Why we NEED "Bad" Japanese Language Tools! - Gaijin Goombah

Why We NEED "Bad" Language Tools! - Gaijin Goombah
Start learning Japanese or other languages completely free with Busuu here: 📱Web: bit.ly/gaijin-... 💻Mobile: bit.ly/gaijin-... Over a year or so, I've seen a lot of Japanese KZbinrs criticizing different apps, programs, and classes that teach the language to adults trying to learn in their free time. Well, as an adult learning Japanese in their free time, let me toss my hat in the ring and explain why we kinda NEED programs like this!
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[@GaijinGoombah]

For clarification, again, cause I know what kind of uproar this video may start; I'm not disagreeing with folks who have been explaining the necessity of Japanese cultural subtleties when it comes to the language. I just think there's more that needs considering here. Also, I have no problem with people disagreeing with what I say in this video. I just wanted, from my perspective as a Japanese language learner, to put out this other side of the argument.

[@AzraelThanatos]

I'm assuming that it's also a lot like the oddities that you'll get from non-native english speakers where there's the textbook version of the language and then there's the actually used version...you often end up with an extremely formal version of it that might skip a lot of things like contractions, not to mention idioms and similar things that don't quite directly translate. I've heard horror stories from people who were overseas for parts of their later education where they confused teachers because of it... Then there's a similar mess that I've heard of where Quebec uses an archaic version of French that creates problems there

[@redschafer7804]

you have to start some where and text book insert language here is a start you might not be fluent but you might be able to get your point across to a native speaker

[@thehulk86]

I don't see anything you're saying here as any kind of a hot take at all. I had the same experience when I learned Spanish in high school and then saw that it didn't apply when confronted with native speakers at my part-time cashier job. I'd venture to guess that basically ALL languages aren't technically spoken correctly by the majority of their native speakers. We as a member of any given culture learn our first language, and then we learn how to make it easier and more comfortable to use later on in our life as we develop social skills and experience within our own culture. That's how you end up with slang or regional dialects, etc. But to teach someone a SECOND language, they need to learn the core rules first, then they can learn how to not sound like a robot later. It's a walk before you run thing. So you're totally right when you say these language learning programs are necessary.

[@ryanricks318]

Soon zoon sounds rumble dat baddy tones jus musickoo meh measures anews ryss cute soso tak dat don thoom o blacky baka boosty bum err dares meh hears shh dat rah grr nya sojourneys

[@AkinokazeHaruichiban]

There's also the simple point that it would be better to be clearly understood, but looked at weirdly for using "proper" basic structure, than for you to be misunderstood and talking gibberish cause you started off with no concept of the structure and just dropped words at random cause you didn't have the basic foundation of understanding to work from. It's like the difference between various British regional accents [where we might use unique words, or omit letters such as T or H, or drop joining words example: "Aight, you go up ill." Instead of "All right, you go up the hill."] and standardised "Queen's English." People might look at you funny for speaking "Proper" English, but at least you'll be clearly understood, and that is a FAR simpler difference than between Textbook Japanese and Cultural Japanese.

[@michigosinister1508]

I actually had a Japanese girl in my dorm when I went to College. She was learning English and could speak it fairly well. But there were a few things she just didn't get. One thing I remember is she didn't understand how to place a punctuation mark correctly in a sentence. Which was something I learned how to do when I was very young. She also didn't understand certain words would we use and we would need to explain what they meant. It was such an eye opener to how different our languages are.

[@strippinheat]

Had a similar situation with someone that didn't understand how to use plural nouns. "There are many car in the parking lot."

[@dragonbretheren]

In these cases, the ESL (English as a Second Language) students like your dormmate are learning Textbook English in the same way these Japanese content creators are trying to dissuade us from learning Textbook Japanese. Textbook language may sound stiff and stilted to a native listener, but it conveys the necessary information, which is always going to be more important than "sounding fluent".

[@GlitchedVision]

@@dragonbretheren yup, and only through practice can a textbook speaker transition to more native sounding language.

[@CyColt]

@@strippinheat in that person's defense in that instance, they were literally one letter away from having that make sense.

[@WarmLillie]

Take chances, Make mistakes. - Ms. Frizzle It only real way to learn, because each mistake is an opportunity and chance to grow more.

[@crazyconan28]

100% this! There are similar quotes of the master having been the one who has failed the most and learned from each one. As adults we don't want to seem dumb to ourselves or others, pushing past that fear for those like me who have paves the pathway to truly try and later on to actually succeed in what our goals are.

[@Kyle_116]

The issue seems to be Japanese culture has no tolerance for mistakes, like Gaijin talking about people getting fired for mistakenly using a wrong phrase.

[@southcoastinventors6583]

@@Kyle_116 Nah that hyperbole Gajins get judged at a different level as natives.

[@MaoRatto]

Ms. Frizzle's quote WORKS for languages, but not for Science.

[@Omio9999]

@@MaoRatto You've never seen medical trials, have you? >:3c

[@YunUroko]

This actually doesn't apply to just Japanese, but to any language ever. I recall, when I was learning Spanish, that at first I was taught to always use the pronouns (Yo, Tu, etc) before the verb, even though it's almost never used when speaking normally. It's only half-way through my first year that our teacher dropped the pronouns, because we understood the idea (and that's coming from someone whose native language isn't that far off from Spanish) It kinda feels like those people criticizing language learning apps either forgot how they first learnt a foreign language... Or never tried learning one in the first place. I mean, I would never expect a French beginner to immediately be able to conjugate verbs perfectly, use the vous or talk in slang. Heck, even an advanced learner can still struggle. So, even though I do get the criticism, it feels rather hypocritical to me. Plus, even though I sometimes get frustrated with Duolingo, it really helped me improve my vocabulary and written/oral comprehension for Japanese.

[@rainynight02]

I'm learning Spanish on Duolingo, I'm on unit 13 now and it started dropping the "yo" and "tú" and I'm thinking "no! I'm not ready for that yet!" But I'm somehow hanging in there.

