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[@user-gamingziidheudk]

Japanese smash community really helps each other. Whereas my US friend told me that his local tops don’t even talk to you if you don’t match their level…

[@Phoenix-dp9up]

Good players have too much ego

[@__BlacklotuS__]

true

[@yafilmme6160]

nbs it’s so toxic

[@Matt-hy9qj]

This is so true PR players would dodge my locals because we were all considered “bad” even when we weren’t. We just didn’t travel outside of our city so nobody knew us. I remember upsetting 1 really good player and going game 3 with a top 5 player in the state and they never showed up again 🤣🤣

[@user-gamingziidheudk]

@@Matt-hy9qj that's so funny, his ego means so much to himself

[@justinperez4693]

NA when the opponent is clearly outplaying them: "wow this matchup is unwinnable"

[@__BlacklotuS__]

i always get "you must smell bad" when i win lol

[@uroy8371]

Yep, min while Japan, I'm a solo Banjo, Yoshi main. I'm gonna destroy everyone one day.

[@TriopsTrilobite]

People also have a misunderstanding of what a “losing matchup” is. If a matchup is 60-40, even 70-30, that still means the worse character will win *some* of the time. This also assumes that both players have equal skill and experience in the matchup, which is rarely, if ever, the case

[@dragnjames2190]

NA when they're winning against anyone for even a fraction of a second: "I'm godlike!"

[@shaneg8029]

Mostly esam but yeah, much more common among the competitive scene here😂 ​@@dragnjames2190

[@TheKoopaBros]

I feel like the Japanese Smash community has a much healthier mindset when it comes to grinding and improving. I feel that they're much less toxic, and even when they complain about Characters like MinMin they don't give up, they formulate new strategies, and many of their best players use uncommon characters in NA, but because of their passion for the game and their character, they make less optimal characters competitive. I also feel like because of Smash Mate and a more public transit, smaller connected Country, and lower toxicity, low and mid-level players have a greater chance to actually improve without feeling discouraged and wanting to quit. I feel like here, if you're not a high/top player, you're given few opportunities to improve in locals (as you get less matches in bracket), and some higher skilled players often won't play friendlies unless you're a high ranking player as well. NA really needs to make more of an attempt to lifting all players up, so the low level players can improve to mid ones, mid ones can get to a high level, and high level players can compete as top players.

[@harpot678]

Am I wild to say public transportation infrastructure diff is like 70% of the reason.

[@stak_5786]

This is so true. NA continue to complain about the game while Japan players see the flaws and press on.

[@anikai4584]

Same issue in Europe imo(at least in Germany in my experience).

[@sauce5097]

Japanese players complained so bad about MinMin that she got nerfed the week after. The hate over there was insane.

[@harpot678]

@@sauce5097 I legitimately think no Smasher will have as much concentrated hate as Protobanham had at that time when he dominated everything with Min Min before she got nerfed. Shit was insane

[@Spyder-Marth]

I complained about this for ages and I finally quit competitive play as a result. Literally EVERYTHING you said, was written off by the egotistical jerks on Twitter and in my region. I'm SO HAPPY YOU ARE SAYING THIS because you are a top player and people will obviously listen to you. That sai, my BIGGEST issue with NA is how top players feel like they "shouldn't" play against me just because I am "not as good" as them. Like, bro y'all are intentionally gatekeeping skill and handing out horrible tips like "oh just drop your mains you need to stick to [insert generic top 10 character]." Like come on. Tell me if I have a bad jumping habit instead of digging at Marth for 5 minutes.

[@Matt-hy9qj]

Top NA players dodge locals like the plague.

[@cullenhutchison6528]

Jahzz0 doesn't dodge locals--and when he enters, he often doesn't win. And yet he had one of the best runs at Kagaribi.

[@kessler4987]

Bc NA smash twitter/Twitch chat/ KZbin is much more toxic. If you’re a top player and you lose to a local unknown player, more people will shame you than praise the local player.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@cullenhutchison6528 Jazzho also seemed so chill about his loss when he started commentating later in the tournament. He congratulated Kaninabe on beating him and then moved on, he didn't feel the need to talk about his run at length. It was cool to see honestly.

[@Spyder-Marth]

Jahzz0 is like... the best example of a skilled player who doesn't avoid locals like so many other NA top players I know...

[@Matt-hy9qj]

@@Spyder-Marth I said TOP players

[@ItBeHowItBe47]

Top players complaining about the game makes more people complain about the game so less people watch and the top players can’t get sponsored. Everything starts at the top

[@benross9174]

Dabuz is so right about people overvaluing MUs and character strenghts. Downplayers are saying Roy and Palu cant do it anymore while shit like Toon Link Banjo and Corrin is winning bigly. In early Ult people gave Maister shit for playing a «bad character» but Maister stuck to his soul character. MUs and character strenght matter, but player vs player matters infiniately more.

[@OseiTheWarriors]

Agreed. Let's be real EVERY character is viable. I really mean that. Maipan and NaNo placed well with Zelda, a DDD and DK got 65th at Kagaribi 12 and so on The downplaying and whining isn't helping lol

[@silverpotato4272]

I mean Corrin is legitimately a really good character but yeah, people can do it with anyone

[@yunkydunker]

Totally agree we just saw DK and toon link take out Spargo

[@xjgal7702]

@@OseiTheWarriors Let’s not get crazy here, Ganon still unviable 😂😂

[@swordre5805]

​@@xjgal7702 there is one ganon out at 97 at kagaribi. Higachan is one of the most dominant Ganondrof player in the past. He won over acola forcing him to switch from steve to luigii and then to kazuya😂 His result fall off a lot when people figure him out and he failed to adapt or maybe the character is just bad.

[@sharkronical]

I think the most telling thing is that NA fans after the 2 tournaments have the reactions of “Ban Steve” and “NA fans lost to cheesers”

[@eitak12334]

naa that got nothin to do with it lmao steve is a travesty and should be banned. japan got it tho they grinded for that number 1 spot. other than sonix and spargo (cloud just sucks as solo main in brackets), NA just doesn't have the same drive now that we're not the strongest region. we got a LOT grinding and losing to do before we can hope to win again. we won't be taking the crown back for strongest region til smash 6 the earliest lol.

