Why The Reilly Method Doesn't Work

Mentorship: www.kristiannee.com/projects/...
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0:00 Introduction
0:08 What is the Reilly Method?
1:20 Why did it held me back
2:40 Reilly Method Weakness
3:40 Ad Read
4:29 How I started progressing
7:27 The end part
Ben Eblen's video: • I DON'T use the Loomis...
Tsvetomir Georgiev (3d artist who modeled the figure): www.artstation.com/cecoaliens...
Yoni Baker (Figure Model Reference): / bakermodel
#art #drawing #painting #sketching #podcast #characterdesign #conceptart

[@estel4president]

I was there at the beginning with Fred and when he presented the "Reilly Method", it was not this thing that "helps you draw". Fred taught us how to measure and observe objectively. The abstraction handouts were a advanced level kind of thing. It was so rarely used correctly. Fred used it to reveal a hidden level of rhythms that would help us tie together forms and design beyond what just measuring would give us.But the measuring still had to take place first. As the years passed and different generations of students and teachers would apply the mysterious Reilly method, it became to many, including you Kristian, a stumbling block because it wasn't applied correctly. I might be sounding vague here but that's the nature of it. It's like in martial arts. You might decide to study basic Karate. And as you get better with the forms of it, your teacher might come to you when you are ready, and give you philosophy of the mindset of combat that you can apply to the basic forms you have learned. Those philosophies are not a form in of itself. It's a way to see the forms from a more advanced mindset. Wether it's the Reilly method or the Loomis method (even more confusing to the beginner) these philosophies should come when they are ready to be understood. So, I don't agree with your title. It should have a "for me" at the end. Actually, the Reilly "mindset" when understood, works fantastic for drawing from imagination. Learning how all forms relate to each with rhythms can make a made-up figure or creature look observed. It's all in the application.

[@KristianNeeTV]

I totally agree, the Reilly method is a great form of drawing and I think most people aspiring to draw would get a lot out of learning more about it. I do think there is a dogmatic side to learning how to draw, especially for beginners, who get caught up in learning a single method as the only thing that can be used to make a good piece of art. Something like the "forever student" mentality where someone is looking for the magic trick or tool to become a good artist instead of exploring their own voice. Where I got stuck personally when learning the Reilly Method was using that as a strict map to getting a good drawing, and the rhythms as set in stone. I don't claim to be a master of it either, and there is still plenty I have to learn but as far as I understand the method it's much more of a "way of thinking" rather than a formula. As for the title, I also agree a “for me” is appropriate. The obnoxious title and thumbnail is more about my experience studying a specific method of drawing, and how easy it is to fall into the "forever student" mentality I remember hearing you once say something about "not thinking" about what you're drawing, and letting it be somewhat intuitive I feel like I started to understand that aspect of drawing a little bit better. Something like drawing from you head using the method to me seems a lot more based around having that intuitive understanding of it, and when I see students trying to apply it to that sort of drawing it feels more robotic. At least to me that's the case, but there are for sure tons of artists who use it creativity in all forms of work. Thanks for your thoughts, hopefully I didn't embarrass myself too much with this video lol

[@JH-pe3ro]

​@@KristianNeeTV I've noticed in my own study(which has taken a lot from a lot of different teachers, most of them here on KZbin) that the beginner tends to be attracted to step-by-step, constructive methods derived secondhand from Bridgman, Reilly and Loomis, and they are also popular with teachers on these platforms because they are easy to lecture about. But everyone also seems to agree that the conceptual knowledge is vastly outweighed by the tacit knowledge of muscle memory and observational ability, which does make it like sports or martial arts. In sports science the two forms of training that are now considered most effective are total isolation(one form, one movement) and holistic practice(playing the game) - everything in between is unimportant. And so, dressing up art exercises beyond the exact thing they are meant to isolate is likely to be detrimental for the same reason. Considering that, my single most common recommendation for all levels now is to strip studies down to blind contour drawing, the thing that appears at the beginning of *The Natural Way to Draw* and *Keys to Drawing* , and in many art classes. It removes all the intermediate steps - your eye moves, so your hand moves, and the feedback you get is not the *visualization* of your line, but what it *felt* like to move in that direction. That's as close as you can get to isolating the motions of drawing, I think. And therefore, it's probably the most effective way to gain familiarity with what you're seeing, make shapes intentionally, and start drawing the subject from imagination, even if it misses the conceptual nuance of forms, rhythm, etc. If your hand is familiar with making a type of line, you can start the image with that line, and then adjust it with the other concepts afterwards. I believe this tool is also discarded easily by students because a blind contour doesn't lead directly to a beautiful result, and yet it's unavoidable that if you want to draw imaginatively, you have to be able to make the motions intuitively, and you aren't led there directly through the abstract approach.

