Why US Special Forces Switched to the SCAR (briefly)

[@Taskandpurpose]

Get your own Goat Model Today! Shop here: bit.ly/3Eh1z6d

[@Robloxman560]

w

[@ProfessionalPFChangsExpert]

W

[@jackbiliny2435]

In that washing video i think that is Bren 2 but im not 100% sure...

[@undefined7141]

19th 18Deeboi here. I can say two things, 1. Change your socks 2. The scar is trash.

[@JohnZ556]

Correction： The pressure washing was on Bren2.🤣 Monolithic rail is still not a standard feature nowadays, you pretty much have to go with LMT for that. Plus the rail on Scars16/17 are too short for full length barrel, you will likely want to add an extended rail and/or a bipod to help not rest the barrel on objects while shooting. SCAR 16/17 barrel is held in by only 4 screws through the receiver, not 6, so 2 on each side. The super gassy 'M4's shown are mostly HK416. (I can hear HK fanbois 'This is less gassy than M4/DI !', while paying for ultra-cucked and super expensive MR556)

[@PolenarTactical]

1:15 - those are not a SCAR rifles, those are BREN 2 rifles from CZ

[@mitchjames9350]

These modular rifles all look the same.

[@cocobearnoski]

apparently those bren 2s are great, i should get one

[@rays5073]

Didn't expect Ziga here, but happily surprised

[@matthewh271]

I thought I was the only one to notice it lol thanks man

[@PolenarTactical]

@@matthewh271 yeah, these things bother me more that they should 😅

[@saber1885]

don't know much about US Weapon Development but one time I saw this cat in front of the ice cream store and it let me pet it.

[@Mumbamumba]

Hero.

[@rob6850]

I got a *scar* from cutting my pinky on a cat food can 27 years ago.

[@alantaylor353]

A truly wonderful moment to tell your grand kids about.! 😉 😉

[@ShadowReaper-pu2hx]

I saw a bird on the floor that just stood still while I pet it (maybe its wings weren’t working, IDK).

[@azkrouzreimertz9784]

This is the kind of thinking that drives humanity forward, thank you for sharing your story.

[@darklyripley6138]

I used a MK17(Scar H with shorter barrel) while in Afghanistan. It was a great rifle. Accurate, light, easy to use. The only real issue is carrying 7.62NATO. I was only able to carry 5-6 mags at a time. But that’s not a dock against the rifle itself.

[@darklyripley6138]

@@northscrow9316 Both are long short stroke gas piston rifles. The H(MK17) is a 7.62x51 caliber rifle. And the L(MK16) is a 5.56 rifle.

[@robertcunningham9626]

Thank you for serving in the armed forces helping to defend our great country!

[@grahamconquer8117]

How could u use a scar if u only had 30mags but a7.62 rifle

[@darklyripley6138]

@@grahamconquer8117 What? The Scar H takes 20 round mags. And I only carried 6 of them during the brief period I had it.

[@haroombrother]

​@@grahamconquer8117????? Scar H got 20 rounds mag the 30 one was Scar L

[@Militaryarmschannel]

Great info. Just a FYI, the rifles at 1:20 are Bren 2's. They are a knock off of the SCAR but they're Czech, not Belgian. There are a ton of them showing up in Ukraine.👊

[@acemarshals3211]

Yes foreign fighters are often given the cz bren in Ukraine

[@pimptasticone]

@militaryarmschannel - "knockoff of a SCAR"? No, SCAR was a program at USSOCOM and the Bren 2 was designed along those same requirements. If Colt made it's SCAR entry available to the market, would be a knockoff of the FN?

[@zharnama]

Exactly!

[@asdf-sr1ny]

Did this guy really claim bren is a SCAR knock off lmao. A true firearms expert

[@acemarshals3211]

@@asdf-sr1ny ikr

[@emptyforrest]

The SCAR is one of the dopest looking guns out there. And being cool adds to combat effectiveness. You can quote me on that.

[@hildalaw7627]

It's all about the confidence boost

[@331SVTCobra]

The charging handle issue is totally the fault of the program office. Operators needed to be involved at the EMD phase and that is where this issue should have been captured. Even if the requirements called for this type of charging handle, the systems engineers should have done their job and revised the requirement. If that actually was a requirement, it's a bad one. A requirement shouldn't be a design solution.

[@BravoOneCharlie]

They did remedy that on newer models. You can even see in this video on the small PDW shown later in the video that those SCARS don't reciprocate.

[@tommccormick9290]

I find that hard to believe the M4 had 882 stoppages out of 6000 rounds tested. That's almost one every 7 shots! That's got to be a mistake. I've put 3000+ through my M4 style rifle with zero stoppages.

[@CorgiWrangler]

​@tommccormick9290 you have to assume the testers were given a wink and a nudge to really shoot the m4 under less than ideal conditions...

[@abcdefbcdefg8352]

@@tommccormick9290 you would figure that being 4 times more reliable wouldve trumped most of the other issues, until they stopped juicing their results, lol

[@uummmnocoolnames]

You're missing the part where the SCAR was the only rifle considered for the program BECAUSE they followed the obviously stupid requirement. There's a reason "the customer is always right" is a business adage - if you tell them they're wrong, they tend to spend their money where someone will tell them what they want to hear.

[@GeraudRulz]

The SCAR-Light isn't enough of an improvement over the M4 to justify the cost but I can definitely see why the SCAR-Heavy is so much more of an improvement over the M14 rifle, which is basically just a modernised M1-Garand with a box magazine.

[@zoiders]

It was an improvement over SR-25s more than anything. They were too fussy with ammunition. The SCAR-H eats almost any 7.62.

[@mertc8050]

Rm 227 is veerrryyyy gud tho

[@raspiankiado]

It's basically an FAL. No literally, internal-wise, same chambering, same except that HORRID furniture.

[@AFreeThinkingDawg09]

@@zoidersit’s definitely not an improvement over the sr25. It’s one of the most accurate DMR in the Arsenal, leaps and bounds over the scar. Have you ever shot a scarH? They’re not very accurate or pleasant to shoot compared to a DI 762 and they’re huge in comparison with all the plastic. Definitely wasn’t an improvement but it wasn’t supposed to be replacing the sr25 anyways

[@slaytanic921]

@@zoidersscar h also eats optics

[@fallskjermjeger.]

