Why The Upside Down Is Stuck In 1983 | Stranger Things Season 5

[@MichaelJaeYT]

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[@Hdttc710]

Give me a cookie

[@Sdavis5]

thanks 4 da cookies

[@earvinawodah4036]

Very good cookies did mom make em?

[@Ethcat1s-soundeffects-ethcatvr]

Thanks for cookies

[@wojurera3131]

I don't care for Vecna, like at all, he's so contrived, and I hate that they killed Billy, so yah, the show lost it's way in so many ways for me.

[@TheMojaveCourier]

It’s safe to say the upside down never actually formed into Hawkins until the day Will went missing. This is why it’s frozen on that day and it’s also why the upside down was nothing but lightning and such when 001 was first sent there.

[@GamerChesz]

Howd you do it before the video was made

[@TheMojaveCourier]

@@g3eneralz382 what are you guys referring to? I know I’m not on patreon lol

[@CaptionClosed]

Yeah, no shit, the question is WHY?

[@drewskiwest5284]

One said he traveled through multiple dimensions... he has his own pocket dimensions. the "upside-down" is only linked to eleven and will But One created a lot of shit, as time moves differently through different realities. He even discussed this...

[@gxsttvo]

you just literally repeated what the guy said in the video, and what everyone already knows...

[@mutotoru]

Another (terrifying imo) theory that I've read regarding Will's role in S5, is about their very first DnD campaign in episode one. Someone noticed that the first campaign featured a three headed dragon, and Will The Wise took the lead and tried to save his friends but perished at the end. During the car scene in S4, Will portrait is featuring the OG team fighting a three headed dragon. What if the Mind Flyer, previously shaped by Henry, will take the shape of a three headed dragon by Will, in an attempt to use it to fight Henry, but it'll backfire and it'll kill Will instead?

[@TheMetroidblade]

Or… because will isn’t a trained user, he DOES succeed in doing it and saving his friends but the strain of using powers in such a way takes a toll and leads to his death?

[@ineffablemars]

Nah

[@simplemuncher4578]

That would be pretty cool. I think since El isn’t part of the portrait I think she’s represented as one of the heads on the dragon, along with vecna and the mind flayer as the other two heads. Maybe she turns evil in the end or gets captured and used for her powers

[@keenanicole23]

The three headed dragon is actually another creature from the D&D world and Nancy saw another creature from the world when Vecna showed her the future… when she said there “so many monsters” and talked about to the monster with the “huge gaping mouth”. There she is talking about a Thesselhydra. There are three Thessel monsters and they have multiple heads as the “dragon” Will drew in season 4. That is also the character you’re referencing from the first season that had multiple heads - that was a Thesselhydra. So there will definitely be new D&D creatures in season 5. It won’t be Vecna taking that form, but likely new monsters entirely we haven’t seen before.

[@jensscholz]

well, i really hope they don't let him die, because to kill off the gay in the group so that his non-gay love interest can be with his girl would be a terrible eighties trope.

[@buckgrasser8728]

It's because will is a dungeon master, they always point to this in the series. He is a master at creating worlds and when he was pulled into the upsidedown his mind defensively created something familiar. Also making him important to vecna. He even at times in season 3 and 4 pushes the characters like a DM would to make choices or notice things around them.

[@bhatfield1417]

He's a master of art and emotion if you want to go that far but he's just not the DM

[@BlaxJakx]

Basically will is the architect of the version of Hawkins in 1983 the day he went missing. If he can create a copy of his world in the upside down then this is why he was used by vecna / mind fyler as a seeing portal in Hawkins?

[@jae1302]

mike is the dungeon master any time we see them play on screen, will plays a wizard named will the wise

[@TheMilkyBarKid3]

But Mike was their dungeon master? Will was a wizard… he only attempted to be dungeon master in season 3 because no one would play with him

[@vasttrance877]

I thought Mike was the dungeon master though?

[@cirdthebird1276]

I think that when eleven made physic contact with the Demogorgon and the portal opened, the two dimensions folded into each other and the upside down was created. It was replicated into a darker version of Hawkins. That is how Nancy’s diary is there and all of the things will could have never known.

[@IgnacioRuz]

wow never thought abt that before, it really could be like that cause it explains everything that we don't currently know

[@Solar_Minecraft]

For anyone who says Venca got trapped in the upside down before, you can see that it’s very different than when will got trapped. So it may be that the dimensions merged, as the upside down when will was trapped looks like Hawkins, but Vecnas upside down looks nothing like the lab, or any of Hawkins.

[@divinesoulgts6142]

Bro that’s the best guest about the upside down I would be so mad if he didn’t mention this in like a part 2 or something

[@foxymoon7860]

But that doesn't explain why it's still stuck in time

[@fennecmoon]

Nice one!! But then how did the ABC letters on the wall get sent to Will, if everything was frozen in time there anyway?

[@natedg78]

When someone is brought into the upside down it leaves a imprint of places familiar to them and since the upside-down is stuck in that moment of time it's the places as of that time. Luke for example Nancy's dairy was imprinted there because Nancy was there. There was no Nancy's diary before she traveled over. Same with the cheerleader girl imprinting Munsons trailer right before her death scene. Everyone from Barb, Billy whoever has imprinted anything they know about Hawkins into the upside-down building it piece by piece since the start of the show. Eleven being thee 1st to make contact imprinted the Hawkins lab since that's all she knew

[@Urfavouriteperson107]

That is actually so cool. That’s a great theory

[@UltraFG5488]

@@Urfavouriteperson107 Would that mean places like the the Munsons trailer would be in a later time?

[@UltraFG5488]

@@Urfavouriteperson107 Also I hate to be that guy but if this is true wouldn't Nancy's diary be locked on the day she went into the upside down?

[@Urfavouriteperson107]

@@UltraFG5488 your very right and I agree. This theory sounds very good but now that you mention it there is a few flaws

[@jarredmarques9660]

@@Urfavouriteperson107 Not if the time is stuck in 1983 therefore who ever enters it imprints their memories from 1983 only. Vecna hates times so it makes sense that anything after 1983 is null and void

[@jpage78]

From all of season 2 and into season 3 the show made two very consistent points 1) Mike can break Will out of any trance he goes into when he feels the upside down/Henry (other than when the mind flayer possessed him). 2) Will has a need to protect the people he loves anywhere up to sacrificing himself (again they point this out consistently since season 1). Remember, Will did Morse code for "close gate" likely knowing that it would kill him if they did (thanks to Joyce that didn't happen). I think season five will bring Will's love of Mike as his "hero" and Will's need to protect his loved ones full circle. Will clearly has some sort of extremely buried telekenetic powers and while I'm not sure how they will resolve it, I feel like season five will center around Will, Mike and Eleven after the entire town of Hawkins gets absorbed by the Upside Down.

[@jamesgarcia7478]

It started with Will and it's going to End with Will. He is the key to the intired thing. That is why he still has some sort of Attachment.

[@kazourple]

i really hope he doesn’t have to die to end this all otherwise i will cry my eyes out😣

[@apro5393]

It started with eleven and it will end with eleven

[@iloveanadventure]

@@kazourple dont worry, if he does die just think about how he is alive and well in real life 😁 thats whtat i always do when my favorite character dies

[@misschocolates]

@@apro5393 Stranger things definitely started with Will, but Eleven was involved longer then when she was even introduced.

[@apro5393]

@@misschocolates it quite literally started with eleven opening the portal causing will to get taken. The show couldn’t happen without eleven but even without will the show could still happen.

[@HAWK_6155]

I could see Will having a moment near the end of season 5 like Neo at the end of The Matrix: he comes to grips with and fully understands his powers (possibly building towards it through the season), and suddenly it "clicks". He pushes back through the connection, fighting Vecna for control of the hivemind to distract him while the others track him down.

[@kylemcw8301]

Will slipping into the upside down was a metaphor for him “Slipping into himself” & all the monsters coming through the gates are also a metaphor of him “Battling demons coming out” from within himself. I feel Will is and will “Come out” as Gay in season 5 & that is the reason the upside down is stuck on that date!… That was the moment that Will realised this about himself. My Theory. The upside down is actually. The inside of Wills mind. Once he learns how too deal with his feelings and open up, He will seise too have trauma!… He will Evolve! & That is the point where I feel the upside Down will crumble and fall! 👍 I can’t wait for season 5 too see if I’m correct. However. I think you could be right! Maybe Will coming too terms with all this could indeed give him powers that are superior too 011 or 001!? Either way. Season 5 is going too be HUGE! I can’t wait!

