Why Tommy Gunn Failed As Rocky's Student - Character Analysis/Theory

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Who is the better student between Tommy Gunn and Adonis Creed? EDIT: No Creed III spoilers please!

[@masonmartin7822]

Definitely adonis

[@TomE.V.]

Donnie 💯

[@victorphan6274]

Adonis without a doubt.

[@derrickhaggard]

Adonis

[@ShareeqKhodabaks]

Creed

[@michaelmclaren1333]

Could you imagine your wife hears about a bastard child you had with another woman while you were still married. His dad died, his mom died then your wife steps up and fights for and wins custody of your son and raises him as her own. I don't think I've given Mrs creed enough respect and just how much that storyline made my jaw fall on the floor. I think she's an AMAZING woman

[@MrClassicmetal]

Salute to miss Huxtable!

[@is.that.Mazzi.]

She’s a queen🙌🏾💙

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Mary Anne is the GOAT

[@CarlosGuzman-vi9xw]

OMG, I could only imagine, and her line, "I had to wipe your father's ass cause'it he fought so much he couldn't use his hands no more!"

[@douglasskropelnicki2866]

100%

[@leerogish7223]

I think the biggest reason tommy failed and Adonis succeeded was Adonis was simply smarter and more mature. Tommy was barely an adult when he met Rocky and grew impatient with not having a quick title shot and riches leaving him easy prey for Duke. Adonis on the other hand was much older than tommy when he began training with Rocky plus he was college educated and had previously worked in the financial industry so he knew how the world worked especially from a financial standpoint. Lastly as mentioned Adonis had strong family values instilled in him by mary ann and tommy didn’t have any family.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's a very good point. Adonis was closer to Rocky's age in the original Rocky film (I remember Rocky was 30 in Rocky 1 but can't remember how old Adonis was in Creed 1 at the moment) while Tommy was barely 19/20.

[@GaryRPeters]

The vibe with Tommy Gunn was that he was really only in it for the money. He was a tough kid with a dark past who didn't seem that bright. It seems like he was interested in using his toughness to make himself rich. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but it seems like his loyalty was only on whomever could get him that big payday. So once George Washington Duke offered him the world he was prepared to leave Rocky in the dust. Adonis, on the other hand, as you said, obviously didn't need the money, and was smart enough to land a corporate job that was very lucrative. But in his heart, he was a fighter. He wanted it for the same reasons Rocky wanted it: to prove to himself that he's somebody. Sure Rocky probably got into boxing for the same reason as Tommy: tough kid, not too bright, not a lot of options. But Rocky always had the heart of a fighter like Adonis, that he carried in all walks of life. That desire to be better. To prove to himself he can rise to a challenge. In Rocky V, Adrian has that great quote she says to Rocky, "All those fighters that you beat, you beat them with heart." That's what Adonis understands that Tommy didn't. The money and fame are great, but it wasn't only about that. It was about self-respect and giving every last bit that you have to earn something you believe in so much. Tommy starts out seeming like maybe that's where it's at for him, but slowly reveals himself not to be.

[@leerogish7223]

@@StryfetheWarrior Adonis was 28 in creed ll

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@GaryRPeters Tommy was not ready to reach the top

[@kareemabdallah5539]

@@StryfetheWarrior creed is 25

[@daxmoney5011]

Ironically Tommy’s Morrsions story is more tragic than Tommy gunns

[@KGBeast.]

I read his life story and my week is ruined

[@StryfetheWarrior]

It definitely is tragic. Morrison was phenomenal.

[@elvispressley2365]

Apparently, Morrison's life REALLY went off the tracks in terms of drugs/partying/womanizing after the movie because he was a superstar hw boxer and big franchise movie star.

[@Marzchaix]

Morrison’s life was incredibly tragic. A talented, great looking guy that was destined for greatness let the horrors of fame corrupt and ruin his life and that lead to a young death… tragic.

[@shiningphantasy1393]

I was going to say something similar to this; ironic that the lessons told regarding the Tommy Gunn character in Rocky V were somewhat parallel to what undid Morrison later on in his boxing career. He is my favorite boxer to watch too and it's left to the imagination how devastating he could have been with laser focus, consistent training habits, and better extracurricular choices. A young, successful boxer's life isn't going to be without distractions of course so easier to say on the outside looking in to be fair.

[@martymart6143]

I always felt it was a shame that in the first Creed film no reference is made to Tommy and Rocky's reluctance to train anyone else because of that. But I guess Stallone didn't treat Rocky 5 as canon

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Yeah, it would've been nice if they made more references to it

[@mawproduced]

Honestly that Rocky with Tommy...may he rest in peace....was really horrible....the worst of the franchise.....it was good that Sly pretended it never happen. Horrible movie.

[@therealmohammad]

@@StryfetheWarrior The impression Adonis made sparring Danny was a tribute to the impression Tommy made with Rocky at Mickey's Gym. Both wanted to prove a point and it backfired on both of them.

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

​@@mawproduced Rocky mentioned Tommy just not in name in the first creed about his reluctance to train again

[@michaelmclaren1333]

When Adonis first asks rocky to train him rocky does say "I tried and it didn't turn out too well". I do remember it being in the film. Then Adonis tells rocky that he wouldn't fail rocky.