I bought a new scar16s right after I ETSed last year, I just wanted it, and it's better than I expected. I love the later production M4a1 I had in the 82nd , so I didn't see a need for an overhaul but this rifle is fun and cool so they got my money, and thankfully no buyer's remorse.

[@neiljasonvillanueva1864]

Was your later prdn M4A1 a SOCOM/heavy barrel or still gov't profile barrel.

[@masimak]

I was contracted in mid 2011 by an arms manufacturer in Gilbert AZ to reverse the SCAR poly Lower and modify it suitable for machining in 7075-T7, with goal of optimizing use of PMAGS and obviously prevent any jamming. They made prototype and eventually production units.

[@dbSteelyPhil]

Quentin

[@gdlb-tg5cy]

Happy to hear about my hometown on your channel! 🇧🇪🤝🇺🇸

[@jasonroberts9357]

God bless you all! Much respect from this Texan!

[@adanielweaver]

The SCAR H really is a miracle with how light the recoil feels. It shoots almost like an AR 15. I've always wanted one, and hope to someday get a civilian version.

[@timwooten7165]

So pricy though

[@a-a-ron8437]

because its heavy ASF

[@Kindjester79]

Loud af tho lol

[@cmangrum1]

Get ready to pay $3k+

[@adanielweaver]

@cmangrum1 I'm ready as soon as California's ridiculous AWB gets overturned...

[@Chiller11]

Great episode. FN changed the reciprocating charging handle to non reciprocating awhile ago. They also made modifications to prevent the double feeds. Both the 7.62 and 5.56 versions are excellent rifles but they are a tad expensive.

[@flexinclouds]

Arent the new Sig spears like $10-15k each now? I think cappy said something like that back when he reviewed them😳😅

[@annekedebruyn7797]

I also love how they fixed the handle. It was such as simple and elegant solution that I often wonder if it truly was a fix or that it was the original intended design.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@annekedebruyn7797I think in previous videos, the side charging handle was suppose to be it, but the Military testers kept grabbing for the T handle on muscle memory and Sig added that feature back, but that was also 2-3 years ago so YMMV.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@annekedebruyn7797If you're talking about the SCAR, it was purely a case of being told the SCAR will have this feature, but it was FN that put it in that position where you could jam it in a certain spot behind cover or get "SCAR Thumb" from how you held the rifle.

[@ratagris21]

Tad expensive is an understatement. They're way overpriced on the civilian market. Starting at $3k for a rifle is too much money.

[@wolflegion_]

1:28 cappy’s face whilst riding the thunder has me dying hahaha

[@rascalmatt6713]

Former Ranger here. I was literally at the meeting the end of 2007 when our entire Battalion was briefed on the new, incoming SCAR family of rifles. Yes, the 7.62x39 option was discussed at that time. "Battle field pick up" i believe they coined the concept. I'm long since out now... i have my own 16 and 17 and BLOCK 2. What i don't like about ANY of those rifles is the recoil impulses. With the SCAR rifles you have that large reciprocating mass coming forward, creating a recoil impulse that is not desirable when shooting while standing, unsupported. With the Block 2, it's not as pronounced but it's still a "Carbine length gas system" which is much worse than Mid length or longer systems when firing from a standing position or even the prone. If i went into combat again, i'd rather just take a BCM Mk2 16" mid length with either picatinny or MLOK and CHF chrome lined barrel and some kind of can. I shoot a lot of long range now and the 16" barrel on the SCAR17 just doesn't cut it IMHO. It's not accurate enough either IMHO, nor does it have the velocity i'd want. If i'm shooting 7.62x51 in combat in a support by fire role or even as an assaulter, i want a 20" barrel. hitting targets consistently beyond 800 yards with a 16" barrel in that .308 caliber is not ideal.

[@icebite9888]

is this your honest opinion?

[@icebite9888]

@@rascalmatt6713 chill, i was making a joke about you saying IMHO twice in the same sentence xD

[@ILruffian]

Spot on. From what I've read, the SCAR-H is used when specing optics proposals. Because if that thing can't destroy a scope with recoil, nothing can.

[@vojvodaveleski]

😊

[@geronimo5537]

for mid to long range never less than a 18" barrel. its the golden curve ratio in 308. I could say the same in 5.56 except its not for long range.

[@nooddles12]

Scar, brother, help me…

[@joshuayarrington9684]

Long live the M4. AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

[@weresteres]

​@@joshuayarrington9684then what gun is simba?

[@davidbachtel1721]

If you know, then you know

[@segasonic4952]

Fortnite.

[@jmc4935]

I always love your ASVAB jokes / references! They always make me lol. Thank you for keeping it fun and light, while teaching us plebs. Love your passion and humility! All the best and keep up the great work.

[@thomasf.9869]

Firearms manufacturing in the area where Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands come together actually predates the industrial revolution by centuries. The bottom floor of the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam is full of muskets and flintlock pistols manufactured in this area, dating back to the Eighty Years War which started in 1556.

[@juanblanco7898]

That's cool

[@joostdriesens3984]

The Dutch military had problems at the time to get enough pikemen for their pike-and-shot formations as most soldiers preferred the cool new firearms! You don't have get up close in the fight and it creates a big boom.

[@doelbaughman1924]

Wow! Did not know that. Thanks for sharing! Wish I'd visited when i was stationed in GE.

[@thomasvan7738]

I read that Liege, the city where FN is headquartered, has had weapon production since the Middle Ages (swords and such)

[@Jugement]

Netherlands were in their golden age back then, they were a world class superpower with their navy only second to the british, and had the original and biggest East India Company. Its absolutely not comparable to today in all honnesty

[@77gravity]

The 7.62x51 NATO is a hard round to beat. Sure, it's heavy to carry, so your ammo count is lower, but it is SO effective.

[@removedot]

the new round seems like it finally really has it beat but we shall see. The pressure that round can put out is pretty crazy

[@darklyripley6138]

I carried a MK17 while overseas. 7.62 sucks. The difference between 7.62 and 5.56 is minimal at best. And having less rounds means you can’t fight as long. A real firefight isn’t like a movie. You fire a lot of rounds to gain fire superiority. And even with hour long fights, you might never hit someone. I switched to a different gun after my second firefight with the MK17, because I ran black on ammunition.

[@patta8388]

@@darklyripley6138 I carried a G28 on my 2nd tour. The difference is the better penetration and better performance at longer ranges. I don't know how you guys used your MK17's, our G28's and HK417's were used as DMR's.

