Why the Atlatl became Forgotten

[@JMac1778]

Happy to see you making atlatl content! Absolutly under appreciated

[@erikjacks9370]

To add on to your point about the atlatls being more fragile/flexible than the typical javelin and thus being less effective towards shields, it would also make sense that the atlatl would be less advantageous once advanced forms of metalworking brought about stronger armors and the need for heavier/more durable missiles to penetrate them. Which could have been a contributing factor in its longer lasting history in the new world where metalworking was not as developed as it was in the old world.

[@busurbusur2381]

Javelins didn’t penetrate advanced armor either

[@busurbusur2381]

The shield is the most likely target

[@theghosthero6173]

I think it needs to be said that in the Old world the atlatl seem to be phased out before antiquity by other range weapons so I doubt armor was the reason.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Inca Garcilaso de la Vega wrote that a dart from an atlatl could pass entirely through a person in mail armor & that the atlatl was the weapon the Spanish feared the most in Peru. (De la Vega grew up in Peru.) Bernal Díaz del Castillo claimed atlatl darts could pierce any armor, but may have been referring to the cotton armor commonly used in Mesoamerica, which he & other Spanish infantry adopted. In any case, both of these sources say that atlatl darts hit hard.

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

I mean to be fair Arrows are even flimsier and bows made it into the late middle ages… I feel like the main reason people didn‘t use it was that it just didn‘t fit into the roster. Like he said you had javelins and arrows but the atlatl spears just fall into the crack between. I feel like if they would have tried to make them work it would have. Might have been a bit niche, but sometimes it‘s a good idea to shake up the meta a bit, so to say. A lot of things just fell out of use because they were simply forgotten, or just not trending. Look at pikes for example. It took them over 1000 years or so to make a comeback with pike squares after the roman manipel sort of beat the greek phalanx. All it needed was a bit of tinkering with formations and different distribution of manpower. Btw look up cestrophendon. They were greek dart slinging devices sort of like a hybrid between atlatl and a sling. They tried to bring it back, (sorta) but it never really caught on.

[@jkre]

Atlatl hits harder than hunting weight bows. You need a warbow to exceed the power of atlatl with bow and arrow

[@leoscheibelhut940]

Love the atlatl content! In the Americas, atlatl use was so successful for hunting that the ancient Americans hunted out all the megafauna, mammoths, rhinos, camels, etc.

[@bracoop2]

Actually that’s not the case. The megafauna in North America that went extinct were not hunted to extinction, they most likely died out because of environmental factors like the comet impacts of the younger dryas. There simply is no proof that such a small amount of humans could have ever killed tens of millions of mammoths not to mention the other three elephant like species in North America, not to mention the hundreds of millions of animals of species they didn’t even hunt went extinct as well.

[@jamieduke5659]

Impossible, 100 million estimated mammoths in the americas alone not including the other animals at one time. 10 million estimated people, even with half male half female which wasn't the case and take in the elderly or children not suitable for hunting and you get much smaller fraction of able bodied hunters in the americas so probably a couple million. So EACH hunter before his 20 or so years of being an active hunter was over had to kill more that ten mammoths himself to have eradicated them all. Then think about all the other animals and it's ridiculous to assume that they were over hunted.

[@jeremiahacuna4870]

It's awesome to see more videos about the atlatl. I've been throwing for about a month now

[@zoranpavlovic9540]

Love this video. From my experience atlatl looks dangerous weapon yet it is fun to shoot it. I used force like that I am throwing classical spear first tries and got tenis elbow but then learned how to throw properly. I enjoyed and smiled when you started shooting full of joy like some kid getting new toy 😊 ppl who never tried atlatl cannot imagine how much fun it is but also speed and snaky oscilations of darts in the air. Greetings and keep on doing nice content 👍

[@micahmann6967]

Great video idea! Going to enjoy it lol. Going to be making some atlatl points soon and hope to try them out

[@mrln247]

Definitely more of a hunting tool rather than something suited for warfare. Cool your having fun with them.

[@Dnahwjjwjejnenex]

The aztecs and mayans and Iroquois used it

[@mrln247]

@@Dnahwjjwjejnenex I can see that many will have used what they had, however I can also see Jack's point's on the comparative utility of them Vs spears of Javelins when in a professional soldier context like Roman's etc.

[@theghosthero6173]

​@@mrln247it was the favorite range weapon of many elite mesoamerican warriors like the aztecs. It served as short range weapon before you engaged with your club or spear. Mind you they knew about sling and bows, lower class people used those. They were a had professional armies sooo

[@HistoricalWeapons]

so why aztec not use javelin instead?

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@HistoricalWeapons If that 1997 test is accurate, a skilled atlatl user can deliver very impressive velocity & power. Even if that study was false or mistaken, darts tend to be lighter than javelins & have higher velocity. But a couple Spanish-language accounts do support the idea that atlatl darts hit very hard. It's possible high-level atlatl use requires a lot of skill.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

It's quite possible the atlatl fell out of popularity in Europe because folks gravitated to throwing straps instead. It's the same basic idea of increasing leverage. This doesn't mean javelins used with or without a throwing strap are necessarily better. Sometimes different regions end up with different popular weapons. Learning how to use a certain weapon well takes time. The skills for using an atlatl & a javelin with throwing strap probably aren't the same. If you already know to do it one way, there's not much incentive to switch to another method.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Agreed

[@tylerrobbins8311]

That is a good point, maybe it had to do with javelin and throwing spears being heavier than darts? A strap with throwing spears might have worked better against thicker hides as well as armor?

