Why We Don't See Scout Rushes In Today's Meta

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

Let me know what you think of this style of video! Also feel free to continue the discussion in the comments and give your thoughts as well

[@SirLaurenceNZ_2]

I love these kind of discussions

[@Lich_Kingg]

Cause men at arms are better, also the deers Spawn too far of the Tc in the DE

[@ivanjoaquinfurno900]

Nice topic and good explanation

[@heldersilvestre5729]

Love it

[@Skritshell]

Very well articulated and explained. Would be nice to see more of these.

[@ianschleh8488]

*me leaving my TC idle in dark age: “soTHAT’S why I’m losing... it’s the META shift”

[@genericyoutubeaccount579]

level 1: FC into knights Level 2: Scouts into knights Level 3: Scouts into skirms into knight-skirm Level 100: Just go M@A into Archers

[@asdf123311]

You forgot level 0: FC into resign

[@dogeofgreatness2222]

@@asdf123311 ah so thats what my level falls in .......

[@uberweeb2201]

@@asdf123311 that is my favorite strat on gold rush when my oponent gets his central castle up first

[@Tpoleful]

@@uberweeb2201 How your opponent gets the central castle first if you're the one fast castling?

[@uberweeb2201]

@@Tpoleful we were up around the same time but he somehow managed to get his 690stone first

[@erwinwendler4621]

The Irony though.. tracking did feel pretty useless before but having it for free now actually helps a lot 11

[@HumzaCrumza]

As a big Scout Rush fan, this makes me sad :(

[@TheChimples]

I still think scouts are feasible on really open maps. It also depends on what the opponent is doing.

[@psyysp171]

@@TheChimples Also I think that the lower your rating is, the better scout rushes get. Most players can not consistently quick wall, lower players won't be always walled before feudal etc. What Hera's saying mostly applies to the top 5% of players maybe. Althought their still might be a valid point, that an archer rush is better most of the time.

[@lambchopsmtl]

I've won plenty of games with scouts, but I am really low elo, under 1k it's still a good strat.

[@asharedo]

@@lambchopsmtl Yeah literally most of the games I win is from scout rush and they just give up in like 2 mins of me owning their villagers lol

[@ethanpappas2502]

i really like scouts and archers

[@connorbroderick7148]

Me:sees this video Also me: Got scout rushed every game in my last 10 games.

[@Feeshermon]

This is only really applicable to like 1500+ 1v1 ELO

[@yorick9435]

Same dude, everything he says makes sense, but what I experience in my actual games is a lot different

[@KyeHortonNinjaWindowCleaning]

For a lower level player a couple of spears and well placed buildings can really hinder a scout rush. On the upside many low Elo players rely too much on the scout rush so if you can turtle into castle or harass using archers and a spearman you used to defend while saving that food you can make your enemy spend food on scouts and skirms. Once that happens you’ll get a better castle time and can make a few knights for an easy win.

[@taowroland8697]

Viper: "time to scout rush"

[@threeprongedfork7061]

Also I would love to see an analysis like this with clips from different matches where people tried scout rushes and it fails or succeeds

[@tktbarquette9594]

You are 100% right, just ridiculously hard to make scout rush profitable, From France merci pour tes vidéos

[@fibonachos4810]

I think in general the meta shifted to Investing more ressources into walling. The safety of not loosing a vill just outweights the eco loss. If BoA2 showed us anything it is that players will ALWAYS find a way to wall - and even If it is palisade on all sides. At least conscerning this topic the Map gen is not to blame

[@Progeusz]

It is to blame partly because we no longer have old map generations where player sometimes only had one woodline within 30 tiles of town center. That kind of map is impossible to wall in dark age without sacrificing eco.