[@Faiza_Hassan]

I was thinking the same…. I think Reilly method is more beneficial for drawing from imagination … for live drawing you can simply observe and do pretty decent job … but for concept art you need a formula like Loomis or Reilly to get the proportions and rhythms.

[@dylanbadger4808]

Yeah he addressed all this in the video. The title was mostly just for views but he made all these corrections in the video

[@Die.Trying]

I always liked the quote from Loomis “To learn to draw is to draw and draw and draw”. Whether it’s Hello Kitty or William Turner it doesn’t matter so long as you’re drawing. Never get so caught up in the idea of it that you never actually take steps make progress. Loved the video

[@KristianNeeTV]

Thanks!

[@matthewdavis9437]

The issue isn't the method. It's your assumption that the method is teaching you the "only" or "right" way. So, you dug your own art trap. The Reilly method is fine. There isn't one method to draw the head. And as long as your result is an adequate drawing of a head, there's no "right" way either. The only time "right" and "wrong" apply is when you are trying to draw a particular person and it doesn't look like that. Or you're trying to draw a human and it doesn't look like that.

[@robertfarrowartist]

Yes, spot on .

[@NameIsDoc]

Reilly method is less about precision and more about a simi structural gestural feel. If you are predisposed to circles and curves in your drawing construction the Riley method can be used as a means of measurement, proportions and anchoring. Unfortunately it is not a beginner level technique but rather a different approach to go from gesture to structure. It is far looser then the Loomis method and often produces more organic lively endproducts with deviations from perfection. Which is common with artists that are predisposed to curves and circles. Once you understand the importance of your rhythms you can add it to your arsenal and exaggerate via adjusting the proportions of any particular thing. Due to how rhythms work it makes it so that you can get some anatomy and proportions correct despite the changes.

[@robertfarrowartist]

I think this method can be useful, but not when it's at the forefront of the artists mind. I think it can be used as a way of sometimes visualising forms, similar to Bridgeman, a sort of quiet reminder.

[@ochavezart]

It's like Jeff Watts said while on the Draftsmen show, "Springboard of a concept not just be a parody of it." Even in that interview he says about ripping off from the method. So it all comes down to the individual to make the process fit the person. And if it's working wonders, that's great, but if not, get rid off it, but not before you can borrow some ideas from it. Yes, it's a great method to draw, but not the end all, be all to rule them all. I use straight lines, and keep everything chiseled, and then come in with curves to give it form. It works for me, but it may not work for others. This is an interesting topic, and it can get more interesting if you are able to interview art students and what are their thoughts on the method they are taught at their school. That would be really interesting to hear.

[@derekcutsinger3511]

This was great reinforcement. I’ve slowly been stepping away from my Watts studies. It’s such an incredible and inspiring school, but every time I was playing and doing things my own way, and in a manner that felt more natural to me, I felt a little guilty, like I was doing something wrong But when I follow my nose, I generally enjoy the process more, and the results are improving. Great video!

[@KristianNeeTV]

Yeah, totally get it. I really love taking classes there, but feel it’s hard for me to deviate from that style while there. Doing different things has been liberating. And thanks!

[@MaximillianHemmings]

A very insightful message in becoming able to choose. Thank you.

[@musubi-bi]

i traced out the reily method once! but found only a couple abstractions intuitive, you just got to pull from what you like. Its true there is a lot more ways to abstract from now, i found myself appreciating different forms of art by keeping an open mind

[@rumpelRAINS]

Great video!

[@robertfarrowartist]

Also, i don't think you wasted your time using this method, you took it as far as it could go. There might not be any tangible results from it now, but when you move on and use different methods, you'll find It'll re-emerge !

[@jienel1221]

Thank you for this video. I'm at a point in my art journey where I just don't understand why my art is resonating with me anymore. This video has changed my mindset as to how I approach my study methods!

[@James-ip7zk]

Thanks Kristian, good analysis. I constantly reflect on this. I have learnt with Proko and artbooks from different teachers. My goal though is drawing comics and I have several artist from which I try to learn. So I find myself always trying to translate from this ”academic” approach to the type of storytelling I want to create. Something I miss in teaching is the idea of style. Thanks for your insights.