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

I already posted my take under some other comment but I‘ll just repost here: I feel like the main reason people didn‘t use it was zhat it just didn‘t fit into the roster. Like he said you had javelins and arrows but the atlatl spears just fall into the crack between. I feel like if they would have tried to make them work it would have, there was just no real reason to innovate. Might have been a bit niche, but sometimes it‘s a good idea to shake up the meta a bit, so to say. A lot of things just fell out of use because they were simply forgotten, or just not trending. Look at pikes for example. It took them like 1000 years or so to make a comeback with pike squares after the roman manipel sort of beat the greek phalanx. All it needed was a bit of tinkering with formations and different distribution of manpower. Btw look up klestophones. They were greek dart slinging devices sort of like a hybrid between atlatl and a sling. They tried to bring it back, (sorta) but it never really caught on.

[@troydodson9641]

I'm no expert, so this is just a theory. Maybe the device is more useful for hunting because of the nature of an animal. Multiple people focusing on a single large animal could hit it with atlatls. But with spears, animal is hit, starts to run, and it quickly gets out of range. Does this particular group have bows? Are they well made? How many? Stefan Milo, I believe, has a video mentioning Paleolithic people switching to bone spear heads for a short while before going back to flint. Could the atlatl be a weapon born of temporary necessity? That aside, praise to you, King of Pre-Modern Missile Weapons

[@joshsmith2071]

I saw or read something the way they were used is about 30 men would throw them into a herd of animals and somebody would hit something. I made one and used it they are fun but not accurate.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

I'm curious about the kinetic energy of atlatl darts, as that's a controversial topic. The 1997 article "Spearthrower Performance: Ethnographic and Experimental Research" by W. Karl Hutchings & Lorenz W. Bruchert gives extremely high velocity figures: up to 64 m/s (210 fps) with a 273.4g dart & up to 771 J with a 545.3g dart at 53.2 m/s. Those peak velocities are hard to believe. The averages, however, seem more plausible, with the 545.3g dart at 36 m/s & 353 J. Hutchings, who made the throws, is supposedly an expert. The test also involved "two international competition-level javelin-throwers" with the same setup, but Hutchings averaged 129-171% higher velocities because of greater skill with the atlatl specifically. The article says wrist rotation is key to powerful throws. By contrast, many other tests of atlatls give much lower velocity & energy figures. One test of 108 total newbies with both 800g javelins & 200g atlatl darts got maximum KE of 104 J with the javelins (standing throw, only three steps allowed) & 58 J with the atlatl. As far as historical sources go, Bernal Diaz claimed Aztec darts could pierce any armor, and Garcilaso de la Vega recorded that darts could completely pass through a man wearing a coat of mail, & that the atlatl was the weapon the Spanish most feared in Peru. (De la Vega's mother was an elite Inca woman. He grew up in Peru. Another source indicates that the Spanish feared the sling a great deal.)

[@MarcRitzMD]

That's very interesting to read about. Scientifically, you'd need corroboration and reproducibility. Even if it isn't published in scientific journals, even videos on KZbin would help to support if those numbers could be backed up by hobbyists today. Published study by Tobias Capwell has tested the impact energy of a couched lance, and it maxed out at 250J. Are we seriously considering that the atlatl in the 1997 study had three times more energy than a couched lance on a charge?

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@MarcRitzMDOlympic javelins thrown with a run up get up 360 J or so, which is also more than 250 J. & Capwell has said a lance rest allows one to deliver 300-400 J. I suspect the user's strength & skill count as well, & that current folks wielding the couched lance in a rest probably aren't at the level of Olympic athletes. I definitely don't believe the 771 J figure & suspect the setup used to measure velocity in the Hutchings test was wonky. However, if the study is otherwise true, Hutchings still threw darts way faster than high-level javelin throwers in the modern style. There may be something to the atlatl requiring specific skill involving wrist rotation.

[@MarcRitzMD]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 the study I was referring to specifically tested the lance rests and with them 250J were the highest value attained. He speculated that up to 300J could be possible. Of course, we are measuring somewhat different things. Capwell measured the energy that was imparted to a target and a lot of would never be transferred to the target, especially when the lance breaks (as it often did during the study). An atlatl dart or javelin would likely impart a much greater fraction of its energy to the target because it will come to a stop in the target without breaking. It seems to me that it's pretty clear that an atlatl is superior to a thrown javelin with regard to its kinetic energy, but we really care about its destructive potential in warfare and none of the numbers let us truly compare it with other ballistic weapons to any sensible degree. We have extensive data on warbows now, with kinetic energies ranging from what...120-150J? Do we actually consider an atlatl to be as destructive as a warbow? Are they twice or four times as effective as the kinetic energy figures suggest? I can't make heads or tails of that

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

@@MarcRitzMD Capwell said 300-400 J in an interview. Again, I suspect it depends on the user's strength & skill, as with most any athletic activity. In a recent test with total newbies with both modern 800g javelins & atlatls with 200g darts, the javelin throws, which only allowed a few step, delivered more kinetic energy. At the top end, it was 104 J vs 58 J. So it's not clear that an atlatl dart is superior in terms of kinetic energy. It depends on which tests you look at & believe. We need more & better studies to really know. The same goes for lances & lance rests. If we believe those two period accounts, it's not unreasonable that a high-level atlatl user could deliver somewhat more kinetic energy than high-level archer with a yew warbow. Manchu-style composite bows probably do a lot more than 150 J with high draw weights, if that one test is accurate. A 74.55kg (164lb) Manchu bow might theoretically achieve 270 J, though that would require a 159.4g arrow. It might even be higher, as the bow that supposedly delivered 135 J was only drawn to 32 inches (81.28 cm). Again, we need more tests.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427but you can make a javelin size atlatl too

[@raphlvlogs271]

they can actually make a come back in the near future as a device for launching high speed drones or explosives

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Maybe! I think slinging might be better actually or rock throwing

[@Ratt611]

Imagine having to hit some angry, charging mega fauna about to murder you and the bros. Amazing we made it this far and get to play with our plastic phones. 😆

[@Max-ek4dn]

Tbh i feel like my fingers would be shaking to much with a bow, with this i a least see a chance😂

[@paxluporum4447]

That's why you bring your bros with you and hurl 20 at the same time.

