Why World of Warcraft Has Become Toxic

[@madseasonshow]

Get 20% OFF + Free International Shipping @Manscaped with promo code MSS20 at Manscaped.com/mss20! #manscapedpartner WoW(and many other mmos) have been described as toxic, but often without explanation. In this video, we analyze the reasons why.

[@greatgameplayswalkthroughs660]

Pls, try "Guild Wars 2" where the end game is Helping the other players (especially helping the newbies) - you get achievements and mastery points when helping the others (also, a lot of exploration, a lot).

[@pixelricebowl]

Get that bag man, you deserve it

[@xpCarlo36]

These need to be spread >> BLIZZARD US FORUMS: Guild Banks got wiped, 2.5K replies. Only 1 Blue Post guild-bank-missing-items-what-happened/1918643 guild-bank-missing-items-update/1963451/1

[@NotYourEcho]

Over time as a game dies with the mainstream audience, it progressively reduces down (largely) to people that are title (ex: World of Warcraft) "lifers". As the term indicates, "lifers" are people substituting elements of real life with their attachment, time and efforts in that game. Because of that, their perception of its importance (and how serious they take it) spirals into the unhealthy...and thus they treat people that take it less seriously like garbage. I do want to note that this isnt always the case, those people will always be present, but its about the % of those players within the remaining patronage. I think WoWs ENOURMOUS success and thus degree (and duration) of heavy development, better allowed it to serve as a life substitute because of how many time sink options were poured into the game. Because of this WoW has a high population of "lifers" that have poured too much of their actual lives into the game for a decade and running....and this is why people with a normal perception of gaming (both in WoW and patrons from other MMOs) see the WoW player base as "toxic".

[@ZennExile]

"become toxic"? Ok newFriend. Nice copyPasta. Welcome to 2008. How about come up with some new descriptors and stop calling everything toxic for shock value? I get that like every new generation is discovering the world again, but yall need to stop assuming you got anywhere first. You didn't. You couldn't. These are modern industrial products. There's nothing new happening. They are just reselling the same crap over and over because they know that you kids aren't being taught there was a whole world that existed before you got here.

[@mikfhan]

Remember to take things in moderation, even World of Warcraft.

[@Grubnar]

"Everything in moderation ... including moderation!"

[@Williosx]

miss those loading screen tip

[@JimBz84]

Haha I remember that one well 😂

[@Psyches7]

Lol that really goes to show how popular wow was and how addicted some people were, that the devs actually had to warn players not to play it too much.😂

[@Mouseman4321]

Even ballshaving!

[@Jumbleman5]

Because somewhere along the line, just having fun in a game wasn't enough any more. It became about winning or earning as much as possible.

[@Sinner_0078]

just depends on the company ur keeping gotta find ur actual friends

[@Knight-Time_Smoke]

And now it’s about getting paid IRL. Particularly games with major focus on pvp for progression. Imo.

[@julien1]

Correct ...! But ironically there is NOTHING to win, I could understand if there was a million dollars on the line for the first guild to complete so and so raid etc.. but unless you enter your guild into the comptetive side of gameplay, there should be no heroic level or mythic level just one level that everyone takes part in. Of course the corperate mentality is to keep people logged in so 20 heroic keys -- 20 mythic keys etc etc its such a fucking con and massively lazy development, same content over and over.

[@Jumbleman5]

@@julien1 The loot is what you're winning.

[@ich3730]

@@julien1 Difficulty options were not invented by Blizzard my guy. Having "easy" and "hard" difficulties is not a corporate conspiracy xD

[@skrabio]

WoW is the video game equivalent of an entry level job application requiring 5 years of experience.

[@LucifeRxGoSu]

Nobody is requiring 5 years of experience for entry level content you’re just bad

[@smokedoggxxl]

@@LucifeRxGoSu Thank you for proving the point of this video.

[@sirinstinct4326]

@@LucifeRxGoSu nice job in proving the point with what you just said, "your just bad" is the kind of statements why people do not interact with each other very much and why there are solo players nowadays

[@TeH.j0keR]

​​@@sirinstinct4326 players were in fact demanding 5 years of experience for entry level content. that coupled with the fact that by default you could pretty much expect almost every random player who joins your party to stand in fire, pull random agro, not have any idea how to drop agro, etc, etc...

[@LucifeRxGoSu]

@@sirinstinct4326 this doesnt even make any sense

[@wretchedabyss1394]

4 things 1)Brutal Punishments for failure (Keystone depletion) 2)Overly complicated Class design, increasing Skill Floor + Blinding fast leveling process (token) 3)Overly complicated Encounter design, filled with Mechanic Saturation in anticipation of WeakAuras 4)Damage meters and raid logs prioritized over social engagement and entertainment

[@garroshhellscream594]

I would add a lack of help from the game to learn anything. The tutorial are just teaches you how to clic, fight, and use items and gear. Outside of that, you need strats, addons, optimization, understand complex rotations, talent building, consummables, etc. None of this is explain by the game by any mean, it's up to yourself to find the solution, which is impossible, so you google it. It's not fun to copy and paste builds and just guy what internet told you to buy, but that's how it works. But what's worse is even if you read the strat online, it's not really possible to understand what is going on on a first pull. Add to that that 99% of the game is absurdly easy and then at the very moment NM raids or M+ dungeons starts, the tiniest mistake you do can end in a wipe for the whole party, and you find a wall hard to pass for yourself, but also frustrating for other players because you will probably needs a lot of tries to adjust. The game lack in general genuine interesting middle level challenge.

[@1un4cy]

#1 thing they should be prioritizing, it's been going on for 6 years and it's the worst part about WoW

[@HI-kb2cg]

5)- 50 DKP

[@invitrace9185]

It's also just an intentionally addictive game, random variable conditioning via loot, artificial sense of status, these things make it fun but also they're created to work themselves into a dopamine track and the reactions people have of min/maxing - unhealthy stress - poor time management are all signs of addiction

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

@@garroshhellscream594no it doesn’t need this!! You wanna play WOW? Put some effort in yourself, it’s never been a hold your hand game.

