explains how Metal Sonic attained the ability to shapeshift by copying Chaos' data through Froggy & Chocola. - Team Chaotix's story explains the mystery behind the Eggman decoys featured in the preceding stories by revealing their captive client to be none other than Eggman himself. What you're asking is basically the equivalent of "Why can't I just play Sonic's Story in SA1/the Hero Story in SA2 & skip straight to the Final Story?"

[@lacc3170]

That would be interesting...if it wasn't that between those parts of the lore I am doing the same clunky gameplay over and over again with no end except for the end goal.

[@lacc3170]

It's interesting that each team has his own story but they could at least made the levels less painful

[@HeliosDrive]

@lacc3170 I'd say it'd be a given that if the game were to get a proper remake, the gameplay would undoubtedly be smoothed over & fine-tuned, rendering such complaints a non-issue.

[@zjzr08]

​@lacc3170 Other than maybe the inconsistent pacing of Team chaotix missions I don't get complaints of repeating stages when Sonic levels are basically so fast to finish that replaying them shouldn't be too bothersome IMO - I usually like Team Rose for example as breather and could arguably the best to sprint through.

[@malik.a4125]

​@@zjzr08its not the fact that the levels are long, its the fact that i dont want to play the same damn game 4 times! And i especially wouldnt want to play easy mode after i played hard mode

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I just wished that it was available on modern consoles

[@marioandsonicanimations]

6:52 Lowkey felt that 💀

[@norekolivas]

Just completed this game yesterday after just playing it casually my entire life, this video is healing me.

[@samquik]

Agreed, I love Sonic Heroes because I grew up with it and I'm used to the quirks. But if I had just picked it up today, I wouldn't be able to see past the mess that it often is

[@chgjake2230]

Sonic heroes is my favorite sonic game, but I completely agree with almost everything in this video. There is so much I would change about the game if I could, but I also love the game so much, I’m willing to put up with these issues every time.

[@hugoflores1093]

I agree that the game needs a remake I tend to allign on Jeb's review, the game's broken but is a heck of a time Is up there with SA2 and 3&K as that game i can just start a new run aiming for the A Ranks/Emeralds and have a great time

[@ZackFireX]

DUDE you’re actually so cool for thinking each character should be mapped to a different face button. I’ve thought the same thing for years and but no game has ever tried it!!!

[@Zachx]

I love Heroes. I'll die on that hill. I played a couple levels again a few weeks ago, and I still feel this way. I agree it's not perfect, though.

[@keshang_laow8325]

The rail canyon is my favorite location in Sonic heros, and i never had the problem of falling off the rails before. Accidentally stepping off them i have done a few times

[@legoawcstopmotioner9435]

I know that the modder known as Beatz was working on a fan remake shortly before all the "leaked Heroes remaster" drama started. Not sure if he's still working on it or not. I hope it didn't get cancelled. I'd love to see this game get the P-06 treatment.

[@stolenearthtv]

I don't have too much to say as I've never played sonic heroes. Just wanted to say I support and love your growth REV!

[@IREV00]

@@stolenearthtv Thanks StolenEarth, it means a lot to always see you commenting.

[@ChaddyFantome]

You dont have to come to stop to switch, though. You can do it on the fly

[@HeliosDrive]

Aye, the only restrictions are that you are neither airborne nor performing certain attacks/techniques.

[@ChaddyFantome]

@Enderguy059 Yeah, just be grounded, and you're fine. The game even buffers your switch, so it happens instantly as soon as you are on the ground or what have you. If you could switch while flying, for example, the level design would be way too easy to break.

[@Azazel_Maximus]

I love this game so much, but the frickin glitch on mystic mansion where enemies don't spawn in the room where you had to use each position happened every time and was so annoying... it happened before I could even beat the team dark story in my current save file.

[@badmanpat9523]

This game deserves a remake but people hate on the original game way too much 😂, personally I reckon that’s what made it so fun and memorable. •it wasn’t purely linear as every sonic game is now so you have more character freedom and gameplay options. •you actually had to think about your movements in the game and couldn’t be reckless otherwise the game would punish you for it and that helps you stay engaged. •a new mechanic that went away from just screen-right gameplay or boring levels just to get to the good ones. Overall it’s a good game but like any has a number of flaws but a remastered version or even remake would make this a great game. Along with Shadow the hedgehog and Sonic 06, give these games a remaster or remake and you’re looking at masterpieces.

[@matthewbolitho-jones]

I like Sonic Heroes

[@progamer2009]

13:30 NGL, had watch that a second time to realize what happened and I gotta say; _That_ wasn't unfair, you just played yourself. And for context: Every Team blast has a secondary mechanic tied to its cooldown , Team Dark's is Chaos Control...which stops time. And since time is stoped, the frog can't see you, it can't move so it won't croak, it can't rain so the vine won't grow. -Apparently it doesn't have a hitbox before it grows, which wouldn't matter if it's not growing anyway- But you still jumped on it.

[@reddemon6668]

The only true criticism in that aspect of the game is that it doesn’t tell you that u can cancel out of chaos control. Other than that, ur absolutely right. Too many people rather complain about the game when really, it’s just that they suck at the game. They naturally try to protect their egos, and blame the game without realizing it was their fault to begin with.

[@zjzr08]

​@reddemon6668 Is it fair to say Heroes is just not intuitive enough and that the jank doesn't help it, despite IMO if you know all the mechanics, it actually flows well, if you mastered its game flow?