[@redwolf1015]

This was literally my thought while hearing the "criticisms" of the apps. Spanish is one of my natives tongues. Spanish can vary greatly from country to country, Mexican Spanish is very different than Columbian Spanish, right down to different slang. Plus, in schools they mostly teach a form of Castellano Spanish as well as conjugations that you'd never really use in Mexico i.e., vos, vosotros, etc. I never saw those spanish classes as "bad" for not teaching the proper slang and current colloquials. I agree though it is a strange complaint for what is essentially an app that helps open the door to language learning, So what if they learn a rudimentary form of it? They'll get better with practice and as they speak it more, like ANY LANGUAGE EVER lol

[@IsysLunaSkeeter]

I'm Portuguese and we had to learn to always use the pronouns when speaking in English. my Slovak friend has issues with using it because in Slovak is even worse than in Portuguese at not using pronouns

[@Vergilangel]

I have a fun anecdote even though it isn't Japanese related. I come from a Latin American country and over here I went to basically a private school/institute to learn English, I was passionate about the language because of music/videogames so it didn't feel like a chore, and I really liked going there to practice/get better. To advance in this institute you needed to complete the textbook exercises, attend several classes and then have a tiny test with one of the teachers to see if you were really able to promote to the next level. Long story short, I completely stopped using my textbook around early midpoint of proficiency but I absolutely went to every class, started reading and writing in English for my own amusement and started to watch a lot of KZbin videos which was my little segway to "real" English (even though the English teachers in the institute did a really good job of doing this as well) and after some time I got reprimanded because I just wasn't advancing at all. I took their test to see my current level and I advanced from low mid point to close to advanced classes to the surprise of everyone in there. The morale of the story is... I think that the most important thing when learning a language is to have passion towards it, have something that you really want to learn and share and enjoy out of it. That will definitely carry you through the early, mid and hell even the high levels. As papa Shirogane said: "The best way to learn English is to fall in love with an American because everything becomes an opportunity to share and discover new things about that person that you would normally have nothing in common"

[@erixon2012]

I like how passionate gaijin gets after around 1st quarter of every sit-and-talk type video you can see he cares about the subject a lot.

[@MrGamefan77]

It’s interesting to see how in Japanese you don’t have to say the subject of the sentence because it’s implied. I speak Spanish from a young age so that concept isn’t as foreign to me as it is in English or even French where in those languages you have to say the subject in a sentence. In Spanish, it’s correct to say “Yo quiero algo” (I want something) but since the conjugation of the verb implies the subject it’s also grammatically correct to say “Quiero algo”. But even though both are correct, colloquially people prefer to use one sentence over the other and it’s not always cut and dry which form is preferred colloquially. Going back to the previous example, while both are correct it makes more sense with that verb to include the subject when speaking because it feels less awkward (for me). I don’t think in Spanish using vs not using the subject is as nuanced as in Japanese but it’s still interesting to know that there is still nuance between the spoken and textbook forms in both languages.

[@Ibajedi]

Hay un gran diferencia entre Español del libro y del lengua.

[@HybrydaArt]

tbh in Polish you also don't use the subject, or next to no use bc sometimes you need one. right now I have to use tow "you" but same sentence in PL will use none. it's kind of hidden in verbs I speak - mówię You speak - mówisz he speaks - mówi and so on We usually use subject when we want to point them out, and then it usually implies a bit more, sometimes X"D

[@MaoRatto]

I noticed that immediately when learning Spanish which sounds better. Though I struggle with the verb conjugation because my native tongue is English. I understand how the verbs work, but as someone studying 3 Romance languages. Spanish, Italian, than Italian. I find just the syntax structure allows for more room. The Latin system of conjugation allows for this general pro-drop, but what really annoys me is verbs with S. Where in my native tongue is English, where it seems tenses don't even align all of the time. I can see why someone who speaks any of these three struggle with " This, That, or VERY NOTICABLY it ". Spanish es muy difícil comprender, pero estudiando e observando. ( I'm still learning and memorizing conjugations... Along side the vocabulary. I notice the shared vocabulary, the verb + pronoun structure. Just trying to memorize and replicate it, along side the er, ir, ar verbs. I understand the ar verbs the most. and learning ir ones.

[@joesavag]

You can easily drop subjects in normal conversation in Spanish and it’s way more common to do so especially when you talk to someone, verbs are already modified and one can easily tell who one is talking about between two people. I usually hear subjects when one is using it to show emotion, emphasis, or in formal speak.

[@DakoGuyver]

As someone who's wanted to learn several different languages I can say that it's never been easy. I'm not a teen or young adult anymore, but I'm willing to try something new / a new method to see if it helps.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

Do how Military Linguists do it total immersion and oh my god they are extreme

[@SilverZephyrFalcon]

For my college Japanese courses, taught mostly by native Japanese speakers, they taught us using "Watashi", etc first, then later introduced more informal concepts, just as you were suggesting. It makes it a lot easier to start with more similar language and go from there rather than immediately jumping into all the huge differences.

[@PandaJohn71]

I have been learning Japanese with Duolingo for 2 years and I am seeing progress in at least comprehension when also watching anime or other Japanese language tracks. I may not know everything but I am still learning. I also try to practice making my own sentences with more experienced speakers and they tend to correct me if I have a word, the Grammer or the sentence structure wrong in a polite way.

[@antiskill2012]

The nuance of changing your speech for different social settings is almost a separate issue from grammar & vocabulary learning. I've seen native Japanese teens at their first job struggle with the appropriate language for dealing with customers, coworkers, and bosses. Likewise, I think it would be really weird to take someone learning English for the first time and suddenly teach them how to write persuasive business emails or something. Granted, Japanese is different in that it includes so much grammar-switching on a daily basis that you NEED to start practicing from the beginning, but I think it's one area where beginners really don't need to aim for perfection or be corrected on every little detail.

[@SomeWeirdCat]

funny enough we actually used duolingo in my college japanese class taught by a native teacher. it's incredibly useful to just learn the literal language. from there you can learn the context and culture once you actually have an understanding of the basics of the language and the vocabulary

[@Alexander-rk4cu]

Nice, corrently learning japanese through duo.

[@belstar1128]

Duolingo Japanese was way too short when i tried it. it was very disappointing Duolingo likes to focus on European languages like welsh and Irish.

[@louisvictor3473]

IMO duo lingo is a pretty good complimentary tool. It gives you daily contact reinforcing the right synapses, freshens up on "random" topics you already seen, and some vocabulary. Is it enough? Not even close. Is this still useful though? Absolutely.

[@louisvictor3473]

@@belstar1128 Course length isn't what determines their focus. Courses are created separately usually by a native team. If a course is too short or too basic, it doesn't really get affected by duo lingo focus or lack of it.

[@funkygecko]

That is not true at all now. The Japanese tree has been expanded and is more than twice the size of Irish.

[@mantis638]

As someone born in America and learning Japanese and almost 30, I can agree with this. While I’m still at the elementary school level, I’m still struggling. Even just counting to ten in Japanese is tough for me. Even learning different versions of English seems to be an issue. While in college, I had a foreign exchange student from Britain in a club. When we met up, we talked about how the education level was confusing to him. So, I agree that it would be good to learn the social design, but it is better to start out simply and find the social aspect later.

[@ncolvin05]

Language learning is much like reading: it really doesn't matter how you practice it; using it constantly will always get you to improve.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

I find it helps when you explain the language to others as you are being expose and reviewing what you know/knew

[@sweetieluv8]

The different "I" and "you" pronouns you mentioned really helped me understand a scene in Your Name where Mistuha is in Taki's body and trying to get the right pronoun while talking to his friends. And I think it can also serve as a great allegory for non-native speakers to try to understand at least part of the whole issue. There's a culture that we would want to learn and understand while learning a language that isn't taught but more experienced. Thank you for your videos as always. Different cultures fascinate me and you do videos on cultures with such kindness and understanding.

