Why Warhammer Fantasy is Better than 40k

[@pancreasnowork9939]

What if it isn't bait? What if it truly is my unfiltered dogshit opinion, huh? What then?

[@supershaner]

yo aint you the dude with the busted pancreas?????

[@pancreasnowork9939]

@@supershaner This man, nerd react him

[@heightnoworkchris8093]

@@supershaner 🤓

[@ahennessy7998]

Imagine actually giving your genuine opinion on the internet lmao

[@redluke8119]

Filthy Heretic you sound like a pawn of Chaos! Long live Sanginius

[@erichbohn4815]

I like fantasy because it feels more like "humans are fighting hard and (occasionally) win by being smart and strategic even in a world where nearly everyone wants humanity dead." Instead of "The humans suck, the aliens suck, everyone sucks, and everyone has an iq you can count on one hand."

[@joshuahadley776]

i think that is an unfair summarization of 40k that you can only arrive to when taking 40k at it's least serious which really doesn't give the setting the credit it deserves

[@creed8712]

@@joshuahadley776 how seriously are you supposed to take 40k

[@SamueL-td7fb]

it's more like "humanity sucks and it's about to collapse and die a million deaths, but still wins 99% of the time and all other factions are a minor inconvenience at best"

[@fcomolineiro7596]

Based

[@jonathanathor117]

@@creed8712 sometime there are moments in 40k where you it feels serious or more specifically impactful and emotional like reylanor's sacrifice but there are alot of moments where things are so fucked up and grimdark it becomes cartoonish or even comedic. Imagine loony tune logic but grimdark to the point of unnecessarily edgy.

[@customink1576]

"My name... Is Karl Franz - And I was born into this world, just like you." Honestly, that line is the sole reason why I'd commit playing an Empire of Man campaign more than any of the other Total War Warhammer Campaigns. Just men and women fighting back against the darkness with good ol' fashioned human ingenuity, diplomacy, and inviolable spirit, flaws and all.

[@sheogorath7915]

and craploads of artillery, because "there are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons".

[@graljoffrewithoutanarmy860]

Sheogorath Faith, Steel and Gunpowder. Honestly the reason I love the Empire in Total War is the fact they fight in a (imo) reallistic way, just guns, explosives, artillery and of course tanks are almost all of your mid-to-late game oprions.

[@DJ-1Q84]

@@graljoffrewithoutanarmy860 You forgot the occasional wizard blasting fools with burning head lol.

[@midgetydeath]

Well, men and a handful of women anyway.

[@soznomic]

literally the indifferent cruelty of the universe vs the indomitable human spirit

[@maxthepaladin2147]

In Fantasy, semi-regular Joes can realistically travel through the settting and be reasonably expexted to defend themselves without needing to be babysat by Astartes and Inquisition

[@joedatius]

that is pretty accurate honestly, I think this has to do with both scale and expectations of reality. you can't have hundreds of imperial soldiers protecting every town so you cant make the world so unforgivingly dangerous that a simple village or town can't survive realistically on its own or have some level of self sustainability. so other cultures including human ones are actually able to survive to a fair extent since everyone isn't forced into the empire because a bunch of Astartes are threatening to genocide your entire planet for simply wanting to be neutral. Like the imperium of man will literally destroy an entire populated planet that would happily trade with them and give lots of valuable support to the Imperium but will kill them all because they don't want to join them or send their children to the orphan slaughter house

[@TheNapster153]

@@joedatius Furthermore, soldiers in Fantasy DO make it to retirement. It's not mentioned a lot, yeah. However, a 100% guaranteed casualty rate doesn't do good for any setting or story. Besides, it's badass to imagine veteran footsoldiers capable of going one-on-one with giants twice their size and winning with wit and ferocity.

[@steveisthecommissar4013]

@@TheNapster153 that a vary good point and something that has basically always been head cannon for me in 40k

[@jonathanathor117]

@@joedatius You know the empire from fantasy may be flawed but it's actually more believable than the imperium. I mean even if the empire was as big as the imperium it wouldn't as cartoonishly messed up as the imperium.

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

No to mention that there's an actual standard currency in Fantasy as opposed to 40k where guardsman don't get paid or hardly ever get paid (Does AOS have any money?, I mean Gold literally grows on the realm of metal so I doubt it)

[@dustinbird9170]

Lore wise, I love that in fantasy, a regular man or woman can simply decide they want to do something with their lives, pack up, and go make it for themselves and end up achieving amazing things. In 40k their is very little personal agency in any faction. They all have their own mechanic that forces people into pre-determined roles.

[@DewayneMcClure-bm2pj]

That's a big thing in the modern lore though. The aptly named War of the Gods has begun and no sentient species has true free will anymore. Every sentient mortal is now a cog in the war machine of their respective deities

[@dustinbird9170]

@@DewayneMcClure-bm2pj yeah I don't really associate with AoS

[@DewayneMcClure-bm2pj]

@dustinbird9170 oh my bad I was talking 40k

[@SavageDragon999]

Also the scale in 40k makes it insanely hard to relate to anything. In fantasy a group of 100 peasants can make a difference and contribute. In 40k a god can take a fart and suddenly 1000 planets vanish and that wouldn't even make a difference because there are a gazillion planets with megatrillion people and the Tyranids can take a sneeze and suddenly half the galaxy is gone.

[@neron93939]

You can travel around the imperium without an escort. That's absurd - it's done all the time in literally hundreds of books and lore.

[@202mc4]

In my experience 40k is more interesting on a first impression, but Fantasy is so much richer and flavourful when you dig deeper.

[@BigBroKuma]

Exactly I feel like 40k has more potential than fantasy but they don't develop the other factions enough and focus too much on the Imperium

[@TheGoodLuc]

Plus there is actual goodness in Order factions. In 40k? Everyone is evil, albeit some and sometimes less so.

[@202mc4]

@@TheGoodLuc Yeah. Fantasy, exactly due to the fact that it actually had good people, actually feels like a world where life Is hard and cruel, while 40k falls into grimderp a lot of the time. Although, tbh, the direction in which 40k is going IMO is even worse. For me, the sweet spot for 40k lore is around 5th-7th edition, before Gathering Storm. IMO that and the primaris ruined the setting. Also, old Bretonnia Is best Bretonnia. The 6e army book really exagerated with the grimdark.

[@TheGoodLuc]

@@202mc4 That's why I'm so happy we can plat Total War Warhammer games.

[@neron93939]

How can a typical generic fantasy setting be more interesting than a huge walking demonic robot?

[@blindoutlaw]

I like how it can easily be a more “low stakes” setting. Not every story is an end of the world or massive army of darkness story like 40k. Sometimes it’s just some dudes on an adventure to a lost city or defending one town from about 100 beastmen. Sometimes small scale is more fun.

[@Tmanowns]

It's the same reason I like low level d&d campaigns. One of the ones I'm running, magic is extremely rare, and viewed suspiciously. Killing 150ish zombies was a small town's keep under siege, that took days for the party to deal with.

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

Totally. The games are the same scale of the actual battles, often times.

[@SPG377]

Huuh... but Pancreas just talked about how it's exactly the opposite? There's even multiple 40k games dedicated to small scale conflicts, and 100 beastmen could absolutely fuck shit up in the right place and time.

[@zdravkomamut9160]

Like the books from that dwarf gotrek and his human buddy being swords for hire and just roaming around on adventures you can't have stuff like that in 40 k

[@blindoutlaw]

@@SPG377 I admit I wasn’t that clear in my original comment. I mean small scale as in putting things in context. While a whole planet being lost in 40k is considered “small scale”. When that world has a population 6 times that of present earth, the context goes out the window because you’re brain goes “oh, big number is big”. However in fantasy, when the city has a hundred thousand people your brain goes “shit, that’s the size of my hometown” therefor it’s relatable.

[@ahennessy7998]

Fantasy has skaven, 40k does not. Case closed

[@redluke8119]

This is the hardesr thing for me to refute although I will say the Nids are amazing I love them.

[@redluke8119]

Also I will place at the altar of Debate Sanginius, Grey Knights, the Inquisition(yes empire has but witch hunters no where as cool) also Catachan Jungle fighters cough cough

[@SamueL-td7fb]

of course 40k has Skaven, fool-fool! It's called the Imperium of Man.

[@jacobkotten338]

40K orks are better hands down also no gazkuhl

[@SamueL-td7fb]

@@jacobkotten338 ... yeah can't argue you on that one.

[@biggumstevens1784]

I think its the fact that diplomacy exists in warhammer fantasy. In warhammer 40K every race hates one another and wants to genocide each other off the map> IN warhammer fantasy the humans and dwarves get along well, the humans and elves interact and have alliances sometimes, the haflings live with the humans and entire cities are full of all the different "goodly" races living together. You get interesting dynamics and fun stories. Its still "holy shit the world is dark and full of terrors" but its also a little "And we are gonna stand together against the darkness' at times. Hell even the spooky mummy men are diplomatic, this adds a lot of depth to the world.

[@captainscience2732]

Not to mention that there's a decent number of diplomatic norscans hanging around, some depth in that not all of them are huffing the chaos juice.

[@Bluecho4]

It also makes the conflicts that DO happen because these people all the more significant and tragic. Wars happen because of very relatable reasons, rooted in character and context. In 40K, war happens because in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Factions hate each other categorically and absolutely, fighting out of obligation. Cooperation is rare and always teeth-clenched, done solely because some greater enemy forces it. No one just decides to ally with others, they do it because they have no choice. And that makes it hard to really get invested in the conflicts. No one has agency. The hand of the author, mandating constant war, is everpresent and obvious.

[@milliondollarmistake]

The Eldar, Necrons, Imperium and especially the Tau use diplomacy all the time though. Even some Orks will put down their shootas from time to time. There was a lot of diplomacy in the pre-horus heresy days too. The Emperor and some of the primarchs would often engage in diplomacy first instead of out right destroying whoever it was they were trying to conquer.

[@blackmask2699]

The big e used diplomacy and lots of the Xenos races use it

[@timothywillox8564]

@@blackmask2699 I hope this is the case with the leagues of Votann in the coming years. I can imagine there’s some BL books in the works right now featuring them.

[@franz83]

For an 80s kid like me 40k was cooler just because it took familiar fantasy tropes (orcs, elves, inquisitors and demons...) and put them in this heavy metal sci-fi setting which back then was grimdark but still full of humor, with sentient fungi so stubborn they believe red makes you go faster so much that IT DOES, hitching a ride on planet sized hunks of junk. We had space vampires and space werewolves fighting against an army of Aliens and living metal skeletons. Wow! My last spark of interest for the modern setting died when they added primaris marines. They are the cream of the crop, BUT CREAMIER. Marines were the best humanity had to offer, now buy the bestest! They are taller! Bah.

