Why the Spirit C1 is Already Obsolete

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[@ShadowOfHistory-wn1xh]

By flying A1 I can confirm that you don't lose engine when you lose wing. It's still unwieldy, especially in atmo. Rest of it is pretty much spot on, Zeus is some astonishing powercreep.

[@marcuswynn89]

Powercreep indeed

[@luvit579]

I'm planning to melt A1 and get a Zeus when it's available. I still like A1 and would buy one in-game but the Zeus looks amazing.

[@marcuswynn89]

@luvit579 if the A1 doesn’t get much needed buffs I will be melting my A1, the A2 is much better in all aspects

[@Spork82]

@@luvit579I did that by melting A1 and using a warbonded Fury to CCU to a Zeus and use my credit from A1. In the end I got the A1 back because it’s the loaner for the Zeus line.

[@luvit579]

@@Spork82thanks! i didn't realize the A1 is the loaner. i think i'll do the same thing now 👍

[@wyattstueven]

I loved the look of the ship when it released as a cutty competitor. They then increased the size by 10-15 meters in length, didn't increase shielding, weapons, and didn't give it a turret, now I have a corsair sized ship with 48 SCU of storage and now there is a Zeus that triples the shielding and storage capacity while still retaining the turret. Such a MASSIVE power creep that just completely outclasses all the other ships in the series.

[@_Saracen_]

If there's one thing I've learned about ships in this game is that there will forever be yet another ship released down the line that's faster, tougher and with greater firepower. You're better off just focusing on looks, utility and what role you intend it to perform.

[@pete3198]

Not true at all. The Zeus has major weaknesses, and it's combat. With only 2x S4 gun hardpoints the Zeus has the equal-2nd weakest offensive loadout in it's class. The loadout is matched by the 400i (also 2x S4) and only the MSR (2 x S3) has a worse loadout. BUT The 400i and MSR make up for their lack of offensive armament in other ways. The MSR is fast enough to outrun almost anything in the game. Even the fastest light fighters in the game (Gladius and Arrow) cannot catch it. The only ships that really can catch it are dedicated racers like a Razor / M50 / 350R or a Herald - and none of those are really any threat to the MSR. The 400i isn't quite as fast as the MSR. At 187 SCM / 1250 AB it cannot outrun light fighters - however it's got an extremely strong hull (80,000 HP) and a large shield (100,000 HP) so even the strongest light fighters are going to have a hard time chewing through. The hull is probably strong enough to take the hits while the pilot switches to quantum mode and escapes the attack. If he comes across medium sized ships then taking the hits will be harder, but that is mostly a moot point because against almost any medium ship the 400i is fast enough to flee. The problem for the Zeus is that it doesn't have either of those benefits to compensate for its lack of firepower. The Q&A already confirmed that it's going to be slower and less agile then a C1, so it's not going to have the speed to flee combat. With only one extra S2 shield it's also not going to have the durability to be able to sit there and the hits. And it doensn't have the firepower or agility to face the opponent head on. For the Zeus it really seems like the best approach will be to try to compately avoid going in to any areas that are likely to result in combat. It's not quite as defenceless as a Hull A, but it's realy not a ship you're going to want to be taking in to combat if you can avoid it.

[@MrWilhelm76]

2xS4 means 2x ad4b means very big fire power. The C1 can only mount Mantis and runs out of ammo in an eyeblink@@pete3198

[@krispcode]

I think they'll balance the spirit or the zeus. They try to not make half the ships useless or at least compete with eachother

[@aguspuig6615]

They can always tweak stats, give the Spirit way more fuel, better armor, or way better atmo handling wich would give the wings some purpose. It still feels crazy that the cargo capacity is so different when the ships the same size, and the Zeus doesnt even look like a brick like the freelancer, so idk how its so space efficient

[@Yurikan]

The stats on the C1 are going to change since all the ships prior to the Zeus mk2 are on a different system, so likely it's going to be balanced properly. Most likely, it's going to get a second shield or some other change.

[@marcuswynn89]

I hope you’re right I’m a crusader fan boy, I want to see them to be able to compete

[@MersageSW]

It might be get a second shield I hope, but they can't just whip up more cargo space; the whole ship design would have to change.

[@Yurikan]

@marcuswright441 The C1 most likely will be cheaper to get in game and probably work better in atmosphere. It's built off a small passenger jet frame rather than the zeus being based off an exploration shuttle frame. I'd still say that at concept pricing there is no reason to choose a C1 though.

[@shadowlordalpha]

​@@marcuswynn89I believe they mentioned this at citizencon as well where the Zeus wad the first and slowly they will be going through the others as well

[@shadowlordalpha]

​@marcuswright441 no but you can make it more efficient and more speed

[@isaiahheffernan5726]

The devs had said the Zeus can carry more cargo because rsi allows the grid to take up the entire rear and you are unable to access any of the components if it’s fully loaded

[@marcuswynn89]

They said this on spectrum I didn’t see anything about it during the presentation

[@Dracounguis]

Okay so just don't put a box where you need to get to the components. (Whenever that gameplay is actually instituted.) You're still going to have a hell of a lot more than 46 SCU to use.

[@DanakarEndeel]

That felt more like a weak excuse and just shows how stupid their other ships were designed with all that wasted space around the cargogrid. It also wouldn't entice anyone into buying a Spirit C1 with just 48SCU when the only time you need access to components is after combat and most enemies will just keep shooting until you blow up while we don't have enough time to repair anything during combat. So CIG really made the C1 obsolete before it even came out imo. Heck, just look at the Vulture for another example of bad ship design. It has a second egress point at the front but instead of allowing cargo to stack on the entire hold; they have a stupid walkway in the back eating up 12SCU. They should have made that entire area into a cargogrid imo for a full 24SCU instead of just a mere 12SCU. During the Q&A they even said that they could easily increase the cargo capacity but they never did.

[@kaltenp7870]

if engineering gameplay becomes that convoluted that i have to access components that often, I and I suspect a lot of other people wont be playing so it sounds like a weak excuse to me

[@Dracounguis]

@@kaltenp7870 I expect we will just be shooting repair lasers just like medical gameplay.