[@CinimodNorton]

No...Well. Right on bro I hear you fine and well.

[@apodis4900]

We made some atlatl’s when my friend was doing his history PhD, and I can vouch for how difficult they are to master. We were getting decent results after a few weeks but we still weren’t proficient. Great video, new subscriber.❤

[@michaelmartin1824]

As you get better I’d love to see any tips or tricks you’ve learned. I have one too and my biggest struggle right now is still close in accuracy. I can throw it pretty far without much trouble but actually hitting something that’s even kinda close is a big struggle.

[@hamasmillitant1]

practice makes perfect ;)

[@josephbishopbackwoodssurvi3918]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGXQmJ-lbc2rkNEsi=Tq3pezI5A8Z4tDRZ

[@josephbishopbackwoodssurvi3918]

Chances are your are trying to throw it to hard it’s about finesse the dart weight enough that if it hits it’s going to bury in deep and you only need 6 inchs to take large game

[@grahamtotte7133]

The atlatl is a very specialized weapon designed for one purpose. Killing Ice age mega-mammals. It is not really a good weapon for warfare. This is because you can only carry a few darts with you. So if you are fighting another group armed with bows and arrows they will be able to continue shooting at you long after you have run out of ammunition. If you do score a hit it will be an almost guaranteed kill but you are better off with a bow and a quiver full of arrows.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

By that logic, javelins are even worse weapons for warfare, as they tend to be longer & heavier than atlatl arts. Yet we know tons of ancient militaries used javelins. The Irish kept using the forms of javelins & darts through the 16th century. Javelins saw some use in 16th-century China, mainly by targetiers. Etc.

[@FakeGuthix01]

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Javelins are much easier to make (you can literally have your soldiers carving their own javelins while camped (with the tips being recycled from the battlefield)) and more versatile (can be used as a melee weapon in a pinch), so it's easy to justify keeping them in your doctrine as a one-off ranged attack for your melee troops. But by the time bow and arrow technology got advanced enough, any resources spent on making atlatls would have been better spent on just making more arrows instead.

[@CampfireKodiak]

Not 100% true. Alaskan Natives used the "Nuqaq" as the Alutiiq called them for hunting marine mammals for thousands of years after the Ice Age.

[@thefeatheredfrontiersman8135]

Special shout-out to ryan gill with his channel hunt primative! If you are into atl-atl he has a number of hunts you really need to see. I have an atl-atl. Rocky mountain juniper and obsidian tipped dogwood darts. My personal suggestion from watching you is ; understand that darts have a spine like an arrow. Your throwing them far too hard for their spine. Balance good sir.

[@jodycarter7308]

Power is nothing without control

[@ianbruce6515]

As I understand it, the atlatl, in North America anyway, was associated with the megafauna period and most suited to larger less skittish game. Not suitable for deer. In fact a lot of North American deer hunting was done from ground blinds with relatively low poundage bows at very close range. Often short draw weapons were used that were more unobtrusive during the draw and--in many places, used horizontally. So--in fact--with lower penetration than an atlatl. The intent was to hit a vital area and bring the animal down promptly. The meat is better if not awash in stress hormones. Even the buffalo hunting bows used on horseback were shot into the buffalo at extremely close range, ensuring correct placement and good penetration. A war bow is a very different beast. The goal was to hit the enemy--not necessarily kill him instantly--and do it at a range beyond the reach of his weapons. And if you have a cleared field of fire around your stockaded village--you have the chance to loose two or three arrows before the combat becomes hand to hand. The atlatl was a tool for a specific job.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

i agree but we have specific records showing atlatls were used in war, by Spanish accounts. , i assume atlatls must of been used for war for the past 100,000 years prior to writing. war can be even in groups of 50 men, not the tens thousands soldiers documented in antiquity

[@lianghaochen]

this is really cool!

[@LuisssLopezzz22]

Im reading a book about the spanish conquest named "Victory or death" ("Vencer o morir" in spanish). In this book they talk about the atlatl use and why it was displaced. Mainly because the bow. Thats it, the bow was the major reason. When the bow tecnology was more and more used, the atlatl lost his use in combat. With a bow you can shoot faster and farther.

[@nerhaci2074]

That’s 15th century not Neolithic period he talking

[@LuisssLopezzz22]

No, he talks about neolitic period in "The old world" refering to Europe and east asia, but then he mentions america in more recent times where it was still used until the 15th century (and even today in some tribes) @@nerhaci2074

[@rxotmfrxotmf8208]

Thank you very much for your clear explanation. Much appreciated!

[@AdlerMow]

One thing that improves javelin power and accuracy (beyond fletching and amentum) is a good griping T handle. I make javelins from bamboo and saplings, I love the small branches, I always select one to use as an anchoring point to my finger. Using your pointing finger add 25-50% more range and make the javelin rotate, adding accuracy. Your finger becomes a lever like a small atlatl. This is never mentioned by anyone. Also, amentum does not make your javelin harder to throw in a pinch. Just ignore it and throw the javelin by the shaft.