[@hadlymcmuffin]

@@kylemcw8301 The entire climax of Stranger Things and the Upside Down plot will have nothing to do with his sexuality lmao

[@fungusamungus9961]

Bro you’re out of your mind lmao. What show have you even been watching where the entire focal point is sexuality based

[@gamingblazio]

I hope they don't kill off Will. He deserves a happy ending

[@febbledebble]

Agreed. Both Will and El have been through the absolute worst, it would be so cruel to kill either of the two after they both lived a whole life of abuse and torment. I really hope they survive season 5.

[@darkyboode3239]

I don’t think they would.

[@SLAYBot9226]

Will has have the worst time in stranger things

[@cappinho8553]

right! i def want to see him as an adult with a boyfriend.

[@timothyherlihy6480]

Will would be an absolut e legend as the Martyr of Hawkins, the town he loved but who seemed to hate and distrust him just like Eddie, and if Eddie having his liver eaten while still alive with some Fava beans and a nice CHI-anti at Enzos by a bunch of flying demo rats with wings haha, was enough to wreck me a bit, it would be the most iconic and 2nd most metal martyrdom to go down ever!

[@shaddouida3447]

Ever since Will said he could smell Vecna, Stranger Things fans have been suggesting that Will and Vecna ​​might have a supernatural connection similar to Harry Potter and Voldemort. Thus, it will be the two of them who will face each other in the final battle of Stranger Things.

[@_ytnahs]

Smell him?? 🤣 He can SENSE him

[@akeelyaqub2538]

Vecna is a dark wizard, wills d&d character is a good wise wizard. Seems like they're opposites.

[@kewziie]

I Think just like how will got hurt before once he was corrupted by them burning the roots he is now instead connected to Verna in a way where if they want to destroy the upside down will is going to have to die since he is apart of the upside down now he has to go with it idk if what I wrote makes sense cuz I am tiredd asfuckkk

[@rainbow5602]

​@@akeelyaqub2538 Isn't he a cleric tho? If I'm not mistaken el is the wizard

[@akeelyaqub2538]

@@rainbow5602 i think El is the mage. I dont think Will is ever named as a wizard in the game but he dresses as one and draws himself as one. Vecna wasnt created until season 4 so his connection to Will hadnt been invented during the earlier seasons so my thinking is the two wizard comparison will be a retcon. They were vague enough with Wills wizard character to make it work consistently going forward. Pretty much everything vecna related in prior seasons was retconned in after season 4. Like the clock chimes, him taking Els powers to open portals and his silhoette appearing during Wills kidnapping.

[@bridgetteparker7719]

What if the Upside Down is shaped by everyone who has been taken and "hooked up" in the upside down. It's possible that Barb had read Nancy's diary because she was worried about what Nancy was getting into with Steve and she woud have been really familiar with her best friend's room. However, Wil might be the only one capable of "updating" the Upside Down because of his creative abilities.

[@mymomcallsmeblake]

I think this is it. Barb was the first victim! Vecna consumes everything about his victims, so any detail about them was absorbed into him and his world too.

[@bridgetteparker7719]

@@mymomcallsmeblake Theoretically there were victims at Hawkins Lab first, but I imagine they shaped the upside down within the lab.

[@frankieflow13]

But Barb didn't get taken into the upside down until after the Hawkins version was created. Meaning Nancy's journal would already be there.

[@febbledebble]

The diary stopped at the day Will got taken, Barb was taken a day or two later. So that theory is out the window.😅

[@malibumaxmusic]

@@febbledebblethat could of been the last page barb read tho before being taken

[@wogehtslangbro]

I'm rewatching the whole show for the third time since season 4 dropped, i really need season five 😭

[@danielestrada1496]

Bro me to i keep watching every episode. And the last one wer ed n max die i watched bout 30 times. Cant wait for sn 5. The end will not have people satisfied the producers confimed this

[@darthdank1993]

If you watch it more than 10 times I hear you appear permanently in the upside down.

[@darthdank1993]

@@chels.7 be Careful! Keep your cell phone on you fully charged and take lots of footage. 8)

[@kasianowakowska7984]

I heard it's going to be on 2024 so, a long time still

[@keerat_1905]

​@@kasianowakowska79842025 now smh

[@heypollard]

It seems like the Upside Down has been growing since S1. It’s possible that anyone who enters leaves and imprint, but I also think anyone who is connected to Vecna/Mind Flayer also leaves behind their memories. This would make sense that everyone who was at one point possessed by the mind flayer has a part in building the upside down. That is why by the time S3 rolls around the upside down is basically all of Hawkins, because presumably hundreds of people were flayed. As to why time is frozen, it could be that different items are from different times. But that is one that still needs more info!

[@astrogaming3083]

My theory is that, the reason the upside down is stuck in 1983 is because the opening of the original gate, in season one was such a powerful event and released so much energy that is forced a new shape for the upside down. Basically when 11 sent Creel in the upside down she didn't actually sent him to the upside down, she sent him in sort of in-between space, and as we see when Creel gets there, the dimension is basically amorfic, shapeless, like the Earth was in the beginning, and it's the opening of the gate in 1983 that snapped it into the shape of our world. Also, when eleven initially banished Creel, she didn't really open a gate to the upside down, as we see through the series, when gates are open, they stay open, whereas when she banished Creel it sealed almost immediately back up. I think the first gate, opened at the lab, when she literally tore the fabric of space-time, it imprinted our world onto the upside down

[@peachiepie400]

Doesn't that mean that they eventually have to kill Will because he is still connected to the Upsidedown? Everything you mentioned about Will and the Upsidedown reminds me of Harry Potter and Voldemort, when Harry as the last horcrux has to die so he can then destory Voldemort. If Eleven has to kill Will to get to Vecna that would be absolutly crazy, but i think it's a great theory.

[@febbledebble]

El and Will are now brother and sister though. I doubt she’d ever be able to kill him, they care immensely for each other.

[@dazed1369]

@@febbledebble all the more reason for her to do it. ✨drama✨

[@febbledebble]

@@dazed1369 Nah I doubt it. The Duffer Brothers said that originally El was supposed to mercy-kill her birth mother to end her suffering, and Will was supposed to kill Bob in his deepest state of possession, but they decided against it because it would be too dark for their characters. I doubt they’re gonna make El kill Will or vice versa, it would be too dark.

[@MrCastr8]

Maybe it’s not that complicated as 11 killing Will, maybe he’ll kill himself and solve everyone’s problem. You saw how this last season he was struggling with coming out and seemed to be alone already. It’s preparation for his suicide

[@iloveanadventure]

@@febbledebble either she will kill will or will will give himself up to save them all

[@Preirin]

EVERYTHING the Duffer Bros have is AD&D related. If 001 is Vecna and Eddie is Kas (speculation) could Will be Narek, technically a child of Kas but a young man trapped in a prison of jealousy and hatred who was transformed into a beast after attempting to use his powers.... all speculative but.... maybe? Perhaps Will has to be willing to risk his humanity in order to save everyone. Also, the Upside Down has existed since the dawn of time. I firmly believe that. I think when Eleven made physical contact with the Demogorgon it created a bridge between the two dimensions, but didn't create the dimension itself. Perhaps the Upside Down IS the place between dimensions. A protective barrier between worlds. Who knows? As far as the date issue... I think this is refers to when Will was abducted. He became a beacon for Vecna to focus on our world. An anchor through which to manipulate those on our side. It is possible that part of Hawkins was in fact shaped by Will's memories, but I don't think so. Not fully, at least. I think.... It reminds me somewhat of Athas, a kind of world-between-worlds or Kalidnay, an astral plane where empty, ruined buildings fart outnumber any inhabitants. If The Upside Down is akin to Ravenloft, it would explain the portals as well as the ever-present dust. (Ravenloft is a campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. It is an alternate time-space existence known as a pocket dimension or demiplane, called the Demiplane of Dread, which consists of a collection of land pieces called "domains", brought together by a mysterious force known only as the Dark Powers. Each domain is tailored to and mystically ruled by a being called a Darklord who is forever trapped and surrounded by magical mists surrounding the domain. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft) Or I am reading WAY too much into it. :D

[@Chris-se3nc]

It may be that not every part of Hawkins that was built in the upside down is at the exact same frozen point in time. Remember when Billy was taken, he was told they’ve been building it for you and build what you see. so I think vecna was using others memories to build up more of Hawkins

[@trio910]

Yeah I agree, I think that "Build what you see" line was never fully explained and is probably crucial to understanding Vecna's/the Mind Flayer's goals.