[@KristianNeeTV]

Thanks! Yeah the academic stuff is important, but jumping into what you really want to do is always more important

[@StanProkopenko]

James, dont wait for someone to teach you style. Look at a lot of art, study your favorites, and experiment.

[@MarkWhippy]

I really liked the way Jeff Watts showed the Riley method for heads on his online school. I found it really helpful and he did say it was meant to go hand in hand with the planes method. These days I don’t draw many of the rhythm lines, rather it’s just in my head and I just think more about the anatomy and some planes. I never found the Riley rhythms working for me with the figures though. For some it worked great but for me i think I applied it wrong and ended up making figures too skinny. But then I found Steve Hustons approach of opposing wave lines as gestures really resonated with me. But I end up using the waves as a similar principle to how the Riley method is used. I just don’t use all the lines in the abstraction. I do find the opposing triangles helpful if the figure is standing straight or in back poses though.

[@jascha9033]

Great video! Thanks!

[@fesbra]

what a great video. I'd love to do a react of this. Your take is so on point that's just right. Great stuff man.

[@KristianNeeTV]

Thanks man, really appreciate it

[@wudly9195]

Been practicing the really method for about 2 months. It just seems like it has too many unnecessary lines to remember. Like the rhythm line that goes from the mouth to the ear. Its supposed to help indicate the cheek bone / side plane of the head. But then.... why wouldn't I just draw a cheek bone? There are other lines that the method has you draw that confuse me as well. Its just confusing for me. But I have it memorized now.. and I use it because Ive spent so much time drawing it. But If I could start over, I would not waste my time on this method.

[@ratchetandchank8648]

Hey Kristian, I started drawing with the goal to draw like peter han, kim jung gi, and kopinski because it looked so fun and the art blew my mind. I like my atelier online classes, but im concerned that it wont help me draw from "imagination" and that I will be useless if I don't have a reference that I can rely on for measurements. Im not sure whether I should go all in on the atelier or split my learning between the atelier and some other course like peter han's dynamic figure sketching that would make me a better inventor. Its not that I think reference is cheating, but I want to be able to manipulate reference and build up a usable visual library. Any advice?

[@KristianNeeTV]

Hey! I think it’s ultimately up to you and whatever you enjoy doing. That being said, if I could go back and do things again, I’d for sure split my time between atelier classes and imagination classes. Or better yet I’d work on my own projects outside of classes. Karl, Peter, and Jung gi got so good by doing a ton of illustration gigs, and drawing on their own. If you’d want to talk more, feel free to message me on Ig

[@cristiangamesgames]

The part where you said about the students doing the same exercises a little bit better after years and years of training is so true. The more classical methods and academies cannot hold up to the rigorous workload and profound imaginative ability that is required in the industry right now. Gesture, lay-ins, long-form studies, etc. are all theories of how to do art that don't take into account THE most important skill of them all: Perspective. Perspective is what allows us to draw from imagination. It's what made Kim Jung Gi quite possibly the greatest draftsman of the last 30 years. It's what makes Dongho Kim an incredible draftsman as well. These theories of art are as outdated as classical pedagogy is in music. Kim Jung Gi showed us all that Jazz is very much possible in the art world.

[@KristianNeeTV]

Yeah, all the figurative stuff is just one skill among many that you have to have. Learning into having a wide variety of skills I think is the way to thrive as an artist nowadays

[@alexandertoro6984]

This is absolutely not true. Even Loomis takes perspective into account for his figures in his book and also teaches how to draw a figure inside boxes for placement in perspective. Every good teacher knows and teaches about this. Gesture Is just another type of training. If you only draw figures based on boxes and correct perspective, they're going to be stiff. You need to understand both and combine them, as most professionals do. They're not outdated, you're just being too rigid following the fundamentals, you must be creative when using them, they're not formulas, only guidelines.

[@cristiangamesgames]

Wrong, and in 5 years time, I'll prove it to you and the entirety of the world. All of those "types of training" are holding artists back big time. We should be teaching students how to draw from nothing at all, improvise and improvise and improvise. I was also wrong in what I said, as perspective is also just another "type of training" and is useless if not used purely from imagination. See ya in 5 years.@@alexandertoro6984

[@user-fw5cx5pq9t]

I really appreciate your comments. I have been doing different studies with Watts, from portraits to landscape, and I have come to the point where it all feels like drudgery and not inspired-it seems like a really good place and the instructors are dedicated, probably alot better in person, going to let go at least for awhile and have some fun

[@KristianNeeTV]

Watts is awesome! But like any school most of the creative work happens at home

[@JonasErik]