[@reddemon6668]

@@zjzr08 the Jank doesn’t help it but it doesn’t go completely against the overall flow either, ultimately the gameplay is solid and entertaining for the most part, and yes it’s for sure not intuitive enough, but if it was bad game it wouldn’t have sold so many copies. I think part of the fun, like most Sonic game, is mastering the mechanics, and of course, it will flow better at that point, but even before getting there, the game has moments that will automatically just flow, then moments where if u do things right the flow continues, and then moments that once u remastered the gameplay u can skip sections of the game or free fall successfully to a different section, and in those things there’s satisfaction as well. A game where the jank actually goes against the flow and gameplay of the game would be sonic 06. U fix and polish those issues with the game and the gameplay is actually really fun, otherwise with the jank it’s mediocre, even if u master the mechsnics

[@zjzr08]

@@reddemon6668 I guess so, I did like the switching of characters and I didn't it feel that they were too intrusive in Heroes. I will say the argument that many sales = good quality is something I cannot agree (see Switch Pokemon games), although I feel sales retention through months could be a sign of it.

[@reddemon6668]

@@zjzr08 well by copies sold, I meant the overall state of the game and its popularity. You have a large fan base that has supported it for years and even then the overall reviews for the game aren’t bad. Most of the complaints are from those that played the Sonic adventure series before this game. But if u go in with an open mind and just play it for what it is, without comparison, as a stand alone it’s a memorable piece. Not many other Sonic game has gotten as creative or colorful with the level design, or been able to smoothly implement the “team” gameplay so well.

[@lutherh6090]

Sonic Heroes is a decent game with fantastic music but is lacking polish. Needs a remaster that improves the collision and adjusts character speed.

[@DJSparkk-e5q]

I know this sounds like I’m nitpicking and your video was great. But to help with confusion. A remaster is a game that got touched up on graphics significantly but now fully made again from the ground up. A remake is when you get a game and completly remake it from the ground up. Sonic x shadow gens is an inhansed port because it is basically the same game again. But with slight changes. Sonic colors ultimate is a remaster due to it actually touching up on the graphics but not made from the ground up. crash bandicoot Nsane trilogy is a remake though, making the games again from scratch.

[@AliusIsDead]

I find the development of Sonic Heroes and the final state of the game to only be a miracle as the game was put together in under a year (I believe like 8-10 months). People getting overworked to the point of getting horribly ill but I can tell they were passionate about this title with how much effort was put into the presentation in such a short timeframe for game development. It's genuinely disgusting that Sega thought it was okay to pump out the next Sonic game like this and continue to mishandle the franchise with horrendous schedules/time crunches, and still having not learned their lesson when other studios have a hand in the franchise (Sonic Colors: Ultimate and Sonic Origins come to mind). I would absolutely love a remaster of Sonic Heroes, it's the Sonic game I grew up with, but the reason why it might not is that it was built on an engine now owned by EA (RenderWare), leaving it in this weird licensing limbo with the options being "Pay EA to be able to remaster and fix the game or remake Heroes from scratch and reusing the assets we have" Only other note is that I will say that Sonic Colors: Ultimate wasn't handled by Sonic Team and was given off to Blind Squirrel Games and Ridiculous Games with Sega just providing the code and assets to it (and knowing their track record with Sonic games, rushing the game out the door), but Sonic Team having no hand in development. The only remaster Sonic Team having developed being Sonic X Shadow. Still a great review of the game, and gives me a new perspective on the game. Keep up the great work, Rev.

[@Snackpigeon]

...grand what? im just kidding lol, really great video!

[@theminiyosshi2901]

5:21 Grand Metorpolis

[@kmrsmth4460]

Lmaoooo

[@j0hnc00]

If checkpoint stored your level ups/powercores that would be a big quality of life improvement

[@mechakirby9576]

i dont remember where ir read about this but basically sonic heroes was made in a enginge that not only is defunct but is in hands of EA, so if sega wants to remake heroes, a game that has a more mixed reception instead of more liked games by general public like colors and has to talk with EA, you know the devil in gaming industry, they would find it either too expensive or too time consuming. true there is the option of making a remake with another engine, like sonic colors ultimate and i dout people have hopes in sega making a remake of good quality with a game so infamous from been buggy and unpolish.

[@IREV00]

I remember reading something similar like... five months ago when this was in the news (aren't I so topical?). I definitely feel like Sega could get around this, especially now they have all that movie money to sling around. But yeah, you're right, they probably won't. I really do hate that we're in the era of only well-liked games even getting a chance of a remaster. It sort of makes sense financially, but man is it tired at this point. Sonic Heroes has the potential of being turned into a truly excellent game... but will it even be given that chance? Probably not any time soon...

[@harenzaren]

Yeah, the engine was called RenderWare and it was used by tons of games, most famously GTA III, VC, and SA, and relatively recently Rockstar also had to take the approach of putting those game in an entirely different framework for their own remasters (barring the fact that they were originally based on shoddy mobile ports).

