Why the Agarthans are Actually Great

This might be a cope, but what do you think?
#fireemblemthreehopes #fireemblemthreehouses

[@Megajmaster1000]

Honestly I always liked the agarthans, not from what they bring morally to the games' narratives, but from what they bring to the worldbuilding of the games. Having a faction with forbidden knowledge and advancements that drastically go beyond the society of fodlan (on top of our very own) naturally brings intrigue due to heavily contrasting what the game showed prior. From Aesthetic, weaponry, culture and even their music. I feel like even after 2 games we've barely scratched the surface with these people and what they're truly capable of.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I totally agree, they do a great job serving the games themes in the background. I think they were never serve a deep moral narrative role in the games so I've been satisfied. I was hoping that we could see a little more of the war of liberation in three hopes, but I was happy that we got the insight that we did

[@furfousir1420]

What makes me fan of TWSID is how much political power they have over Fódlan not just in the present, but throughout history. We see how they are able to convince the western church and Lord Lonato to rebel against the Central Church in order to raise questions against the central church’s authority in order to make Edelgard’s Conquest lot easier and justifiable, which they themselves assist in the war as well as persuade Edelgard to raise an army against Rhea’s militia. And they have been doing it throughout history as well: The texts in Abyss through the DLC reveal that they assisted in Faerghus’s creation by aiding Loog’s rebellion by providing soldiers, Hero’s Relics, and his strategist Pan, probably they could divide the continent and it make it easier for them to wipe out the remaining Nabateans in the future. In essence, the Agarthans have enough power and technology to trick the people above into doing their dirty work and only have to actually involved when their schemes are uncovered.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Totally, their subversive influence on all of fodlan's history has always been so interesting and really fleshes out the games world. I also really enjoyed the agarthan book in abyss giving their perspective of the goddess and how she "saved the beasts" (normal people lol) and gave retribution to the agarthans because even in pre-history they were horribly abusing people.

[@qt1335]

“To relate this lofty philosophical topic to my anime video game”, you’re the best lol

[@Dakress23]

I legit don't think the Agarthans being all bad is a bad thing narrative wise, as I agree it helps set up a huge contrast with... everyone else. Also that ending was perfect.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Glad that we agree. And thanks! I was shook by it in my first playthrough lmao

[@bloobushviper5709]

One word: Cleobussy

[@ordinaryunits4341]

😳

[@olly_lmao]

cleobulussy rolls off better imo

[@Donproductions]

@@olly_lmao seconded i to like cleobulussy

[@eemelikorteniemi3966]

1:15 I think you skipped a part here. I am pretty sure at first they rebelled directly against the goddess, but were almost annihilated and driven underground. Then, after the goddess went... Asleep? They started the Nemesis plot.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Yes, I decided to leave some things on the cutting floor to not make too much of the video a lore dump, but I might have made it too short in this case. Maybe I'll make a proper lore video where I lay everything out in a clear and thorough way in the future to make up for it.

[@Kakashi20xd6]

The Agarthans themselves might not be a problem, but Shambala presents its own issues. Even if they are a limited tactical asset that risks exposing the city’s location to those actively looking for it, there are too many situations where the javelins of light could have been used. Like, why not just drop a few on Arienrhod in order to kill both Edelgard and Dimitri? Plus, the pods containing Nemesis and The Ten Elites are a lingering threat that only gets dealt with in a single timeline. The exact rules behind behind Agarthan bodysnatching should have been established as well. Why not replace Lambert or Rufus directly after Duscur?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Totally fair points, and like I said at the end I'm not necessarily applauding their implementation in the games story because of how inconsistent it could be. Not to make excuses for flawed writing, but I think that the javelins of light weren't used because they wanted to remain hidden from the forces that be in fodlan until they thought they could secure power for themselves (hubert could track the javelin back to Shambhala which led to its destruction) and the bodysnatching seems to require a somewhat extended period of time to occur, which would leave high ranking public figures difficult to replace (as seen in monica being processed in three hopes). The lack of javelins of light in three hopes is definitely weird though and the nemesis fight was definitely an asspull just to be cool lol

[@eemelikorteniemi3966]

You know, I was also wondering about the Arianrhod thing, but then Thales pulled off what he did. I suppose in the end they still had a use for Edelgard and wanted to destroy arianrhod without killing her

[@justinianthe1st790]

Azure Gleam "redeemed" the Agarthans. They were actually a threat. They got things done. They super wrecked Edelgard as opposed to never really getting a chance to in 3H. They've been the main antagonists throughout AG and felt super satisfying to beat by the end.

[@justinianthe1st790]

@Methodius Chad of all Chads behavior right there. What a great story and ending. As usual Dimitri gets the best route. Couldnt have it any other way.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

True, they really turned it around with them being almost entirely absent from azure moon in three houses. It was definitely refreshing to see Dimitri finally understanding them..

[@santiagogaviriasuarez7541]

@@justinianthe1st790 Honestly I prefer a lot more Scarlet Blaze final battle or even Golden wildfire, what was the point of defeating a brainwashed Edelgard so many times only to attack Thale also how she with the mentality of a little girl is able to fight with the axe? What was Thales thinking in sending her to fight like that and no turning her into the Hegemon is just stupid. From the three final bosses fight is easily the worst executed.

[@pn2294]

@@justinianthe1st790 I don’t know about “best route”. It felt really small to me.

[@justinianthe1st790]

@@santiagogaviriasuarez7541 Because that makes the final battle longer. Because she is TWSITD ultimate weapon. Because mentally being regressive isnt something that intrinsically makes Edelgard unable to fight. Why would it? Because she is their ultimate weapon. For all we know Hegemon Edelgard is unperfected. Secondly the last time it showed up, it attacked friend and foe alike. Third she turned into the hegemon with the Crest stone of the beast. The same one in Amyr. She cant both be hegemon and use Amyr. Thales probably (within reason) believed throwing almost everything at Dimitri would be enough. It was kind of a close fight anyway. Claude made it a hard W. I havent played the others. But as far as I'm concerned, this fight couldn't have been any better. Thank god hegemon Edelgard wasnt the final boss. I perfer for unique final bosses to stay unique.