[@heatherisnotcool]

@@trio910”build what you see” was referring to the army. vecna showed billy a vision of himself (billy) standing in front of a huge group of people and told him to “build what you see” and billy proceeded to build an army of people for the mind flayer to use

[@Aldrnarii]

I love the idea of Will being gifted but suppressing it all of his life. It now only allows us to have a full 'Will the Wise' character reveal moment where he just embraces it but it can also be really poetically tied into his homosexuality, wrapping up that emotional plotline at the same time with Will accepting who he is.

[@Tenecto]

Will is a maker. He creates things, he shape worlds. Wether it is with crayons or immensely powerful psyonic abilities, his trait is creativity. It doesn't matter if he didn't knew the contents of Nancy's diary or what Steve was hiding under his bed, if he indeed has the kind of power to reshape a whole world, all of those limits about not knowing specific details about something doesn't apply here. So let's follow the logic of this scenario: it's wether Vecna knows or partially knows about Will's abilities prior to the kidnapping, or it all caught him by surprise. It also depends on how powerful Wills powers are, if Vecna saw potential to use him, or got afraid and tried to keep him in ignorance of his abilities, there is also the possibility of Vecna placing the soteria on Will's Neck just to keep him manageable and ready to be more easily flayed in S2. The Soteria could also explain why Owens tests had a negative result on wether he has psyonic abilities. He later uses them so those tests didn't gave us the truth.

[@Tenecto]

Btw, he will get the boy. And Eleven will have a happy ending arc anyway. 100%.

[@philwhiting5625]

The thing about Will not knowing the contents of Nancy's diary could be explained by the fact Nancy has been in the upside down and by merely being there her memories helping create the upside down on that specific date that Will went there in season 1. The same with Eddie's trailer. That could have been populated by Chrissy when Vecna killed her. She hadn't seen inside Eddie's room though so that could have been populated as soon as Eddie went through watergate. Memories of Hawkins from Hopper could have also helped create parts of Hawkins that only he knows which Will didn't know about.

[@bridgetteparker7719]

I was thinking that maybe Barb had read Nancy's diary, but Nancy has been in the upside down a lot, too and Vecna did connect directly to her. The question, though, is why it's frozen in 1983, which is what pulls me more to Barb than Nancy being the one to give the input.

[@philwhiting5625]

@@bridgetteparker7719 true. Barb was taken on a different day to Will, but that day could have been Nancy's last entry at the time. Or because upside down Hawkins was only created as soon as Will was taken that's the date that it defaults to when upside down Hawkins expands. Or its a minor detail designed to make us obsess over for no reason 🤣

[@bridgetteparker7719]

@@philwhiting5625 Right, or the last entry Barb saw.

[@fork9001]

But how would this explain the diary being accurate word-for-word to the handwriting? I doubt that Barb would have scanned the diary and memorise every single word and what handwriting was used.

[@britbrat327]

It has nothing to do with entry bc even Eddie said his old guitar was there everything everyone had in 1983 was what was still there. Go rewatch that episode again

[@jeffmartin5504]

The diary issue may be explained by the fact that each person that enters the upside down brings their memories of that day with them and they physically manifest in the upside down. It's possible that Nancy would remember that day quite vividly because that is when Will went missing and everyone's life changed at that moment. It's like people remember exactly where they were, what they were doing, and what they felt when major events happened such as the assassination of JFK, The Challenger explosion, and 9/11 (In the U.S., at least). Will seems quite observant as well so he would have created the town of Hawkins (the upside down version) since he lived there his entire life up to that point. He does not need to know the details inside each building or house for it to exist in the upside down. The inside, for all we know, is empty space since he does not know what's in there away from the windows. This could explain why Nancy's diary is there but not introduced until Nancy finds it or that Eddie's guitar is there but not revealed until Eddie grabs it.

[@lightthroughdark]

I think that maybe henry was making the upside down look the exact same as his hometown, but as soon as he realised he could actually see the real version and physically be in the real world version instead, so his interest went from recreating the real world to being in the real world

[@cocomoch5392]

One thing you mentioned is something I’ve always wondered. Is the Upside-Down an exact copy of the world but just crippled. I’ve always thought if someone just got a car or something and drove away from Hawkins in the upside down.

[@Jferraro24]

Yeah me too. Like what is beyond upside down hawkins? Is the whole earth there?

[@sqb_]

then it says get back to combat zone with a 20 second count down

[@iloveanadventure]

@@Jferraro24 rightttttt thats my exact thought

[@7MinutozRapsLetras]

@@Jferraro24 is the whole universe there?

[@rfresa]

I think it's probably just Hawkins and immediate surroundings. That's why they can't get through from Russia, it doesn't exist there. What if it's not just Will who has powers, but also Joyce? She was able to sense him in the UD, and even hear him briefly through the phone. The two of them could have an actual psychic connection that reaches across dimensions, which created the UD Hawkins when he was taken and they were both trying to find each other. It may be similar to how Henry's mother was the only one to realize he was causing the visions. Both boys got their powers from their mothers just like Eleven did.

[@McDooogle]

Thank you for covering this!! I felt it wasn’t talked about enough!

[@NokoFace]

I like the idea that Will managed to "shape" the upside-down into Hawkins when he was taken - which is why I'd also love to see Vecna's reaction to that. To that volcanic world being transformed into Hawkins, and for his former home to appear and allow him to take up residence inside.

[@KiKiChamp123]

The ultimate question is how the Upside Down was created before the gate opened. I believe it’s not an alternate dimension but a gate to the inner core of the Earth. This explains how at the end of the season it was described as an earthquake. Maybe at the centre of the upside down, there’s some big energy core that needs to be destroyed to destroy the upside down for good. Probably a bad theory but it’s my opinion that I’ve thought about.

[@giraffe6856]

OMG I love your theory. Now that you talked about the similarities between Vecna and Will, I JUST realized, how Vecna always take host of someone who's a loner with sensitive mind WITH trauma and all of these fit so well with Will. And I also wondered why the Upside Down felt so different when Henry first arrived. The color pallets are different, it has orange and yellow and it feels more like deserted land than a town when what we see now mostly have blue tone to it. I really agree on your take, that Will somehow shaped the Upside Down to be Hawkins because this town is the only place he knew.

[@Chickennuggets8282-h4l]

I mean, I thought the upside down look like that is because maybe Henry was like in a different country or like in a desert or something and the reason it was yellow is because I don’t know lol But now that you mention it makes sense

[@JustmycupofTEA]

Also to note Will had the passionate love for the game D&D creating those creatures for the game and manifesting those fears in the upside down too.

[@Marqaisa]

I think when Eleven inadvertantly sent Henry/01 to the upside down he explored and started to mold it to his liking. Fast forward 4 years later when Brenner made Eleven make contact with that Demogorgon and Will got taken, Will needed familar safe places to hide from the Demogorgon so he imagined the upside down as Hawkins so he could find places familiar to him. In S4 when Nancy and the older kids were in the upside down and they went to Nancy's house to get the weapons and Nancy finds out it's stuck in 83 because of her diary stopping on the day Will disappeared as well as Barb (poor Barb, you were forgotten too soon) it's also a matter of prospective of whoever's in the upside down. And two disappearances on that night for that quiet little town where nothing happens is quite significant. Not to mention Eddie's home where Chrissy died. It was one of the gates so when they went back in and Eddie and Dustin were decoys Eddie's beloved guitar was there in the upside down for him to use to distract the demobats. All about personal perspective and familiar grounds which Will started in 83.

[@PokeObsession]

Barb died days after. Not same date …

[@jensscholz]

You missed a hint about the storykey, that "someone" (Will) has the power to create/recreate a world with his fantasy and imagination from "nothing" in Season threes reminiscence of the Neverending Story song. So Will is basically Bastian. He even has the same hairdo. I think, that ST in the end is an interpretation of The Neverending Story.