[@gingersnaps164]

Remember hanging out in vent, getting drunk, and laughing our asses off at the idiots that wiped us.

[@RealMACGamer]

I remember a mage telling us all in vent during a zg run, "break my poly, I wipe your ass!" I still laugh about that to this day 🤣

[@ltbraca470]

Seems like a dream now but yeah. Those were fun times.

[@lightironmogs]

I'm still here in retail doing that today 😆

[@Pr0vidence555]

I still raidlead drunk and laugh my ass of over idiots that whipe us. Honestly feels like you guys are blinded by nostalgia. Life wasnt really better back then.

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

Vent?? Mumble man, MUMBLE!!!

[@lemonsquidsec]

The original Cataclysm broke me with the community. Those 5-man heroics were something else. Instead of helping people learn their class and guiding them with builds, if you had one talent point out of place or made one mistake, just... Flame and kick. It was really tiresome.

[@WakoDoodle]

Hoo boy I remember that. I tried a goblin tank for the first time (never a tank, only a dps) and I used a guide back then to help me make one. I was invited to a 5-man heroic and then was kicked, I asked why and they said "your talents are wrong" I asked which ones and they went quiet so I moved on. A small while later someone replied asking if I was new; I said yes (new to tanking) and they told me 1 and only 1 talent was in the wrong place and where to move it. So I did. They then told me that the party leader will invite me because they needed a tank badly; the leader whispered me and asked me if I liked to join, I said... no. He asked why since they were desperate and I joined to do it before, I told them "if you're going to kick me for 1 incorrect talent and not tell me; only to invite me because you ran out of options, I'd rather not even do the heroic." He went "lol" (ofc) and then his friend asked why I rejected it and told him the same thing. The guy then later told me they disbanded because the leader was toxic. I wish this was the only time this happened but it happened a lot. So much that I just quit wow until WoD and even when I returned then; I left after legion for the same reasons. It's not fun of someone is screaming at everyone; while making mistakes themselves >.>

[@AzureRoxe]

That was the first time i tanked [on THE worse dungeon for it, forgot the name but it's the one which is now split into like 3 cause it was so massive, thanks dungeon finder] and i got flamed so hard, despite the fact that i wasn't even tanking badly, i simply got lost a few times cause the dungeon was huge and confusing. I didn't tank again for YEARS till i did it in FFXIV.

[@volks86]

Half my server doesn’t speak English makes no attempt to min max or have correct talents. Why? They just gdkp later on, so yes I do kick you at the slightest offense or mistake. Sorry.

[@lemonsquidsec]

@@AzureRoxe Sounds like Blackrock Depths. They really did a number with that one, splitting it into three dungeons with not much/no indicator as to which version you were supposed to be doing. That helped absolutely no one.

[@MysticZefer]

I was kicked out of a war within heroic for not knowing Necrotic Wake from an expansion I barely played. Did we wipe? Nope. Just didn't do a mechanic right. instantly kicked.

[@CubaSmileSauce]

80% of the playerbase trying to emulate streamers does not help.

[@brelshar4968]

Got it twisted, streamers are the ones who don't help.

[@RIPFPSDOUG]

Facts.

[@Dusty_CA]

And this goes for any multiplayer game nowadays. It's only hurting the gaming community as a whole.

[@Noriaela]

Its not 80% though. If a majority of players were trying to emulate streamers then most people wouldn't play games.

[@classiestbogan]

While we are making up stats im going to say 90% of your brain doesn't work.

[@chrism3562]

Many of the toxic players react like junkies when you get between them and their fix. They lash out and push you away. Their fix is gear and rep. If you're not helping them get it quick you're beneath them.

[@Suddennew]

Actually a solid comparison tbh hadnt made the comparison yet

[@JDoeX]

thats me in solo blitz

[@kevin9989]

Very well put. It's exactly what it is.

[@bmw9616]

I've never heard it analyzed like this, but it makes sense.

[@BLUEPELICAN234]

Solid comparison buuuut dota 2 is the game I feel like closer to a drug. The fanbase act like total addicts and angry all the time. Unlike league, dota feels just negative immediately

[@justind44]

one time in amirdrassil, the dream's hope, our team of pugs wiped on Fyrrak (the first wipe of the full clear). three people decided to spam hateful messages about the lower performing members of the raid that did not do exactly what they were supposed to do in order for us all to survive. I said to them all, as raid lead, "Why don't you three stop spewing hateful messages and go ahead and explain to us what we SHOULD be doing please?". They responded with "LEARN THE MECHANICS" and I said "Then tell us the mechanics". One person said "look in the adventure guide" but the other two told us all, step by step, in detail, how to defeat Fyrrak on heroic difficulty and we all killed him on the very next pull. Interesting how some people play this game lol...

[@GraveYardShif7]

That doesn't surprise me. Retail is full of zoomers. You should come to Classic Era with us Boomers on Whitemane. The community is pretty laid back, and helpful. Most of us don't take the game that seriously.

[@dvls2945]

U realize from your description it seems they were right?

[@Akeruyri]

Sounds like you guys learned how to kill the boss from two more knowledgable players, and then proceeded to kill it

[@destrmath]

I've said brb in a ffxiv dungeon before to wait on the loot timer to boot somebody like that. I'd rather have somebody doing 20% of the damage they should be then somebody screaming at that person.

[@THRAKORZOD]

​@GraveYardShif7 the most annoying motherfuckers in retail are military failure boomers who want to role-play the command role they never got

[@01ZombieMoses10]

That last frame with the 2005 versus 2012. That hit me right in the soul. It's why I have no enthusiasm for MMORPGs at all anymore... that time of chaos, discovery and making friends is the entire reason I played MMORPGs. I have zero interest in being the best or even finishing every dungeon or raid. It's about the experience and the people I shared it with.