[@jonathanathor117]

red does make things go fasta.

[@ohamatchhams]

Primaris is just the symptom to the main problems of Warhammer 40K as a setting, no matter of how much good the settings offer as a brand, it's vastness, perpetual milking, fatalism, nihilism and dualism entrenched into it makes 40K such an empty settings that liking it because of Loyalist Space Marines, Primarchs and Custodes alone looks "cool regal space knights and kings" are the natural results of the settings Even Warhammer 40K's the warp, the necrons, tyrannids, etc as parts of promised "End Times" are ultimately empty platitudes akin to how The Force persists to exists in Star Wars, magics in Harry Potter or whatever reality warping SCPs that makes chaos gods like a dirt in the face of a multiverse are making these big brands and settings have no framework of endgoal, just pointless machines for Games Workshop greed, like a miniature yet even more tone-deaf version of Disney as a huge company At least series akin to All Tomorrows, Dune series and Tolkien Legendarium have actual finality, so travesties akin to Rings of Power won't sullied the integrity and originality of it's brands, unlike Warhammer 40K's dysfunctional storytelling or Star Wars' cinematically-raped 'canon'

[@cassandramathis8657]

@@jonathanathor117 Ya I'd do's

[@jackrylebonclaw7270]

@@ohamatchhams The problem with 40K, Star Wars and similar is that they're products; massive cash-cows for their parent companies, so of course they won't have any kind of terminal endpoint in mind because that would mean no more income from that source. Replacing it with a new uber-product/franchise/whatever might be possible, but it's not easy; it happened with Transformers when the original IDW comic run ended and was immediately supplanted by an uninspired low-effort affair that crashed and burned hard not long after launch. If you're going to replace a hugely popular thing you need a DAMN good thing to do it with. Also, how would you actually 'end' the 40K setting? Chaos victory? Warhammer End Times clone. Imperial victory? Unimaginative 'humanity is best' solution. Other races winning could be interesting, but is still going to make players of every other faction feel cheated to some degree. As well as a product, 40K is a game, and people want to be able to play without feeling like it's pointless because GW have already set it as canon that the Tyranids nom on everyone, or whatever. You could ignore it, sure; I'd bet there are people still playing Warhammer Fantasy and flatly disregarding the End Times storyline. That's the beauty of not writing an official canon finale; people can create their own. They can play with older versions of the rules if they prefer them, at least in their own groups. GW dictating too much would put a significant number of people off I think. I do agree that the setting lacks a lot of flavour though. I drifted out of the hobby many years ago due to the content not engaging me. Whilst there has been a lot of revision since, I'm still not particularly struck by any of it.

[@202mc4]

The primaris are the moment 40k jumped the shark. As far as it concerns me and my friends, 40k canon stops right before Gathering Storm.

[@pooch7245]

For me, I love the diversity among even just the human races. Bretonnians, Empire, Estalians, Tileans, Norscans, Albion, Cathay, Kislev, Nippon, Ind, Araby, etc. Not to mention all of the non human races. None of the 40k factions have ever really appealed to me

[@nyalan8385]

Same, the orks in 40k are funny and the tau are cool because they're actually doing something that even remotely resembles what you would expect an intelligent species like us to do. Everyone else just kind of sucks.

[@shapshapshapshap2829]

One thing I always disliked about 40k was the very little amount of individual factions compared to fantasy. Fantasy took place on one world yet it had so many species with so much variety within each of said species factions like all the human factions you mentioned. Meanwhile 40k is an entire universe and the only big mainstays that are regularly talked about are Imperium, 2 Eldar species, Necrons, Orks, Tau, and Tyranids. Whilst the imperium of man is made of many sub factions within sub factions that are all vastly different like the guards and space marines, at the end of the day if you wanna play as a human you gotta play as the imperium (and I do like playing as them). Plus there are many races we KNOW about in 40k that would make great factions or armies but GW only sticks with the ones I mentioned. Theirs these Maggot Men called the slaught that I would die to see fully realized as an army, along with the Hrudd and other factions. Hopefully the Leagues of Votan (and possibly arks of omen if Vashtor does become a major player) added is a sign of things to come, but I personally don’t have my hopes up

[@philipkelly7369]

>Norscans >Human

[@Goldenblitzer]

Breto*nians^ Keep swear words to a minimum please

[@gustavoaraujopenha8463]

@@shapshapshapshap2829 You can also be a human chaos worshipper or a Gue'vesa (Human who work for the T'au), there also rogue trader who, although technically part of the Empire, are... well, rogue, so they can do whatever the fuck they want

[@rawcyan8730]

One of my favorite parts of Warhammer Fantasy is how the setting uses Monsters. Not things like chaos spawn but the Lizardmen, Skaven, Vampires, Treekin, Trolls, and a lot more. WF is one of the only settings that makes these creatures feel like people. they form governments, scheme, work, and go through life much like your standard fantasy races would. So many Fantasy settings make humans, elves, dwarves, and the like by far the most dominant races without much cause. But in Warhammer, if you venture outside the few nations held by those races, you’ll enter into the world of monsters, where a raging dryad with gut you for picking up sticks in her forest, where Ogres thrive in the lands to harsh for human settlement, and where Lizardmen hold domain over almost an entire continent

[@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120]

In other words monsters dont exist to become headpieces at the tavern inn, they have a form of ecology and balance breaking one thing such as trolls moved in, kicked in orcs ass and now they are harassing a dwarf fort would make sense instead of finding 6 boars on the 3rd level of the dungeon of doomed sighs

[@Noplayster13]

Well, almost all of fantasy in the last 80 years has been a derivative of the LotR. About time somebody decided to branch out a very little.

[@joesjohnjohnnyjohnson4609]

40k setting also uses monsters but we call them xenos and mutants, not everything is chaos spawn like you state. Eldar, Orks, Tau, other non imperium human factions, form governments, scheme, work and go through life. You either misunderstood 40k or you simply never dwelled into it to know enough about it.

[@rawcyan8730]

@@joesjohnjohnnyjohnson4609 … if your definition of monsters includes elves and tau then you clearly did not understand what I was talking about. The only major race in 40k that would be monstrous by fantasy standards would be Tyranids, who are a bestial hive mind and do not do the things I was praising WF for.

[@joesjohnjohnnyjohnson4609]

@@rawcyan8730 my definition if monster is not only elves and tau, they are xenos and beyond that there are countless monsters which are not chaos related because it's on a galactic scale. If you researched more in 40k you would know.

[@nerdyvids1]

My big thing is that fantasy actually handles morality in an interesting way. 40K doesn't have shades of grey as much as slightly less pitch black factions. It makes a faction doing something dubious lose all meaning, and makes the few good people we see feel inconsequential in the face of their team's assholery. Fantasy factions can have actual nuance and depth to them, largely because they don't all hate each other by default. Because of this, there's way more opportunity to see factions actually interact in a way outside of insults and warfare. The Empire of Man and its internal problems honestly aren't too far off from an actual historical empire. Its a genuinely functional society where you can say "yes, living here is better than fucking off into the wilds to make your own little community." A sizable chunk of its leadership actually cares about the well-being of its people. Things can and have changed for the better, with our boy Karl being hailed as one of the more forward-thinking emperors they've had. The average citizen has a shot at leading a fulfilling life if they don't get killed in a raid by one of the ten different threats pushing at their borders. It has good (or at least cordial) relations with multiple other civilizations, and wont just kill someone for being different. The High Elves may be aloof and arrogant, but many of them are still decent people. They obviously prioritize their own interests, but will still come to the aid of their neighbors if the situation arises. There's a great comic out there (think it was White Dwarf) where Karl is valiantly fighting off a chaos incursion and is ready to lay down his life to keep his people safe. When all hope seems lost, an Asur fleet arrives to deliver crucial reinforcements and save the day. You even have people like Teclis, who actively visits and aids the younger civilizations in hopes of seeing them prosper and hold out against chaos. He's the whole reason the Empire has the colleges of magic. The Dwarfs are stubborn, almost as arrogant as the Elves, and will pursue grudges far past the point of reason. But they're also stalwart allies who will NEVER go back on a promise. If a Dawi has given his word that he will be there on the day battle arrives, he will be there. If a Dawi names you his friend, he would die to save your life. And if, ancestors forbid, someone should manage take your life, he will hunt down every last one of the wazzocks until you've been avenged. Even their legendary grudge against the Elves is more of a tragedy than anything else. The two races were once firm allies and friends, and the fact that such a bitter rift has divided them for centuries is a tragedy second only to the fact that both parties are too prideful to make amends. Compare them to their 40k counterparts (granted I don't know much about the new Voltann space dwarfs) and it's a night and day difference. When you read a story about a true hero of the Empire, Asur, or Dawi, you can reasonably see how they could fit into their society instead of being a weird outlier.

[@datfisheboi6519]

Tbh that's why I don't really consider fantasy to be "grimdark" at all - it definitely has grimdark elements, but a lot of ciuvlizations feel like actual, real-life civilizations led by real, complex people with different beliefs and goals, which may worsen or improve the problems in their society, as opposed to 40k where it feels like the writers are just going "what's the worst status quo we could possibly think of for societies?" lol. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that imo, it def has it's place, imo it's just less realistic and flexible as a setting than Fantasy.

[@ManDuderGuy]

Well said. The fantasy seems like a more "realistic" and relatable setting. Like you might actually not hate living there because not everyone is a grimdark ritard.

[@Dachnik228]

@@datfisheboi6519 Wasn't Warhammer Fantasy always considered just Dark Fantasy and not Grimdark?

[@nerdyvids1]

@@datfisheboi6519 It always annoys me when I see people call fantasy grimdark, because yeah, it really isn't. What's worse is that for a while GW tried to MAKE fantasy grimdark so it would fit in with 40k better.

[@Quakefan7]

Even run of the mill Norscans have a sort of Code of Honor. They're still on the side of evil, but slightly less so than, say... the Warriors of Chaos

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

I really like how Warhammer Fantasy has hope in all the darkness-which makes it both more believable/realistic and better for storytelling. 40k has no hope. The world is evil and the closest thing to a better future is oppression under “the cruelest regime imaginable.”

