Why The Left Doesn't Appeal To Men

[@Femyoz]

Being a guy sucks for this particular issue. No one approaches men emotionally really. As soon as I became a femboy, I started getting compliments all the time; it just goes to show why so many men are lonely and deprived of love and affection, which breaks my heart honestly. Why is masculinity conflated with being emotionless? I was no less emotional when I presented as a cis-het guy.

[@nicholasrice2933]

same except for being a femboy, its wearing a hat with devil horns. like for some reason people love it.

[@im_aleey]

So, what you're saying is to just become a Femboy? /J

[@lepkember6913]

I absolutely agree. I luckily always had an emotionally supportive family and have good friends rn. But many guys dont. It shouldnt be that hard to understand that this lack of role models, insecurities about masculinity, and lonelyness is what is used by right wing pipelines to groom young men into these toxic beliefs.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

@@lepkember6913 You're right. I think that's probably the biggest issue, the environment teen guys grow up in. If your family and friends are open to change and embrace thoughtfulness about others, then you'll follow suit, if not then how's a young man to be different.

[@cheesecakeisgross4645]

Not emotionless, stoic. Its about controlling your emotions.

[@robynsummer7068]

It really is upsetting how almost the entire video essayist side of the left has abandoned the idea of trying to appeal to people who don’t already agree with them.

[@Retog]

Who are the big names? I don’t watch breadtube video essayists

[@ryri51]

That isnt how they see it, though.

[@sophiepooks2174]

Lets face it most left leaning women are not really interested in conservative men anyway, not interested in anyone who doesn't see you as an equal, but some kind of game to be won, opposites sometimes attract but often too opposite is painful and incompatible.

[@jloiben12]

Because these types of people generally aren’t interested in making the world better. They, by and large, just want to virtue signal

[@pommedeter7407]

It still has purpose. It helps educating people who are convinced. Debate is better at convincing, Essay is better at educating. Having different content for different purposes is valuable, the problem is when essayists shit on debates or the concept of convincing people

[@UltraXan]

I slapped together this chonker of an essay on one of Vaush's videos to help bolster his point in a way some people might understand it better, and I figure I might as well put it here too: I think a good way of examining the overall problem Vaush is trying to point to is this: Feminism as a movement arose as opposition to the traditional gender role(s), norms, and expectations that were assigned to women (ie, be beautiful, be silent, obey your husband, be the sole caretaker of the kids and homestead, etc etc you all know the drill). Such gender expectations are, in a nutshell, unreasonable and unrealistic. I think just about everyone on the left with a decent amount of knowledge on the subject under their belt knows this. These expectations weren't anything strictly codified, per se, or even genetically intrinsic to women, but rather imposed (subtly or otherwise) by existing society, who in turn had THEIR expectations imposed on them by the previous society/generation, and so on and so forth. We are now in a day and age where we have the presence of mind to perform a meta-examination of such gender norms for women and are learning just how arbitrary and harmful they are. The thing is, men have their own set of gender expectations that have been imposed upon them in the much the same way as women; they just look different. Men need to "be manly", with that being defined differently each generation but generally involving some degree of independence (usually financially, but also in other domains), being physically strong and emotionally invulnerable, have sex with beautiful women, etc... If you're paying attention while reading, though, you'll notice 2 things: 1) these gender expectations for men are just as difficult/harmful/stressful to realistically conform to for men as the gender expectations for women are for women (This is the CORE issue), and 2) these male expectations incidentally confer a greater deal of social power to men than the female expectations do for women. Whether this second point is by design or emergent from millennia of human civilization is another discussion altogether. Both of those components are important to understand if you want to get a more complete grasp of the picture. Twitter lefties, however, tend to only focus on the second component, as well as the associated fascistic consequences from it. What Vaush is trying to draw attention to is the first component (without detracting from the second because it's still very much true), because it's that first component that's the core problem and what's actually causing many of the mental health problems many young men and incels are facing, rather than a threat to the second component (as Twitter lefties seem to think). Men and women both face the same core gender expectation problem, it just looks different for each because of the emergent consequences that we have to deal with every day. While the Left understands the intricacies of the problem as it pertains to women (ie the left understands components 1 & 2 and knows to correctly systematically dismantle both), they've decidedly ignored its manifestation in men while the Right hasn't. The thing is, as with much of what the Right does, they fail to fully understand the problem as well and provide a (politically advantageous) solution to these men that end up making the overall problem worse - that is the Right is reinforcing the first component (ie be stereotypically manly), which doesn't solve the core problem but still gets these men on their side, incidentally reinforces the second component, and consequently gives them more raw political power. What Vaush is trying so desperately to tell everyone (and I find it incredibly frustrating that he's having such a hard time getting people to understand this), is that the Left needs to ALSO address the first component of the gender expectation problem in men, except give them an actual solution to their problem that the Right only wants to perpetuate. When an incel says something like "women owe me sex!", the Right responds with "Yeah, women DO owe you sex!" while the Left responds with "Ew, no one owes you shit, go away." The Right validates their feelings, doesn't actually solve the problem in a healthy way and in fact makes the problem worse, and gets them on their side to use for political purposes. Meanwhile the Left invalidates their feelings and tosses them aside. AKA, the Right gets more political power by default and the Left makes things harder for itself. Instead, the Left can respond with "Hey, I get that you feel that way. Everything in society is telling you that you need to 'fuck bitches and get money,' and I know it's disappointing that these expectations can just seem so big and impossible and out of reach. That's because, for the most part, they are, and you'll probably drive yourself crazy trying to meet them. The thing is, women don't owe you sex any more than any random stranger owes you anything. And yeah, it's frustrating that your biology is flooding your mind with all these sexual feelings and desires and you're having a hard time fulfilling them, but if you're patient with yourself and with the people you encounter, I can assure you that you'll fulfill them eventually. In the mean-time, here's some coping strategies and other resources to help you with your feelings. If you feel a need to talk about them more, there's a community over here you can go to and they'll be happy to engage with you and talk about it. Respect others, respect yourself, and in time, you'll figure out what it means for you to be a man that's much healthier than the version that was slapped together by our more ignorant predecessors." It's harder than what the Right has to do. A LOT harder. It involves showing compassion and empathy toward people you're 99% sure would never do the same for you unprompted. But if we're trying to build a better world for everyone to live in, well... As the saying goes, nothing worth doing is ever easy.

[@cyber_rachel7427]

THANK YOU. I'm going to steal this and modify it a bit (I think expanding on the separate discussion re: intentional or emergent from millenia of social forces thing could be useful for some folks) but this is effectively what I've been trying to find a way to express

[@bonthebunnycat667]

Sadly a lot of this falls in deaf ears, whenever I try to tell men that the gender expectations set affect both of us they are like "Noooo women have it so much easier they are all whores and gold diggers grrrrr my life is so much harder than everyone else grrrr" or "No feminist thinking wants to murder all men and babies we will form our own ideology!" (That unsurprisingly becomes right wing). Vulnerable men will at the end of the day prefer to listen to an "intellectual in a suit" who will promise them power, a better social position and fulfillment blaming all their problems on women than to listen to "a snowflake feminist" who actually wants to make things better for everyone cause one helps them keep the facade of invulnerability and stoicism that they have already been forced into since birth. It also doesnt help that a lot of the "feminists" these men have in their mind are actually just man hating terfs so... Basically we're screwed cause of the anti sjw gamer gate being mainstream and popular in its era, it has a tight grip on a lot of the culture and thinking

[@UltraXan]

@@cyber_rachel7427 By all means, go for it. It's the sort of subject one could write a book about so I know I left out A METRIC FUCKTON of detail for the purposes of trying to be as concise as possible (and even then it was still titanic lol). Also not impossible I bungled some ideas in the process to, but I'm glad I was at least able to provide some structure to the overall idea. At the end of the day, all I was doing was applying a bit of computer science (which I've found VERY useful for understanding sociological phenomenon) where you take a look at seemingly different problems, abstract away the details that make them specific to each instance, realize that they actually share the same core structure, and then apply a computer science principle where a solution for one problem of a certain type will work for another problem of the same type - you just need to tweak it a bit. In a nutshell: just as feminism's goal is to teach women that they can be their own person and don't need to conform to society's standards, so too must we do the same for men. The details differ, of course. As a former young teenage boy myself, I can attest that sexual frustration that you're not getting any and lacking understanding of why is a very real thing, and seems to be exceedingly common. Biological impulses suck that way. Now I got lucky in the sense that I care deeply that the things I believe are true, and rather quickly came to learn that right-wing figures are completely full of shit and not worth listening to, but this isn't the case for a LOT of men. They get suckered into listening to confident-sounding bullshit artists who know how to validate their frustrations, even if that right-wing validation leads them down a very destructive path for both themselves and society as a whole. God damn I type too much lol.

[@anthonynorman7545]

+

[@delneus]

@@UltraXanThanks for spending the time on all this, it's such a relief to find someone with a similar view on the issue of men and feminism. So many feminist are callous or ignorant to the experience of men, while simultaneously yelling at them to understand women and be better. It reminds me of how other movements like black lives matter hit a wall when the time comes to be more inclusive so they can reach those who might come to oppose them, but just ends up yelling at them and losing the optics war, choosing to die on stupid hills. Not a perfect parallel but similar. The current wave of feminism also has a serious issue of putting women on pedestals as a by-product of tunnel vision on the most egregious misogynistic men. They tell men so much that women are just people, but gloss over their problematic behaviors or just don't talk about them because they don't wield systemic power, it's a mistake that makes them seem like they're full of shit to many men.