[@aniflowers1998]

I see the japanese nuances in it's languages the same way I see, for example, slang in english. I'm native to germany, so english isn't my first language. (It's also the only language I managed to learn besides my own xD) When learning english, we learned the text book basic stuff first. Things like slang, figures of speech and shortening are things I learned AFTER having learned the basics, through actually speaking english with nativ english speakers for years. It's part of the learning process of speech to first learn the basics, and than learn the extra stuff once you know the basics. If my teacher had tried to teach us slang at the same time as the basics, you can bet I wouldn't be able to write this comment in english xD

[@donmau219]

It's like teaching how to swim to a baby. You dont just throw them into the water and expect them to swim instantly. You need to give them water-wings (in this case the text-book like lessons, structures, etc. being the foundation) and teach them slowly how to swim. In time, they will know how to swim naturally (just like speaking a language naturally). This will absolutely take a long time, but without a foundation, it will take a longer time tbh.

[@podracer35]

I get what you're saying and I hate to be that guy, but I'm pretty sure from my child development classes that babies do have a paddling reflex for swimming pretty early on, but yeah, you wouldn't throw them into the deep end first thing just as a safety thing.

[@MomokoTuHarumaki]

I feel like even a broken clock is right at least twice a day. And even an imperfect language software can open the path to learning. Google translate, Duolingo. Both can give you a base understanding. Once I'm able to really sit down and work on it, I might add Busuu to my toolbox for Japanese learning. I know my tweet replies that are in Japanese aren't perfect, so I want to build my skill.

[@TheBlahblah86]

Thanks for bringing this up. I've struggled to learn new languages for years. I've often been met with issues pertaining to how to pronounce certain words in another language, only to find some countries have multiple dialects of the same language. Case and point being taekwondo and hearing more than one Korean pronouncing the first syllable differently.

[@Areebiannight]

When it comes to a understanding both sides, you always explain it the best 😊

[@Ibajedi]

I am a native english speaker and at 19 I learned Spanish for a service mission, I had a 3 month firehose class for grammar and getting a good foundation. It took me a year to become proficient and another 6 months to become comfortable at a native level. I am audio-visual so listening to music and movies I knew in english helped me. I fully agree that everyone learning a language needs a base that they are familiar with as a starting point so they can get closer and closer to the native level.

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

As someone who likes to see how language apps handle Gaeilge (Irish) i really feel this. Sure the in depth stuff is good and needed. But you need a good way to do basics like these apps do

[@WackoMcGoose]

From what I've heard, Duolingo Gaeilge is so messed up that it's actually _counterproductive_ to try to use it, and their Gaidhlig (Scottish) course is only slightly better... compared to their Norwegian course being both one of the longest and _strongest_ on the site.

[@belstar1128]

A lot of apps have that language despite being almost extinct. but never Bengali why is this the case. the Irish language is like what Navajo is to the USA.

[@alexandrae9294]

Thank you for your insight. I fully agree with this. It's just the same as other learned topics: you need to learn the basic rules before you can break them. Hope you feel better!

[@angelsinthewindow]

I have been using Doulingo for a number of years now but that hasn't been my only option. I have actually branched out to other things, using anime, manga, and other youtube videos in order to sort of catch different ways of speaking. Different books for studying and even going to asian marts to try and read the packages. I don't have someone I can speak Japanese with sadly but I branch out however I can to use it outside the world but Doulingo has helped me at least start. And now my 7 year old niece has gotten interested in Japanese because of hearing me practice.

[@adhambarbour]

As someone who has been using Busuu for six months since that last sponsored video, I can attest to that Busuu being great for beginners. My Arabic has improved from nothing to I'm able to see letters and I'm starting to be able to put words together. Now my parents who are native speakers have some gripes but all in all they're just happy that I'm finally starting to learn and speak Arabic and try to get into my culture. Thank you Busuu.❤️ Oh and you too Gaijin.😅❤️❤️

[@ultimablackmage]

I'm honestly surprised you haven't started making videos to teach people conversational Japanese & survival tips when visiting the land.

[@GaijinGoombah]

I would but there's at least a dozen people who already do that.

[@FQuainton]

Thank you! You just made something click for me. When you mentioned the dropping of the subject. I really like watching videos from a Japanese indie band named Cantoy. Recently, they have been putting out short videos, 3 minutes or less, with English subtitles. At the beginning of the videos, Miri-Pow introduces herself with "Miri-Pow desu" but the English subtitle is more appropriate for an English speaking audience.

[@samwill7259]

Language? Complicated? Since when? It's not like the construct of language is one of the most cosmically, fractally complex things that humanity as a species ever game up with that is functionally impossible to actually quantify because by its nature it's constantly mutating new exceptions.

[@ASMroleplay737]

Very good points. That's why I feel like the best way to learn is to use teaching apps and some sort of exposure in tandem. For a lot of people, that's anime. I'm pretty sure I learned half of the japanese words I know, from anime.

[@chaoschalice]

I didn't watch the first busuu sponsored vid but here i'm already 50% in busuu japanese language lesson and not even knowing gaijin goomba is actually sponsored by them xD

[@GaijinGoombah]

They've been super easy to work with and yeah, I'd be neck deep in it if I wasn't reached out to by them lol.

[@JeannieLove]

I agree with everything you said. The people criticizing, I suspect may have learned English and Japanese around the same time so they may not understand what it's like to learn a new language when you're an adult.

[@ScooterinAB]

They did not. They likely learned English in adolescence and spent long nights crying about how hard teachers were making it instead of teaching easier language first.

[@netbrood]

Kumon!! Please sponsor gaijin goombah!!

[@GaijinGoombah]

I'd be ok with that.

[@o0Siomha0o]

Fascinating video Gajijn, as always! Hope you'll recover fully soon but do try to rest until then!

[@RyuKaiShin2005]

I just heard about this from the most recent Unexpectables 2! Get feeling better, sir.

[@neoburst1]

100% agree. will these tools make you fluent in the language? no. Buuuut it will (assuming you do actively study) give you a solid foundation and actually allow you to have a actual conversation with someone in your chosen language that you can then build off of

[@BrotherRoga]

As a guy from Finland, I am lucky to have some lingual similarities with Japanese to help bridge these gaps you talked about. Hopefully that will make things easier for me, like having been exposed to English a ton as a kid helped me learn English.

[@SKy_the_Thunder]

As a German, yes on some level it bugs me when native English speakers "butcher" concepts of our language, like the (unintuitive and entirely arbitrary) gendering of nouns and adjectives or the decently complex declination & conjugation. But those concepts are objectively and undeniably hard to grasp for someone who has never before had to deal with them. A "close enough" is already an achievement for a beginner. And that's between two languages that are very closely related. Now apply that to languages that have developed independently for millennia...