[@Henrythef1rst]

Was not expecting to hear you call out my local range at the end! Great work - shout out from here in Pburg!

[@epicgaming11195]

6:31 ironically, the scar is (or was, i haven't seriously played fortnite in years) one of the most iconic guns in fortnite, and the m4 one of the most used meta guns in tarkov

[@smile4cs]

was gonna comment this

[@danielaramburo7648]

It’s a good rifle, an improvement over the M4, but only a minor improvement, not enough to complicate the supply chain and logistics.

[@808INFantry11X]

Yeah thats been the issue with every rifle so far especially ones in 5.56 caliber in some areas they are better then the M4A1 but not outright better they excel in certain areas but unless it's an overall no question better its just not worth it. I even doubt the M7 rifle I going to replace the M4A1 entirely just because overall as standard service weapons its still meets the demands right now and in the near future.

[@pnastysavage5510]

​@@808INFantry11XRead about this in the army times back in 2010, Socom found it wasteful, considering the army already paid for M4A1's at no cost to sof budget.

[@guyman7776]

That was basically what killed the XM8 as well. It was good but not so good that it was worth replacing all of the M4s and M16s for.

[@pnastysavage5510]

@@guyman7776 That's right ! Honestly all of those weapons while excellent, were a waste of money considering that the M4 can be improved/upgraded to meet the needs of the modern millitary without retooling/retraining, just look at the new gieslie upper/lower improvment program for socom.

[@guyman7776]

@@pnastysavage5510 Sopmod really was a game changer

[@danielcamunez1777]

I love when you make videos about firearms. Keep them coming.

[@WOLVERINE95899]

Outstanding video Chris ! I worked at Aberdeen on the OCIW and we developed many versions of weapons slated to replace the M16/M4 platform. Most got past the development phase but were then dropped because of budget reasons in the end. The SCAR was darn lucky to actually make it that far.

[@nickf4333]

military budget? That’s hilarious

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@nickf4333Depends on which part of the military you're in. Just like Animal Farm, so divisions are more "equal" than others.

[@celmer6]

They didn't "Switch to the SCAR". They were testing and evaluating the SCAR. There's a HUGE difference between the two definitions.

[@leiac3163]

Great video!! Love how in depth this channel gets with its research!

[@richardsalazar4817]

Portugal went all in on the scar 16 and 17. On that note, the scar has definitely left its mark in the industry, with countries like Czech, Poland, and japan implementing design features in there newly developed rifles.

[@leileijoker8465]

Because they were transitioning from the G3. If an army already has AR type rifle as the mainline issued weapon, it makes no sense to switch to any other type of 556 rifle.

[@muhammadnursyahmi9440]

Poland's rifle are based on ACR, not SCAR

[@dewdew80]

Good enough to be considered by SOCOM while cheap enough because that same well-funded group eventually dumped them. I imagine countries with decent funds but more frugal militaries budgets would love to buy that sort of weapon at a discount.

[@muhammadnursyahmi9440]

@dewdew80 SOCOM only adopted SCAR-H version, because there are no other battle rifles that are as light as SCAR-H. SCAR-L was not adopted because it doesn't provide more advantages than a M4A1, especially SOPMOD program modernized the platform.

[@richardsalazar4817]

@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 the SCAR L is super light too, noticeably lighter then a SCAR H. I have no idea how much a M4A1 weighs in comparison to a SCAR L? I'll check it out though.

[@Fail.Better]

Thank you again for moving away from the "than you think" titles. Loving the new naming choices, it's much more accurate to the video itself.

[@zlpatriot11]

In the Tom Clancy Ghost Recon games, the SCAR is one of my favorite weapons to use.

[@jameslewis2635]

My gaming memory of the SCAR comes from the original Crysis.

[@st1ssl214]

@@jameslewis2635 the first crysis....man, thats a nostalgia hit

[@leonardosalcido821]

In the real life the scar my primary 🤙

[@SonOfTheChinChin]

yay video games = real life

[@briancooper2112]

Get laid.

[@shanebuechner1429]

Well done video. There is a great deal of mis-information regarding the Scar series of weapon. You did a good job of sorting it out. Thanks

[@WyattGHudson]

It’s always interesting looking at new kit, weapons, and even vehicles that we trial within the 75th Ranger Regiment. Even within the Battalions there is a lot of variation in terms of how we choose to utilize our gear. Marty mentioned that 3/75 got rid of theirs in 2010, at 1/75 we still had them in our inventory when I ETS’ed in 2017. In 2014-16 they were all the rage, and then guys rapidly stopped using them after training with another USASOC unit that strongly disliked them. I enjoyed the platform, but I think the Block 2 M4 (M4 with full length, free-floating quad rail) and successive Urgi are fantastic all around work horse rifles. The SCAR is a fantastic rifle to have in the inventory as a contingency weapon based off of niche operational requirements, but beyond that supplemental role, a free-floated, quad rail M4 is a much better infantry rifle.

[@dannymcbas6130]

As a hungarian service member I can confirm that the CZ Bren 2 (wich copied FN’s homework in my opinion) has the exact same issues as the Scar

[@petrhanke8644]

Czech here: I heard that Bren 2 is a huge step up from Bren 1 but still feels kind of “meh” even to our soldiers so it is more than fair to call BREN platform as “we have SCAR at home”

[@dannymcbas6130]

@@hnojic one person of my squad had an issue that the rifle ejected live cartridge with an empty case. An other had double feed. One guy had his rifle broke into two pieces after he fell on it during a march.

[@Leroy-Jenkem]

based hungary

[@davidskr4924]

I would say that original CZ 805 BREN rifle copied FN SCAR. Bren 2 is more like copy of ACR.

[@WitchyWagonReal]

Well, in any event the “SCAR” covered in mud at the beginning of the video was a CZ Bren.

[@ca9968]

The Heavy version was also tested by the Brits to be used as a DMR, strangely it lost out to the LMT L129A1 due to it being too light... The Brits sure do love their troops lugging around the heaviest kit they can find...

