Why the Arrow Line Failed - And How to Fix it

[@Nouvellecosse]

They should rename it to the "Aero Line" since it's transporting air.

[@everything.trains]

Top comment! Lol! 😂

[@obkb1]

It would have been better to extend the Metrolink trains to Redlands than to use DMUs.

[@T128Productions]

Agreed. Still better than no trains whatsoever.

[@everything.trains]

I totally agree with you. Transit is supposed to make lives easier, right?

[@davidng2336]

They were supposed to use actual trains but changed to DMU because of complaints.

[@erik_griswold]

This was supposed to be an Omnitrans operation. @everythingtrains has not familiarized themselves with the history of this line’s creation.

[@Southern_California_Railfanner]

Extend and Double track as much as possible

[@anitrain]

I completely agree that it would have been a lot better to simply extend existing service to Redlands. The DMU section is too small for decent ridership on it's own and forcing a transfer is inconvenient. That said, the FLIRT DMUs are very nice trains and I would love to see them deployed where they make sense in short shuttle services such as San Bernardino to Riverside or LA Union Station to Burbank Airport.

[@everything.trains]

Exactly, the DMUS are very nice still and can have great use elsewhere.

[@labiker]

Extend the Metrolink trains to Redlands. Then build tracks to Ontario Airport, and run the Arrow trains between Redlands and the airport.

[@everything.trains]

Good point!

[@russellmcdonaldjr2123]

They should build tracks all the way to Oceanside, California which would be another option to get toward San Diego.

[@chrisyin1990]

Why did they not align the schedule to Metrolink instead of doing 40 min transfers? By the way this reminds me of what BART did with e-BART in the Antioch extension.

[@KpopLover-ze8pd]

They are timed to be 10 to 18 minutes, I think the Metrolink trip planner might not be showing the correct transfer train because there is a 6:16 train that leaves SB that is timed for the Arrow that arrives at 6:06.

[@stevens1041]

Great comparison. E-BART was a massive fail.

[@robserrano8971]

I got family in Brentwood in NorCal. BART needs to extend to Brentwood

[@everything.trains]

Most transfers are 10 minutes however a good amount are 40 minutes.

[@erik_griswold]

@@stevens1041eBart gets ridership

[@captainminecraft631]

A higher frequency of trains, and more convenient transfers between the Orange County and San Bernardino lines would make it more competitive against the Route 8 bus operated by Omnitrans which runs about the same route as the Arrow Line.

[@everything.trains]

Definitely. Better bus transfers are needed as well.

[@robserrano8971]

Arrow Line needs to be extended west to Ontario Airport with light rail. Go south on E Street to National Orange Show/Inland Center Station, over 215 fwy Grant /Mt.Vernon SB Valley College Station, Mt. Vernon/Colton Colton Park Station, Valley Bl /Rancho Ave, Valley Bl/Pepper Ave Arrowhead Regional Medical Center Station, Valley Bl/Cedar Ave Bloomington Station, Sierra Ave Fontana Kaiser Station, Valley Bl/ Cherry Ave South Fontana Station, Ontario Mills Station, Toyota Arena Station along Concourse St, and finally Ontario Airport.

[@johndonovan5752]

Thank you for posting this. I had not even heard of the Arrow Line, although I live in southern California. I wonder if the news media has picked up this story.

[@everything.trains]

You’re most welcome, more exciting content coming!

[@DismayingObservation]

Excellent video! I sometimes ride for fun to LA with a friend, but sometimes the transfers to San Bernardino are, shall we say, inconvenient. In fact, we’ve actually discussed how this line would benefit being extended to Mentone on the old Kite Line, or whatever is left of it. For now, we sometimes take the Arrow, but more often, we just meet up in San Bernardino. The Arrow is a fantastic idea and puts an abandoned ROW back to work, not to mention gentrifying the area. The depot has never looked better and I’m looking forward to seeing the interior when it’s finished.

[@everything.trains]

Right! Isn’t the depot beautiful?