[@DrumWild]

I'm old AF, and I can give you some socio-historical context to this. This will be long, but it's about DV, divorce, child support, the MRA attitude back then [they weren't called that, and had no specific moniker], and the general attitudes about men from our legal system AND society as a whole. I was 23 in 1988, and had trouble getting with ladies my age. They preferred to get with an older man who was already established, over struggling with a guy who is just starting out. So I borrowed from their philosophy, and got with a 38 year old divorcee. DO NOT do that, ever. The power dynamic difference is horrific. There were Domestic Violence laws out there, specifically the Violence Against Women Act [VAWA]. This was brought about by Joe Biden. To be clear, today I held my nose and voted for him, but this was a disaster. It wasn't based on ANYTHING resembling psychology. Instead, it's something that put together by roughly 30 women, some who were DV victims, and others who claimed to be. In Los Angeles, a HUGE beneficiary of this was a woman named Alyce LaViolette. You'll recognize her, as she was the "expert" who attempted to defend JODI ARIAS, by declaring the victim [a man who was naked in the shower when he was attacked and killed] to be responsible. She rightfully got backlash for that. I yelled at my future ex. She told the cops she was scared, and I was taken to court by the city. I was NOT allowed to plead "Not Guilty" because I do not own a home or have a savings account that I can put up for a trial. So it was guilty, guilty with an explanation, or no contest. I went with no contest, and was sentenced to 50 hours of community service, and ONE YEAR of "Alternatives To Violence." ATV was the program devised by Alyce LaViolette. I had to show up every Thursday for two hours, at $35 per week, for one year, with quarterly reports to the judge. And before you're allowed to "graduate," you had to admit that you did something wrong. So I said that I yelled, yelling is violent, and violence is wrong. Well, my future ex-wife was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. This got horrifically dangerous, and we had a kid. She figured out that she could threaten me with the police, saying she would dial 911 to say that I hit her if I didn't give her $750 for a purse she wanted. Rent back then was $850, to give it context. The social attitude is that women can hit men, AND men ARE NOT ALLOWED to defend themselves. One guy in my ATV sessions was there because he held onto his GF's arm while she was trying to KHS by jumping off the balcony. It left a slight handprint, so he was charged. It was the hey-day of the Domestic Violence GRIFT. Nobody got helped. Nobody got better. Couples weren't helped. Men were demonized, and women were afforded sainthood. They were viewed as helpless victims who cannot take care of themselves. I call it Sexism of Low Expectations. One fateful day, I decided to run for my life to get away from her, after she pulled a huge knife on me while I was sleeping, and I almost didn't wake up in time to get out. I fled to LAX and my mother bought me a ticket to flee the state. Back then, ANYONE could go ANYWHERE in the airport, so I was not safe just because I had a ticket. I was hiding behind pillars, terrified for my life. I saw two LAPD officers, so I told them the situation, and that she might show up there with a knife. I asked them what I should do. They said, "Now remember, son, that you're not allowed to hit a woman, AND you are not allowed to defend yourself because she might get bruised. So what we recommend you do if she shows up with a knife and attacks you is to put your hands in your pocket and yell for help. Otherwise, we'll have to arrest you." They then had a chuckle and abandoned me. Protect and Serve. Fortunately, she did NOT show up, and I was able to escape. She did find me within 24 hours, which was creepy. But I digress. I knew that I would have to get a divorce and I was BROKE. I went looking online. MRA didn't exist yet as a label, but those people existed. I found a website that looked like it was made with Microsoft Word Clip Art, where they promise to "help" men with various vague issues. So I emailed the guy. He writes back and tells me that they help for $300. I respond and let him know that I understand this, but WHAT do they do for that $300. He replied, telling me that he felt I was trying to infiltrate his organization, and "Pay up the $300 and find out." In the mid-90s, I felt abandoned by society as a man. She used my son against me constantly When it was time for the divorce in 2000, I didn't have a lawyer. I had moved back to LA and was trying to re-establish myself, working a temp job that paid $11 per hour. My future ex lied downward about her income to get more money in a child support award. She also fought for minimal visitation, to get more money, so I would be given 8 HOURS PER MONTH visitation with my son. When it came time for MY income, the judge DID NOT like that I was making $11 per hour. She told me, "I cannot believe that you're working a temp job for $11 per hour, so I am going to make my judgement based on what I feel you should be making as a white man." Yes, she was black. It took me SIX YEARS to get to that place. Fortunately, my new GF helped me get through that financially. We are still together. Here's how child support worked back then. It might be better or worse now, but I don't know. If you miss one payment, they take ALL of your licenses, from fishing license, all the way up to business license. Of course, they still expect you to earn money without a drivers license or business license. This is the case even if you pay 99% of your support and they complain. When you miss the second payment, they arrest you and put you in jail for 18 months while you await what they call a "speedy trial." Good luck getting a job after getting out of jail. Oh, and being in jail DOES NOT relieve you of your child support responsibility. While you are in jail, your child support amount due increase as usual, but with a HIGH interest rate and administrative fees. Fortunately, I did not have to live that. Many fathers have lost their lives because of this. One man was ordered to pay 2x his monthly salary in support. He went onto the steps of the courts in San Diego, with a KMS note in his pocket, and put a pew-pew to his head, to put it nicely. His daughter wrote a letter to the courts to let them know how they took her daddy away from her. The system was brutal and draconian. I'm not in the system anymore, as my son is the same age as Vaush. The only positive changes I've seen was in social attitude when Alyce LaViolette attempted to defend Jodi Arias. My hope is that her grifter days of harming men for profit are over. I wrote her an email to let her know how she ruined my life, and what I thought about her. The MRAs of today are more aggressive than ever with regard to recruiting young men and twisting their minds for profits. Unfortunately, it is more easy and profitable to post those toxic things online, which is why Facebook and KZbin can be so destructive. So far as THE LEFT is concern, they never offered up ANY support for men AT ALL back then. I feel as if they were in on the grift with everyone else, since this came about thanks in part to Joe Biden. I'm not anti-Biden, even though I am very disappointed in his recent issues. My Lefty friends and I refer to him as "Sloppy Joe," as we share disappointment that nobody on the Right came up with that, since name-calling is their primary talent. If I had to give ANY advice to young guys today, I'd say what I told my son. DO NOT be in a hurry to get into a relationship. BEWARE of the age difference dynamic. LEARN about your local laws, even before cohabitating. DATE for a long time before moving in, because moving out is a horrific and expensive thing. WAIT a long time before getting married. DO NOT have children right away, and wait to see if any crazy cracks show up. DO NOT leave your condoms unattended. That's how I became a father. Remember to GO VOTE in a way that bolsters your interests and brings your life a sense of safety. I know there are lots of young guys out there who are NOT getting this kind of advice from their parents, because parents typically do not talk to their children as if they are intelligent beings. They tend to favor making their children fear them, and demanding that they stay quiet. This helps no one, and it's a case of absolving one's self of parental responsibility. Finally, if you feel lonely because girls won't talk to you, DO NOT join ANY negative online groups, INCEL or not. They will take advantage of confirmation bias for the sake of their own profits, and you will become a monster who is trapped on their grift chain. You are better than that, and you MUST believe that you are important enough that you are above that toxic garbage. Building your self-esteem, above all else, will be THE big thing that pays off throughout the course of your life. I've only gotten mine in recent years, after being diagnosed with Autism. Self-Esteem is hard and takes lots of work to get and keep. Don't screw up your life the way I did. Love yourself. Be safe out there, and take care of yourself above all others.

[@spurge83]

That is such a poignant message. I am sorry you went through all that you did.

[@KairoStark]

This is a great message that more people should hear. I hope things are better now, I'm sorry about all that shit, and I'm sorry I cant do more for you than just wish you the best. Godspeed, struggler.

[@dangerousd1312]

i hope you’re living well now brother

[@Matt_of_the_mountains]

Thank you for sharing that.

[@heyy1829]

The POLICE told you that you cant defend yourself against a woman with a knife, or they would arrest YOU? I find that hard to believe

[@joostvanweerden5143]

First conversation between a 14 y/o white man and a leftie: Leftie: you should be aware of your privalige, you are part of the dominant group of the patriarchy and your feelings or insecurities do not matter at all to us. 14 y/o kid: ...... The entire left space, like everywhere: Why dont men like us? Me: ......

[@Chelaxim]

Leftists tend to sound like Sean Hannity when men complain.

[@Femyoz]

It's honestly such a stupid hill for the left to die on. In my early teen years, I was literally conservative simply because I felt like conservatives were more accepting of white men and my edgy sense of humor. I'm a left-leaning femboy now, it's really not hard to win over a lot of these disaffected young men, literally all we have to do is validate them more than the right will, because they literally just want external validation and approval.

[@pilloworwhat]

i don't feel like that is what happens. unless you are actively taught to be selfish and self centered from a really young age, you can accept the fact that you are systematically more privileged than other people and you would want to do something to make sure everyone is equal. If the right wing attracts white cis het men, it also isolates them from seeking therapy and treating something when it's wrong. if white cis het men have to hate on minorities to feel good and superior, i mean it's just a downhill from there.

[@that_heretic]

It's almost like class is important. Nah...I'm sure I'm just being reductionist.

[@ryri51]

Lmao, come the fuck on this has never happened. Much of the left are teachers they are not talking to their students like that. I have never ever been attacked in a leftie space for being a white man because most lefties are white men

[@KairoStark]

It kinda worries me that something that is as common sense as "you simply cannot essentialize evil onto a particular sub-group of people" is so "controversial" that whenever anyone says it other people have to say "tru tru". Now, there is a lot of weird discourse about "how males see their sexuality", and eerily enough, very few of the people going over that actually ASK, which is as dumb as men trying to talk about how periods feel. There's a whole lot of guys who have grown to be, lets say, scared of their sexuality and have been told that their desire is "le bad". I'm glad to see that at least some people have the common sense to understand how complicated it has become for people who DONT want to be assholes. Also kinda glad that someone acknowledges that the common cis white straight man has, by himself, the same amount of social power anyone could have related to their socioeconomic capability. What right-wingers offer, and what a lot of men desperately want, is a return to form. A direction to go. The wrong direction, granted, but its a place where they dont have to feel apologetic for things other fucking dudes did. A place to belong, if you want. It hits white males the hardest not just because of "society", but also because there are very few forms of brotherhood that white males get to enjoy. There is a special kind of bond that only gets to grow when a group of people go through the same shit together. We see that, FOR EXAMPLE, with black people: they all suffer through racism and thus there is (most of the time) a shared understanding of the suffering and support. This is a normal thing to want. A connection. (Going on the virginity tangent would be a post of its own bearing in mind we're going through what seems to be a sex-negative phase in most sectors of society and the only sexual relief that seems to be "acceptable" is jerking off to smut messages you get on Tinder and drawn things that barely look human, but one of the solutions for most problems would be to aim for more people to have satisfactory, real, human sex) However, it is also important to understand that there are some sub-sectors on the left that simply DONT want to understand. Their money and influence comes from them not understanding and essentializing all the evil onto cis straight white males. The left itself has given those people a lot of attention, likes, retweets and even money for years, and we now find what happens: that a lot of young men feel like there is no place on the left for them. And I'm not gonna mince words about this: if the left doesnt change this, we all lose. And we will lose again and again, because in not understanding, the left is becoming what they claim to hate and also alienating even more people than the right could by taking away a basic right like abortion. Not even kidding.