[@Foxer604]

a few corrections. He had Lotto was never forgotten as a concept, it was replaced with the Admentum, a leather strap which was even easier to carry and achieved the same thing with javelins. These were used by greeks and romans and even carried into the middle ages in the form of the Swiss Arrow. So the atlatl stayed in use in battle right up to the 14 1500s, it just became a soft version instead of a hard version. secondly it really wasn't about melee. Even later military forces which used javelin's instead of atlatals for their harrisers and peltists equipped such troops with swords and often shields in case melee became necessary.

[@antonmayer3767]

I have a Thunderbird Wyalusing model and I love it. By lifting it up during the throw the dart will sometimes sail with the wind travelling far with the 7 - 8 foot dart hitting with more force/thud than an arrow.

[@hamasmillitant1]

i think the main reason they fell out of fashion with standing armys is 1 its a additional peice of equiptment to provide for every trooper(like how only some guns come with telescopic sites or red dot laser sights not every gun) & 2 it requires more training to use so their combination of relatively low trained militias supplied by a local lord would have meant all but a few that understood the value of kit (spears wernt well used in most noble ranks they tended to favour swords or axes) didnt bother with it

[@lichenggong1248]

The spear replaced it

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

They didn't fall out of fashion in parts of the Western Hemisphere (Mexico, Peru) until after the 16th century. Atlatls impressed some European observers. One study does say the atlatl takes a specific kind of skill that differs from modern Olympic javelin throwing. I suspect Europeans just happened to take a different approach to throw javelins & darts, opting for throwing straps that do basically the same thing (but require a different skill).

[@Carlos-hs8zo]

I have thrown many Atlatls and what was learned right up front is that the longer you atlatl is the faster it will be but the less accurate it is. You should experiment with different lengths until you find a length that gives the best accuracy. Speed does not mean much if you can't hit the target. Believe me I have missed a lot of targets and only when I shortened the atlatl did I start getting where I would hardly miss. Keep throwing! Thanks for your video!

[@christiansorensen7567]

Good stuff. I learned from Lindybeige, that the records of the Conquistador Monks indicate that their armor was sufficient against the Atlatl. However, they had a lot of trouble against slings and stones, due to the inertia transfer.

[@popoha4380]

I would love to see an Atlatl concept that doubles as a club for some melee ability. Still Spear is such a good weapon.

[@MarcRitzMD]

When you scour around bow hunting circles, speed of sound becomes a real consideration because it sets a virtual threshold for effective hunting range. That is a problem when hunting deer who have crazy-good reflexes. It is an interplay between projectile speed, distance, speed of sound and reaction time. A traditional bow basically tops out at around 25 meters and even then, the animal is already mid-dodge. How fast would an atlatl be? If it is half as fast, then you might have half the effective hunting distance. Getting within 12 meters of prey is vastly more difficult than 25m

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I think they mainly used it for fish for easy exp while land animals are more desesperate

[@adrianrafaelmagana804]

I came across you because of a comment you made on a Spirit of the Law video, you clearly knew what you were talking about and im very glad to have found your channel. Great work!

[@greywuuf]

The only recorded history of an atlatl being used in "combat" that I know about is reports of Spanish conquistadors having their breast plates penetrated from distance by them. The western world as far as I know was unfamiliar with them at that time. It was all ready a forgotten relic. The Atlatl has never been put forth as a war weapon as far as I know. In history the Atlatl was largely supplanted by the bow. It continued in very isolated instances for hunting in the Australian area and in the High artic from skin boats. Not a bad video I am just confused as to the basis for comparison .

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Combat atlatls were widely used in the Stone Age. and ur example just proved people used them for war Just because it is not recorded on paper does not mean they were not used as weapons. im sure the ancient greeks knew about atlatls as they already had throwing straps to throw their spears. the basis of comparison is intended to explain why atlatls did not get adopted instead of javelins

[@greywuuf]

I have seen Zero evidence prehistoric or otherwise that atlatl's were ever used by an organized fighting force.....the example I sighted was a large hinting party that encountered an invading force. They used the weapons they had ... not what they were armed with to go to war. I agree with your conclusion that they we re never used as a javelin or a pike. ......I just never recall anyone saying they were . The ancient Greeks may well have been aware of them but. They would would have been way slower to deploy and costlier to make than the slings which they chose as their ranged war weapon. Nothing you have said is wrong and I don't disagree with you it just never occurred to me that there was any confusion on the issue. By and large the atlatl had been entirely replaced by the time large organized armies were a thing. Almost seems to me a "why was a blunderbuss not used in ww one " it is a Lithic relic that hung on in small groups of people that never developed a metal culture. Much as obsidian bladed are extremely sharp and effective and remained in use.. they were never an issue item in a culture that had progressed even to bronze.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

pre written history is difficult to prove or disprove if a weapon is used in war but it would be inconcievable that 0 atlatls were used for war by organized armies.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

The atlatl was widely used as a weapon of war by elite soldiers in Mesoamerica. Bernal Díaz del Castillo didn't specifically refer to breastplates, but rather any armor ("cualquiera arma"). This could mean plate armor, which some Spaniards certainly had, but he may have been mainly thinking of the cotton armor common in the area, adopted by Spanish infantry. Inca Garcilaso de la Vega also claimed an atlatl dart would pierce a person in mail front & back, & that it was the weapon the Spanish feared the most in Peru. So there's solid evidence for its use as weapon war in multiple parts of the Western Hemisphere, & that it impressed European observers.

[@joshsmith2071]

I made one they are fun to play with.

[@normanodekirk6766]

Great job. Thanks for the post! 👍🏼

[@Bromiumsplash]

Love your perspective. Lost weapons should not be forgotten. Spear / atlatl throwing could be just as popular as archery

[@EddyB78]

Would there be a speed differents if you make the back of the atlatl heavy er or lighter?