[@wun1gee]

I think the 48 SCU that's listed is going to end up being wrong. If you look at the renders, the interior render shows 64 SCU on the cargo grids. 4 rows of 8 stacked 2 tall = 64 SCU. Apparently there was a time in the ship's conceptual stages where it was only 35 meters long and not 47. I would like to believe that the 48 SCU figure came from that earlier conceptualization. But the renders we got when the ship went on sale show 64 SCU in the cargo area.

[@marcuswynn89]

Well 64 is still less than 128 I think to compete it should at least be close don’t ya think?

[@wun1gee]

@@marcuswynn89 I think the Spirit was more meant to compete with the base Freelancer and Cutlass Black. The Clipper is more of a Freelancer Max competitor. At 64 SCU it's right there in the same ballpark as the base Freelancer while hopefully being significantly faster. It NEEDS to be faster than the MSR. Like in the 1300 range. Then, with 64 SCU, it justifies the single shield generator and lighter weaponry than it's contemporaries.

[@marcuswynn89]

@wun1gee here is my point in terms of size the CL is the same size in length as the C1 the Connie is also a medium freight ship, so for the size of a C1 I can get a better ship that’s smaller than a Connie but that is also in the same class of ship

[@Dracounguis]

Sure would be nice if CIG got their s*** together before selling people things. 🤦

[@wun1gee]

@@marcuswynn89 You can already do that with the Freelancer Max. The Freelancer Max sort of created this half-way stepping stone between the Freelancer base/Cutlass Black 'segment' and the Constellation Taurus. The Clipper adds to that segment, not necessarily the Cutlass Black/Freelancer base segment, which is where the C1 is. It's been said for a long time that if you wanted a Freelancer you might as well spend the extra little bit and get the Max, which is a lot more ship for the money. Now it's the same thing with the C1 and the Clipper. Unless the C1 does something outstanding (which it doesn't) you might as well just bypass it's segment entirely and get the Clipper. The only ship in the C1/Freelancer/Cutlass Black segment that stays secure is the Cutlass Black. Nothing else does what it does for $25 more. The real problem with the C1 and the Freelancer base are that they're completely obsoleted by ships that are only marginally more expensive.

[@ethantyler4711]

What program on the left side is he using? I'd like to use this to study my own fleet more

[@ViniciusConsorte]

Wait until cargo weight influences the ship handling and you will be amazed how valuable a MSR will be with "just" 114SCu and those monstrous engines. Not to mention flight surfaces control and lift with wingspawn and overall shape of the ships in atmosfere, and on shielding department... more shields when you go to NAV MODE to try to run, shields are down.... as a cargo ship, if you try to stay and fight youre dead no matter your shields anyways. I think Zeus CL will be a better option to space and the C1 for atmo enviroments. At present i have a C1, will wait for it to launch use some time and have a ccu ready to the CL or ES. Maybe it go or not, from the spirit variants i believe the one i will stick for good is the E1.

[@marcuswynn89]

Still a good point you made, I’m a guy who likes to take advantage of people running cargo doing all of that hard work for me. I see a C1 flying caro and it’s easy pickings because it’s slow and has very little shielding. Get yourself a clipper to protect yourself better from players like me

[@EFSpartan]

Speculation on cargo weight influencing flight.

[@serenedevil6798]

@@EFSpartan That would only make sense in atmosphere.

[@MaticTheProto]

The Zeus has a lifting body design…

[@shakes525]

You nailed my thoughts exactly when I saw the Zeus. I'm still conflicted tho, as the Zeus seems to conflict with the Connie which I believe is the first direct conflict we've had in a manufacturer's lineup. I like my connies quite a bit, and I think it may come down to ease of ingress/egress and how manageable the Zeus is to land on rough terrain.

[@marcuswynn89]

Zeus does have a low profile which is a problem I have with the spirit A1 because I can’t tell if I have my landing gear down or not

[@kyleobryant6150]

Connie has snub, better quarters, bigger components, better turret arc compared to the ES, more vehicle options for the cargo bay, bigger pilot weapons, and vastly more missiles

[@mustrumridcully3853]

@@kyleobryant6150 Compare the Taurus and the Zeus looks far less interesting - the Other Connies are cargo limited.

[@needy3535]

​@@kyleobryant6150 too bad the connie is bugged to shit though. melted my c1 for it, and after like a day of trying to do mail delivery missions i remelted it and got my c1 and a roc back lol

[@elitegenesis1583]

The Hull B is also in this class. 384 Cargo is planned for it. It's not as pretty but when unloaded will probably be the smallest of them. Downside is can't really run cargo from the ground but it's about the kind of cargo hauling you want to do and what kind of gameplay you want to have. Just something to consider. Edit; The loaner for the Hull B is the Hull A which has 64 cargo and can land. Just wanted to put it out there.

[@math1103]

C1 has VTOL and great profile for atmo. It is her main strength imo.

[@johnboyd9713]

I hope so? IDK the Spirit's flight profile was a huge disappointment for me. Might be disappointed with its control surface atmo flight too.

[@Blkstang82]

What is the program thats being used to compare models?

[@jedi_drifter2988]

Verity is the spice of life, so the more ships, the better off we are. The C1 series will be used for MPC don't forget.

[@yrovie]

What ship tool are you using to view and compare those ships?

[@Loopyllu365]

what website you using in this video to have the ships side by side

[@marcuswynn89]

Starship42.com

[@artsolano6762]

Update C1 has 64 SCU, not 48 SCU as originally advertised. C1 is a better solo ship than a Zeus. More pilot controlled firepower. While the profile is bigger top and bottom view, the C1s profile is smaller where it counts if you are attacking or running. Its smaller up front and from the rear. The C1 has a few more SCU than the ES Zeus. C1 has a size bigger tractor beam. C1 also has 2 more missiles. Not melting my C1 but I did get a Zeus.

[@jjeung624]

You are correct. Bought all 3 spirits. But when the Zeus came out, ccu all but the passenger variant. And I'm not sure if that one will survive?

[@marcuswynn89]

I will melt my A1 if doesn’t get buffed

[@ArtemisTGM]

What is the tool your using for these model? I'd like to see what can fit on the RSI Galaxy Cargo lift 💯

[@conasca]

I’m a Crusader fan, and I have to agree. The Spirit series looks so good, but much less utility for the size. I have an E1 so hopefully they don’t release something to make that one obsolete too. To compensate, I think the Spirits should have the biggest fuel tanks in its size range by landslide.