[@user-unos111]

I wonder there would be possible to see a science based villain in this series, only more in line with the technological level of this series. For example a villain part of the antagonist group that resembles an evil Leonardo de Vinci or Archimedes, building weapons and war engines for their army. Or maybe a middle ages version of unit 731.

[@kamilapodolak9289]

What I think people miss about the Agarthans is that they didn't create the system which makes Fodlan a bad place. I know it's an easy gotcha against characters you don't like: "oh they just believed the slithers' lies". What they did instead was use the system meant to protect the Nabateans to their advantage. People believe power is a gift from the goddess? Surely they will do anything, even murder children, to get that power. Humanity got caught in crossfire. Flame Emperor in FEH even says something to that effect. The leaders of both factions hold grudge against humans and have their reasons to want them subjugated. I think that's why Hopes had them eradicate each other. Might be an unpopular opinion, but I've discussed it at lenght with other lore enthusiasts.

[@DarkAngel69604]

You make a very interesting case, I have to to think and rethink about.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Glad to hear it!

[@theartpuppet4220]

Agarthans got that trans rep with Cornelia and the nb rep with Arval. I will never stop loving them i dont care if they are evil

[@Sao0011]

Agarthans did nothing wrong *The Entire Foldan breath HEAVYLI*

[@coldhazzard]

idk why i didnt think i would be spoiled i think i was just half listening until that part wtf i have no one to blame but myself

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I've been there lmao

[@vildrum3811]

With all the endless debates of which lord commits the most war crimes or whatever, the Agarthans being unambiguously evil is honestly refreshing. My biggest complaint with them is that despite being such major players, they kind of lack presence at times. It feels like once the war phase rolls around, they just sit on their hands and let things play out. The lore around them is cool and intriguing, but also presents a lot of questions I'm not sure the devs could answer. Like for instance, why do they all still use medieval weaponry when they live in a futuristic city and have access to tactical nukes and mechas?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Totally agree. I will say I think the power levels of things are hard to assess in the game because one person without a crest can hypothetically destroy some of those mechs lol. I think in lore crest users are supposed to be supremely powerful, but it can be kind of unclear sometimes.

[@joeyjose727]

Thales is hot and deserved redemption

[@hrjejhhehd4071]

I think it was cool in three hopes they explored the agarthans a bit more with epimendes cause I think in three houses they more just play the role of evil mole men, still kinda wished they explored their goals/ideals a bit more

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I feel you, I think as a civilization they're just content to look down on all non-agarthans and want to exploit them because they think that its their right to do so. But I'd also love to see more of the kind of stuff we saw in their book in the abyss library.

[@hilgigas09]

Have the Agarthans been body-snatching surface dwellers, Orochimaru style, or have they been passing their hate for Nabateans to their descendants? The Arval Paralogue and Kronya's death scene raise a lot of questions.

[@stewb1409]

The Agarthians attached Crest Stones to their hearts to prolong their lifespan, they are the same people who butchered Sothis and all that stuff from 1400 years ago.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Exactly, it seems that the same players are all there from like a millennium before.

[@aaronhenderson670]

three words: kinetic orbital bombardment

[@ordinaryunits4341]

based

[@jonclark1405]

I may have my lore confused, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but hadn't the Agarthans already developed society and such before Sothis arrived? Not to sound like an Agarthan apologist, they're vile, but in the context of an alien entity arriving and creating a race of beings that are super powerful compared to you and then promising that they're totally benevolent and won't try to exert said power for evil...I don't know, violent opposition doesn't sound unreasonable. Modern day Agarthans, though? They're just hateful pricks with no common sense.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Don't worry about it, it's actually a great question that I had myself a while ago. There's an agarthan book in abyss that essentially describes their point of view during the coming of the goddess, but they don't do themselves any favors in it lmao. They describe their hatred for the goddess as existing because of the salvation she provides for the beasts (humans that aren't agarthans) because they had "spilled too much of the blood of life". So while they could have been sympathetic, it turns out that they were actually getting a taste of their own abuse. But in the case you described I would definitely be uncomfortable with a "benevolent" all powerful goddess showing up and taking control of the world.

[@jonclark1405]

Oh wow. They really are just bad people, huh?

[@l.n.3372]

My problems with the Agarthans are two fold: A) the javelins of light are stupidly inconsistent and thus nothing short of a plot hole as to why and when they are vs aren't used. This could have been avoided if they simply didn't have such weapons in the first place. B) they obviously exist only as set-up fodder for everything else. They exist: to give Seiros a backstory re: Nemesis in the past, to give Dimitri a backstory re: the tragedy of Duscur, to give Edelgard a backstory re: the experimentation and the double crests. That's it. Plot wise, they don't have any function except to set up other characters and make them more tragic. As such, they also exist to make Edelgard less "evil" because she's being manipulated by the Agarthans too. As if the existence of the Agarthans is meant to scream: "hey, Edelgard may be a villain but she's just a stepping stone compared to the REAL threats!" IMO, AM did it the right way by killing off Cornelia and Arundel early on, and then focusing on the Dimitri vs Edelgard conflict. However, AG also did it with an interesting way: by showing Cleobulus and Thales at their peak, then brainwashed Edelgard into their puppet, and showing off their true power and influence. Hence Dimitri finally learns the truth about who was responsible for the tragedy.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I can understand the javelin of light critique because I was kind of taken of guard by them too, but I do think that they're a bit more than fodder thematically. As I said in the video they kind of act like a foil to the good faith ideologies of the lords and rhea, in their supremacist goals/abuse of others. I think that making edelgard a little more nuanced was good an created an interesting narrative. But I totally agree that Azure moon had the strongest narrative because they focused on the main conflict between edelgard and dimitri and didn't get overly ambitious.