[@reclutacontramontina5354]

Fibo Nachos Not only that but the map generation is slowly turning more into green arabia style (for almost every map) with deer close to the TC/mill, safe wood at the back, wallable maps, etc. One thing I always loved of AoE that no other strategy game has, and I mean it, no other game has it, is it's balance between micro and macro; sometimes you had an awful map which required a more cautious approach with your build order and your army positioning before you could wall your base enough to go for a counter attack. We all blamed the map on us losing from time to time, but most of the time it was us just not adapting to it properly. Nowadays I don't see the necessity for a player to adapt to a map, they know they can get away with going archers (a slow unit) without risking his villagers getting picked apart one by one by scouts, which makes the metagame more and more profitable. I fear the game will gradually swift into a moba-like (not literally) in the sense that microing your units will be more important that whatever you're doing with your base, and the strategy behind a good portion of the build order will be at least a little irrelevant. We already see it with the auto-scout and the auto-farm-reseeding options. Yeah the auto-scouting isn't good but they could improve it to be almost always a must.

[@nils_nyfiken9219]

Recluta Con Tramontina I agree, they’re making the game simpler and more accessible, but at the expense of changing the game and the spirit of it

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

yes i definitely agree with your reasoning, thats the fundamentals of it basically. I will say though, that map gen just facilitates the process, and makes it more consistent. In some of those boa games, we were able to punish walls alot easier than most 1v1 games

[@kevintotems6097]

Loved this style Hera

[@isaaclopez5322]

It's sad to have trained the scouts meta for several months and now see this. :(

[@Progeusz]

They should still work before you get to the top of ladder.

[@rhyseborland9101]

Dude I'm in the same boat! Been practicing specifically with Indians scouts into Camels

[@HumzaCrumza]

It’s still useful on very open maps like Acropolis so your practice isn’t in vain :)

[@ellisaoc8857]

They should change arabia that its more open again just like the older version on voobly and HD was

[@rickychardzz]

Dude for years I’ve been doing scouts and knights.......

[@jordivermeulen2519]

I think there are two additional factors from what I've seen in high-level games. 1. Players seem to make a few spears more often. I think they do it because it's the fastest feudal age unit you can get out, as you will always have a barracks (unless you're going straight FC, in which case you are obviously walled). 2. Because ranged units are currently so dominant, I've seen a lot more drush FC. The drush gets in fast enough that your opponent is unlikely to be walled, and gives you enough time to wall yourself. I think most of these points don't really apply to lower rated games; Franks is still the civ with the highest winrate overall on Arabia, and I don't see people going for archers with them.

[@AnujAgrawal08]

`Good point.. the second one.. Hera just told us why pro players hardly ever go for Franks on maps that are even remotely wallable.

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

great points. Love how u highlighted the fact that the drush usually can get some sort of damage before the walls!

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

-Wellfed_Lithuanian has entered the chat

[@sireagle60]

Hera, An absolutely AWESOME post! These types of videos are MUCH more helpful than trying to provide instructions while playing. Please continue to post videos of this style. I have been trying to master Mongol’s scout rush for a while now. I want to play at a high level. This video will have a tremendous impact to my strategies. I am now going to focus on Archer civs. Thank you very much for your sage guidance.

[@mininightmarerh]

Thanks for pumping out all these great videos! Keep up the good work man!

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

Hera must've gone fast Imp into conscription ;)

[@angelmelendezc]

Hey there Hera, loved the video! This kind of content is really good IMHO, since it gives us lower ELO players better perspective. I also liked a lot the interview you had with Spirit of the Law, which also tackles current meta changes (22v20 pop rushes, etc). Keep up the great work!

[@matthewmcneany]

Shit like this is my jam. I think there's not insignificant number of age viewers who are more interested in this sort of strategic overview than in whacky strats or displays of micro finesse. Obviously not every video wants to be like this but I think the scripted YT content makes a nice change. On a similar note it feels like it's been a while since Hera did an overexplain video. I'm sure a lot of players at a bunch of levels would really appreciate a video where you break down exactly what you and/or an opponent are doing and why. Stuff like why Baracks as part of a forward wall makes sense or why you can or can't place farms at a particular point in the build order, that sort of thing.