[@mynameiswritinwater]

factually untrue (unless you only read Horus Heresy ). WH40K is just not as clichée with monolithic "good guys" and monolithic "bad guys". Wh40k is just better at showing that humanity is quite good at being shit and oppressive in the name of safety and xenophobia

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

​@@mynameiswritinwater Yes, the good ol shades of Black, that is becoming a burden, 40K grimdark ia just cringe

[@navilluscire2567]

@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 I mean to be fair in real life many of the elites that are at the top of the hierarchy we live under would sooner let half of us die horribly than EVER relinquish a single shred of power back to the masses.

[@plaidpvcpipe3792]

@@mynameiswritinwater I don’t disagree? I said that 40k (and 30k) is hopeless.

[@mynameiswritinwater]

@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 hmmm, There are a number of books which have a different take... maybe because I mostly read the non SM stuff... . perhaps try "The Magos" On the other hand I cannot remember any Warhammer Fantasy Novel (old WHFB) that ended in more than a "just barely made it, but still sh*t" I think only a few have read the entirety of the books for both settings,so it may be a bias on what one has read

[@timelordsheep4413]

I think the Fantasy setting really helps with keeping the silliness of fantasy while 40k tries way too hard to be serious and dark to a point where grimderp happens far far more. Plus even despite Fantasy having sapient crack addict ratmen and a really fat goblin running a tribe of greenskins it still feels somewhat more serious than 40k, simply because yeah you can expect the rats and greenskins are killing people for fun but it doesn't try to hit you with the "life sucks, everyone's evil" that 40k tries to hammer over and over and over.

[@The-Singularity-X01]

Tbh I'd love a pure grimderp franchise, where they make everything so 'dark and serious' that it loops around and everything is just a giant piss take.

[@goazer2]

Fantasy allows Bloodbowl to exist so I think it's the superior just because of that. However I know what you're talking about. In one of the first Gotrek and Felix stories after Gotrek almost gets run over by a carriage then hacks down an inn's door because they won't serve him alcohol fast enough they interrupt a slaanish ritual and Felix has a bit of a freak out as mutants and cultists try to stab him while also humping his leg. Then they find that the guy they came there to rescue was both a willing participant and killed during the battle and they decide to just leave rather than tell his parents.

[@billylee7398]

No shietz. Dah Orkz b lee dah duh kala red muk em gud fazta so em Orkz muk em gid fazta daf b lee in et nuff. Fey go supa fazt.

[@danielwoods3896]

@@The-Singularity-X01 original 40k

[@MasterIceyy]

Greenskins actually have culture and society in fantasy too, they use tusks for currency, but the 40k greenskins are just a homogenous blob

[@FeHearts]

Both fantasy and 40k were created by history nerds and the grim dark became a bigger thing over time. The thing I liked about fantasy is that it retained more of the history focus while it seems that 40k is focusing more of the grimdark simply for the sake of being grimdark which harms the franchise in my opinion.

[@bombocrusty4251]

Luckily it also seems GW is kind of turning away from that too some degree. Still very dark compared to fantasy but now in the narrative it seems like it's not completely hopeless, just mostly hopeless lol

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

A dude with a sword and iron guts taking on evil will forever be cooler than a fully propagandized, brainwashed, genetically juiced, power-armored slab of meat. GW completely and utterly missed the appeal of Fantasy with AoS and the bafflingly stupid Sigmarines.

[@Al-fp7tx]

In a lot of the more recent worrying ie the dark imperium books the space marines are portrayed as far more human they have wants fears regrets that sort of thing it’s been pretty good

[@BrokenSymetry]

Fantasy does grimdark. 40k is doing grinderp

[@krampusthestoryteller1416]

I think AOS has actually ended up becoming a very interesting and fun setting. I will agree that using Stormcast to sell it was a huge mistake, though. I think having them as an element of it and a playable faction as a result, sure, but NOT as the posterboys.

[@Zooasaurus]

Another thing that I liked about fantasy is that there's more diversity. Sure, it's just "Fantasy China," "Fantasy Arabia," "Fantasy HRE," and "Aztecs but they're lizards," but it's still something compared to "Generic SM Chapter #988." It's also I think a bit less grimdark than 40k. Sure, it can be quite grimdark, but not to the insane point of 40k is. Depending on where they live, general people can still lead a 'normal', happy life.

[@navilluscire2567]

Honestly LOVE the mix of history and mythology and folklore with each of the cultures or nations of Warhammer Fantasy, it actually gives the setting its unique spin on things. Heck I wanna see even MORE cultures and societies represented in the world that was/is, imagine some Mississippian (native american) inspired faction or fantasy NOT-korea! I even think their should be even more human based (as in the majority of the faction are human) OR more hybrid factions, humans and monsters inspired by the cultures they take inspiration from. That is kinda like that with Cathay, mostly humans but ruled by literal dragons, I just wanna to see MORE of this kind of set up. Heck that's partly why I would LOVE to see the kingdoms of Ind some day properly fleshed out, so much potential, so much material to work with!

[@Zooasaurus]

@@navilluscire2567 I agree

[@Tastyduckling5]

I would like to say nippon is jus Japanese for Japan which is what they call fantasy Japan

[@dazerrazer3018]

@@Tastyduckling5 nobody asked

[@julioaugusto60]

@@dazerrazer3018 you're a douche

[@Irishflyboy255]

I personally consider Warhammer Fantasy one of the few fantasy settings I like. The points about scale and impact of the characters actions I agree with, but I also like how Fantasy isn't afraid to still not take itself too seriously. 40K in the beginning was a lot of dark comedy that slowly turned into grimdark hopelessness. Warhammer Fantasy has characters like Glibfoot Volespanker and the entirety of Bretonnia. There's plenty of space for both ridiculous parody and stirring emotion in the setting.

[@Nostradevus1]

Now I’m trying to imagine what a Bretonnian equivalent space marine chapter would be like lol.

[@SamueL-td7fb]

@@Nostradevus1 a horrid mix of Dark Angels and Black Templars

[@Nostradevus1]

@@SamueL-td7fb With a French accent and pretentious names?

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

​@@Nostradevus1 And a genderbend Imperial Cult

[@indrickboreale7381]

@@Nostradevus1 Don't Black Templars have already French accent? They are Templars, not Teutogens or else

[@EgoEroTergum]

Well, let's see. Reasons I like 40k: - The modern setting makes some of their fears and desires more relatable. - The bigness is a source of humor. - Humans are my favorite race in fantasy for relatability reasons, and until recently 40k had more variations on them. - They're the only sci-fi franchise that hasn't been cheapened by the mouse yet, and despite their fan-hating the stat of the setting is such that my emotional investment isn't harmed by their corpo meddling. Reasons I like fantasy: - One of the few fantasy settings with guns, despite guns being around for 4 centuries of the middle ages and renaissance. - Empire of Man is an interesting exploration of human motives, and much less succeptable to plot override by inquisitors or marines. If the captain of Ostland is corrupt, you can't just kill him. - The world looking like Earth allows for funny and interesting alt-history fun, like renaming Naggoroth "Pittsburgh". - The races are less dickish.

[@1YCARADOFACAO]

There are plenty human societies in fantasy too though. Bretonia, the chaos alignes tribes, Dogs of War and now there's Cathay coming soon, maybe much more

[@dreconit6156]

​@@1YCARADOFACAO There are far more, yes. But a lot of more 'minor' ones don't get much representation in games. I don't think Estalia or Tilea have ever been given their own unit roster in any Warhammer game, unless you count a few dogs of war who happen to hail from those lands as a full unit roster.

[@xyro3633]

Halo has been got by the Mouse? I think that's just Microsoft, friend

[@EgoEroTergum]

@@xyro3633 Still corpsified and weird.

[@1YCARADOFACAO]

@@dreconit6156 I count their full roster the whole DoW

[@DatGitGhaz]

If Fantasy hadn't been killed for Age of Sigmar I'd probably be all over it. Now it just reminds me of finding a cool TV show, being stoked, then finding out that it got cancelled halfway through.

[@meteuor2859]

IMO it would be great if they done alternative reality reboot

[@johnretard7275]

man :(

[@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms]

In the rpg version the human win against archaon and you start your adventure after it

[@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms]

In the rpg version the human win against archaon and you start your adventure after it

[@johnretard7275]

what @@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms

[@GallowglassVT]

It's been said, but the Fantasy races (the Order races, that is) give you more reason to root for them as well. Like, all of the Order races have societal problems that could be railed against more in the absence of immediate threats, but because of the time period and constant threat of destruction, I can understand why those problems exist and on top of that, the characters are interesting enough to keep me invested. 40k, in terms of both characters and worldbuilding, feels like it's copping out with the whole "everyone is terrible, but some are more terrible than others." It's just so needlessly grim (and also why I like to use TTS canon over anything GW puts out).

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

Order races?? There are no order races in WHFB, those are AoS crap...

[@GallowglassVT]

@Manlio Cipullo dude, Fantasy Battles literally had an alignment system: Order, Destruction, Chaos and Neutral. Where are you getting your info from?

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

@@GallowglassVT From the Army books and the rulebooks until 8th edition or WHFRP... Age of Sigmar has an alignment system...

[@alejandroelluxray5298]

Since the moment I met them, I sided with the Lizardmen the BEST faction of WH Fantasy, although Sigmar´s Empire and the Dwarfs are also favorites of mine among the forces of Order (for the Neutrals I go with da Boyz)

[@TheGoodLuc]

In Warhammer 40K I came to hate the fucking Emperor just as much as Chaos or eviler xenos. Seriously, if everybody in this galaxy died, and Chaos somehow lost, it would be a good ending. Here? You care. There ARE good if very flawed people. Granted, Warhammer 40000 protagonists are usually sympathetic, but still.

[@Basedweaboo]

I like how in Warhammer there is a lot more interactions between races. I've recently been reading the Drachenfel novel and the rest of the series and the fact that a fucking Vampire of any kind is even remotely welcome in the vicinity of Karl Franz and other elector counts is astounding. The Wood-elves and Bretonnians regularly interact, orks and Ogres can be mercenaries for the Empire. I also like how the Empire isn't the only human faction. Cathay, Nippon, Arabi, Ind. I'd even argue the Southern Realms (Tilea is the first that comes to mind). Dwarves and humans work together, skaven and chaos work together. In 40k in general this is almost unheard of minus a few exceptions (Notable ones I admit) I play the tabletop and because of the Dogs of war book from 6th ed, I can use Orks, dwarves, elves, Halflings (moot), giants, Etc.

[@krinkrin5982]

When I first read the bestiary for WFRP2ed and found an account of an empire scholar hiring goblin wolf riders as scouts I was astounded. I always thought orks and goblins would just attack everyone else and basically never engage in diplomacy other than 'do as I say or I krump ya'. Yet here was an example that in a world so stereotypically bad not everyone is just fighting and killing each other on sight. This simple thing added so much nuance and depth, and opened the gates to so much storytelling.