[@silverpotato4272]

@@eitak12334 cloud does not suck as a solo main that character is borderline top 10

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@eitak12334 I think Cloud is a pretty good solo main. One of his worst matchups according to Sparg0 himself is Sheik. He recently 3-0 Webb. Another is Aegis. He has a pretty good record against all the Aegis. To me this shows that every matchup is doable for Cloud which is more than can be said about a lot of characters. Yes, he's a very gimpable character and he requires a lot of discipline because of it, but whenever Sparg0 stays calm and doesn't get tilted, he's practically invincible so it's clearly doable.

[@gabrielabrera9966]

@@eitak12334 the Steve ban isn’t the larger issue he’s talking about. It’s more so the fact that NA fans and players put more energy into complaining and airing their grievances than trying to better themselves. I guess since Steve has been brought up, he’s kind of a good example of this. When that weird hitstun bug/glitch was discovered everyone was so quick to ban the character but within like two weeks it was discovered that the glitch wasn’t even that viable. It also didn’t help that one of the pillars of the NA smash community was fanning the flames on Steve hate to get some free internet brownie points. That indirectly discouraged anyone from actually labbing counterplay against the tech and instead rallied for more character hate and calls for a character ban. Granted that guy has double backed on his decision but I think you get the point. TL;DR: the NA scene just gets too heated too quickly, and if we want to get better we have to change that

[@eitak12334]

@@silverpotato4272 "borderline top 10" is a funny way to say "top 15 on a good day" but sure

[@SuperAndrew64]

The west literally tries to monetize everything in this game. Lessons, sub battles, etc. Egos play a huge role as well. I feel like there are little to no cliques in Japan. Everyone wants everyone to get better and it shows.

[@dragnjames2190]

For reals. It's insane when you actually stop and think about just how much the West wants to monetize Smash.

[@noahmalik]

@@dragnjames2190it’s healthy for the community. the more money, the more people, the more tournaments, the more hype, the more opportunity. it’s a balancing act, of course. more recently people have been priced out due to the game’s age and multiple controversies

[@dragnjames2190]

@@noahmalik And I'm glad that people are able to make money doing something that they like and help grow the Smash scene. I can't help but think that it's also just not sustainable in the long run. We've seen plenty of orgs go under because Smash just isn't profitable enough. It's honestly kinda hysterical to read about top Melee players leaving their professions to exclusively make content for Smash Bros. I can't remember many if any, Ultimate players doing that. I feel like monetary gain shouldn't be the main vehicle for motivation in Smash. The West pushes wayyy too hard for monetizing every little bit of the game that it's sickening. What the OP said is true too. Cliques kind of ruin NA Smash because everyone is only looking to cover their own ass and won't give up-and-coming players the time of day unless they're good at the game. I saw this petty shit even back in the Brawl days. Atleast in Japan, with no real prize pools or money being the driving force behind entries, people actually help each other improve out genuine desire to improve. They won't paywall you just to speak with them for an hour.

[@ponpokopiii]

5:28 Speaking of SmashMate and their scores, Miya said in his post grand finals interview at Kagaribi 12 that he went to around 2600 points and was able to win Kagaribi, encouraging aspiring players that if they aim for a similar elo on SmashMate, success would be within their grasp.

[@fupalover]

Japan has passion for Smash. They play cause they genuinely love it. NA only plays cause its a job. They don't have passion

[@benross9174]

Nah its more grinding is easier for them with Smashmate, public transport and a smaller country in general. I dont think Ken is spindash camping Glutto purely for the «love of the game»

[@chaz7282]

@@benross9174 I think he is he. wouldn’t spend money to travel the world to do so if he didn’t.

[@abduleshabbar9223]

@@chaz7282unless there was somehow a chance he might make money…. I wonder if that would somehow be possible? Do you think the tournament’s he travels too have a cash prize?

[@kevin.peixoto]

@@benross9174 Isn't this mentality exactly the problem Dabuz is talking about in this video? In NA we're so hyperfocused on hating "lame playstyles" and wanting the top players to do what we want them to do. Whereas in Japan, they seem to be hyped as FUCK to see Steve/G&W grand finals. I just feel like there's gotta be something there

[@benross9174]

@@kevin.peixotoI meant to illustrate that players in japan wants to WIN and they are not just playing for fun. Maybe its on me for misunderstanding what «love of the game» means, but that was the point I was making

[@silkytv]

Doesn't help that NA players are so quick to ban something before figuring it out.

[@Brion15]

NA has fallen behind due to bad intakes from top players. Very troubling

[@sachitechless]

That's god damn "Japan and Their Thanks for Playing the Game" tweet from Leo that keeps being posted every tournament feels like vibe when it comes to improvement. No one wants to actually practice against their problem characters, they just wanna play against the 500th Roy player

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Kind of funny that he was talking about Miya among others, despite being an expert at the G&W matchup. But yeah it's frustrating. Leo doesn't seem to know how to play disadvantage against Pikachu, Mario, Kazuya and Steve most notably, and he's refusing to learn it so he keeps losing to these guys.

[@benross9174]

The thing is he’s not even only losing to stuff like Steve and Kazuya, or even Pac-man. He also loses to stuff like Snows Mario and Banjo. The meta RN is kinda toxic, but its not the only issue. And that mindset can hold you back I feel

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@benross9174 Leo has never lost to Pacman I'm pretty sure.

[@benross9174]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 that might be true, genuinly dont know

[@justice8718]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 He literally practices against Luigi and Mario every day with Law.

[@shun8104]

Some NA top players have a major mentality problem. Every time they lose to a JP player they got dozens of excuse up their sleeve, but when they win it's a fair and square valid win. F off. Also matchup check shouldn't be an excuse. That just means you've partially learned the game and spend more time on meta matchups than players who bother learning obscure matchups (funny they'll never mention that either)

[@LoadedKlip]

Great point Getting match up check means you don't know the game as much as you thought. Thus it's a skill issue period. Japan can't be match up checked as much as NA because overall they understand the game better than NA. Thus they are better.

[@justice8718]

@@LoadedKlip If it was melee, there would hardly be a match up check issue simply because the roster is small and reasonable.