[@louisvictor3473]

I have to say, I don't speak Japanese, I am merely curious about (some) cultural aspects and "products" (I hate that word here but you get the gist) from there, and ofc a bit of nostalgia from when I was young and far more into it (a bit of a otaku turned weab back them). But I do speak 4 languages (1 natively, 2 fluently, one... ehh I passed a test and I get by everyday life mostly). I have learned at least two of them fully as an adult, and the other one I got the written basis as a teen, got complacent with my level for a few years, then resumed it at around the end of my teenage/early adulthood (depends which cuttoff point you're using). So I know a thing or two about the challenges of learning as an adult, and I have to say, I fully agree with you. IMO, the main goal of teaching material for begginers and "begginers" is to get you to a point where you're good enough to learn about the language in the target language. You have to be able to be able to look up a word in the local dictionary and get the meaning. And you have to be able to understand well enough spoken/written/both material (whatever your target is) in the target language so that you aren't just putting all your effort into just getting the gist of it, therefore still having mental energy to notice things like choice of words, that the speaker/author says or writes things in a manner different from how you learned or remember. If you're at that point, learning the nuances is much easier, be it via an advanced or supposedly "better" course or even on your own. And imo, at this point adults have an advantage over children, as we have a better understanding of social norms, context, etc. and are usually better suited to pick up those nuances. If a "bad" tool can teach you enough to pass this treshold or at least makes you get closer to that point, it is not a bad tool at all. It is just not a tool for the entire journey, but what single tool is the only and one for the entire language learning journey?

[@Shorai_3]

I tried Rosetta Stone and gave up after one lesson, as I felt I had skipped some levels of learning. There has to be something or someone out there that can teach me Japanese at my learning curve. Someone who has struggled with a learning disability all their life.

[@jenmark-6593]

I am someone who has really struggled to learn a second language and I probably shouldn’t have tried Japanese. I quickly got overwhelmed and mostly gave up, only doing one or two exercises in hiragana and katakana so I could tell myself I hadn’t really given up. However after a year of that I recently started learning again and it’s still difficult but I am making steady progress. My point is that you shouldn’t underestimate how much it can help a struggling learner to take away some aspects of what they’re learning and let them focus on the basics before they try again with the complete subject with all its complexities.

[@ScooterinAB]

Do you mean that it would be easier to teach simple Japanese without additional complexities like pronoun use? If so, I completely agree. You're already learning a completely different grammar system and all kinds of new words. It's easier to take that extra stuff off the table for now and teach the basics, then add the complexity of when to use subjects and pronouns (for example) later when you're already producing language.

[@spacecat8511]

The irony of Nativshark being the ad playing right before this video. 😅 …I’ve also wanted to learn other languages for a long time (my “state graduation requirement” was two years of spanish; one teacher never showed up, like ever; the other quite literally showed up nearly 20 minutes late and tossed coloring sheets at us) but the flack these language learning platforms get honestly makes me pretty discouraged (especially since I’m broke.)

[@VintageFenrir]

I don't have a lot of experience with this, but from my perspective teaching the textbook correct way first and then teaching the more natural way is the best way to do it. Like you said, it's difficult to learn all that information just starting out. There's a reason they first focus on teaching you basic words, and then move on to regular, and then more complicated sentences. In addition to that, it more quickly teaches people that may not care about fluency right away. Speaking like a textbook tells you to may sound weird, but it will be understood. That may be all you need for a certain situation, and then once you have that basis it's a lot easier to learn fluency later. You will already be used to all the words and general forms, and will basically just be taking a grammar class. This is at least how it is in my personal experience.

[@AlvoriaGPM]

I'm honestly really happy for this video. Being on the side of someone who has picked up a bit of Japanese over the years, I'm SUPER intimidated about trying to use any of these services and programs to learn more because I know just enough to be aware of how it's not "real" Japanese. Hearing you describe these favorably makes me feel a lot better about picking one up at some point and actually giving it a try. Thank you!

[@Kalebfenoir]

I think its funny the "good morning" greeting can be used generally at any point in the day... because I know that on English, I have entirely done the thing where you go to work and run into someone, and by instinct just mutter out "good morning." (Or as I tend to say it "g'mrnng.." even if it's like 6 at night. It's half greeting, half joke about the time of day: for the person you're talking to it might be the end of their day... but for YOU it's the start of YOURS. So it's technically "morning" for you in a sense. Lol

[@jamesclark6864]

5:30 I feel like Ohayo-gozaimasu started as just something to use in the morning, but circumstances arose such that it shifted to being used the first time you see someone on any given day, probably involving the implications of never hearing the phrase from someone close to you.

[@garybrown2039]

4:25 On duolingo its the same for Portuguese. My father amd his siblings are all native speakers and can somewhat follow Brazilian Portuguese. But when i say the literal and correct translation of "pleased to meet you" (Prazer em conhecer você) people are greatful but a little surprised . My Dad later explained that saying it like that is very formal and technically correct but also irregular in terms of how people actually great and talk to each other.

[@MrBrawler16]

I'm gonna try to make the trip to Japan early 2024 (from southern US for context) so this gives me a lot to think about. There's no way I'm gonna be fluent, but I'd at least try to get the basics and fundamentals of Japanese.

[@ScooterinAB]

IMO, it's more important to be able to order you meal or say where you're going when getting help buying a train ticket than it is to learn a myriad of pronouns.

[@UnderTheSkin13]

I taught myself english when I was 9 which was pretty useful since you can't really learn japanese while using my native language. Even Duolingo won't let you, or at least it didn't back when I first tried. I'm almost a year in and even if I'm nowhere near a basic level yet, it's better than not learning.

[@karlhnedkovsky5214]

It's just like the "Stones and sand in the jar" analogy! The stones represent the bare basics (in this case textbook Japanese), therefore they have to come first, then followed by the sand (which is the cultural nuances). If you start from the basics, it is much easier to understand the following teachings of the cultural nuances. Just like the sand and stones, if you put in the sand first, there won't ever be room for the stones anymore! If you begin hammering the cultural nuances into a learners mind too early, they will, like you said, get quickly overwhelmed, and may drop the language and give up. So yes, I agree with your point! Textbook language should never be glossed over or slept on!

[@BlueJeiVA]

The thing I always keep in mind when I hear people downplaying one of these applications is that "controversy clicks". If you aren't critical of something in at least SOME way, you will always be taken less seriously. I tried Rosetta Stone and Duolingo and just never felt like I, personally, was retaining what they were teaching, so I'm actually going to try Busuu right now. Way to keep things honest and transparent, as always.