[@vitaliitomas8121]

@@daniels.1746 which can range from rape to "he looked at me weird" while dude just had a 1000 yard stare.

[@V555Vendetta]

I grew up orphaned, in and out the streets selling bubble gum in Edo guerrero in Mexico, came to the USA as a teenager to just end up living in a car here. My grandma raised me on pennies, wasn't enough to feed ourselves so I'd take to the streets to make money. People wanna talk about men not being opressed, I was a 10 year old boy and expected to feed everyone around me. Because a "man pulls himself up from nothing" and "if you're old enough to eat you're old enough to work". You guys wanna know what I was thinking at that age? It's definitely not "ah fuck yeah I love opressing women". It was "when will my next meal come, will I starve to death? Where is my family why are the other kids living in a stable house while I'm here starved of food and affection" Last year I started getting paid to dye my hair, people not only can't tell I'm not half Mexican anymore, but people think I'm a bisexual white male. (Im half white my mother was a white woman) First day of dyeing my hair blonde, first exact day, people treated me with affection I couldn't even react right to, affection I never had growing up in slums fighting to survive. I have never faced this many compliments from men and women. I didn't know how to react, made me disregard a lot of toxic beliefs. People bring up bad experiences with men, then TEACH THEM NOT TO ACT THAT WAY OR ELSE IT'LL KEEP HAPPENING. Men are humans like you and there are experiences being a poor man, especially a poor man of color, that are scary and similar to the ones experienced by women. Being in front of a cop as a man of color might be your last day. As a Mexican man living in America I've faced racism. Cops arresting me for no reason. Black men get guns pointed at them by police for no reason I've lived in black communities a lot here too, even a lot that come from the south admit while they have a lot of the same struggles that rednecks have and they can relate, half of them being racist made them move up. Working class is working class. Your average working class woman has more in common than a working class man who works 18 hours a day to put food in the table than a woman who's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Don't be fooled by fake leftist nonsense, we are in this together. This is not the real left! Want better men? Give them a chance to learn, don't shun them, teach them like you teach everyone else. This is half the world's population we are talking about here, we aren't all evil it's common sense.

[@dallaswagstaff909]

preach it brethren!

[@KairoStark]

yep there is a lot of people who simply dont wanna face the idea that males might be oppressed and that they might know how it feels when life kicks you down and people treat you like dirt as much as anyone else

[@wilhelmiusroderick8167]

Most mexicans are half white.

[@V555Vendetta]

@@wilhelmiusroderick8167 my dad was mexican mostly indegenous nahua descent, my mom was a german

[@wilhelmiusroderick8167]

@@V555Vendetta that is exactly what half white means. My wife is Chilean, her father is white of Spanish descent (brown hair, brown eyes, Mediterranean look), her mother (not entirely since she doesn't have any language knowledge) is more of indigenous Mapuche descent. So she's half white, like the majority of latin Americans (of course by a different degree each one).

[@dallaswagstaff909]

thank you for being based; a large segment of the left doesn't wanna talk about male issues and sometimes outright demonizes us. This, along with my parent's bad explanations as to why their left leaning, led me to feeling outcasted and then i started going down the right wing youtube pipeline because they were some of the only people to talk about it, regardless of how traditionally hyper "masculine" and wrong they were. I was always at my core a libertarian and the right knows how to weaponize that ideology for their political beliefs; through the trump years I realized how many broken promises were made by the right and especially after trumps covid response I dismissed them as a serious and or principled working class party. My deradicalization started with watching jimmy dore and krystal and sagger on the hill; i eventually stopped watching Dore cause hes kinda an idiot and eventually i started watching secular talk, majority report, democracy now, vaush. the left being so hostile to men is the core reason i didn't consider leftist idea's. its almost like being or atleast feeling hated by a group of people for reasons that seem unreasonable can make people dismiss the views of that entire group. Inclusivity should be blind when possible, escpecially when building movements to change the world for the better

[@debanikgoswami4834]

Right actually cares about men's interest like- fitness, having a purpose, improving dating life etc. Whereas the left constantly demoninses men's interest as toxic. No self respecting guy would want to be feminine.

[@sankyu178]

The left: We hate ableism, we should be compassionate towards people who don't have the abilities we take for granted. Me: I have autism. I get nauseous if food has a weird texture The left: We understand

[@cc-bk3tx]

This

[@KairoStark]

this is so on point I'm actually mad now

[@Kickiusz]

Even people who are okay with that last one are only okay with it _after_ they learn you're neurodivergent. You have trouble talking to people? Pfft, go touch grass, just talk to people, who cares you don't know how. Oh, you have the exact same issue and are autistic? Oh, then it's (somewhat) understandable, it's not like just being very sheltered is as much of your own fault as being autistic is. I swear, people treat autism like it's an illness, where its symptoms are only okay if you have a paper saying there's something "wrong" with you. This is why I started defining myself as autistic long before I got diagnosed.

[@anticorncob6]

This is the social justice bigot left, not the left in general.

[@Mynti_Dragon]

TRUE!!!

[@nervousbreakdown711]

My dad was abused by three different women, my mom included. Now he’s falling down the pipeline. There does seem to be a a disenfranchised/damaged male-to-far-right issue

[@nervousbreakdown711]

@@NoMoreSuperHero what because it doesn’t line up with your particular experiences and view of the world it’s a lie? Do you go to the AITA Reddit posts and accuse them of lying, too?

[@kertchu]

@@NoMoreSuperHero you don’t believe men can be abused by women? That’s kinda patriarchally misandrist Edit: yes I just invented that term

[@anticorncob6]

@@NoMoreSuperHero AITA is "Am I the @$$shole". I use those symbols to avoid the algorithm deleting me. It's a toxic internet forum, tbh.

[@kertchu]

@@NoMoreSuperHero how is it not? The belief that men cannot be abused by women stems from the patriarchal idea that men are stronger than women. This idea hurts men because people will naturally assume that men cannot actually be abused by women which leads to situations where the man is getting hit by his female partner and if he hits back in self defense he will be the one who is arrested, since this idea hurts men it is misandrist (it is also misogynistic, things can be both misandrist and misogynist) and it stems from patriarchy, hence: “patriarchal misandry. Edit: clarified a thing

[@kertchu]

@@NoMoreSuperHero equal rights equal fights?! WTF?! Im not saying men should be able to abuse women for it to be equal. I’m giving an example of a way to call parts of patriarchy that hurt men. But it’s clear you’re a troll so I won’t engage with you anymore.

[@princeboyd3795]

I think another part of this whole issue is the fact that many of these young men get caught when they think that all this stuff matters the most. When i grew up i realized that all the stuff people like tate focus on (hustle culture hyper masculinity ect.) Means jack shit because the real world doesn't have time for that stuff. I feel like if we focused on that aspect and less on getting girls we'd be alot better off

[@andythedestro12]

It feels like lefties really forget the tag line of "Oh we don't have a problem with masculinity; we have a problem with toxic masculinity" or at the very least had an unspoken "toxic masculinity = all men who don't do the performative ally bullshit" addendum there.

[@jayhollows5729]

I think a lot of it comes from gendered expectations of men and women that men an women both suffer having to keep up with. Guys for a long time were taught by other men that showing emotion is weakness (I was raised as a boy from a masculine high expectations father) and because those gendered expectations it's impossible for say men to get custody because gendered expectations towards women to be the designated caregiver in the legal system. So gendered expectations of men and women contributed to the harm and loneliness of men. Also because of what my dad "taught" me to do actually caused me to look like a quite school shooter that people didn't want to approach and that's why I suffered from the male loneliness issue, until I reevaluated everything I knew. Gendered expectations of men and women should be abolished so that men and women no longer suffer systemic issues due to gender

[@NotANameist]

The left: men need to become more vulnerable and learn that it is OK to express their feelings Also the left: boohoo, male tears 😭

[@Jazzmaster1992]

Even ignoring the right-wing adjacency to the manosphere, that space simply gives solid, actionable advice to solve men's issues with women. The left doesn't. Online guy: I can't seem to get a girlfriend and I don't know what to do, this is so frustrating Lefties: yikes, have you tried like, being a good person and not a creepy incel? lmao Manosphere: go to the gym, groom and dress well, get out of your comfort zone and hit on a bunch of women until you get good at it and start to see success. If you have any questions about these, we have more detailed answers. It's not even just leftists, it's most "normies". From a glance, a lot of people just give dogshit advice in general. Being a good person, not being creepy, and "seeing women as people" is all great advice if you want to be someone who's probably gonna get friendzoned a lot. And for those who take issue with that term friendzone, hear me out: the issue isn't that being nice and non-creepy is bad, it's that it's not sufficient to making yourself *attractive* to women in a way that makes them actually want to date and sleep with you. The manosphere at least understands the importance of sexual tension and overtly risking rejection by putting yourself out there, instead of encouraging guys to waffle around aimlessly and not be able to express clear intentions around women they're attracted to. It's also aggravating when this gets brought up, and some leftists respond "it's not our job to help men get laid". Okay, then don't bitch when they turn to spaces online that actually try to give advice and solutions, even if you think it's cringe and bad. Because for the most part if you follow the right advice, you WILL get some success, as long as you're actually doing things and not just posting blackpill doomer comments on reddit threads and youtube videos.

[@torrb420]

This. Being a "good person" and not "creepy" and a stand up person, makes you a saint. We are all fallible and flawed. However, being "like the bestest and kindest softboy ever" isn't attractive, and often times dismissed by most leftie woman as being "boring". So you are both supposed to live a life by a certain virtue, but that virtue also makes you too average and boring and therefore not attractive enough to be a suitable suitor. If anything, I think it's just an effective psyop to get rid of their "extras" so these Individuals can then have less focus and attention from those who already had no shot and focus on their prize. It's about getting rid of the competition. If we are also supposed to be minimizing patriarchal/capitalist hierarchies and expectation calling the guy a "loser" or whatever is a classist assertion. And when many woman, especially leftist ones, still come from a very capitalist structured mindset of "dating up" those heirs hies persist. I have seen too many "leftist" cis straight woman who are just as bourgeoisie chasers as anyone else, and still very much obsessed with status and one's station(the whole stay in your lane they like to throw around) than what is actually right. Leftism is just an online trend like any other to exert dominance to obtain a desired place in the social/capitalist hierarchy. All I'm saying is, you won't win over people by saying one thing and doing another. You will be seen an an obnoxious hypocrite trying hard to just maintaine an influence/clout circle. I feel much of people's left identity online comes less from virtue and more from a place of selfishness. They don't care as much to make the world a better place as a selfless act towards others, but it's more about what they themselves can get out of it personally and then you wonder why the right wing memes of the left become terrifyingly accurate.