[@pip5528]

EverQuest's community is largely intact in certain circles such as Project 1999 and Quarm. "Pay it forward" is the mantra over there.

[@smokeyoak]

​@@pip5528 sounds like a much better community. They must actually love their game

[@sendL546]

Its just.. people wanna rush everything these days. they dont wanna play to have fun. they wanna have everything fast as possible. which concludes problems in raids and what not. and some rage

[@heroman1322]

Very true! That’s why focus on small group PvE content with friends and PvP overall for when I’m bored or want to have fun in a battleground! I have also been fortunate to not run into assholes in TWW. I’m probably quitting in a month till another patch, but it’s been great fun!

[@Pholadis]

it's like they're addicted to the gratification, and it's feeding a sense of entitlement

[@AzureRoxe]

And the worse part is that game companies design everything for THEM, so everything is braindead easy, everything is fast and rushed cause no one wants to bother learning. Look at GW2, a game that suffers from this so hard that the game's developers themselves have mentioned how ridiculously low the DPS of the AVERAGE player is compared to a half-decent player.

[@BoisegangGaming]

This "rush culture" permeates everything. Everything must be optimized. You must know exactly what to do even if you've never done something before. It must be done in the most efficient way possible. Anyone who's tried to get a job has probably encountered this where "entry-level" jobs require previous experience. In MMOs, it's for the same reason: because these higher-level, higher-prestige groups don't want to invest the time and energy into teaching or instructing someone new. They want someone *now*. If someone I'd underperforming, kick them. Everyone becomes just a number, expendable, disposable, and replaceable. It's a destructive loop that doesn't benefit anyone. I don't want to say it's part of human nature (or at least it is encouraged and magnifies by these systems) because I want to believe we are better than this. I played World of War craft for a week or two with a friend and my siblings years ago. I remember how the 4 of us were running around dungeons, I was trying to explore things, and the one person obtained through LFG was just complaining what I was doing. Group content just isn't fun in MMOs because it's not cooperative, it's competition having killed cooperation and wearing it's skin.

[@ich3730]

@@AzureRoxe Wait so you complain about companies designing games for people who rush and no-life... but then you want to make fun of players doing low dps on average? Like, the people who rush through story modes and go for early clears of content are not the ones doing low damage xD

[@paganflute3989]

simply said, we dont play games anymore, we work games!

[@nuggyfresh6430]

I’m casual but I come prepared and know how to play so ppl aren’t toxic

[@jimicunningable]

that's pathetic

[@moe3120]

@@nuggyfresh6430 if you have to prep so you dont get yelled at, that just isnt fun, where is the fun in trial and error of having a guildmate give you a tip / trick to avoid certain mechs, hope you find a wholesome group one day

[@furydeath]

But I need some web site to show a purple number next to my name 😢

[@jimicunningable]

@@furydeath I DO love games & gamers furydeath, but we've gone off the leash. It's become more than a bit cringy. This was 'sposed to be fun.

[@petequesada2936]

Been running a leveling guild for over 4 years in Classic. Though we are small and still have a few charter members, the guild is nothing but a home for the most casual players. Several of us are well geared and raid on a regular basis with a sister guild that share our love of having fun. We have three rules #1 - play when you can (no pressure), #2 - have fun, #3 - help when you can. Many are former retail players and insist on doing EVERY quest available while leveling and we run a lot of legacy dungeons for fun when we have the toons logged. Anyway. I find many forget it's a game.

[@bignugg3104]

What server are yall on? Wouldn’t mind joining

[@The_Remage]

@@bignugg3104 Same! I can't find any nice casual guilds, it's mostly raiding ones or m+ ones on classic from what I tried to find

[@tainicon4639]

@@petequesada2936 I love hyper optimized metagaming… but I also love carrying new players and helping them learn how to play… There is something fun about teaching people about the game I love and seeing them have fun figure things out!

[@flpaugusto]

Which server and which guild? I could use some chill vibes

[@moe3120]

what guild and server / faction, i find that classic tends to have some more chiller players due to everyone not being instanced, if i decide to come back to WoW might go classic and give yall a try

[@doctorferdinand1003]

In my experience classic has become far more toxic than retail. In retail you have various options to learn the game and gear up before diving into the elitist world of m+. You can do world quests, spam heroics, then farm t8 delves and get full champion gear without ever encountering a gate keeping toxic player. Classic on the other hand gate keeps the most mindless casual content for no reason. I quit SOD because of how difficult it was to find groups for BFD, I kept getting rejected from groups because of lack of raid logs on a lvl 25. I had orange parses on most encounters in amidrissal but I couldn’t get in groups for lvl 25 content, crazy.

[@velissarothefearless5506]

I met my wife through WoW, we've been married 13 years and have 3 children, I'll always be thankful to WoW for that and it's an activity we still enjoy doing together.

[@RealMACGamer]

That's cool!

[@zerocurve758]

You sir are one of the reasons, I have a love for this game.

[@Maha-gx4zm]

Okay grandpa.

[@Toguse]

I met friends in wow 10 years ago. Travelled across continents to meet, and we are very close friends now. Living in same city

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

Heh same, I met my husband in WOW in 2011, we’ve got 2 kids and are married since 9years. This game will always be the best

[@Auditioneere]

I think people are misremembering the "good ol' days", WoW was always toxic, you just weren't part of the high level players who took the game seriously and they would definitely be toxic to each other. Now that everyone has access to all the info and skill level has been more or less equalized to a certain extent, everyone has ego and is toxic now. But WoW was always toxic, remember all the ninja-looters, griefers, trade chat trollers. There was a guy who was famous on my server who would just sit in trade chat and shit talk 24/7.

[@KineticSymphony]

The toxicity was exclusively found at that top level, which was a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Now, everyone rushes into that end-game, no one does free play anymore, so everyone experiences and becomes part of that toxic swamp.

[@snuffeldjuret]

@@KineticSymphony yeap, I always felt supported as a new player in dungeons.