[@marcuswynn89]

Someone else in the comments was saying the wings have fuel as well

[@rampant54]

There has been some chat about what the ST stands for on the missing 4th Zeus. Some think it could be "Sports Tourer" or something like that. I hope they don't make it a competitor to the E1

[@DanakarEndeel]

@@rampant54 A "Sports Tourer" sounds questionable as it had the same amount of turrets as the bountyhunter variant. So if anything I suspect a combat variant with stealth capabilities. 🙂

[@Admiral_Grufus]

@@rampant54 it's racing. when the Zeus page was first up, they had a racer tab. you couldn't click on it, but it was there

[@rampant54]

@@DanakarEndeel Yeah Super Tanky 🤣or Super Troll

[@Dracounguis]

I 100% agree. C1 is DOA. I also wish you would have put the MSR on the screen too. While it is bigger and does something else eventually, it's cargo capacity is similar. You would think Crusader can't do as much in a smaller footprint, but the C2 is actually fairly compact.

[@DanakarEndeel]

Yeah. Heck, the Mercury is a complete joke now. Only 2xS2 shields, it consumes fuel like crazy, then CIG nerfed its agility too; while suddenly giving several other ships higher speed so they can now easily overtake it. So it can't fight and can't run anymore either. It doesn't even have any escape pods for the crew; just a bunch of useless tunnels that cause the ship to look like a bloated whale. I really hope that they give the Mercury at least a S3 shield and 3 escape pods; as well as a second egress point near the cockpit. I also wouldn't mind it if they just remove those pointless tunnels so that the ship can be made sleeker while giving it its original maneuverability back. I also wouldn't mind it if they completely rip out the interior and make something else as the current interior makes no sense. Buckaroo_banzai made an awesome interior with rounder corridors that looked awesome and made it look more like the Millenium Falcon or Ebon Hawk. That was a ship interior worth having imo. 🙂

[@Dracounguis]

@@DanakarEndeel we've had power creep but the Zeus is excessive power creep. When you can flat out point to a bunch of other ships and say they are pointless.

[@DanakarEndeel]

@@Dracounguis Yeah, most of the time it was pretty subtle and people still had uses for the older ships but this Zeus is on a completely different level and just made the Spirit C1, Freelancer series, and Cutlass Black plus Blue pretty much obsolete in one fell swoop. I mean why bother with a Freelancer, Freelancer Max, or Cutlass when you can have a Zeus CL; or why bother with a Cutlass Blue when the Zeus MR has more shields plus EMP&Snare while the Blue only has the Snare. Now the Blue might have more prison pods but that just makes it a prisoner transport instead of a bountyhunting ship imo. So yeah, that Zeus series is by far the biggest and most obvious powercreep to date.

[@mrdot1126]

didnt they say during the ship talk, that they will throw out the current gimbaled weapons size is 1 size smaller thing, so now there wont be a step down compared to the fixed if you chose the gimbaled version?

[@tysonburns9535]

Good video, good comparison, just one thing...I need a medium cargo ship that can carry a Cyclone TR or Ursa Rover like the Taurus or the Freelancer Max can. What vehicles will fit in the Spirit and Zeus?

[@marcuswynn89]

seing that height is not an issue for the c1 i suspect you could maybe get an ursa inside, it will probably be the same for the CL

[@karl1801]

If the door on the C1 is the same width as the door on the A1 (I'm pretty sure it is judging by what we've seen of the C1 so far), an Ursa will definitely not fit. A Fury in landing orientation barely squeezes into the A1, and will not fit with the wings folded out - the Ursa is about the same width as the Fury with its wings unfolded. To confirm this I tried putting a Lynx into my loaner A1 and it didn't work, as the wheels stuck out past the width of the A1's door.

[@tysonburns9535]

@@karl1801 I just found a video where someone was able to fit a STV and a Cyclone but the Ursa is too wide.

[@Knightstruth]

The Spirit looks sooo cool though. It's really kind of a tease. I wish they made a bounty hunting spirit. For what it's worth though, the spirit/Cutlass/Freelancer still have more pilot controlled firepower than the Zeus so for cargo running you pay less in wages for the crew.

[@kylethemaddr2607]

So, i don't expect the Zues to be slow by any means, but where crusader has always shined is in maneuverability and speed for its class, that is the case with all of their ships up to this point. I expect the spirit will be more easily maneuverable in both space and atmo, as well as have a higher top speed, and faster acceleration compared to other ships in its class.

[@marcuswynn89]

I don’t think it will be slow in a straight line, I don’t think it will handle as well as the C1 though

[@kylethemaddr2607]

@@marcuswynn89 oh, I don't think the Zeus (CL) will be slow by any means, just that the C1 will be even faster. Then there's the hidden (ST) variant of the Zeus which I expect to be a racing/blockade runner style ship, likely with lower cargo space(I'm guessing 32-48scu) but speed and maneuverability exceeding that of anything else in its class beside other medium racing/blockade running ships. This would make the C1 kind of an in-between for those 2 Zeus variants. Still a respectable 64scu of space along with great speed and maneuverability for it's cargo capacity.

[@DanakarEndeel]

Well, maybe we should remind them as they nerfed the maneuverability of the Mercury into the ground and then made several other ships much faster than it too. So now the Mercury is undergunned, undershielded (only 2xS2 shields?? WTF??!), and can't even run anymore. Heck, they didn't even give the Mercury any escape pods for the crew either.

[@kylethemaddr2607]

eh, i still love the msr, still fast in a straight line and still decently agile for it's size. maybe i'm just bias?@@DanakarEndeel

[@DanakarEndeel]

@@kylethemaddr2607 Well sure, I still love mine too as it's the closest thing I can get to a Millenium Falcon or Ebon Hawk. However, I truly hope that CIG will give it at least a S3 shield and place both 3 escape pods and a second egress point in that empty tunnel behind the cockpit. The Hercules has an identical tunnel behind its cockpit but there it has escape pods for the entire crew. So here's hoping CIG just wasn't finished with all the internal assets yet when they made the Mercury. All the other Crusader ships seem to have escape pods or ejection seats; even the new Spirit had beds with escape pod functionality. So here's hoping. 🙂

[@kendan1839]

CIG could go with an increased cargo hull size on the C1 to allow more SCU. (either height or increase it's length.) They did that with the Max (wider than base freelancer) and Taurus (longer than an Andromeda/Aquila)

[@marcuswynn89]

They could for sure, I was going off as it currently stands on their website, and to be honest I do want the C1 to get some buffs so it can compete

[@kendan1839]

@@marcuswynn89 Another part that hurts the Clipper Zeus is it's components are blocked off and rear ramp not accessible from within the ship if maxed out on cargo. You have to drop your SCU down to about 80scu to still have access to the components for engineering, but ramp is still blocked unless you remove enough boxes. C1 always has its components and cargo ramp accessible from inside. So there is a risk with the CL not being able to access/repair your components if maxed on cargo. If the C1 was allowed to place cargo on the center floor it would bump its SCU up, as the C1 has its cargo placed on the sides of the ship. Though if CIG did this, they'd have to include a second entrance on the C1 like with the Zeus, as a lot of crusader ships are only accessible by the rear ramp.