[@LoadedKlip]

@justice8718 which means there less to learn. In fact even less than the roster itself since half the cast is completely unviable so no need to learn the Bowser or Mewtwo match ups for example. They absolutely stink unlike Little Mac or Ganon in Ultimate who has some actual tools at least. Big roster ... small roster ... That's not an objectively good thing or a bad thing. Just different. I rather see more different match ups than Fox vs Marth for the million time.

[@justice8718]

@@LoadedKlip The matches in Ultimate are objectively more similar than Fox dittos in Melee.

[@LoadedKlip]

@@justice8718 I can't tell if u being serious

[@justarandompurplefox3243]

I noticed both Sparg0 and MKLeo looked pretty checked out during their matches. There was noticeably more passion when the game was newer

[@lezzei]

tbf that's a problem leo has had for a while now. i think sparg0 has a much bigger drive than him to be #1 right now

[@kaiyedy828]

Ultimate has an inherent problem of characters feeling samey and the skill ceiling being lower than pretty much any other smash game. It makes sense- the game attempted to be balanced so that you can have 80+ characters and NOT have too much “overly egregious bs,” which means you can’t have too much freedom in what characters can do. But after a while, it just gets annoying and boring as hell, and I feel like you can tell that’s what players like Leo are feeling.

[@randomnobody660]

@@kaiyedy828 the skill ceiling argument is just strange to me. Like is anybody's movement or reaction perfect? Does anybody 2 frame perfectly? Does anybody parry and punish everything theoretically possible? Does anybody executed every optimal move perfectly even within a specific game? IMO the answer to every one of those is clearly no. So given that, how is some theoretical lower skill ceiling in any way relevant to actual play where nobody is even close to perfect?

[@kitsune6363]

​@@randomnobody660The removal of what little remaining techniques there were from the previous game (like perfect pivots and character specific techniques), they even removed cross ups and just made everyone very fast and have lagless aerials and jump squats while making shields and grabs bad instead of properly balancing the game. They wanted to make it melee but for casuals which would never work out for competitive play.

[@randomnobody660]

@@kitsune6363 I can see why having techniques is fun, but again, why is techniques important in the context of skill ceilings when people haven't even mastered the basics yet? (Also there's a ton of tech in ult. I'm not even sure your premise is correct)

[@aero6104]

NA just whines too much, Steve banned tournaments should've been a clear sign that the culture was based around whining on Twitter

[@LoadedKlip]

One thing to discuss ... are events hurt by restreamers? I have seen HungryBox, Larr Lurr, EE have more views than the official stream. Wouldn't that hurt the main events ability to make money?

[@timnoskill]

i believe that generallly restreamers get permission from the event organizers, but i could be wrong

[@ElAbsent]

Unfortunately in NA tournaments are a business and in Japan they play for Honor ❤ Good video Dabuzz senpai 🎉

[@Maithatguy]

It’s because of all that red 40, yellow lake 5, and Blue 1, it’s our synthetic dyes in our food and drinks for sure

[@aidanxavier2048]

I think another issue is the amount of praise we give top players, and also undermine them at the same time. A great example is Leo. But to me the biggest issue that we don’t see in Japan is the idolization. Zackray said Sheik was top 3 and people believed it for a week, I can’t even remember who said GnW is top 5 or 3 but now that’s widely believed. People can’t think for themselves here and put what top players say to such a high degree that they’re not learning anything. In Japan, being a top player means you’re the player to beat. When MkLeo was dominant, the only thing Japan cared about more than beating Leo was Evo. They constantly push themselves and don’t see top players as someone to just listen to, but someone to achieve

[@dragnjames2190]

"Pika busted" for 5 years in NA despite results saying otherwise is another example of top player speak being taken as gospel. Besides the occasional Leo rat upset because he's legitimately horrible vs the rats ( And Mario ). Pikachu never did shit because Esam couldn't push the character where he needed to. Top players releasing tier lists every few weeks for content farming. It's an echo chamber through and through of the same boring takes.

[@yunkydunker]

American players value content over results. Results are just a means to promote the content. I may be wrong but this is my input

[@dragnjames2190]

Hit the nail on the head right there. And honestly, if you are able to grind the game for 2 years, get decent results and then immediately pivot into content creation, who wouldn't in this day and age? You'd already have a solid fanbase from Smash alone and can gradually build up overtime before finally moving away from Smash.

[@londonl.5892]

These were all extremely solid reasons and well-explained. Thank you!

[@oshie77]

Yeah the best way to sum it up is just "Japan actually loves the game"

[@fullsend4976]

I feel like Japan has a stronger work ethic, they challenge each other to get better, and they have more passion for the game. They also don’t care much about matchups spreads.

[@bolovx2339]

People downplaying their own main, like chase whining about palu being bad, is so annoying. Why aren’t you confident in your own character? Why even play them then?

[@benross9174]

Not a single Palu main in the universe actually cares about their character except them being top tier. Have you ever met a Palu main that has actually played Uprising?

[@bolovx2339]

@@benross9174 even if they’re just top tier shill, they probably still picked the one they enjoy the most right?

[@benross9174]

@@bolovx2339 yeah ofc, Im just saying if you are not attached to your main at all its easier to shit on them even if they are really good. Nothing wrong about picking top tiers cause they are top tiers ofc. People just dont want to self reflect and realize the problem is (usually) themself

[@ShallBePurified]

​@@benross9174I was one of those. Loved Uprising, was hype to see Palutena get announced for Smash, and mained her in Smash 4 and Ultimate. But I'm just a nobody who doesn't go to tournaments lol.

[@benross9174]

@@ShallBePurified Yeah they exist ofc, but they are incredibly rare. You and Dabuz are the only ones I think of. The reason Palu has that repetition is that she was like top 5 on release and super easy to play as well

[@sebastiansullivan4770]

Seems like Japanese players are more focused on perfecting techniques much of the time. NA players often have amazing technique but not perfect and then they try to make up for what they lack technically with instinct and readong habits. Spargo seems to me a good example of a player with great technique but maybe even better skills to adapt to a specific opponents habits in a set.