[@Sabra1985]

This is probably what I enjoy watching most on this channel and the arguments you make I value more than other streamers. I consider myself a below average player, and I only play against AI, but your videos on build orders, unit control, counters, civs etc has really brought more enjoyment of the game for me!

[@SocksyyAU]

Great vid! Another important point is that Feudal archers have the same frame delay now in DE as xbow, so they can hit and run quicker therefore making scouts even weaker. rip the 22 pop scout meta on voobly, you will be remembered.

[@Waschlack]

I really like the commentary style of videos, reminds me of the old call of duty days and I think it's really interesting to hear a pro player's opinion on different topics. Keep it up :)

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

thanks man will do

[@brothir]

I remember having a discussion with someone in chat during Redbull Wololo about Land Madness, and his argument was that it was a bad map because it was artificially aggressive. Well, you could spin that around and say that all other maps are artificially defensive, and use this scout rush argument as a lever to that effect.

[@fredsmit3481]

Hera, great video! I like the clear way you explain things and the format of this video. I learned a lot. As a low ELO player my scout rushes don't do well due to walls and the easy counter with pikemen.

[@legion2590]

Just goes to show how difficult it is to balance games. Ideally there should be several viable opening military options that keep the opponent honest/guessing with their early game scouting. It's a bummer to see scouts diminished so much. Also subscribed :)

[@ImSquiggs]

YES! More of these please! For my taste I say don't worry too much about the video in the back, it's nice to be there but I'm mostly just here for a podcast like experience breaking down mechanics. You nailed the format though, I would watch every video you made in this series.

[@alexkfridges]

I really like this style of video. Top player insight into the reasons behind meta shits and high level strategy helps me understand the game alot more :)

[@shaifuseth5566]

Very precise , and no obvious talks/ general talk in circles. So the structure was good

[@melz1362]

Thanks Hera - I do appreciate this kind of video that is very informative and also confirms why my scouts feel bad :( It does also feel so relatable when you think about it if you have 10-15 knights to try and clean up 30 crossbows... then you'll probably lose all your knights as its so true you cannot get ontop of the crossbows. Everyone just kites away so easily. Each shot a knight is killed and by the time your ontop of them 15 knights became like 5. I also remember seeing another video where I think you were vs someone not high up or known and even they knew how to quick wall vs your scouts and you were like "Okay! I guess everyone is Viper nowadays" and its so true and funny at the same time. Feels like a lot more people do this now.

[@sebastianbinder8215]

Really like this kind of video. The game is so complex that a pros view is very helpful to improve judgement of stats and situations. Hera try’s to find as much time as possible to answer chat questions on stream but naturally this time will always be limited so having a full sequence to go in depth on a certain topic is fantastic :)

[@maxmustermax3937]

Hey, I like this style of content which might reach the little more advanced players. I mean we don't need 100 guides for a archer BO again and again. Thanks for sharing your game experience. Would like to see more of these videos, maybe with situation analyzing.

[@brothir]

Regarding the Elite Skirm upgrade, it has had an interesting journey. The reasearch time was always the same, but it's cost has been adjusted both up and down. Before 4.8, it cost 250 wood and 160 gold, and 4.8 turned it down to 200 wood and 100 gold. DE turned it up to 230 wood and 130 gold, so still cheaper than traditional AoC balance.

[@maranathashalom9402]

"The meta shift. IT'S OVER THERE! IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!" **panicking townsfolk run down the street in terror**

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

I started playing this game with DE and imo Scout Rush is still a good beginner build order primarily because you don't need to worry about gold income for your unit production, just food and wood. So it's a good build order to start practicing with because it's less complex than drush, archers, towers, or FC in terms of managing your eco. It's also more successful at lower levels because low-level opponents can sometimes struggle to wall up in time for the arrival of the scouts. It also provides new players with a few "Aha!" moments, like realising that there's still value in idling enemy villagers even if you don't get vill kills, or learning that using control groups vastly improves your ability to react to things quickly on different parts of the map. I can actually attest that doing Scout Rushes actually forced me to learn how to take deer in various ways because the food boost from extra hunt really helps satisfy the food demand of this build. I can totally get why it's not seen at high-level play, but I will still stand by Scout Rushing as a valuable part of the game for brand new players.