[@davidkermes376]

i studied archaeology back in college. in american sites were found many butterfly like stone objects called bannerstones. for years nobody knew what they were for so they were called. "ceremonial objects," a catchall term for, "i dunno." then one day somebody figured out you could tie the bannerstone onto the atlatl for extra leverage and increased range.

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

that is a very good question would love to see it tested out

[@snarflatful]

I've been watching these all evening and I've yet to see anyone hit a target at more than 10 paces.

[@Uthael_Kileanea]

I read this being used in one fantasy story a long time ago. Seemed super simple and practical for mid-range hunting. Always wondered about it. Now I know it's an atlatl. Thanks, KZbin.

[@swere1240]

i once as a kid made one without knowing what they were just by finding a stick that had a little nook in it where i could put another straight stick into it and i found i could wing just a straightish stick 50 yards fairly easily. it wasnt sticking in anything but it was alot of fun as as a kid. what me and friends would do most the time is find anything throwable there was an abundance of and then have wars with eachother until someone got hit in the face and noone wanted to play anymore lol. dried corncob wars, stick wars, dirt clod wars, walnut wars, hell me and a friend even had a fish war one time that started after i slapped my friend across the face from 20 feet away with a bluegill i had caught lol. man those were the good ol days

[@AdlerMow]

You would never just carry the atlatl by itself. Even with javelins, you always carry your melee spear, and just one or two javelins. The power is in your group tactics. The amentum diminished the range difference with the atlatl, making it obsolete in war when the bow became prevalent. Why nobody talks about war darts? Fletching improves javelins even more!

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

Good point… The Roman Pilum was probably a terrible melee weapon as it would just immediatly bend after the first jab. Still the Pilum was one of the most effective weapons at their disposal.

[@lobstereleven4610]

bro, what's your shoulder routine? how do you keep it healthy enough to do those throwing motions lol

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Eat

[@TimeSurfer206]

Quite correct on the comparison of the complexity of Atlatl vs Bow. The atlatl is the weapon I'd make today. I'll start working in the bow tomorrow. I would have my tools as soon as I found round pancakey rocks that just fit in my hands to slap together. But I still do so wonder about the ballistics of rocks launched from a Jai-Alai cesta.

[@paleotrekker402]

the spearthrower fell out of favor due to a changing environment long before warfare was common. Not to mention you can get some serious power out of it at range. You can throw a dart just as far as an arrow from a 50# bow. Remember, these were used to take down megafauna such as the Columbian Mammoth and the American Mastodon whose hides were as thick if not thicker than the modern African Elephant.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Still it was still used in the Americans and south east Asia alongside with bows and throwing spears

[@jzjzjzj]

yes, it also was used less in north america, to throw with an atlatl you have twist your body and move alot, spooking the animals, with a bow, as megafauna went extinct, you could shoot with little visual movement giving the animal less time to react

[@aljonserna5598]

You know, that could've been the weapon of Zeus at least before copper/bronze age since he's like the starter of order in this chaotic world (the archetype of a hero hunting/defeating a beast outside their fenced/cave comfy place and out of its remains they make food, clothing and housing technically forming culture and the behind the scenes that makes up a culture). Of course later copper/bronze ages would really depict Zeus as a javelin thrower but the Cyclopes made Zeus' Thunderbolt and yet later he asks Hephaestus to make some more (kind of like the thunderbolt is a thrower itself and others were the ammo). If anything, I wonder why it isn't talked about much nowadays that it ain't really the spear that's a superior weapon for all ages, no it's the stick that can be made into three things: javelin, lance, and spear. While the former two is more often used in horseback or in stone age/bronze age on chariots which were reserved for the nobility/higher ranks which is why, if not just by chance Zeus and Poseidon were of higher rank than Hades (you can use the mythos to see how often their weapons were used like with Hades in Gigantomachy)

[@Fak-pm7qt]

Zeus is fantasy

[@aljonserna5598]

@@Fak-pm7qt sure, but ain't he a legend inspired by fictionalized real events?

[@Toxoplasma13]

The Australian aboriginal equivalent was designed so that the spear-thrower (woomera) itself was an effective war club, hatchet, and entrenching tool, a good enough solution to the melee problem probably helped it stay in use.

[@bruno4299]

In my opinion, to understand why the atlatl became obsolete in much of the world, it is important to understand the likely context in which it was used: megafauna hunting. The main advantage of an atlatl over a bow is penetration. Observing bows used by tribes in South America and Africa makes me believe that primitive bows were not extremely powerful and perhaps not as suitable for huge animals in prehistoric times. I believe the atlatl was used with extremely heavy darts to transfer maximum energy and penetration. As megafauna disappeared, prehistoric man found himself forced to depend on hunting smaller and more agile species, which perhaps led to the popularization of the bow and arrow due to its stealth and speed.

[@andrewstrongman305]

The spear-thrower originated in France over 30,000 years ago. Australian Aborigines have used woomeras in hunting and combat for tens of thousands of years. They pair them with long, thin throwing spears, without fletching of any kind. Even so, they can accurately strike a medium-sized animal at the same distance a bow would usually be used at. The only reason "atlatl" has become the recognised term is that white people encountered Central American civilisations before Australia had been discovered.

[@kylecromwell2654]

Correct me if I'm wrong... But you could make this weapon system more effective/accurate and deadly by shortening the shaft of the dart, making the shaft thicker and with a bigger dart tip? I came across this system from a TV show and was interested to learn more about it's origins. From the few videos I've watched, everyone has darts with 3-4ft long shafts that are flimsy. I can't imagine them flying straight or fast with virtually no weight to them.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

You need a certain length for ideal oscillation. It just happens that these of 5 feet is optimal roughly

[@christiansorensen7567]

Sounds like a crossbow bolt to me Kyle.