[@ThatTrueCJ201]

The only grammar guides that really are worth it (in my opinion) is Tae Kim, Cure Dolly, the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar and Nihonkyoshi. Otherwise, what is colloquially know as the Refold approach, is by far the best way to progress in any language (according to the studies posted by linguist Stephen Krashen)

[@vladamirkalashnikov3704]

Thank you for making this video! I have gotten SO MUCH crap for using duolingo, and you have said what I have had as my reasoning for using it (except argued better, with more life experience, know the language better.... etc.). It feels great to have somebody like you pretty much say "yeah, using duolingo isn't bad. It doesn't have to be ALL anki and memorization" for once! And sure, if/when I finish the course I am working on, I do plan to check out other methods of learning (such as learning by playing games in japanese, and checking out japanese websites and chatting).... But I'm just not there. Trust me, I've tried. Not... YET. But I will be. And that little owl bugs me multiple times a day and reminds me that I have goals to work towards, so I appreciate him a lot. Bottom line: if something gets you to study, and gives you SOME knowledge in a way you can grasp and retain: treasure it and use it well. Far better to learn and then refine than it would be to never learn because the "proper" way to too daunting and hard to retain.

[@girl1213]

Me: *reads the title* 🤔What's up Gaijin? Why this title? After video... Me: Huh. Something to think about if nothing else. There's always some way to learn something. I mean, we English speakers don't really talk the same way we write either, so it's not we shouldn't expect Japanese to be any different while speaking. It just takes time, patience, and practice to speak like a native person. These tools are just ways to help the natives understand what we're trying to tell them, even if it sounds like we're a textbook. It really is people just needing to have more patience with second language speakers, no matter what language they speak first.

[@velvetbutterfly]

Honestly this video made me feel proud because I understood the vast differences between the languages. Even as someone who is currently learning Japanese, still rather early, mind you - and dealing with apps doing massive updates that change my progress - I can still kind of grasp both the textbook and nuanced versions. How well I do varies by situation, and I won't say I grasp either incredibly well, I'm sure others can grasp it easier than I, but I at least grasp both to a similar degree and that degree is above being awful at it.

[@alemirdikson]

Duolingo taught me hiragana, katakana, and basic grammar. The service isn't perfect, but it's excellent for establishing the very basics of a language and providing a setpoint going forward.

[@h0shidont35]

I really appreciate these sorts of videos. It feels like you know really well how to instruct people, and it shines through here. It's a well done video!

[@TogashiJack]

I agree 100% with the points made in this video, as someone who is also learning Japanese. A lot of colloquial Japanese involves linguistic shorthand, and it is important to get a more stable, formal, structured understanding before you can progress. You need to be able to stand before you can walk, and you need to be able to walk before you can run. Same thing with language. (also contractions are hard)

[@NezuChan]

I grew up with and learned French at a young age, but some of the nuance of the language still is a bit tricky for me. One thing that I find a bit similar to Japanese is when talking about a person's job. In English we say "He is a teacher." In French, you might think it's "Il est un enseignant" but that is actually gramatically incorrect. You drop the article so it becomes "Il est enseignant." It's so odd from an English perspective because directly translated it's "He is teacher." That's how I was taught in my country, so I'm not entirely sure if it changes between dialects, but I think it's a standardised rule. It took me some time to wrap my head around it. Also, dropping negatives in speech, but not in writing. I always tend to drop my negatives when I speak French and it embarrasses me to no end even though meaning can be typically understood. In writing you have no excuse not to put them and it's just sloppy to omit. For example: "Je ne peux pas" I will speak it as "Je peux pas." Sorry for the wall of text. Languages are cool.

[@swiftstorm661]

Actually this kinda reminds me of ASL which is what Im currently learning as a second language. The difference between what textbooks, classes, or other methods of learning will teach you and what you actually use in practice are entirely different, though it isn't culturally based like Japanese, Rather a lot of words end up not being actively said because they are implied, simply because the language would be considerably more tiring, slow, and so on if it were constantly 100% grammatically correct like the textbooks will teach it. A lot of common phrases like "how are you" will drop words like "are" because it isn't necessary to get the point across. But still it is necessary to learn all of the general basics for any language before learning any of the general nuances or rules within the context of actual use, and it should be inherently understood that a new speaker should learn by the book before learning general more context sensitive things. Lovely video! I was genuinely interested in learning about that bit of nuance within the Japanese language.

[@Merdragoon]

I totally agree with you that sometimes learning the "textbook" way helps a lot for the foundation, so you can then learn the dos and don't when you go the next level of the sublties. All three of my German teachers (one in high school, and two in collage) understood this and they explained both the sublties, but emphised that learning the textbook way was just for us to *understand* the formal so we can slowly learn the "informal" and how the native speaker would talk within the daily life and when to use the formal and when not to use the formal. To put it in a different metaphor: You need to know the basics of art (Line, shape, color, and space) in order to then expand upon. You need to learn how to draw the human body within *shapes* in order to make a drawing of David complaiting. It takes a lot to unlearn what you already understood for years as what you saw. Like wise, you need the textbook version to help you unlearn the habits you would do within your own language to then apply the reasoning and understanding of why the native speaker would pull away from the formal. (Boy does it become weird when reading an Art History book written in German which was written in the 1980s. It doesn't follow textbook German NOR Informal German... it's a whole other trip to try to understand because Scholarly. Me and my stubborn ass thought it would be great to use said German art history book for a freaken Thesis paper.... when I only had German 1 and 2 collage level under my belt. I regretted it because it took me hours, but I did learn! In a very weird way..... I can only imagine how weird Japanese Art History Books would be like if I could read them.) Point is, I think the Content creators you're speaking about may not fully understand that they would be doing the same thing with English or any other language that isn't their own. It almost feels like they're kinda Isolated in how the world of learning languages works? I donno.

[@LionLostInTime]

im a self teaching adult trying to learn japanese and even though ive been studying for atleast half a year i still feel like a beginner when it comes to japanese, which sometimes leaves me with some sense of guilt of me not trying enough, something ive never really realised until this video was that i should set these nuances out of my head, for example: i once came across a video that said ''anata'' is rude and should be avoided, and that's what i tried doing while still learning and it made things a bit more confusing. my studies have been really on and off because of how incredibly overwhelming it can be and without anyone to talk to it can be demotivating at times, but this year i wanna go full throttle at it again, incredible video GG, loved how passionate you were about the subject. hope u feel better soon and always looking forward to your content!

[@mattwo7]

10:31 I wonder if Yoda still uses reverse syntax in the Japanese dubs of Star Wars?