[@GaijinGoombah]

100% understand and agree with this! Personally though, and this is no attack on this video more of an addition from the other side, I actually enjoy the fact that 40k IS so massive in size and scope because it allows for people to create and enjoy their own stories and characters. It's a galaxy after all! Aside from main characters and their canon, who's to say that an OC or story can't exist in 40k? I feel that because of the very GOOD smaller scope of Fantasy, such a thing could be more difficult to do. . .. ... ..... ...Yes I have a cringe ork OC and story in the 40k universe. I love him and his story. It is incredibly stupid.

[@pancreasnowork9939]

40k’s homebrew capacity is definitely a lot better. With Fantasy (not AoS), it being a solid setting really draws me to it since everything fits together so nicely, but it means creating your own little corner of it always feels a bit out of place. 40ks massive galaxy means the most outlandish things can be put in and it’s just as valid as anything else. Who’s to say it doesn’t exist somewhere in the galaxy, after all? And I love that. If you don’t have at least one kinda cringy OC character, can you really say you’re a Warhammer fan?

[@creed8712]

@@pancreasnowork9939 you say it’s easier to home brew in 40k but I think Vermintide and Vermintide 2 show that even at the end times you’d be able to make adventures that as far as I know don’t really effect much outside of small pockets for the heroes

[@BirdRaiserE]

HOLY SHIT, it's Gaijin Goombah! Legend of the early internet and creator of my favorite video game ninja video!

[@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120]

@@BirdRaiserE what is the weaboo god doing here...

[@henryheavy8044]

You should try Mantic game’s warpath

[@joedatius]

The thing that really makes Fantasy just better as a setting then 40K is that the factions outside of the humans actually matter and have their own goals and have the ability to go after them and arent just treated as another thing for the humans to shoot at. The Tyranids are a joke, the Eldar are irrelevant, orks are pest, Tau are also a joke and Chaos is barely it's own faction anymore and is just mean humans now. And the only kind of threatening race is the Necrons

[@vladprus4019]

Chaos is the biggest difference for me related to what you describe. Chaos in 40k - just some edgy rebels Chaos in Fantasy has actual cultures alligned with it, and they have very good reaason to be alligned with Chaos (living in places so heavily influenced by Chaos that you wouldn't even be able to survive there if you weren't Chaos-alligned in any way), overall Chaos feels much more to be part of the world.

[@timmyly2363]

@@vladprus4019chaos marines were basically just GW saying “These guys are too numerous and too overpowered. We need to find a way to kill so many of them. We’ll give them daddy issues”.

[@AweryGhe]

Honestly the reason why i like fantasy more, is because there are unlinke in 40k are characters who are actually likeable. Yes, of course there are still many terrible people among them, but at least some of fantasy characters are actually capable to make you relate to them in one way or another, which is much more important to me as a person who cares more of a lore and stories told in the world than the actual tabletop staff.

[@NCRVeteranRanger]

Even as someone who greatly prefers sci-fi over fantasy, I still greatly prefer Warhammer Fantasy over Warhammer 40k. Why? Because unlike 40k, Fantasy’s factions are willing to take risks for the betterment of their people. For example: Innovation. 40k’s Imperium of Man refuses to innovate at all. From technology to ideas, the Imperium refuses to grow both culturally & technologically. Meanwhile, the Empire of Man in fantasy is constantly growing, developing, & expanding. Imperial engineers are constantly inventing new technology & upgrading old technology, & Imperial Mages are constantly discovering new magics & experimenting with existing magics. Sure, you could justify the Imperium of Man’s stagnation by saying that the risk of Chaos sabotaging or corrupting attempts at innovation is too great, but the Empire of Man has to deal with Chaos sabotage as well, & you don’t see them banning or shunning innovation. Humans are always taking great risks in the name of progress. The Europeans dedicated large amounts of resources & manpower to discovering other continents despite the risk of their ships being lost to the seas forever. The United States & Soviet Union dedicated large amounts of manpower & resources to developing methods of space travel while knowing full well of the potential risks sending people into space posed. So when people say that the Imperium of Man has good reason to ban innovation? Yeah, it’s complete bull. Anyways, that’s just my opinion on the matter. Sorry for the rant, I just really wanted to get it off my chest.

[@bencox3641]

@@NCRVeteranRanger The whole "their is no innovation" thing is just the writers going "haha religion makes you stupid" which is historically inaccurate. The church was the only actual educational institution during the medieval period. And it only become anti science when science started to disprove its dogma, which won't be an problem for either the Imperial Cult or AdMech. Because theirs so much BS from the Warp they can just point out of the window and prove that their religion is real! The entire idea that an sapient species will even be ABLE to stop innovating is the most unrealistic part of 40k.

[@prestonjones1653]

I see your argument and raise you CI CI CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM

[@crankyfox]

It just feels way more... meaningful. 40k and many large scale universes(like marvel) lose the impact of their conflicts when there is just a seemingly endless scale that makes it feel pointless. If you read the gotrek and felix novels (or listen to the excellent audiobooks) The world of fantasy feels more lived in. It has more variation in the personalities of both the people and the monsters and demons. There are skaven that feel human, demons who have personality, vampires that are sympathetic or heroic(like ulrica)... Even the elves feel more like people, people that have become aloof because of their exceptionally long lives, but in the right circumstances can suprise you. 40k is just endless battles and grim groans about the endless death and destruction. Fantasy had grim themes, but it was filled with a sense of humor about it. Then AOS came and ended it all for no reason, made it endless portals and dumb realm bullshit in a chaos grey shitland. The awesome thing in warhammer fantasy is the color. The vibrant beauty of elven nature, the gold and steel of dwarven holds, the 1800s styles of citys and towns in human lands, the green and brown and red of orks. There was contrast in fantasy.

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

I like your mention of color, because gravitating toward beauty is very human. You might think Imperial Greatswords or Bretonnian Knights look goofy until you look at their historical representations and realize there's a lot of truth and rationality to their flamboyance and symbolism. I used to think I didn't like medieval fantasy because much of it had that Game of Thrones flavoring of muted, black and brown armor, with stoic, miserable people... a criticism very applicable to 40k. Even something as simple of the soldiers of fantasy enjoying resplendence, goodness, and light really makes it stick out and count for a lot. I don't relate to being a brutal puppet of a brutalist regime... but I am immensely inspired by men laying down their lives for all that is beautiful and sacred.

[@josephquicke5455]

Thing is, I like fantasy because it’s factions and people just feel more realistic, you have people who hate those who are different, and you have people who actively work with other races, like there is a more real feel to each faction from the differences within them than you usually get from 40k, although I like the aesthetic of 40k more, normal nights are never going to be better than one that is30 feet tall and made out of metal

[@joedatius]

Yeah another thing is that the human faction isnt just stupidly evil for the sake of it and so you have actual unique human factions from eachother who arent forced to commit genocide on eachother because muh grimdark. Not to mention being able to work together is more interesting and makes conflicts between the factions far more meaningful. The Dwarfs and humans are strong allies for a long time but if a war happens between them it means a hell of a lot more then the billionth time the imperium commits another attrocity on a zenos race for politely existing

[@pheonixshaman]

Exactly. Fantasy feels more realistic.

[@CamoflaugeDinosaue]

I wouldn't use the word "realistic" so much as "believable". To me they just seem like situations I can put myself into more easily.

[@nado1908]

Fantasy also has Saltzpyre, who's far better written and has more personality than almost all of 40k.

[@pheonixshaman]

@@CamoflaugeDinosaue Believable is the better way to phrase what I am thinking. There are a lot of things that I can tell would ruin my immersion with the setting (such as unnecessary levels of grimdarkness/massively conflicting lore or several things that are not realistic, like hive cities' food and water supply and general lack of planetwide rebellion due to conditions). Its why fantasy and other settings like Battletech appeal to me so much more.

[@dr.squares8938]

I love fantasy more. When I think of chaos, I think of Chaos Spawn. A breeze for space marine, or QUADRASIXTILION of Guardsmen from QUADRASIXTILION of planets. But in fantasy - it's a humble halberdier who holds the line. A regular dude, somewhat similar to a Guardsman, but no space Knights or orbital bombardments to save the day. It's just you and handgunneer Hank. Thanks, Hank

[@rafaelcastor2089]

And you're having to hold the line against something that cares fuck all for your pointy stick impaling it.

[@unukbigwall2279]

hank is such a good lad, the other day he teach my lil brother how to use a gun and now he is a propa militian boy

[@VojislavMoranic]

@@unukbigwall2279 Hank died of tetanus.

[@ninototo1]

Not Hank, Hans.

[@funeralhippy3209]

One of the other reasons I love fantasy, this isn't a big one but still a pretty big chunk. Both chaos in fantasy and 40k are practically the same, sure chaos in fantasy are maybe a lot weaker, but that greater demon is still a greater demon, and it'll mush anyone to jelly 40k or fantasy. Now in 40k what usually happens? The greater demon usually gets to fight against a few guardsmen before the grey knights arrive and ultimately save the day, taking "care" Of the guardsmen in the process. In fantasy, the soldiers of the Empire would probably shoot it with handguns and cannons before a stabbing it several times with spears and having a warrior priest 1v1 it

[@SprikSprak]

One thing I really like about WF lore is the interconnectedness of it. When you're reading lore for a certain faction you get different perspectives on certain key events from multiple angles. A good example is Alcadizzar killing Nagash from both the Tomb Kings Lore (which focuses on the climactic battle), the Skaven's (which focuses on the underground power struggle and their fear of Nagash and his huge army which led to them getting involved) and the Vampire Counts (which is mostly about their politicing and the aftermath of their defeat). You don't get the whole picture from a single faction, it is more how the events influences that particular one and how they influenced it. Another good example is the climactic earthquakes that the Skaven caused and the ripple of effects it had.

[@krinkrin5982]

And here I thought the earthquakes were caused by Mazdamundi implementing cryptic instructions from another of the poorly understood ancient tablets.

[@vulcanjoe8258]

I’m not gonna lie, I loved fantasy in other universes but I never got into WH fantasy until WH1 came out and I really started looking into the lore etc. Now I’m pretty sure it’s my favourite fantasy setting.

[@pdthepowerdragon5412]

Gentlemen, we must form a protective shield around this man for speaking such facts.