[@markblaze4909]

griefing is not toxic. thats the best part of the game you can't ninja loot in wow. you can only cry about not getting what you want when you tried to ninja/steal something you didn't win when you don't get it. we laugh at you. trade chat troll? HUH? you mean entertaining conversations? like barrens chat? the best part of wow chat.

[@Auditioneere]

@@markblaze4909 griefing can absolutely be toxic, people would pug into guild raids on their alts to "steal" the guilds lockouts for easy illidan clears or worse take advantage of auto invite features to basically hold a lockout hostage from guilds trying to prog just so their guild can beat them in server prog. That was very real things that happened back in the day. People definitely ninjaed loot just outright. Sometimes just straight from their guild waiting weeks to just one day take all the loot off the last boss. This was pre loot rules we had today, guilds would often just have free for all because it was easier to hand out loot. And no we're not talking about barrens chat, there was a guy on Firetree named Locks who would ironically just pvp all day and shit talk anyone he beat in trade chat. These things aren't just "lol funny memes", it was obnoxious and often game ruining for a lot of people.

[@Auditioneere]

@@markblaze4909 griefing could be very toxic. Alts would get into guild raids lockouts and steal them for their guild for easy end boss kills or they would take advantage of auto inv features and hold raid Ids hostage so they could beat that guild in server prog. This was very real things that happened. And way back in the day master loot function was straight up broken so sometimes you'd lose loot if you used master looter. So a lot of guilds would free for all loot because that's how EverQuest worked. But people would straight up just steal all the loot. And nah it wasn't barrens chat stuff this guy would just sit in trade and pvp and talk crap 24/7. These things aren't lolfunny, they were obnoxious and would often make the game unplayable for people.

[@HexHunter99]

In TBC, I ran a dwarf hunter with a pet crab. Groups I joined were at awe and cheered for little Krabbie to go. Even did some raids with him. It was amazing experience.

[@kyeema-of-the-shadows]

original TBC not the classic copy you could still do competitive dps with a plainstrider as a hunter all good times

[@FMxEagle]

@@kyeema-of-the-shadows Friend of mine kept his first tamed plainstrider he caught in mulgore during vanilla all through to level 70 in TBC, never tamed another pet. Those were the days.

[@kyeema-of-the-shadows]

@@FMxEagle In the early days people would give your plain strider the /cheer emote now it would be you have been kicked by the group

[@michiel7716]

😂

[@Jenartik]

wow you were so le quirky and random xD *holds up spork*

[@haunted5311]

We definitely don't have enough "free play" nowadays. Too many tryhard sweats scoffing at the idea of spending any amount of time "doing something fun" instead of constantly grinding and getting gear/collectables/gold in the most efficient way possible 100% of the time. Then the said sweats complain about the game being boring once they got everything they wanted to get. They completely forgot the fun aspect of gaming and it's really sad.

[@BIacklce]

What if I told you some people enjoy finding efficient loops

[@matthewlawton9241]

@@BIacklce Then an RPG is probably not the genre for you.

[@BIacklce]

@matthewlawton9241 mmo is all about finding efficient loops and linear progression. Lmao what game are you playing.

[@ich3730]

@@matthewlawton9241 RPG's were literally INVENTED by nerds who love efficiency

[@denmarkball7728]

You're bring ridiculous in assuming those things aren't fun to those people

[@Klinday_]

Its not WoW that gotten Toxic Its the World itself

[@theghoulshow]

true

[@ottopotomas]

BECOME toxic? people literally trolled a funeral in game back in the day!!

[@Sanjiluv]

thats not toxic. That's hilarious. Toxic would have been showing up to the persons ACTUAL funeral.

[@ginosalazar7391]

The real Warcraft was the friends we made along the way

[@robinenbernhard]

Stil is

[@hwi6913]

Never made one real friend in an online game.

[@MrBeeMeR320D]

True! I am Belgian and made friends all over Europe. I even went to a guild BBQ in Norway and stayed for a week at the guildleader's house.

[@sonja2213]

thrash player

[@sonja2213]

@@MrBeeMeR320D did you stab someone in the back as your ancestors did?

[@txnafish]

it's always been about the feeling of superiority, a lot of people nowadays in general have an inflated sense of grandiosity but especially in competitive spaces a lot of people want to put others down for the sake of sating said feeling of grandiosity. it's kinda sad honestly, sometimes certain people forget that the people they are shitting on have feelings too

[@fergin4979]

Yea I see this a lot in league of legends too, its as if people only play the game to insult other people’s performance

[@blackjacka.5097]

That's what happens when there's nothing going on with their actual lives

[@nuggyfresh6430]

A lot of people just enjoy challenging content but you’re so mad that you just made up the motivations of the people who upset you, which is childish

[@j.a.1785]

​@@nuggyfresh6430guys, I found the guy you're talking about!

[@Noriaela]

Nowadays? This isn't a new concept. People have been doing this and having a sense of superiority since the dawn of time.

[@Knight-Time_Smoke]

Tanking in any MMO is a risky venture for your enjoyment.

[@Eas_Planeswalker]

I tanked in every mmo l played over the past 25y ...except in WoW 😆

[@maxb2244]

I loved tanking. I quit back in Legion as a feral druid and was having a blast, however, I NEVER tanked for random. Too many DPS think they get to dictate the pace of dungeons.

[@tainicon4639]

I play classic wow… I can’t imagine not tanking. I need to position mobs for my own ocd haha Also I rarely have dps being assholes to me. Most are too afraid I will leave and they will need to spend like 9 hours finding another tank haha

[@wcjerky]

@@tainicon4639 Underrated comment.

[@tainicon4639]

@@wcjerky tanks get away with a lot haha Most people are so afraid to do it that they let even the shit tanks slide because “at least they were willing to tank…” I swear I once had a pug Paladin tank in wrath who was using common level tbc agi gems… no one dared point out this was kinda completely unhinged haha If there are only 5 tanks online… can’t risk offending one haha

[@xBelamir--]

Been playing single player project, even the bots are coded to be say 20% toxic. Which is hilarious.