[@hsmorg3640]

I could see Will having created a perfect copy of Hawkins when he was taken into the Upside Down, and when he was saved, it froze time, since he isn't there to let it continue anymore, and he hasn't been back since.. interesting theories

[@D00MWatcher]

There is one flaw. Time froze when will was ABDUCTED, not when he was SAVED.

[@jessicalynnkoch9377]

I would love to see a video on the review for the story of wills time in the upside down! I’m excited for that one, I hope you do it! Thanks for all the awesome stranger things videos, Michael Jae☺️ I’ve been subscribed for a while and I really enjoy your theories!

[@Golden_Flute]

This is sort of a parital theory which I'm sure has plenty of holes, but I wonder if Will is somehow similar to the kids Dr. Brenner experimented on. Vecna showed us that he had powers that developed outside of the lab, and all I could find on Terry Ives (El's mom) was that they had her take a bunch of psychedelic drugs, the effects of which passed to her fetus. If that's all it takes, it's definitely possible that there are other kids out there with special abilities that aren't lab-grown... like Will? Maybe he's sort of "the one that got away," which would also explain Hawkins Lab's interest in him after he returned from the Upside-Down the first time---that put him on their radar. Anyway, like I said, this is all speculation, but I do feel like there's something to it, even if what I've guessed isn't 100% true. Will has already said he's connected to Vecna after his time in the Upside-Down, but maybe he was connected to Vecna (and Eleven) before that, and just didn't know it? :)

[@sqb_]

also both will and henry have been called ”special” and ”sensitive” kids by their parents, very similar kids in terms of personality

[@jennyvillarreal5490]

But then are you suggesting Joyce took psychedelics which would give Will those special abilities? I don’t think that happened.

[@ewelinakowalcze6101]

hopefully not it would be a bad plot lets not mix els and other kids past with wils

[@MarcDoesNotKnow]

it's plausible! they draw a lot of parallels and similarities between will and vecna.

[@Gersheyz]

Just subbed, definitely should have sooner, but better late than never. I'm totally down for a breakdown of that perspective of the upside down from Will's POV. I have a feeling that his D&D character is going to have an impact on your theory. They reference the villains as D&D creatures, and how Mike is the party leader, whom everyone follows because he's the heart of the group. Will was a mage, able to escape and survive the dangers of the upside down, as well as maintain a latent connection to Vecna. I'm not as well versed in older versions of D&D which they would have been playing at the time in the show, but it could correlate to how he and Jane (feels weird calling her by her slave name 11 tattooed on her arm like a Holocaust victim) both have a strong connection to the upside down/Vecna/whatever dimension it was before Hawkins was duped there.

[@samuelault4723]

I have a really bad feeling that the entire show has just been a giant dnd campaign that the kids have been playing the whole time. I feel like that’s also a solid explanation of why all the kids have near invincible plot armour

[@Lilacgem-02]

I hope not that would be lazy writing. I think they want to do spin-offs down the road

[@KDA8919]

I can tell you from trusted sources that this won't be the case.

[@tracychristenson177]

It could be that Will started creating the upside down as we see it - a frozen, twisted version of his home town, but since it includes things that Will wouldn't have seen, maybe Vecna started on what Will started, filling in the details from the victims he killed. After all, we know that his victims' memories stay with him. Maybe he's been using the memories of people he's attacked to build this upside down world.

[@TaurusWD]

Playing into D&D. The original name for The Upside Down was The Nether. I'd guess that it's a sort of Ethereal plane that connects other planes. So, when 11 banishes 1, he goes to the plane of existence which contains the Demogorgon's. Whenever 11 is using her locating ability she's traversing the ethereal plane. When she makes contact with the Demogorgon it forms a bridge that 1 uses to get closer, and through that creates the Nether dimension (AKA The Upside Down). That leaves 1 most of the way back to the prime dimension, but he isn't quite able to make it all the way back in time. But since Will became "infected" during season 1 he becomes Vecna's dimensional anchor (thus the need for Will to stay alive to prevent Vecna from drifting in the Ethereal plane again). The Nether probably started as a small plane and continued to grow as Vecna inhabited it. Most of the growth probably occurred during individual moments though, so I'm betting we'll see a chunk of the Upside down added in detail in 1983, and another chunk during the Snow Ball, and another chunk during the mall fight. With the ending to season 4, I'm guessing that means Vecna will be able to expand the size of the plane quickly and maintain the anchor regardless of Will.

[@Doomsterlobster]

The world 1 was banished into clearly existed long before his arrival, because it had had time for the evolution of complex life forms. (And clearly, these are not just some figments of imagination conjured up by 1 and 11, they're biological creatures.) It also could not have been very small, because the Mind Flayer's storm cloud is huge and visible from miles off. And yet 1 says he explored this new world, untouched by humans, until he discovered the Mind Flayer. It is implied he spent a long time and travelled a long way (and he physically changed in that period). I doubt there's anything mysterious about the Upside Down (or whatever you call it) as such, it's an actual place like ours with its own laws of physics. It didn't reach out, interact with, or react to the real world in any clear way before the Numbers started messing with it. That mirrorring quality is probably more to do with their powers, realities bleeding into each other.

[@TaurusWD]

@@Doomsterlobster Yeah, I don't think I communicated it well. I think the world that 1 was banished to by 11 was its own dimension. When 11 made contact with the Demogorgon via the ethereal plane a new Nether plane spawned that bridged the plane between 1's dimension and the prime dimension. That dimension being The Upside Down. So, maybe 1 brought some of his forces through and is now stuck in the Nether. Away from the plane that had the Demogorgon and Mind Flayer storm cloud, and now he's just re-constituting it as his powers grow. It could grow pretty fast and be everything we've seen in Season's 1-4, but still not be big enough to reach Russia.

[@Doomsterlobster]

@@TaurusWD Oh yeah, I see what you mean (I think). I may have missed it, but I'm not sure there was any suggestion that the world 1 first entered is different than the current Upside Down. Something caused it to become a mirror image of Hawkins, but the presence of the same fauna (demogorgons, I guess the bats etc.) suggests there was no physical discontinuity. Unless we speculate that all those monsters followed Vecna halfway through some portal that stranded them there, but you'd expect that to be referenced in some way. I guess we'll see, haven't really given it much thought. I think the problem with opening the gate in Russia was sufficiently explained in the show: they had the key, but not the door. They didn't have mystical superpowers, so the best they could hope to do with their machine was open a door that was already created by someone else. It's not necessary to speculate that the other world doesn't also reach Russia to account for that plot point (though I agree that it might not look like an inverse Russia but be in its pristine condition, there).

[@DaniqueEmiliaSteinfeld]

I googled DnD The Wizard, since Will is the wizard. And I think this description will be/is very important:Wizards are supreme magic-users, defined and united as a class by the spells they cast. Drawing on the subtle weave of magic that permeates the cosmos, wizards cast spells of explosive fire, arcing lightning, subtle deception, and brute-force mind control. Their magic conjures monsters from other planes of existence, glimpses the future, or turns slain foes into zombies. Their mightiest spells change one substance into another, call meteors down from the sky, or open portals to other worlds.

[@nFire]

The upsidedown it's basically Hawkins in "dark mode", that's why we can find objects like Nancy's diary, posters and stuff like that.

[@gmansgnarlyscienceshow2820]

The Upside Down was bright Red with red lightning when Henry Creel got Emperor Palpatined/ Mace Windud/ Revenge of the Sithed by it in 1979. Now it’s dark, bluish black and eerily even more alien.

[@damnshawty-m3s]

*Dimension X

[@cashmoney8339]

I need an hr long of season 5 theories

[@AmaraJordanMusic]

He could make a compilation video, if it wouldn’t fry the algorithm.