[@thecruzking]

"Form a ring of steel!" 😄

[@leichtgesalzener-kabeljaurogge]

off topic but i can only ever read the word "Gentlemen" as spys "Gentlemen, synchronise your death watches." from tf2 expiration date

[@AhmedMostafa-ir2bl]

you are right i will by fortifying this position for him

[@adeptusdripstartes]

No fortifications are strong enough to stop the purging of a heretic (this is a joke btw I respect his opinion)

[@cegesh1459]

Indeed we must.

[@Le-cp9tr]

Fantasy is a better written setting but because it draws from history but isn’t as flexible as 40k and 40k allows for more possibilities. Really both are excellent, Fantasy just is more immersive and coherent

[@JustBearly]

Not really, 40k has a lot more of "x can't happen because of reason" and then said reason is stupid and results in no interesting plotlines

[@Blinks77]

Except 40k doesn't. The only real possibility is "nothing you do matters. Everything is shit". Fantasy, by contrast, has an actual win goal. It's entirely possible for the forces of good to close the gates at the poles. Not easy, for sure, but it's not an impossibility.

[@goransekulic3671]

@@Blinks77 Of course. Just like there was a 3rd Warp Gate(or something equally stupid) under Middenheim in the Endtimes, there could be a "salvation macguffin" located in the Vaults of the Old Ones in Itza. If we are talking stupid, let's go all in! But yeah. Fantasy should expand itself even more towards a good distinction between Good and Evil. Maybe even have unexpected stuff like Good Norscans or what have you. Fantasy can be very rich.

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

​@@goransekulic3671 To be fair some Norscan work with other races as mercenaries

[@axcel9128]

@@Blinks77 things matter on a small personal scale in 40k, just because your hero does not solo r*pe le evil monster and then gets celebrated by the whole empire does not make it bad writing. A Space Marine saving a chapter relic is a small dub for the chapter that matters on a personal level.

[@tobiashagstrom4168]

I agree. What bothers me about 40k is that it is modern, totalizing. Everything is part of an overarching machine of war. Everything is potentially connected, there is always someone somewhere who needs you, to travel do a distant battlefield, to farm harder on your agriworld plot, to build a bigger lasgun factory. Everyone is always in some sense plugged into the consequences of this galaxy-spanning struggle, there is never quite any time where you're justified in chilling out or focusing on yourself, if you're not yet dead, it means you can potentially do more. In fantasy, sometimes, just maybe sometimes, it'll happen that you can look from horizon to horizon, and there won't be anything immediately trying to kill you. Sometimes, the gods smile, sometimes you build something cool, you clear out a bunch of monsters, the sky is blue, and you can just sit, chill out, and feel good about it, without the galaxy phone calling asking for more bodies. Overall, it's more colorful, more romantic, more cozy, there is nature, not just industry and urban brutalism. Scale means something to normal people, because not everything is so big that it defies human intuition. Things are more relatable on a human scale.

[@kingleech16]

Yeah, at times it seems the only reason for anything cool to exist in 40k is so Chaos/Orks/Tyranids/Dark Eldar/The Inquisition/All of the above can come in and do something miserably horrific to it. Possibly more than once.

[@TheDukeofDeath666]

I agree, Warhammer 40k just try to hard to be "grimdark" but just end looking like an edgy 14yo kid on discord triying to scare you, i like 40k and fantasy but fantasy knows how to use the grimdark setting

[@sethleoric2598]

I think what I love about Fantasy is how the stakes are actually REAL, also I'm a bit of a medieval history hobbyist, but never mind that last part. When the Imperium of man suffers from a Chaos raid, I go "cool, those Chaos guys were impressive" Whenever the Imperium loses to Eldar (craft world) I go, "well deserved Eldar! you guys didn't do anything stupid" Whenever the Imperium loses to Tau I put a hand on my face and go "geez who the hell writes this stuff?" Whenever Imperium loses to Tyrannids or Necrons... ok well maybe I do actually think that shit has stakes... Or vice versa where the Imperium pulls out a totally BS win because of plot armor (Which all factions have by the way). I really stop caring about the fate of the Imperium itself, really I guess I only care about the characters themselves or maybe just the one world, the Imperium is so large that none of it really does much. But for the Empire? yeah whenever a world-ending threat happens, a genuine world-ending threat happens, you can feel it. Whenever 50 Orks come up and kill loads of people, you go "Oh shit that's bad", and when whole villages are slaughtered you go "oh fuck!" When Skaven finds a giant-ass Warpstone that's polluting the river and turning whole towns into Chaos cultists, then you go "damn this is bad" you feel like the Empire is truly in danger and thus your heroes matter, and when there's an incompetent commander you genuinely go "wow this is bad" instead of going "someone should just execute this guy already". I mean sure, the plot armor still exists, but it really does feel more impressive. Just more stakes in general, there is a real effect on the world.

[@bencox3641]

Yeah, other than a handful of plot important planets, the Imperium losing or winning really doesn't matter because there's a million more where that came from. Battletech actually does a pretty good job at having the setting be big enough to feel impressive, but small enough so that it actually does feel like things matter.

[@acorr14]

What I love about WH: Fantasy is how non-standard everything feels. When I first got into it, I expected it to be quite generic, because as far as I knew it was really the origin of a lot of modern fantasy tropes. But it honestly surprised me. Empire basically being the Holy Roman Empire, Lizardmen being the bastion against Chaos, Skaven being as insane as they are, Dwarves having their book of Grudges, etc. I love my Ratbois.

[@olafgurke4699]

There are no men-sized rats living underneath your cellars, man-thing. Yes-yes.

[@nanni-buyerofcopper]

Fuck skaven, fuck Vlad carstein, FOR FRANZ!!!

[@fr-joey764]

Everybody live the rats, yes yes

[@Skitarii_Ranger]

I like 40k’s Orks, but I am in love with Fantasy’s Greenskins. Skarsnik has quickly become one of my favourite characters in anything.

[@42Nightsyesterday]

Yeah the greenskin heroes are a lot better in fantasy I think. You have an ork with a magical crown that he has a rapport with, an actual badass goblin hero with a cute squig and grom the freaking paunch, a greenskin that actually has a motivation beyond fighting (eating, but hell he’s a greenskin. If you’re looking for depth you’re in the wrong place.) 40k on the other hand really just has variations on the same old killy warboss with varying levels of killiness. Gazkhull is the worst really. Despite being the prophet of gork and mork he has yet to do anything particular interesting or different from what a normal warboss would do given his resources. I would rather meet gazkhull over grimgor any day of the week

[@Lunch_Meat]

Way back when I was a yoof, just gettin started wif da ladz, I waz torn up on if I should go wif da space Boyz or da sword n sorcery Boyz (I only had enough teef for one, ya see) and ended up getting in wif da space orks cause I like things that go boom and I like big tanks. Looking back on it now, after being out of da 'obbie for a number of years, I'm glad I made my pick, but fantasy orcs and gobbos is bettah

[@philipkelly7369]

He's a SCHEMA'!

[@dabestestgoblin8495]

Oy boyz! Dis 'umie git is decent

[@navilluscire2567]

@@42Nightsyesterday Yeah, the goblins of Fantasy actually feel like they are their own thing while in 40k they are basically always subservient to the "orks". (although I think there are few SPACE goblin factions but none as interesting as their Fantasy counterparts)

[@MinersLoveGames]

I was originally more interested in 40K, but the more I learned and experienced with Fantasy, the more I began to prefer it. Maybe because it feels like there is still a glimmer of hope within the Fantasy universe that 40K typically lacks. And I for one feel, especially with how things have been going the last few years in real life, a little bit of hope is needed every now and then.

[@HiddenEvilStudios]

Well said. Hope you're prepared to keep that hope alive once push comes to shove. It's bound to get worse before things get better.

[@boom350ph]

end times is bs

[@johnmatrix3664]

I love that almost every reason you listed for preferring WF to 40K is a reason I prefer 40K to WF hahaha 1) The ridiculous scale in 40K is part of the fun. The fact that entire planets get destroyed or conquered regularly and it's of little consequence (most of the time) is hilarious. You're completely right that it deadens any sense of narrative impact though. 2) The unrelatable characters of 40K make the setting truly alien. It's fascinating to explore an imaginary space where humans live in such different circumstances from our own that they cease to be fully recognizable to us. They are grotesque and frightening, which to me makes the moments where their humanity shines through more significant. Also I think that portraying a society that is so inured to mass murder and oppression, to the point where they carry it out by force of habit, really underlines the dubious justification for maintaining a theocratic autocracy. Over millennia they have tricked themselves into thinking that it's necessary to commit genocide just to survive. Whereas in WF violence against Chaos cultists and other enemies is depicted as less ambiguously righteous. 3) I think having a murky, contradictory in-universe history is closer to the nature of real world history. The popular conception of what life was like in the Middle Ages, the Enlightenment, the Victorian Era, and any other historical period is almost always at odds with reality. The constant struggle of distinguishing between what actually happened in the past and what people want to believe happened in the past, the identification of misleading meta-narratives, is the essence of historiography. I always assume most 40K lore is propaganda mixed with elements of truth, which to me makes the universe feel more expansive. Kinda like the possibilities are endless. It reminds me of Dark Souls, in the sense that you're given breadcrumbs and have to reconstruct the full story yourself. Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspective. It's interesting how differently we interpreted the same things haha

[@henryheavy8044]

Oh look somebody is being Butthurt and trying to pretend he’s not 😂

[@johnmatrix3664]

@@henryheavy8044 ???

[@Niloc624]

I think your point on 40k characters being templates is a strong one, and its a part of why I really like necrons and their characters. From Trazyn and Nemesor, to Szeras and the Silent King, necron nobles feel like they can have diversity

[@thejuiceking2219]

yeah, that is cool i made an OC necron phaeron that was a 5 year old child emperor before being turned into an immortal robot, and they don't really care for the conflicts of the galaxy, all they really care about is turning the system they're in into effectively their personal sandpit, building dumb stuff and having bizarre interactions with the xenos there, and they have a bunch of orks kept in a giant cage because they think they're cute, and just in general acts like a 5 year old would if you gave them that sort of power also they have a lychguard that may or may not have been their mother, but they certainly act like it

[@TheRedMan77]

@@thejuiceking2219 That's fucking adorable.

[@toxicslugdispenser1676]

While i much prefer Sci-fi to fantasy, and ofcourse much prefer 40k to warhammer fantasy. It is still really nice to see it from a different perspective, it gives a context and cohesion to why fanes of both universes can appreciate the differences of genre. Good video my dude

[@omegamansparkybubbles9159]

I personally love the Horus Heresy, because it is a bit more focused than 40k and the time scale of like 10 years is far easier to grasp than 10,000. Also it fleshes out the space marines to make them actually interesting compared to 40k

[@DarkCatfish]

Love the scifi/scifantasy of 40k but it feels like grimdark really has swan dived into the realm of grimderp. Especially in the scale of the setting, you're absolutely correct that it's a double edged sword.