[@mr.e432]

So here's whats majorly different between the two based on what ive researched: 1. The c1 will be faster and more manueverable than the zeus 2. The c1 is solo friendly with all its guns on the pilot, with co pilots only really operating the tractor beam 3. The vast difference in superiority with the shields and cargo space a zeus has in comparison to, not only the c1, but all similarly sized ships indicates that zeus is the new standard for medium sized ships. That doesn’t mean the c1 will be buffed soon or anything, just that i believe all ships of this size will be buffed eventually So to me, they both have different roles to perform and arent as directly comparable

[@WhiteJackale-ei1dn]

Imagine how I feel about the super hornet I got years back.

[@averybowles5953]

How can they fit 2.5 times the cargo in a ship about the same size as the other?

[@marcuswynn89]

Video game magic

[@JeremyCRunge]

You gotta remember that one is still in concept phase and that we will not see it for quite some time. I own the C1 and picked up all three of the Zeus concept variations. I did think about just upgrading the C1 to the Zeus CL but decided I would take a chance and keep the C1 (for now). Sizes change and the fact that one is a 2, the other a 3 people makes a difference and I just wanted a smaller one as a daily driver so thats why I kept the Sprit.

[@NoradNoxtus]

exactly, how is everyone forgetting the fact that the c1 also had a size increase, the same must happen for the zerus as well. the dimensions do not match up with the features lmao

[@wolftooth6678]

Thanks for making the video! I heard on discord recently that the devs will be (slightly) upping the SCU capacity on the Spirit. We don't know how much but it's assumed to be 60 to 70 SCU perhaps which is almost double. It's a bit ironic though that the Zeus currently has an A1 Spirit as a loaner. I assume this means the loaner for the CL will become the C1 Spirit (when released) which will be...interesting. I do think the C1 is in need of a major buff though mostly in the way of defenses. I find it odd that a Civilian adaptation of a military vessel has such terrible shielding...

[@marcuswynn89]

Spirit is almost useless, I heard it’s a bug and it will be fixed but I haven’t seen anything official

[@IyadHamouda]

Awesome clarification, thank you for the video, What website is that ?

[@intothevoid2046]

The C1 is my man ship. It actually made the MSR and the Corsair obsolete for me.

[@sandwichninja]

Out of curiosity, why do you like it better than those other ships? What does it specifically do better than they do, or is it just a personal preference? I haven't flown any of them yet btw.

[@nolan6137]

I'm aware that this ship has its issues but there is one thing that becomes apparent to anyone that looks at it. It looks absolutely amazing with an ultra clean astetic.

[@burakyarar1883]

Good points, great content. Glad I found you. better late then never. what is that software you use to compare ships by the way? Thats a great tool

[@marcuswynn89]

Starship42.com

[@burakyarar1883]

@@marcuswynn89 Thank you Sir

[@marcuswynn89]

@burakyarar1883 you’re welcome

[@johnboyd9713]

Only hope for the Spirit is that they make it handle like an avenger just like the MSR handles like a ship one size down. It would just be SUCH a comfortable daily driver even if it would still be inferior in combat (but still good enough to do PvE). 64 SCU that is as agile and fast as an Avenger while also being a physically bigger target seems like a compelling way to balance it. The cutty has weaponry and versatility, the lancers and zeus have tank, and the spirit is speed and comfort.

[@marcuswynn89]

The A1 struggles against an NPC

[@johnboyd9713]

@@marcuswynn89 Yeah. I mean it should be ABOUT as good as a cutlass. But she ain't gonna be dodging any incoming fire and doesn't have the regen pool to pop things quickly to compensate. The A1 is a military ship armed worse than a freelancer. My hot take is that every single medium ship they've released has been wildly undergunned. The lancer should be the baseline for civi ship (and is better gunned than any spirit variant when considering regen pool and before looking at the MIS). The Cutlass, which is military from concept, but is also smaller and less shielded than most mediums, is a good baseline for military medium ships but also, despite being smaller, laughs at the A1 too. The A1, I think, is why the whole spirit line sucks. If they made the Spirit good, I think they were worried the A1 would be oppressive in ground ops.

[@findern2arm62]

You summed up the minimum number of people for larger ships perfect, I had to explain the same thing to an org leader who though he could 1 to 3 man an idris with blades for the guns...

[@marcuswynn89]

Tell him I said good luck hitting anything, I think medium ships and light fighters will dominate when engineering comes into play

[@Alopen-xb1rb]

@@marcuswynn89totally agree but won’t that will hurt the big ship sales. AI should be somewhat capable or a lot of ships will be obsolete for all the solo players.

[@Nianfur]

I can see CIG adding extra variables for cargo. E.g. Refrigeration / Heating, liquid, weight, living / organic, volatility... Where some ships will have cargo functions that allow for those different cargo types. Perhaps the Spirit is better at carrying flora and fauna?

[@marcuswynn89]

or just regular stuff like ore and refined quant

[@Nianfur]

@@marcuswynn89 Either way. I can see there been other variables that will matter for cargo, not just scu.

[@sunsetcarson7913]

Thanks for the analysis it really makes me think about how I want to play

[@epyonrsi8829]

@Marcus Wynn - Well that all depends. Is the C1 faster? Does it accelerate to top speed faster? It will fly better then the Zeus in atmosphere. It will also have m ore protection on the sides when you trying to hit the subsystems if the angle you are trying to hi them at is protected by a bigger wing or engine. In conmpareison the C1 might be better in other way then the Zeus. Shields are not that important when your getting swarmed anyways. Realistically Your better off with the C1 if you want a over faster ship with top speed. And you have to sacrifice weight to do that.