[@NinjaMario02]

​@IREV00 Keep in mind Sonic Heroes did see a re-release on the PS3 in early 2012, which was long after EA acquired Renderware, so there might still be some hope for a re-release, if not, use a different engine to improve the gameplay

[@RedditorGogeta]

I'm honestly in the same boat as you, I can't recommend Heroes to anyone despite it being my favorite game of all time, but if this game was to be remade then I'd like it to add a new mode called "Casual Mode" with QOL updates and changes, and leave the base game with the new updated graphics and call it "Veteran Mode" or something like that and "Custom mode" where you can turn on the changes that you like, as for the changes that I would add: 1-Better controls, Speed being less slippery and less responsive to the inputs (think of Frontiers Sonic), Power characters not going all over the place when attacking (or at least to lesser degree), Flying characters walking normally and only going into the totem position one actually flying (kinda like Sonic World), and add a homing reticle to the Homing Attacks and Thunder Shoots and if you want to change targets you can flick the right stick to the target that you want to attack, the rail changing mechanic should be like the modern games 2-The teams go through the levels in different order (for example have Team Sonic start at Seaside Hill while Team Dark starts at Rail Canyon,Team Rose starts at Frog Forest and the Chaotix start at Casino Park) with new or modified level design for each team so it would fell less repetitive 3-When dying, instead of restarting at level 0, you would only lose 1 level for the lead character, in this way it would still punish the player for losing and it won't be as frustrating if it happened in the later parts of a level 4-The Final Story being unlocked after beating one of the stories and getting the Chaos Emeralds

[@AccelerateHedge]

Power characters do not "go all over the place" when attacking.

[@CosmjcBurrito]

Metorpolis

[@Hurtle885hu8bu]

“Sonic Heroes is the black sheep of 3D Sonic” Along with Shadow The Hedgehog, Lost World, Rise of Lyric, Secret Rings, oh and can’t forget 3D Blast. And yeah, being able to switch characters In midair would do a lot for this game. The controls are really simple, the levels are gorgeous and feel very alive, and even the harder levels feel in line with the punishing classic Sonic design. Except Casino Park, with the pinball tables, that’s actually ridiculous.

[@Tailsdude22]

I do have to point out if anyone else hasn't... this game also has the hieght mechanic with the homing attack so... ofc it's not going to work if you don't give it a second after jumping. That aside... good stuff and quite understandable.

[@costby1105]

Part of the reason why Sonic Heroes hasn't gotten a rerelease or remaster is that the game's engine is no longer being updated and the developer of said engine is also owned by EA. That is the same reason why GTA definitive trilogy was ported over to Unreal Engine 4. Sonic Generations ran on Sega's own Hedgehog Engine while Shadow x Sonic Generation is likely running on the Hedgehog Engine 2 a meaning a much less intesive porting/remastering process overall.

[@owendinostudios1200]

i swear if this game gets a remaster for the year of Chaotix and Knuckles Chaotix doesn’t get released with it i’m gonna flip my shit

[@ScalyRaptor1944]

5:39 ... i like rail canyon and bullet station

[@DinoDonnieV]

So do i

[@zjzr08]

I will say I insist on making sure the 3 characters line up in the rails and I find it hard to do it and risk falling down...I wonder if few would complain to have them automated to lineup at the least when you enter rails.

[@phantom-X2086]

@@zjzr08 I often see so many complaints about rail grinding and switching. People say a game's rail grinding is too inconsistent and buggy and some will say another game's rail grinding is too automated. It's confusing to me lmao.

[@bananaperson7372]

Hot take but the casino level rules too

[@ScalyRaptor1944]

@@bananaperson7372 they are cool but not fun for A ranking

[@lpslethalrose]

Krill issue 🦐🦐🦐

[@edwardbo4666]

10:01 odd. I remember being able to switch on the fly so long as your on the ground. Perhaps, your just bad.

[@Basement_Ckickn]

Just like everyone else in this comments section , heroes WAS my childhood. The first video game I ever played on my dad’s old Xbox on a cathode-ray tube TV, and even I could tell there was a lot of jank that frustrated me. But I still hold it in my heart, even though said Xbox is fried and im not going to eBay to buy a $2000 relic.

[@derekr3895]

This game needs an entire redo. This was the moment that 3D sonic started going down hill and it has never recovered.

[@nevanski]

what if i were to tell you... its already being worked on. its coming next fall (delays possible ofc)

[@mysticduel]

There's a rumor that Sonic Heroes is getting Remake and coming out in 2025

[@kymerahYT]

No wonder I just played team Rose growing up

[@christopherc7075]

Are there any mods that fix some of the issues you mentioned? Like a "give level up" cheat or mod?

[@Penncentral-vr6mg]

My first sonic Honestly love final fortress It’s just the music and atmosphere I guess

[@SonicFreeze]

This is my favorite game!

[@toongrowner1]

youre certainly not alone. Maybe its me being somewhat biased since this was my first "modern" sonic game, but it is a game I enjoy despite its flaws (and boy are these huge ones).... where I have to disagree with you is the mansion level, or in general the spooky castle level. Are actual my two of my favourite levels in the franchise, from the music alone.

[@frickerrific2813]

Shadow the Hedgehog is a good game.

[@kaji4772]

Had to be said. Thank you

[@gabrielcarvalhoseixas3112]

1:08 Sonic Labyrinth 0,25 Speed

[@jacobramirez8753]

The only and game I played but I loved it as a kid. I rebought a GameCube and this game to replay it

[@Finalflash50]

this game isnt weird man. i dont know what gave you and so many others the impression that one good game means there has to be an ever continuing series of the same kind of game, SA1 and SA2 were fine, not to be burned out or over-repeated. sonic heroes was a completely natural, fairly well made 3d adaptation to what the classic games were, an excellent direction to move in for a release across all platforms, and it has a nicely implemented gimmick of sonic working with his friends. this game kind of exposed a lack of judgement in the sonic fanbase to be honest....

[@AKUNJIG]

Reaction Time was key in this Game. Now I remember why I never finished it.