[@Tachyon836]

This is true. To be honest it does feel as though the left is designed to appeal to women.

[@highcouncil1302]

The problem with the term friendzone is it implys your only friends to get laid your better off asking them out in that situation because if your actually friends you won't care if they reject you you will still be friends

[@Jazzmaster1992]

​@@highcouncil1302 Frankly, when a woman says "let's just be friends" she doesn't necessarily intend to follow through and be a great friend for you either. She is simply "letting you down easy" by informing you that whatever is going on between you now will never progress past platonic interaction. Saying you're friendzoned is just a simple way of saying "that woman I asked out/expressed interest in let me down gently".

[@nicholasrice2933]

for real bro, I feel like if the people who are personally annoyed by the topic just shut up and let the people who do care about it deal with this, their silence would solve half the issue.

[@amoral_minority]

Just send everyone to Beau of the Fifth Column

[@that_heretic]

This. Best advice in this thread.

[@D_McGeezacks]

Agreed

[@KairoStark]

I mean he tends to be right on most stuff but it doesnt solve the problem itself.

[@MasonMorgen]

Wasn't he in trouble for human trafficking back in the day?

[@kremitssymbiote403]

I feel bad for anyone who got dragged to the right

[@MusicMissionary]

You can also grow up surrounded by it. And anyone you go to for advice gives you right wing answers. Born in a trap and nobody cares...

[@jgomo3877]

Forced.

[@jumpate]

I feel bad for anyone who took sissy skittles

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

Those who got dragged into the left aren't that much better yet.

[@onyxxdrako4648]

It really sucked

[@Sizifus]

The big problem with why left seems unappealing to these lonely men is because initial interactions seems hostile. Too many lefties are unwilling or unable to separate patriarchal social order from class struggle. I'd argue that most men are good people, they are just as empathic and considerate as most of the women. It's usually those who hold a considerable social and financial capital who sell patriarchal social order to the youth. And thus, inability to distinguish men problems from the class struggle is what makes left to lump it all together and dismiss it as the "problems of the oppressors" The current time is still in a transitional period: men are still taught to uphold traditional social contract by the old generation, while the other side expects them to treat women equally and be more emotionally available. I can tell from my own experience, men are expected to be emotionally available, but at the same time they are usually left to their own devices. A lot of men are lost and clueless, some are purposeless and hopeless of a better future, some hate themselves and see no value in themselves and comes in lefties and demand for them to give more. I myself am a leftist these days, but I was part of the MGTOW back in the day. And that movement wouldn't have such prominence if loneliness wasn't so prominent. For so many men being alone and unseen is something that is a daily occurrence and that state of existence is a slow killer of one's soul, I can tell you that from personal experience. MGTOW was basically built around coping with loneliness but for it to work, it had to basically twist reality in really f*cked up ways.

[@KairoStark]

not to mention, showing yourself as emotionally available tends to be counter-productive if you actually wish to have a relationship because no matter what people tell you, men are still 100% expected to be the ones who initiate, the ones who provide, the ones who "get shit done" and the ones who never complain no matter what, and the whole "male tears" toxic bullshit only provides more fuel to the flame of men choosing to be emotionally blank to avoid getting destroyed.

[@kertchu]

@@KairoStark yeah I don’t really see people mentioning this when they talk about wanting men to be more open. Like do they actually want men to be open or no? They claim to be against patriarchy yet they seem to like the part of it that doesn’t want men to express emotions

[@m.e.william2174]

I just feel like this whole “drama” isn’t/shouldn’t be drama in the first place. It shouldn’t have become an argument. I genuinely believe that both sides of the argument are correct/have some correct points, and that at the end of the day, the left simply needs to take a comprehensive approach on how they get people into the movement. Another thought that I’m having is that perhaps people on the left are hesitant to be very charitable to men, especially to super masculine white men, may be because a lot of people on this side have been expected all their lives to be charitable at the expense of their own physical and/or mental well-being. Not just at a broader, systemic level, but also interpersonally. I can’t help but think of black women in particular. We know because of intersectionality that they typically tend to face especially difficult challenges with oppression in society. Yet often times, they’re still thought to be/expected to be incredibly kind and nurturing people, who should just forgive and forget whatever injustice is done to them in order to fulfill that role. Otherwise, yeah, they become the angry black woman. I think, to someone like that, being told by the political movement that promises to fix the societal ills that made them have to live life that way that they have to (in a sense-I know this isn’t necessarily the essence of the message) continue doing outreach to the types of people who they’d long been expected to forgive no matter what can feel like a bit of a slap to the face. They feel resistant to it because they thought that by joining the left, they wouldn’t have to do that anymore. Is that making any sense? I’m not trying to defend the hostility against (super masculine/white) men by the left at all, I agree that it does much more harm than good. I just wanted to point out that I think this mindset stems from a place of genuine hurt and/or exhaustion with having another space where they may have to interact with people who think they’re less than. I know for me, growing up black and AFAB, it can be a bit difficult to fully sympathize/empathize with the things that drive young white guys into believing what they end up believing about people around them. I do try to understand and approach with good faith, though.

[@gur262]

I think you underestimate how many people suck and just want to dunk on somebody. Be it a 50kg guy, probably gay given the voice, telling all gym dudes that he doesn't care about that muscle there- triceps- prompting gymtube to respond n explain they don't work out for him- or the same with women. You'll find that video somewhere on noel Deyzels channel if you care. " We don't do it for you" i think is the prompt. True probably cause he's gay. It's the same place that makes a small dick joke about any guy wanting or having a sportscar. I think it's not that excusable most of the time. And i don't see these folks as the left but it happens sometimes and the left is mostly not engaging with the topic at all. The right takes these extremes n memes about it making em out to represent the left. Being mean and to dunk is giving plenty people something psychologically and exists everywhere .

[@T-mack56]

The way I see , I say the problem isn't that the left isn't open to addressing men's issues. But rather how they're framed. Which often times are framed as issues exclusive to straight white cis men. Particularly the issues surrounding masculinity, manhood and the expectations that come with it. An experience that I 'm pretty sure ALL men and AMAB people had to face at some point or another in our lives. Even when you narrow it down to only cis men there's still men of color/non-white men, queer men, and men who are more feminine/gender non-conforming in their gender expression. Demographics who are often left out of these discussions regarding masculinity and manhood. Which as a black gay guy myself, can be rather frustrating to deal with. Since I feel taking the experience into account can help add some more nuance to men's issues as a whole.

[@absynthe9820]

I love masculine men. A man can be very masculine without being toxic.

[@KarlMarkyMarxx]

This is why I think more leftists need to provide sports commentary. It's a gaping void that no one our side takes advantage of occupying despite it being a historically politically charged topic.

[@julianbell9161]

I’ve found my calling finally lmao. The leftist die hard sports fan.

[@benjaminjameskreger]

Too bad so much of what covers mainstream sports is purely capitalistic, but we could use a Joe Rogan or Barstool. I guess the best we've got is Bill Burr when the stars align?

[@embrikchloraker8186]

In a utilitarian sense, I would love for there to be leftist sports commentary. Diversity of tactics is important and different things will appeal to different people. That said, I'd never view it since I don't care about sportsball at all. Now, if there were leftist lolcow commentary, I would love to see that. Doing it in a leftist way is extremely difficult, but it's a guilty pleasure of mine and I'd love to not have to hold my nose when I go read about Chris-Chan or whoever.

[@Armeddragon12]

Emma Vigland from Majority Report as well as Wozney from TYT have their own sport podcasts and shows.

[@VayliraKayvex]

Kavernacle does this to some degree, he's an amazing Irish breadtuber from the British Isles, you should check him out :)

[@D_McGeezacks]

We need to make it clear that we don't demonize normal masculinity, only toxic masculinity. There's a rather pervasive belief on the right that we do not differentiate one from the other. Edit: come to think of it, some on the left actually do not differentiate, and that is a problem.

[@D_McGeezacks]

@@NoMoreSuperHero No. Stop. This is what I mean. Goddamnit This is the kind of talk that loses us allies.

[@D_McGeezacks]

@@NoMoreSuperHero This attitude is the definition of toxic. It's repellant. We're supposed to be the inclusive ones. Instead of proving my point for me, tell me why masculinity is inherently toxic. I will bet anything you can come up with will more accurately define what we know is *toxic* masculinity.

[@D_McGeezacks]

@@NoMoreSuperHero BTW I understand how what you see around you these days can affect your opinion. It's not looking too good when you're confronted with the likes of the manosphere and redpill ideology. But they do not define what masculinity is. They bastardize it.

[@D_McGeezacks]

@@NoMoreSuperHero While I disagree and believe those are extremist distortions of masculinity, I get what you're saying. However to imply that masculinity shouldn't exist is to imply that men shouldn't exist, which is both unrealistic and unhelpful. Rather I believe a healthy view of masculinity should be employed and encouraged.

[@AW-zt8iu]

Than why are you people actively attacking anyone who is male and straight? Also your kind is marking the internet a more boring place but you will never take away our based and edgyness.

[@that_heretic]

It's a bit more complicated than this, but at a certain level of abstraction: 1: There's men who gain wealth and confidence. 2: There's men who do not gain wealth or confidence. 3: There's men who do not gain wealth but do gain confidence. 4: There's men who gain wealth but do not gain confidence. Three of the four groups lean conservative because of incentives and targeted propaganda. The distribution of the population, especially in the US is more and more heavily weighing towards group 2. It's not shocking. The left needs to get better at messaging. Poor white men share our class interests, this doesn't need to be hard, the left makes it hard.

[@Colddirector]

At this point, I think any leftist reading list should have "How to Win Friends and Influence People" at the absolute top of the fucking pile before literally anything else. Leftists are so bad at outreach it's unbelievable.

[@alvisstalwart925]

It's crazy people are struggling with the idea that men who aren't patriarchs are harmed by patriarchy

[@sandshark2]

It has felt like this issue is a microcosm of the larger issue of the left having the inability to ally not with its supporters, but with those who dont support it against a common enemy. I get that many leftists are fighting against the male-dominated society, but when we need to fight for something good, like fighting fascism, you have to ally with the capitalist bourgeois to fight fascism. Just as we have to ally with men and help them in the face of male-dominated society sacrificing their lives to mold new soulless male workers.