[@ZolPsyko]

My friends and I were very passionate in the Midwest scene, but we had trouble finding efficient ways to improve. We constantly asked "How does anyone EFFICIENTLY get good at this game?" and gave up when we couldnt find an answer. Going to locals was also very time consuming, and we decided to put our energy towards better things.

[@SamiJ1508]

There was a post on Reddit and I could agree with this that said that na players are really guarded about their new tech and doing Friendlies with certain people to prevent people from getting matchup experience. In Japan they're always playing everybody they can to get experience and they share their Tech to make everyone in the community better which then in turn allows everybody in the community to fight against more difficult opponents and so on

[@dragnjames2190]

About the tech guarding and friendlies point, there's a reason all the NA Steves made a pact to dripfeed us Steve tech back in 2022 lmao.

[@michaelwebster5967]

Everyone knows the online is bad in NA, but given the chance to air my grievances, I feel like I need to figure out how laggy each match is before I can go in or try to punish. The game is so inconsistent online.

[@benross9174]

Grinding Online is better than not grinding at all I feel. Sparg0 was a huge WiFi warrior before he became big for instance. Online while being bad is the only real way to get MU experience on characters that arent on ur local, and higher GSP almost always gives a decent approximation of their skill level

[@silvesta5027]

It's worth remembering that literally all 4 of the best players in the world were / are massive online grinders. Spargo, Sonix, Miya and Acola

[@justice8718]

@@silvesta5027 Playing online characters.

[@silvesta5027]

@@justice8718 Yeah that’s a good point. Some characters are boarderline unusable online. Peach, Fox and Zss come to mind for me

[@joseval98]

I really hope NA adapts the "stick to your character" mindset that Japan has, over there you see Dr marios, Bowser, minmin, Mega-man, Banjo, DK, etc. Characters that youll never see on this side because "they are not viable". Every tournament here is filled with Sonic, Aegis, Joker, Terry or Steve if its nos banned like cmon give me something else

[@gerbz7695]

been hitting the locals to get more offline exp. like 6th tourney in and got a 9th. People are always so friendly and down to talk about MU's and habits they see from you

[@syrupshrike9742]

I have to drive 45 minutes to get to one of the two closest locals to me that a couple of PR players attend, or half an hour for a local with no PR players. Everything is over an hour away and unfeasible with my schedule. It's absolutely no wonder that I'm probably worse than any japanese low/mid level player who gets to take public transport (doesn't have to pay for gas) 15 minutes and maybe some walking to got to a free tournament with some of the best players in the region. Also I know people mention the online practice with smashmate, but I think the most important part is just distance again. I used to love doing coinbox when I wasn't getting matched against people in mexico, the west coast, or canada, but the frequency of nearby matches is nowhere near good enough. This was an issue for me on matchbox too. All anybody can do is focus on growing our own scenes (or getting better public transit but that's a different issue), and supporting other players get better so they can help us in turn.

[@user-eu6fx3uy3l]

Get a job

[@ktrZetto]

As someone from Japan the distance discourse is a bit overblown. Public infrastructure allows for more people to travel but it can still be well over an hour to get to a local even if you live in Tokyo. People just aren't egregiously far so they can make the longer trips to get to majors more often, though. For example, Hurt is from the south western tip of Japan in Kagoshima. He is very farm from any locals.

[@syrupshrike9742]

​@@ktrZetto You know what that's totally fair. I can't really claim to know exactly how Japanese locals and players are distributed so I probably ended up exaggerating quite a bit, but I'll still stand by 2 things. 1) Higher top player concentration (all that talent contained to an area about the size of the US east coast). 2) An hour on a train, even one crowded to hell, is better than big city highway traffic ANY day. At least trains don't slow down to half speed even if they're at capacity. Bad traffic can up to double the time it takes to get to a local. Although that does bring up a different question. What times do locals usually happen in japan? In my area they usually start from somewhere from 6-7pm, meaning you'll probably be driving to them in rush hour traffic but I'm curious if that's significantly different elsewhere.

[@Master_Byron]

your straiiiiiiiiighttttt spittttttttting with this video bro ur preaching to the choir

[@abc.garage]

I think NA cares about ranking more than Japan and that might put extra pressure on them to perform at majors

[@Metabolica1]

As a sweaty about the game that has tenuous goals of playing competively, its been extremely hard for me to find a regular source of decent, productive competitions. A lot of the subredits and discourds are very difficult to navigate for new people, and thats pretty much all there is putside of your local scene.

[@justalex3880]

Maybe if top players didn’t constantly hate on the game and complain about Steve, they wouldn’t be getting jammed. TLDR shut up and play LOL

[@benross9174]

Imagine if every player grinded as much as Sonix

[@bruhgocrzy5461]

100% agree, steve is broken but I hate when people complain about it 20 times after one game or just watching, like just get over it

[@michaelmanchildxd2397]

I think it all started when the scandal allegations came out a few years ago

[@sham_noway]

i think this is part of why EU is likely to overtake NA in the coming years, lots of passion in the scene and our grinding site Smashdojo is still going very strong

[@julianb.f4007]

I feel like jet lag is a huge factor for placements overseas as well. I think it was cirque that miya went to and under performed in NA.

[@Gaudimann]

I noticed that with Umeki about viewerships: As he started, he had just around 100 views, now he has an average viewer count around the thousands! (Me as watcher included of course!) The problem for me is: Language barrier I bet he says sooo much helpful stuff but can´t understand him because I can´t understand Japanese :c

[@dmz7696]

You should’ve went there. You played so good the last time you were there.

[@ulisesmendoza7339]

Imo maybe bring back all is brawl. I loved that site, you earned badges for different stuff it was so awesome. Even seasonal or event badges

[@aqua_serene]

What if I enjoy playing 3 characters? I know it would be better to play 1 or maybe 2, but I would have less fun. Should I try and force myself to drop or just play the way I like?

[@Sh1v3rIZAE]

You should probably drop the game competitively and just play the game casually, there's no real gain to playing this game competitively.

[@aqua_serene]

@Sh1v3rIZAE I like learning and want to get better. Hopefully, that will lead to winning.

[@MKdence_]

​@@aqua_serenePlay however you like playing. There's nothing wrong with playing multiple chars. Don't force anything at all. Just do what's the most fun to you!