[@nostalgicdouchebag1912]

I kind of agree and understand, I myself started with scouts into archers but now I've been going M@A into archers or drush FC. I've not gone scouts in a long time

[@whowhat4450]

10:45 just gonna take a quick swig of water! Did I say squig I ment swing! lol.

[@jammerlammer546]

What's funny is that swig is the right word and not swing

[@HeraAgeofEmpires2]

@@jammerlammer546 LMAO really??

[@BekeroParyin]

@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 yep 11

[@johnhoward5908]

I noticed that too 11

[@Astigos]

I really like this kind of content! I was doing scout rush at 1k elo as was having a lot of success actually. Those 1k players arent super great at quick walling and if you split into two scout groups you can split their attention so much and actually do damage.

[@Porglit]

I DEFINITELY loved this style. Informative, in depth, and something I can use to really improve my game. More of this =)

[@vultoneo]

I like the vid :), but a bit higher production value would be nice. Some examples: A simple power point presentation with listing all points (or just a list on the stream overlay) goes a long way. Potencially with time stamps in the description Some example clips compareing knights vs archers in DE and voobly Some example maps from DE and voobly to compare Suggest some potential solutions (better pathing? no palasite wall mod?) anyway, you get the point :)

[@alucardofficial7074]

Loved the video, always great to listen to top players explain the games current meta and the reasons for it. Subbed!

[@Steven-oy6uj]

Love this style of video. I know its hard to do with AOE2 content, but I love videos that I can listen to while doing mindless work.

[@Progeusz]

Such a cool video! Incredibly well thought out, I enjoyed the way you explained shift in meta point by point.

[@ComeRee]

Hera, thank you for the content. I'm a noob by all means [havent even completed my 10 ranked matches yet], but I love this game as much as it frustrates me in my inability to do all that I need to do [when it needs to be done!]. I'm a Welshman, and quite particular about trying to learn how to use the Celts. My Sim boom is okay against Moderate AI, but I feel I'm struggling in a few areas: Fully walling [learning how to be cost effective with walling], the ability to keep focus on both attack and defence/boom, but the worst is not getting my units out/scouting my enemy well enough to know where to send my unit/rush [honestly speaking, my rush game is beyond weak]. If theres any chance you could go over siege micro or just micro in general, I feel that would help me out tenfold - but also some advice on good accompaniment alongside siege [onagers/rams] and I'd be heavily appreciative! Diolch yn fawr a gariad fawr o Gymru - Thank you very much and much love from Wales!

[@BuyingSouthFlorida]

Great content, this really helps my play. I use your archer rush build orders and this video helps me understand how you look at strategies, very helpful!

[@200mccsa]

Increased walling isn't just to do with map generation, there's also been a culture shift. Back in the day it was seen as somewhat unsporting to wall during ladder games (similar to laming). Viper, for instance, made his name as a guy who would never wall in RMs. I think the feeling (rightly or wrongly) was that games without walls were faster and more exciting, so people who walled in casual games were putting winning over fun. With the scene now being larger and more competitive, that norm has kind of gone out the window, so now everyone tries to wall in every game.

[@diegorojas8663]

Scout cavalry: I was your friend, Why are you doing this to me? *Dies*

[@emilythedragon]

Really interesting breakdown, please do more of these! Makes me also realize that I'm really bad at walling since my opponent's scouts usually get in...