[@l.n.3372]

@@ordinaryunits4341 Heya! It's nice to debate with people so I'm happy to do so. Re: javelins, I disagree only because there's no set rhyme or reason to them. If they had concrete explanation then maybe I'd be fine with it. But there is none. There's no explanation for why Thales doesn't nuke Edelgard immediately after CF ends lol. Nor is there an explanation as for why Nemesis came back only in VW when the situation was the exact same in SS too. The Agarthans are built off plot holes and I hate it LMAO Re: Edelgard, you don't need the Agarthans to make Edelgard have depth and complexity. She does that on her own. If anything, the Agarthans are a cop out. Imagine how much better 3H would be if they didn't exist. If you've played other 3H, think about how Sacred Stones didn't need evil mole people: it was just about Lyon vs the twins, how Lyon chose a path of darkness born of self loathing of himself, jealousy towards Ephraim, and love for Eirika that he felt she would never love him back. It didn't need evil mole people to be a good story. Lyon has as much depth and complexity as Edelgard does. Dimitri is the Ephraim/Eirika to Edelgard's Lyon here. Mole people not necessary at all! XD

[@ordinaryunits4341]

@@l.n.3372 Glad to hear it I always like thoughtful debates too! I agree that the agarthans implementation in the plots of certain routes is a mixed bag. The normal explanation for the pillars of light not being used frequently would be that they had used them before against the goddess and failed, making them afraid to use because they were worried they would expose themselves to be finally wiped out like in verdant wind. But because crimson flower in general is a little half baked that definitely makes sense. Rhea isn't around anymore to really stop them from doing that and no one else would reasonably know about them to strike back so it would be cut and dry. Also nemesis was a huge asspull but I did think it was cool lol I do have to say I stand by edelgard being more compelling with the mole people haha. These alternative views of history would be nigh impossible to come by in such an intellectually closed system like fodlan, so there kind of needs to be a dissenting force to create the ideological dissent to spur edelgard. Her goal against the church isn't a selfishly motivated but rather a selfless consequentialist one that believes war is the only way to see justice through. Without their being some misinformation/manipulation it would be difficult to make her war actually seem justified or could seem too justified in the face of a rotten church. Both are extremes that make it harder to make her such a grey character. I'd say someone like Lyon is a very different character than edelgard and is more traditionally black and white than edelgard because of his direct and somewhat self oriented motivations.

[@l.n.3372]

@@ordinaryunits4341 I think we agree on the Agarthans for the most part. Good in concept but pretty terrible in most execution lol. But I'll confess that I think your analysis of Edelgard is slightly off, IMO. Not a personal attack against you, of course. But I think you're missing key aspects about Edelgard here. And because of this, you're giving Edelgard extra credit she doesn't deserve. Because the Agarthans kinda ruined her character in 3H a lot, and she would be far better off as a character without their existence in 3H. She can still believe false history: because her father Ionius himself is wrong about history too. It's like a game of telephone where people believe wrong things and don't bother to check for facts. 3H Claude checks for the truth in VW. Edelgard's conquest is absolutely selfishly motivated. There is no selfless conquest xD it doesn't exist. A conquest by definition is something you impose upon other people because of various reasons. For Edelgard, it's because she falsely believes things that aren't true about Fodlan history, and falsely believes only she can fix Fodlan. This is selfish and arrogant and wrong. She's also selfish to think that Dimitri and Claude can't fix their own home countries without her imposing her will upon Faerghus and Leicester. That's absolutely selfish and arrogant. She wants to annex and conquer the Kingdom and Alliance because she's salty that both nations broke away from the Empire like 200 years ago: this sounds like a resentful dictator who wants their lost territory back. She doesn't actually want reform, or she would allow Dimitri and Claude to fix their own countries. She wants conquest and nothing else. She wants to "rule all of Fodlan under her command" and will kill anyone who opposed her. This is proven again in Hopes. She asks the church to help her kick Arundel/Thales out of Adrestia. Then she reforms Adrestia. But even tho Dimitri is reforming Faerghus, that doesn't matter: she wants the Kingdom back and will not stop until she's conquered Fodlan again. She also said in her support with Balthus that she's not a compassionate or merciful person: she will help her allies only if the benefit her, and will crush anyone who doesn't agree with her. This is reinforced with her Monica support, where she admits she only saved Monica because it was convenient and not because it was the right thing to do; she also admits that she would have left Monica to die if the Agarthans had wanted it, because she was their ally beforehand. These are brutally honest and I credit Edelgard for not mincing her words. But these aren't what a selfless person does. These aren't good actions. They're selfish and she's selfish at heart because it's either her way or the highway. That's why she's an effective villain. The Agarthans don't make Edelgard better: they make her way worse. They take away her agency completely. They make her complicit in everything in 3H. I don't like SB much in Hopes, but the one good thing it did was cut Edelgard off from the Agarthans. Because now, she isn't complicit anymore. Lyon isn't a playable villain like Edelgard is. But he has full agency in his choices. He chose to accept Formortiis into his soul. He chose to act upon his jealousy and unrequited love. He made bad choices and deals with the consequences. Edelgard makes bad choices and rarely faces any consequences in CF because the devs are too afraid to do anything. They're so obsessed with making her likable to ship her with Byleth, that every deep moment is stepped on with more self insert avatar pandering. Contrast with Edelgard, who chooses to ally with the Agarthans and is never punished for her role in hiring Kostas to murder Dimitri and Claude, allowing the Death to kidnap Flayn, not telling anyone that Monica is Kronya, not warning Byleth and then Kronya kills Jeralt, lying about Agarthans destroying Arianrhod with the javelins of light etc.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Don't sweat it, it didn't come off as a personal attack at all! I think that you're comment was really well thought out and I'll keep it in mind for my Edelagard three hopes analysis. I would disagree a bit though and say that I think that you aren't considering differences in intentionality and culpability though when evaluating edelgard's character. On intentionality, I agree that edelgard's conquest is arrogant, a little short sighted and an imposition of her will. However, I do still disagree that her situation is similar to lyon in that Edelgard is acting for what she (in her limited and flawed belief) believes to be the greater good of all people (ethics), while lyon acts for his own passions (his unrequited love). While Edelgard is incorrect in her assumptions about it being for the greater good (in most frameworks) she still fixates her conquest on the people's benefit. Lyon doesn't act in the interest of an ethical good, but to fulfill satisfy his feelings of jealousy. I agree that Edelgard and Lyon are both willing actors within both stories that makes their choices and knowingly stand by them, but their intentions differ a lot. On culpability, Edelgard can still be held accountable for those decisions she made in dealing with the agarthans because she chose to work with them and their unsavory methods to achieve her dream of conquest. People can be manipulated while having agency of their own and edelgard showcases this in CF and SB when she acts against the agarthans despite their continued influence on her perspective and vision. If you still disagree I get it, but hopefully I helped you understand some of my perspective, thanks for debating with me!