[@WhyOhWhyPhi]

Storytime (because where else can I tell it?) A handful of expansions back I was in a progression guild. Very nice people, laid back, and they let me tag along with them anyway because I made them laugh in Vent. Keep in mind I've never been a great player, and have massive social anxiety, but I felt comfortable with them enough to be absurd, and be the class clown. It was great. Just an amazing time to play. We get to the end of the expansion, and I said I was going to take a break (as I usually did back then) to let myself recharge before the new xpac hit. I come back for the pre-patch, and I didn't have a guild anymore. I messaged the guild leader, and they told me they had moved realms because they wanted to get into more of a hardcore raiding scene. Nothing personal. I didn't protest, I said I understood. I sat there staring at my screen for what felt like forever. Call me a snowflake, or sensitive, but that broke my heart. I get it's only a game, but these were people I considered friends. Countless memories, and fun times had wiping to bosses, trying again, getting 2% farther, then wiping, trying again, and again, and again. Hanging out in Vent just for the hell of it to chat, being excited to log in after work. All of that gone because I wasn't good enough to make the cut. I kept playing solo, but I was on auto-pilot at that point. Then WoW Classic hit. I had a blast leveling in that since I missed the boat on Vanilla just barely, and I love me a grindy game, and wanted to experience what WoW "was like". I got into a raiding guild again, which started as casual, and quickly became more hardcore as the guild leader realized he could abuse the raid system (I forget what one they used maybe GDKP) and bring on more 'whales' that would help carry him in raids. He was a notoriously bad player, but used his status as leader to intimidate and bully people. The bigger the guild got, the worse he got. One night we were running MC and he starts going off on me in voice chat. Granted by this point I had reverted to the quiet, and shy "just happy to be here" guy, and he starts reaming me a new one for pulling the boss. I didn't. The hunter that accidentally pulled owned up to it, but the GL wasn't hearing any of it and it was just the definition of being smacked in the face with that toxic mentality. I was kicked from the guild seconds later. All of my alts kicked. The abuse became daily after that. Messages, whispers, public chat, just the worst as I became this weird pariah. I wasn't the only one. If the guild leader decided he didn't like you you were toast on that realm. His guild had grown too influential. I tried to tough it out, ignore it. Two weeks later I paid to move realms. The only time in the history of WoW I paid for that service. I started over. Made a rogue. Just played solo, but it wasn't the same. It never has been honestly. I still play, but I don't try and do any group content past LFR/LFG. I've been invited to guilds, I'll join, they ask me to come into Discord to talk, and I freeze up. I end up leaving the guilds, because that's been ruined for me. I haven't even dared to touch raiding, or anything like Mythic+ because good lord.... And again I know I'm too sensitive, and I shouldn't let any of it bother me, but it's just crazy how a simple game can help boost your confidence and self-worth, and then take it all away from you and then some. I do wonder if that mythical 'nice guild' is out there for casual 'git gud noob' people like me. Solo, however, has been the safest way to play.

[@kibble-net]

WoW: $4000 to play for 20 years Magic The Gathering: $4000 to play for 1 year Both are toxic in their own special way!

[@ich3730]

What are you talking about? You realize that magic cards dont decompose after a year? xDD Im playing with cards i bought like 20 years ago to this day.

[@procyonia3654]

*laughing in 40k*

[@dmtaboo_truth7052]

@@procyonia3654 😂😂

[@jimicunningable]

..absolute waste of life and $!!!! Imagine if we had put all this effort into something like a band, instrument, night school, etc. It's just F absurd.

[@procyonia3654]

@@jimicunningable hardly a waste if you created memories and had a good time doing it at the time.

[@mentalmadness9783]

Everything in life feels like instrumental play when you get older. Some times when I use my mirrorless camera I feel like I should try to make it a side hustle so I try to portray my photos in ways that I think would suit any future customer. This has made me think that I don't like photography anymore. But as soon as I try to "Free play" it starts to get fun again. It's the same with the dancing that I enjoy, I want it to have some basic rules so everyone that is doing the dance know the expectations. One day I decided that I should join a competition and sooner than later I was a competitive dancer and every training was focused on trying to please the judges. I was starting to dislike the dancing, so I took a step back, quit all competitions and now I just dance for fun again. Somethings are just not meant to be taken too seriously. Even the most fun and passionate hobby you might have can easily turn into a side hustle or even your main job which can easily kill your passion.

[@vanyel_etc8695]

Yep, what wow really needs is young gamers again. Gamers who are 1. Better than you and 2. Completely suboptimal because they have different priorities than you do. It's all the old dogs who are so grumpy. They're complicating life so much.

[@candlestyx8517]

The drive in others to try and monetize absolutely everything just highlights our societies obsession with money

[@kozmo7]

From someone back in vanilla, I’d argue it’s always been toxic. Now all the friendly regular people left, it’s all just bile

[@baryony]

Maybe. But it was such a big trend many of us actually got to play with people whom we knew from real life. That was a blast. Had an entire guild of people who were almost all from my cousin's highschool.

[@tsjeriAu]

Will watch the video later but yes, all this. I played on a pve server in Vanilla before making a new character on a pvp server in preparation for Burning Crusade to play with some friends, and dear lord the pvp community was toxic as shit. Constant camping of low levels trying to do quests, rogues hiding in cities killing random people just because, dungeons were something else... I did a bunch of pug raids for Gruul (because trinket was amazing for phys dps) throughout the expansion and oh my sweet lord pretty much every single group was toxic as shit if you didn't pot 100% and parsed 90%+. It has always been toxic, just in earlier days there were a lot more friendly people to even it out. Maybe there still are some good people playing, but they mostly just stick to their own communities and don't interact outside of it.