[@decapod3736]

I thought this video was really interesting and insightful, but I feel it really only applies to the top~1000 metagame. Just a few hours before this video, Spirit posted a video highlighting that Franks are still the top1 best performing civ in multiplayer. Which, given that Franks are probably the archetypical Scouts into Knights beeline civ, suggests that the strategy is still working just fine for most players. Which makes some sense as a lot of the techniques described that make Scout rush worse are pretty high-level, like quickwalling, Archer micro that can take advantage of low ping, etc. Just thought I'd point this out after seeing many comments be like "Oh no I can never play Scout rush again"...!

[@florianzippel6778]

Hmm. I feel like scout rushs are espically common in certain elo, let's say 1000-1200 and there they are also extremly effective. I love playing Franks, I love Scout rushs but already now when playing 13xx opponents I struggle with it a lot.

[@lanciferous1]

Really appreciate the video! It reminded me of something I've been wondering for awhile now though: What makes Men-at-arms opening better than scout rush? The feudal time is similar, they still can't break through walls, still have melee pathing, and they're slower so even easier to quick wall against. I know I must be missing something because the general consensus is that it's better than opening scouts but I'd love an explanation on that

[@mitchannis2017]

I think part of it is they can get in before scouts. You make militia and upgrade them as they hit the opponent when you hit feudal. Scouts you need to make a stable, and mass 2-3, and make the trip over, all AFTER hitting feudal.

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

Plus, MAA have 6 base attack vs scouts have 5 (in feudal with that auto +2 on top of the base 3). Do MAA have bonus damage vs buildings? I know Goths do, and later arson adds extra building attack, but to generic swordsline units have bonus attack vs buildings?

[@Progeusz]

@@jefffinkbonner9551 Yup, only Militia don't have bonus vs buildings. M@A have +1 and it stays this way up to Champion. So M@A can pressure buildings (mill, lumbercamp, barracks) a lot better than scouts do, until opponents makes ranged units. As Mitch said, the most important part is that you have 3 M@A at opponent's base the moment you hit feudal. Scout play would theoretically hit feudal faster but you would only be making your first scout at the time M@A are already putting in work.

[@PianoDome]

Also, since M@A come in so much faster, you will actually see what your opponent is doing. If he is going for double range, you can just go straight into skirms. If he goes into scouts, just add some spearman. If you have already invested a lot into scouts and your opponent already has his ranges and some archers, you will need much more time to react/transition properly.

[@danielbentley7117]

They can arrive far quicker than scouts since you can build a forward barracks and train militia while still in dark age. Then hit Man-At-Arms upgrade as soon as you hit Feudal when the militia are already at enemy base. Whereas scouts can't be made til you hit feudal and then make a stable, then you will need some time to produce a decent number of them

[@KattoVideo]

I rised my ELO wity only scout rush, now Im 2000 of the world (is not that much if I compared to pros, I know), but I confirm ur theory cuz I was not able to climb in ELO with scout rush anymore and have to switch to Knights or archers openings. And also now Britons has one of the most Win rates also (archers oriented civ). Nice game Hera.

[@nemes1s_aoe]

Great points, seems really comprehensive and exhaustive analysis!

[@ChocolateMilkCultLeader]

Never thought I'd see the day where Hera moves from Scouts. Thanks 2020

[@hellothere127]

Very cool video idea, hope to see more of that Also yes, with scout opening its hard to get any vills, but it still can give you a favorable fight, for example late feudal with bloodlines, if you catch enemy archers in the field you just clean And knights with mangos do very well against crossbow with mangos imo ^this applies to low to mid level, dont know about high

[@unimportantcommenter4356]

Problem is, spears still exist. And mixing spears with archers becomes very effective. Bloodlines won't save this situation either.

[@hxhky]

Really like your technical videos. Please keep them coming!