[@tim5114]

"Why the atlatl became forgotten", *Gunshots in background* enough said

[@aoe2_elo037]

Long before guns it was forgotten

[@williammdsilva]

I notice you have a decent form and good throwing arm! Are there any resources you recommend for developing good throwing technique?

[@keen125]

Why the atlatl has been forgotten.... BANG... So... This is the atlatl....

[@aoe2_elo037]

Way before guns it was forgotten

[@AB-kg6rk]

Cool! Well done, great positive attitude!

[@charliemcdermott8823]

Spears are better for warfare , Atlatls are better for hunting an amentum would be a good middle ground. An atlatl does just double the length your arm (sometimes longer) it also ads power as many flex like a spring or bow ling and all the power comes from the back much like an arrow or rocket.

[@DjeauxSheaux]

I just don't think they're convenient for warfare. You can only carry a few darts and, as you said, they don't pack the same punch as javelins. You have to hurl the dart standing up in a big broad motion like a sling, but a sling bullet flies further so it exposes you less. You can pack more people with bows into a smaller area than people with dart throwers to concentrate your shooting, and you can shoot bows from cover or even from a sitting position, as the Huns did when dismounted. Still I think it's useful to know how to use a dart thrower because once you understand how to make one, you'll never be disarmed. I've made one out of garbage before, and pretty much any hardwood is suitable.

[@vulpesvulpes5177]

Archaeologically, the atlatl is a Paleolithic hunting tool. Designed to provide power for deep penetration in an animal the size of a modern cement mixer. The “heavy” thrower you mention as a malee weapon is the typical Paleolithic thrower from the era. The darts don’t survive. The points do. Reconstructive archeology finds that the dart was probably shorter and stouter than what you have. Deep penetration not range was desired. It’s estimated they were used from ambush at 6-10 feet, pushing the dart in to a depth of 3 feet to reach the vitals. More like 18th century whaling than modern big game hunting. Surviving bone throwers and the size and design of the points, such as Clovis, attest to this. With the demise of the megafauna in the Neolithic the atlatl morphed down into what you display there. A light weight ranging weapon marginally suited to big game hunting. But well suited to small game under specific situations. Such as the arid southwest where they were used into the early 1700’s. This was largely due to the Beaker Peoples inability to get woods suitable for the bow. But materials were available for the atlatl. It’s a tool and must be viewed in context either it’s time and the prevailing conditions. Those conditions simply don’t exist today. Thus it is a clumsy anachronism today, but it once was a deadly hunting tool emphasizing power, not range or accuracy.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

But the atlatl continued to be used by other cultures (pacific, Australia, and the americas) and the Greeks would of at least known about it since they were hosting regular olympics with devices to throw the javelin further including the amentum. They would of at least known the exisitance of the atlatl, but was never used in actual warfare

[@vulpesvulpes5177]

@@HistoricalWeapons That’s quite true. Today we assume that the atlatl and the bow were sequential technology. One coming before the other. Points suggest otherwise. Picking one geographic region at a time we see points dated to the Clovis period in the Americas that are clearly not atlatl. Too small. More like arrows. But not many. Cave art also depicts the bow in the European Solutrean culture alongside the atlatl. So these and other examples suggest the two systems were contemporary not sequential. The prominence of one over the other coincides nicely with the type and size of game hunted. Generally, as game size diminished the bow dominated. But in certain areas for specific reasons the atlatl remained well into the dawn of recorded history. Was this based upon practical reasons, such as the beaker peoples lack of suitable bow wood? Or man’s conservative tendency to stick with a tried and true technology? That’s up for debate. One thing is clear. The advent of agriculture and the demise of many large species shortly after the younger dryas indicates the atlatl was mostly a hunting weapon. This is what the archeology of our ancient ancestors tells us. As does rock and cave art. But was it a weapon of war? Man has fought down through the ages. But we don’t start to see evidence of organized warfare per se until about 5000 years ago with the advent of agriculture. Prior to that I’m sure bands of hunters clashed. And the same weapons they hunted with were used in those fights. But as warfare evolved because the stakes of war increased, so too the weapons. And the atlatl simply did not compete as a weapon of war. I hunt deer. I use a single shot rifle. Light handy and accurate. I also own several simi automatic military weapons. A deer is not trying to kill me. On the other hand if I was going into a fire fight that single shot is the last weapon I’d choose. The analogy is not one to one, but suggestive of the situation. So did the Greeks “know” the atlatl. Probably. Did they embrace it? Clearly not. Because in the end it did not compete against other options that they had at that time and place. So today folks try to resurrect the atlatl as a sport weapon. Nothing wrong with that. Embrace your past or culture. But realize you’re a contrarian. You can hunt deer with an atlatl. But a bow and arrow is generally more effective. And a gun more so. And as “sport” that’s fine. But if your next meal depended on it, or worse your head, then you’d go with the best option at your disposal. But on the other hand if elephants and giant sloth make a comeback and guns are not available, then I’d expect to see atlatl predominant in our tool box. Fox out

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

@@vulpesvulpes5177Thank you for your contribution always interesting and delightful to read something so well put together and researched! My theory is: the main reason people didn‘t use it was that it just didn‘t fit into the roster. Like he said you had javelins and arrows but the atlatl spears just fall into the crack between. I feel like if they would have tried to make them work it would have. Might have been a bit niche, but sometimes it‘s a good idea to shake up the meta a bit, so to say. A lot of things just fell out of use because they were simply forgotten, or just not trending. Look at pikes for example. It took them like 1000 years or so to make a comeback with pike squares after the roman manipel sort of beat the greek phalanx. All it needed was a bit of tinkering with formations and different distribution of manpower. btw the greeks did use cestrophendones which can be viewed as a sort of hybrid between atlatl and sling…