[@NotimetoVero]

“If you have sex with me, you’re disgusting- WHY won’t you have sex with me!?” The constant message I’ve gotten from men.

[@Pistolita221]

Yeah, they have very low emotional intelligence, it's because there's an empathy gap. I'm not sure there's much the average person can do for them, but there are plenty of people who are just confused kids who can easily be set straight if you approach them with the same level of compassion and understanding you use when talking to any other group like POC, LGBTQIA and religious minorities.

[@W4lhalla]

Regarding this David Lo Pun-ch person. Its sad to see how they don't get it at all. They don't see how the right tends to recruit men into their ranks. The first step of recruiting young men is not " Hey dude, join us we want to enslave women so we can be at the top", that would be met with an instant rebuttal by too many to get enough men joining them. No the first step is " Hey dude, I know you have it rough and I understand how you are feeling. I also had it rough like you but I had people that helped me in these hard times and if you want I can get you to those amazing people". This is how they are reaching people, they give you a warm hug first and validate four feelings. The mysogony, fascism, homophobia, transphobia etc all come later. And its very effective. More people on the left need to understand that men aren't flocking to right wingers because they are already mysoginistic assholes. They go there because right winger often come with the mentioned warm hug, to validate their feelings and then brainwash them into those beliefs. Right wingers prey on insecurities and feelings of hopelessnes. And they know how to approach men, how to recruit them etc. Meanwhile we see posts from left wingers saying " The left offers compassion and empathy " and at the same time showing nothing of it. Sometimes even showing the opposite of it. The left needs to look at how right wingers are recruiting men and then understand why they can do it. Also learn from your enemy. Approach people who are lost and insecure with a warm hug. Give them the feeling that they are listened to, validate their feelings. Give them a place where they feel can they can belong to. We need to make it harder for the right to recruit men not easier.

[@johnwinchester6934]

Leftist have been screaming for decades that all straight "especially white" men are born inherently evil and racist for existing. What did you expect to happen? The left has done everything in their power to bring down systemic systems of oppression.... which also just happens to be the same group.

[@niluscvp]

I feel like in the end it boils down to disagreement on where there focus should be and they seem to have a blind spot on this subject. they dont seem to understand that talking about male issues can be a really good thing and instead prefer to focus on more narrower subjects, like trans rights or police violence on PoC. But the popularity of Tate, Peterson, growing group of incels and higher virginity stats should indicate that there is growing problem with teenagers not growing up in a healthy way and young men are not getting the right help and guidance in life and its very important they get that guidance, because every human deserves that and its how the world gets better. The realisation I hope they get is that they are allready correctly focusing on topics except that its way too narrow. You dont have to be a PoC, lgbt+, minority or ally because that leads to really big simplifications. We need everyone and that means talking about any important issue, including male issues.

[@kertchu]

I wonder what would happen if we started calling patriarchy misandrist?

[@thekarret2066]

We should.

[@devindoherty8728]

It is really sad that a large part of the left has a mental block when it comes to discussing men's issues. I have a lot of friends who i believe would benefit from the left.

[@debanikgoswami4834]

Right actually cares about men's interest like- fitness, having a purpose, improving dating life etc. Whereas the left constantly demoninses men's interest as toxic. No self respecting guy would like to be feminine.

[@deadman746]

Not only does the left not appeal to *men.* The current brouhaha is a tiny microcosm of a much bigger problem. The left doesn't appeal to anybody who doesn't want to play the leftist game, which is insulting everyone who does not recite a narrow Procrustean mantra, even other leftists. And there's no reason it should. _The left_ is not a _thing._ _Left_ is just a term that means _not right_ and sometimes means _opposed to the right._ There are lots of people, almost certainly a majority, who are unhappy with the _status quo_ and so are not on the right. But to _identify_ with as vague and abstractly meaningless a concept as *_the left_* requires more, or rather, a lot less. About the only meaningful concept even statistically associated with the left is talk about _socialism,_ and even a casual glance at leftist behavior shows clearly that what they really work for is _antisocialism._

[@DMHR100]

You have the same view as Hbomber about MRA. How does a person listen to what they say and think "they're mad cuz they don't get laid". Despite years of extensive debate about court biases, paternity fraud, false allegations, manipulation of children, alimoney, and positive discrimination.

[@baptizednblood6813]

They only use those as talking points against feminists. If MRA’s weren’t dead set on demonizing feminists than a lot more people would be welcoming of them. Because among their good talking points you’ll find a lot of sexism

[@DMHR100]

@@baptizednblood6813 well, that’s because feminism is the cause of all those issues. And the left has purposely labeled any criticism of women as sexism; even when is not.

[@bloodshredder1982]

Hey Xander your vids have really helped me escape the mgtow and andrew tate pipeline...

[@debanikgoswami4834]

We need more left wing people on self improvement,fitness,dating advice niche. It's exactly where many boys fall into the rabbit hole.

[@theorupturetan4670]

Ya know, I’ve told some of my buddies this that, with Tate and a lot of the MRA/Incel/whatever groups that my core frustration with them instead of just the hatred of women or racism or whatever, but it’s more so that I get the central pain. A lot of guys in this world are in immense pain and, essentially, they listen to whoever gives them an answer first. Regardless of if it is correct or not. Now unfortunately, Tate and whatnot are the first and only answer so many of these guys get. I get that pain because I was there a few years ago. I was a leftist at the time and honestly, the only thing that kept me leftist was I found a guy who did speak to me in a way that was progressive, Harris O’Malley AKA Dr. Need love if you’re wondering. Seriously, he used to make amazing vids. But having larger amounts of reaching out can and does work and has saved guys like me before and can continue to do it.

[@queenflowers9163]

Not to stress guys out more when it comes to dating, but telling a good friend, who is a girl, that you like them and that you want to date them can very easily backfire if done wrong. And can even permanently ruin a friendship. Women have now been conditioned to believe that any guy that is nice to them only wants sex. So, to us, when a guy isn't satisfied with only being a friend, we start thinking that he only wanted sex from the start. When it comes to male/female friendships, it is mostly better to wait for the girl to make the first move. Let her ask be the one to ask to be more than friends. Though, I get that some girls are shy. Especially, since girls have been conditioned to wait for the guy to make the first move. My suggestion is for the guy to ask a girl, "Do you like me?" Rather than, "I like you". Let her make the decision to move the friendship to the next level. This will make her feel that you actually value the friendship and her input into it. And she'll appreciate you for it, whether she wants to be your girlfriend or not. If not, it will help make the friendship better. And if she ever does catch feelings later down the road, she'll feel more comfortable about letting you know. As a lefty woman, I offer this advice with love. I've managed to "deradicalize" some guys just by being an open ear for them. I get where Vaush and Xan are coming from. Straight cis men are in crisis. And right now, only the Right is offering "solutions".

[@grimfate9711]

If he has to ask "do you like me?" he's making the fist move change how you say it doesn't change that and you wouldn't ask that if you didn't like her so it has the same affect defeating the point of "letting her make the first move" cause it doesn't

[@Scar-jg4bn]

I'm so glad I'm gay; men are much more straightforward and not into these games, lmao.

[@queenflowers9163]

@@grimfate9711 Sure, technically, the guy is still making the first move. But by presenting it as a question to her, rather than flat out saying, "I like you", the girl feels like she's in better control of the conversation. Only one question for her to focus on. She can think about how she feels about the guy and respond accordingly. By opening the conversation with, "I like you", she's suddenly overloaded with too many of her own questions. And may not know how to respond in a way that doesn't seem awkward. Like, "Why does he like me? What does he see in me? Is he only trying to sleep with me? If we do have sex, how is that going to change things?" Yada, yada, yada... Men tend to be very direct and to the point, which is often off-putting for women, who are usually more passive. It makes us feel like men are trying to exercise their control, which obviously isn't always the case. Binary gender norms are pretty f*cked right now because of all the discourse surrounding culture and the patriarchy. Which is a good thing in the long run. But for now, dating between men and women is a nightmare because of we were raised differently on how to talk. However, I am more hopeful for the future as millennials are doing a better job at raising children more equally. And are not as imposing at establishing gender norms as previous generations.

[@queenflowers9163]

@@Scar-jg4bn Yeah, we women tend to drive each other crazy, too. Men really only get us on "Easy Mode" lol.

[@KairoStark]

@@queenflowers9163 gonna quote Jim Butcher here because he said it best: *I read an article once that said that when women have a conversation, they're communicating on five levels. They follow the conversation that they're actually having, the conversation that is specifically being avoided, the tone being applied to the overt conversation, the buried conversation that is being covered only in subtext, and finally the other person's body language.* *That is, on many levels, astounding to me. I mean, that's like having a freaking superpower. When I, and most other people with a Y chromosome, have a conversation, we're having a conversation. Singular. We're paying attention to what is being said, considering that, and replying to it. All these other conversations that have apparently been booing on for the last several thousand years? I didn't even know that they existed until I read that stupid article, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.*

[@tommybruneel9573]

I think you should have a convo with healthygamergg. I think there's a lot of stuff you guys would agree with.

[@thekarret2066]

YEESSS I WAS SAYING THIS TOOOO! LOVE DR. K!

[@orelyosif5852]

Incomprehensibility of expectations put on men is what drives them mad. Contradictions everywhere

[@thepanda9782]

It's very much feeling like the "Let's just ignore the class issue" with some IDPOL movements. Or, we'll address the class issue but only from the POV of pretentious academic middle class and deny the reality that poor people often have to make choices that oppress others....or they die. For eg) When poor ppl talk about working even when it's harmful, planning for kids financially, protecting family even when they're toxic, etc is the way it is because if we act differently it can seriously destroy our lives/communities. With gender, even when you acknowledge the struggle it doesn't just vanish. Moreover, in people attempts to "fix it" they end up just pushing more harmful social theories. As a woman I've found it frustrating that "feminist" movements KEEP HAVING TO ADDRESS that No...a woman's choice to follow or not follow gender norms isn't 'feminist' or not. It's the political movement that pushes for women's FREEDOM TO CHOOSE (and let's be honest, some of us are not cut out for #girlboss life so really what do we have left lmao). I can imagine just how awful it is for men to basically be told they either must denounce all masculine traits/hobbies/gender norms OR go full MGTOW. If the left doesn't address men's social issues & make them feel welcome, we're not going to see the social change needed for gender equality/equity, and we're also setting up a false dichotomy between the left & right. The right will be about "traditional" and the left about "modernism", "masculine and feminine", etc. For everyone else with a brain, it will look like 2 sides of the Fascism coin. I don't think anyone wants that.