[@gnarkiller]

I have a l129 clone I pieced together. It's a heavy gun but it runs like a champion. I'm hoping that Santa brings me a 6.5 creedmore barrel for Christmas

[@brighthought11]

I have owned the FN Scar17, x 2 actually, and a LMT is what I currently own, it does everything the Scar does and better except it is heavier. Scar is a nice gun, but there are better options: LMT, LWRC REPR, custom AR10 etc

[@ca9968]

@@josedorsaith5261 Ah yes, the grossly overweight "Civil Servant"...it doesn`t work and you can`t fire it...

[@zoiders]

It wasn't to do with that was it though. It was about the ability to accurately supress the enemy, as in rapid follow up shots. The SCAR was wanting in that department so the LMT won. The anti-Anglo bollocks you see trotted out by 100 yard flat range heroes is hilarious.

[@ca9968]

@@zoiders i`m not "Anti-Anglo"...i`m British, served 6 years as a steely eyed killer and full time bullet magnet in an infantry regiment based in the North West...and yes, you are correct, the follow up shots were an issue (as Ian McCollum mentioned in his video covering the LMT...) I also served 2 years in the South African infantry so have fought in urban and bush environments with them and know better than most that there`s more to marksmanship than 100 yard flat ranges... Now please do tell me how the L85 is a great weapon system having very probably never even held anything different... I`ll wait...

[@820hurleyj]

My 17S is my favorite rifle. I just happened to have it offered to me from my dealer because someone had ordered it and then canceled on him. So, it's also my most expensive rifle, but when I'm dead and gone, I'm taking it with me!

[@jakeyerzik2973]

Thanks!

[@Taskandpurpose]

Thank you good sir !

[@11bravoNRD]

Bought my 16S back in 2009. As stated there were issues with PMAGS double feeding but MAGPUL made changes to the design in version 3 that fixes that. Also there were forums online that showed how to mod gen 2 magazines that fixed the issue. Overall I can't complain about the rifle. It's accurate, comfortable, and trucks on like a champ.

[@TY-pf6vb]

The Scar will always have a special place in my heart I love this rifle in video games.

[@nicholascauton9648]

Same. There’s just something special about the SCAR (no pun intended). I wish both the SCAR-L and the SCAR-H were featured alongside one another in one game. Perhaps have them interchangeable depending on what components you may have on hand. When it comes to video games, I’m also a sucker of using two-weapon loadouts with both guns made from the same manufacturer. What I mean by this is if I was playing a shooter game like Call of Duty and famous FN firearms are featured in the game, I would make my loadouts look like this: Loadout 1 - SCAR-L + Five-seveN Loadout 2 - SCAR-H (DMR) + P90 These are just a couple of examples. Heck why not throw in M240s and M249s for good measure. I’m doing something similar for my Fallout 4 modded game and this book I’m writing. Except instead of FN Herstal guns getting the spotlight, it’s Sig Sauer. Specifically the Sig MCX Virtus, MCX Spear, MPX, and P320 being put front and center for the main characters who wield these firearms. But I do have my reasons for this which I will get into just in a bit. The story has a band of five individuals, all of which have different backgrounds but hail from two different worlds. The leader of the band is a young former Calivadan (post-apocalyptic city state in Southwest USA) Army Ranger who wields a Sig MCX Virtus as his primary and a Sig P320 as his sidearm. His name is Matt Santos and he takes inspirations from The Punisher and former Philippine President Rodrigo Roa Duterte. And as you may guess, yes his ethnicity is Filipino just like me. The lancer of the team is a young former FBI agent by the name of Maria Garcia. She carries a Sig MPX, a customized P320, and occasionally she may switch to a Sig MCX Spear for distant targets if needed. (The Spear in this universe is chambered in 7.62x51/.308 Winchester rounds) Though she has a bit less combat experience than Matt, she has uncanny marksmanship with a rifle. Supplemented with quite the good looks being that she’s one of those light-skinned Mexicans. Then the heart of the team is a teenage boy who has a knack for computers and culinary arts named “Miz.” Apart from computers and cooking, he also knows how to maintain weapons to working conditions and crafts bullets to however many is required for the mission provided he actually has the components. Think of him as the logistics guy who doesn’t really do much asskicking. Then the final two are basically a Nordic Viking warrior guy who uses an axe and a shield and wears padded mail armor and an Elf Sorceress who is eager to learn about modern science after discovering it for the first time when accidentally entering a more modern world. In fact she hopes to augment her magical prowess with science though this is not necessarily intended to make her godlike. After all, there has to be a balance in a team in order to fill specific roles. Anyway the reason why I chose Sig Sauer over FN Herstal to be put at the forefront for the main characters is due to recent attention they’ve been getting by the U.S. military and with some video games recently released. Basically because of the military’s new NGSW program and recent video games like Call of Duty and Escape From Tarkov featuring a few of Sig’s newest and hottest guns, I thought I’d jump in the bandwagon and give my own attention to Sig Sauer by featuring some of their guns in my story. Lastly before I close off, yes I have shot a few guns before. Specifically I’ve shot a Glock 19, 1911, and an AR-15. I’ve yet to fire Sig Sauer guns but considering how handsome their guns look and the reputation they’ve been getting as of late, I believe they might be the new iconic American firearms of the 21st century. Edit: After looking it up out of curiosity, it turns out there is a game that features both the SCAR-L and the SCAR-H alongside one another. And that’s Escape From Tarkov.

[@xocuts]

@@nicholascauton9648call of duty modern warfare 2 (2022) has a both the L and the H variant, I always used the H variant with a drum mag cus it hit like a truck.

[@SpectreStatus]

Insurgency

[@markchapman2585]

Great video Cappy. I can't say anything bad or good about the scar rifle I never shot one before. I can pretend I did like a lot of internet trolls do.

[@santanagamingcinema]

I wish I could shake your hand.

[@corporalpunishment1133]

Hay don’t you know that playing Call of duty gives you the right to have a opinion on every gun ever made don’t you.

[@markchapman2585]

@@corporalpunishment1133 lol

[@thekamotodragon]

the thing with this tho, is while i agree with your argument that many people online lie about experiences. I'll just say that the Scar is prob one of the worst rifles to say this about, at least in the US. It's like saying many commenters have never shot an AR before lol, they're both such common rifles at this point that it's extremely easy to have shot one before, obviously ARs more so but still like every gun store has a scar for rent so it's likely that any normal US citizen could've shot one before.

[@USpatriot87]

You showed a dirty CZ Bren rifle not a scar.

[@swordmaster2k1]

There's also a SCAR hanging next to the Bren undergoing the same process. I saw the initial video on Twitter and the camera focuses on the Bren but the SCARs are in there getting pressure washed too.