[@Rutanachan]

I'm German and English is my second language. Nowadays, I'm fluent in English and spend half of my time listening to, reading, writing or speaking English - Maybe even more. I started with English lessons in school, and they were absolutely horrible. We focused on British English and it was a draaag. I wasn't even good in the class. But then I started to communicate online with my bare-minimum of English, and got better. I then went to watching English videos of Reviewers and KZbinrs, and that's what really propelled me forward. Heck, I play DnD in English every week XD So really, it was the Internet that taught me English - but I could never start to learn this way if I didn't had the very basic teaching at school. You need a foundation to then go and truly learn a language. That's why I absolutely think you're right here. Besides, even if it's textbook-Japanese, if you need to talk to a native speaker, they will still understand you and be able to converse with you - and that's important.

[@ironbot2915]

rofl. that Yoda analogy was good. gave me a good chuckle. thanks

[@Kondase]

I enjoyed hearing these points and I kept thinking of training wheels on a bike or “floaties” when first learning to swim. You don’t need those crutches very for very long, and in the case of learning to swim, I took many classes long after abandoning the floaties in order to improve my swimming abilities and learn all the different styles.

[@pyra4eva]

I've had issues learning the specific UK dialect of where my fiance lives. People have usually used fairly "textbook" English with me and I usually do back to them but when I'm talking with him or his family, we get a little casual and hilarity ensues. Fun story time: I was in the kitchen and his stepdad asked me "Oh, you using the hob?" Now, I'm from the US, specifically Massachusetts, though I've lived a few different places in America. My brain went full country and the words "do wha now?" spilled out my mouth. After about 30seconds of us staring at each other like we were waiting for the body snatcher to try to escape, he said it again, "The hob. Are you using the hob?" And I'm so confused so I ask "What the heck is a 'hob'?" He was shocked "Oh, you don't call it a hob?" I have no clue what 'it' is so I reply, "I have never heard that word a day in my life." He kinda chuckled and suggested I try to guess. I pointed at all the things. He even gave me clues, "It gets hot." I'm pointing from the sink to the kettle and finally get to the stove as he's telling me if I'm hot or cold. I finally figure out what the 'hob' is and I reply, "Oh, you mean the 'burner'." And he looked dumbfounded with a confused, "A what?" That's not even getting into crazier stuff like Cockney rhyming. That's just a word and not whole phrases or slang terms that people can't explain because "everyone just knows". This is also why we learn formal forms of languages by the way. Had an English teacher have to remind people that you need a common jumping off point in order to even talk to people that speak the same language as you. So I don't see anything wrong with learning the basic textbook way of speaking a language because you have no clue what slang they use and if it's even still viable. Once you have a strong base, you can branch out, especially since you have to develop an 'ear' for the language and dialect before you even think to delve into the various accents that accompany that language. My fiance has issues occasionally when he visits the states where people can't understand him because of his accent, even though it isn't that thick. I've also seen it with my Puerto Rican dad talking to my friends and my friends telling me how they had no clue what he was saying even though my dad spoke English. I could understand him because I had the 'ear' for his accent which made it easier for me to understand other people with a "Spanish accent". Even though my dad spoke English for 40 years, his accent never went away and people had a hard time understanding him. Honestly, I think people should just be happy that people are trying to communicate, however that may be.

[@Vandita3344]

I do agree with you, as a new Japanse learner. I got confused many times, but having people tell me what is right and wrong way to say things really helps to

[@Samuel_1802]

Excellent video, definitely an instant favorite for me. Being a native Spanish speaker and fluent in English, I can see so many of these little nuances between the languages even if the differences compared to Japanese are not as extreme. Spanish is a complex language, and I wouldn't really fault someone for sounding a little unnatural if they're not a native speaker. I saw another comment mention something similar, for example, we also drop the subject a lot in Spanish depending on the context, such as it being inferred from a verb's conjugation. It's grammatically correct to mention the subject explicitly but typically you won't see a native speaker doing this, that doesn't really invalidate the former way of speaking though. These stepping stones in learning lanaguages are inportant, especially at older ages as you mentioned, the average student *needs* a way to break down the language to its basics to get a fundamental understanding before going on the deep end with it. This is a topic that personally hit close to home for me, as I want to be able to speak 4 languages sometime in the future as a mid to long term life goal. Already got English down, got German on the radar and have learned a little bit of the basics, and have been considering Japanese as my 4th option. This video was even a little inspirational to push towards this goal, keep up the good work Gaijin!

[@deathangellink]

i think i got a good idea about what you were saying : i am french canadian, so by saying that you would think that i speak french, so yeah..........in a sense. i speak quebec french, which is FAR from the french used in France. a French and someone from quebec will overall understand each other but there is so much difference in dialect you would not imagine. also i didn't started to learn before my 20' , (yes we learned it in highschool, but i sucked at it ) and had a few class to help me, but i would say 80% of the english i learned was self taught , through movies, music, exchange with locals, videogames etc etc. which made it eclectic but overall people understood what i was saying, but also understood that i spoke french. it was a long journey from the beginning up to today, and i still learn every single days.

[@redjaypictures4528]

As long as we’re chatting about the Japanese language, i’ve had a question for years that i haven’t had answered yet, My understanding is that both the Chinese and Japanese languages use a writing system that has a specific character for each word rather than a string of letters, but since this is the case, how would you type on a computer in that language? Especially since typewriters were invented by a people with a foundationally different writing system,

[@GaijinGoombah]

For me its as easy as punching out the hiragana, then hitting space to bring up a list of possible kanji combinations, then choose the right combination.

[@xinpingdonohoe3978]

For phone keyboards at least, there are two Chinese ways. The first way is a Chinese keyboard that has the QWERTY format. If the Pinyin is riben, you type riben then select 日本. It gives you choices because there are multiple that share Pinyin, but it's sort of AI based so the first option will probably be both ri=日 and ben=本. An example of the same Pinyin is typing ma and choosing between 马 and 麻. The other way is just a blank keyboard thing that just lets you draw the character. That's far less popular, but you still see it occasionally.

[@nanoff815]

I add chinese to my keyboard. I type ni hao and it gives me 你好. I type wanan(goodnight with no spacing or tones) and it gives me 晚安.

[@someone-you-do-not-know8522]

Actually, THANK YOU for saying this, Gaijin Goombah, it needed to be said. I personally dislike tiktokers and KZbinrs who basically gatekeep their language by setting the bar high, putting a price tag on it, and call ways of learning languages wrong. As someone who has received formal language education for eight different language (I don't claim to be good at any except English and my mother tongue), and only learned one growing up, videos like "Using anata is rude", "Don't use konnichiwa", etc. seem like they come from someone who never had to learn a second language in school.