[@_S3ryus]

One thing that all overlooked is that the C1 Spirit Plays in a another pricecalss than the Zeus itself. The Zeus is in competition with an Freelancer Max and plays a new role in the priceclass ov 150$ +. However the Spirit C1 is more in competition to the Freelancer and Cutlass Black In the pricerange of 100 - 130$. Becouse when i see the stats the Cutlass and the C1 are Realy Close to Each Other. Both have a cargospace in the 40s Range, only the Freelancer have more Space with 66, C1 and Cutlass are equal in weapons and missles. And when i look on the IAE Page from the Zeus than that pricetag is in the pricerange of the Freelancer Max. We all know that CIG makes the Warbond Prices a little bit cheaper than the ship will later cost. so thats my sight of the things both Ships play in an Different price class.

[@CodeBlue18]

It still astonishes me how they end up making these decisions, they should have seen it from a mile away. As it stands right now I'll likely never use the C1 upgrade and just take advantage of the price increase in a future CCU chain. Also I'll probably upgrade the RAFT to the Zeus CL when the final specs are available. But honestly I just don't see how the CL can hold 128 CSU when its cargo hold is maybe 50% larger than the ES one judging by the concept art.

[@marcuswynn89]

A lot of people in the comments are talking about how they are in different class of ships but my point is this if I can get a medium freight ship that’s roughly the same size as medium cargo ship for me it’s a no brainer, and the benefits in shields alone make it more worth it

[@CodeBlue18]

@@marcuswynn89 I have no idea why one is cargo and the other is freight, they are both freight ships in my eyes. The Hull series and the RAFT are cargo ships which have their own significant drawbacks. Either way, both ships will transport goods and do little else, the slight difference in handling and cruise speed won't make up for carrying 2.5x less cargo.

[@TaranTatsuuchi]

She's still a beauty. I don't want anything larger, and none of the other ships that would fit as a multi daily. And even if it's the same size, requiring a larger crew makes a ship not really good for a solo player. And smaller ships seem like they'll not have enough capability to perform multiple roles. The larger wingspan could give it the excuse to have much more fuel capacity than other ships. Like real life planes store fuel in the wings. Could make a nice little explorer I think.

[@marcuswynn89]

That wouldn’t be a bad idea but more fuel equals more weight and that could be an issue when the weight of your ship matters more

[@14sianj97]

What website does he use for the comparison ?

[@SaladDays83]

The A1 is very maneuvrable, not sure if the C1 will be the same but i think this may be an overlooked benefit of this ship type.

[@marcuswynn89]

pitch and yaw is slow, but it does fly smooth

[@Callsign_Prophet]

Not every ship can be "better than its competition" that's impossible. However I do enjoy it when competing ships have a weakness the other compensates for. The C1 will likely end up having more range after balancing and easier component access as RSI kinda just blocks them when it's cargo is full.

[@Dracounguis]

I melted my A1, bought a Cutter Scout (warbond for the LTI), then upgraded that to the Zeus with the store credit. And I still have an A1 to fly until it comes out. And saved $10. 👍

[@aldodelarosa]

Thank you for the video. I'll be changing my pledge from the C1 to the Zeus. In the meantime, hopefully I get the C1 as a rental when it comes out.

[@marcuswynn89]

Zeus rental is the A1, I know this because I have the MKII MR

[@Paga969]

If you need a ship for transport Composants large or capital, stuff for your base , it’s a perfect ship

[@TONOCLAY]

What program are you using

[@EdmundRobinson]

I suspect that with VTOL the C1 will be able to lift more weight from ground to orbit than the ZCL. Commodities have kg/SCU info in the terminals that is not currently doing anything. I think C1 is a heavy lifter in non-zero gravity (like the bigger C2) and ZCL is meant for zero gravity hauling. When lifting heaving cargo from ground the ZCL would not be able to take off with a full load.

[@rampant54]

The 4 x size 3s is good on paper, but with the really bad capacitors, you get very few shots. Obviously we don't know the charge size on the Zeus. But at present it could be like strapping on 4 x bolt action rifles to your ship with 5 round magazines as compared to having 2 x slightly bigger calibre Semi-Automatic with 30 round magazines. I'd take to 2 x semis anytime.

[@marcuswynn89]

Spirit weapons are like flying a gladius lol

[@MersageSW]

I think the main balancer is that the Zeus on release will go up in price to maybe $175 and the C1 will go to around $130. The Zeus CL clearly outclasses the C1, but they are in two different price tiers.

[@D4rk_1nfinity]

i think on their side more money is always a plus but on the player side its good to have a variety of ships to choose from even with some that ultimately do the same thing as existing ships

[@DanakarEndeel]

As soon as I saw that Zeus CL, I saw how it completely obliterates not only the Spirit C1 but also the Freelancer and Cutlass. Heck, the Zeus MR is already a much better Cutlass Blue. But yeah, it looks like only the A1 bomber and E1 VIP transport variants seem to be viable while the C1 cargo variant is effectively obsolete before it even came out. So unless CIG gives the C1 more cargo, more speed, more maneuverability (especially in atmo), and give it back that defense turret; it will be dead-on-arrival due to the Zeus.

[@jakridings4718]

One nice advantage of the C1 is that the tractor beam turret will be able to see inside of the ship so the copilot can load cargo without ever having to get out. The big wings should really help its flight in atmosphere too. Other than that, the massive cargo size and other specs of the zeus is insane power creep at the current concept price.

[@vonrosphe3098]

Don't forget the VTOL engines on the Spirit. Also helps this ship in future. And no one knows how good the handling of the Zeus is. Maybe the spirit is much more agile and faster. Much to early for this kind of videos.

[@jakridings4718]

Yeah absolutely, I hope it does all shape for the ship to have its own strengths. The buff to 64SCU of cargo now is nice in itself.@@vonrosphe3098

[@axelmousti5812]

C1 have wings for atmo, zeus wings are 10% of the C1, Zeus have no Vtol, is roaring EM and IR emissions, it's a lot heavier, has tiny thrusters. The C1 allow you to easily trade from surfaces to space station, you trade wherever you want, the zeus can do it too but it's gonna be cheap to do it with a C1 it's build for it. Ships have niches aside their primary focus. The C1 have wonderful days ahead of him, the zeus is just another freelancer max, but it's pointy, it's a cosmetic purpose only. It's like ou don't compare the Merchantman with the Hull D.