[@reddemon6668]

This seems like too much criticism. Knuckles can’t climb because in the 3D plane it has the potential to skip entire levels, puzzles, and fights. Notice how knuckles climbs in other games, he’s either placed in a small area where the focus is entirely in his gameplay, or a small section of the game is given to him to use his abilities. As for Tails or other fly types flying, that’s also a ridiculous criticism. Obviously he can’t fly forever, what exactly did u hope for? A longer flying stamina? The level upgrades gives flying types just that, although not by too much, and even then this ability still saves u from sudden death on multiple occasions. On rails it’s a god send for many. Sonic is fast, yep, exactly as he should be, not sure what the issue here is, he’s not as bad as controlling as u make it seem. Going to fast? Jump decreases momentum a bit or switch characters. Sonic isn’t meant to do most of the platforming either way, tails is the go to for these things on most occasions, then knuckles. Choosing the best character for the right place is what the game is about. U can play as any type, but when ur fresh new to the game at that point ur working against the flow of the game itself, and it will punish u for it. Not cuz the game is bad but just cuz ur gameplay skills suck. This game isn’t just about sonic, it’s about the thee characters and when to use them. All 3 of them are like 1 character, u have to switch them out on the fly while trying not to stop or fall to the ground. Getting as much air time and speed or chaining attacks together. That’s where the game shines, but Sonic Adventure fans who are hell bent on that game’s formula will never see this because they’re still stuck wanting this game to be something that it’s not. It’s not a Sonic adventure game, it’s not just a “I want to play as just Sonic” game. Let’s not act like Sonic adventures 1 or 2 didn’t have their own form of jank either, cuz it did. And the speed that Sonic goes at is equal to an athletic runner, which isn’t that fast for a game character touted as “the fastest thing alive” That’s not to say the game doesn’t have its jank, and kuckles and omega have their issue with their combos sending them sliding all over the place, knuckles actually has an ability that doesn’t require him to use the combo, and both characters can use their mid range air, fire ball attacks for more precision when eliminating enemies.

[@lacc3170]

There's no need to be that defensive against Sonic adventure. And besides, as someone who 100% it a few months ago, I totally agree in mostvparts of what he said. I really dislike that u play as the game intended and still get punished by something out of ur control (Omega combos) that's coming from someone that doesn't see what makes Adventure 1,2 so great. But I can understand what makes them good, Sonic Heroes took me like 2 weeks after 100% to finally understand what made it good to sum people. But I still won't play it for the sake of pleasure, only if I get asked.

[@reddemon6668]

@@lacc3170 im not being defensive, I stated that I agree that omega sliding allover the place was an issue with the game, as there are many others. That’s not the issue, u can argue that Sonic adventure 1 and 2 were the best Sonic games ever made and that’s not true. Although the story was great beyond comparison, the gameplay did not age well. It’s clunkier, slower, and worse overall than heroes. And what makes it worse is having a bias, after having played those games, and then blaming heroes cuz it’s not those games. When he compared Sonic adventure to this game, I can already tell there’s bias going on, because what usually follows afterwards are illogical arguments like “Sonic/ speed formations are too fast”. Like yeah, that’s the point, for them to be fast, tails and knuckles are slower and more efficient at platforming. The game gives u different areas where u have to decide who to use for the most efficient way to get through each of those areas. It shouldn’t take one 3 or 4 runs to see what makes heroes good, it’s simple, use momentum to chain jumps and cut sections of the game, or chain attacks in a combo to get rid of a bunch of enemies quickly to progress. The game does these 3 things efficiently considering u have speed type for momentum and jump, fly types to chain weaker enemies and for slower falling, and power type for mid range aoe damage and to tsk e down heavy armored enemies Or blaming the game for what is obviously a skill issue. Take for example the moment in the video he falls off for trying to swing on the vine, he had just finished using chaos control team attack, which freezes time, meaning that the frog did not detect the player, so it did not activate the rain which would have allowed the vine to grow. He didn’t fall to his death because game glitched or some game jank. He fell to his death cuz he made the wrong choice and forgot that he had just recently frozen time.

[@zjzr08]

​@@reddemon6668I do think that maybe the Speed characters have too fast of a base speed but maybe they could've made a better difficutly curve as the opening level already have momentum stoppers like water gaps...maybe they could make it so earlier stages have each role be one long obstacle then you change up roles more frequently in later stages

[@SuperLooper01]

The fact that I agree with everything you said is wild.

[@reddemon6668]

@@zjzr08 no I don’t think speed characters are an issue, there are obvious sections made with the speed of those characters in mind. You’re not meant to platform with speeds characters. More refined movements are made power and fly, with fly formations usually being the go to for platforming. I cant stand the slow speeds from sonic adventure or sonic 06 games. They’re so slow, A regular human running could probably be faster.