[@benross9174]

As long as your goal is having fun do what is most fun. But according to Dabuz playing more than 2 characters isnt worth it if you want to compete

[@Spyder-Marth]

I mean Zackray played like, the whole roster so yeah go for it!

[@elefanamir9087]

Your Rosa is amazing and Steve is tough to beat but you can do it

[@EcoHass]

I think we need to approach the game with humility, we would enjoy it more.

[@__BlacklotuS__]

we talking about NA here? LMAO i wish

[@WhitePointerGaming]

Been saying forever that Japan is the strongest region and they've consistently proven it, not just by dominating the foreign scene at their own events like Kagaribi but also consistently top 8ing or even winning US majors too. Like even if they only send a handful of players, they always make top 8 and usually end up knocking each other out rather than a local player doing it (the one consistent exception to that was Light). Japan is the place where those weird MUs that you never thought would be relevant suddenly become relevant. NA players for the most part stick to top tiers but in Japan you'll see a lot of character specialists pushing the meta forward.

[@uroy8371]

I personally think Japan has, in his culture, a deep level of consistency. Most Japanese players play by optimizing every aspect of their character. While in NA, México, EU players tend to heavily rely on cheese tactics and abuse safe options. Leo is a rare exception he is very consistent, has an incredible mental state, has high skill, and is creative. But Japan isn't shy to use Steve and Leo in Ultimate isn't picking the top characters like in his prime or even Smash 4 (cloud/bayo). I guess cause Steve is lame.

[@kingdogg94]

Really interesting discussion even though (as with almost everything in Smash) there is a lot of hyperbole and overexaggeration. NA hasn't "fallen off" just because a bunch of people underperformed at some very staked JP tourney (where there were a lot of uncontroversially good players and people who use characters that NA players don't have a lot of experience fighting). All the same, there is a lot to be said for the fact the Japan has a much higher density of good players - NA has a lot of good player spread out across an entire continent with multiple time zones, whereas Japan will have their player base concentrated into a handful of cities. This means that they practice against one another almost daily on online ladder (I'm assuming that most people grind around the same time) and get to attend locals with one another weekly. It's interesting to follow local scenes in Japan because that's where players like Hero, Snow (the Mario who beat MkLeo), and Toriguri all get their start. Hell, I remember back in COVID Acola gained his first big wins at locals. Comparatively, in NA you find the same 3-4 people win their locals every week.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Dabuz's title was clickbait, of course it's hyperbole.

[@AnonymousAnonymous-je8mu]

Still asking for a Dabuz move tier list series

[@JAPANESE_MAPLE]

is the fall off real.i want toon link and yoshi be a top teir too man

[@hrstar24]

Smash Pros needs to make a comeback, there is no reason why it should be less popular than Smash Mate. Get rid of a Bo3/Bo5 option, get rid of a delay mod option, institute a 3 month season, Hbox should get Coinbase to put up a prize pool for top finishers in the ladder for each 3 month season. Top 128, 256, or hell even top 512 get an invite into a special Coinbox bracket at the end of the season. Top 8 in that tourney get a free ride to Genesis or something.

[@Pal42_]

You're not going to get 128 players to come at your event unless you pay for travel + accomodations for all of them, and no one has that kind of money. I agree there should be more incentives to play online ladders, though I fear at that point people would start playing just for the prize without actually trying to improve. But yeah the 3 months season is where I agree, for both Ultimate and Melee ladder there seems to be no standard on when to reset rankings and it pains me

[@hrstar24]

@@Pal42_ I just meant an online tournament for the top 128 players, not in person. People will be more try hard (and even try to cheat more unfortunately) w/ prizes involved, but I just don't see another way to incentivize people to queue up in Smash Pros without it. Another good thing for the prizes would be to exclude the top 50 or top 100 ranked players from the prizes too, so mid level players have even more reason to play. Like Dabuz said, top players stopped playing Smash Pros because the player pool got small and queue times got long, not because of lack of prizes. They need to do something to draw in a bunch of the low/mid/high level players, and the top players will follow.

[@christiankoll1528]

For context, the population of the Usa vs Japan is about 330 million to 125 million. Meanwhile, the land area difference is that the US is 3.8 mil square miles while japan is only 150 thousand square miles... that population density is something we don't touch.

[@ryanramirez1993]

Japan has good wifi because small area = top players play online = more content available and eyes on the game. This just isn't really something NA (especially West coast) can solve. Side note I love watching play ins for top 8 but at top 8 I generally lose steam because as a casual viewer and player I don't want to watch sonic spin dash or Steve mine because interaction is what makes me keep watching.

[@yaboiangel3027]

I feel like somehow our solution could lie on the back smash esports teams from like schools. How exactly ehhhh idk but its just a feeling

[@fupalover]

NA hasn't fallen off. Japan has been the best since 2021. Majority reason is probably cause they handled covid better and started offline up way sooner.

[@dingo9696]

This excuse was valid for a little while but I really dont think its true any more. Covid was 3 years ago man. The reason japan is better is that they dont whine about every character they lose to, they just figure out counterplay and enjoy playing the game. You have people in NA who will take a clip of leo SDIing into a steve 0td that is easily escapable and asking for the character to be banned, instead of just learning the counterplay. If you dont want to learn the counterplay thats fine, bur you cant cry about losing to that character. With that being said, they have an advantage with public transportation infrastructure and smashmate.

[@silverpotato4272]

Don't really think it's covid at this point. They just have much more passion in general and they have much better access to the game. Japanese online is a legitimate and common way to become a top 50 player in the world. NA online will get you a little bit, but you'll quickly have to start traveling and playing at a lot of tournaments to win.

[@fupalover]

@@silverpotato4272 Covid was the start and directly started everything else.