[@michaelcross7665]

The ping being smoothed out was an even bigger crossbow buff than you evenmentioned, because it made the mangonel obsolete at high level play to kill them. Pros micro too well 90% of the time the mangonel wont trade effectively

[@Ayakinim]

These vids are cool. I think it's really helpful for you to compare current meta's to old ones because a lot of casual players and new players have trouble with keep tracking of the evolution of the meta's

[@Hanslineman]

I like the video and I like the discussion on meta insights from a top player. If I’d ask you to add anything, I’d like some speculation at the end on how they could improve scouts to make them more viable. More hp? faster speed? More attack or pierce defense so they could dive better? Cheaper cost? If you have time, there is an idea I’ve been ruminating. How good would it be to use scouts as a replacement for outposts in the late game? They cost food instead of wood, and you wouldn’t need to idle a vil to run around and build outposts. Just every minute or so pumping out a scout and sending him to stand ground in various places around the map so you have line of sight. Do you think that could be viable? Especially if you sent the scouts to idle around wood lines and gold/stone depots so you spot any expansion by your opponent.

[@SurvivalistAoE]

Awesome video. Would definitely like to see more of this style. What are your thoughts on scorpions vs xbow in DE? I've found they are much more useful nowadays since mangonels just get outmicroed easily due to low lag.

[@adspaete]

Thought it was a great video, would love to hear about your thoughts on how and if there should be changes to the meta. Especially from the pro perspective.

[@TheLastRCdV]

Hey, very good video (as a future teacher it's actually really good). Old time player here (before build orders) back after a long time. I saw a lot of people going scouts, but didn't feel natural for me. Tried your archer builds once and it just clicked. That said, i think scouts could still be viable (to the 96% of players under 1650elo) for some civs with bonuses, ie Magyars, Franks, Huns, Cumans (maybe even turks for free light cav). But double edged sword again : everyone will automatically expect those strats for those civs and prepare (counter units, wall earlier...) Keep up the good work (bisous de Seine Saint Denis. Palestine Libre)

[@jammerlammer546]

In the case of spearmen, it's not hard to transition into one range skirmishers after doing scouts, and considering that archers is a ridiculously common choice, it's completely valid and doesn't delay your castle age time if you're able to deal damage to your opponent's eco after making use of them.

[@michaelh4831]

Love this video Hera. I would love to see more analysis and explanation in this vein.

[@MrBluten]

Amazing analysis. Thank you for taking time to explain thoroughly. Keep it up!

[@Ashadowtotheworld]

Really liked this vid. Also your presentation skills are greatly improving. Keep it up. :)

[@DrinkElectrolytes]

Loved this style of video. The game keeps it highly engaging while I am getting great info. Great work!

[@Ser_Knoeterich]

Lovin it ❤️ some points are very well known (like pathing and walling). Tho I like to got the view of a pro and some points I rly didn't think of (like LoS and ping). Would love to see more vids like that. Cheers man!

[@user-fu7zx6ni4l]

One more difference you missed is that the boar lure requires only 1 shot on DE and vill+TC micro is way easier with lower lag, and boars now spawn closer to TC resulting with villagers getting hit at most once. That results in no weak vills to snipe. Also the new shift clicking feature makes it less likely to find any lonely idle vills that just completed building/walling something.

[@AnitaSV]

Imagine a balance change where you could walk through unfinished buildings, no more quick walling.

[@HarrisNMeo]

This is the best video on Hera's channel!

[@bwl2bwl260]

I appreciate your perspective on the game. I greatly enjoyed the video.

[@HenryElfin]

Fully agree with that. I'm just a intermediate player, but still even when I open with scout, I simply cannot find a good spot that can cause damage or even distraction. Some newer players have trouble walling in time, but even then I find myself spend more time to waypoint scouts in the opponents' base to distract them, stealing one or two vill at most, than actually "snowball" any advantage

[@isaacjacob3590]

Yeah, people say scout rush is good against lower players. Even though it's true, archer rush is EVEN BETTER against such players as well.

[@tkzsfen]

Excellent commentary. All of the things, which you talked about were invisible for me. As if you see the game through a different pair of glasses. So, if pathing is improved, do you think that scout rushes would be used more often again or it is not enough, still?