[@spawnpeekcentral1399]

@@swordmaster2k1 no those are both BREN 2s if you zoom in you can see that iconic waffle pattern on the mag well I’m not being a d!ck head, but I remember when I worked with the Czechs a few months back I legit thought it was a SCAR-L at first glance

[@QuickPLFMA]

@TaskandPurpose

[@jordynmarie7766]

fantastic video, I hope to see more like it!

[@luis.terron]

Great Video! Thanks for stopping by....really did have a blast (except for the pmags lol) !😂

[@carsonkouts]

I saw quite a few SCARs being used downrange. Primarily ranger regiment and group, and mainly the 17. saw a handful of 16s, surprisingly most of them were being used by the ANA and ANASF. Always cracked me up that the Afghans got to rock brand new SCARs while we had some beat to hell m4s

[@johnhenry4844]

Guess the Taliban rocking them now

[@justiron2999]

The US government will fight tooth and nail to arm the enemy and terrorists for some reason. While also persecuting it's won citizens.

[@BlackMarvel25]

Youre lucky i saw a POG unit using old m16's in Afghanistan. Like a2 ones. Lol

[@geronimo5537]

@@johnhenry4844 no worries they are selling off most of that to all the other countries we dont like to. a good 100 billion can be split a few ways.

[@alcerixxia614]

I think the Pmag issue is largely fixed by the release of the Gen 3 model, as the older Gen 2 model fiddled a bit too much with the bolt catch, causing some of the malfunctions (or that's what i heard). Also, it's funny that the Scar was required to have a reciprocating charging handle, when the ACR (or the Magpul Masada) developed about 3 years later already has this genius feature where the charging handle doesn't reciprocate but can still function as a forward assist when the bolt is not in battery.

[@timothypavlick76]

This is EXACTLY the type of video I love. Thanks a lot!

[@johnnycaps1]

Great video. Informative, interesting and fun.

[@machfiver753]

Gotta love that "display on shelf" feature that really sets it apart from those other ones that can't be put on a shelf.

[@PythonVs1]

1:14 thats a damn CZ BREN, not a FN SCAR😭

[@ahriboy]

Pretty any weapon inspired by FN SCAR modularity could be confused with the latter. Type 20, Remington ACR, BREN, GROT are looking like SCAR.

[@carl9091]

​@@ahriboythe bren was designed before the scar came out.

[@jic1]

And you spelled 'damn' wrong. Nobody's perfect.

[@jic1]

@@carl9091 Nope, SCAR was designed in 2004, BREN in 2009.

[@swordmaster2k1]

There's a SCAR in there as well. The original video clip on Twitter focuses on the Bren, but the SCARs are there too.

[@wesadams5128]

I love my scar. Gotta get the 308. I used to love the 5.56 but the 308 really isn't that much more on recoil and it's a one shot your done kinda caliber.

[@kentkagle3850]

Good SCAR research.impressive work... Again

[@wocker_tx_ranger]

There’s a reason this video has a 2 million views, great structure and research.

[@triadwarfare]

I always saw the SCAR on its desert paint. I think some game developers also never saw what the stock color of the SCAR as they always came with a desert tan color as the default skin.

[@danielhenderson8316]

You know a game developer is paying attention if they get the "50 Shades of FDE" on a SCAR correct.

[@triadwarfare]

@@danielhenderson8316 sorry but what is FDE? Google isn't giving me useful answers as they think it's a Full Disk Encryption

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@triadwarfare Flat Dark Earth. It's suppose to be a specific color the military requested, but each different part of the SCAR is a completely different color. In the last 10 years or so it's been jokingly referred to as "50 Shades of FDE."

[@valukk738]

The team guys I work with use them as DMRs with the 20 inch barrel but usually prefer the m110

[@darklyripley6138]

Seals don’t use M110’s in large numbers. They use Scar20’s, KAC SR25’s, and HK417’s(for DG). You say you work with team guys. What exactly are you?

[@mattmurphy7030]

@@darklyripley6138the SR25 is an M110 lol

[@darklyripley6138]

@@mattmurphy7030 No it’s not. The SR25 is an SR25. The M110 is an M110. There are differences between the two guns. Educate yourself.

[@mattmurphy7030]

@@darklyripley6138 the KAC SR25 is to the M110 as the armalite AR15 is to the M16. One is a product and the other is a military designation for a specification. Educate yourself.

[@darklyripley6138]

@@mattmurphy7030 Except it’s not. The original AR15, and M16 have differences. It’s not just the same gun with a military designation. The M110 has various different features than the SR25. Before the M110, various SOCOM units(primarily NSW and Delta) used SR25’s. This includes the SR25 under the military designation MK11. The M110 stems from the XM110 competition from the Army. KAC used the SR25 as a base, but added many features that the Army wanted. These features would go on to be added to future versions of the SR25. The current SR25’s being used are also different than both the M110 and original SR25’s. Things like new rails, barrels, muzzle devices, etc are now common place. And this doesn’t even include the OG SR25 from the 90’s. Nor does this include custom SR25’s, such as Britt Slabinksi’s rifle. So no, the two are not the same. Calling them the same would be like calling a Colt M4 the same as a KAC SR16.

[@mickeydapikey335]

Thanks Chris, this one in particular reminds me of 90s weekly TV series on Small Arms. Comforting nostalgia

[@Moody012577]

Hey Cappy! The look on your face when firing a weapon in auto is priceless. Enough to make your enemies nose bleed just by seeing it! Horrah!

[@wolf222555]

Always interesting, educational and well presented. Well done and a belated happy new year 2024!

[@oler777]

Rumor has it they never switched to the scar because FN couldn’t figure out how to paint anything the same color

[@globalchaos1984]

Lol

[@robertmccutcheon4103]

Also during this time various improvements were made to the m4 upper receivers and bolts that fixed a lot of the issues the rifle had meaning the scar L was no longer as needed

[@napoleonbonaparte1429]

Yeah, the block 2 replaced the mk 16.

[@doujinflip]

I once dropped a couple hundred dollars trying out a variety of pieces at Battlefield Vegas, and the SCAR impressed me the most in terms of controllability.

[@sde9023]

Shooting the 16 suppressed is even better, it's amazing how it dampens down the recoil impulse even more.