[@vulpesvulpes5177]

@@REALdavidmiscarriage interesting comment. I’m interested in ancient history and human psychology among other topics. I don’t research my comments per se. Rather compose from background. I’m retired and spend too much time reading or on KZbin. Donnie Dust’s Palio tracks is a channel you might enjoy. He is a recreator of stone tools with insights as to how-why. Tod Cuttler’s work shop is another channel. He deals with medieval weapons and tools. He did a video on the medieval pole staff you might find interesting. Hunting tools and weapons don’t stand alone in time and space. Nor do tactics. Books can and have been written on things like the pike in “modern” warfare. Less remembered is the psychological nature of man. Today we seek to innovate. Always looking for the better mouse trap that will shake up the status quo. This was not always so. The new guy with the new idea might be shunned at best, stoned as a heretic at worst. “Tradition” being near religious or superstitious in nature. Then there are a myriad of small interconnected factors that often get over looked. Weapons historians dote on the civil war era rifled muskets of the 1853 Enfield and 1860 pattern Springfield. Both the evolution of the arms themselves and the tactics. Civil war collectors and re enactors see the rifles evolve from long three band to shorter two band weapons as an innovation of tactics over that war. As the bayonets became less used as the pike-like formations opened up. And in net effect this is true. But the reasons behind this are practical beyond simple innovation. In 1860 ammunition was scarce. For economic reasons and logistical ones. And so men might enter a conflict with only 2-3 round in their ammo box. Making tight formations and the bayonets “cold steel”, more important than “hot lead”. The British even went so far as to call the ammunition pouch an “expense” pouch. Indicating how they viewed the relative costs of war. Because ammunition was a great expense. I’m materials. But predominantly in labor and transport. Powder and ball was expensive. So were the muskets. Ordinance records of the time show that 20 rounds of boxed paper cartridges cost as much as the musket that fired them. Ammunition was dear. And yet by 1865 formations opened up. Skirmishers roamed in small groups, the musket barrels got shorter, and ammunition was in relative abundance. Today we ask why? The rail road, I think. You see the real cost of ammunition was in moving that cartridge from some place behind the lines where women or children rolled them to the troops. Ordinance records suggest that the cost of a cartridge might be 80% transport. Once it had been initially paid for. By 1865 the rail had replaced the pack mule for the longest part of the distance, meaning more and cheaper ammo on the battle field. More ammo meant more shooting. This tight formations loosened up. No longer were men three ranks deep, where the king three band rifle barrel was required to keep the third rank from shooting the front rank in the back of the head. And the rifle was more gun and less pike. This the train influenced gun design and tactics on the battlefield. Such is the case down through history. So when we see a decrease in atlatl point size over 10,000 years then it’s possible that many factors are at play. Factors we simply can’t see because of a lack of intimate knowledge about life in those times. Points to ponder. Fox out

[@johnbr59]

Fascinating weapon, i had fun shooting a modern one. Probably fell out of favour because the bow is more compact and accurate to shoot and better for smaller, faster targets. Also maybe a genuine case of "lost technology" in many parts of the world

[@stevenwillard8436]

I get real “Uncle Rico” vibes when you’re throwing it, but I like it nonetheless. Nice job.

[@benunder50]

They use that thing to take down mammoths. Sometimes power is more important than accuracy.

[@Fedoratip79]

I think it would make a fun competitive sport

[@TL_27]

Hey man 😂 what is that giant boom we hear now and then? Sounds like a bomb

[@aoe2_elo037]

Gun range

[@runingblackbear]

I made mine when I was a young warrior being told and showed my Cherokee family ways back in 1962

[@nickdavis5420]

Hmm I know war darts where popular with the Irish look at Todd’s workshop. I feel like they could have had a use in a siege or from a war wagon a dart will go through cloth or maile

[@sipp5575]

I suspect that ancient hunters made use of traps and snares.. Finishing killing a trapped large animal with an atlatl would present less danger to the hunter than a spear..And later a bow and arrow would replace the atlatl for the same reason.

[@JanoTuotanto]

Accuracy is the most obvious advantage of the bow. Arrows can be consistently aimed.

[@frankdillon6127]

when was the bow/arrow invented? can only imagine a primitive hunter thinking of how to make this system work, then selling the idea to his people.

[@matthewjacobs141]

IMO...One of the benefits of the AtlAtl is anyone in the Tribe could use it...From young to old they could bring down a large animal...I saw a video of one Man bringing down a 1000+ lb Bison with one dart and then another to finish it off

[@lancecorporalveteran0621]

Look up the technique to make reloadable tips

[@ianuser9650]

Yes

[@fasted8468]

Made an atl atl that was heavy duty. Taped some feathers to a butter knife, add had a

[@fasted8468]

Pvc tube to launch it that flexed like a bow

[@marklewfatt4374]

My people still use them for fishing n hunting, it's called a gulpul it's long n flat it should be from finger tip to shoulder length hunting kangaroo's, Wallabies n different birds,but also in fighting with shovelnose spear tip or wooden spear tip with reverseing barb's saltwater people from Northern N.T . Central desert aboriginal use a Woomera it's difficult designed.QLD aboriginal use their different again it's flat but they hold it sideways they hold the world record for the longest throw 147metres

[@TheArchersArms]

Your putting too much power behind it, its more like an overhead lunge with a spear with a flick at the end, not a strong javalin throw.