[@comicbookreviewer4856]

To me Tommy Gunn fatal flaw was failing to realize he can't please everyone and needed to see that he had to build his legacy slowly and not taking shortcuts and see that buildings slowly you are taking things carefully as it takes time

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed

[@superfanmusicmaker]

While Tommy and Adonis do have a lot of contrasts and differences in their upbringings and attitudes, Rocky himself also approached mentoring Adonis in a completed different way to how he did Tommy, and his influence was just as crucial to how differently they both turned out. Rocky did care about Tommy, but at this point he was still lamenting his recent retirement from boxing and was desperate for any way to get back on top. He genuinely wanted Tommy to succeed, but there was always a sense that Rocky was trying to vicariously relive his own career through Tommy. And Tommy himself felt that he was being disrespected because nobody saw him and just focused on his already famous mentor instead. It's sad that their relationship crumbled, but it was inevitably going to happen with how Rocky was approaching it. But with Adonis, Rocky is older and wiser and fully accepts that his time in the spotlight is gone, especially helped by the fact that he had his last fight in _Balboa_ and went off a high note. Even after finding out that he's Apollo's son, Rocky treats Adonis as his own individual and not just an extension of himself or Apollo. He has no interest in profiting off Adonis' success as he did with Tommy, and as his absence from _Creed III_ indicates, Rocky is also willing to step down and let Adonis live his own life and career when he knows his protege can take care of himself. Adonis was always going to be different from Tommy anyway, but Rocky had to prove that he'd learned from his previous mistakes.

[@comicbookreviewer4856]

To me the way i saw Rocky with Tommy it was clear Rocky still wanted to carry on his legacy but he slowly realize he still had his respect and Legacy from the people who cared about him and saw him as a hero but I never saw Rocky wanting to relive his own career through Tommy but Felt Tommy was a lot like him and felt He could be someone to carry on the Rocky legacy only to realize He was never fully like him something Rocky had to realize and Even try to talk with him when he wanted to fight him despite the fact it was never going to happen

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@comicbookreviewer4856 but Tommy should have never been greedy just like that

[@shiningphantasy1393]

Rocky capitalizing inadvertently from a sense that Tommy's ascension up the boxing ranks was giving Rocky a sense of euphoria (To the extent that he was alienating and being a bit of an a-hole to his son) as well as re-connection to Mickey by taking on a similar role; there is something to all of that. However I don't think that he intended to profit off of Tommy as he was taking things slow with him and not pushing him recklessly to lucrative fights like GWD was trying to persuade him to do, focusing on Tommy's development rather than the prospect of cashing in upon first opportunity.

[@championboy4782]

​@@lexkanyima2195 tommy was a bad kid who believed that money and success were the only things that could make him anything more than his dad's piss stain. Unfortunately he didn't ever learn past that and Rocky himself wasn't ready to teach him that lesson. So, a failure he would be

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@championboy4782 but Tommy was influenced by Duke and Rocky warned him.

[@Stone5588]

One thing I always found different about tommy and Adonis is how they both approach their training. Tommy was more impatient and thought he was ready when he wasn’t. Adonis had more ring psychology by watching rocky v creed and even though he was a little impatient he knew that it was more about skill then power at the end and that’s what helped him.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Fair point

[@lexkanyima2195]

Donnie didn't watch the Tommy Gunn fights

[@Stone5588]

@@lexkanyima2195 true I was referring to the classic rocky v Apollo fight in the beginning of creed and Donnie starting my to re enact it so he learns how to fight in the situation

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@Stone5588 true

[@mrmoviemanic1]

I never knew about the forgiveness deleted scene. I quite liked it as it in some ways I feel completes Tommy's arc instead of the film just being another story of Rocky overcoming adversity.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed, it could've been a nice touch

[@llynellyn]

It's kind of funny that there's a superior version of Rocky V we'll presumably never see, yet Stallone wasted millions re-editing a worse version of Rocky IV lol.

[@sonyx4500]

​@@llynellyn He probably doesn't want to edit a movie were his dead son is in it.

[@OllieConnorsFilms]

Everyone should be aware of Damian’s (Creed 3) character is going to mirror both Tommy and Cluber Lang.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed

[@moisesjimenez4391]

Just watched the movie last night and was thinking those exact thoughts right before I scrolled by your comment lol

[@johncap6495]

The love Rocky had for Tommy,the passion he had for the sport and the stuff in the basement is what pushed Rocky through. It's even said throughout the street fight.

[@lowkey621]

Adonis already came from money, none of the stuff that swayed Tommy would have worked on him. Adonis just wanted to fight and fulfil his legacy, so naturally Rocky always had more to offer than any big time promoter

[@lexkanyima2195]

Well Apollo is a smart business man

[@dragonfire4527]

14:23 very interesting you should say that. Some fans including myself have also compared Creed 3's plot (via the trailer) has elements similar to Rocky 3 and Rocky 5. In some ways Damien like Clubber Lang is a hungry individual who's envious of their respective opponent's success and the fact that they feel Creed and Rocky hasn't to truly earned their titles due to them fighting in expedition fights/setups.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

The parallels are definitely there!

[@dragonfire4527]

@@StryfetheWarrior yep, I remember one fan commented on one of the trailers that the movie does have some parallel to Rocky 3 and 5.

[@lexkanyima2195]

But Damien is less tough

[@dragonfire4527]

@@lexkanyima2195 we shall see

[@JDoe-gf5oz]

It's like pottery!