[@cricrielectro]

Interesting points. But I think in lower ELO games there is a lot of room for scouts. Franks is still the best civ (check Spirit's last video) and they rely on scouts and knights. Maybe top tier players meta is less scout oriented these days but normal players tend to not wall completely, misplace their spears, not be good enough to quick wall leaving opportunities for scouts. Some players also overreact to scouts with too many spears, giving you a faster castle time.

[@ji6629]

Wow, this gave a lot of insight! So do you think this shift in meta is a problem? Is it making the metagame to onedimensional? And if so, what do you think should change to improve it? Would better pathing just be enough? Or do we need something else, like even higher costs for walls?

[@karnazacss]

Hey twitch subscriber here! I love this kind of videos, but I would like in future videos you can do something similar in low, mid and high elo aswell. I think this kind of videos are even useful to the dev team, assuming they see it.

[@easternhills1329]

One point that might still be in favor of scout rush might be map control. If I see the whole map, I'm in a better position to make decisions. But ofc, as you said, at the topmost level the players are so good that you guys might not need to see everything to know most of the stuff. Hopefully the pathing will be fixed soon!

[@petersmythe6462]

It works pretty effectively at the ELO where people will still town bell and won't effectively block your scouts off if they go through walls. You don't kill much, if anything, but kiting them around threateningly does vastly more damage than you could hope to achieve by killing villagers. If they've got 20 idles for a minute, that's about 400 resources they don't get. If it's for 2 minutes, that's 800 resources, not to mention they can't build anything unless they're gonna babysit the villagers with enough spears to stop your entire army.

[@peterretep6251]

Nice video. I allways go for scouts because I love cumans and their kipchaks. What would you advise me to build as a support? I allways went for husars, to kill skirms, but is there a better answer?

[@parthn-musicforwork4789]

"Archers are Siege Onagers!" - Membstradamus, Archers-line too OP, NERF PLZ

[@fremoq]

I'm 1,1k elo so... yea I suck... I agree with all you on all points. As you stated and as I feel as a spectator is that the Maps and the pathing are the two biggest offenders to why we don't see scouts. I also feel that going archers is better because you can invest into an army that you can upgrade the whole game and are relevant. Compare that to scouts which is a fodder unit in the late game not a core part of your army.

[@alejandrogonzalezcastillo2008]

Awesome video and very analytical! I'm a big fan of viper and T90 for years, and I Think you fill an important gap

[@2000Dietrich]

I really like this style of video where you talk about the game and strategy

[@martingunther2576]

Great video, thanks! Shouldn't by that logic (walling, pathing, ping) infantry openings also be worse now? Or why would MaA still be good? Drush FC has other upsides I reckon (earlier, small investment). Thanks

[@hendriksan6809]

I wish I could have done a presentation like this in school 11

[@riccardopilotti4720]

Hi Hera, thanks for the video. Do you think feudal scouts can still have a profit in a team game? Thanks

[@stormrunner4081]

Recent game I had my opponent try’s scout rushing me as cumins but my plan was t rush with archer support as Koreans his 5 scouts couldn’t win vs 6 archers and 2 spears (since I ran short on gold) with my first tower comeing online 1/2 way through the fight Overall I think scouts are to expensive to truly rush with without taking a chunk out of your econ and archers are better slower yes but ranged attacks and the ability to stake out wood/gold/stone make them harder to counter

[@asdf123311]

The melee unit pathing issue is so frustrating. I had about 12-15 knights and couldn’t get them to attack a palaside gate. Only two or three would do it, the others just stood still, had to click attack at least 5,6 times.

[@nathanvanbeek5308]

Nice video! This shows that pathing is not the only reason for archer dominance

[@Magz215]

This might be the case for pro play however I’m not a pro and I don’t come up against other pros so scout rushes work for me when I try them. Scouts into knights is something I have been doing for awhile now and the power spike I get when knights enter the fight is amazing.