[@nightdruid540]

there are lots of friendly ppl on mg hahaha

[@TransientWitch]

My experience in WoW was always marred by what people would now call toxicity. I've always been an out queer woman...And I can tell you, it is not welcoming to be so in most online spaces and *especially* online games. I've been insulted and threatened in nearly every single way you can think of and probably a few you haven't. I've been excluded strictly on the basis of being a woman. And I've experienced these since I started playing WoW, which was early on in its lifespan. Pinning "toxicity" strictly to competitive play is missing the forest through the trees, because it predates and was bad enough even from the start if you weren't one of the "approved to be in this club house" types, like I was.

[@wcjerky]

For the record, up until Looking for Group, your reputation on the server followed you. You could be toxic, yes, but only for so long, especially as a dps, even worse if you didn't have CC.

[@markblaze4909]

In World of Warcraft-especially on PvP servers-competition is baked into the game, whether it's fighting over resources, tagging mobs, or engaging in PvP battles. The game is designed around conflict and competition, so when someone loses in those situations, it's just part of the experience. People getting upset over it kind of miss the point-these are all mechanics of the game.

[@xalanii]

become? Brother it was toxic from 2004, people were seriously fucked up back then, but the game was new so it was so shiny you didn't notice all the same behaviours

[@Electric_]

Vanilla WoW was difficult to play solo, easy to play in groups. Modern WoW is effortless to play in solo content, and extremely difficult to play in groups. This is a perfect recipe for toxicity. It is the anti-community MMO. The only way you’ll really enjoy WoW is in a guild. I will say retail is a good and fun game, but only in the confines of a good guild.

[@Jaddort]

I don’t disagree with your opening premise, but I only play retail guildless and I prefer it that way. I’m not trying to push the hardest keys or mythic raids because it doesn’t interest me. I do mid keys, delves, LFR, and I have a great time solo. I don’t enjoy having to live up to expectations, meet deadlines, play toons for a group vs what I want to play.. so I tend not to join guilds. But in Classic I have to if I don’t want 4 hour inconsistent raids. And I’m a Classic Andy. But since there is only 1 difficulty level for the most part, I am forced to guild.

[@pkswty]

I can relate. I’m always in a guild and it’s nice because people are generally nice in the guild. I still do almost all solo content but having the guild community is comforting.

[@decodedillusion]

@@Jaddort This what I do also. I play WoW as close to "SSF mode" as possible. I do follower dungeons, delves, LFR, and I am fine with that. I get to see the story and play at my own pace and it's great. I played a lot of Mythic+ back during Legion and I am completely done with that shitshow. You can avoid 99% of the toxic bullshit if you steer clear of the mythic content.

[@Jaddort]

@@decodedillusion I had an M+ last night that people bailed on in a few mins because of 1 wipe and I was left sitting, “this is fun?” I get that it can be.. but give me a dungeon crawl ala TBC any day over timed dungeons. Let us bond over the struggle, not flame people because we aren’t going to time a key. But I do think retail is fun and in a good spot with Delves. I can just dip my toe in M+ and still feel like I’m not wasting my sub

[@doctorferdinand1003]

Delves are a really cool addition to the game. I hope they expand on it and have more challenging end game solo content.

[@AgentOroko]

When Blizzard began designing and turning around the World First Raiders, that's when the game turned worse. They should have never began to ignore the casuals who make up the other 99% of the player base.

[@LucifeRxGoSu]

the game was the most catered towards world first raiders in vanilla/tbc, and it's only gotten more casual friendly with every expansion. just say you dont play wow, or dont know anything about it bro

[@PiliFace]

@@LucifeRxGoSu Classic Andies think that if every single patch isn't catered towards the most casual of players, it's only catered towards the top 0,01%. There's no point in arguing with them about anything Retail related.

[@smashi4088]

well over a thousand if not 2 thousand guilds full of people who are definitely not the best players clear mythic every patch

[@OrchinX]

@@LucifeRxGoSuthis is just a straight up lie. I’ve been playing since original launch

[@minementalx]

​@@LucifeRxGoSu Vanilla was the most casual friendly part of WoW. The biggest part was the leveling experience and that was the foundation of vanilla. Everybody could level and many casuals had enough playing material. Everybody could just explore the world of Azeroth. TBC was a change for sure. Heroics were very hard in comparison to vanilla and the attunement galore was also a big hurdle for many.

[@Lilysongs0]

It should be said that our technology also contributes to a more instrumental play style. Nowadays when a game is releasing, it’s already been datamined to hell so there are no secrets to discover. there are often the most efficient ways to do something and posted online before it even comes out as well.

[@cyanmage1]

and this is why I like ff14 where datamining really isn't a thing until patch day and 99% of the playerbase hates it and prefers to go in blind

[@YugiMomo]

@@cyanmage1 the game facilitates going blind pretty well too I think, there's not too much friction for wiping you just go again and it's fine, the 1% hit to your gear durability is negligible and you don't lose food buffs on death. The Arcadion raids were massacres the first week and they were a joy to heal through all that chaos

[@TheFoodieCutie]

The official server forums back in vanilla had so much drama 🎭 on them that I actually quit the game for a while because I got scared watching how much invested some people were…

[@dirtnapphoto]

I have fond memories of 40 toon runs in Molten Core with a guild, 5 hour runs. Was crazy fun, and we all helped each other and knew our rolls. Wipes were part of the experience. No one was belittled or kicked , mistakes are part of the journey.

[@spectrumsucks1607]

I started playing wow again after about 10 years when the icc raid came out in wrath classic. I started from nothing , and made my way to level 80 and doing heroic raiding. When classic cata classic came out , I hit 85 in 2 days and cleared all the raids the day of release. By the third week of the expansion, i was parsing high and pursuing heroic raiding, I realized how toxic the game was and the time investment needed to play at a high level. I haven’t played since and don’t think I ever will.

[@Wraize1]

private servers are where it's at. left retail after cata, never went back.

[@flankman9385]

@@Wraize1uhh which private server are you expecting such welcoming people? I’ve played on them all.