[@koukkoufos2000]

Those who slither in the dark you mean 😂 I know their nationality is Agarthans but I think it’s funnier to call them those who slither in the dark like Hubert does 😂

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Damn looks like a fumbled the bag on this one lmao

[@koukkoufos2000]

@Methodius Those who rape in the dark 😂

[@koukkoufos2000]

@@ordinaryunits4341 Nah dude, cool video regardless, those who slither in the dark would’ve been a better title though lol

[@lorddragonskin3603]

@Methodius Dubstep Molepeople

[@nightwish1453]

Or like shez says it “slithery people”

[@ThuglasElBosso]

Eh Ehehehehehehe HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA huh~ Is this some kind of extended cope?! Edit: I agree with your analysis on the Agarthans being the antithesis to the game's themes, and its influence poisoning Fodlan to make sure the plot of Three Houses happens. Though looking back at Arval, I can't say I sympathise with him, since he immediately goes into the Dubstep Mole People Grindset after learning he's Epimenedes, which might be intended. Very nice video, would kill dragons and turn their bones into weapons 👍

[@DarkAdonisVyers]

Every dragonslayer in every game that I know: First time?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Lmao love the reference. I'm glad that you agree with my take on them. I definitely didn't sympathize with arval towards the end, but I'm honestly not sure if I was supposed to. Thanks for the support!

[@stewb1409]

If you're meaning the Agartian Civilization is "Great as an enemy" then yeah, I agree. They're brilliant as people with no redeemable qualities. To correct what you said though - They didn't hire Nermisis to slaughter the Red Canyon, they hired him to sneak into the Holy Tomb where Sothis was in a deep slumber from her war against the Agarthians and he stole her body which they butchered and used her bones to make the Sword Of The Creator, her heart became the Crest Stone of Flames (Sothis's own crest is the Crest Of Flames) and they used her blood to give Nemisis her crest (Because her Consciousness was still in her Crest Stone and woulda transformed Nemisis like Miklan if he didn't have her blood to fool her Crest Stone into thinking the wielder was in fact her) and THEN they sent nemeisis with his Ten Elites to Zanado to slaughter the Nabateans (Half Dragon children of Sothis) of which there had to be at least 30 - 40 present given the number of Crest Stones around in Three Houses and Three Hopes. Then they butchered those Nabateans to make the Hero's Relics and gave their corresponding blood to the Ten Elites, again to fool the Crests Stones into not transforming the wielders. The Agarthians aren't a different civilization to the current humans of Fodlan either - they are just rebels who attached Crest Stones to their hearts (Making them like Byleth, except their stones are from Half Dragons and Byleth's come from an actual Dragon, also Byleth livesi n harmony with Sothis, whereas they forced and enslaved the Crst Stone's consciousnesses). They are just arrogant greedy humans, not a different people. Also - The Church Of Seiros was formed almost directly after the massacre at Zanado - That is when Rhea renamed herself to Seiros (Seiros WASN'T her birth name, you find this out in Three Houses) and made the Church Of Seiros to protect her remaining brothers (Cichol, Indech and Macuil - Flayn was born after this, she was born in Enbarr which Seiros founded to make an empire to help her then go to war with the Agarthians and Nemisis) as she used the lie of Crests being the gift of the Goddess (Which Sothis never claimed to be) to stop people from realising they could gang up on and murder Nabateans to get a Crest XD. Of this lie gets out of hand and leads the way for Thales to give mis-information to the Hresvelg family for the next 995 years after Seiros beats down Nemisis to sufficiently brainwash poor Edelgard into attacking Rhea after they torture her to use the remaining blood of Sothis to give her the Crest Of Flames and enough power to kill Rhea (The Agarthians were too weak to actually kill Rhea, given she single handedly beat down the strongest pawn they had on Tailtean Plains LOL) Three Hopes so far has seemed to completely gotten the lore wrong at key points. While I can let them away with Shez as they introduced him as a "What if?", I can't ignore stuff like their trasforming power being their own, rather than the power they use from the Crest Stones attached to their hearts, or their dark magic being their perverted form of magic from said Crest Stones. Then there is the huge Monica plot hole - Hilda, a friend of Monica, specifically states that Monica had NOTHING to do with Edelgard prior to her kidnapping and her sudden friendliness to Edelgard was shocking to her, yet Three Hopes treats Monica like a Edelgard fangirl from before her kidnapping :S I simply cannot see any reason for Edelgard to know of or even care about Monica :S Sorry for this long post if you made it this far, although if you did make it this far - you probably aren't bothered :P

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I don't mind the long post at all, in fact I thought it raised a ton of awesome points! You're totally right I forgot to mention nemesis's raiding of the holy tomb for sothis' body my bad. I did kind of categorize them as a separate people intentionally though because that's how they identify themselves within this agarthan book in abyss where they describe their ideal world before the goddess where they abused the "beasts" (normal humans) and the goddess came and offered salvation for the abused. So in that sense I would say that they are different by their own design and greedy lol. It's definitely funny how even with their superiority complex, centuries of planning and insane tech that they were still too weak to actually achieve their goals by themselves and seem to always get burned in every route in both three houses and three hopes. Thanks for the comment!