[@AccountantProOT]

I dont get how people diss Rocky 5. I thought it was a great movie, along with the rest of the saga. Just to see how Rocky, how he was a successful and "civilized" fighter, like Mick called him in Rocky 3, to come back to his old stomping grounds, was a good story. I think it doesn't get a lot of love, because he didn't fight in a ring, but that's what made it special. Seeing him come back to the land of the mortals and become one of the rest of the people again, made it special. Not to mention, Elton John's song in the ending credits titled "Measure of a Man" was a nice feather on the proverbial hat. I dont believe it was a great way to end the franchise, so that is why I'm glad that 16 years later, Rocky Balboa came out, which to me, is the film that spoke to me the most, because of my personal crusade I was going through in 2006, and how that movie enabled me to learn to believe in myself and even helped me to see my life through different perspective. So yes, I like Rocky 5, even with all its flaws. Is it perfect? No. Is it great story telling? Bet your bottom dollar it is.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

A lot of the cut material also would've helped the film I think. It's a shame that it released the way it did. I also love the Measure of a Man montage

[@FB-nw8pp]

Because Rocky has always been and uplifting movie with an underdog coming out on top. But Rocky 5 was different because Rocky lost all his money and his student became a jerk.

[@F6LabsVideo]

Rocky V looks a lot better in retrospect, as a midpoint in the entire saga. It unfortunately had 15 years of being the assumed final film in the series, and in that role it was not what people wanted.

[@nakitapalmer656]

Thank you!!! I that it was just me who felt this way!! It was actually realistic to me. I that it was a good movie, fr.

[@Aloha_Bama]

Tommy Morrison was actually my friend in real life. Good guy. I miss talking to him.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's awesome that you knew him!

[@davidbrown7522]

Wish I could have met him, glad you two had a friendship 😊

[@randallrutherford1384]

I would love to meet you and talk to you sometime. I am a true fan of Tommy’s.

[@Tonyconstanza]

I interviewed tommy before he passed he was talking about fighting and doing some shows even as an old man

[@davidcook680]

It's a shame Tommy had to retire because of aids. He was only 28. Just hitting his prime. He had some really good wins already.

[@jandro8370]

Pretty easy the difference is that Adnois was saved by Apollos' wife and given a second chance. He was shown real love and affection and also had privilege. He didn't have to box. Tommy was abused and had no one to look too. He was poor and wanted quick money because he knew he could fight. He just needed some guidance and polish and knew Rockys style was perfect to mold him into a champion. Tommy was just interested in using people to get what he wanted. He was easily lead astray by the sleazy promoter even tho Rocky gave him great reasons to stay away from promoters like Duke. Tommy Guns story is obviously modeled off of Tyson. As the video says, there's a speech Mickey gives that's almost word for word the same as an interviews Cus gave with Tyson how Tyson was his motivation to stay alive.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed

[@nathangarcia7921]

One the main differences is about how Rocky approaches them as students, Rocky actually stays reluctant teaching Adonis throughout the first movie, and is a bit more cautious. While with Tommy being reluctant at first becomes super enthusiastic about training. Another point is Adonis gets humbled early on when losing a fight in the gym while Tommy stays winning until his street fight with Rocky

[@MrWl4148]

It’s almost as if Rocky wasn’t mature enough to train Tommy and almost wanted to keep living the dream as a boxer through Tommy. With Adonis, there’s more gravity because he realizes that training is all he has left to pass, mainly because he’s a bad father.

[@smileyent.3055]

@@MrWl4148 also cause he didn’t know if he was about to train another Tommy

[@terminallumbago6465]

I wonder if age played a factor too. By the time Rocky trained Adonis, he physically couldn’t take as active of a role.

[@GaryRPeters]

I wish Rocky V wasn't so universally hated by fans and Stallone. Yes, it seems like the story is rushed and yes it's weird that his kid has aged 5-7 years, even though the movie starts immediately where Rocky IV left off, but I respect Stallone for trying something new. It was definitely a product of the early 90s (feelings about that may vary). I was 9 when it came out and it was the first Rocky movie I ever got to see in the theater, so I admit bias. But I love the flashback scenes with Mickey, and the fight at the end. It was a little odd that Rocky reverts back to the Rocky of I and II in speech and mannerisms, despite being more "civilized" in III and IV. There's one scene where Robert asks Paulie if he thinks his dad is acting weird, and Paulie says he just took some hard shots to his head... I guess Drago knocked the class out of him? In any case, I was glad to see that old school Rocky back. I wish it had been more fleshed out, but I still loved Rocky IV. But I guess I am glad Stallone wasn't satisfied, since we got Rocky Balboa, which was a perfect bookend to the original. The Creed movies stole some of that thunder, unfortunately, but I still liked them a lot.

[@Ny__javi]

Rocky balboa (2006) in a way was the perfect sendoff and true retirement to rocky’s career it succeed where 5 failed and rocky was finally able to regained the respect of the fans and was able to finally be at peace with boxing

[@StryfetheWarrior]

It's a shame a lot of the cut content didn't make it into Rocky V. It actually helped expand the story.

[@Filthy_Larry]

@@StryfetheWarrior how about Tommy Jarvis looking like Corey Feldman in Friday the 13th part 4 in 1984 and then becoming Thom Mathews, a 25 year old in 1986?

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@StryfetheWarrior but fans are tired of Rocky in 1990

[@HaraDuran]

I believe Drago punched rock so hard he aged backwards lol

[@simonjack9699]

I always thought it was about what's in someone's heart! Tommy only cared about Fame he didn't care how he got there he just wanted to be the champ whereas Adonis Creed he wanted Fame but he also wanted a life he wanted to make his own legacy and not be stuck in his father's shadow. Power corrupts but sometimes power can make you stronger if you let the light make your path

[@polly6896]

Tommy Morrison was a damn good fighter. Unfortunately like a lot of successful fighters he enjoyed partying too much.