[@cashmoney8339]

@@AmaraJordanMusic nah I want a fresh take om all the characters n not what he's already put out. He should make that for Thanksgiving

[@laithamekir5778]

This is also the same day Will went missing... Will teleported to the upside down in episode 1. Wills already shown he has abilities. For instance he opened a portal from the upside down. The Demogorgon caught up to him and he had to run... Joyce yelled for him to run away and the demogorgon came thru the wall instead. In season 2 or 3 Mike said to Will "Did you think we would just stay the same and we would play dnd in my moms basement the rest of our lives?" Will answers with "Yeah, I honestly did." This lead me to believe that wish started when he was chased by Vecna in the first episode of season 1. When Vecna chased him into the house he used telekenisis to open the chain lock on the front door of the byers house. Will is the most powerful UNNUMBERED number. There is always a control to experiments. But how would he have powers weren't they created in a lab? Maybe we dont know for sure. However my next theory connects it all... Joyce is Alice Creel. She survived Henreys attack group up raised by her aunt who was crazy. Joyce has always been "a little crazy." The connection is Joyce where we have ZERO BACK GROUND. The duffers have shown they are huge Halloween fans "Mike El Byers" the use of the Michael Myers mask and many many others bit the biggest twist in Halloween was Jamie Lee Lori Strode being Michaels Sister... Michael always went after his family and the actor for vecna said he was instreucted to start by focusing on Will. He locked himself in a room and put a picture of Will up first." I think Mike will die infront of Will and Eleven but Vecna is concentrating on holding eleven while killing mike and or Will comes in to see Eleven almost dead and Mike already and that triggers his powers and he kicks the shit out of Vecna and then severs the connection between Vecna and the mindflayer. He will also sever the connection of vecna and his hold over max. After they kill Vecna and everythings settled Eleven and Will together will bring Mike back to life in a metephore that it takes boy and girl to create life. As much as we know true love should be the only thing that matters. This is my predictions and ive voiced them for months now on many channels but also my Facebook groups for stranger things. I get people can post their ideas but I made sure to put a time stamp in public places because I figured eventually someone would put it forth as their own and thats cool and maybe someone beet me too it i dont know. But if you like the theories you can find me on Facebook with the same username as here and many Stranger Things fan pages. Just send me a messege letting me know your a fan of the theories. Much love to you all and great video.

[@blairzey11]

This theory works because in order to get a full town outline, you don't actually need Will in the Upside Down. Say this theory is correct and Will created a nice outline of all of the meaningful places he would have known about in Hawkins up to and including Season 1 - you get Mike and Lucas's neighborhood; Dustin's neighborhood; the gorge, and the long road slightly outside of the main town to where the Byers house is. That's more than enough for Vecna to be able to use the telepathic connection (NOW memories) to get a large map of Hawkins through the underground in Season 2 and to piece together any areas that Will didn't have full details about. We also got the whole Main Street where his mother worked, the library, etc, which gives you the center of town, so then part of the Mindflayer is stuck in Hawkins between season 2 and 3, learning a new layout and areas and the whole time that Will is growing up and taking in more of the town, in the Upside Down, Vecna, using his powers to meld energy like he did with the Mindflayer, is building more and more of Hawkins through not only Will but by being stuck in the "real world." Likewise, once the Mindflayer used an entire town of people to create his muddy organic matter body, he clearly absorbed all of their info of places in the town, etc etc. Hence a more detailed Hawkins. Then we see that the whole time, Vecna, as soon as there is a portal opened, is able to jump into people’s thoughts and minds - he could easily manifest Nancy's diary and other details. The whole idea of things and places within the Upside Down changing when Will directly interacts with them works, too because Will, inadvertently changes the Upside Down when he interacts with it in the real world, like a computer update. Probably each time something emotionally traumatic happened to him at a certain place, the energy was strong enough to change the Upside Down - proof? Will never wanted The Wheeler's House to change from how it was in 1983, so anytime he is there he would be projecting a certain nostalgic energy that preserves it as November 1983 when all of he and his friends played D&D and that was what mattered most. The Snow Ball inadvertently changed Hawkins Middle School or "updated it" because it was the first time we see potential romantic couplings, Will having to awkwardly Dance with someone while Mike pairs off with El officially. We need to see the Byers House, but I'm pretty sure we see the letters on the wall when Joyce and Hopper are in the house season one in the Upside Down - because Will made contact with his mom and it was a strong emotional connection where he was really projecting his energy enough to wake her from her sleep by yelling MOM, the wall in his house would have changed in the Upside Down. Anything else Vecna could have created simply by tapping into the minds of everyone in town as soon as he had a brief outline provided by Will and a map around town (also provided by Will). Like the theory says, the Upside Down is not "stuck" in 1983, the Wheeler House may be because that is where Will preserves it emotionally, but other parts of the town may have been changed or updated base on direct emotional interaction through Will's telepathic connection to the Upside Down or through Vecna using the collected memories of those he has killed or spied on mentally to create a detailed mirror image of Hawkins.

[@C.r212]

HOLY SHITTT

[@blissfullycat02]

I always felt like it might be Will, like it didnt look like Hawkins until he was pulled in which is why there are only a few things from Hawkins doubled in the upside down. He might have his own true sight so when he was in the Upside Down he was able to see into the real world and because he is connected, certain new details bleed through to the Upside Down but I don't think it's just him, I think it takes from everyone who ends up in or near the upside down, so Nancy created her diary when she went in in season 1, Eddie created his trailer when he dove through, etc...

[@Chimpmanboom]

My theory is that since will is always shown as being the dungeon master when he got taken in season 1 he turned the upside down into a replica of Hawkins. Because when vecna gets sent by 11 it’s like a wasteland and not Hawkins. Will might have powers himself or some kind of connection to the upside down or might even somehow be the villain of season 5.

[@iloveanadventure]

ya i feel da same way, i feel like will kinda have like some type of manifesting type of powers idk

[@TheArckaneMen]

barb got taken too, dont forget that, I think the way the upside down forms is by getting all these emotional connections from peoples thoughts, when you think about it, barb was consumed by the upsidedown, since this is all a hive mind, the mind grabbed all of barbs memories and infused it to what already was there, just because you cant remember something doesnt mean its gone from your brain, im sure barb at some point read nancys diary, because what curious friend wouldnt do that, and now from the new season, vecna infecting so many minds, he probably was able to keep building the world from not only what will remember/knew, but from all of the other victims that have seem most of hawkins, which can explain how we got all the other places that will has never been in, but everyone else that you see die, has.

[@Invalourrr-vb3xo]

The thing thats always confused me is that, in season 1, I guess vecna didn't have the power to open portals by himself, so how tf was the demogorgan able to do exactly that? It was able to make its own gates seemingly anywhere and at any time.

[@Chickennuggets8282-h4l]

It’s less of a portal and more of a leak that is why it gets closed very quickly mean while portals can last for 100s of years

[@MarcDoesNotKnow]

the demogorgons' portals were more of a quick burst of energy which eventually fades though right? the close a few minutes after

[@chrisbush7095]

Because 11 had already opened the gate - they were using the power of the open gate to create a connection and open a temporary (smaller) gate somewhere else. Once she closed it - that stopped.

[@jahurulislam3719]

Upside down is building day by day but it can't update itself cause no one is living here. Most of the upside down hawkins built by Will as he spent 1 week there. All the places he knew recreated there. After that everyone taken by vecna creats a part of it from their memory about hawkins

[@cc1k435]

I haven't been so intrigued to know an ending since Harry Potter. 🙂🙃

[@UToobin75]

1) It could be stuck in 1983 because Will was first to physically venture there, and that's when he was taken. 2) To go on a deeper level. It could have something to do with a foundation of the show... NOSTALGIA. It could be stuck in 1983 because that's when Will was the happiest, and he refuses to move on. There was a point in season three where Will wished he and his friends could remain just as they were, being in the basement playing D&D, and a point in season four where he said he thought it'd be great if they won the lottery so that they could just sit around and play D&D and Nintendo forever (goals). Now I'm not a big fan of painting nostalgia as an enemy of growth, but I do think it'd be kinda genius to tie season five into the concept of nostalgia itself and how once that gate is open it can be all consuming.

[@kazourple]

the duffer brothers have confirmed a few things about season five that no one talks about: 1. season five is going to be a lot like season 1/2 meaning we will could see a parallel more so of will and what it was like in the upside down instead of what is going on in hawkins 2. season five is going to be focussing on the upside down 3. season five is going to have will as the main focus (everyone pretty much knows this) 4, season five is going to have a post-apocalyptic theme to it and lastly 5. since it’s season five and the whole town of hawkins now knows that something is really going on and it isn’t some curse, they don’t need to hide the fact that the upside down is a place

[@GenericBrand-TM]

Just discovered your channel two days ago but I've already plowed through several of your videos. Still waiting on my cookies, but I really enjoy your breakdown of this story. Also, props for the Cowboy Beebop Displate. I got one years ago and have never been disappointed.