[@LMarshall73]

Quick correction - the Taurus only has one turret (the bottom turret is replaced by a tractor beam station). It also only has 24 S2 missiles. It doesn't have the deployable missile pylons like the Andromeda. It also has 174 SCU of cargo, so it outclasses the other ships in the comparison by a fair margin. That being said, The Andromeda does have two turrets, 24 S2 missiles, 28 S1 missiles, and 96 SCU of cargo, so its classification as a medium freight/gunship holds up pretty well. The Andromeda also has over 180k hull HP, with only the Hammerhead, Hull C, and Retaliator having more.

[@alvinsin9711]

actually the zeus is definitely gonna be bigger when it is released into the game, look at the graph of its interior and compare to the A1, 3 pilot seat in cockpit and 3 more section in the rear. Put it in the A1 and you will see it’s impossible to fit, I expect the zeus will be somewhat in between the conni and the A1 else you have to be 5foot tall to live in one

[@marcuswynn89]

You’re right it should be around 55m and not 46m but if it remains the same the it’s a bargain

[@rcastanheiros]

I guess will not, because they’re already in whitebox as was showed at citizencon

[@S1leNtRIP]

Appreciate your vids! I thought the same thing when I saw the Zeus. Invalidating the Spirit AND my beloved DUR in one fell swoop.

[@explodogames2774]

As a RSi fanboy , I prefer the C1 . I prefer the speed and design of the C1 i really like where that tractor is on the C1 . For me the C1 is competing with the cutty and the cutty is what I call the trash can . I hate the cutty . The zeus is just pointless . I already have bigger better haulers like the reilen and msr . I'll keep my C1 , and my reilen and let the zeus go . Ill keep the c1 for my solo daily and the A1 for my solo daily ground mission stuff. If i need more cargo ill go with something bigger than the zeus

[@marcuswynn89]

Well the A1 has a slower top speed than the cutlass and I don’t see the C1 having a higher top speed than the A1

[@explodogames2774]

@@marcuswynn89 the A1 has way higher acceleration which is vital to escaping atmo with someone incoming . We can only assume for now but expect the C1 will have this advantage as well . The only thing that possibly would make me consider this change is the shielding 🛡 which is also something thar helps survive . For me with all these ships it is about surviving . I think people look at top speed more than accelerations and they don't realize if you have a slightly higher top speed but i can get to my top speed much faster and to qt altitude faster im gone and they get you instead . I think about that because fighting isn't an option in any of these really .

[@explodogames2774]

@@marcuswynn89 thinking about that tho , with master modes the shields won't even matter trying to run it doesn't seem like . I don't know , you aren't wrong but for I think the C1 works best for me . Unless the zeus ends up being high accelleration when it is ingame . If it is faster in both ways yah i could see maybe i would make that change. I don't know i melt ships all the time lol

[@thestamper]

The devs stated ignore the zeus stats of 4 s2 shields etc, since its the first of the new ship rebalancing. All ships are going to be rebalanced and have redundant modules etc. As per the cargo space you can fill it up but no module access.

[@varthelm]

When the C1 was the same price as the Freelancer and the Cutty Black, I didn't think it was quite fair to compare it to the Zeus CL. After they raised the price..its getting fair to make the comparison and find the C1 wanting.

[@Verinia]

Great video. One consideration in regards to utility is planet-side tasks. For example, transporting goods from mining module to manufacturing module, or running around with a ROC in the trunk. I think people are under appreciating VTOL for these purposes, making the Cutty Black the best ship in the category for this application. Further evidence the C1 is not really good at any of it, but would likely be better than the Zeus CL in a direct comparison. I think it gets more complicated if the C1 had VTOL.

[@Phantom089680]

Wait Bro, whats that website that you use there called?

[@marcuswynn89]

Starship42.com

[@dabush6380]

I think they have the scale of the Zeus incorrect like they did with the Spirit when it first came out. It would also make sense with the shield as well.

[@dkphantomdk]

I do think that most people now a days completly forget about people s feelings and wants.. - it doesnt matter what stats a ship have, if the player likes the ship, if a player is happy using the ship..

[@PelenTan]

You didn't include the Corsair. I know it's classified as "explorer" class. But it's cargo hold allows it to hold much more than the C1 can. The C1, soloing, can have a total of 96 scu if you back in filling the walkway with a 32 scu crate. With everything I've packed into a Corsair, I've gotten close to 200 scu. Including 3 32's.

[@BillyFrench]

If the c1 flies like the a1, I'm going to use it. I think the c1 will handle better than the zeus. It already handles better than it's competition. We'll see

[@marcuswynn89]

without a doubt

[@tanx0r]

The C1 is faster in atmosphere and over moon surfaces than the Freelancers and Cutlass series so that's a big pro. It also has around twice the hull HP of those other ships so can take a beating. Lastly, it also has A LOT more hydrogen and quantum fuel than those other ships. Fly whatever you see fit though. The C1 is a fine ship imho and a great addition to the game.

[@seeker_rodan3113]

My biggest thing is there is no way the Zeus MR is gonna remain 170 minus the obvious increase from concept to complete. More and better offerings compared to the A1

[@marcuswynn89]

The cutty blue is only 175 I believe so I don’t see going up too much if it did then you’d have to make the Connie more expensive

[@seeker_rodan3113]

@@marcuswynn89 guess it's another case of weird pricing

[@simonm7590]

Good commentary and I instantly thought the same once I heard the SCU of the Zeus CL. I think there has to be a reason to be faithful to a brand so if Crusader ships use their bespoke amazing engines as their selling point over other ships then let that be a reason to opt for Crusader ships; perhaps they perform better in difficult environments and heavy gravity planets in the future? However, I think the A1 has a unique role but more accurately the E1 will be essential for any passenger carrying entry level work. So maybe just the C1 for now is outclassed before it’s released. That said, everything changes and expect huge balances in the futures 😵‍💫 totally want to see your face off with the Blue and the MR

[@Prich319]

The C1 has full pilot guns, and can be effectively crewed by a single person. The Zeus may be better armed, but you need a crew to use it optimally. I also suspect the C1 will have lower operating costs. Overall, the C1 will be a better ship for a solo operator.