[@SchlimmShadySmash]

Franks Scout rush still works brilliantly in low elo, so this really applies to above 1000 elo, in my opinion. Love this style of video though, ready for more. Also this finally pushed me to learn a new build order other than Scouts hahaha.

[@bilbaogimenezmarkel]

I loved your detailed explanations. Subscribed.

[@thegoldengunman]

LOVED this video. Could you make it a regular series and maye ask other people in the scene to join in too like T90 / Nili / etc? This is kind of like the analysis that you see after a soccer match by ex-pros and I really dig it. There were two things missing IMO: 1. What do you think about it? Is this change to the meta a good or a bad thing for you personally? 2. If you don't like it, what do you think should be done about it? E.g. Scouts cheaper / faster / more attack / etc. Would love to know your thoughts.

[@jameskonjarski3192]

Great video concept, good discussion direction as well!

[@isaacjacob3590]

Sad to see how game issues are affecting the meta this heavily.

[@paulchilds8177]

This is a really helpful video. Would love to see more!

[@jhdrawings1321]

@Hera, what is your oppinion now that the melee pathing is fixed?

[@aryafeydakin]

Have the dev thought about introducing a "snare effect" like that of aoe3 ? In aoe3 the melee units have a snare effect, that's a movement speed reduction when they engage another unit or group of unit. There is a whole art of micro-management revolving around the snare effect. Once a ranged (or any unit) is touched or approached sufficiently close by a melee unit, it can't hit and run anymore and have to commit to the melee. In case of a larger group of units, when a critical mass is achieved the whole group of unit being attacked can be basically pined down by the combining snaring effect of each attacking melee unit, then usually hacked to pieces, unless you for example sacrifice units to the snare and flee with the rest. Furthermore, the ranged units can't use their ranged attack to hit and run anymore when they are directly touching another melee unit, they have to switch to their weak melee attack mode.

[@AlmdudlerKing13]

I'd still love to see a lithuanian scout into knight build,i have been working on it for days now, 21 for scouts ,then 27/28 into castle

[@Stan_S_Stanman]

would be nice to have a video about different variants of M@A rush, and the advantages and disadvantages of each

[@weikor6545]

i think you should also talk about how you could improve scouts. Aside from the obvious "Fix pathing", would you give them more base HP?, bonus vs palisades?

[@diegeigergarnele7975]

Imo making training of scouts faster together with fixed pathing might make them more viable

[@SC-mo6fs]

They don't need a boost. Keep in mind that what he says is only true at the highest elo (i'm 1450 and can still get away with going scouts most of the time). The reason they are bad today is because the meta is pretty much geared towards defending scouts (the only reason people wall this early is because it helps a lot with defending against scouts/archers builds) ; and because arabia as become a semi-open map when it used to be a fully open map (scouts are still pretty effective on very open map, like land madness as he pointed out, but kilimanjaro or acropolis also would qualify imo). It is not scouts being bad so much as people being very good at countering them

[@terrab1ter4]

perhaps if the devs make it so that villagers get an attack bonus vs palisade walls; you could then invest one vill to break holes into their walls quickly and flood some scouts

[@mckenziecalhoun316]

what about scouts into archers to go xbow? just a couple of scouts to force out pikes and following it up with archers. Or is it better at that point to Drush into archers, to delay walls and force quickwalls and exploit them with the archers?

[@dhruvonium]

I think out of all the reasons you mentioned, pathing issues seem to be the most annoying. Ive experienced that with scouts and even knights on DE. Im wondering if they cant get it right, they may have to nerf palisade walls to scouts/ cav further. Finnaly, even low elo will move to what pro players are doing today and losing scout rush will mean losing an important dimension of the game.

[@l.p.7585]

Hey do you think scouts have become more viable again with the recent DE map generation changes? ie, further berries, more open treelines