[@biazorast]

3:32 Well there is noise becasue the are using the Stadler Flirt DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit). And horns are loud either way. Switching to EMU would have a significant change in noise though. This video is very informative. I never even knew about this line. If they were to have gotten EMU's instead, the noise problem could have been solved. But I guess the main problem is just the inconvenience of the whole thing. Very nice video. And I did here about the FLIRT H2 and thought it was a pretty cool concept. But if they do go through with this, it's going to a service that is not extremely know of, and very little people ride this service. But that Is all in the futures hands. I'm gonna stop typing now.

[@everything.trains]

Thanks for commenting! Yeah not many people know about this line because it’s not popular haha.

[@StopRequested]

I feel that your noise comparison wasn't quite accurate - you showed a brief clip of one of the metrolink cab cars compared to the arrow, but not the metrolink engine, which is arguably louder. Aside from that, good video.

[@everything.trains]

Thank you for watching!

[@genoobtlp4424]

Probably best to have extended the long trains, but with the short trains guaranteeing their connection, you could probably make up for that with better acceleration and shorter dwell times. But that would mean guaranteeing regular connections (it seems they’re arriving at xx:12, so have arrow depart at xx:15/20 and the other way the big trains depart at xx:45, so come in at xx:35/40)

[@californiaporg]

A proposal from nandert explains how the arrow could be extended further west, extending this line to Pomona downtown, via the Ontario Airport and before it turns off for the airport, a connection at Rancho Cucamonga for Brightline West. On a side note, land use around every Arrow station is currently horrible except for a few businesses at Redlands downtown. Improving land use could increase ridership hopefully

[@russellmcdonaldjr2123]

There is still hope and I think they should've extended the San Bernardino and Inland Empire-Orange County Lines through the area and the big trouble is that some of stations don't have bus connections and the connections from the Arrow Rail Line to the two lines mentioned are impossible.

[@tylerroberts1276]

In my opinion, I always found it strange that Metrolink ran a shorter train service from one suburb to another, on a ROW with express service that already connects to the big city. Despite this, the use of DMU's shouldn't be abandoned, as some short-turn trains on the Metrolink system would be better suited for DMU's than the larger double deck commuter trains. Also potential branch lines off of the main network can be well served by DMU's with less concerns for capacity, and safety being less of an issue, as running amongst larger trains will likely be negated. While arrow may have been a failure in this format, a more concise use of these trains across the system would be beneficial for travel in Southern California

[@certainlycornenel74]

the arrow line should have another track one for northbound the other one for southbound

[@everything.trains]

They have a small double track section however they do have future plans to double track to Redlands - Esri Station.

[@_thebusphotograher_cali]

it should have just been an extension to Redlands instead for the San Bernadino Line Instead

[@Southern_California_Railfanner]

Heard from an employee that some higher-ups won't even get close to the nitrogen set bc they think its like a moving bomb lol

[@eannamcnamara9338]

The fact that arrow doesn't have a timed transfer to cut the transfer time to just 5 minutes for example baffles me.

[@Point_Capistrano]

Interesting part is, Arrow wasn't Metrolink's idea. It was a separate operation until the original agency handed it over to Metrolink. This whole thing shouldn't have been started to begin with imo with the exception of running SB/IEOC line trains to Redlands directly

[@Geotpf]

Of course it would have made more sense to just extend the San Bernardino Metrolink Line. That is obvious. However, NIMBYs in Redlands vetoed any regular Metrolink service on this corridor (I'm amazed they are allowed the one train a day), complaining about noise. So it was this or nothing. This also means that you can't easily convert this to standard Metrolink service. It's basically politically impossible. It was also paid for a specific Federal grant that only could be used on projects under $100 million dollars. The estimate of ARROW's cost used for that grant was $99.1 million, so they got their money's worth. The ESRI station was paid for by the ESRI corporation, whose office is located next to it.

[@dutchvanderlinde154]

Woah wait your that guy from IG cool video!

[@everything.trains]

Yes I am! Thanks for the support! More exciting content on the way!