[@Ideo7Z]

Shot it there too and it was more controllable than my M16A1 when I was in.

[@Rudyelf1]

The guys there say that it is one of the most reliable and durable full autos.

[@restaurantattheendofthegalaxy]

I served with the M-16A2 and frequently went to the range at JBLM. I don’t know if we just had old ammo but double feeds were a daily occurrence. Range safety officers walked up and down with cleaning rods clearing misfeeds / double feeds. It’s actually a bit frightening to get a double feed on a rifle with an intensely hot barrel.

[@numericbin9983]

Back in 2016, during an open door event organised by the Belgian Army, I took the GN FNC (5.56, steel, the gun from heat), seemed a bit heavy. The FN SCAR-L in comparison seemed lighter and a bit like a toy. But even for me, a civilian who had never touched a weapon before, the ergonomics were superb. The guy (armorer from an infantry unit) was in love with the weapon.

[@djgesus]

And one of the problems with the FNC is that it’s all metal so unlike the scar. Which makes it heavier and when it’s cold it’s horrendous to hold

[@pinzgauerbelgium]

The Fnc we had with the P.Cdo had a lot of problems....you realy need to maintain that thing to prevent misfire and blocking.

[@davidbrown180]

I remember when the xm8 was suppose to be the next weapon.

[@dp2901]

I remember when the piston vs DI debate was going on. There was a lot of hype. I actually have an HK MR556. Robust gun, but very expensive and very heavy.

[@darklyripley6138]

I’ve used both the MK17 and HK416 while overseas contracting. Both are great rifles. But the HK416 is heavy, and it’s a pain to carry 7.62.

[@cpeabody85]

Thank you for this, was curious why it seemed to appear and disappear fairly quickly. Will be interesting to see if the new weapons the military is picking up will end up having a similar fate

[@danielhenderson8316]

Probably will. I don't think anyone will go back to an M14-style battle rifle for the standard rifle, although I'd like to see what a hybrid cartridge 5.56 would do out of a Spear LT type rifle.

[@0hioboy]

That's why they are in 6.8. It's in between 5.56 and 308. Still better range and penetration that 5.56 but not quite a battle rifle. These new weapons will be needed for future "near-peer" advisories. Especially the new LMG chambered in 338 lapua

[@fnkdtnk]

@@0hioboywhat I’d like to see with 5.56 is taking the technology that was put into the 6.8 furry, and put it into the 5.56. Imagine a 77 otm moving 3,300 fps out of a 14” barrel. (Or something of that nature).

[@JZ909]

​@@0hioboy6.8 x 51 is essentially just a screaming hot, necked down 7.62 x 51, with a redesigned case to take all the pressure. It's very similar in terms of kinetic energy imparted to the bullet, and consequently, recoil. The best way to describe it would probably be a 21st century battle rifle, improving on the .308s armor penetration. However, it comes with all the traditional battle rifle problems: heavy recoil, heavy weapons and heavy/bulky ammo. 6.5mm Grendel, or my favorite, 6mm AR, are better examples of in-between rounds. Much better ballistic performance than 5.56, but without the armor penetration of 6.8 x 51, and kinetic energy (recoil) falling about halfway between the two.

[@theimmortal4718]

Not adopting the scar16 says nothing bad about the rifle. It just says so much about how good the M4A1 is

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

I just noticed I took those pics at 14:49! Logar 2015. I wanted to compare a team gun (SFODA 3122) to a regular army M4. The M4 with VCOG That was mine!

[@casinodelonge]

I recall when the British Army transitioned from the SLR to the SA80, our guys were complaining in a certain conflict they were outranged by the AK's of their opponents and so soon started to carry SLR's on patrols again.

[@mitchjames9350]

The commonwealth countries should of adapted the SLR’s into marksman rifles.

[@danielhenderson8316]

While the SA80 has had a questionable history, the 5.56 out of a 20 inch barrel should outrange a 7.62x39. 7.62x54R is another beast entirely.

[@Legitpenguins99]

The FAL had some inherant accuracy issues that prevented it from being a accurate marksman rifle. That's why the British didn't convert it into a DMR

[@zoiders]

Despite its teething problems problematic L85s were weeded out of service and there is no way the 20" L85 with its X4 optic was outranged by AKs. The range drum goes to 500 and it will shoot that far and beyond. When it comes to an actual sharpshooter rifle the SLR was never good enough.

[@kiwigrunt330]

@@zoiders Indeed, for all the problems the first iteration of the L85 had, accuracy was never one of them. The current A3 is supposed to be even more accurate and consistent with its stiffened receiver, free floating barrel and far better Elcan optic with holdovers to 800. The SLR/FAL is probably to least accurate 'battle' rifle to push into service as a DMR. Those beautiful battle rifles have earned their place in history, but they should never have existed in the first place. They were a good answer to a question that should never have been asked. A bit like the BAR.

[@LondraCalibro9]

only ever tried the Scar H - super fun and felt good.....but damn, that pricetag.

[@annekedebruyn7797]

I wonder if the 'issues' with the SCAR was (partly) the reason why the HK416/HK417 became so popular world wide. The 416 platform had pretty much all the things the SCAR brought to the table but with the added benefit in being very similar to the M4 handling wise.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Like the M4, the 416 was a modification of an existing rifle while the SCAR was a clean sheet design. Don't forget H&K had similar problems with the G36 that early M4s had during the GWOT that could probably have been fixed with a thicker barrel (just like the M4).

[@skinWalkman]

And yet operators complained about it as well. Even after it was adopted by the marine corps, sf rejected it and complained that it was too heavy and stayed using block 2s.

[@armynurseboy]

And you could literally upgrade all existing M16/M4 to 416 configuration with a simple upper receiver swap.

[@darklyripley6138]

@@skinWalkman SF didn’t reject it. It was never really on the table to begin with. The 416 was aimed at Delta from the very beginning, and DG followed. I used the 416 while overseas. It’s a good gun, but it is heavy. Mine weighed nearly as much as a PKM. You have to remember that the point of the 416 was to have a reliable short barreled rifle. SF was primarily using 14.5’s at that time, and were not as interested in SBR’s as other units.

[@skinWalkman]

@@darklyripley6138 I remember fondly when the Raiders sent their rejection and it was open source. Their biggest complaint was weight and length. Having carried the rifle overseas as well, I will admit it’s a tad heavy. But I always fell under the assumption that if a grunt could hump it, raiders should have no problem. The range, accuracy, and reliability of the system offer more pros than cons.