[@LiliumCruorem]

@@flankman9385i really love Ascension. Feels like playing an alternate timeline of the game where Blizzard made better choices. It’s got a but of a learning curve because it’s classless and they have a custom system of custom enchants that you use to create builds. My favorite build rn is my gold farming Fire Bear. I’m literally a gnome bear AoE blaster and I cause explosions when I hit shit, it’s super fun. They are also following the natural progression of the game on the server I play on. I definitely recommend playing on Area 52 if you do try it out. But you may like the seasonal server yourself. I don’t like the seasonal server cause you don’t get to make a custom build right away, it’s random what spells you get when you level and you have to grind for the abilities and spells you want. But Area 52 is pure freepick. Sunwell Plateau just dropped on the 8th of september, so we are going to WOTLK relatively soon. They have also reverse engineered almost all of the new models and shapeshift skins and they have transmog and many modern amenities that many people like about Retail.

[@saltyfry4328]

@@flankman9385 Turtle WoW is the best, community feels close to the good old days.

[@KingEmesis666]

In Cata classic, GDKP:s are a big part of the negativity and elitism. 70% of PUG raids are GDKP, and the leaders expect almost every single player to be a master at the game, to execute every little thing perfectly, and sometimes know more obscure tactics that are risky.

[@Nickalzz]

These toxic players are the same ones that will pull half the dungeon and get angry cause you can’t keep them alive with 61 mobs hitting them. They’re almost never as good as they think they are.

[@joshw3719]

Vanilla wow Whitemane Era cluster has some of the most elitist, toxic, entitled players I’ve ever met. Literally ruins the game for you.

[@Snaxx_23]

Biggest server of gold buyers too. They complain about bots but where do they think they are buying their gold from? 😂😂

[@RNS_Aurelius]

Lets face it, a large portion of the player base has poor social skills

[@teej143]

It’s not the game. It’s the people

[@sohu86x]

Nah, some games are designed to be anti-toxic. Gw2 for example.

[@sonja2213]

its you that is nobody thrash player

[@lukashuba9818]

Its game not people, playing classic again and feels good

[@teej143]

@@lukashuba9818 lol classic has no toxic people is the most hilarious thing ive heard in the last hour

[@gamingon9956]

@@sohu86x PvP and Raid scene in gw2 is toxic as in every mmo.

[@benellis8844]

Mythic + is the most toxic aspect of the game. Which makes sense because there is such pressure to perform. A timer, limited resource(keys).

[@AbraGaming]

nah pvp will always be the most toxic

[@user-fv7jd4xj5n]

Oh no, a challenge mode is challenging!

[@benellis8844]

@@user-fv7jd4xj5n a challenging mode made for intrinsic value, meaning just for a good challenge, is good. But when a desirable reward is tied to the challenge it loses that value and only becomes an obstacle to overcome for the reward.

[@DA-uo5hz]

I felt it a lot more playing classic/sod. These dudes care for nothing but parses. Some odd dudes flip out in M+ but it's comparatively rare, most just say gg when a run hits a wall or is bricked. Maybe it's less tense in NA though?

[@smashi4088]

@@DA-uo5hzno this is exactly my experience too

[@pousoix]

Players make an easy game hard with undeserved ego and an obsession with doing content as fast as possible so that they don’t need to play the game any longer than they have to. The pervasive mentality that “anyone who is slower than me is wasting my time” is the core of the toxicity, or at least in what Classic has become. 2019 is the best we’ll ever get.

[@markblaze4909]

IF players want to raid log, and ruin their own experience - that's their choice. they can rush to max level, gold buy, boost, cheat and pretend they are good. Their choice. it happens a lot, but i don't consider that "toxic" Even if the fact devs allowing this does ruin the game, but still not "toxic"

[@PlayDohPlatoYT]

I just started playing wow this week for the first time ever(classic). I’ve been enjoying it immensely. It’s the only mmo where people have invited me to group up randomly to complete a quest we were both working on just to make it easier. I’ve been learning about the lore, and becoming increasingly immersed in the world. There will always be shit people in everything, and people who take things too seriously, but I don’t think wow is toxic as a whole. Maybe it gets worse in the higher level stuff, I don’t know yet. All I do know is I’m having the most fun I’ve had with an mmo in years, and every interaction I’ve had with another player has been positive, even when I mess up and fail.

[@ninnoofthelastunicorn]

if you wonder why Yoshida and the gang over at XIV crack down hard on any sort of out of line talk or behavior, this is why. That said, the 'ultra-friendly' player base in XIV becomes something...else.

[@FreqstyleRedux]

They developed their own sense of toxic positivity in response towards not being allowed to openly be toxic or inflammatory. Not to say this is any fault of the devs or the game, but it's the next step of toxicity if you try to ban traditional toxicity. Haters will always find a way to hate.

[@Overdoseplus]

Generally, XIV is not toxic. However, at the very high level it really is even if a lot isn't public. Much of it happens on discord and other means since that won't get you banned there.

[@cattosw5399]

@@Overdoseplus No it's very toxic, it just metastasizes itself outside of direct interaction. Toxic people know how to exploit the system, you cannot tell someone to 'play their role' ie tank or healer or you run the risk of being reported for harassment. You can quite literally troll an entire group (or multiple) for 40+ minutes and nothing will be done to you. People can and do organise harassment outside of the game against players (and even developers) and get away with it with no recourse. WoW can be toxic but FF14 learned how to perfect the vitriol and arguably it kills the interest in the game far quicker than some idiot screaming in party chat in WoW does.

[@ich3730]

@@cattosw5399 Think about it like this: If i upset my DPS in a WoW dungeon, i get called bad and kicked. If i upset my dps in FF14, they will spam report until i get banned.