[@BigothyArchibaldBusiness]

R.I.P Tommy Morrison. I binge watched the Rocky Films and CREEDs with my uncle Ralphi, and i couldnt help but LOVE Tommy. Not only because of what happened to him, but because, honestly, I feel like he was VERY REALISTIC for what its like to be a boxer that crawls out of poverty to fight. I do not at ALL blame Tommy for his fate. If i came up from shit, was trained by the best boxer in the world, AND have so many opportunities for money, promos, and other sources of Income; I would most likely fall to the "dark side". Tommy fell for the glitz and glam of boxing. And its my personal Headcanon that Tommy went sort of a similar route to Johnny Laurence. I loved Tommy.

[@melissapas8474]

STRYFE THE WARRIOR: 😊😊❤❤✊👊It's great to have you back to making videos again my friend. It feels like it's been forever, but I am really glad that you got the time & space that you needed. We all need a little break every now & then so that when we come back it's with a vengeance. I love the videos that you create & have always been one of your biggest fans of your work & are happy that you have come back because you were definitely missed

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@melissapas8474]

@@StryfetheWarrior You are welcome

[@gojithriller6622]

I always thought that for a future Creed sequel they should have Adonis fight an older Tommy Gunn. Rocky’s latest student vs his fallen student. Thou that would probably be disrespectful towards the late Tommy Morrison, and it probably wouldn’t be a good route to take the series.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

It certainly would've been a solid idea

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@StryfetheWarrior Tommy would beat Donnie

[@Gorypaladin346]

Dude tommy would be in his 40s

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

​@@Gorypaladin346 If Tommy is in his 40s, then I don't think he continued boxing anytime soon since the age of retirement for boxers is 37.

[@fighterck6241]

​@@poweroffriendship2.0 not really. Alot of fighters fight into their 40s. It's been a trope since the 1900s; the boxer that doesn't know when to hang it up. Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Ali, Tyson, Holyfield all took paydays long after they should have retired and off all of them only Hopkins had a successful career in his 40s.

[@stilldreamin26]

Great Analysis ‼️I really enjoyed this video

[@M567dk]

I have to say that I enjoyed this video as I never knew that the actor who played Tommy Gunn in the Rocky V film passed away. I Mean that is just heart breaking to hear. Still, thanks for the video and keep putting up your fantastic videos.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thanks for watching!

[@AW33406]

Scrolling through the comments and the video creator has like & replied to a lot of them. This guy really participated in the conversation he’s creating, that’s how you know when someone’s really passionate about what they’re talking about. Subbed 👍🏾

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you! I'm trying

[@bottombarrelbudgetfilms1854]

I wish that there were more KZbinrs who would talk about Rocky sequels because there's so much story and characters and arcs that go completely untouched when it's just as developed as any other franchise

[@StryfetheWarrior]

I plan on making more character videos like these, so stay tuned!

[@bottombarrelbudgetfilms1854]

@@StryfetheWarrior I highly request a video power scaling every major boxer in the series! Personally I put Drago, Rocky from IV, and Apollo from 1 at the top

[@THX-C]

Great vid! Rocky V is worth watching and vastly underestimated - I hope It gets a director’s cut restoring that footage.

[@Dakingalbert2]

Just earned a sub bro cuz I'm a HUGE rocky fan since a kid for years love creed and rocky creed is basically the same franchise and a great successor

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you! I'll be making more videos soon

[@ShareeqKhodabaks]

Great video man grear

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@Jcholla]

I love Rocky V. It went full circle with Rocky being the father he never had and having a loving relationship with his son at the end of the movie. I was disappointed when Stallone said he hated it.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Nothing wrong with that!

[@mlo009]

Adonis desperately craved for mentorship with someone he can trust, and since Rocky had a really close relationship with Apollo, Donnie naturally saw Rocky as a close family/mentor. Also Adonis was given a good education, even though he has a lot of anger and showed the occasional temper tantrum, he still respects the hell out of Rocky, and would never think of laying his hands on him.

[@ButtaMilkBiscuitsGaming]

I agree, the beginning of Creed 2 even shows this when he asked Rocky after winning the Championship fight, Hey Unc....You good? Rocky smiles, Man..... Adonis loved Rocky man, and even after al the disagreements they had, he always came back to Rocky.... make ya shed some tears a little. Tommy tho.... i think we do need a directors cut of V. Flesh his story and background out a little more. it would i have no doubts make that movie better.

[@tjcarr8097]

My opinion since Rocky Balboa is that we don’t get that movie without 5!

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Rocky Balboa is indeed a solid film

[@FreeYourMindFilms]

Yeah I feel my appreciation for 5 (even though it's my least favorite in the series), has grown since it is now no longer the last one of the series. As a finale I always thought of it as fail. As another chapter of Rocky's before we see him as an older man in the next 3 films I think it's just fine and has its moments.

[@toxiclightning5303]

5 has a special place in my heart.

[@thepanelbiter9915]

Now that I’m reminded of who Tommy was as a character, it should have been him to return in Creed 2.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Unfortunately, Tommy Morrison passed away in 2013, so unless they did a recast (which they hardly ever did outside of Apollo Creed's wife Mary Anne, and Rocky's son Robert), it wouldn't have happened. It would've made a great story though of pupil vs pupil

[@aveekraymukherjee3386]

They may reset Tommy Gunn with kenzie Morrison

[@kevin2kfan323]

Rocky V was a great movie I loved Tommy Gun he was great it was just like Anakin Skywalker story was Rocky was like Obi wan Kenobi and he trains him to fight and be the fighter he wants to be but because of Duke and the media believing that he was Rockys Robot he decided to turn against him but also the movie deals with family issues and not only that it’s about how u rise after losing it all they lost it all and the Rocky and Mickey scene motivated me all the time and I’m a huge Rocky fan I’m obsessed with Rocky and the movies changed my life I can’t wait to see Creed lll.