[@theStamax]

I've always felt this way too. The big reason is that warhammer just feels more personal to me. You know the locations, the people. Wars feel impactful. There's more personality in a street in altdorf than in entire wh40k systems.

[@AliothAncalagon]

I think it comes down to Tolkien laying out the foundation for fantasy so well, that everything that chooses to build on top of it will almost always at least kinda work. Sci-fi doesn't have a similar blueprint. Dune for example is great, but has too narrow world building to work as a foundation for much more. As a result, while Sci-fi stories by themselves can work well, they always seem to struggle when the universe they inherit is actually legitimately large and old. Its probably no wonder that Warhammer 40k is basically a fantasy setting in space. It was simply the safest option.

[@lashonawaldmeister1111]

I did always feel like many Sci-Fi settings do a bad job of not just being futuristic fantasy. Usually, each planet is just one thing, like one race, and just the same all over the plant, so really they are just standins for a country or a city in a fantasy setting. Only difference is how you get around between them, but even that isn't that different really. For the most part, Sci-Fi settings just up the scale, and replace weapons with more modern ones^^

[@indrickboreale7381]

Star Wars is the biggest criminal in that case. From movies only Naboo feels like a real planet

[@Jam-ti9nd]

@@indrickboreale7381 Biggest offender? literally nearly every planet shown is heterogeneous sometimes having multiple ruling factions per planet. I just don't see all these fantasy tropes your seeing that makes it the "biggest criminal". Space opera and space western, sure. But space fantasy?

[@matthewludlam5433]

I also think some races work better in 40k and fantasy respectively. I really prefer how CA built Necron lore out in 40k than the Tomb Kings in fantasy, but I feel like chaotic demons are lot more believable in in a fantasy settings as it's hard to imagine Slaneshi nudists surviving long against space marine firepower.

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

Also 40k, that i still like as a setting, in the tabletop has became more about melee than firing. And that's silly, being charged first turn of my opponent by a demon that can only take nine wounds at round, after i shoot basically everything at it...

[@GutsGrassesOn]

Dude woke up and decided to speak facts

[@ChristophelusPulps]

I like the scale of 40k because it makes it easier to create stories about "Your Guys" without needing to affect things on the galactic scale.

[@kingleech16]

For most things, I'll take Warhammer Fantasy (barring the End Times, because that never happened). The one thing I like about 40k better is the aesthetic. I really like how all the races are so distinct from one another, to the point they could be out of different IPs without ever being jarring. The Eldar, Tau, and some of the Imperial Guard are standouts to me. On the other hand, the shenanigans used to keep Chaos and Orks as threats are so very tiresome, with better options being available but unused. And no one has the slightest hint of a clue about scale. One thing I like about Warhammer Fantasy is the toning down of the "eliteness" factor. In 40K, pretty much everything other than snotlings and some Imperial Guard are "super-duper veteran elite 1 in a million eat bullets for breakfast badasses who have never been beaten in 10,000 years". But when EVERYONE is like that, it starts to become pretty meaningless pretty quick. While it comes up in Fantasy (particularly for important characters who all clearly ate their Wheaties every morning), I think it is toned down by comparison.

[@42Nightsyesterday]

Just the fact that you can have a game like total war and REALLY live out your fantasy of how the story should go, how to finally beat chaos or how to finally conquer the world as skaven or how to finally bring back the golden age of the elves already lends itself so much more investment than 40k. And I think you’re right that 40k just really lends itself to burn out. So much war, religious zealotry, destruction and all that and it really not only desensitizes you but in fact becomes tedious. There is nothing more tedious than going over the different space marine factions and how they are all badass in this or that way which more often than not is really all just the same. And yeah as much as I love the imperial soldier, there is nothing that brings a tear to my eye like a German dude with a pike taking on a 30ft tall pestilent demon

[@plinfan6541]

The fact that the Pure Grimdarkness of 40k being so overbearing is the main reason I could never get too deep into it. Going through the stuff you are often just hit with "Oh and (Insert faction name here) hates everyone else in the Galaxy that is not like them and wants to brutally destory them. How Original..." Meanwhile in Fantasy you get stuff were the Main Goal of the Order factions is just "Survive" and people actully can work together witheach other and sometimes even live decent lives.

[@kingleech16]

On the other hand, the unrelenting "There will always be WAAAAGGGHHH!" miserable grimdark nature of 40k means it would be a perfect setting for an utterly massive strategy game, like Stellaris but with better battles and such. It'll probably never happen (at least not done well), but it is a nice little hope to keep in the back of the noggin.

[@WingsaberE3]

I just kinda like the "what if" vibe of 40k fights. Like what if giant mechs fought alien bug swarms, or magic space wizard elves fought ww2 vibe human soldiers? That's my sh$t.

[@brightestlight9462]

fantasy has that too--its literally got everything and the kitchen sink in terms of fantasy shit

[@WingsaberE3]

@@brightestlight9462 Thats the thing tho, "fantasy shit" it all has to be a little held back tech wise, sure skaven and dwarves have some crazy steampunk shenanigans, but the stuff in the 40k imperium alone interests me. Yeah the whole argument about no planet really having much worth among millions but I just finished Gaunts Ghosts and the variety among worlds in that alone was awesome.

[@thechief11oo]

Someone finally had the balls to say it, hella respect for this immaculate W bossman

[@matthewrascoe8690]

Fun Fact: Terry Pratchet was hired to do his own novel in the Warhammer verse with his own humanist style, yet it ended up not being done.

[@corryjamieson3909]

Question, Did Neil Gaiman get a try?

[@matthewrascoe8690]

@@corryjamieson3909To my knowledge, I don’t think GW ever asked him if he wanted a try. I do know that they hired one of his buddies, Kim Newman, to do a few vampire novels of varying quality.

[@joedatius]

I think WHFB's biggest strength is its factions and how they interact with eachother. Unless you're apart of the Imperium you just don't matter. The entire setting revolves around the imperium and its incredibly restraining especially for homebrew or just writing in general and that aspect is likely lost on most hardcore 40K fans who don't know what its like to have a setting where everyone but the humans aren't invalidated or just exist to give the human faction more stuff to fight and I think thats a big part of why the Tau had so much pushback because it was the first time in a very very long time where it seemed like there was a faction who actually had their own goals that they could archive that wasn't just mindless war or just jerking themselves off in the corner as a dying race forever

[@doomeranon8669]

nah tau were pushed back against casue they fundamentally shat on the reason people liked the 40k setting: to be the bad guy. being the good guy faction is lame, and you're better off going to star wars for that

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

@@doomeranon8669 Meh people say that but when Trazyn saves a planet everybody is happy and cheer that a non-human inst a threat to humanity and just want to destroy them for reasons.

[@doomeranon8669]

@@heitorpedrodegodoi5646 because the audience changed.

[@anna-flora999]

​@@doomeranon8669so all warhammer 40k Fans are conrad curze, the whiniest and most pathetic primarch?

[@crashstarr6531]

It's not even up for debate. No skaven in 40k, ergo fantasy is the winner.

[@marconarvaez9871]

40k does have the cooler aesthetics (still love "renaissance with lion chickens" tho), but over time I started to greatly prefer Fantasy over it. Agreed on every single point of yours, particularily scale and character morality, but I think the biggest thing for me is tone. I'm a sucker for small-scale, common people stuff, and a setting where anyone who's not a named character is working 25 hours a day at the Baby Meatgrinderum, where every single story has to take place in a warzone or else the guys that memorize bolter pattern cartridge sizes get bored, and everyone is a murderous sociopath except for like five named characters (four of which are dead) is something I've come to hate. Fantasy is still dark, don't get me wrong, but you can actually point at people you'd hang out with and places where it'd be at least fine to live in, while in 40k any pleasure/civilized world we get to see is being annihilated and Ultramar is attacked so often no one could actually live a halfway decent life there - and it'll never change because that's the point of the setting. Warhammer Fantasy had hope, and that's what made it matter.

[@big_tymerro]

I absolutely love Warhammer Fantasy, probably my favorite fantasy setting apart from Elder Scrolls. There are so many little interesting tidbits of lore aside from the general stuff that just makes it amazing. Just look up Gazul, objectively the best Dwarf Ancestor God, minor shit like that is cool af.

[@sodagirl1092]

I think a lot of Fantasy shines through in its Lore or in the books written about the setting, where the protagonists manage to overcome the threat to them either through their own strengths, strategic planning or in some cases pure luck, it feels realistic and it actually creates a form of suspense because a character you like could actually get killed off even if they are the protagonist of whatever scenario you're reading about Meanwhile in 40k it boils down to this: "And then the Ultramarines found a magical rock that sealed away the villain instantly." *roll credits*

[@BigBroKuma]

Personally I just like how fantasy doesn't focus on the Empire/Imperium only I feel like fantasy factions are kinda limited and not really developed in the current setting

[@Bluecho4]