[@SableGear]

Your point around 17:00 really sums it up, "Textbook [language], isn't [language]." The language we "learn," even if it's our first/native language, isn't the same as the language we "acquire" organically through usage and conversation. When you're a child immersed in your native language, what you learn in school is only the textbook, "technically correct" form of the language, even if that's not what you're speaking, which is what is acquired. Intro tools are teaching this textbook "technically correct" version because they are starting you from zero. Once you learn the technical rules, then you can begin to break them in the conversational ways a native speaker would. But because as an adult learner you really can't "learn" AND "acquire" at the same time like a child can, the best place to start is with what's technically correct, THEN once you know the rules and usage you can loosen up. Learning anything is like this; move slowly and learn the basic technique, then speed up and smooth out the practice. (Consider; just about every post I've seen appended "sorry for my bad English" reads totally fine, if a bit stiff, because they're non-native speakers who have been taught the technical version of English. But because they're still learning, they assume it's "bad" because it doesn't have the same ease and context as a native speaker would, even though it's totally readable.)

[@chinpokomon]

I think a lot of people are confusing between "teaching the basics" and "teaching wrong" - when I first heard of dulingo it was the "go to" app for languages but now it's like a meme to dunk on it and that's because people don't understand that first you need to learn to read and write the language as it and only after that you can start learning nuances, shorting, slang etc, that's step 3 but in order to learn a language the right way you'll need the basics or you'll get lost

[@Elfos64]

I remember a similar issue when I was learning German. I wrote a paper for an assignment that my teacher said was technically grammatically correct but written in a really bland monotonous way. It's the kind of thing the job of writing editor exists for- but not the kind of thing a non-native speaker would know how to pick up unless very experienced, nor the kind of thing a language teaching tool would teach, or know how to teach. Trying to teach that would be like teaching negative numbers and irrational numbers to Elementary schoolers who are just learning basic multiplication and division.

[@lvlupproductions2480]

I haven't watched the video yet just saw the title and thumbnail. My two cents on the matter (I might edit after watching) is that these apps are amazing at getting people started in learning the language, the gamification makes it super easy to come back everyday and learn a tiny bit especially for beginning things like learning hiragana and katakana. Of course, they do tend to falter in conversing subtleties of the language in favour of making it feel like the person's native language (typically English). Those little hits of dopamine that these apps create can indeed keep up your passion for learning your language, I think the main important thing to stress with any of these apps is that you can't JUST use one or multiple of these and expect to learn the language these are great gateway apps into learning the ins and outs of language aquisition, eventually you should probably invest in a SRS system such as Kitsun or WaniKani or for free (unless you're on IOS) Anki, you should keep up immersion above most else, as well as probably most importantly learning grammar. Time to watch the video xp.

[@GhostKitten69]

imo the best way to teach anyone anything is to make it accessible. Bumbling your way through stiff, awkward, textbook-sounding conversational skills is probably still better than being intimidated by an overly long list of rules and giving up before you can ever actually talk to anyone in your language of choice. I kinda want to know what about English your students in Japan struggled with, especially for cultural reasons.

[@NerdyTransformed]

I appreciate you both giving your perspective, and pushing that neither side is completely right or wrong.

[@kanchi21]

been trying to learn Japanese for the betterment of 22 years and the biggest hurdle that's been holding me back is not having friends to learn and practice with

[@southcoastinventors6583]

Well here are 3 KZbin channels that could help you out. First is Game Gengo which teaches Japanese through video game, second is Tokyo Scramble which teaches Japanese with Manga and third Tokini Andy teaches Japanese through the popular Textbook Genki but with lot of example sentences. Good luck

[@La4geas]

My pronounciation most likely isn't very good, but hiring a Japanese teacher helped a lot. If you want to practice, VR Chat is a free social "game" that is available to play on desktop, in which you can speak to strangers all over the world. You'll might find Japanese people in the Japan Shrine world, but if you've got decent Japanese and some landmark/geographical sense of Japan, you can enter the JP Tutorial world to find Japanese people more reliably(at the very least, you'll find people that speak decent Japanese).

[@southcoastinventors6583]

@@La4geas Discord is also a good place for free instruction.

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@southcoastinventors6583 sure if you find someone that is interested in teaching

[@southcoastinventors6583]

@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Or language exchange were you split the time between Japanese and English.

[@boofruit]

I agree with your point. But as someone who used doulingo for three years to study Japanese, I wish I had spent a lot less time there. It's served as a good way to get my foot in the door of the language learning process (particularly in getting some kind of habit going). However it served poorly as a base, and it is definitely no replacement for language learning/emersion. I'm convinced the best and perhaps only way to learn a language is to listen/read/emerse yourself in said language. When you understand enough of the surrounding words or context of the scene, words will start to click in place and you'll inherently learn how to use and understand the language more and more. I'm not saying classes, textbooks, and programs aren't useful, they absolutely can be. But the basis of any language learning must always be emersion (else you'll never really learn much of anything). Ideally to learn a language you go to where its spoken and force yourself into emersion of it all the time, while also having friends to speak to help fix gaps in your knowledge. But if that's out of reach the next best thing is youtube, tv, and comics; What ever level you're at if that's your situation, my biggest recommendation Is spend most of your study time watching or reading your target language only with subtitles in that language (when watching); and at level appropriate to your understanding. As beginner that means whatching show for babies (it will absolutely be worth it), but you'll also need to memorize/learn to read the languages characters. Also worth noting it's worth finding a tutor or someplace to speak with native level speakers and make friends. Busuu seems much more promising than doulingo, for sure though. Maybe I'll check it out sometime. But I'm already in the middle of a kanji course, and hopefully by the end of that I have made it to Japan, but who knows...😔

[@T.K.Fischer]

Gotta crawl before you walk, gotta walk before you run

[@WarmLillie]

While I was helping someone understand English in my friend group, and even with me after typing in the comments. I speak alot in incomplete sentences and type. I don’t follow the textbook. I am human. Also thankful that I live in the US because I always say stuff so casually. I call my Professor with Mr and Ms. I gave them alot of advice that’s a mix of my life, the nuances and textbook it help them understand and get a grasp too I’m lucky they had the mindset, I agree there need to be a bridge in order to cross.

[@mattdanc]

Gotta love the Goom Guy's passion. It's infectious.

[@darkwolfoflight6753]

An analogy that comes to mind is the beginning of language courses are like wearing floaties and doing doggy paddles when you begin learning to swim in the shallow end of a pool before you venture into the deep end to do more advanced swimming forms

[@pheonixfireblazer]

No language is spoke in the way it's presented in a textbook on a daily basis. As somebody from North Yorkshire I can tell you the way me and my mates speak will definitely not be found in a textbook. As part of my MA in Creative Writing I read this handy little book called The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. Great guide on textbook grammar as well as how to bend and break the rules of grammar and it teaches a lesson I think is useful for learning any language. Learn the textbook so you can learn the language so you can begin to learn how to really speak it when you start using it. As another example a lot of people say your driving test teaches you how a car works but it's not until after that you really learn to drive.

[@mythking541]

I've been using Duolingo for a while. It's interesting that they subtly drop the subject in the early stage. It's as if they slowly work our way to being advance speakers later on. Plus English is a weird language. A video by MalsWrld making fun of how English pronounce the spelling, how it's counter to what we see. Now take someone who grew up on that, or someone who didn't, and make them learn the opposite right off the back. That's like telling a computer scientist to be a manager without having them be around people like that.