[@vintagebowyer1692]

Wahhhhhhhhh

[@skyrimJava]

🎉

[@monteristo9247]

Smaller arrows?

[@adonvonilesere5642]

I love the report in the background

[@nefiaguirre5988]

wow good darts

[@TemujinKhan]

🎉

[@JesusChrist_myLordmySavior.]

That spear and thruster comes from my Australian Aborigines Culture, we call that thruster Woomera and the spear I don't know the language for that because our language was forced to stop by the government, so we just call spear - spear. If you guys wanna see it, just KZbin Aborigines "Woomera and Spear"

[@darlenescurvey6328]

Atlases still being made by indigenous elders in yukon

[@langdavid6852]

Yea

[@chrisgriffith9252]

America BOOM

[@outdoorsythings2573]

not forgotten. ppl hunt with them still. seen a few hunts of deer, moose even Buffalo with them. iv a few friends that have deer hunted with them and got there deer. there are clubs, tournaments, alot of shops that make and sell them. most definitely not a forgotten weapon. iv made and used for small game, rabbits, prairie chickens, pheasant etc. killed just as good as my bow.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Based on that logic all guns from the KZbin channel forgotten weapon is not

[@outdoorsythings2573]

@HistoricalWeapons I wasn't putting down anything. I'm just saying there is a large and thriving g community around them. love that channel forgotten weapons. did enjoy the video, look forward to the next, really enjoyed the calvary javalin studf

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

Dont look to the americas for superior spear thrower, look at the spears and spear throwers of the aborigines, they are vastly superior, the spear throwers are much longer and without flights, there is two types, flexable cane thinner spears and heavy hardwood spears, i had several from central australia made of heavy hardwood the thickes part of the spear is over 30mm and stiff similar to a lance, the length about 2.3 meters. These can be throw 70 meters with a spear thrower, and can easily take introduced big game like water buffalo or camels. Especially with a steel head, which are made these days. The woomera is over a meter long and made of hardwood. They are a very leathal and accurate weapon with cane spears about 2 meters long a range of 160 or mire meyers can be easily acheived. They outmatch a bow for power many times over and the spears can be used in close combat. The reason the spear throwers in the americas are smaller is probably because bows were dominant

[@nerhaci2074]

Aboriginal of which land lol

[@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367]

@@nerhaci2074 ah well generally the term is used for the australia natives, but i get your point.. "austroloidic hunter gatherers in australia" if that is more clear. The most superior type of spear thrower or woomera are used in the north of the northern territory. These have so many features that make them so superior to other spear throws

[@REALdavidmiscarriage]

would love to hear more about these.

[@fatboy8420]

❤

[@melyjaneliban4762]

🎉

[@JacTang-yg2kt]

🎉

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

Early atlatls were made some 20,000 years ago and mideval warfare was obviously much later, so atlatls were no longer in common use. The development of archery closely followed it, due to its further range and accuracy. Shields were first used during the bronze age, about 5,000 to 6,000 B.C. so the atlatl predates them. Its affectivness over longer distances vs close in work with a hand held or throwing spear at dangerous game is obvious. Please understand that I appreciate your videos, but atlatls were used for hunting and early "warfare" i.e. clan skirmishes.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Atlatls were used in war though . The indigenous americans and Pacific Islanders used atlatls to kill in their wars. Sure it’s not as grand scale as other cultures but nonetheless used

[@Stoney_AKA_James]

@@HistoricalWeapons I agree, atlatls are still in use today with traditional hunting cultures in the Arctic, Central and South America, as well as Australia and New Guinea. I teach multiple merit badge classes to include archery and have been fascinated with primitive weapons like the atlatl ever since I made my first one in the 1970s. By the way, the world atlatl organization is a fantastic organization!

[@andrewsock1608]

Be more gentle when throwing or it does not work. The tool increases power so you can be more accurate by using less power. Pretend you are 70 years old when throwing.

[@HistoricalWeapons]

I’m on camera you know I gotta add some spice

[@beepboop204]

[@HipposHateWater]

Because the number of people who used the atlatl became not-a-lot'l

[@thomasdare7476]

All is he needs to learn is how to not over power the spear by doing a wild it will not fly properly and if you want accuracy well then stop throwing so hard I think he needs to actually study the history of these weapons to understand their functions properly and actually put it into practice

[@marcellusbrutus3346]

🎉

[@jungleebushcraft]

You yell while you hunt?

[@HistoricalWeapons]

Not hunting

[@jungleebushcraft]

@@HistoricalWeapons Only making weird noises?

[@TomLaios]

Australian aborigines used them until recently .We know it as a woomera.

[@Fak-pm7qt]

🎉

[@mrjaylan5173]

3000 views and only 200 likes

[@flashingarrows]

Why? because someone invented the bow,

[@LETME-kl9jg]

Well, when the white man came to America it was still the stone age here,... Indian's shot flint tipped arrows. And out in the pacific there's still people using flint tipped arrows. And some are still using Atlatl's. Yeah I have done Atlatl many times over the years,.....and I'm a perfectionists,.... I must hit what I aim at or it's no use to me. I guess I'm just a bow guy. So recurve or self bows or compound bows or cross bows are up to my standards. In the past 2 weekends I made 2 spear's cause I know they will work.

[@fhorst41]

🤣 you lost me at atlatl on horseback. It was a stalking weapon for killing large mammals, not a cavalry tool.

[@nerhaci2074]

He said javelins are used on horseback but atlatls cannot do that hence why use javelins along other reasons

[@rigbymauser]

lack technic

[@elshebactm6769]

🗿👍