[@PoweredByEnvy]

Stryfe, you did an excellent job on this video sir.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@codyweaver7546]

The failed student turned rival and later the teacher finding redemption is one of my favorite 1-2 punch story trope.

[@masonmartin7822]

Honestly Tommy was one of my favorite characters from the series besides clubber lang

[@StryfetheWarrior]

It's a shame we don't hear any more backstory/details about either of them

[@CharlesChristinaWH]

​@@StryfetheWarrior glad you acknowledged Tommy's boxing career tommy had a badass right Hook

[@jordanglasper1064]

This was a really good video. The difference between Tommy and Adonis. Tommy was all about self he never truly loved Rocky he was just using Rocky to get to the next level. Genuine love is often reciprocated by two people. Rocky loved Tommy because Tommy reminded him of his self when he was younger. Analyze the character of time and you will see everything that I said to be true. Phenomenal video analysis. And comparison. Just subscribed, notification bell on!!!

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@jeremybaker7462]

I really like this, so many good observations. Things like this make Rocky V more enjoyable. I like the alternate version that is floating around as well.

[@ThorOdinson]

Both Adonis and Tommy had severe daddy issues and transferred those issues onto Rocky. But Adonis’s issue was the lack of a father and filling that gap in his life, and Rocky was able to do that. Tommy, on the other hand, not only had a father, but he had one that was violently abusive. So when he transferred his daddy issues to Rocky, it took him to a violent place. He wasn’t hitting Rocky so much as he was hitting his father who abused him all his life.

[@davidbrown7522]

I always thought Rocky 5 was fine up untill the end you can clearly tell that’s when they started editing parts of story it doesn’t end well, Tommy Morrison great great fighter rip bro

[@Bowiiihowdy]

There is a directors cut on KZbin and it's alot more consistent and it's a considerably better movie

[@davidbrown7522]

@@Bowiiihowdy excellent I’ll have a look

[@EmperorDxD]

There many reasons Tommie failed but this can also be on Rocky he was still young and inexperienced as a trainer so he probably made mistakes

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's also a fair statement

[@OtakuD50]

I think the problem wasn't so much that Rocky had failings as a trainer but that Tommy also needed a proper manager. Rocky thought it was the trainer's job to do both, following Mickey's example, but Mickey himself wasn't a great manager. What Tommy really needed was someone like Duke (Apollo's trainer & manager) who wouldn't silently protect his charge like Rocky did or like Mickey did when keeping Rocky ignorant about Clubber Lang - Duke would have been able to navigate Tommy up the ranks and tell him to his face why he wouldn't be ready for the champ yet and what he would need to do to be ready.

[@williefaulker]

Also, his recent diagnosis of brain damage along with him maybe trying to get some monetary gain, (recently lost his fortunes do to Paulie and accountant) he wasn't in the right mindset so to speak

[@williefaulker]

​@@OtakuD50 very good point bro. I'm loving the discussions on these Rocky videos. 😅

[@NIKOLAP7]

​@@StryfetheWarriorPlausible argument, but Tommy was very ungrateful and arrogant.

[@grease430]

You forgot that Tommy fought Rocky who Was still strong as he beat drago and takes months later after Rocky 4

[@StryfetheWarrior]

I did touch on the subject briefly, though Rocky V still treats Rocky (and this is also touched upon in Rocky Balboa and Creed II) as not the same after the Drago fight. Rocky was still at a disadvantage from the damage from the Drago fight and still beat Tommy. In my opinion this still makes Tommy one of the weakest opponents in the franchise.

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@StryfetheWarrior why is Tommy weak ?

[@herrzimm]

Tommy failed because he was stupid and selfish. Adonis succeeded because he was focused more on proving himself and being worthy.

[@Eternl-]

Been waiting for a video like this

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@norrad9978]

I always thought that during the process of Tommy’s success he was slowly drifting apart from Rocky and was losing himself and Rock’s teaching where as Adonis needed Rocky and was very dead set on to him and I do think Rocky does remember his mistake from Tommy and instead of excitingly teaching Adonis he wanted it make sure he was serious and if he wasn’t he was out

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed, you can definitely see that in Rocky's speech to Adonis at Mighty Mick's.

[@jacktaylor6155]

Thanks. I'm going to subscribe. My Uncle used to always talk about Rocky

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thanks for watching!

[@griergentry8777]

Actually, Tommy Gunn was INCREDIBLY successful and probably went down as one of, if not THE, greatest champions. In Rocky Balboa, Rocky is referred to as “the ex, ex, ex” champion. That means that between Rocky 5 in 1990 and 2006 when RB came out, there were 3 heavyweight champions. Union Cane, winner of the tournament after Rocky retired was #1. Tommy Gunn beat him for the title to become #2. Finally, we have Mason Dixon as #3. Given Dixon’s age, Gunn would have had to have been champ for AT LEAST A DECADE, probably more.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

The problem is that there's no official source confirming this; it's all speculation. There's rumors that Ivan Drago beat Tommy right after he won the belt, or Clubber Lang beating Union Cane after Cane beat Tommy in a rematch after his fight with Rocky. So it's hard to say.

[@griergentry8777]

@@StryfetheWarrior Actually, there is. 2006’s Rocky Balboa called him the “ex, ex, ex-heavyweight champion”. That means that there have been three champions since he was forced to retire. Cane held it for a cup of coffee before losing to Gunn. So, it was only Gunn and Dixon between 1990 - 2006. Given Dixon’s age and number of title defenses in RB, Gunn would have HAD to have held the title for at least a decade.