[@chatsunami]

I'm really surprised that it hasn't been ported to a next gen console yet. I have the PC disk version but since newer PCs don't have disk drives then I can't play it. But I'm 100% with you on all the issues you outlined. The special stages are the worst since if you so much as get hit once with the key to access them during the levels then you lose it entirely. I think it has a lot of potential for a remaster but they do need to polish a lot of the mechanics before they do since come on its been 21 years since it dropped🥲

[@gregoryrodriguez5621]

External CD drives exist

[@djuv4375]

Prem gonna seeth if he sees this

[@BaconNuke]

Imagine whole like.. sequel that gives characters bit more of their own.. character.. like sure Sonic and Shadow are still the fast bois but imagine Shadow has something *different* like a energy spear or blast or have Knuckles and Rouge be counterparts again... I know there would be issues with Omega but.. that could be a draw, each team has someone that is still thematic but they aren't all the exact same "type trio" like just thinking of Team Sonic and Team Dark.. if Knuckles and Rouge are counterparts again (and maybe regain the climbing) then Tails could be wholly unique with flight and Omega suddenly has a niche as the bruiser of their group instead of Knuckles gaining a counterpart that wasn't there before that isn't brought up again.. The complaint about how some levels are open and others aren't.. that is how I noticed other Sonic games go too, like playing Mania for example.. Green Hill has a lot of various paths but then like Titanic Monarch Zone is lot more linear.. it's because they are ramping up the challenge and taking all the safety nets away (ie Green Hill you rarely have a bunch of pits because the higher paths just fall to a lower one.. but later stages the pits are there because that is either the only path or the lowest path and they have to take the training wheels off) Oh wait nvm some of those gimmick-y levels *do* suck lol I disagree on deincentivizing the other teams "if you're good enough" because the whole game is meant to have all the teams going through the stages.. it's like if in Adventure 1 you could get everything as Sonic and just never play as Tails or Gamma or whoever (I know some would be fine not playing as Big or Amy but I digress) but maybe if the teams *actually* felt different to play it would be better to have to go through each "campaign" or.. maybe have it be that.. each team is limited to the emeralds they can collect so you can't just get them all as Sonic and then have no reason to do special stages as anyone else One gripe I have is.. they made Team Rose the easiest team yet.. third in the list.. like I am kinda fine with having Sonic as top bill but... Rose has shortest levels and a tutorial.. when many players would have possibly done Sonic *and* Dark.. we didn't need a tutorial 3/4 of the way into the game... like *Forces* didn't shove a tutorial on the basics randomly in but Heroes did? The level ups... I forgot they actually mattered... and I remember why I never realized they were such an issue.. I mainly had played as Rose since kid me actually did listen to who Easy, Medium, Hard, and Expert kinda difficulty... and since Rose's Team Attack gives everyone a level up.. I rarely was actually low.. and also the easier pace of the stages meant that I also didn't have the issue of dying setting me back that much... I know I did play as the other teams but I also just assumed I was bad and that's why died so much lol.. and since died so much I doubt I made it far as the other teams so I was always playing the easier sections which are balanced for level 0 lol Dumbest thing about level ups I read after looking up what they actually did... for flight characters they extend the flight gauge.. which means if you die at a section that is late in a level and needs flight.. you possibly are having to be better at the game to pass with a level 0 gauge.. which is obviously possible or there'd be a legit criticism for it

[@L-Taz]

so many sonic games need to be remastered

[@Mohammed1000real]

The rumors of Sonic Team remaking this game is still going.

[@jbru9576]

Sonic Heroes is weird for me. I really just dont enjoy it. It controls so poorly. The music is great tho

[@MysticClaws100]

Sorry but I completely disagree with the idea that you should be able to switch in the air or mid-attack. I don't want the character change button to perform the character move. Sorry but Forces tag team stages do not work better than Sonic Heroes. The only reason that even functions in Forces is because they have to make both characters extremely simple. Boost is Sonic, Wisps is Avatar and then there's nothing else to the team mechanic in that game. Heroes has 3 different characters who have much more depth to them. They have different areal attacks/moves, different ground moves, different control, different speeds and hitboxes. Each character has a different animation or ability when you enter a rocket. There are plenty of sections that you can do with the unintended character. Switching in air would completely break the level design. You also don't need to stop moving to switch characters. Sonic controls way worse in this game than in the Adventure games. But I feel like that's not really a problem with how the team mechanics function or with how the levels are designed. Most speed sections where you're just running are wide enough that you won't be bouncing into walls or falling to your death. Really there are just certain homing attack sections and light dash sections that are inconsistent. But the game expects you to use Tails to slow down. Knuckles/Omega's combat is very slippery which is why you shouldn't use their ground attacks unless in a safe area. It's always much better to use the power or flight character's areal attacks if you feel like you're in a place with a lot of pits you could fall into (Or speed character if they're at level 3). Additional, Knuckles ground combo is much safer if you mash the action button to just do many short jabs I have a lot of issues with Heroes. I still think it's an enjoyable game and I think a lot of the solutions that people tend to come up with to the games problems don't actually improve it. Tbh I really do think when it comes to older games, especially SA2 and Heroes, skill issue is a very reasonable counter to people's issues, especially when it comes to SA2, cus Heroes is a pretty damn glitchy and technical game. People really just don't want to try to figure out the game mechanics of these games, and much rather just say "It's aged badly, it's broken, it's outdated, it's janky" when they just want it to be a lot more automatic like the boost games tend to be.

[@lacc3170]

I agreed...until that last part about boost. And no, I given this game fair chances and 100% it and it was the most miserable time of my life (after 06). Imagine having ground attacks and not using it cuz it's not safe, what they bothered to give theses attacks then. While it's true that some people don't wanna learn the intricacies of Heroes, but I feel it's also cuz the "depth" u talk about it's mostly ruined by glitches and clunky controls. Like saying that Sonic 06 has a depth that no one likes it, well depth in a videogame is important as long as it's not to compensate for a problem in the product. It should be used to increase the skill of the player. I only been able to finish thar game by compensating of the frustrating controls. I don't feel any better at the game.