[@OldManPaxusYT]

i'm not even a gun guy! Why did i watch this WHOLE video?!!?!?! Speaks to how well made this video is! Very intersting and no bs or fluff! Good stuff! 👍'd

[@expo2000000]

I always thought the SCAR system was an interim rifle because the USM was considering re adopting 7.62 or larger caliber...

[@briancooper2112]

7.62 for usmc? No

[@danielhenderson8316]

It was a SOCOM request for rifles in 5.56 and 7.62x51 to fix issues SOCOM was having with the M4 that the Army later fixed when regular troops had the same issues. The 7.62 worked from Day 1 and was legitimately better than the M14 and AR-10 variants that were used while the 5.56 didn't and wasn't fully adopted.

[@Crawdoodle]

@@briancooper2112um… yes? Lol

[@Crawdoodle]

@@danielhenderson8316ar10 uses 7.62 lol

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@Crawdoodle I was talking about the SCAR-H in 7.62 out performing the AR-10. The 5.56 comment was directed to the SCAR-L.

[@crandall777]

Another fine video. As a senior retired non-veteran ,I learn so much about everything from your publication.

[@napalm5941]

Im from Portugal and I've been to some military shows and I remember when I was 10 I picked up a G3 (at the time the service weapon) and just 5 months ago I picked up both the SCAR L and H. Sure, I grew up, got stronger and all, but boy lemme tell ya, even when I asked the soldiers what was the biggest difference between the G3 and the H they all said: "The G3 is a dinossaur, a heavy one at that, this one (SCAR H) is just a bit 'big boned' but way lighter."

[@justinwilliams7148]

A new administration was elected in 2008, passed a budget in 2009, and implemented in 2010 that cut SOCOM's budget by 15% across the board and ordered an extra battalion to be trained and equipped at every group. SOCOM plays politics too. By not explaining this in their press releases, SOCOM deliberately screwed FN over knowing that people without the full picture would blame FN and the SCAR platform if they just called it "limited funds" rather than blame a new administration's budget cuts and personnel strain. FN's USA branch started to fight back with its own press releases, but FN's HQ hushed them because it would jeopardize future contracts. The SCAR does have its issues, but as FN's former SCAR program director pointed out, SOCOM already could get M4s and M16s for (free) by acquiring them under Big Army's budget. Any rifle that became the SCAR, no matter if it was an AR-clone or not would have suffered a severe cutback or cancellation compared to $0. It's a miracle that the SCAR program survived at all past 2010.

[@sienega4625]

Excellent information.......excellent video.

[@baldric44]

My old SLR never let me down, you get hit by 7.62mm you stay hit

[@psc19933]

my brother was CCT and they definitely used them. i have pictures of him with a suppressed Scar H. He said he never saw any type of SCAR L.

[@kocharjm]

You should do a video on the ACR. I remember when that was supposed to be the weapon of tomorrow and it was in literally every aspect of media till like 2010, and then it vanished overnight. Now it seems like just a minor footnote in firearms history.

[@seanoreiley48]

Wasn’t there supposed to be a company manufacturing the ACR again?

[@kocharjm]

@@seanoreiley48 yes, you are correct. The last scholarly article I saw, had Bushmaster looking into re-creating it. However, they found out the price of manufacturing it was still going to be like 3k instead of the promised 1500 bucks, so it seemed like they were shelving the idea for now.

[@Lawranceinsein]

@@seanoreiley48Just get the PSA Jakl

[@yionnecantu]

( ​@@kocharjm) Bushmaster has the ACR for 6k on their website. I'm glad to see Bushmaster is back in business. My Law Enforcement Agency used them in early 2000s. ( Patrol Rifles)

[@rustycheese1787]

@@seanoreiley48 Magpul designed it and sold the rights to Bushmaster and Remington since they aren't a weapons manufacturer. Remington made the military/LEO version (modified to be about 2+ lbs lighter, customizable grips, moved the charging handle position, fully automatic, etc.) and Bushmaster made the civilian model. You can find them all over nowadays in many different variants and calibers. Some parts are hard, if not impossible, to find like the 6.8mm conversion kits. Most people have gunsmiths to the swap for them.

[@MC-gj8fg]

I don't know about less recoil. I'm no expert, but after shooting an m4, AK, and scarH side by side, I can say that the scar's recoil was outrageous compared to the other two guns. It wasn't even close. It may be that a need exists for a cartridge with more stopping power, but there's got to be a sweet spot option. How does the 6.5 or 6.8's recoil compare ?

[@mikeboone4425]

One o your best video's keep it up . Happy Trails

[@WindFireAllThatKindOfThing]

The problem with our rifle selection is the enduring FOMO fantasy that AK's 'always work' The M4 was always competing with a myth.

[@TrueHolarctic]

Ak always works because you have 2 of them

[@annekedebruyn7797]

Wait until they hear about this mythical blade from Japan! Everyone would have to wear a mall ninja katana then.

[@danielhenderson8316]

To be fair, the M4 had issues around 2001 that weren't discovered during peace time. The thin barrels were warping under heavy fire and Colt did have a run of defective bolts. Both problems were fixed quickly once it was regular Army having problems instead of just SOCOM using the M4 like an LMG.

[@kennyk541]

@@danielhenderson8316I thought they found out the issue was the barrels were fine it was because a bunch of gunk was getting around the gas tube port

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@kennyk541 It was probably an issue as well, but that's also where the SOCOM barrel profile came from. Most of what I mentioned came from Chis Bartocci at the Small Arms Solutions channel who worked for Colt during that time.

[@MoeZesy.woo7]

Wow...kinda impressive when you realise a country like Kenya uses it as it's main rifle

[@EmmanuelAU03]

@@DinoNucci because most people think africa is just dirt with nothing

[@MoeZesy.woo7]

@@DinoNucci coz despite the shortcomings Kenyan forces use it effectively as if it's the perfect weapon... it's amazing how they adapted to the rifle plus scars aren't cheap

[@Legalizeasbestos]

If the SCAR had a longer handguard to the end of the barrel, adjustable gas block and the damn charging handle didnt come flying back at you with every shot it would have likely replaced the M4. Until the Block II came out with full length rails nobody had that standard issue, adjustable gas blocks would have made suppressed shooting so much cleaner and the ridiculous charging handle that tries to break any misplaced fingers was so short sighted.