[@LeeChesnalavage]

I like the idea that Upside Down Hawkins might be like the Unconstructed Dream Space in Inception; a bottom layer that only Will has influenced. If that’s not the case, the ‘orange’ Upside Down that Henry goes to must be Hawkins too but Henry may have been able to alter it in his own image, it’s just we haven’t seen it before Will arrives. Maybe Henry was able to freeze a moment of time there but it collapsed when Will arrived and his own powers overrode it? 🤷

[@Ragdoll_-hc2nb]

when the gate opened it most likely made an exact replica of the current world and that’s why is can’t get out of 83 because it only made a copy of Hawkins in 83 not further

[@shaddouida3447]

Stranger Things 5 titles Episode 1: The Abandoning Episode 2: The Good and The Bad Episode 3: Gate Apocalypse Episode 4: Nature's Corruption Episode 5: The Shadow Army Episode 6: Eleven Episode 7: The Return Episode 8: The end of All Things In The Fall Of 1987

[@D00MWatcher]

I just don't agree

[@NextToToddliness]

Will is the real "heart" of the group and it's possible he subconsciously turned Hawkins into a hive mind and became the actual heart of the whole town, if this theory is correct. That way he could "know" details without actually seeing them. That all being said, as much as I like this, I don't think the Duffers had any clue where the story truly went, just an outline. Even George Lucas has admitted he didn't know what he was doing most of the time and didn't know where it was all going. To me, what a lot of studios are actually doing is mining places like Reddit for ideas and content. I think that's why a lot of the shows on streaming services are mostly lackluster, even the big budgeted, over-hyped ones.

[@juliancaraveo5700]

If the Upside Down is stuck in 1983 my explanation is because that is when something from the Upside Down ( the Demogorgon) came into Hawkins. That is my best explanation.

[@veirglas]

i like this theory but nothing from the upside down went to the wheelers or hops cabin, maybe things that have been in the upside down update the upside down

[@IgnacioRuz]

@@veirglas true

[@rawrpancake]

IMO Will has some sort of powers - Eleven in S01 was able to communicate with him when he was in UD, that never happened with "ordinary" people. Also, hinting even by his mum, that he was always a little bit different, more sensitive - I don't think that she was referring to him being gay (or suspecting that). He's more creative, maybe he had "projected" their campaign into the real world? Cannot wait to find out :D

[@jennyvillarreal5490]

Steve can hear Dustin when he’s in the upside down. Voices can be heard. It’s not unique to Will.

[@rawrpancake]

@@jennyvillarreal5490 yeah but there was no psychic connection like between El and Will at that time. I'm focusing on her power only. Mirrored location - sure (and that's the echo), but mind linking is unique to El and noone without powers was able to contact her back via this method.

[@audgee]

Please do a review and summary of the book!

[@thedeltastrat]

11:20 the Russians managed to briefly open a portal in Russia, or else they wouldn't have been able to capture a Demogorgon. My theory is that they just couldn't create a stable enough one in Russia, but eventually they managed to get one open long enough for a Demogorgon to be able to get in, they then cut it off from the mind flayer and captured the fragment, then the portal promptly shut. they couldn't re open it hence the Hawkins plan. I also agree that most likely it is only Hawkins which is replicated in the Upside Down, but I think the rest of it still exists, its just likely a wasteland like we saw when Henry first went there.

[@philwhiting5625]

This is a theory my wife had the other day. Rather than Hawkins being created between 79 and 83 and it stops being created on the day Will goes there but that it is created as the day Will goes there. However, the time jump they are talking about for season 5 I think is backwards, not forwards. Remember Eddie's uncle putting up the missing persons poster and it had his age as 17? This was 1986 and he would have been 20'ish, having failed to finish school several times. Why would his uncle think he was 3 years younger than he really is? That's because I think as the upside down is bleeding into the real world, so is the fact its 1983 in the upside down. Not a physical time jump back to 1983 with de-aging and whatnot but a mental one, with the real world Hawkins believing it is 1983 instead. Hence Eddie's uncle thinking Eddie was 17, not 20.

[@robbiesmith8055]

I think the thing with Eddie's age is just a goof - they've said they're doing a time jump so they can age up the kids, so it's definitely forwards

[@치추이]

@@robbiesmith8055 why a time jump? i'd prefer it if they actually continued where they left off. or they just going to continue the show in an apocalyptic way, years later

[@robbiesmith8055]

@@치추이 I'd also personally prefer they just pick up where they left off, but the Brothers Duff have been saying since before Vol 2 that they're probably gonna do a jump.

[@D00MWatcher]

@@치추이 In 2 years, when the show is thought to be released, the kids are gonna be really grown up, not kids anymore. So, they will do a time jump to make it more realistic.

[@erickleefeld4883]

Symbolically, it represents Will’s arrested emotional development from the night of his biggest trauma. As for its literal in-universe explanation, guess we’ll find out in Season 5!

[@WAFFLESRGOOD655]

I’m subscribed. I love your videos, but I think I’m in the backrooms bc I can’t find the cookies

[@IgnacioRuz]

lol

[@nfw187]

The problem with Eleven creating the upside down when she saw the Demogorgon, is that Nancy’s diary entry was filled in, which probably means that Hawkins was copy and pasted in the nighttime. Ya know, when will was taken

[@gmansgnarlyscienceshow2820]

0:30 Eleven didn’t create the Upside Down, what was this woman on about?

[@johnmarcolaxamana7018]

Real she just opened a gate to the upside down

[@FanfictionReader0307]

She reintroduced the upside down to the human realm, so they built it around her and Will's knowledge. And I say "reintroduced" because Vecna gave them a semblance of the human realms, at least to the point on how to manipulate and be sure to detect humans like Vecna used to be.

[@gilsalazar8226]

I really like the theory that Will truly is the Dungeon Master after being brought into the Upside Down and Connecting with the hive mind. Vecna might be able to use the Upside Down to traverse and use his "powers" but only Will truly has the ability to alter the Upside Down to his "will."

[@murfturftidwell5119]

Here’s a thought in season one when Nancy finds a gate from where the demogorgon came through, how did that appear because eleven couldn’t have been there to create it.

[@hartlessprince1666]

Hey your doing an amazing job ❤❤❤

[@UToobin75]

Will actually got hit by a car on his bike ride home in episode one and has been in a coma ever since. Everything that's happened since is in Will's coma dreams. Final episode is Will waking up from the coma. He'll be in his late teens but it'll still be 1983 in his mind. The tragedy will be that all of his childhood friends will have moved on and Will will be stuck in a perpetual state of adolescence. Post credit scene is Will, sitting alone in his bedroom: Pan-in shot on his D&D board figure as it slightly shakes as if he's causing it to move.

[@GamerGodOfficiaI]

The Bruh thumbnails aren’t making sense anymore, you’re not having a reaction to anything. I know someone already said this. But it’s so old and boring

[@MeddlerPropagandist14]

It’s just clickbait

[@j.u26]

bruh…

[@onIyindreams]

rlly doesnt matter idk

[@IgnacioRuz]

...bruh

[@WAFFLESRGOOD655]

Idc I still love his vids

[@shaddouida3447]

First Stranger Things 5 predictions: - it will come out in summer 2024 - there will be a time jump to 1987, and it starts off with Max waking up from her coma - a new character will be introduced as a new fan favorite, but dies in the finale

[@Mychannel-s9r]

If Vecna can’t go to the real world then how was he in the first episode

[@IgnacioRuz]

I used to think that vecna was the one in the first episode but your comment is one of the main reasons I no longer believe so

[@torrfaye2368]

waitttttttt thats so true, unless im missing sum ???

[@herrscherofyatta_]

Its Demogorgon not vecna actually

[@googleitlol6590]

I’m pretty sure Vecna hasn’t been in the real world since 11 sent him to the Upside Down. He can look into people’s minds tho and appear like he’s next to them like Chrissy in the bathroom scene.