[@Pistolita221]

Woah, I thought you were a guy for the first half of this comment you're so understanding of mens issues (related to cultural liberation). I would say men need the same sort of cultural liberation women got last century. The difference between how acceptable it is for a very masc man to wear a dress vs a woman wearing mens clothes is MIND BLOWING when you think about it, as it seem like you already have. Thanks for being so understanding, it's about raising all boats to make a safer more equitable society not just men for men but for everyone.

[@redhandtheblack]

I grew up in the North West of England I was born in 1983. My dad always instilled in me from a young age that the rich get richer and the poor gets poorer, and I remember him shouting at the TV at Margeret Thatcher and his hatred of the Tories. So Socialism was instilled upon me from a young age, but at the time misogyny, racism and bigotry were commonplace in my town, my dad enjoyed some very gross comedians from the time and had some very racist views, despite also claiming that he had nothing against them I had a very hard time reconciling the two positions. I got in trouble a few times at primary school at around age 7 for repeating some of the phrases I'd heard at home and I got in quite a lot of trouble, nothing serious, but letters were sent home to my parents, who just kinda laughed at what I said, further confusing this neurodivergent child. It took quite a long time for me to properly understand the appropriate way to interact with people, and I'd say I'm now fully socialist, I'm an ally for trans rights, (my housemates are trans) and I strive to treat everyone with respect, and I do not judge anyone for anything, who the fuck am I to judge anyone? As long as nobody's getting hurt and it's consensual, it's none of my business. Fuck the Tories.

[@kontankarite]

I think sometimes it would be best for men to take control of the narrative of what masculinity should or could be and rebuild for new generations what being a man is. It's not impossible to rehabilitate an identity. You look at all the things Tate says. And when you see it for what it is; it is down right alien shit when he describes what a man should be. None of what he says ever lined up with my lived experience as a man. So if Tate can prescribe these notions that if a man would act upon would require effort and worj to do; then it stands to reason men can reform their circumstance materially and super structurally into a masculinity of a new type. A 21st century man. But I think this only applies to those who feel they NEED a gender identity as a sense of self. To the gender abolitionists... Yeah. You're correct ultimately.

[@stygian3824]

A while back I saw a twitter post about facism's ability to effectively recruit men, basically that the left does not at large present a world of any benefit to men and all they can do roll over and give way to who the left deems more deserving. It was put in a rather edgy way so I understand alot of the backlash but many also just ended spewing the exact kind of virtriol to prove it's point, they have no interest in pulling men out of that hole. Even worse, when other commenters put detractors on the spot about whether the left should do anything to help men, a disturbing number confidently said verbatim that they do not have to.

[@SaberToothPortilla]

This. It's shitty, but if you tell a lot of those guys "Hey, this shit that you're obsessed with, you're probably only obsessed with because you've been conditioned to think it's that important, calm the fuck down", even though it's true, they don't want to hear that shit. Which makes sense. I mean, it's real to them, and it's not their fault that they're in that situation, and when we have similar conversations around, say, body image (mostly concerning women, but also men) there tends to be a lot more sensitivity to the fact that telling someone the source of their problem, doesn't always *feel* like it's helping. These guys would rather have someone confirm to them that it *does* matter as much as they feel like it does, and either tell them how to achieve it, at arbitrary cost (Andrew Tate type), or tell them that they *should* have achieved it, *and* the only reason that they didn't is because the deck is stacked against them. (MGTOW/Incel) type. And I don't think nearly as many people have a disinterest in meeting them where they're at as they *think* they do, but I think it's literally just that no one on the left feels the need to clarify that sex and relationships, in absense of other issues, are cool, right? But all they'll see is all of the instances where people are pointing out the ways to do it wrong, which are valid, but then those guys, instead of seeing it as, y'know, an ethical policy question, they see it as another barrier to getting pussy, and less cynically, being happy. That's gotta be kinda discouraging. And I understand how people feel trying to rationalize the behavior of people who obviously don't give a fuck about their well-being, or at least are willing to throw them under the bus, but I don't think *most* of those dudes are really that committed to that kind of shit, they probably don't even want to be, they just can't accept the alternative as they see it.

[@asurafire5386]

Video games terms GO: Left is trying to beat the end game boss at level 1 and the Right is using hacks. The left needs to play the game properly so then the “gamers” are satisfied with the gameplay and don’t ragequit.

[@asurafire5386]

Another example the right is treating an MMORPG like a competitive FPS and cheating to win(which you can’t really do in an MMO rpg) and the left is treating the MMO like the Sims while it’s actually still an MMORPG(this example is a little more specific and weird so not sure if it works properly)

[@Chinesetakeout382]

I just hate that the left is choosing to be wrong here. Obviously, I morally think that we need to take everyone’s issues seriously, but pragmatically we literally just got out of gamergate and the rise of the anti-sjw’s. They don’t remember or are too stupid to see that the right radicalized tons of young men by pretending to take men’s issues seriously. What’s worse is that we can do it, but genuinely. We talk about the genuine issues with things like toxic masculinity, but we don’t do anything with it. I don’t know man, lefties go so hard about listening to people who experience the societal problems we deal with, but the moment people who escape the Alt discuss how they were radicalized and what we should be doing to reach men before they go down the path, we get shut down like we aren’t providing any information of worth. Worst of all they project the reason we fell instead of listening or considering why we may have fallen. My story with the alt right is similar to that of Xan’s. Liberal parents, rebellious teen, access to the internet and eventually found creators who pretended to care about the issues I care about, pulled back and became pretty apolitical after Charlottesville, became a progressive a couple years later to now. Of course right now, trans people face the biggest threat at the moment (and honestly is my biggest concern now), but we can walk and chew gum at the same time. I just hate seeing the bread tube response here. This is an easy dub, something that would strengthen our movement because like it or not, successful movements are attractive to any type of person who’s sympathetic to the cause. But besides that, men have issues, my compassion isn’t limited to those who are at most threat, it’s only limited by how many people are suffering and if there’s anything we could be doing, and the left could be doing a lot more. Obviously the left is superior to the right in nearly every way, but I don’t think we deserve to win as long as we keep having this refusal to care about everyone’s issue and even just think about what someone says for even a second. That’s why I wish only the best for this wing of the left people like xan, Voosh, a pillow, and shark fill. Reaching out to these men to show them that there is always another choice, there’s always space for them in the left if they want to learn and join. I only really came to the left because a few creators along with some friends and family made me feel like I could change, that I could make the choice.

[@taimaannorppa8782]

Why are you anti-feminist and womens issues

[@taimaannorppa8782]

Most cishet white men oppress women and minorities

[@KissMy2Moons]

@@taimaannorppa8782where did this come from this essay?

[@taimaannorppa8782]

@@KissMy2Moons He doesn't think women face any issues since he said "my compassion doesn'r just extend to those most at threat(non-white people, lgbt folks) but also men". What about women? Also they have other comments where they hate on women

[@KissMy2Moons]

@@taimaannorppa8782 let’s be honest here… that me too movement made men stop pursuing women. Now women complaining that men are no longer approaching. Men could be jailed for sex-harrass because he wasn’t handsome enough so why bother dating? Society cares about women unconditionally but men are abandoned. Women are more favored in custody to children with men only winning due to the mother having a criminal record/mental health problem Women maybe oppressed in the past but today is the opposite.

[@Nyarlathoteplol]

This whole controversy is making me sad, because almost everyone involved in it seems to be talking passed each other. I don't think there's actually nearly as much disagreement as people are acting like there is.

[@jonnaking3054]

As far as men not hitting women back, I wonder how that would work in the case of a trans man and trans woman... Would society be more ok with Buck Angel hitting Blaire White or Blaire White hitting Buck Angel?

[@SS-fq3xt]

Can you do a vid or a segment on a live about the whole carnivore diet trend going on? Whenever I scroll through KZbin shorts it starts with these vids and then goes immediately to right wing shit. It seems to me that what helps with these far right groups is having 1. Groups you feel a part of 2. "Yes man" people along with those groups that add on to the misinformation It is very frustrating seeing these people actively kill themselves all because they think this type of diet will save them.

[@tipze4445]

The ultimate problem is, we are, all of us, human. Leftists, just like rightists, have our own prejudices. And it takes a lot of courage to look at that and challenge that. And most leftists (like most rightists, like most people) don't like to do that. Because it can be uncomfortable to admit that maybe, just maybe, we're wrong about a thing and we aren't doing enough to fix it. Sadly, a lot of the people who keep siding against Vaush/Xander on this are sounding more and more like people on the right. Like they are bitter, angry people who remember one person in a group (of men) being mean to them, and using that as proof the entirety of the group is a lost cause and the definition of 'the enemy'. ****** The argument i keep hearing from those against trying to reach out to young men is always the same, too: "maybe they just like patriarchy more because they are used to it/it benefits them (and they don't care about the other arguments)". This was effectively what Big Joel said. But this argument is silly on the face of it. For one thing it ignores the very real fact that humans are social creatures. As such, social cohesion (and acceptance in a group) are objectively what we are all searching for - no matter what your views are. But moreover, it's an insane stance to take if you think talking about your views and opinions are of any value at all (which literally all these content creators do). --- Why would anyone become less religious if it's more beneficial for them to stay religious in our society? Even if they are already questioning of their religion, we "know" showing them that there's a community speaking to them outside of that isn't going to convince them of anything; being religious is the status quo they are used to and benefit from. And it's the community that they're already vibing with. Why would anyone become less racist if it's more beneficial for them to stay racist? Why talk about the benefits of immigration, or multiculturalism, or the solidarity you have with people of different races (either through class struggle or the base human experience)? It's objectively better for them to stay racist and it's the status quo that they are already used to. This also means (in a similar vein) that non-white protagonists would objectively be alienating for white people, because we "know" other shared values/problems/etc can't speak to them stronger than the privilege of whiteness already does. A thing i hope no one on the left believes! *** Either it's a waste of time to try and bring anyone into the left by speaking to their problems directly.... Or men (as a group) uniquely cannot be reasoned with in this way for sexism/patriarchy alone (even though those same exact men can be reasoned with for racism or religious zealotry in this exact way). --- PS: This isn't to say all leftists have to reach out to men and be part of the solution. But they certainly don't have to be obstinately part of the problem.

[@midnightstella7]

i wont lie i have to keep myself from hating men sometimes which is weird because i am also attracted to men almost exclusively men

[@Pistolita221]

It's so normalized, i'm honestly surprised you noticed.