[@stewb1409]

No prob - although I have still to complete Golden Wildfire (Currently doing it on NG+ maddening mode, so It may take me a while to do that and find any lore hidden away there XD) Fair point about their own choice to be different and I guess biologically they are now with those crest stones attached to their hearts for so long, who knows what they are now? :D

[@kohai-kun9261]

I personally find the Agarthans to be pretty solid, all things considered. They were *extremely* effective at bringing complete and utter chaos to Fodlan, despite what most normies/Edelgard simps claim. The texts you can read in Abyss in the Cindered Shadows DLC are especially telling -- they show that a majority of major political upheavals in Fodlan ever since the War of Liberation were caused primarily by their machinations. I.E, body-snatching key lords throughout history in order to incite wars of independence/succession, giving weapons/tech to the people who would ultimately break away from Adrestia and found Faerghus, and other such instances that all served to not only incite chaos in Fodlan at the time they happened, but also set the stage for even greater upheaval down the line -- "This Empire of theirs is too big, too united -- let's go do some shenanigans and help convince some radicals to secede. It's a two-for-one deal! We get a free war now, *and* we've set the stage for these two powers to have beef down the line -- more wars! It's a win-win!" Not to mention that one of their major goals was "envelop Fodlan in chaos" and, through their meddling and influence, *all of Three Houses/Three Hopes happens lol*. Sure, they may have lost in the end to the power of "being the main characters in the game", but damn if they didn't raise hell with the war itself. Their success is also in large part enabled by the many flaws in the system that Seiros created. Create a society in which Crests determine your lot in life? Well, then, it'd be extremely easy to manipulate a crestless person into doing all manner of depraved things. Create a society in which goods and resources are distributed unequitably? Mate that's *easy* kindling for some civil unrest. Had Seiros created a more equitable system, the Agarthans would have had a *much* harder time manipulating Fodlan like they did. But she didn't, so they had a comparatively easy time of it.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Yeah it's easy sometimes to look at the agarthans ultimate failure and to assume that they weren't formidable villains, but they really did come to define much of fodlan's situation for most of its history and almost achieved all of their goals absolutely. Seiros definitely tried her best to turn the L that was crests and heroes relics into a good thing for the followers of the goddess. But there are always issues with any value hierarchies and the power of crests/HR were too much power to not have those issues.

[@sueflewelling3657]

good video i have a question for you if you want?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Of course what's up?

[@sueflewelling3657]

@@ordinaryunits4341 i like to talk about dimitri and edelgard if you want?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

@@sueflewelling3657 Sure! about their conflicting ideas, personalities or their past?

[@sueflewelling3657]

@@ordinaryunits4341 its more have the reason on they didbthr things they do what say you?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Oh totally so Edelgard and Dimitri in three houses have fundamental difference in the ways that they think political change out to be realized. Edelgard is a revolutionary while dimitri is a reformist. So edelgard see violence as a legitimate means of reforming fodlan, while dimitri views it as unnacceptable. It's a shame because both dimitri and edelgard want similar reforms to take, but their differing views on causing change and their limited perspectives cause them to be in inevitable opposition to one another.

[@GenMars]

why take the general discourse into account when they are wrong and stupid

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Unbelievably based lmao

[@qt1335]

I can see where they’re coming from tbh, they just took it too far

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Nah, I think the Agarthans aren't really the most compelling antagonists in the story. I might go as far as to say that they don't fit within the story of Fódlan, due to them hurting the idea of this story being about different perspectives with each having legitimate grievances and moral standpoints in a way that makes no sense. They also reduce much of the blame for Edelgard's and Rhea's actions as they were the ones behind most of the issues in the story, but aren't addressed at all by most of the characters, making the routes with the intent to destroy them the most golden ones, like SS and VW, since you can blame anything on them, including massacres of villages. On top of them being so powerful and masterful manipulators, they ironically undermine their plans that makes no sense within the story, as they should have won many times, but didn't because the plot demanded their ruin. That isn't interesting. It's clear that the Agarthans are modeled after the Nazis with their racism, their militaristic nature, their affiliation with Germany via Adrestia and their esoteric roots within Nazi mysticism, which is a very interesting background story and I find their lore very intriguing. The story on the other hand does very little with it and instead of making us question religious rule like the story wants us to do it, they reinforce by making the Nabateans the good guys. The worst thing is that unlike in other FE games, there is no good agarthan who believes in equality. That ndermines greatly the theme of trying to overcome xenophobia and that they are Nazis isn't a good point, because Germany changed after it was beaten in WW2. A better way they could have been used in Fire Emblem had they been more like the Enclave from Fallout, where they conduct a plan in secret where they kill all "mutants" on earth and while you learn it, you can see not some mad people, but very human ones with irrational believes and a overly unprecedented sense of entitlement and superiority. They are everything wrong about the old world and they show it. FE never had that context and though the Agarthans have this role of everything wrong about this continent, they are too incompetent and too uninvolved in the story to really be threatening. Therefore Rhea is the best contrast to the lords, as each of her failures is seen within the lords and since her organization is the "dominant" force, she serves better as antagonist here or Edelgard can fulfil that role. Three Hopes only entertained the idea that the Nabateans were the ones to burn the world, which would imply that none of the two were innocent, but what does it make Rhea and the Nabateans? Lizard Nazis? I think a better story would have made the Agarthans and Nabateans a little better explored in the story with you hearing both sides and if they still want the agarthans to be evil molemen, just have them give us illegitimate beef with the Nabateans or like the Enclave I mentioned, make it so that the Agarthans we see be the surviving government body with their soldiers and uptight elite, basically the higher upside of their society. The rest, the middle class and the poor, the 99% of their society perished within the flames, leaving only these guys behind who were responsible for the war. That makes it far easier to raid Shambala completely and have some of the Agarthans help us, because that would help again with the theme of overcoming xenophobia. Even in Fallout, we see some Enclave people redeem themselves and in New Vegas, some of them can even help us against a new breed of fascists. With Epimenedes, I have some views on him that I would rather explore in a video centered around him, but for now, I do think you made the best case for the Agarthans as villians, they were in my eyes best written in VW and AG, since the story does more with them.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I definitely agree that the agarthans aren't the most compelling antagonists of the game (that would definitely go to either edelgard or rhea), but I do think that being an absolutist supremacist group makes them an excellent foil to everyone else and the games themes. In my mind they kind of hit home the main themes of the game showing how important perspectivism is. I also think that Edelgard and Rhea still house blame for various things, the only thing is that they were pushed into their less savory actions by the Agarthans making them more tragic and compelling imo. I don't think that the agarthans are supposed to represent nazism because they don't really share any overt or subtle symbolism/imagery with them, but rather represent the mindset of making people "others" and disregarding their views. Kind of like how the greeks and romans denoted everyone outside of the general Mediterranean Hellenic world as being barbaric. I actually like that none of them are sympathetic in that regard because it's believable that in such a cruel society its likely that they excised anyone who wasn't compliant with their worldview. Finally I totally agree that were beast written in Verdant Wind and Azure Gleam. Their lesser showings were always a fault of the games narrative being a little too ambitious imo lol. I really appreciate your engaging comment, it gave me a lot to think about!