[@SpaghettiYOLOKingTTV]

It wasn't physically him. He used the Demogorgon as a scout. It's like how Billy was able to due extraordinary things when Vecna took control. The particles that make up the Mind Flayer is what allowed him to take control of every living being in the Upside Down. Will isn't part of the Hive Mind until the particles entered his body, which means his neck tingle isn't part of the Hive Mind. It's whatever Will has in him that lets him know of a threatening presence. More than likely how he survived season 1 for the most part and not be assimilated then. He was able to trust his instinct and stay away from the danger of Vecna. When he tried standing up to the Flayer, that's when he began feeling and knowing everything. So basically, Vecna is everything in the Upside Down. He's omnipotent. The different creatures and vines can still operate without him directly controlling them, but look at every example we've been shown of people that became part of the Hive Mind. Will. Billy. Many townsfolk. They're them, but they're not. Everything they do isn't their decision per se. They serve Vecna because essentially, they're part of him. If he takes direct control of them, they're able to do extraordinary things. Both Will and Billy had superhuman strength when directly controlled. When directly controlled, they're an extension of him, which means he was in control of the Demo in season 1. He was able to use his psychic powers to open the lock. He used his knowledge of the lab to cut off the scientist at the elevator. And he was able to create small portals, but they were just temporary. Many portals were created in season 1, but they only lasted so long. The mirroring of the Demo pinned against the wall just as 001 was pinned against the wall by Eleven was a great way to subtlely tell us this. And as the Demo, he still managed to muster the strength to reach toward her before being turned to ash. I believe he always knew Eleven was strong, but I feel that his plan began to take shape and come to fruition when he witnessed, as the Flayer, Eleven closing the gate. That's when he knew she was the key to everything he wanted to do. That's when he knew he needed her power.

[@Jonrocks7]

I like how he said that the cars were the only thing mirrored, and thats because the whole set flipped upside down, in reality it is probably the same but in the context the entire scene is flipped. (You can see that clearly when you look at the school, its not just the cars)

[@xdjamesboond9351]

it starts with will and ends with will

[@kenna_king100]

I feel like Henry chose Will to rule with him. Help create the world yes, but help the world be less lonely too.

[@tabbycat55]

We don’t know that Will was taken by a demigorgon. All we see is his face. So, did he see a portal? Did he see Vecna? It’s odd that he survived. The question is who took Will? He wasn’t eaten like Barb. His entrance into the upside-down might be the key.

[@robbiesmith8055]

I thik it was definitely a demogorgon that took him, because the sounds it makes are consistent with how the Demogorgon sounds (Vecna never makes noises like that). But Vecna would have been controlling it, and he probably left Will alive on purpose. There's no way a 12 year old could survive the upside down we saw in s4 on his own for a week, Vecna has to have let him live for some reason.

[@basicleighdisney5643]

@@robbiesmith8055 But was he supposed to live? Because when Hopper and Joyce go in to get him, he's pretty close to being completly dead. They had to revive him. But this would also mean Vecna was killing him very slowly for some reason, instead of quickly like all the others.

[@robbiesmith8055]

@@basicleighdisney5643 I think when s1 was a stand alone story, Will was supposed to have nearly died and they saved him just in time. But since the story has gone on and they've made it clear just how deadly the Upside Down is, they've made it basically impossible for an unprepared child to survive a week if the creatures there were actually trying to kill him. Part of me thinks they'll go 'it was Vecna's plan all along' if only to explain how the hive mind didn't find and kill him instantly.

[@WalrusDaDog]

The upside down copys everything at the time, then when 11 or will or 1 idk they update it when they go near places.

[@JessiRose420]

Guys one of the first things we learn in s1 is that Brenner’s men built all the buildings in the upside down. He says to them something along the lines of “how are the developments” and the guy replies “it’s all still here just corroded and grown over with vines”

[@user-op6kt8pg9y]

"Developments" in no way means they where building it

[@rlee1185]

Absolutely not

[@spyrentep5900]

I think it’s wherever will goes, the time passes with him, he never went into Nancy’s room, he never went to her weapon stash, but he did go to the snowball, and that’s why time passes there, it’s wherever will goes.

[@wojurera3131]

I don't care for Vecna, like at all, he's so contrived, and I hate that they killed Billy, so yah, the show lost it's way in so many ways for me.

[@iugenart]

If the Duffers have said that the UD represents people's fears and whatnot, maybe this is literal. the UD is a physical manifestation of the collective unconscious of the residents. and maybe will has some sort of onnection to the 'heart' and his emotions control time there, like eleven suggested at the start of the season

[@felixdejesus4319]

First

[@felixdejesus4319]

I a.m yay

[@in_vino_veritas7938]

Will was the first taken to the upside down but survived. Barbara was taken and didn't survive. That's when it all started so it's significant. Maybe because Will is imaginative, creative, and open-minded it made it easier for some of Vecna's powers to sort of attach to him like a residual effect. The other details Will couldn't possibly know about could have been filled in by Vecna subconsciously. And neither of them are aware of that aspect yet. Similar to Sherlock Holmes quote. But why would Vecna know or care about Nancy's diary entries? Ok so maybe the upside down being what it is just flipped it like a reflection naturally. But only because of Will's conciousness which jumpstarted the engine, so to speak. Like a human map of Hawkins and its inhabitants. Plus, after that more stolen memories were acquired by the number of victims and visitors. El's sister would come in really handy in their fight to end Vecna.

[@RealAnchovy]

I reject the idea that eleven created the upside down, she most definitely created vecna and the gateway to it but no way she created an entire dimension. The mindflayer had to have always been there, what makes more sense is that eleven accidentally made it easier for those psychic creatures to escape their world and infect more. I think of this as a multiversal infection, it would also make more sense if the upside down was a universe where vecna and the mindflayer already won. The wormhole explanation also works for this as well, space-time was already warped in hawkins, it’s significantly harder to bend space-time than it is to go to a place where it is already bent and simply open a door. If the world is ending and Nancy attempts to stop it, (like her character tends to do) I don’t think she’d have much time to write in her diary. The entries stopped on that date because that’s when Nancy started to not have enough time to make diary entries. Also, we’d have to assume that the mindflayer has already made a strong psychic connection with will for upside-down hawkins to have been created by his mind, which we already know that the mindflayer needs to do that sucky-sucky thing on mfs face. The use of the alphabet with lights can be explained by the bending of space-time, I suppose things could appear in both dimensions since they are quantumly overlayed (yes I know quantumly isn’t a word, you get what I’m saying). It also makes no sense how it would be frozen in time since will is awake now and has a different idea of Hawkins, upside-down Hawkins should be updating with wills new view of Hawkins, but it isn’t. Thus I believe it’s a multiversal infection. Every time they talk with their science teacher, it reinforces my theory perfectly, the wormhole demonstration could also be used to demonstrate how one would travel across universes.

[@liv_rayne6803]

Ok so i have some little things to add, which I inferred from your theory. We have pretty much established that in this mad house everybody has some sort of ability that differentiates them from the others, eg: El has the ability to open portals/gates to other dimensions, Kali can make people see illusions, Henry can create a monster out of a freaking storm, which btw can control the minds of others. Maybe the ability that differentiates Will from Henry is his ability to shape/create. But the question still remains how did Will create the Hawkins in UsD so detailed? Maybe Henry helped him. He needed know and see the present day Hawkins. So what if when Will was shaping UsD ( after the portal was opened by El) Henry entered the minds of the people of Hawkins (which he can do, quite easily) and helped him shape every nook and cranny of Hawkins. And viola, map of Hawkins ready, which he used in the 2nd season. But why did Henry needed the people of Hawkins? Because as much as adventurous 11 year olds are they don't know/remember their complete town to redraw it, specially when they are stressed out, even more s when they are the type who'd rather play DnD in friend's basement ( I am trying to say he's introverted). But i do have a question, When Russians tried to enter UsD they weren't able to, why? I mean yes, no russian town exists there, but they still could have been able to enter UsD, it's not like the whole dimensions didn't exist, rather then seeing a town, they could have met with the plains like Henry did.

[@christopherkochis9011]

maybe barb is the key to nancys journal, that seems like something a best friend might know?. or maybe who ever enters the upside down projects some piece of it.

[@Steve-mr4pu]

I think you're half right. Will didn't create the Upside Down, Eleven did. When she touched the demogorgon it linked the world she banished Henry to with Hawkins, and it became a mirror version of Hawkins. Will's connection to the upside down is he's a spy for Vecna. He says as much in Season 4. Also, Vecna has a pattern of targeting people "close" to Eleven. Close in proximity because Will was riding his bike next to Hawkins lab when he was abducted, and close emotionally by taking over Billy, who's sister Max was good friends with Eleven. He then targeted Max to draw Eleven out. Will undoubtedly has a major role, and I wouldn't be surprised if Will dies in S5 as a tragic sacrifice situation.