[@de_showstep]

Get therapy

[@GriffithFromBerk]

In short, it doesn’t cater to toxic masculinity which so many men cling to for an identity. Young men have an expectation on them by the wrong people and when they fail to meet that they find an ideology that makes them feel confident in that false identity and doesn’t make them question why they are who they are

[@thekarret2066]

Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG; he keeps his politics out of it, but he provides some answers for a lot of folks, often with a male-heavy focus, in a non-toxic way; I think it might be worthwhile for you to speak with him maybe. ContraPoints and Destiny have talked to him, it'd be cool to see more lefties talk to him; I'd LOVE for Vaush to talk to him, too; but I don't think he would. Still, seeing more lefties talk to him I think could be really interesting.

[@Pistolita221]

I love HealthyGamerGG, he's a great example of the kind of the kind of examples the left needs for men. Vaush is great, too. I love Beau of the Fifth Column and FINN5TER, too. They all pursue their dreams and they don't revolve around women or unhealthy stereotypes, just self-actualization and how to be a good member of the community.

[@thekarret2066]

@@Pistolita221 Oh I haven't heard of the other two; got any favorite videos of theirs? :o

[@Pistolita221]

@@thekarret2066 Honestly Beau of the fifth Column: Let's talk about what men can learn about masculinity from women.... HealthyGamerGG: Is It Toxic To Hold Your Parents Accountable?

[@thekarret2066]

@@Pistolita221 I meant FINNN5TER as the 2nd one; I've watched a lot of Dr K, but not that specific episode! :o

[@Pistolita221]

@@thekarret2066 oh, i don't watch finn5ter myself. But from what I've heard they're a good person.

[@raymanpixar5699]

This is why I have nothing but indomitable hate and contempt towards the taboo and female on male as a whole!!!!! 😡

[@sophiepooks2174]

Is a lot easier if their was no judgement on a woman who makes the first move on a guy respectfully of course, unfortunately we still live in times were she could get branded as a skank or "easy meat" so many won't, for a trans woman even less likely to make a move as could get her bashed.

[@nicholasrice2933]

what?

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Why do men on the Left keep telling me that the Left doesn't appeal to men... in a video trying to make the left appealing to men, whose entire comment section is filled with men on the Left also saying the left doesn't appeal to men?

[@arcanineryu]

Many left wingers try very hard, and then fail with certain demographics of men, and it makes them upset and worried. As we're often keenly aware of how big a difference it can make in people's lives for the better when we put the effort in (mostly from lots of prior experience with suicidal friends and acquaintances) And then go out and try to learn how to better reach difficult men. Including by humoring the idea that they're doing it wrong somehow. Since helps to have that humility if you're preparing yourself for a change in strategy and ideology. So don't feel too bad about it. Might seem mean, but being upset by criticism is kinda just part of the process of compassionately hearing out criticism in good faith. As is making passioned rebuttles. And there's always going to be some vicious leftist infighting when there's lives on the line. And there most certainly are lives on the line when it comes to how to go about dealing with difficult men.

[@heyy1829]

i think "appealing to men" means "teaching men how to get laid and get money", topics which the left doesnt cover much

[@darman210]

We need one a leftist (or a-political) version of Kevin Samuels or Andrew Tate who offers helpful concrete dating advice to young men. But the channel should solely focus on dating/relationships… not intersectionality or socialism or “Latin-x vs Latino”.

[@joshuakhaos4451]

As someone who is still effectively a 90s and early 2000s liberal/Democrat, I have been 100% turned off by how liberals and the Democrat voter base are nowdays. Its all now so far left that I have had to leave. The Left has become spiteful and vicious to anyone who isnt spouting every little talking point they come up with. I'm still liberal, but I am sort of the last of my kind and have begrudgingly sided with conservatives and the Right simply because they at least can have a conversation about my opinions and generally not scream about how I'm a pos and whatever name they can call me. They just simply wont agree or they see my argument, but still think its wrong. As for the Left, I have to defend every position they deem bad(as they keep coming up with more things to label as bad) and they try to exclude me from their world. And some of these Positions arent even intolerant or were previously seen as bad opinions all that long ago. The lefts problem is really itself. The Left has allowed psycho's and freaks to run their faction and have made anyone who wont obey every new thing they push, an enemy and force them out. Good luck ever getting a left leaning or liberal version of Kevin Samuels or an Andrew Tate, The intersectionality stuff, race pity and even the constant bashing of men makes that a challenge for your side. And how do I know? I know many guys my age who are center left or moderate, or even somewhat left leaning. Turn to the Libertarian's faction or are like me, Siding begrudgingly with conservatives since they at least are willing to be accepting of us and dont treat our differing world views as hostiles. The Left has dug its own hole.

[@heyy1829]

tate offers (pretty bad) advice on how to get money and how to get laid, which are the two main problems of most younger guys. i dont think the left can do that, because they view the capitalist drive for money, or the view of men having to be the leading role in sexual encounters as fundamentally problematic.

[@darman210]

@@heyy1829 There are leftists who can better explain this, but being anti-capitalist doesn’t mean you hate making money or that you can’t coach people on methods of being financially successful. There are already several non-leftist dating experts who dismantle the myth of needing money to get a women’s attention.

[@JohnSmith-jv5xd]

I would consider myself a gym bro and leftist, whenever I go to political functions I do sometimes get if I am in right place. But yes the right has a monopoly on fitness culture it seems which is a shame. And no I never bring up politics at the gym because it either Fox News or Newsmax watchers, ugh.

[@aozf05]

Based take. The left definitely has a problem of only being self-critical to a point. Generally speaking, they're quick to point out the tribalism on the right but refuse to acknowledge that their own knee-jerk reactionary vitriol against men and white people is also tribalistic. People aren't taking a beat to breathe and think about things before they react anymore, and their instant reactions get audiences hyped up, which validates the bad takes, which only further entrenches them and then nobody is listening to each other or offering any empathy. This isn't only happening on the right and more people on the left need to realize this and course correct.

[@arcanineryu]

I mean, what do you think the left bringing up the topic and publicly arguing about how to deal with difficult men is, if not being self critical and attempting to course correct? Like do you think criticizing left wing stuff only comes from the right wing? Or that it transforms the talker into a right winger for the duration of the criticism? You're literally watching the left wing critique itself in real time yo. Congrats, your wish came true.

[@cruznix4741]

As some one who habitually participates in what leftist tend to believe are staunchly right wing spaces I couldn’t agree more!!!!! In fact I would go 1 further and state that leftist hesitancy around entering into these spaces stems from a bizarre viewpoint that I can’t help but believe is rooted in some kind of personal issue or projection.

[@arcanineryu]

I mean if by "personal issue" you mean being a lgbtq person or a minority or mentally of physically disabled, then yeah. I mean if you're straight and white and american you can usually exist in those spaces just fine. But that doesn't make say, a lesbian, have the same experience there as you. Or make them somehow weaker and less inclusive than a right winger, to leave those spaces because people thought it all hunky dory to harrass them. Like the right wing is very much not innocent when it comes to curating their online spaces to keep certain people out.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

I've been on both sides of the fence. I was a straight guy for 35 years and I've been a straight women since, and having hung around with the guys, as a guy, and seen how guys talk about women when they're not around, and having been on the other end, watching guys make seriously half-assed attempts to chat me up, I can say the only appeal of going right is pure laziness. All a guy has to do to get a girl is be nice, be present, and show serious interest in what the girl thinks and feels (edit: and from there there has to be some chemistry and both parties have to put in further effort). It's really not hard. Guys on the left put pretty basic effort in, and guys on the right expect an easy lay.

[@nicholasrice2933]

frankly, the refusal to even try to do better on the left comes off as laziness.

[@pr3cious193]

Wow thanks, you've figured it out.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

@@nicholasrice2933 Ok, define "do better". I mean there's toxic attitudes all over the place, not just on the left. What should lefties "do better" so that young men know they're just not going to get pussy handed to them on a plate? Again, I was a teen boy and a young man, and I ran in conservative leaning gun circles. I was pretty unimpressed with the general attitude of my friends toward women.

[@nicholasrice2933]

@@DrJaneLuciferian I think you have a lot of guilt and are projecting your insecurities onto this issue. if you are denying that there are elements of the left that are just outright hostile to men, then you are part of the problem. your "just be nice" advice is pretty much useless and is asking guys to be inert beings that take no actions. there are guys on the left like dj mule who do lefty content simply to get laid. i dont think thats a healthy attitude either. why are people like you so opposed to having guys like vaush talk about men and how we can teach men to be better? i think you still have a lot of conservative tendencies that are just being masked as left wing.

[@DrJaneLuciferian]

@@pr3cious193 Thank you, there's nothing like personal responsibility. Isn't that what conservatives say?

[@Nirakolov]

Personally, as a very old person I don't see how the left or right should or even WOULD appeal to a sex, race, other minority outside of tax coverage

[@zenmaster8]

im so tired of this drama. They literally see taking care of mens problems and get flashbacks to mra's of gamergate and dont actually listen to the arguments.

[@warnalmstek5448]

It's important to differentiate between "the Left" in USA (aka Democrats, Pseudo-Progressive and SJWs), the real Left in the USA (Communist party, People's party, some Greens or Independents), and the Left in the rest of the world (where it often means first and foremost "freedom from the death grip of US companies and the warmongery of the US government"). The first might barely appeal to male youths and corrupt careerists, but the latter two are quite often attractive to men of all cultures and age groups.

[@blondequijote]

Communism has a long way to go in the PR campaign starting with doing what the rest of the world left did to win which was becoming one with the people of the countryside. But Harry Potter freed a slave by giving him a sock and that’s where faith comes in. Because just as Harry Potter freed a slave, his magic sacrifice offers all of us free education at Hogwarts. If we learn to make the socks of our own salvation, we can cease the exploitative means of production all while we avoid alienation from our work and the finished product.

[@mechanomics2649]

I don't know how true this is given how accessible people and ideals on the internet are. For instance, what you call "the left in the rest of the world" describes many of those on the left within the US, just as there are those outside of the US who are described by "the left in the USA" and "the real left in the USA". I don't think it's very possible to quantify who belongs to each.

[@jed2746]

One thing matters: what leads to the best outcome. Now bear with me, this is a tough one. Should we: Take an empathetic approach, appealing to the underlying insecurities and how we can, not cater to them, but help resolve them. OR Treat them as unreachable and hope that we keep winning elections.