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@griergentry8777 but Tommy didn't vacated the belt

[@jq1875]

​@@griergentry8777 I don't think he'd be getting that much praise, more so because of Creative Choices. Stallone distanced himself from Tommy Morrison because of his many off-ring issues and controversies. His character was pretty much disappeared from the public discourse in this movie universe.

[@williefaulker]

Great video bro

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@terminallumbago6465]

So in Creed, Adonis, as an up-and-coming fighter, was given his big break by the champion (much like Apollo did for Rocky). In Creed II, Adonis fought a much bigger and stronger fighter from another country (a literal Drago, just like how Rocky fought Ivan). In Creed III, Adonis fights a hungry contender, albeit one who is older than he is, who is jealous of the success he’s had (much like when Rocky fought Clubber Lang). So Adonis has fought his Apollo, his Drago, and his Clubber. Where do y’all think the series will go from here in the fourth installment (which considering how Creed 3 has done at the box office, is probably inevitable)?

[@michaelspikes1506]

I really appreciate watching this video thanks I really enjoyed seeing this

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thanks for watching!

[@damianstarks3338]

Great video thanks for bringing Tommy Gunn back to our attention.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thanks for watching!

[@damianstarks3338]

@@StryfetheWarrior don’t mention it !

[@Simon-zo2vo]

Rocky V is underated. That end fight the most realistic of the franchise.

[@williamdean4775]

It never made sense to me that Rocky never had something in writing with Tommy... Especially after Rocky had just been taken advantage of by his accountant losing all his money. Even if Rocky was experiencing brain damage..Adrian wasn't... she would have made sure once Tommy started winning fights.. they would have put something on paper. In real life Duke wouldn't have been able to get to Tommy unless he went through Rocky.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's a solid point. That might've been in a scene on the cutting room floor. There were a lot of scenes that made the film make more sense that were deleted. I'll go out on a limb and say if that's not the case, considering how Rocky was I wouldn't be surprised if he failed to put something in writing

[@streetfightingman4240]

This was so good! Very cool indeed I enjoyed everything about it and agree with your analysis. I didn't know about the Cus Demato speech to Tyson, I'd love to read that I doubt it's on video? Both Tommy and Adonis had father issues too I wonder if that's a common thing amongst boxers

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you! I actually used footage from it, but if you look up cus d'amato tyson speech, it'll point you in the right direction.

[@streetfightingman4240]

@@StryfetheWarrior thank you friend

[@jordanpax9735]

I feel like creed is missing the great rivalry that Apollo and rocky had. Adonis doesn't yet have that great friend rival like his father and mentor. They give him that and the cycle will continue from, rocky to creed to that person.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed, I think Adonis could benefit from that. Perhaps Creed III is a look at that going wrong

[@thegreatnessoftheraiders4948]

Great analysis.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@SuccessServer]

Tommy Gunn was basically Tyson

[@eriskllokoqi2385]

Thank you for this Video

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@chantlmcclary6419]

Seriously need a mighty mick movie I'd love to see Eddie red mane play the role of young mick with maybe Cillian Murphy as micks trainer. Also Rocky 5 could've gone over to Tokyo like Duke suggested at the beginning of the film. During Rocky 5 Adrian and Robert would still not be down with the training of Tommy and of course Rocky putting ego and glory first would do it anyway. However when Tommy does eventually get the title Rocky is given a sizeable cut and casted aside for Duke who he feels could take him further which breaks rocky. 2 yrs later though Tommy is a wealthy yet not a respected champ and he realizes he'll never have the respect without beating Rocky. Rocky due to financial issues would take the fight.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

A Mick film would be great

[@BigNix83]

This was a really interesting breakdown.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@kingwill3440]

It was rockys first time teaching so he had every reason to be having difficulty teaching when it's his first time doing so

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Fair point

[@carltaylor2975]

This is a really cool channel man. Very knowledgeable and fun with all kinds of interesting content. What made you decide to do content about Rocky? I'm assuming you grew up watching Rocky movies and just love the franchise?

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you! Yes, I grew up watching the first five films as a teenager (I was 16 when Rocky Balboa came out). On my channel I talk about what I like typically (Cobra Kai, Rocky, anime, video games, etc), and here we are!

[@carltaylor2975]

@@StryfetheWarrior That's awesome man. 😁

[@robertprice5243]

Well,the Rocky movies are like my kids...I love them all the same.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Excellent

[@therealmohammad]

But Rocky 5 is like that brother that you're stuck with

[@Akkatlah]

​@@therealmohammadThat uncle That smells funny

[@QueenShar]

Great video! ✨✨✨✨

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@niceguy60]

To be fair Adonis Creed was like a long lost relative to Rocky

[@ckenshin3841]

Adonis might have had the rockier start growing up in juvie. But he actually had a very solid upbringing living under his mom and had a stable albeit unfulfilling office job. Adonis did have more to lose, but it shows that he really wanted to fight to prove that he can go the distance to himself. While Tommy, he fought to prove himself to others

[@victorphan6274]

I have a curious question regarding Cobra-Kai Season-6. Who do you think should win The Sekei-Taikai ? Despite Miguel being my favorite of the younger cast, for me it should be Robby & Sam (if a Female Division is added). Also, here is my ranking of all The Rocky/Creed-Films including an extra non-Rocky Movie as there is a boxing film that stars Slyvester Stallone 1. Rocky (1976)= A+ 2. Creed (2015)= A 3. Rocky-Balboa (2006)= A 4. Creed-II (2018)= A- 5. Rocky-II (1979)= A- 6. Rocky-IV (1985)= B+ 7. Rocky-III (1982)= B+ 8. Rocky-V (1990)= C 9. Grudge-Match (2013)= D.