[@__BlacklotuS__]

i play in JP region online and train with a JP aegis i'm fine ,

[@PabloDuckman]

Ngl if smash had good online, I had never stopped competing on this game, I dont really care that much about the broken characters, but being unable to have a good experience of the game from the comfort from my home, it stitches me, I have like 2 hours to play by day and playing elite smash isnt an option, so trying to contact and opponent or going to a friends house to play takes like more than half of my playtime instead of being able to find a quick match through the online system that is enjoyable

[@KrebsTLegend]

That cuphead mug is fire

[@iiCennii]

The wrong mindset? (Not from all, but too many NA players)

[@Atr0]

Really wish people would give Yuzu LDN (not parsec) a chance in the states. Coast to coast connections are extremely tolerable and within region it's nigh indistinguishable from local play. Pretty much every single HDR player uses it and it's not difficult to setup either. Imagine we all used Yuzu AND had a ladder system??

[@StrafinJr]

You need a modded switch, aint nobody doing that

[@Atr0]

@@StrafinJr bro ngl you could just google the files you need, they're easy to find... discords wont tell you that shit cus they dont wanna get sued but imma let you know myself so you can pass the knowledge on just look up "yuzu without switch" or ask a friend about it

[@dragnjames2190]

It's too much work for the average Smash competitor to do.

[@Atr0]

@@dragnjames2190 it really is not bro, if you have the game dump it takes like 10 minutes or less...

[@dragnjames2190]

@@Atr0 I know that. I funny-pirated the game on ryujinx and got my own spare version for hdr. I'm just saying that people in the states are too lazy to setup Yuzu LDN. That's IF they have the means to run it in the first place.

[@vinzdorier]

I think US players should stop wanting to have an all US online app. JP is tiny, they can have great online with everyone they play. Why not have a tristate app for example? yeah it's sad to be exclusive, but at least you ensure a good quality of training that will help grow the scene locally. If the main regions do that, the general level of US players should naturally increase.

[@mariodiaz3905]

na play for money and glory but mostly money whereas japan just love the game they can’t play for money due to it being illegal. think about how embarrassing that is

[@abduleshabbar9223]

I’m so sick of seeing this argument. Why the F do NA players go to Japanese tournaments then? Is it for cash? Oh wait. Japan doesn’t have tournaments for that. Was it for rankings? Oh I’m sorry statistically they stand to gain far less standing wise… hmm what’s that leave?

[@asterlofts1565]

BECAUSE, JAPAN IS GOOD!

[@epyons8411]

NA’s mentality is embarrassing.

[@Spyder-Marth]

Person: "Oh you play Marth?!?! Drop that loser and play Lucina!" Me: "Bro I just need to know if I had bad habits..." Person: "Drop Marth he sucks!" Me: "DO I HAVE BAD HABITS?!?!" Person: "Yeah, and it's playing Marth!" I swear I'm gonna randomly show up to a major one day and farm pools... then again my drive to compete in a toxic scene has died.

[@Gaudimann]

@@Spyder-Marth Fuuuny enough, I got 0-8´d by a Marth-player against my Daisy and Rosalina. Lost mostly because of Tipper-last hits or Shield breaks! (My fault of course, I ain´t denying that) Anyways, they did great and I respect their skill for that, and that fact motivates me to do better against them next time! Greetings from Austria btw!

[@Pyugles]

All of NA is labbing Rivals 2

[@ryutipscows9712]

na just sucks at games. watched MSI this morning

[@nathanlevesque7812]

To all the people who have said that Japanese players have it easy because they don't have to compete against NA players in order to get highly ranked...LUL how did that pan out for ya?

[@justice8718]

You and the people you complain about are no different.

[@nathanlevesque7812]

@@justice8718 nope

[@xanander4693]

NA hasn’t fallen off. Japan is simply just better

[@rebelresource]

Where was sonix?

[@janicehaugen5826]

im a big spargo fan and im sad seeing him lose so early in these tournaments and not being able to see really fun sets like spargo vs miya or shuton or acola or asimo

[@JonathanRodriguez-cl8gq]

Now you’ve gotta beat Acola and Miya’s Steve. I believe you Buzby!

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

None of the NA players who were eager to beat Acola or Miya could even fight them, except for MKbigboss 🥲 That's not the problem 😉

[@JonathanRodriguez-cl8gq]

You don’t have faith Dabuz?

[@Spyder-Marth]

​@@user-nb8ep7oc8d MKBigBoss might legitimately surpass Zomba one day. I know, hot take.

[@ningalu9393]

its fucking smash mate exactly how its spelt pronounced in english ma te isnt even how its spelt in japanese its like hearing nails on a chalkboard dabuz i beg you

[@franknfoot7200]

I had to rewind! This comment should be pinned 😂

[@DabuzSSB]

Lol ok ok

[@calivali2876]

We really just don’t like the game anymore. Japan accepts ultimate for what it is. Broken DLC & everything. They’ve accepted it. We don’t. “All games have their problems” and none of them have glaring in your face issues like ultimate. And we, as Americans, would rather complain and moan about it than accepting it and moving forward. A mindset that even Mexico has started adopting. How many times did Leo want to beat Acola, Spargo saying the same, and SkyJay beating ANYONE with incineroar… But they’re starting to come into the American mindset. Japan hasn’t (although Japan now has the issue of their best characters consistently placing top 5 in every tournament… but again. They don’t care. They’ve accepted it) It’s time to realize. Ultimate sucks. The lack of future patches and the devs being party focused should’ve been the nail in the coffin. But we are stubborn (and have nothing else tbh)

[@GlitchanBlack]

That’s the US of A for ya - land of the free and the home of the dumb.

[@kei7059]

It is considered to be "the strongest person (Acola)" rather than "the strongest character" by Japanese people.

[@megaman7799]

This comment is a bit too pessimistic for my tastes, but the general sentiment is true. Japan has no problems playing the game in whatever form or fashion it takes to win. They will time you out 10 games in a row if that's what it took. Combine this with a mindset of "the better player always wins" and they're a lot more tolerant of Ult's goofiness than the West is. Western players just want to ban everything, while Japan just loves the grind and playing the game. Either accept Ult's stupidity and embrace it, or stop playing it. If playing the game as it is genuinely causes you this much anguish, then don't play it.