[@lacc3170]

And it is janky, not 06 level, but still Janky, u have to admit it.

[@lacc3170]

It's not cuz they all want to be automated, that's a bold claim to make. I play Sonic Unleashed but cuz of the Night sections, not necessarily for the Day sections, although I love them too. When playing the adventure games I only had a grudge over the fact It's not as great as people make it out to be

[@MysticClaws100]

@@lacc3170 I’m not saying boost games are “automatic”. I’m not even criticising them. I’m just saying that they automate a lot of things that previous games didn’t. Like rail grinding. When you get to Forces, they end up automating almost everything, like turning, drifting, speed boosters. Adventure games eras have automation too but what it does differently is still gives you some control. You can jump out of scripted loops, spin dash through chase sections like the Orca in Emerald Coast or GUN truck in City Escape to do these sections faster Heroes is definitely a janky game, tbh glitchy is even an accurate descriptor. But I don’t agree with the assessment that Sonic games from this era are inherently glitchy. SA1 wasn’t that glitchy originally on the Dreamcast, it was the DX port that introduced most of the common bugs. SA2 isn’t that glitchy at all. It’s only after that that you start to see a lot more bugs & glitches.

[@phantom-X2086]

I agree. My only issues with Sonic Heroes (I played it for the first time like about 2 months ago) was how slippery the speed and power characters were, the Casino based stages, the special stages, and the mystic mansion based stages. A lot of it probably has to do with technical issues and glitches of the game, but it is an overall enjoyable experience. I also don't believe that the early 3d Sonic games (Adventure 1, 2 and Heroes) are as glitchy or poorly made as a lot of people say they are. I've played the treasure hunt stages a lot recently to learn the level design and it's pretty fun to do.

[@Abandoned2377]

Team blast glitch makes the game more tolerable

[@Dalvory]

All these flaws you described are exactly why I DON'T want it to get a remaster or a remake.

[@milesfernando]

1:40 I think this is just a skill issue, you get SO many rings in Classic Sonic that it's like impossible to get game overs.

[@donniewills9030]

I don't know if it's just me but I feel like the GameCube version plays way worse. I had the Xbox version growing up and hardly had any issues with gameplay. I've played the PlayStation version before as well but not as much since it wasn't mine. However i remember feeling the same. Later as an adult my friend got it for his old GC and when i tried it out it was by far the worst time I had playing it. I agree with this video if it's the GC version but not anything else.

[@RockinSockems]

Solid video. If this game had a remaster, the main thing would be to port over adventure controls. That's what they wanted to do before the engine fucked it up so yeah. I think the leveling system could take cues from the elemental shields; You can carry them between acts but not zones. You can also make the player lose 1 level for each team upon death. That seems fair. Of course fix the special stages. I never had a problem with the "pace breaker" stuff, they're usually short, but I suppose you can put in hidden things to skip them if you're good enough. As far as polish, the main problems I have are pinball, rail switching, and general controls. I swear rail switching is the same as SA2, it's only safe to rail switch when you're NOT holding the b button. I tend to have a higher success rate doing that. Also I'm not a fan of having to manually land on a rail after certain things like a rainbow ring. You could probably put in some programming trickery so that knuckles never slides off of platforms when doing his attacks. As for team switching, you can switch on the fly on the ground, but not in mid air, and I think the latter's a problem. You literally wouldn't lose anything by having us switch in mid air, especially if designed correctly.

[@FirstName_LqstName]

@RockinSockems The engine didn't fuck up the controls. Play the game. All the jank in SA2 is in Heroes. They made the player controller as faithfully as possible. They intentionally raised the speed cap and acceleration. (Some people say they flat doubled it. Some don't. It's hard to measure that kind of stuff) The only thing they forgot to add was how in SA1 Sonic would half his turning radius once he's close to top speed. But im not even sure if that was in SA2 because you never go that fast without being automated. You can literally super bounce in this game similar to how you could in SA2. The jank comes from the fact they rushed the hell out of this game. The reason they bumped up the speed was... Pretty simple. These are extremely long levels compared to SA2. The longest levels in the game in a first play through take like 9 - 10 minutes if you don't die. I can barely cut them to 6 minutes. If they kept the original speed, it'd feel like you move way too slow.

[@windowsjordanchanell6478]

I've heard that sonic heroes may get a remake in 2025 i wish that right because i really like this game

[@Kurayamiblack]

That first clip says it all 😂

[@sonicnerd21]

Better controls, and less lengthy levels...then you got yourself a good game (Also change the Chaotix Levels)

[@jaygo6390]

Sonic Team never done the recent remasters Sonic Colours Ultimate and Sonic Origins. They are however doing Sonic X Shadow Generations and it’s clearly a much bigger deal than the previous remasters. It will be great 👍🏿

[@rfh9560]

The level up system never bothered me, and I got all A ranks on the PS2 which is the worst version, back when I was 13 or so. If you’re going for the A ranks, once you die, you gotta restart anyway. And if you don’t care about ranks, you won’t cara about taking a bit longer to kill enemies

[@JasaiGibbs]

I can’t lie the flight formation is rubbidh

[@popjumpy]

Im pretty sure Heroes is the only home console Sonic game Cream and Team Chaotix are playable in

[@kupaxykalee4454]

This is my favorite sonic game and i pretty much have no issues with it other than there’s no sequel. it was the first game i ever played in kindergarten and i played it a lot growing up cause it was one of the only games i had for a while. everything is second nature and just works for me. watching people struggle with this game is just amusing

[@EJElijah]

Why anytime someone says sonic heros is their favorite game they say it was because it was their first childhood game? Why can’t it never be that you just like the game?