[@MarkelScott100]

My opinion robby he hasnt gotten a dub yet it completes his arc the most for me

[@OSCARESCAPA]

Everyone is saying great points Im just going to add one more... When Rocky mentored Tommy he had just recently retired from one of the most spectacular fights in that universe's boxing history... everyone was still considering Rocky the best fighter ever and everyone could still believe (in that universe) that Rocky could beat up any fighter.... hell Rocky came back to the ring probably a decade after the events on this movie (again we are all talking about the reality inside that universe).... so exactly because of all this, when Tommy became champion, absolutely everyone wanted to see Rocky beat up Tommy because in the minds of everyone Rocky was still the best boxer in the planet... they were just too close as fighters to not develop a rivalry.... now add what everyone is saying jealousy, immaturity, traumas from Tommy and the fight between both was almost inevitable with a character like Tommy.... NOW... when Adonis Creed became champion absolutely nobody in that universe would have believed that Rocky could beat up any boxer, it was extremely clear to everyone that Rocky at that point was an old retired boxer who almost nobody knew if he was still alive!... Zero chances of a fighter rivalry would have developed

[@tombailey837]

Unpopular opinion: I prefer Rocky V to Rocky IV. I feel like V was more grounded and humble in comparrison and it felt like a nice attempt at a step back to the first 2 films in terms of heart. With IV, when it took on the whole 'Cold War' 'US VS USSR' theme I just think it went political when it didn't need to. I couldn't tell if it was a political drama or a film about avenging a loved ones death.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Yeah, I say Rocky IV is when the series started to "jump the shark." It's a good film and one of the most successful films financially in the franchise, but it also is mostly montage and certainly a product of the times.

[@lexkanyima2195]

@@StryfetheWarrior no, it didn't jump the shark, it tells a story about to avenge his friend's loss

[@IamBOGARDSTYLEZ11]

Good breakdown

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Thank you!

[@TheDualHero15]

I wish Tommy and Adonis met each other in a movie. We're definitely living in the bad timeline.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

It certainly would've been cool

[@jorgebersabe293]

​@@StryfetheWarrior Specially if we consider that Tommy is a dark reflection of Adonis. Tommy is what Adonis could have been had Mary Anne never raised him.

[@dimebrad2760]

Tommy Gunn is pretty cool. I always liked Rocky 5. Maybe because i was a kid about the age of his sons character at the time when i watched in the early 90s.

[@Monomonkee]

Can u make a vid one cobra kai season 6

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Won't be making any videos on CKS6 until we get more information, or a teaser or trailer

[@Monomonkee]

@@StryfetheWarrior ok. Thanks

[@therealmohammad]

@@Monomonkee What do you want conspiracies? Give the guy a break

[@str8ballinonyou]

I'm a supporter of both rocky 5 and karate kid 3 haha. Just because I liked the themes explored in both. Especially in KK3 when Pat M told Daniel when he was getting rocked that it was ok to be afarid,but not to get lost it. Rocky 5 was definitely rough but the MMA street fight was just brutal.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Yeah, Miyagi's "Must not give into fear" is one of the highlights of Karate Kid 3 for me.

[@jaggedj2510]

Rocky 5 is not a great movie but it’s still underrated.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed

[@NickTheStallion]

Since you mentioned Buddy Marcell, would be very interesting to bring George Washington Duke back to the franchise and make them rivals, he was one of the best things about Rocky 5, just like Terry Silver was in The Karate Kid Part 3 and the writers made us realize it in Cobra Kai in a phenomenal way. It's a shame we'll probably never see or heard about Tommy Gunn again, considering Sly's prejudice towards the fifth film and Morrison's death.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed, it'd be interesting to see Duke back in the franchise

[@NickTheStallion]

@@StryfetheWarrior Definitely! Have you read the Rocky V novelization? I got to read a few things about it, but, never the whole book! There must be some interesting stuff in there, I remember reading about Rocky going back to looking for a job with Tony Gazzo again and find out that he was murdered and Adrian being pregnant with a baby girl too, maybe it could have been part of the original script.

[@WORKSbaby]

I love rocky 5 tho

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Seeing it now compared to when I was a teenager, it does have its moments that are good. I think if they hadn't cut so much and more of the script was worked on (it definitely feels "rushed" compared to the other movies), it could've been so much better. The alternate/deleted scenes also add more depth and we also see more of Rocky focusing more on Tommy than his own son.

[@SliCooper]

I think the one major difference between the two, which you pointed out, was the fact that growing up Tommy never had the idea positive role model and Creed had someone who saw he needed help as a kid. As well as, Tommy was getting high on the idea rich lifestyle while Creed, in the end, wanted to make sure he remembered where he came from.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Bingo

[@JohnSmith-zw8vp]

Oh it's no exception...Tommy just got lured away by the wrong kind of teacher! Not a teacher in the literal school sense mind you but someone who taught him an alternate route to the title...which turned out to be all wrong.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Fantastic point

[@Kncperseus]

Tommy deserves blame for being a bad student - but I will also blame Rocky a little too. Rocky takes up coaching Tommy in Rocky V - a movie where the plot opens up with Rocky announcing his retirement, only to find that Paulie made some stupid investments and Rocky is now essentially broke. So, a significant part of Rocky's motivation in training Tommy was to recoup his lost wealth. Not calling him crazy, but Rocky definitely wanted to earn some money to ensure a stable life for himself and his family - and that, I feel, corrupted his relationship with Tommy to a level. With Donny, it was different. Rocky had no incentive for financial stability at that time and the only reason he agrees to train Donny is because he wanted to repay his debt to Apollo. In addition, his performance as a coach, too, was better because he was older, wiser and calmer - more suitable for coaching another than he was back during Rocky V. Plus, he had little distractions - his restaurant business was going well and he could devote himself to training Donny a lot more.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's a good point

[@lexkanyima2195]

Rocky was inexperienced as a trainer

[@Lupacool]

Poor Tommy…😢

[@ReelStory]

As a kid I always wondered what happened to Tommy afterwards since he's still technically the Heavyweight Champion despite how the movie ends.