[@calivali2876]

@@kei7059 fair, I added my own American flair to it as I believe acola is heavily carried by Steve It’s definitely open to debate but i don’t think anything would change my mind of it (nor do I wish to meaninglessly argue about it lol)

[@bruhgocrzy5461]

@@calivali2876 Steve is broken yeah, but learning the matchup is what everyone should do it's not hard to learn the matchup and acola uses a broken character to his full potential, making him the top player. acola has used other characters before when he was recognized for having a 90% win rate. complaining about a character to me is so pointless, its mainly how someone plays that character and falls for the same gimmick that will make you think "oh, there's nothing I can do against steve", but there is just learn the matchup and get better at the game, smash is fun at the end of the day so stop crying over the tier list and have fun.

[@OseiTheWarriors]

I don't think the gap is that far for NA and Japan tbh even with Delta and Kagaribi I think the the players the invaders lost to weren't randos or nobodies. I think region is a huge factor. Like imagine if there was only 1 local in the US and every high skill player attended every week. The mentality is bad but fighting experience is lacking.

[@saturnzone]

Shadic and Light save us

[@littlelito8424]

Good vid but mic is garbage

[@lordmew5]

In Smash? Im sorry, but how many top players are japanese at the moment? Also, you dont bring up 2 of the most important factors. Japan has always been stronger in gimmicks but worse in fundamentals. Ultimate as a game has destroyed a bunch of smash fundamentals so they are at an inherent advantage in this game the other part is a bunch of smash players got in trouble so we lost a lot of them fkr example DJNintendo.

[@cullenhutchison6528]

An important thing to consider is that the NA players who have been doing the best recently (SHADIC, Sonix, Light, etc.) were not present. Most of the top NA players who went have been in some level of a slump lately compared to their peak results, so I wasn't really expecting a top 8 from any of them.

[@judithforever9494]

Ya the USA didn’t even show up for this tourney

[@cullenhutchison6528]

@@judithforever9494 Zomba was there, but I'm pretty sure that's it.

[@LoadedKlip]

Nah ... Sparg0 has done as good better than Shadic. Including beating Shadic ...twice! NA got wrecked. No excuses.

[@cullenhutchison6528]

@@LoadedKlip By "recently" I mean in the last couple of months. SHADIC has been doing better than Sparg0 during that time.

[@LoadedKlip]

@@cullenhutchison6528 sparg0 beat Shadic a month ago. Does that count in your "last couple of months"

[@bovid2750]

80-something characters and I want to play none of them lol

[@bleuemoone8710]

I think also the game is on the downslope so there's less drive to improve in general.

[@user-go3nd4fy6c]

NA "BAN STAVE" JAPAN "Defeat acola"

[@Diddykong8775]

It's definitely not this. NA deals with Acola more than Japan does. Only Hurt and Miya are Acola's true struggles in japan. NA has Spargo, Sonix, Leo and Mute with positive records on Acola. It's not the Steve discourse.

[@justice8718]

⁠@@Diddykong8775 NA players are simply just has far more hardcore than Japanese players. What holds them back is simply the worse environments.

[@marcosalvarezmorga6378]

SIMPLE MEXICO ITS ALWAYS ON TOP NOw THAT BOTH MEXICAN PLAYERS ARE NOT DOING WELL SEEMS AMERICA ITS NO DOING WELL BUT IN GENERAL PEOPLE FROM AMERICA ALWAYS SUCKS ITS JUST THAT NOW SHOWS MORE BECAUSE SPARGO AND LEO ARE NOT DOING WELL... EASY

[@Dougie02]

I can already hear the copium from Light, Tweek, Sonix, Shadics, and other top players saying our best did not go. Sheesh, can you all just travel and get it over with. NA hasn't been the best in a long time now. You just stay in your box and be the best in your region. lol, let the international players get better.

[@quinkana1]

I agree, but I would love to see Shadic go to kagaribi and the other Japanese tourneys.

[@Xorevre]

i agree with your general statement, those guys definitely should actually travel, but saying they are at a lower level than acola and miya is just ridiculous. especially sonix

[@GlitchanBlack]

Oh, you're worried about the toxicity from Sonix, the guy who does it for shits and giggles? You should be worried about how Sparg0jo Satoru would react.

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

@@quinkana1 As a Japanese person, I would like to suggest that shadic will not be able to win in Japan. After watching Sparg0 this time, I am convinced of this.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Traveling costs money and there's no prize money to be won in Japan. I don't think we can blame any of them for not traveling. And even if they do have the financial resources necessary, they still don't have to. Plenty of Japanese players make the same choice.

[@piercenborchardt5224]

I hate to say it but I bet Sonix would’ve cracked top 8

[@OseiTheWarriors]

Probably, considering KEN got 7th

[@dingo9696]

Guarantee you would have said the same about spargo if i asked you this last week. NA has just fallen off.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

I find it hard to tell. Sonix sometimes loses in matchups he's not very familiar with(example: icymist Samus at smash con), and then he spends a bunch of time on his own to lab out specific strategies against said character. So let's say Sonix meets Leaf in bracket(the robin player who took out Maister), I could see him losing, go the lab, and beat Leaf on their next encounter if it happens. Since Delta 8 and Kagaribi 12 happened in the span of a few days, it's not unlikely he would have underperformed at both. But then, he would probably gain more from an extended trip in Japan than most other players.

[@user-io6xr3si3m]

Sonix Hurt,Yoshidoraがどうなるかによるけどsonixは間違いなく優勝候補筆頭やろな NA選手の中で日本で1番活躍できると思う

[@Diddykong8775]

Top 4 at least

[@smashmonkey6304]

Its actually way simpler than that, and you may not like the answer: It's IQ Japanese (and all East Asians) have an average IQ of 105 which makes them the smartest large racial group (just ahead of Whites/Europeans). IQ also negatively correlates with IQ. So if you have a higher IQ, odds are you also have a faster reaction time. What this means is that, on average, when you sit down to compete with a Japanese player, he is going to react faster than you and be able to make split second decisions faster and better than you are. And while these gaps aren't huge on their own, we're talking about the very top level where this stuff matters. That slightly faster reaction time means a lot. If you don't believe me, look at some other games. Koreans dominated Starcraft for its entire history. Koreans dominate Tekken. The Japanese have been on top in other fighting games. If Asians enter into a game in any large numbers, they will usually dominate. There are exceptions (some Pakistan players are really good in Tekken) on the whole, Asians will dominate whatever they go into. Ultimate was a bigger hit in Japan than the other Smash titles, so you are seeing a lot more of them. Expect this trend to continue

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Weird racist people show up everywhere uh.