[@leanderhartl9504]

Have you ever thought about higher frequency (15 min) and integrated transfers to Metrolink trains and feeder bus lines? In such a case, Arrow's small trains would be more suitable than Metrolink's 8 double-decker cars + 2 100 tonne locomotive trains. High frequency and convenient transfers are often more attractive than travel speed and direct connections at the expense of the above points. People don't want to wait at a station because they know they could have been driving. You just have to get them moving as quickly as possible (high frequency). It's a kind of psychological trick that people are satisfied as long as there is progress, which makes them more likely to choose the option in which they are moving constantly, even if it would take longer than the other option in which they would have to wait a long time beforehand. Combined with the fact that San Bernardino is a metropolitan area in its own right and probably not all potential passengers would want to travel 1.5 hours to Los Angeles in the morning and back again in the evening, a simple extension of the San Bernardino line with the same hourly frequency that Arrow already has would cause relatively little passenger growth and the 3 trains that go there in the morning and back in the evening are probably enough. More important would be a higher frequency so that you don't have to wait long for a train and quick transfer options to other trains AND buses.

[@everything.trains]

Great point!

[@Thesecret101-te1lm]

Agree with frequency. Can't remember the details but IIRC the psychological factor is something like 2x time waiting at a station/stop, and 1.5x time while in vehicle that isn't moving, as compared to being in a vehicle that is actually moving. The full San Bernadio line all the way to LA Union Station is fully owned by the public sector so no freight company could stop electrification, and at least the majority of the line which isn't in a highway median have enough space to be double tracked. My opinion is that they should double track as much as they can, and maybe squeeze in more passing loops (looks like it might be possible to have one to the east of Cal State LA, and maybe where Del Mar Av connects to the Fast Trak Expressway (but there might be bridge pillars in the way to make it long enough). Also electrify as much as possible. If they do those improvements, the line could have at least a train every 15 minutes on the single track section west of El Monte, and any amount of trains on the rest of the line. A good initial train set for that line would be a bunch of relatively short EMUs, where say four units would be used for trains every 15 minutes all the way to/from Union Station, and single units filling in to have a train every 5 minutes east of El Monte, or maybe every 7½ minutes. Although those trains that would terminate at El Monte would have way lower ridership than those that goes all the way to Union Station, they would make it blatantly clear to the average public that it would be possible to have metro style frequencies on the Metrolink system, which would most likely create public opinion for double tracking to Union Station, even if that means doing unpopular things with the highway. (As a side track re single track: If someone deemed it adequate to have a single track regional rail line, then arguably the toll express highway don't need to operate in both directions at the same time. By only allowing traffic eastwards in the afternoon and westwards in the morning, half of the toll road could be closed and reused as right-of-way for the rail line). Also, if they electrify and generally improve the line, a track connection to Brightline West could allow for Metrolink to have some revenue from track capacity usage by Brightline West. If double tracking includes crossovers at the right places, and/or even go for triple/quad tracking at certain sections, it would be possible to have frequent trains and also have express and all stop services. An express service skipping most minor stations, especially closer to LA Union Station, could most likely beat driving even outside rush hours.

[@PlasticBubbleCosplay]

Run frequent service aligned with the bus system, and an island platform for easier transfers to Metrolink.

[@everything.trains]

Yes and not 40 minute transfers right? Lol.

[@robserrano8971]

Arrow Line needs to be extended East. Go along Orange Bloosom Trail Lincoln St Station, Opal Ave Station, then south on Opal Ave. There's great opportunities for affordable eco-friendly housing along Opal Ave to 5th Ave. Go east along 5th Ave, Sand Canyon Rd/Yucaipa Bl Crafton Hills College Station, Yucaipa Bl/Glen Oaks Glen Oaks Station, Yucaipa Bl/6 th St Yucaipa Civic Center, Yucaipa Bl/California St Yucaipa Performing Arts Center YPAC Station. Later, it can be extended to Coachella Valley in phases.

[@everything.trains]

Awesome point. There is so much potential beyond. At the Redlands University station, they blocked it off with a parking lot which makes no sense at all.