[@Nordlo081]

i rarely leaves comments but I think this might be interresting. I also think that learning a new language without all the nuances at first is actualy good because even if you sound weird to natives speakers, you can still communicate. I'm a french speaking canadian who often have to deal with english natives who struggle with french because of the more complex rules of grammar and what not. Yeah they will sound weird and unatural, but I'll be able to understand them without needing to play a game of mime.

[@CrasherLIX]

I feel that this happens with every language. When I had to learn english to come to the US, I remember my sentences were really stiff and unnatural. It took me about 2 years of talking around my peers to finally catch the subtle nuances of the language, and I was 15-16.

[@nobafan7515]

I think another good example is romani. Learning hiragana will feel overwhelming right away, so romancing japanese helps beginners, and is only an issue later on since kanji requires both hiragana and katakana (depending on which of the two get chosen).

[@Apophis324]

Happy New Year mister Goombah! Thank you for having an opinion and giving your.. perspective ^ -^

[@Leron...]

I agree that it's so much easier to learn the "rules" of formality and then strip away the superfluous components that separate the formal from the casual. As with all languages, you can sometimes help illuminate your point by describing it in terms of math: The critical argument is essentially "Why would you teach someone to write 'x+x+x+x+x'? It makes so much more sense to teach them to write '5x' or 'x • 5' because that's how anyone fluent in math actually communicates that notion." The supporting argument is essentially: "Because the person you're teaching doesn't actually know math. They know how to count on their fingers and they understand that the written symbol represents a specific quantity, but in order to understand multiplication, one must first inherently understand addition."

[@Alexander-rk4cu]

So a kinda in conclusion: we need textbook learning, so we have a solid starting point, to learning the real/nuanced version of the language. Greate video Gajin, thanks for it. Specialy from some one learning japanes via duo and was kinda being dishearted by all the nitpicking. :-)

[@ThePanchEffect]

I still remember the weird muddy of the minna no nihongo, but hey still, it works for begginers. knowing how it was made and not improved, its pretty okay. Our teacher used to rearrange chapters and add from other books just to make it work, cause we are not corporates working with salarymans

[@DaGamingSommelier]

The funny thing is when this was posted; I just saw it yesterday, I started using Duolingo. Now I just started using it, so I'm very new to the program. So far, in my current experience with Duo is that it teaches the common way of speaking and not the textbook way of speaking. Now I could be wrong, having only just started using it within the last 10 days and no prior experience with the program and its previous versions.

[@Im-BAD-at-satire]

10:41 In extremely rare cases this has happened in the US I learned, it's anecdotal but to all the people who worked there they confirmed it to be the case. At Popeyes many people have been fired for saying 'no problem' after they finished their customers order, they're trained to say something other that I forgot, maybe they where intended to say 'It's my pleasure ' or something like that and when you don't you will get fired. It's definitely a recent albeit very small phenomenon in our culture that's the exception and not the rule so time will tell if something like that would ever get adopted here in the west to any capacity, it's difficult to say on that front.

[@justright_]

I love this channel and i started to get interested in japanese culture because of you gaijin goombah. Now im studying japanese using busuu because i saw them sponsor one of your videos. Really helpful. Thank you man!

[@Rainears129]

So I studied French on and off for the past 20 years (I'm actually not that old, but I've taken years off and my elementary school did not have a good French program), and yeah, even in French, which is closely related to English and thinks similar to English, I started with textbook speaking before going into more casual speech. You have to know the rules before you learn when/how to break them. With your native language, you learn the rules intuitively, to the point that you can often feel when someone breaks them (try and have someone say multiple adjectives in a different order, for example). But for someone who is learning it as a second language, they need to be taught the rules first. Honestly, the best way to learn a language is to literally be dropped off in a country that speaks that language and tell the person to survive. However, not a lot of people are willing to go through with that without at least some foundation. Just let them get that foundation and build some confidence before dropping things.

[@mariosportsmaster7662]

The you distinction in Japanese is a bit like the different "tu"/ "vos" distinction in the different forms of Spanish, also the "tu/ "vous" distinction in French (albeit to a lesser degree) and somewhere in between the two is Portuguese (where is less strict than Spanish yet more strict than French).

[@dragonbretheren]

I agree. Formal learning sources should teach formal first (in any language). It is more important for a new learner of any language to be able to convey the ideas they need/want to, even if it's very stiff rather than expect them to sound "native" first. Once the learner gets invested enough, they will start to immerse themselves in the language naturally and pick up the native/casual gimmicks of the language through that immersion. As a personal anecdote, I was taught textbook Japanese in High School. One of the first lessons was the formal structure "Hajimemashite. Watashi wa Dragon desu. Douzo yoroshiku onegaishimasu." I know this is the _most_ stiff, _most_ formal way to introduce yourself, but saying this will (1) get the intent across that I am attempting to introduce myself, and (2) relay to the native listener a rough estimate of my level of language aptitude: that I'm learning/studying the language and attempting to form a bridge, but still a relative novice and not to expect too much from my comprehension. From there, I learned the atashi/watashi/boku/ore/etc. "I" breakdowns, which meant I could probably simplify the greeting down to "Boku/Ore wa Dragon desu". I would later learn through listening to anime and Japanese streamers that even the "boku/ore wa" is usually negotiable depending on setting and audience. This all then gives me appropriate contextual background that when I first heard the word "bokutachi" outside of the classroom setting translated as "we", I was able to contextualize "I recognize boku=boyish first person pronoun, which probably means tachi pluralizes the subject pronoun it's attached to, and the full bokutachi probably means 'we (including boyish speaker)'" on my own. From there, I can intuit other structures like "antatachi" would be "(plural) you (from a feminine speaker to one or more listeners of the "you" group that she is on casual terms with)", which is a lot of cultural context to pack into one word relative to just the English "you". But all of that cultural context has to be built upon an initial formal context. If I had initially been taught "antatachi" = "(plural) you (from a feminine speaker to one or more listeners of the "you" group that she is casual with)", my eyes would have glazed over and I would not have understood where all of that () content was coming from. I had to be built up to that point step by step.

[@dragonbretheren]

TL;DR Learning formal language teaches how to "communicate" while learning casual language teaches how to "chat". It's better to form an educational foundation that ensures the learner can "communicate" first, and if they want to "chat", they can pick it up on their own with that strongly built foundation.

[@keyoteamendelbar8742]

Myself, I use Babbel for language learning. Although, I am not learning Japanese at this time, it's Spanish. The first time I tried using Spanish on my mom, it transformed into a running gag.

[@SuperEasywalker]

Given how I suffer from anxiety and also autistic when it with information overload both from external and internal sources that I either find it different to make simple decisions or outright be confused/zone-out.