[@danielhenderson8316]

FN does make an extended handguard along with other 3rd pty vendors. I think if rounds didn't end up in the bolt channel and the BCG didn't destroy optics, it might have. As far as the charging handle, FN was told to put that in, but they weren't told where to put it.

[@Legalizeasbestos]

@@danielhenderson8316 I agree. It was half setup to fail because the army didn’t know what they really wanted

[@dreadpiratekeane]

PMAGS didn't work in our M4s either. You were pretty much guaranteed a feed jam before the mag was empty.

[@mattmurphy7030]

Which is why PMAGs are the standard now. Sounds legit

[@dreadpiratekeane]

@@mattmurphy7030 Because the military is famous for sound decision making right?

[@Negativvv]

Cappy is so chilled normally but he switches on when shooting with that stare down. Still got it...

[@mrmugatu1look638]

My unit had the SCAR in limited capacity back in the 2010ish timeframe but it wasn't really a significant improvement to the M4 so the necessity to field it unit wide wasn't really a thought. Good rifle for sure but not a significant improvement to justify replacing what already works and works quite well.

[@lamlam2750]

Why use the SCAR when you could just slap more attachments on an M4? I think we should go with an under barrel tactical can opener next.

[@LightMCXx]

Hk416 better

[@LightMCXx]

Plus M4 have more reliable issue

[@mbogucki1]

SCAR-H is my favorite weapon in Ghost Recon Wildlands.

[@briancooper2112]

Omg. Get laid.

[@AndreasSweden]

That's an awesome game. The exploration music is so good.

[@irafowlerjr.7492]

Really enjoyed, love the scar, thanks

[@kixigvak]

Back in '65 I saw a news show on tv which described the AK47 and RPG-7 as "obsolete and ineffective." Now modern rifles are described as "just as good as an AK47." All things considered, the AK47 is still a pretty good choice.

[@andrewstraub131]

Yeah no it’s not though it is what is available on the cheap . Only the Russians are trying to keep it up to date and failing miserably at it. The ak cannot no matter solution is used reliably mount optics , it’s because of the top cover a design element that is central to the ak every solution has been a work around that doesn’t work particularly well . The extra weight required on an already heavy platform is not terribly welcome . Every review I have read of next generation ak platform stuff is unfavorable. Just because most of the world uses it doesn’t make it good , the only reason it is still in use anywhere is because small arms don’t decide outcomes

[@masonarmand8988]

I’d say the charging handle was one of the worst issues

[@scribbles8801]

Suppressors on the Mk17/H is probably the worst or second worst imo

[@removedot]

@@scribbles8801 the H has stuck around though

[@removedot]

from what I had heard though the Charging handle was especially an issue indoors; and as you saw one of the requirements was indoors capability. Going around a corner and going to shot and its blocked by a wall can be a very bad time

[@fistan5447]

i'd argue the casings going up the op rod chamber beats that.

[@PitFriend1]

Kind of sad the L version got stuck with such a bad rep from early teething problems and dropped. The original M16s issued to US troops also had a terrible reputation for unreliability but they stuck with it and troops would swear by the M16A1 models that corrected the problems.

[@kennyk541]

It had a bad reputation because the ammo was shit the gun really had no issues the m16 and m16a1 are the same gun just the a1 had the forward assist

[@danielhenderson8316]

The early M16 was practically sabotaged by the Ordnance Corp because it wasn't "their rifle." It wasn't built at one of their armories and they detested the design because it wasn't wood and steel like a "real rifle" should be.

[@MtnBadger]

Got 100% on my ASVAB, thank you. 😉 (Probably why I ended up a certified tech for a living 😆).

[@XWZXWZX]

My purple scar always performed amazing no matter if it was in Tilted Towers or Paradise Palms 😃

[@raistlinmajere2257]

Amazin segue to your sponsor, Cappy. KING OF BATTLE 13B.

[@namenotfound8747]

The charging handle was its biggest issue and has since been fixed. Optics have caught up as well, so unless you’re buying cheap optics, it’s not an issue. The Ugg boot is the only ugly thing about it, good thing it can be replaced. It’s not bad. But still very expensive.

[@dailyindopak]

There might be some issues with Scar but the fact of the matter is Arms Lobby in US is very strong and they can't let that billions dollar order to a foreign supplier.

[@Whiskey11Gaming]

A foreign supplier which most notably was producing M16A4's, M249's, and M240's in mass of the US Military already... Definitely not the issue.

[@Vanceydress]

​@Whiskey11Gaming difference being is US companies own the designs for those weapons. The scar would either need to be manufactured directly by FN or under license. Which would be far more profitable for FN then making m4s under license.

[@Whiskey11Gaming]

@@Vanceydress Out of the FN weapons produced (M16A4, M249, and M240), only ONE is a US design, the M16A4. The M240 and M249 were the FN MAG and FN Minimi before they ever hit the US shore. The US Stipulates that all weapons made by foreign countries must be produced in the US in order to be accepted into trials which is why FN has a US location to facilitate production of the M16A4, M240, and M249. The same thing occurred when Beretta was selected to produce the M9, they were required to be domestically produced. There is a huge difference in quality between a Italian made 92FS and a US made M9 too.

[@bush_wookie_9606]

It's probably because it beats the shit out of optics and that reciprocating charging handle certainly doesn't help.

[@nandoman4769]

Pretty sure that was just an issue with the 7.62x51 version which they still use today. They actually have optics now that are designed to handle the recoil of the SCAR H.

[@kennyk541]

@@nandoman4769that’s a overall design flaw tho why should I have to be force to use certain optics

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

​@@kennyk541 Most serious manufacturers "SCAR-proofed" their optics anyway.

[@winchcable2282]

love to see how the side by side testing goes with the Sig Sauer MCX SPEAR SBR .277 SIG FURY/6.8X51

[@JRH6271]

The M16 @2:57 looks like a rendition of the Stoner 63 and I love it!

[@alfonsorodriguez6437]

I never had a pressure washer but used to wash my M16 in the shower with hot water and Formula 404 and then douse it with a generous PLC coat inside and outside. Perfect for inspections that I never failed. It was super clean and I did very well with it. I started doing this when I went thru basic training many, many years ago. Now I own 4 match M15's but no need to submit them to the same abuse.