[@Fallendown-pq1ot]

Cleobulus is a girl?

[@stefanpereira9367]

So... race purists?

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Yeah seems to be their most prominent trait lol

[@illusive-mike]

There's so much wrong in this video. The lore holes were already pointed out in other comments, so I'll move on to other issues. The Master and Slave moralities have established definitions in Nietzsche beyond their resentment-based dynamic, as the Master morality is one of the rule of the strong that requires no justification. Slave morality attempts to subvert that by imposing a moral Good that is counter to the pure success-driven Master morality, and an Evil that is distinct from the failure that the Master morality condemns. Notably, neither Nabatean nor Agarthan world orders fit these molds perfectly, and moreover, one of the major themes of Black Eagles routes, both CF and SB, is that they are quite compatible on a moral level. Rhea appropriates the feudalism created by Nemesis (the purest example of Master morality in the story) and gives it a fresh coat of moralistic paint, only to have it naturally fall in line with the desires of Agarthans, who barely have to exert their own power in support of purely human corruption. Next up, the theme of perspective has layers to it as well. For all that each side has misconceptions of all others that help them dehumanize and demonize their opponents, it's important to note that conflict between them isn't based fully in that. Edelgard and Dimitri have plainly incompatible moralities. Dimitri states very well in his route that everyone has things they cannot accept. Yes, Edelgard may misinterpret Rhea's role in Fodlan's suffering as her own morality makes her incapable of comprehending inaction in the face of injustice as anything but approval thereof, but at the end that's just it. She can't allow the system to continue, while Dimitri and Rhea for their own reasons can't allow it to fall (which in particular motivates Dimitri to keep fighting after he overcomes his initial madness). None of these reasons are a "character flaw", as they are very much political positions (radical interventionism, moderate reformism, religious apocalypticism). And with this view of the themes, Agarthans don't actually work, as they really are as bad as they seem. They don't have a truth of their own like the others. All they do is mess up any judgement on Edelgard by diluting her culpability and agency (as seen in AG, where they're used to outright destroy it). When then comparing AG against other routes, this actually diminishes Dimitri by denying him a chance to contrast his stance against an Edelgard with full control of her actions and instead having him face "true evil". It gives a perception of positioning him against a strawman. This is similar to how CF Edelgard never gets to rebuke Rhea's true position (which to her is just incomprehensible, but within her values is still unacceptable) as she never gets to learn it while Rhea completely loses it. The Agarthans do not enrich the themes of Three Houses, because these themes do not require a perfectly evil antagonist to bring them together. Nor does the history of Fodlan require a group of molemen to claim all of the entirely human atrocities like Duscur. And it doesn't help that the Agarthans are characterized as arrogant to the extent of screwing themselves over at every step, so for example CF actually ends with Agarthans in the perfect spot to be immediately wiped out after using their traceable Javelins on Arianrhod and having Thales stay to watch Fhirdiad burn instead of launching them to finish off Edelgard. And then of course comes AG, and suddenly the Agarthans aren't the blithering idiots they are on all other routes of both games and have an override for Edelgard that they never once demonstrated in CF or SB. They are not a useful thematic element. They're a badly used plot device.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

There's so much wrong with this comment. The lore comments were already addressed, so I'll move onto other issues. As this isn't a Nietzschean game the character's and setting will never totally reflect the master and slave morality, but I wanted to apply it to the framework specifically because of the relationship of resentment. Good and Evil don't predate the existence of slave morality and are inherent to human existence. Furthermore, you're read on Nemesis having the purest form of noble morality is laughably wrong; nemesis doesn't have stratified noble and common classes, instead operating what is essentially a tribe of bandits. A more apt comparison for pure master morality is the agarthans pre-goddess. However, as they lost in the natural contest of power endemic to the master morality class they soon became a people that lost their distinct value system and instead refocused entirely on negating and destroying the value system of the goddess. Thus my comparison stands, even if it doesn't apply perfectly. Next up the theme of perspective does have layers to it, there are legitimate political views to each of the 3 lords but that doesn't necessarily mean that tragic character flaws cause much of the suffering in the game. Edelgard has oversights implanted in her by the agarthans that cause her to see violent uprising. Dimitri lets his desire for vengeful justice consume him. And Claude is unable to make any impact by himself. There a real political issues and ideals behind their conflict, but they all share similar perspectives on reform that likely could have been worked out should the dramatic irony not have kept them from really understanding the situation. The agarthans do reinforce an overall ethos of understanding the truths of others, because their absolutist supremacy is what ultimately ends in their downfall and showcases their sheer depravity. Their not being sympathetic showcases an inherent flaw of believing absolutely in their supremacy compared to the understanding that all three lords gain with byleth. The anything goes supremacists sowing chaos among ideologues ignorant of perspective fits pretty well. I agree that azure gleam was narratively weaker than azure moon, but it has nothing to do with "so much being wrong with this video". I never state within this video that the game required a more traditionally "evil" force to have its theme of perspective, but rather stated that it enhanced it. The human selfishness intrinsic to atrocities like duscur is not erased by having a malicious force facilitate it. They aren't blithering idiots because its clear that they have been unable to defeat the nabiteans and other humans with their tech in the past, however their conspiracies sent the continent into chaos and they narrowly achieved their goal without a godlike protagonist shifting the tide in x lord's favor. I'm all for critical comments and engaging with my videos failings, but rude and patronizing ones like this are cringe.