[@myrchantkobold8268]

There is a difference, when you look at some of the newer mechanics coming to the game. The zeus has many more components which means much more upkeep and risk of fires etc. Once ship building is in the game your rep will determine what you build. Crusader rep means your limited to crusader ships which makes the C1 a stepping stone to the C2 not a contender to another brand really. Zeus is a stepping stone to the galaxy. Then it comes to in game cost, C1 most likely will be much cheaper in game and easier to outfit and expendable.

[@marcuswynn89]

This is also a good point which I had not yet considered until now, however by your own metric everyone should be manufacturing drake ships because they are cheaper. Cheaper doesn’t always mean better. These ships will be in the verse before that style of game play exists.

[@myrchantkobold8268]

@@marcuswynn89 That is always the way. We have reclaimer years before you can reclaim anything. Bombers before there is bases to bomb. I try not to look at things as they are but what the overall idea is. You would need rep with Drake to make drake ships and do those missions. Depends if Drake is in pryo or not right. Some people won't want to make that trip and do those missions to get that rep.

[@DJDrLandWhaleOfficial]

The Zeus reminds me of a larger version of the Pisces, and I love that about it. I love the look of the spirit but it’s way to wide for me. I upgraded my OC LTI a1&c1 to a nautilus and galaxy. If SC gave the Spirit a slightly larger hangar I might have kept it.

[@Chase_The_Calm_Gaming]

Same thoughts I have regarding the C1. It's nice people have choices though based on aesthetics. I can't stand the Connie series at all but love that it has such a fan base. Kinda cool we are getting similar models from different manufacturers. I'm an F150 guy and Rams are Connie's to me lol

[@marcuswynn89]

I think it will be a general sentiment unless they make changes, I think some changes are likely but hopefully vídeos likes this can drive that conversation forward

[@Spork82]

@@marcuswynn89hi, I’m new to the channel and enjoy your content. I’ve recently gone A1 to Zeus MR and got the A1 back as loaner. I’m really disappointed in Spirit and had hoped for better. I also picked up a ES since I really don’t think anything larger than a cyclone will fit the cargo ramp width. I’m curious about the app you used in this video. Could you provide a link? I use the compare tool all the time but the app you’re using is way beyond that. Appreciate you and hope to see more of your content.

[@Max_Flashheart]

I have a Spirirt C1 and now a Cutlass Black to Zeus CL CCU because the CL has so much more cargo, shields and Pilot guns - and as a vehicle transport it looks like you carry more small vehicles and larger ones the spirit cannot.. Might CCU the C1 to the Zeus MR with that super cool and Dank Dark mat paint.

[@nataliesantana3309]

I think the potential advantage of the Spirit might be the in atmosphere flight (larger aero surfaces) and the VTOL engines that are attached to the tips of the Spirit's wings. If the wings DON'T help with atmospheric flight, if the wing tip mounted VTOL engines don't add value, then yeah, you're right. I can't fathom why anyone would get a Spirit over the Zeus (currency cost difference aside and that assumes the Spirit is the cheaper of the two). I think the 400i is worth being added to this conversation too.

[@HighmageDerin]

In regards as to why the similar size yet the C1 seems to have less cargo room than the new zeus. I would assume it's because those bulkhead doors between the ramp and the cargo Bay probably don't exist on the zeus as well as the dividing between the component room and the cabin. If there's no bulkhead dividers there they can probably have just one big long cargo room all the way up to the cab. It may be obsolete by other people's standards but I'm enjoying flying my sea waterway I don't think it's Hard to fly on all though those wings do extend pretty far out for some of the landing bays. I Don't really have that big problem threading the needle. I have not been in combat with her yet but I did get shot at my an MPC ground base but drained my Shields down But never managed to impact the hull.

[@davidforinash2950]

The Zeus is designed for habitation where the spirit is a dedicated cargo ship. Zeus has radar capabilities too. So its a all in one with cargo deficiency.

[@namenloserflo]

There are many things they can do to balance it out. hp, engine/thruster power, weapon size, component size/count...

[@JaviArt12]

I looked through the comments with no luck. Can someone tell me what's the app or web he's using in the video?

[@case1737]

Completely agree sadly. The entire Spirit line is lacking defensively (you want some defense in a daily driver) but the C1 has absolutely no upsides except possibly looks compared to the competition. I would say though that it is very important that AI blades and NPC crew get introduced before the engineering gameplay gets implemented.

[@marcuswynn89]

I could agree with that, if that happens I will be very pleased

[@DanakarEndeel]

Yeah, in my opinion CIG should have never changed that turret on the C1 to a tractorbeam. Practically every other cargoship out there gets a tractorbeam for free *in addition to* turrets. So imo they should have simply added a small tractorbeam above the loading ramp and let it keep the turret. Now you have a 2-man ship where the second person does nothing most of the time as they can only operate a tractorbeam (which the pilot can easily do themselves). The Spirit C1 feels like the ROC-DS all over again with forced multiplayer tacked on.

[@ikkeheltvanlig]

Comparison of Connie and Zeus - The Taurus has a larger cargo capacity (174 SCU vs. 128 SCU for the Zeus), making it more suitable for hauling larger quantities of goods. - The Taurus is armed more heavily than what is known about the Zeus, with size 5 hardpoints and a substantial missile payload. - The Zeus is expected to have better shielding than the C1 Spirit, but the Taurus also boasts a large shield generator, which may put it on par or better in terms of defense. - The Taurus can operate with a single pilot but is designed for a larger crew. - The Taurus is less maneuverable, which could be a disadvantage in combat situations, especially against smaller ships. So the Taurus seems to be a more cargo and combat-oriented ship, potentially offering more versatility in terms of operations it can handle, from hauling to some degree of combat. The Zeus, while having less cargo space, might offer better performance and shielding, making it potentially more suitable for high-value, less bulky cargo runs where agility and defense are priorities. This all depends on the final balancing of the Zeus (and Taurus for that sake), but from my point of view, I don't see why I'd "upgrade" other than novelty

[@DismayingHades6]

it probably has to do with the awesome looking but terrible functionality of crusader design language, a good one to point out is the absolute waste of space in the C2 side and middle section being unutilized along with the cool looking arches that make stacking 2*2*2 boxes a pain in the ass, i feel like we'll see the same faults with the C1 as well

[@marcuswynn89]

Crusader ships has too many doors even the A1 has too many doors

[@DismayingHades6]

@@marcuswynn89 that too, I suspect it'll be less of an issue once you can have full control of all the ships doors and compartments but until then ships like the MSR are ded to me lol

[@nickeling2776]

Nobody knows what Zeus will be like. It becomes less agile than the C1, so it becomes a rock, as an example. You can't compare an existing ship with a ship that only exists in a dream.