The appeal of boilerplate fantasy tropes - elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. - is the familiarity. It won't always surprise you (although putting new spins on the classic Tolkien tropes, rather than just blindly aping them, can only help your work), but it's always easy to understand. It's the fantasy equivalent to comfort food. Sometimes, you don't want someone's experimental Thai-Mexican Fusion dish. Sometimes you just want a good stew. Moreover, I would argue that, to the lay person, the familiar tropes Warhammer Fantasy repeats make it more approachable. If your only exposure to fantasy (outside Harry Potter) is Tolkien (novel, films, or that new series) or the many works copying Tolkien, or simply Cultural Osmosis, it's very easy to "get" Warhammer Fantasy. The Dwarves are dwarves, the various flavors of Elves are elves, the Orcs are orcs, the humans are humans (in Landsknecht and Arthurian flavors, among others). Vampire Counts are classic Gothic Horror undead, and the Tomb Kings are kickass mummified undead. It's extremely easy to find at least one faction, if not several, from the WHFB army roster that you can grok immediately. While this makes them very plain (which, as an aside, is as much a product of Warhammer Fantasy having its roots in the 80s, when this was all fresher), it means the newbie Fantasy Enjoyer has multiple obvious places they can jump onto with little trouble. It's easy to get into the world, because it's so familiar. 40K and Age of Sigmar both have the problem that, for everything that's familiar, there's also a whole lot that's difficult to grasp on the surface. Aside from maybe the Imperial Guard and the Orks, 40K factions need a bit of explaining for new people to get their head around. And even then, it might take them a bit of exploration before they really "get" the faction, what they're about and how they play. (Plus, there are so many highly specific variants thereof, especially for Space Marines, it just raises more questions). The highly specific, gothic inspired Science Fantasy of 40K is also just a lot less familiar to the lay person. But the difference is all the more stark when comparing Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. Because for all they have in common, the one zigs where they other zags. AoS certainly does a lot to explore alternative fantasy concepts, and create new expressions of old fantasy races. But while this makes them visually and conceptually distinct, that also makes it difficult for a newbie to Warhammer to grasp immediately. How can a person who only knows Dracula to understand what an Ossiarch Bonereaper is? What's a Fyreslayer? Wait, the Idoneth Deepkin AREN'T just mermaids? I must be clear: of course it's possible for a new person to have all these armies _explained_ to them. The issue is that the familiarity of the old tropes made it easy to jump on. You already basically know how normal dwarves work. Here's an army of normal dwarves, go nuts. Many original AoS factions are weird in an unfamiliar way. Not bad, but not what a bog standard Fantasy Enjoyer was expecting when they got curious about fantasy wargames. They don't fit the mental image, and seem to resist conforming to it. When you hear "fallen heroes ascended into heavenly warriors", you'd probably think some kind of angels. Not...Space Marines in fantasy. If you're even aware of what a Space Marine is. Again, how much explaining and diagrams is a newbie Warhammer fan going to need to wrap their head around the Ossiarch Bonereapers? And is this really going to inspire visceral interest in them, in the same way the Tomb Kings would? All you need to say is "the mummy faction", and the new fan is going to know immediately whether or not they want to play Tomb Kings. They "get" Tomb Kings on the spot, whether having them described or seeing the models. The strongest of AoS's new factions, and the ones that attract attention, are the ones that, even when doing their own thing, are easy to grok. Kharadron Overlords are certainly a departure from normal dwarves, but "steampunk sky dwarves" is a powerful mental image that makes you want to know more. And the Nighthaunt are just sublime. Just tell a person they're "the ghost faction", and show them their models. They'll know if they want to play Nighthaunt on the spot. One big misstep with AoS is taking many of the "vanilla" fantasy armies from Warhammer Fantasy, and sticking them all in one army. And Cities of Sigmar doesn't really get much attention, much less stand out. They're a clearing house for all the old model ranges GW don't want to get rid of outright, because it would lose a touchstone for new players (and old players), but don't care enough to refresh. (At least not until The Old World, where all bets are off). None of the distinct factions get room to breathe in CoS. They barely have their own lore or cultural identity. What should be the onboarding part of AoS is kind of an afterthought.

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

City of Sigmar will soon disappear from the setting, as well all the races that are not renowed by a long time, like skavens and lizardmen (also because they made Seraphon too strong on the tabletop). They are more focused on the new factions and at adding new ones because realms are much like a galaxy in 40k, you can put out new stuff just because... I had to print out my Lizardman army because the miniatures are shitty and old, i was in my 20 when some of them were released... And i was sick of waiting GW while they were making new armies out of nowhere...

[@neron93939]

I think you're forgetting the part where a lot of fantasy fans will come out as soon as they see firearms in FB. I've seen people think that spears and pikes are too technological and spoil the fantasy. Yes, the Warhammer 40k is unusual, but it's attractively unusual. The wizard in the tower is so familiar, but if you get into wizards on a spaceship, nothing can surpass it, because it's just cool.

[@emmahagens]

warhammer fantasty is amazing. i am only more interested in 40k lore because of the end times. ad yeah, 40k can be described as science fantasy, like how star wars is just a lost prince that rescues a princess from the dark knight who works for the evil wizard

[@anamericangrizzlybear8315]

The Virgin 40k Imperium or Man vs The Chad Fantasy Empire of Man, they have Sigmar, Karl Franz/Elector Counts, Ubersreik 5, and they fight basically the same horrors and daemons with nothing more than Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder

[@TheGoodLuc]

And Settra, who DOES NOT SERVE!

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

I’ve always loved how Warhammer essentially took Martin Luther’s Germany and put it in a fantasy setting pretty faithfully.

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

So much so that it's developed into its own race and, besides the costume flare and Germanic names, the Empire of Man totally stands out as its own nation believable within its own world. When they added Cathay to TWW3, it was PAINFULLY evident the difference 40 years in the oven makes versus like 1-2 at most. That's why I don't understand people fangirling over Araby or Ind when they're more or less their real life counterparts but with one fantastical unit.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@TaRAAASHBAGS It still resembles the historical Holy Roman Empire pretty closely, though. I still miss that they don’t have pikemen, which was a staple of Swiss and German troops of the period. Oh well; we get Balthasar Gelt in recompense, I suppose.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 The tabletop game does have pikemen, they are just not used nearly as often as halberdiers, because as rules changed, +2 Strength was more valuable than two extra ranks. This led to them being 'forgotten'.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@krinkrin5982 must have been an old edition

[@krinkrin5982]

@@TitusCastiglione1503 I've checked the rulebook. Core Warhammer has spearmen, which can fight in 2 ranks. Pikes are present in the Dogs of War army book and extend this to 4 ranks.

[@peterclarke7240]

For me, Warhammer Fantasy had that Tolkienesque element of "there are good guys, there are bad guys. The good guys might be led by bad guys, but they're still the good guys." In 40k, while I love the lore, the sheer constant teenage edginess of it all wears me down, sometimes.

[@stevestrangelove4970]

The thing i love of fantasy is the mix of fantasy, history and different flavors of fantasy. On one side i love how history and fantasy mix, as someone who loves fantasy and history its like the best mix ever, but on the other side, you can get any flavor of fantasy, from high fantasy with the elves, spooky druidic with wood elves, swashbuckler with tilea or stalia and even some egyptian mummies or alien lizards. And because everything is soo entangled with history or cultures, every blank space that wasn't filled you can just pick a book of history and fill it, want some tomb king adventure but there is not much written about them? what about add some egyptian social systems or administrations and you are building tomb kings in a sense that makes sense.

[@Lord_Brownie]

The Drukhari wish they had the fashion sense of the Druchii

[@luigiwithabeard98]

Pancreas love the work I just want to say this I said this in my first comment but I love the work you got me into Warhammer and now I'm happy necron player

[@sev1120]

A note about those good games: Generally speaking, the fantasy games give more perspectives than just a singular faction, whereas most 40k games focus around the space marines as the main characters. Mark of Chaos has: Empire Chaos Skaven High and dark elves And greenskin tribes Total war warhammer has every major faction playable to some extent, and even some that don't have any army book to draw from ir speak of (before Total War, Norsca was just exclusively warriors of chaos, but now they're their own group with more nuance than how to kill a village Vermintide is set in the empire, but you have representatives of the wood elves, dwarfs and bretonnia as playable characters (even if Kruber is stretching the bretonnian rep a tad) 40k games? Dawn of war 1 and 2 (outside of expansions) campain faction? Space marines Space marine? Space marines Space hulk? Space marines The main exceptions are notable enough to be known by name: mechanicus (which is in the imperium), inquisitor (which is also in the imperium), necromunda games (imperium again)

[@heartpaid6767]

The only thing I loved about 40k were Tau. A truly good faction that wanted well for everyone, valued every life and they relied on technology and outranging their opponents. All of this at the cost of them being the smallest major race, having unrealistic hopes of surviving and slowly shrinking. It was the grimdark part for me. But community trashtalked them so much and were butthurt, that their lore got ruined to fit the "mind controlled society with oligarchs" (seriously, ethereals were fighting at the fronts with their beloved soldiers... why would you make them look bad????), and so they are forcibly made to not be good guys anymore. Thus I became a fantasy fan.

[@Blazimirus]

ew

[@Dogmelter42]

For me, it's about fifty-fifty. I like 40k's factions and themes, moreso than Fantasy's. But I also love a lot more of Fantasy's characters and individual stories than the factions as a whole. And Age of Sigmar can stay in the corner and think about what it's done a little longer, before I warm to it.

[@redpilldiogenes4741]

Play age of sigmar and you’ll probably warm to it

[@DanielKrafftt]

Age of Sigmar is way better then warhammer fantasy lol

[@wingedhussar8552]

The reason I love Warhammer fantasy more than 40k is that the mortal chaos designs are more unique imo. The humans dedicated to specific chaos gods in particular are so cool compared to their chaos marine counterparts that just look like pimped out normal marines. Putrid blightkings are my favorite kit of any Warhammer setting for this reason. That plus skaven are more fun than tyrranids.

[@SamueL-td7fb]

I think slamming rusty nails down your urethra is more entertaining than anything the Nids have to offer

[@aleksandar7974]

I love the chaos warriors so much. They're what got me into the setting of WH Fantasy (Seeing the Mark of Chaos cinematic trailer was really what made them click for me). Wasn't ever really a fan of the demon side of the chaos armies, the chaos warriors are way cooler for me.

[@vladprus4019]

Mortals serving Chaos in 40k: same as regular Space Marines, but more egdy and on the side of "enemy". Serve Chaos, because of philosophy taken from Internet edgelords. The same, but Fantasy: heavy metal crazy vikings. Serve Chaos, because how harsh environment far north shaped their culture to promote being ruthless badasses. Yeah, one is (subjectively) much more cool than the other.

[@TayzerLazerGames]

The floor is higher for 40k, the setting is more unique & has very distinct themes. Most of the factions when they come out were very visually distinct and recognisable. A lot of fantasy could just be confused for another fantasy universe. However the ceiling is much higher in fantasy, it's stories based on its characters are much more appealing. And as you said, it's much smaller in scope so things feel more detailed and alive in each section.

[@joedatius]

40K can be mistaken for just about any other scifi just as fantasy can be. Tyranids are an overt ripoff of Xenomorphs. Eldar are literally just WHFantasy Elfs in space. Necron used to be unique but they changed them into Tomb Kings from Fantasy. The Imperium is basically just the cult of Sigmar just made bigger. and literally at the daemons are just the same from Fantasy

[@zoidsfan12]

Honestly the fact that 40k is like you took a fantasy setting and put it in a sci-fi year is the big appeal for me. I enjoy the time scale, reading about traitor terminators that are still salty over the heresy because they fought in it so have had 10,000 years to ruminate. To me I think that's the big difference between settings, fantasy feels tiny compared to how massive 40k is on paper. Issue is with 40k is honestly what we actually know is very little. It's kinda like when you are first playing a game and thinking "woah I wonder if I can go there later" and realizing how small and short the game really is. Fantasy from what I have seen takes the opposite approach where you have a small setting that gets fleshed out pretty deeply. The best way I could compare it is to say that fantasy you get a crusader kings level density of a map whilst in 40k you have near infinite planets but a single battle can wipe a planet out. I'm commenting at the 2 minute mark so most of this may get covered anyway.