[@Crabtrademark]

I like your theory mine is My theory: is elven didn’t make the upside down because when she sent Haney creel to the upside down there was a Demogorgon in the upside down so maybe elven connected the real world to the upside down in 1983 and that’s why it’s stuck in the year 1983

[@jennyvillarreal5490]

Barb wasn’t close to Will. Neither was Chrissy, or the basketball player that was taken in the middle of the lake, or Nancy’s friend (the reporter guy with glasses and dark hair).

[@Sebastian04223]

I feel like if the door is open for a long time it starts to morph realities. Because the door that eleven banished Henry through closes immediately. But, the door she opened in season 1 was opened up for a while

[@Jorge77770]

In season 1, the Demogorgan is the main villain, after 11 opens the gate to the upside down, while this gate is open more start to bleed into Hawkins, the gate in the tree? Joyce’s house and the school, let’s say that with the main gate open more can be easily created, the barriers between worlds has weakened. We also learn demogorgans need human hosts to create more demogorgans, is this Vecna building his army in S1? S2 it’s established will can flit between worlds, he has a physical presence in both? His body is taken over by the particles in the upside down but also the real world (this is the biggest plot hole to me) we then learn that these when the gate is closed the demogorgans are cut off from the hive mind and die, but the mind flayer remains dormant. S3 the mindflayer particles stuck in the human world are revived when the soviets start to reopen the gate, it then starts to gain more hosts. It takes 11 powers away, Joyce closes the gate and the physical mind flayer is defeated. S4 we learn the soviets have both the mind flayer particles and demogorgans. Also Vecna and his backstory is established, we also learn the upside down is stuck on the day Will went missing. Also…. We learn that Vecna after stealing 11 powers can also make gates? Which he could never do before? I feel like some of the plot needs clearing up or they needs to tie up some loose ends, most of it probably centres around Will, I can only assume season 2&3 Vecna’s aim was to take 11’s powers to open gates for himself 🤷‍♂️

[@ethanbernstein5765]

Couldn’t it be that when the portal was first opened, the upside down took a snapshot, like a camera. The shutter opened for just a second and took that exact moment in time and copied it in reverse. Just like a camera. And the reason it never changed is that one: like a piece of photo paper, once imprinted. You can’t put another photo on. Or two, it only happens when a new connection is established. (If every portal was perfectly closed, then a new one opened, the world would update itself. But I personally like the camera theory better because it would tie in to Jonathan’s photography and there might be a moment where it comes down to the brothers vs Vecna.

[@idontuploadanym0re]

4:45 Will ABSOLUTELY would be smart enough to realize Joyce was spelling somethjng

[@mitologijaiokultizam7608]

The strongest thing is the ending of Nancy's diary in 1983, the same time when everything begins. And the Vecna ​​​​​​knowing and showing her all in advance could be the hint that he somehow managed to distort and warp, or stop the time, without them even knowing in the "real world". The fact that in the upsidedown world you have houses and all the man made structures, but only whitout the humans who made it, could be the hint that Henry all rady is winning, and have them trapped in the somekind "pocket alternative dimension" where all look's so pictusecd and idyllic, so he could control them and stop them to do something about everything. Or it is the opposite: Interestingly in his monologue he does mention the purgatory, so maybe El did kill him, but being his consciousness and mind is so powerful, he refused to die, and created the "upsidedown world" as his pocket dimension, by his wishes how the world should be. That would also explain the existence of man made structures, because they are in Henry's memories, but no humans, because Henry hates them, and wants the world without humans? And it would also explain why he despite being older, more experienced, and in the moment obviously more powerful then Eleven couldn't open the door before Eleven accidentally "contacted" him trough the Demagorgon, it could be the reference of summoning him, something like duh on the seance, or the demon? And knowing that he's collecting consciousness of his victims, all the creatures there could be changed persons that he collected that way, and shaped by his will and perception, and place them like figures on a chessboard so he could make contact more easily, and so free himself from his "purgatory." And we know that he's a chess player and he played chess with El in the Lab, in her memories. This literally explains the best way how it is that man made things exist in the upside down world, but there's no trace of humans who could have made them not so ever. HE HATES HUMANS. He maybe used Will's memories from the day he was taken to do some corrections, but there's some things (like Nancy's diary, or Viktor's house) that only Henry could replicate, being that he has simular powers of seeing things from far away like Eleven does. Woow, it's really mind blowing, and makes you think...🤯🤯🤯

[@brylee8281]

I think Will had a Soteria implanted in him by Vecna when he was brought into the upside down. Because Vecna will eventually want to harvest Will’s unique psionic abilities. But was too weak to claim Will at the time. Which would make sense for how Will was in an incubator type state with the UpsideDown vines. Vecna wanted him contained until he gained enough power to take Will’s.

[@stripedbandit5252]

What if people who go to the upside down imprint on it in some way? Perhaps Vecna connecting to peoples memories in some way is how this version of Hawkins was created? Like Castle Byers wouldn’t be a popular place that the whole cast would know about, Barb in the pool cause she was taken while she was there, the creel house as it is so important to vecna (even the mindscape is set out as a fragmented version of his house). Even Nancy when she first entered the Upside Down, perhaps that’s why her room was so detailed?

[@gamewarden2813]

My same thought, once these people enter, they imprint. However, why would they imprint the past? Also how did Eddie not notice his trailer was different from the present time?

[@cameradude478]

actually here's my theory the entire concept of the upside down is based on memories let's assume that the upside down has been here since the very beginning of times, but it never had a connection to the real world. Which is until 1979, in 1979 eleven opened the first gate and sent 001/venca through it, and he was first normal but got corrupted by the hive mind, and became a part of it. The mind flayer now has access to vecna's memories. Since he first got taken by the lab when he was around 9/10 he had a hazy rough layout on what hawkins looked like, so his strongest memories is his house and the lab, and other land marks (yk because the guy has to have driving places) Even if he absolutely hated his house, his house is where his strongest memories are at, so it's a basic operation place where he has full control, and you can say that he made the upside down from land markings he remembers. "How did he know about Will's house?" "What about all the other land markings blah blah blah" "How did venca get to will if he had no point of reference on where he was" eleven made contact with a demogorgan and opened a gate. Vecna told eleven about the escape route from the tunnel, where she escaped, Will was right next to the escape route on his way home. Vecna specifically remembers the marking of the escape route and snatched him up like that. So now vecna {or the mind flayer if you wanna be technical} has access to will's memories, and he re-creates his memories from what will remembers, which includes mike's house and dustin's and the school, ect, which explains why nancy was super confused on why all her stuff was missing The demogorgans are like soilders, scouts basically and they travel back and fourth through the already existing gates and relay the information on the markings back to vecna, re-creating them. vecna wants to self reflect and create a copy of the real world because he thinks it's too broken, so he makes his own world, via the perfect paradise

[@GeoffSebesta]

The Volkswagen bug is extremely significant, because it indicates something that I've suspected since the first episode: the Duffer Brothers agree with mstrmnd's theories about the Shining, and the bug is a Shining reference.

[@justurfavaveragegirloffcial]

Fun Fact For No Reason: In the Five Nights at Freddy's Lore, the bite of 83 is in well 1983 and according to a theory The bite of 83 took place on Nov 14th 1983, 8 days before the FNAF bite!! (FNaF is a game)

[@nohomeobromeo4973]

We see that vecna can travel through peoples thoughts and memories so what if vecna could do that from the beginning from the original portal but didn't have enough connection to the real world yet to kill or take control but it allowed him to create Hopkins as seen through everyone. And when eleven touched the demogorgon that allowed it to get out and bring Will into the upside down and when Will was brought back vecna was given a crack in a door that he basically used will to slowly edge that door a little further and further. Bcz vecna technically lived in Hopkins what if he used his small access to the real world to shape the place he never got to explore and be apart of bcz he was stuck in the lab for so long. Indirectly giving him the "freedom" he wanted from the lab.

[@littlepk5281]

Did you know in season 4 why wills acting depressed is because everybody forgot his birthday 😢