[@kitsune6363]

But the educated said statistics are racist!

[@sxultima]

NA players don’t make money in Japan so no high stakes

[@carltonmensah349]

The only issue with this incomplete ass game is tht they dnt have a replay button or rematch button… I hate having to kerp watching the vids over😆 I like the game tho

[@jodo4316]

They just have a higher concentration of top level players. That alone drives passion and motivation for the game. NA also just has a lower tolerance for cheese.

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

They feel a sense of crisis that they were originally number one and that has now been overturned.

[@Diddykong8775]

I mean yall say NA, but its really Mexico who got crushed. Zomba was the only relevant American in attendance, and he did alright the first tournament, and bad the 2nd. Other not so top Americans like bassmage, jazzho and goblin arguably did better than expected. Last time the U.S. had Dabuz, Lima and Scend and they all did just as expected. Let's not forget that when Asimo, Shuton and Miya came to America recently, they all underperformed and nobody cared. It's all good.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Did Zomba really do alright in the first tournament? He won a tournament bigger than Delta earlier this season, you'd expect someone like that to make top 8. Asimo did not underperform at all, I don't know why people keep saying that. And people did care about Shuton and Miya underperforming.

[@1215ish]

Lol suddenly it is just mexico and not NA but when the US underperforms you have to include other regions like mexico or canada into your territorry. Stay dickriding America. Mexico usually dumpster on the USA but you dont talk about THAT. Miya got beaten by non-american in genesis. Not a single american beat him there.

[@Diddykong8775]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 Zomba performed as you would expect on that first tournament. People focus on his Genesis too much. But Zomba has always been quite inconsistent. He placed 33rd at NA's port priority in November of last year, which was a far worse result. Then, 2 months later, he places 9th at Japan's Umebura, which I think was more stacked than Port Priority, and then 1 month later he wins Genesis (even more stacked then Umebura), but then in March places 9th at Collision, much less stacked. So yeah, placing 13th a delta, which was more stacked than Collision, is just around where you would expect Zomba to place. USA did as expected, if not better considering the other players. But Mexico is really the one country that notably underperformed due to Spargo's placings. Even Leo performed JUST as expected, considering his results in the past 6-9 months, including his 25th at Genesis.

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

The US only lumps together NA when it is convenient, and separates Mexico when it is inconvenient. They don't want to admit that Japan is superior to them.

[@kayden2119]

I still just disagree that NA has fallen off at all. Other continents simply caught up. NA also has the most competition as its where the most people travel for tournaments. Japanese tournaments largely only have japanese top players.

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

So why did NA suffer such a crushing defeat during Golden Week? I think our arrogant belief that we are number one led to this result.

[@judithforever9494]

@@user-nb8ep7oc8dbecause of jet lag and the fact that none of the top USA players went(Tweek, sonix,kola, light, shadic, muteace, lima, peabnut)

[@kayden2119]

@@user-nb8ep7oc8d During what?

[@user-nb8ep7oc8d]

@@judithforever9494 Jet lag? They had been in Japan for days at that time. Also, are the top players you mention, excluding sonix, considered to be better than Sparg0 was before he went to Japan?

[@1215ish]

@@judithforever9494 Ah so if Japan underperforms that is not an excuse but if NA underpeforms you guys are suddenly okay to say "jetlag hold us back" USA is a nation of hypocrites.

[@LazyNinjass]

Neck beard for days… smart man tho

[@franknfoot7200]

What does neck beard mean? I’m being serial as well And for context my beard goes to my nipples, but I’ve always wondered as I’ve heard it recently

[@LazyNinjass]

@@franknfoot7200 it just looks gross. It’s literally what it sounds like. Your beard is all the way down your neck instead of keeping it up to your chin to look more clean. Neck beards are for homeless and dirty people that don’t care 🤷

[@LazyNinjass]

@@franknfoot7200 long beards are ok but the way it’s all over the neck while being short just looks gross. Not only men think that but the majority of woman think that too

[@itzgeebz]

Watching smash this weekend I feel like this game isn't worth investing so much time into. It doesn't even look fun for the competitors and as viewers we pick up on that. There are too many obstacles for players to find it worthwhile to get to these perfect levels that Japanese players are at. I do think Japan is rightfully at the peak currently because they are blessed with a lot of these advantages that lead to easy grinding and that's fine. Also, something about watching this weekend killed my ambition for learning the game because I see that these players have to be nothing short of perfect most of the time and that really doesn't feel feasible if you don't commit ungodly amounts of time and live in Japan. I guess its a question of how much do you want to keep putting into Ultimate currently, its perfectly acceptable and understandable to drop it at this point IMO

[@AllahuWhitebar]

NA players trying to be “influencers” with dumb cringe shorts/skits. Imagine if every NBA players started a KZbin channel, European leagues would take over in 6 months…

[@Diddykong8775]

Covid ended smash in NA. Not only were severally top NA players canceled during thus time (Nairo, Samsora, Salem, etc), but some players were never the same (Esam, Marss, etc) and the local scenes massively died. Plus DLCs did not help. Only a new smash game can revive NA.

[@noggie3041]

You would've gotten top 8 again

[@littlebabylove7218]

Is Dabuz Gay ?

[@JonathanRodriguez-cl8gq]

It felt cursed for non Japanese players to not make top 8. Maister got robbed against Doramigi.

[@andrevanderlinden8722]

The mentality of this comment is a perfect explanation of why NA has fallen off. "Maister got robbed" no he didnt. He lost game 5 due to him SDing and him getting read and outplayed hard at the end. If you focus on "getting robbed" you dont focus on what you could do next. That's the problem here. Show a drive to improve, not act like the game is against you.

[@JonathanRodriguez-cl8gq]

Maybe you’re right

[@BolognaYT]

L take

[@proeuk3205]

Any arguments?

[@aJazzcat]

Dabuz, this seems kind of hypocritical given that you wouldn't rematch me the other day because you were scared to lose your gsp. American smash players care about money while Japanese players simply love the game and love the grind 😢