[@buggyboy2849]

Just wanted to point out that sci-fi doesn't necessarily HAVE to be set in space, I've noticed many people disregard Earthbound settings as "true sci-fi" because there are no spaceships or hundreds of planets. I personally prefer small scale sci-fi settings or ones that don't even feature aliens but rather mutants or new terrestrial organisms. For example System Shock 2 is an amazing example of a sci-fi that looks like it's a space scale sci-fi but it's just humanity vs an AI in space, and the best part is that the supposed aliens were just mutated creatures from Earth that ended up on a foreign planet which fooled everyone into classifying them as first contact aliens. I love that concept! There's also the Resident Evil franchise with a variety of enemies and settings that rival some space operas. People should stop associating sci-fi with space and space opera, nothing beats the up close and personal of a single planet/environment conflict.

[@morgoth6273]

One word, "dwarves" Debate closed, have a nice day

[@localagoraphobe]

*ROCK AND STONE!*

[@emmahagens]

but consider: space dwarves

[@SaintNamedSlickback]

Oh boy you are going to be thrilled when you hear about the most recent 40k army

[@mikd157]

GOING IN THE FU- never mind

[@Lord_Brownie]

Such a dwarfy thing to say

[@alastairtivy-harris8129]

That ending was incredible. And to top it off, you named it "Tongue in Cheek".

[@Jonas_Fox]

I thought I was a Science Fiction guy going into "the hobby" but slowly found I enjoyed the fantasy side's games and books more. I couldn't put my finger on it really but this helped make sense out of my confused feelings.

[@vovabars1234]

It’s actually possible to take fantasy seriously unlike 40k Also it has an awesome comprehensive game

[@SomeoneYouDontKnowOfficial]

I gotta say, despite my introduction to warhammer as a whole being a 40 part series of 30 minute videos on 40k in chronological order up to the 13th Black Crusade and thinking that Space Marines are really cool, I'm really coming to like Warhammer Fantasy better for one simple reason: Since Warhammer Fantasy is fantasy there is magic, and one of the most magical things that Warhammer Fantasy has almost exclusively compared to 40k is "Diplomacy". I like 40k when I want mindless violence, but more often than not, I'm liking Warhammer Fantasy

[@Ottersanity]

I missed the chance to get into Warhammer Fantasy as it ended a few years before I found out about Warhammer. It seemed really cool and had some amazing models. Hopefully when they make Old World I’ll get some of the models and make a decent army.

[@feuerklinge9004]

Well said. Skaven and Lizardmen are also a big reason for me.

[@notareptilianiswear.6600]

There is no literal dinosaur damage in 40k. I rest my case, your honor.

[@Defileros]

Just the fact that 90% of WHFantasy isn’t “Space Marines kicks today’s punchbag” makes Fantasy better then 40k

[@FoxDie978]

I was introduced to 40K before Fantasy but I started seeing stuff about it soon after. The whole thing of them being two universes was never really made clear to me until a year or so ago, but I think they both have their cool and redeeming qualities that make them enjoyable.

[@ForgottenHonor0]

PNW: "Warhammer Fantasy is better than 40k!" Me: "TO THE KING! TO THE KING!"

[@Spartan135]

SUMMON THE ELECTOR COUNTS!

[@DaGreatDoofus]

I’ve gotten into debates with friends of mine who prefer 40K while I prefer Fantasy. I have made similar points but this video has made me feel validated and I appreciate the effort you have put in. You are polite in expressing your beliefs and I thank you for posting this for people like me to appreciate a like mind.

[@johnpjones1775]

About the chaos gods, they’re gods in both settings. In 40K the emperor can be argued to A. Have known how the warp works and was hoping to destroy the powers of the chaos gods by preventing their worship, or B. Was always planning to ascend to godhood himself at some point to fight the chaos gods on equal terms.

[@nwerner3654]

I recently gave Warhammer 2 a second shot as the Empire after getting confused with the campaign and I must say it is one of the most gratifying video game experiences I've played in recent times. Unifying the empire and liberating territory from enemies at all sides feels really awesome and seems like something that no 40k game able to simulate. Also, as an Imperial Guard collector, the fact that there are NO SPACE MARINE-GLORY BOYS HOGGING ALL THE CREDIT is mega based. The idea that super-natural/god-powered units seem to be uniquely excluded from the empire just makes the human struggle against adversity that much more gratifying and holding it all together that much more earned.

[@atanaspetkov580]

Bit of a counter opinion, but I have the opposite takeaway with your thoughts on scale. Yes, having cities like Nuln fall is a big deal, but I feel like these kinds of accomplishments are too high stakes for some of the characters. This is what I think of Grom occupying Nuln, although it was brief. This thought process might be because I am used to the Ciaphas Cain series where all of the stories have very low stakes. Even Eisenhorn was pretty self contained. The only book that I have read so far that portray events that impact the setting are the Yarrick Omnibus, and the War for Armageddon omnibus. What's weird is that I share the same opinion you have towards scale when it comes to Age Of Sigmar. The whole realms stuff just doesn't appeal to me. Anyway, nice video as usual!

[@atanaspetkov580]

It also doesn't help that one of the GW writers stated that there are always enough elves to meet the demands of the story. In other words, GW's writing quality is iffy.

[@drukharimatter2962]

The big reason I’ve always liked fantasy more is because of the great lore and characters. I remember as a young pre-teen reading about EVERY fantasy character. I didn’t care what faction it was, I had to learn about them. And the factions as a whole. Then I got into the novels…and fell in love even more. 40k for me always seems to be in a constant circle of having to outdo itself by being more grim dark, more evil, more science, more space marines, and then more space marines. I feel like when I’ve read about one space marine, I’ve read them all. One drukhari is the same as the others, one ork is no different than another, etc. it’s all just….boring. Fantasy just seems to be more approachable, but once you get into the lore, you can go as deep as you want. Plus goblin fanatics/night goblins.

[@Sigmagnat650]

To your point on the smaller scale providing a sense of drama, I think another aspect of that where WHF is a world where everyone must cohabitate with each other. That proximity creates more drama, intrigue, and motives. In 40k, a lot of the Chaos forces are lurking around or within the Eye of Terror. Sure it creates a random looming series of threats and tension, but it's unseen and at a distance. An abstract threat, if you will, more often than not. Whereas Skaven? Those rat bastards could be lurking in any Altdorf sewer, Dwarf underway, or ruined settlement for years before anyone finds out that it's too late.

[@GameAnGrog]

Fantasy has more meaningful variety in its armies, characters, tone and setting. From Humanity to Skaven, Lizardmen to Ogres, and many more. From cities to desert necropolis', jungle temples and underground fortresses. Moments of triumph, fear, despair, hope, or even humor. There's something for almost anyone. What about 40K? Well, everyone is dying everywhere and always, suffering endlessly, living short shitty lives on crowded smog choked shitholes where everyone (except maybe the Tau and Salamanders) is evil, an asshole, or an evil asshole, with faces hidden behind a mask or half a tanks worth of power armor.

[@Azraiel213]

Using Reikland footage as your backdrop for why Warhammer Fantasy is so amazing was literal perfecrion, by the way.

[@dinodog6068]

I tend to agree. In 40k the individual doesn't matter. Hell, 99 percent of humanity is doomed to either be worked to death in a factory, or die in the imperial guard. In the fantasy setting, people matter. A farm peasant can become an efficient hunter of beast men, a vampire can prevent an end of the world event, a dwarf can slay every eldritch horror under the sun, and a thief can become a mighty Hammer of Ulric. The storied lives of people can have an actual impact on the world.

[@cadis4257]

Even though the setting is now gone. Its nice people still remember and talk about it. RIP warhammer fantasy and I spit on GW for blowing it up.

[@generalgrizzly7914]

The faction diversity in fantasy is just better and more varied than what we see in 40k in my opinion. Also I will take the setting that has skaven over the insert generic hivemind bug race any day. - Characters again more relatable, charismatic or more menacing given the scale and more grounded nature of the setting. - Battles feel more meaningful - Again the history and rich lore - also don't get me wrong the astartes are awesome but they take away sometimes from how dire situations get. Its always guard gets swamped or is meatshield and then bam space marines show up and save the day. While in fantasy there is less of that and characters have to survive out of sheer wit, skill or just plain luck. - Again fantasy has skaven and lizardmen, 40k has nids and Tau, enough said

[@shorewall]

For real, 40K would benefit a lot from adding Skaven and Lizardmen.

[@Trynt33]

Personally the Tau should be shifted towards the dominant focus especially with the Farsight Enclave waking up to justice, and the Tyranids are more than just insert generic hivemind bug race, the Zerg literally cribbed them along with everything else Starcraft took. The Tyranids are living cosmic horror, their scale unknowable with their approaches just as mysterious, from a hive fleet that has specialized to hunting warp entities to another that intelligently takes a farming approach to collecting its biomass. Not to mention they're only barely in coordination with different hive fleets encountering each other usually ripping each other apart to gain biomass, even the "queens" are just for those fleets and not for the collective whole. The Tyranids are horrifying dropped into 40k's setting considering their existence thwarts reasoning, being a bigger threat than Chaos due to their adaptability and with no signs of stopping, their tendrils might even be literal as the galaxy is just fighting the skin flakes of some all-consuming entity like Sin from FFX (Though for real it should have Skaven and Lizardmen, the Old Ones are even in both settings so just have a whole faction of lizardmen that held out! Skaven should be a bigger threat than Genestealer Cults with the field day they'd have eating through hive cities, not to mention their collective numbers could just make the Horned Rat in the warp as a contender deity. If the God-Emperor can act as a lighthouse, the Horned Rat should be krumping all over human worlds)

[@nanni-buyerofcopper]

Tbh i just like Fantasy more than 40k because i like its more historically adjacent theme. Something about "almost real history but with room for creativity" is just so cool to me.

[@tannermccollum7060]

Fantasy has a Aztec lizards riding dinosaurs. 40k doesn't do I need to say more?

[@Parasil]

I like 40k more now simply because of the addition of ironkin, these little guys have a special place in my heart. Really though I just kind of like the dark parody of modern problems because it offers some kind of escapism to see all the actual horrible things happening taken to such an insane degree it kind of melts away for me