[@robserrano8971]

@everything.trains it's time to extend that line eastward

[@longebane]

you aren't going Redlands LA in 1.5 hrs during rush hour. maybe closer to 2.5hrs, which is how long the train takes, but without the stress of bumper to bumper traffic. but i totally agree with a direct route. no one's using the train to go to San Bernardino. why would they

[@everything.trains]

Thanks for your input.

[@erik_griswold]

Run the DMU/ZEMU trainsets to Pomona-North and connect with the Foothill LRT (A-line).

[@August_Ice]

Metrolink to Redlands, Yucaipa, Calimesa would be great.

[@djpetesake]

I thought it was failing because they expect people to hang their bikes from the ceiling

[@KarlDahlquist]

The County's toy train set! It's fun building routes with other people's money.

[@T128Productions]

No surprise there.

[@everything.trains]

Haha!

[@thestone30080]

I think it would have been better as an extension of the San Bernardino Line to Redlands just as a one seat ride, not some separate line it just don’t make sense.

[@everything.trains]

Right?!

[@PDXLibertarian]

This is almost as bad as Portland's WES train.

[@everything.trains]

Maybe I’ll have to make a video on that lol!

[@JustanothaLAresident]

Removing a whole line and dumping trains hell nah. Just make good station hubs

[@EpicThe112]

Easy solution have Metrolink order diesel multiple units of the Flirt design configure them like the United Kingdom version and use them on the extended Redlands the Los Angeles Union Station San Bernardino and then turn them around as an Antelope Valley Line train to Lancaster in Kern County

[@everything.trains]

That’s another solution that will save time.

[@sharirogers6826]

@everything.trains Kern County Line is Ave, A in north Lancaster.

[@CrazyDash9]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like the only reason the arrow is its own line was so they could simply trial those hydrogen trains, and I’m all against it if it comes at the cost of using trains that are so far proven in other parts of the world to be less reliable and slower, in addition to providing less convenient service for those who need to go beyond San Bernardino.

[@robertoehlmann4401]

Hi, thank you for the cool video and showcasing the issues with the Arrow. I am however confused why "just" extending Metrolink is seen as the "easier" option in the video & comments. If it would have been simpler & cheaper they would have probably done it? I assume that it was much cheaper to build it like this. Shorter platforms, lower requirements for the soil under the tracks (due to the lower weight of the rolling stock) and much cheaper rolling stock - both to buy and to operate. And yes, even if the extended the regular Metrolink service, they would have needed new trains. But instead of short, lightweight, off-the-shelve Stadler trains, they would have needed multi-coach, loco hauled, double decker trains with toilets onboard? And they might still be running with just a few people on board, so much worse on the long-term operational side as well. I would rather say the Arrow was built on the cheap. The biggest opportunity for improvement would be synchronized schedules. I don't get, why they aren't doing it. If the Arrow is the only service on the new line, it can run at any time. Making it synchronized with the Metrolink services at San Bernardino (i.e. arriving shortly before the LA bound train, leaving shortly after the train from LA Union), thus having only a few minutes of time lost in the interchange would make it much more attractive. It could even be a cross-plattform interchange. With this modifications, the cost-saving of building an "almost light rail" line instead of heavy rail metrolink could be combined with most of the advantages of direct trough running service, making it attractive for riders as well as economical to operate.

[@Thesecret101-te1lm]

CrazyDash9 made a great comment which I agree with. Basically it feels like they made it a separate service so they get to "play with trains", in this case hydrogen trains.

[@everything.trains]

The original plan was for the Metrolink to actually just be extended to Redlands, however residents were concerned about the noise and pushed for the “quieter” Arrow train.

[@Thesecret101-te1lm]

@everything.trains If only Metrolink were electric.... Edit. But also: They could had ordered multiple units that can be coupled with the existing loco hauled trains, and couple/uncouple them where the interchange currently is. I know that such trains are rare, but it's not unheard of.

[@troy.peters]

I was interested in watching your video, but you flash through the still pictures so fast one can't watch it without pausing every 5 seconds to look at the pictures, than having to go back to listen to what you are saying. Please do better.

[@everything.trains]

Thank you for your input. I will be sure to slow it down. 👍