[@sonyx4500]

He lost against Union Cane in the Rematch.

[@psreviews82]

George Washington Duke (aka Don King)was a great villain in Rocky V. I did a video over Rocky V on my channel.

[@James-cz4xv]

I thought rocky 5 was well coordinated. They couldn't have a ring fight because of rocky condition in the movie script as many know. So how else could the movie have been made

[@bunnyofdoom4501]

Tommy like the red head with the rack. And the $

[@kingdjack6]

Also Adonis did say during negotiations for the Pretty Ricky if it was any other trainer I wouldn't take that fight same as Rocky tried to do with the 1st Apollo and Dixon fight.

[@Dan-de5ek]

I don’t understand the hate behind rocky 5. I love how in the end after the fight rocky accepts he has nothing to lose and becomes happy again

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Would've been a much better film if they hadn't cut so much out. Unfortunately a lot of the modern Rocky and Creed films suffer from this

[@hardondong3550]

As someone who only saw the first rocky movie after seeing creed 3 I never knew it was a spin off of rocky.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Yep. Definitely recommend watching all the movies.

[@llynellyn]

I would argue that Tommy did have a bad teacher, Rocky succeeded in teaching him additional boxing skills but failed to teach him life lessons or stop Duke from corrupting him. It can be argued that Rocky tried, but also that he did a **** poor job of it. Tommy wasn't technically a bad person, just a person easily lead/manipulated like Johnny Lawrence. Duke managed to wrap him round his finger with ease similar to what Kreese did to Johnny and Rocky had no idea how to handle it.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Agreed

[@johnrife7134]

Rocky 5 as a concept was actually lifted from a short story. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly but I think Stallone was sued for plagiarism. However the story didn't really gel with the cannon and where the character of rocky was in his life. So it was modified. In the original the trainer was still a fighter and younger than the Rocky character. And the student he had under his wing rose up to equal standing as his trainer. Then comes an opportunity for a title shot but they have to fight each other to see who advances. The surrogate Rocky is torn between getting one more shot or seeing his student get his shot.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

That's interesting. I haven't heard that before

[@lexkanyima2195]

So why is Tommy's opponent more hand-picked ?

[@jaylerd]

There’s a deleted scene in Rocky VI where he tells Steps about him, I think recalling it as a failure on his part.

[@Friskkkkkkk]

Tommy had so much potential

[@BoliveiraNTPW]

Rocky 5 is not longer canon to the rocky storyline, but it shows how a cocky fighter can be good but also bad not only for others but to himself. Then you have Creed, of course he wants to be the Best boxer he can be, but he is humble and in the Creed 3 trailer he talks about respecting Rocky. He is humble, and that made him better.

[@StryfetheWarrior]

I'd like to consider it still canon; I think it may have officially been recorded though but I'm unsure. I think Rocky Balboa and the Creed films were great amendments to the franchise

[@robertisham5279]

That's true at all it's still canon.

[@godfather71190]

Rocky 5 is still canon to the series he's not super rich like in 3 and 4.

[@michaelgriger586]

Rocky V will always be my 2nd favorite movie out of the franchise!! After the 1st one of course...

[@viccreed9999]

I really like this movie a lot. It explores concepts of what can happen when young and inexperienced boxers fall under the spell of glamour but dont understand it is a dirty business filled with people who dont have your best interests in mind. Rocky had Mick Apollo had Duke But what happens when you get a George Duke pulling your strings.

[@jetfire1153red]

There is another key difference between Adonis Creed and Tommy gun, Adonis asked Rocky politely and with respect whereas Tommy gun just pushy, insisting while making it sound like Rocky owed him something when Rocky never actually met the bloke before. So the key difference between the two men is their attitude.

[@Nathan19863]

Other way around, rewatch creed and rocky 5 and you'll see Tommy just wanted a chance to train with his idol and even told rocky if he did something he didn't like he would leave and not bother him. While on the other hand Adonis just kept pushing and wouldn't take no for a answer when the were at Adrian's. I think tommy gets a bad rep when he really doesn't deserve it.

[@jetfire1153red]

@@Nathan19863 How many times did Rocky tried to shut down Tommy gun before he started training him anyway because Tommy gun wouldn’t take no for an answer.

[@Nathan19863]

@@jetfire1153red but you got to remember the first time tommy was interrupted by Duke and rocky didn't say that he wasn't interested the first time, he just needed to clear his head. As for the second time when rocky said he wasn't interested and Tommy lost his cool you could tell rocky was thinking about Tommy's offer. And the third and final time Tommy said if rocky turned down his offer after hearing what he had to say then he wouldn't bother him again. Now when you look at when adonis and rocky first meet adonis keeps pushing rocky to train him, like saying "I'll meet you at mickys gym" when rocky obviously said no.

[@kingsampson2646]

Rocky 5 actually was my favorite as a kid, the street fight was different and 🔥

[@NeonLeonNoel]

So what was the quote that was used in the movie and irl?

[@StryfetheWarrior]

Mickey's speech, essentially word-for-word was taken from Cus D'Amato. You can easily find it if you google "cus mike tyson speech."