[@cygnus6623]

After flying the A1, I am only more excited about the C1. The Zues does not change that. The Zues will not be as maneuverable as the C1, nor be a daily driver. That said, the Zues for $135 is a great deal for what it looks to be...might still get one. Might be the replacement for my Corsair...

[@marcuswynn89]

Don’t forget there other ships that have a higher top speed and better acceleration than your C1 and it will likely be weak until they add armor into the game. So just be careful out there

[@davorlucic4873]

even though it is already kind of obsolete, I still think it is important to have multiple ships that are pretty similar with slightly different up- and downsides just for variety sake. not everyone is going to want to min-max their performance, some just want to fly something that they like and find cool, which is totally fine :). I'd get sick if I were to see the same 1 or 2 ships all the time

[@stargeezer8427]

Good video. This is an unfortunate symptom of the fairly long and relatively open development; newer concepts are often arguably better if for no other reason that CIG is consistently experimenting & learning as they go and since they sell these things along the way, we can make pretty direct comparisons between them.... The old advice still holds true though, "Never buy a ship based on stats", and I would say that also includes ship dimensions, weapon/component sizes, cargo capacity, etc. Instead focus on the role you want to play and pick a ship that does that job from a manufacturer whose aesthetic appeals to you.... Just be careful getting addicted to the shineys; you might wind up with a Black, a MAX, a Zeus MR, a Spirit A1, a Taurus, and a Valkryie to name a few, like some other nutballs I may or may not not know very personally. ;P

[@papascronch]

the Zeus made me think that the spirit was pending a component buff, beyond that i'm hoping that when stealth and other component driven mechanics come on line that the spirit can effectively be more of a smuggling ship than its competition. I also do heavily question if the Zeus is going to have some movement quirks post master modes that make other ships in its class more appealing. first thing off my head that makes me think master modes and flight model changes are why this makes more sense than we realize, is that the ships that have VTOL in this class are both smaller cargo bays in general(spirit and cutlass). The spirit being able to hover better than the Zeus (provided the CL actually has no full on VTOL thrusters that rotate or kick in) would still solidify it's place as a tractor beam ready ship set up to recover lost or found cargo, rather than force it to compete in taking it From A to B safely which is where the Zeus would shine. in terms of a pledge i would think the Zeus is the better choice objectively for the money, but i don't think the Spirit is actually dead like people think. It may have had a poor release timing, but I honestly think it was a ship built with the new flight model and component reworks in mind is all.

[@convolutedconcepts]

The C-1 is classed as medium cargo while the CL is classed as a medium freight.

[@marcuswynn89]

😎

[@SYSRQLLQRSYS]

what site is this?

[@seanathandanger1650]

I had the C1 and upgraded to the Zeus CL - basically for the all the reasons you highlighted here. Turns out they give you a C1 to fly around until the Zeus CL is ready haha.

[@tecnoblix]

I bought the C1 basically for the Crusader asthetic but this side by side makes me pause. I'm going to wait and see but I'll melt it in a hot second if all remains the same.

[@marcuswynn89]

Same I will melt my A1 if it doesn’t get much needed buffs

[@lunch7553]

They should add a ton of fuel in the wing, make it super long range than any other ship

[@sterlingdennett]

Maybe the Spirit C1 is faster, and more maneuverable? This could be true, especially in atmosphere, with its wings assisting as flight surfaces. Didn't CIG say flight surfaces will matter in atmosphere? Maybe the Zeus MKII CL will handle like a brick? Maybe more of their attributes will change as time goes on, like crew size, armor plating, engine power, component sizes, etc.

[@dcashio]

I really like what you doing! Thank you.

[@marcuswynn89]

You’re welcome bro

[@NoobieNetcode]

the reality is, nobody realizes the shape archetype. its delta wings vs blended wing body which enables far more internal space. If the spirit had the same design, it may have had even more than the zeus.

[@Cheesebread42]

IDK if if will be the powercreep, I agree the Zeus is a no brainer for pilots who want to maximize cargo space but it's probably gonna handle more sluggishly with lower speeds and more armor than the C1 and it's unclear (and unlikely) that it will have the same range/same QT speeds. The c1's stock QT is silly fast, you're getting your SLAM and Widow sold ASAP.

[@austin.t5557]

So my thoughts on the C1 vs Zeus CL its a little more complex and layered. Especially when looking at each manufacturer's method of ship utility. When I saw the C1 I never saw it as "there was a new cargo ship", I saw a support ship to the larger C2. Yes the C2 is a great cargo ship, But it's often brought into the conversation more so for its Supply, refueling, and restocking capabilities for ground. This is likely due to the marketing material and additions like storage bins. At this point, it's too early to say if the C1 will have Bins, but images of ground support in the marketing also make me feel like the direction here is more toward resupply and less as a straight cargo ship. Now the CL for sure is a pure cargo ship, and yea for sure as a dedicated cargo ship, it has the leg up. but if you are someone with an org, that already has multi-larger cargo ships like the C2, or Caterpillar and you're wanting something that's going to be an ADDITION to those I think the Spirit would be the better option. Beyond the fact that the Spirit is a 1+1 vs a 2+1 crew. The Spirit would be cheaper to operate due to fewer or smaller components. The Zues is easily the better small group of friends/solo players daily driver I think that could be said for all of them. For me the bigger flop is the Conni and the Zues, especially both coming from RSI and both being 150$~. The Conni has more SCU, and while having fewer shields the Conni has always been a tank so unless the Zeus also has massive hull HP it might be a tit-for-tat

[@Exav2]

Say what you will about the size, but the Zeus a competitor to the connie not the cutlass. The base Freelancer and Cutlass Black are what the C1 is supposed to be compared against and you wouldn't tell someone not to get those because they can get a Constellation, Freelancer MAX or a Zeus. There's always been those two tiers of medium freight, and the C1 fits in the lower band, while the CL fits in the upper band.