[@illusive-mike]

@@ordinaryunits4341 I won't make any apologies that would sound insincere in my visible frustration. I'll just say that this response doubles down on the positions that I see as bad in the video and work from there. If anything, Nemesis had the clearest stratification of them all with the Ten Elites, definitively elevated over the rank and file through the power of Crests and Relics. As for the Agarthans, we know next to nothing about their actual society before Sothis's arrival and their war with her (not even the cause of said war, unless you consider Rhea, who was a child at the time, a reliable narrator on the topic), and they seek the physical destruction of the Nabateans, not to topple the ramshackle moral system that Rhea tried to reclaim from Nemesis. Again, they actually operate quite fluidly in it. The interplay of moral resentment isn't very applicable to the clearly ethnic tension at play with Agarthans, and trying to fit it in there just makes the video come across as unnecessarily pretentious. To say that Edelgard's violence is a character flaw is very much a political statement, whereas she does actually have a flaw in her crippled self-esteem that stops her from drawing on the Eagles for support, something that doesn't play into her starting the war. Indeed, she overcomes this in the opening of Hopes by ridding herself of the weight of Thales, builds up her vision for the Empire and then starts the war anyway. Claude is unable to accomplish anything by himself due to a lack of power, as all potential allies come with various deal-breakers and he eventually settles with the Church in VW mostly by default. Fodlan was already suffering deeply under the complacent feudalism fostered by Rhea, who in turn saw bringing back the Goddess as the only solution to human suffering. And the lords' perspectives on reform aren't similar at all beyond all acknowledging the need for it, with Edelgard seeking immediate change regardless of short-term costs, Dimitri unwilling to abandon the power structures that support the people even if the same power structures oppress them and Rhea having no plan of her own beyond getting humans out of power (directly counter to Edelgard's idea of empowering everyone). The idea of "it all could've been avoided if they talked it out" is a bad reading of the real tragedy of Fodlan: that while all sides wanted the best, war was still inevitable. This is not even getting into the issues of Western Faerghus, the Insurrection of the Seven and the Alliance Roundtable. The lords didn't even have political capital for reform pre-war, and going with it anyway in Hopes resulted in a bloody civil war in Faerghus and a pivot to the "Southern Church strategy" in Adrestia, both serious failures by the standards of their respective lords. The Agarthans are an outside-context problem for Fodlan, and it's really hard to credit them with much success for taking centuries to play into the pre-existing flaws of the humans to hasten already on-going decay when not faced with any resistance. Meanwhile their direct appearances are always characterized by crippling arrogance that sees them clutch defeat from the jaws of victory even in favorable scenarios like CF simply because Thales decided to take his time watching the carnage instead of launching missiles in the last opportunity he had (as I think the evidence in CF endings points to Hubert tracing the attack on Arianrhod much like he does the one on Merceus in SS/VW). It's also really hard to speak of them coming close to achieving their goal when we don't even know how they planned to conduct their genocide. We have events like Holst getting away from Nemesis's army. Fodlan may have been weakened and destabilized in a war that would still have happened without Agarthan influence because of Adrestian revanchism and opportunism in the face of Faerghus collapsing under its own weight, and the Agarthans still barely had a credible path to victory in Fodlan, let alone the world. So I stand by my "blithering idiots" remark. The mention of Azure Gleam had to do with the role the Agarthans practically play in the story and is relevant mostly as a direct counter to the final idea of the video. Not only are the Agarthans not necessary for this story, but they do not enhance it. There is tragedy in the lack of communication preventing Claude from quickly finding somebody compatible to ally with, or in general with everyone wanting "the best" while going to war with each other. But the Agarthans don't enhance it, they sabotage it by leaching culpability from the human characters.

[@illusive-mike]

Also, since it may look like I'm avoiding the topic of a certain Boar, I'm going to break down another topic where it almost looks like the Agarthans help, except they end up just muddying it instead: cycles of revenge. This is one of the other major themes of Three Houses, and is a much better fit for the Agarthan-Nabatean conflict than anything related to morality systems. Whatever original slight Sothis committed against the Agarthans is lost to history, and all the following conflicts may be seen as spiralling out of it. Eventually, Agarthan remnants back Nemesis, and that's where the problems start. Nemesis may have had his own grievance against Nabateans, but we can't know that since the only narrator on it is extremely unreliable, calling the slayer of her Goddess a common brigand even as she has to let him be remembered as the King of Liberation because that's the name the people of his country gave him and they loved him too much to let it go (source: developer interview). And it's fine that we don't know that either, the whole point is that the origins of these conflicts are lost to time and rendered meaningless, except the Agarthans are there and they're the only touchpoint we have with Nemesis, so that's a point already tainted by them. Fast-forward to present day and Edelgard attacks Rhea over her tacit support of the feudalism she inherited from Nemesis while misguidedly extolling the virtues of human craftsmanship of the Relics. Again, a fine evolution of the cycle on its own, but yet again the Agarthan finger is on the scales. And while in a proper cycle of revenge each step tragically makes sense coming after the last and each new player avenges the slights against themselves, the Agarthans just want the "beasts" gone with no immediate reason, no channel to the initial grievance that set it all off. They've outstayed their welcome in the cycle and could only have worked if diminished to scattered survivors in advisory roles. As an active presence, they negate the evolution of the cycle by not letting it fully pass on from its origins while also not exposing said origins anyway. To bring it back to the Boar that inspired me to make this comment, this is where his main personal flaw kicks in: his fixation on revenge. It notably makes little difference in the overall flow of events in AM, as there were many in the Kingdom/Church force who advocated for a push to Enbarr to resolve the war swiftly anyway. Dimitri was not even the aggressor in his conflict with Edelgard, and the beginning of Three Hopes shows him standing in war against her even without a direct connection between her and Duscur. Yet as far as Dimitri's revenge-driven recklessness, it doesn't come from a lack of perspective on Edelgard's merits, it comes from just that - revenge.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Cool so you'll just continue to be rude and patronizing, this'll be my last response as we're clearly approaching this from vastly different frameworks and you're not even entertaining my view on the subject. 1. Nietzsche comment- Sure you can say that its overly pretentious, that's not my intention (I just really like nietzsche) but if that's how you see it fair enough. Again you're wrong about the agarthans there is an account of their society pre-goddess in an agarthan written book within the abyss library. It describes them as being a society of the strong that abused other humans because they could, until the goddess came down and advocated for them. This is literally the perfect implementation of master/slave morality complete with religious undertones. The difference is that the goddess established her reign through power and the agarthans soon inverted in this power hierarchy as slaves because of their fixation on overthrowing the current dominance structure to gain the power that they had previously lost. Nietzshe's morality inversion system doesn't have slaves chiefly wanting the moral system gone, but instead wanting to use the moral system as a tool to invert the power structure. The take doesn't fit perfectly of course, but I like nietzsche and wanted to mention some similarities. 2. The lords- If you read my comment correctly the first time you would see that the subject of my sentence about Edelgard was her "oversights implanted in her by the agarthans" which then caused her to "see violent uprising [as the only solution]". I never said violence was a character flaw, its a reasonable political view that places her in direct contention with everyone else in fodlan, but is downstream of her limited understanding. There never could have been a perfect ending for these characters, but my point was to say its tragic how all of them wanted similar ends achieved, yet their limited understanding of their situations and their different views in how to politically achieve these goals made it impossible. Also, Rhea doesn't want to revive the goddess for the people, but her own neurotic desire for her mother from her trauma. Dimitri only wants the system to remain insofar as it provides stability and security for people, but still wants to reform it in similar ways to edelgard. 3. Agarthans- Again in the video I didn't claim to defend the writing or their execution in certain routes like azure moon or crimson flower (crimson flower is pretty half baked so there are a lot of issues similar to those with the agarthans). Their pride was played a little excessively in the writing I agree, but as a fatal flaw it makes sense for their group. 4. Culpability - the human characters still have agency having agarthans facilitate the things they do doesn't take away their choices. The western lords still wanted to kill the king and his family, Thales being their doesn't make them unwitting all of the sudden. They enhance it by facilitating the real solipsistic and greedy decisions of the characters that aren't so black and white. 5. Follow up comment- again we have information on the agarthans problem with the goddess, you really shouldn't speak so absolutely on things you yourself have incomplete knowledge of. This is why your approach is lame and I'm not going to engage after this. You flippantly tear at the assumption I make in my video while failing to account for your own. We just approach the game from very different frameworks, you're welcome to keep posting comments tearing away at what you see as ignorance but I have no interest in engaging with self righteousness.