[@cc-bk3tx]

According to the left clearly option two is better with no down sides ;)

[@alejandrocalzadavera9881]

As one of the only big bulky gym bro leftys hat does MMA thank you Xan. 🥺

[@shzarmai]

hence why Left-Wing Male Advocacy is absolutely necessary

[@debanikgoswami4834]

We need left wing people on dating, fitness,self improvement niche . It's exactly where many boys fall into the rabbit hole.

[@broadcastbard]

I watched the Amazing Atheist video that talked about this issue and Vaush's interview. Their video frankly sucked. This one is quite a bit better at explaining how young men end up down the wrong path and is empathetic.

[@Kaidona]

The dorkiest part of me sees the issue and thinks "we should be telling people to take notes from songbirds." It's so stupid, but it's one of the most obvious demonstrations of how the rest of nature handles sexual partnerships while having similar family dynamics.

[@eddiekrustysock4395]

Shark, Xan and Vaush and DM are my new bread tube

[@pandorabryn]

Really important topic… please keep making videos about this. Eff the haters. They’ll thank you later.💙

[@foramoreperfectamerica8490]

I remember when I was fresh out of high school, I had a debate about racism with a person who was my friend when she lived in my town, but became racist when she moved to Montana. I'll never forget how she explained why she is racist and I am not. She said I don't have the same worries as everyone else. Ever since I've been wondering what the hell she was talking about or if she was saying that because I'm disabled(non-dominant side paralysis) I don't have the same worries as everyone else. She was in the military at the time and she has children, so I told her she was an embarrassment to the military and I seriously considered calling CPS on her as I think being racist disqualifies you from being a parent. Anyway, the experience has always made me wonder if the Right genuinely sees something very different than people on the Left do. Since then I have come across articles that talk about how people on the Right get grossed out easier because the part of their brain that controls their gross out reflex is bigger, same with the fear center of their brain. This has made me wonder if getting mad at them is moral since one could argue that they can't control their brain chemistry. Lastly, I do firmly believe that the only choice we have is to move the Right away from the Right through conversation.

[@Pluveus]

The problem with things like that, especially brain stuff is that we know so little about the brain and brain development that we honestly don't know if people are conservative because they have more developed fear and disgust centers, or if they have more developed fear and disgust centers because they've been submerged in fear and disgust. Even then, people are responsible for the actions they take because of their pathology. If someone commits a crime because of mental illness, they are still held responsible for that crime. Their mental illness sometimes _modifies_ the punishment, but it doesn't negate it.

[@foramoreperfectamerica8490]

@@Pluveus Correct and as i said we need to get through to them.

[@thekarret2066]

We should give them all ketamine or ecstasy so they can feel a connectedness with the world and be less fearful. We treat shit like Bipolar and ADHD with medication, maybe conservatives need some medication, too.

[@dragonslaya16]

Imagine liking men smh couldnt- Wait that is me 😔

[@ubuntujackson9133]

Can I just say something very very separate from the actual things he says? Okay, so this is some very weird choice of music. Is this because of a playlist he has in the background, or was this actually edited in? I doubt it was edited in. Any Xanderhal fans might be able to answer this.

[@spaceelfdimp4852]

I cant tell you how lonely it is to have the feeling that I'm taking up space being there

[@moonhand1]

bottom line is if we don't provide positive mentors and spaces for young men to evolve the right will, so a lot of people need to drop their judgementalism and hang ups and do what's best for the left as a movement. Good content Xan!

[@spaceelfdimp4852]

My mom is a progressive and has always had to work for everyone and everything in her life and at first o thought ot was admireable but as i got older the expectations fell on my shoulders if it was bad for my mom the expectation to work until you die is worse it feels like thats the only way that wokeskolds appreciate men is either creepy echo chambers or working until death no inbetweens

[@Nemo12417]

I think the real issue is that if you are a solidly left young man, there is plenty of great content for you if you actively look for it, but if you are anything other than solidly left, there is a maelstrom of billionaire funded propaganda that is actively looking for you.

[@timothytosser288]

Men 😳😋

[@DrHotWarLove]

Harris, I'm very disappointed and I'm going to express my outrage by expressing my outrage and moving on to impatiently waiting for your next video.

[@KrollRebuke]

Good stuff xan

[@arandmorgan]

Im a lefty and i hate what it is now, it used to be about uninons and workers rights. They've discarded that, now its about giving marginalized people, power. Now don't get me wrong, i want people to be safe and doing well, but interest rates are high and inflation is high, the economy is tanking. We've outsourced production, we've radicalised institutions, we've abandoned fiscal responsibility. It's not supposed to be this way, we should be fighting for socialist progression, not pandering to people whose feelings have been hurt. People are literally homeless and starving and suicide is killing men at an obsurd rate.

[@X60Gamers]

MRAs and Incels arent the same, btw

[@debanikgoswami4834]

Many MRA's get laid easily but incels can't.

[@DarthStuticus]

Its attitudes like theirs that started me down the alt right rabbit hole. People seem to want to hate on vaush becuase he's vaush instead of weighing each argument on its merrit.

[@imperatorvult]

whats with the loud background music lately :(

[@ninebrains4769]

Loss of status actually can be oppression, it’s just worded badly.

[@marocat4749]

I think as sense to not premature write off, everyone shouldlook deep inside where they were as teenager, and enough, either abit toxic or dark places. Not all but enough, Can we incentivice and let peoplw bloody grow out of that with a bit remindibg what no one likes, not respecting people, which womenare too. Given they are respected enough they can grow out of being inaproviate edgy. Also empathy gets taught by example, not moralizing. Like by example tike talking bout experiences and so good,moralizing only,no. Also yeah, selfhelp having more lefties there, or thenand there talking, like suris does sometimes that talking just stuff that should be natural bitisnt, that is good. And like healthier dudes are needed for equaloty too.additional, Btw ans expandme too, for male victims. Oh and ocean keltois video stream on masculiniry is good. And wolf the red on the channel. And the burgerkrieg video "men are emotional objectified" he tends to start very ranty to go deep, itsa great video that doesnt denounce sexism, just that , men too are denied that emotional vunerability validated on regular basis. He says it better. Also that dont be a dick and blame women, i think it was you deserve to have that emotionality and vunerability. And connection and feeling good in your skin and be less lonely. Dunno he does word it better.

[@ryri51]

Every leftist I know over 25 was a right winger first. I was a libertarian fascinated with neo nazi skinhead culture in high school. Then I watched one michael Moore documentary, got into punk music and quickly became a far leftist obsessed with the black Panthers. All these kids need is some rage against the machine and bell hooks.

[@tommytowner792]

Hold on a second, you try to look sympathetic about these issues but in a newer video you just used virgin insult towards them. Lmao okay grifter.

[@Alexandra-xu3si]

Please don't have this music next time. It is SO hard for me to hear you talking. It's nice and all but I can't hear you! Lol. Thanks X

[@DetailTherapyPodcastYT]

We can also be charitable to why the left is uncharitable, I feel like this isn't deeply explored in the leftist debate community.

[@newworldbro]

We need to normalize r/gangweed 😤

[@ryri51]

The majority of the Left is men though, and the vast majority of the KZbin audience for all leftie channels are also men. Ten years ago when I went to an anarchist conference there was such a lack of women someone asked if we were a men's club. My entire time on the left has been where a room full of straight white men keep trying to figure out how to get women and nonwhite people more involved. I do not think we have a lack of men problem but a general lack of everyone problem because our ideas are heavily propagandized against in all corners of society.

[@Khornelia]

Literally this. Demon Mama's take was right on the money imo.

[@nicholasrice2933]

the majority of all politics is men. we want more of them than the right has. women have rich enough social lives that they really can go without dealing with lonely and abrasive guys irl. thats why you see more of them online than irl. men don't and that makes them fodder for the right. part of what helps with the right propagandizing against the left is the behavior of people who insist we should do nothing to stop men from falling down the alt-right pipeline.

[@gur262]

Left tube emphasizes that it's ok to be feminine. That noone needs giant muscles or to be uncaringly stoic or whatever to be a man. Combine that with the odd extreme on Twitter and the right parading that around and some might get the idea that it's not welcome on the left to have chest hair, want to be one of the 5 buffest guys at the gym etc. It probably has to be pointed out. Bodybuilding KZbin/so media of course has its own problems with distorted body image and ped use- but there could be examples. Noel Deyzel is quite successful and does plenty skits appealing to young straight men , but some things about gymbros loving each other to a suspicious degree too. He casually came out as gay a while ago and it doesn't seem to slow his channel down. The only thing on left channels ever dealing with typical standard l male body issues that i noticed, as compared to quite a few things about trans issues, was experiences, was hbombguy dealing with the golden one. Didn't mock his fitness shtick per se, but basically showed he's surely not a fan of working out himself. The golden one- a fascist_ sure deserves mockery but. That's all i noticed so far. ...compared to that i think there's many far right grifters telling you how to be. To be strong and tough or whatever and how that would get you success. Lefttube says- if you are gay or trans that's ok. And that's fine. But that ain't addressing most of young men that are usually straight.

[@SidheKnight]

That's true, but it misunderstands the original point. It's not that "we don't have enough men on the left" , but rather "a lot of young boys are falling into the Andrew Tate/MRA/alt right grift, and the left is completely failing to prevent this", because the Tate types offer real advice and "solutions" to problems they have and are mostly unrecognized by a big part of the left. All of this stared because a bunch of 12 year olds were spouting Andrew Tate talking points, and when their teacher called them out, they responded "where's your bugatti?" If I was a father, I would be *horrified* if my 12 y/o son started spouting Tate's misogynistic rhetoric, and we need to do better to prevent that.

[@Kickiusz]

First LonerBox and now Hbomb, man, my favourite leftie creators keep dissapointing me on topics where it should be very easy to get a W...

[@darkranger116]

as a person who LOOKS like a cis-christian white male raised under conservative values, i fully understand that also, as an american citizen, it is my social duty to present the left in a way that encapsulates the other people, who LOOK like me

[@heyy1829]

good points but the music is so distracting and annoying, please turn that down or better off next time

[@cakenshake]

Where’s the tweet Xan showed here? I can’t seem to find it on my own

[@SunIsLost]

0:58 yea

[@Skidblanar]

Please don't kiss my mom Zan she's been dead for 6 years.

[@dontgivenoatall2536]

comment...... engagement..... im lazy

[@KnightofEkron]

Well you're not wrong

[@andrewprovencher3400]

As a man and a self-proclaimed leftist I don't quite understand your arguments, but good analysis I suppose

[@SunIsLost]

21:50 also, they think we propagate laziness and obesity.