[@kupaxykalee4454]

@EJElijah I had many sonic games around then and played all of them thoroughly and stopped after playing Sonic and the Secret Rings. I still think it offers so much that appeals to me. It is the only sonic game of its kind and it deserves a sequel.

[@EJElijah]

@@kupaxykalee4454 yeah I get it. I shouldn’t even be talking since sonic generations was my 2nd sonic game and it’s still my favorite game lol sorry if I was a bit rude.

[@kupaxykalee4454]

@@EJElijah I hear some of the newer ones are good tho. I probably would prefer the newer ones if I was born later. I’m glad that I got to experience an era of gaming that didn’t hold your hand as much cause now I get to enjoy being sweaty.

[@Nickika]

I actually like Sonic heroes, but to be able to enjoy it, you need bullshit tolerance 100% Once you get how the game's bullshit works, it gets to be pretty fun. The team combat is really good, and the level design is also very fun. And if you don't like this game, I totally get it. This game is fucking trash, but the good parts are good enough that I can have fun. Also, one of my favorite games of all time is Sonic Generations, because Sonic Generations has none of these problems, is probably the most polished Sonic game to ever exist, the level design is amazing, almost genius, Sonic Controls not the greates at the biggining, but as you start to get better he feels just right, there is no filler, the missions are fun, the bosses are good(exept for the last one, at least it goes by pretty quick), the references are done pretty well because they take stuff from the past and makes it 10 times better, it play with your expectation with the stuff you are familiar with, and it surprises you with something even better. Classic Sonic is really fun too, almost as good as Modern Sonic, I like the way that the level wraps around itself even though you are on a 2D plane, the spindash makes it even more fun because that shit is overpowered, but it takes time and skill to master which I like. The level design became more open, even though those open moments can be short, it adds to the flow of the level design in a great way. Overall Sonic Generations is perfection, yet I wished people could praise it more, and for some reason I see SA2 on most pople's S tiers just because of the story, cause the gameplay is not the greatest. Also I think that the classic games (exept for Sonic 1) are very fair, a thing about Classic Sonic's level design is something most people call passivity traps, where if you just keep holding right with no thought then the game will punish you, this applies perfectly for Sonic 2, 3&k, Mania, and Superstars. Pay attention to the level design, another thing is Classic levels have this thing where the harder paths is the fastest, and the easiest path is the slowest, but normally the higher paths are the fastest, and when you fall down to the level below then that is your punishment for sucking at the game, is kind of the way of the game saying "get gud" Although there are a few levels where that is not true, and you have to pay attention, because sometimes bottom paths are the fastest. And I know all of this stuff is true because I've played these games so fucking much that these types of things don't fly over my head. That's kind of a problem with Sonic where this type of stuff flies over most people's heads, Sonic games are not are not really meant for general audiences, it is far to complex for a casual player, and it's sad to see. I once saw a news article saying "if you make a game for the winners, you'll fail, but if you make it for the losers you'll succeed" Is the reasons why most games baby you trough everything and really hate that. Well, thank you for hearing my TED talk, what was I talking about again, oh yeah forgot we were talking about Sonic Heroes. Please help me I'm stuck in the Sonic loop and I can't get out!

[@EFSANEX]

I want my omega in sonic games

[@Super70000]

sonic heroes is the second most unpolished sonic game after sonic 06 ofc and it really needs a remaster from sonic team or a fan mods like sa1 and sa2 fixing mods or one big mod that fixes the whole thing like legacy of solaris or project re-rainbow i think if this game got fixed i might actually like it a lot

[@Jeff-te2cc]

What happened to those leaks about Sonic Heroes getting remade?

[@shootingquasardragon7971]

I Had More Glitch Deads En Sonic Heroes Than In 06. In Fact On My First Playthrough Of 06, I Only Found 1 Glitch

[@FirstName_LqstName]

Hi. Genuine question. Realistically. What would letting you keep all your levels after death achieve ?

[@HeliosDrive]

I assume retaining the high tempo/flow of the stage progression? Personally, I feel it's a bandaid fix that wouldn't be necessary if the game's major glitches & general jank were addressed first.

[@clean-6291]

It would achieve a less punishing difficulty. It would also be less frustrating when you die because of the game's flaws.

[@HeliosDrive]

@@clean-6291 But would it not be somewhat redundant if those flaws were addressed?

[@clean-6291]

@@HeliosDrive Honestly, yes it would be a bit redundant, so the system would need to be altered to compensate. It would most likely need to be far more incremental. Or maybe less punishing. Losing one level on death instead of all, or the levels could be based on total ring count. Interesting design space to explore regardless. But I do see your point.

[@crossdaboss8914]

If I remember right the game had massive development issues many of the stages was made under crunch with 2 devs making the stages during the late stages the other dev got sick and couldn't work explain soo much if why the level design was a mess it was 1 overworked mad man Also, the entire dev team was 19 people, which seems tiny even for that era

[@silveredfred]

You know even before maxing SA2B, I 100% completed Sonic Heroes, and may I say, I legit felt ALL.OF.THOSE.BS.DEATHS 🤣 seriously the amount of times I was terrified at just grinding stages in general out of fear of flying off is too many to count, and don’t even get me started on homing attacks that decided to not work cuz yes 😅

[@Kidkinsey]

Remaster it and make the multiplayer online. It has 4 teams and alot of game modes it’ll be really fun

[@astrologywithwidward315]

The crux of this video is about how you WANT sonic heroes to get the proper polish it deserves, and sonic fans still find a way get hyper defensive and pissy about it in the comments

[@IREV00]

The way she goes.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Is the hyper defensiveness and pissyiness are in the room with us right now?