[@illusive-mike]

​@@ordinaryunits4341 Okay, final round it is: 1. That's a very definitive reading of a vague uncorroborated text that is placed among others of dubious provenance with few contextual clues. A human underclass would be a weird thing to describe as "all beasts of the land, sky and sea", but it is possible. It's equally possible for it to be a fake, a revisionist text from latter-day Agarthans or a reference to the original Agarthans treating their environment similarly to how modern humans do (not that we see any hint of fossil fuels among the Agarthan technology...). It is a curiosity, but not a 100% credible source. Also, there's a misreading of my Neitzsche statement there since at no point do I claim that Slave morality aims to dissolve the Master morality, but that's irrelevant anyway since the better point (expressed in the second comment that you skimmed over) is that Neitzsche isn't applicable anyway and the cycle of revenge is a theme that is much more relevant to that specific conflict. 2. Edelgard's ignorance is exactly why I mention in the original comment that she never got the chance to reject Rhea's proper stance: because it didn't matter in the end, as Edelgard's goal was still the destruction of feudalism and Rhea's Church still supported it to its utmost. A flaw that doesn't produce a negative result is not a proper flaw, so to say that Edelgard's limited view is in fact a flaw you have to argue that a) she misidentifies her enemy (which she doesn't) and/or b) her decision to take immediate action is wrong, a political statement. As for Dimitri wanting the same outcome as Edelgard and the tragedy being their political differences (arising from their perspectives), then sure. It is a tragedy. Not one that exists as a failure within the theme of perspective though, unless you want to imply that a more perfect knowledge would let everyone suddenly reconcile their ethics and come together in a single transcendent policy. Not being a failure, it thus doesn't require a Dark Lord to compare to. And all of this is assuming the lords face no other limitations making their policy decisions and ignoring how "make people's lives better" is not a goal and Dimitri has nothing against hereditary power in principle. 3. The execution is very important. If they are meant to enrich the themes but only consistently harm them in execution, then they're not good for the work. Pride is a fitting flaw for their concept, but taken to the extreme of being their only character trait it leads to them being utterly incompetent unless the plot suddenly demands otherwise. Their incompetence in turn makes them inconsequential and fit to remove, further tarnishing their "contributions". 4. Having a "grand manipulator" at work obfuscates endemic corruption from viewers. The western lords may make the call, but it's still all "an Agarthan plot" in the end. The characters whom they "facilitate" don't need it, and they can be removed with minimal impact on the flow of events. They do not enrich the story, they leech off of it. 5. Back to 1, that info is not at all conclusive. I would agree that we have different ideas of what is good for a story. It is my opinion that none of the themes of Three Houses benefit from a Dark Lord archetype villain, and that the Agarthans in particular are a terrible implementation thereof anyway. Edit: and to bring together the point about agency, culpability and prejudice, the ways in which the Agarthans' interactions with Edelgard in the last response were framed illustrates my point. "She was misled by them" into thinking revolution was the only option, and they "enable the evil of the human characters". This simultaneously poisons the well by framing Edelgard's war declaration in a purely negative light (since the absolute evil guided and supported it) and creates "she was being controlled by Agarthans" speculation both in-game and in the fandom (a laughable assertion outside AG where it's suddenly literally true for no properly established reason). Thus a question of "was the war even needed?", which in the game is given no solid answer with plentiful evidence for both possibilities is instead often answered in truly bad readings with a reductive "no, and if only the characters' perspectives didn't diverge it could've been avoided". And maybe that's not the stated position here, but it's perilously close to it, especially when embracing that a figure of pure evil that causes conflict because it's so evil somehow enriches this situation. Edit 2: I brought up fossil fuels in jest, but the same Shadow Library does have a book on various Church efforts to suppress technology. It is either fake or outdated given that some of the techs inside are blatantly used by characters in-game, but it does mention among other things a Church prohibition on oil development in Faerghus...

[@stefanpereira9367]

Exactly all of this could have been avoided if these mofos just talked to each other -.- anyway gold team rules

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Couldn't agree more, except that blue team takes the dub