Nice video Kristian... It makes a lot of sense

[@menteirradiante1307]

olá irmão eu acredito que todos somos uma bolha onde colocamos o que gostamos e o que não, as semelhanças nos atraem e as diferenças nos afastam, o certo é que ninguém cria algo do nada, nós seres humanos só podemos manipular o que existe, assim creio que devemos usar as técnicas que nos são mais familiares, e dessa junção criamos nossa própria técnica. todos nós tiramos nossas ideias dos reinos animal, mineral, vegetal e por fim do reino hominal que é nos espelharmos nas experiencias de nossos irmãos. vejo cada pessoa como um ponto de vista e isso é o mais fascinante, vamos seguir nos juntando e misturando. obrigado pelo vídeo, abraços e tudo de melhor no seu canal.

[@indoor-adventurer]

Been doing art for 3 years now, and was stuck in study mode. I draw every day but couldn't put my finger on why I'm not "disciplined anymore" when it comes to doing exercises. Few weeks ago I went to figure drawing and instead of taking my usual newsprint+charcoal, I went with a sketchbook and my fav ballpoint pen. On top of that I didn't actually draw from observation, I was kinda following the pose but I would cut off their limbs :D , exaggerate proportions, add animals etc...was basically cartooning instead of trying to copy what I see. It was super liberating! I'm still in the process of figuring out how I want to draw, and it takes courage to draw what you want and not just grind the fundamentals, but it definitely feels more fun!! And I mean fun is the whole point of doing this art thing, right?

[@KristianNeeTV]

That’s an awesome story! Yeah a lot of being a good artist is moving past purely doing exercises and moving towards what comes naturally to you. A breakthrough for me was seeing Eliza Ivanova’s figure drawings. They’re a lot more experimental than you’d expect

[@Kyrbos]

Awesome video :D

[@Random_Guy_On_The_Internet2023]

I've had this similar issue with the loomis method. I didn't have an intuitive enough understanding of form when i tried it as a beginner, so it didn't yield better results than with symbol drawing and i ended up quite discouraged.

[@KristianNeeTV]

Yeah, I think every method has that pitfall. The longer I draw, the more I do it intuitively

[@Leo-hu3lp]

Hey there, can you please tell me which filter you used to get the figure into the black and white version at 1:09?

[@KristianNeeTV]

If you go into photoshop, use posterize on an image

[@Leo-hu3lp]

Awesome thank you Kristian

[@oscarthebarbarian9673]

Nice clickbait title, haha, great work man, you are such a good presenter, wish I could make videos like this. Brilliant video bro!

[@KristianNeeTV]

Haha, thanks dude. And you totally can! Just takes practice

[@baj5763]

You seem to suggest in this video that people practice / use multiple methods when making art, instead of just using the reilly method. Your title is therefore misleading -- this video is not a criticism of the reilly method. I think you should change the title to "why you shouldn't only use one method of drawing" or something equivalent so as not to mislead beginning artists.

[@Klosterliv]

Hey, just felt I should point out that the model at 0:51 is by Tsvetomir Georgiev and is miscredited

[@KristianNeeTV]

Thanks, I’ll fix that

[@olivernesh1706]

this video is good stuff about art and progress

[@henrylazaga]

depends on your objective. if your aim is to create detailed anatomy then methods like reilly, asaro and loomis are very helpful even for some stylized art like anime and cartoony characters. but if your aim is just to create abstract and free-form art then these methods are not necessary.

[@KristianNeeTV]

Totally agree. Video is more about diversifying your skills

[@abhedpatil7822]

Their pencil which they use in watts atelier etc are very thick in texture when pulled on paper and makes the linework also the rendering very bad....😢😢😢

[@AhmedAldoori]

Thanks for sharing!

[@KristianNeeTV]

Thanks homie

[@Cyranowan]

Um what? Use it all the time and is better than loomis especially in foreshortening.

[@CaboLabsHealthInformatics]

I prefer the Loomis method

[@eonratslear981]

Robert Hen-rye

[@user-uj7pm2fk6p]

I have one of his (Reilly) books ... It sucks

[@sonnyankau9239]

how to not comprehend the reilly method and then make a silly youtube video about why it doesn't work because you don't understand the point of it.

[@KristianNeeTV]

;)

[@samankucher5117]

hmmmm

[@bozoclown2098]

Bridgman suck too ;

[@bozoclown2098]

In so many ways it's poop

[@KristianNeeTV]

@@bozoclown2098 I actually really love Bridgman, it’s complicated to understand but the more I look at it the cooler it is