[@clean-6291]

​@@IkeOkerekeNews Yes. Read the comment section.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

@@clean-6291 I've read it. Outside of a few direct attacks, the vast majority are either in agreement with the video or have some constructive criticisms/commentary about it and the game.

[@clean-6291]

@@IkeOkerekeNews As you mentioned, there are multiple people directly attacking the creator in a completely irrational and unfair fashion. I've seen multiple commenters attacking this creator's skill specifically, despite him being skilled enough to A-Rank every stage. Yes, some of the comments are constructive, but I thought it was obvious they're not who the original comment was referring to. Just trying to answer your initial question since you seemed confused. Hope this clears things up.

[@mahakimukano4536]

From what I'm seeing you are not playing the ps2 version. Lemme just say, when in the 5 first seconds of the first stage the characters can't follow a straight line during the scripted forced movement before they let you play says a lot about how much fun you're gonna have trying to navigate. Also happens during stage 2 act 1, which means you miss half of the rings. I watched my friend play it on the gamecube and so much is different. I managed to miss rings on loops I had no control on where on gamecube it wasn't a problem. Ps2 is locked at 30 fps, special stages are hell when you realize you gotta fight against the controls while having to react within a quarter of a second. I repeat, the ps2 version's 2 first act 1 INTRO parts can't keep a straight line until it lets you move.

[@FirstName_LqstName]

Oh boy. I can't wait till he brings up sliding off the stage and ignores the fact you can neutral stick to stay still or just jump and hit B.

[@clean-6291]

Being able to navigate the game's flaws does not remove them. Nor does it invalidate legitimate criticism. This guy A ranked the entire game because he loves it, and you're still defensive.

[@FirstName_LqstName]

@clean-6291 I also A ranked the entire game. I also love Sonic Heroes. I like playing it more than SA2. _tho depending on the day i flip between liking Heroes more or SA1 more_ I say it cause he blatantly shows us he can see the edge of the platform in a platformer. Knows that his punch sends him a good distance. Also knows 3 different ways to approach said enemy safely, and than says the games bad when he doesn't approach them safely. Why didn't he talk about the Pinball stages ? The first Pinball stage is literally the worst stage in the entire game and maybe even the worst thing in the game. At least in the special stages it's pretty easy once you learn to cheese it but the pinball physics on those tables are actually buggy as hell. They're terribly unresponsive, eat your inputs, the other characters die randomly on them. Nope. None of that. "I knew i would die if i fall off so im going to use the move that sends me long distances. BOOO THE GAME KILLED ME" The game gives you problems, and he picked wrong. But blamed the game.

[@clean-6291]

@@FirstName_LqstName What? He does talk about the pinball stages: 6:04 And the fact that the game was designed in a way where the player can receive the harshest punishment (dying) by using a GROUNDED attack on the GROUND to kill a GROUNDED enemy is objectively flawed in the first place. Are you seriously going to pretend that's good design? It's completely fair to criticize that design choice, even if the game has multiple ways to avoid it.

[@FirstName_LqstName]

@clean-6291 If you can see the GROUND ends right next to the enemy. Notice how the enemy won't move from that position. And know you shouldn't die. Then yes ? If every single game didn't punish you for not thinking twice, then the player would never think _twice_ ?

[@AntonioCruz-ex3qt]

I feel you man sonic heroes underrated

[@At_024]

For starters which did you play on? PS2 and X Box are the worst versions, the former is what I grew up on. Those sorts of bugs are less frequent it seems in the PC port which I picked up recently... though they got other problems such as torches that are louder than the characters lol. I agree with a lot of it, especially for newer players, as a kid I remember it being frustrating. Saying to git gud isn't the problem. Yes especially as someone that has A ranked the entire game several times too, it helps, and getting good both provides you with a solid experience, while casual runs then are fun because you know the ins and outs. Although keeping levels after dying I don't 100% agree with, especially because it counts massively towards your point total, it'd make getting A ranks too easy. I think losing a node would be fine, if you have the team all at 3, then they drop to 2 when you die, if Sonic and Knuckles are 2 while Tails is 3 then they drop to 1 while Tails drops to 2, etc. It is a bit punishing, but it isn't completely unfair, and taking that away could make it too easy. The game needs other areas to be improved too, especially the pinball physics lol... get PTSD whenever I hear those songs. I also don't think the speeds are the problem. It should be smooth, but making Tails or Knuckles faster isn't a great idea either. Sonic is about speed, but ironically Sonic games have always been more than that. Exploring your environments, having your own freedom to traverse levels, going at your own speed has always been Sonic's thing, way back since Sonic 2, and... technically 1 it's just only Green Hill handles this design well, then the game falls off and makes stuff too linear. Which is a bit ironic to mention I know, especially when Mystic Mansion is probably my favorite level lol, but that's always been the case. Also as much and as many problems as it has I think I'd still rather an Adventure 1 and 2 remake 1st. Especially that problem of forcing you to play every character, it is a much bigger problem in A1, especially when only 2-3 of the characters are fun. Heroes is more unfair due to bugs... but they're more unfiar due to their actual mechanics not being great.

[@cozmodiego1727]

forces and mania did try the team mechanics tho