[@stankobarabata2406]

@@cattosw5399 Closest explanation I can give to this is league of legends. Because Riot cracks down so hard on any negative speech, people just found other ways. First it was spamming ? pings. The ? Ping means missing from lane, but since people got "creative" it started meaning "WTF are you doing?". It wasn't atypical to get pinged that any time you died regardless of circumstances. Miss a skillshot? Ping. Do a play someone doesn't consider right? Many pings. Then they added a bait ping, which had the icon of a fish hook. Can you guess what the community associated it with?... If you answered a fish hook, you're very innocent and should stay away from that game. Because the community collectively accepted it is now a noose, and it became the new ping of choice. Now you had people pinging you with bait pings telling you to keep yourself safe in an indirect manner. And the last tool in the toxic kid's belt, which crosses with another toxic sub-set, the griefers - just feeding so you lose the game. Why even insult you when he can forcibly make you lose and waste your time, and potentially your points? Because if you try to say anything bad nowadays league just auto censors you for the entire match now. So people have stopped talking, but they've begun doing other things to "convey" their thoughts about you. TBH this is mostly a uniquely "big" game problem. Huge games like WoW and LoL attract some of the biggest representations of the "average voter" meme. People so laughably stupid, petty and short-sighted you're amazed this isn't some satire or caricature show, but actual real people.

[@Doomshade]

This really hit home for me. I remember exploring the barrens as a level 7 night elf hunter back in BC, discovering the horde, and realizing that I'm not supposed to interact with them. Then just going all over the place. It was the most fun i've ever had in a game. As I got higher level, and as time passed, I stopped having fun. It's hard to explore when everything is explored. The raids and dungeons required hours of running the same content, over and over, until eventually, you can quote every line from every npc in every dungeon. It became an obligation to show up for raids, a requirement to participate in dungeons, and for every victory, there was countless losses. Constant talks about getting better, both to me, and me giving them to others. Before I knew it, 15 years passed, and I was no closer to feeling accomplished. There is always something I had to accomplish, without ever accomplishing it, because there is always something new and more challenging. I was 12 when I first started playing. I never cancelled my sub, until my girlfriend broke the chain monotony. The day I cancelled my sub made me feel like I was 12 again. Instead of exploring a game, however, I was finally exploring my freedom from the game. I do miss the old days, and the fun I had with my friends, but I'm not that person anymore. I want to thank every WoW player. No matter how long you've been playing. You guys are an amazing community, and I am proud to have spent some of my most important years with you all. For Azeroth!

[@PiratDunkelbart]

Reading this made me realize, that WoW and your WoW friends was a better world to be in than your RL world. At least for me until Cata. I even doubt that many people actually quit WoW, because RL became more fun, but because your ingame community you were part of began to crash down and dissolve. You had a world to escape to that was "better" or at least more fullfilling, but it became dull and boring. You come back for the occasional patch to play for 1 or 2 months, but it will be never be like back then again and you naturally quit and either do something in RL or in other games.

[@Doomshade]

@@PiratDunkelbart I was the same way with cata. It ruined me hard on the game, but I kept going. Always looked for the silver lining. Hoping the game would get better, or the work I was putting into the game would one day reward me for sticking with it. Never did tho. The game was a job I had to pay them to let me enjoy.

[@PiratDunkelbart]

@@Doomshade Was a bit different from me, because I knew at least 10 people in RL. Back then we had a CS/Quake Clan (so all competitive players) and also met to RL parties etc. Many of them started WoW. So I had even more of a reason to play this game.

[@jointser1008]

@@Doomshade I don't understand people trying to blame retail again, it has nothing to do with retail but rather with you getting to know the world until there is nothing left to explore.

[@Ar1AnX1x]

I think people who are in the community have become mostly toxic, they've become old, bitter and jaded and they don't realize it because they project it on everything else but themselves

[@Solrac-Siul]

I do not think it is necessarily bitter, more jaded to an extent. I am one of those that play the game for now almost 20 years. Can you swap places with me and realize that we have seen the same type of questions, the same type of mistakes, the same conversations, the same jokes and so on for years on end ? There is a reason why many individuals after working in the same company or place for 20 years end up hating it , and believe it or not in many of those cases it is not the work itself that is hated but everything around it, including coworkers . That is exactly what happens to a large segment in wow, we have been there, we have multiple tshirts, we have answered the same questions over and over, we have helped x and y and z over and over , and it gets to a point that we built our own networks of "friends" and people we know and become just indifferent to new comers that pop out today and are gone tomorrow, or that not only slow us down but many times create obstacles to the pursuit of our objectives. But for the most part there isn't a real level of bitterness. I still love the aspect of playing the game, the gameplay itself, what I dislike is a large segment of other players, that consistently make the same erroneous calls, the always pull mobs that can easily be avoided, participate in certain type of content without equipping themselves in any decent way , that do not know tactics and so on. I could deal with it 15 or 10 years ago, maybe even 5, but I am at a stage on my life where ultimately I just do not care anymore and do not even attempt to help or be involved with others . Ultimately I see those effectively as extra npcs that vanish the moment I log out or switch zone. That said I do not really fall in the toxic category as I simply do not say anything apart "hi", "ok", "bye" but i can easily understand others that go in a different path and just vocalize their frustration , because let's face once you have kids and a partner, you have less available time and if others are essentially wasting your available playing time over and over by not knowing what they are doing and expecting you to carry them, eventually some will react in a less educated manner- that happens in all walks of life not just in games.

[@chucklesuk]

It’s not the old ones it’s the new ones. Try to be like all the streamers.

[@deadplock]

@@chucklesuk Funny u say that, cuz I had this experience with younger ones when I started classic in 2019. They where very unfriendly and they insulted me for no reason. :) Iam sure not everyone is trying to be like the streamers but Iam also sure that there are so many kids out there that are trying to be like the streamer they watching. People like asmongold are full of shit and talking so much nonsense, and Iam sure some of the kids are following this blindly. But I also know a lot of older people that are toxic as hell, not in wow but other games. So its not just the younger generation, you will find toxicity in every age.

[@HolyArapaima]

I’m stuck in a WoW guild I can’t stand, but I’m only staying to reach my own goals. I’ve thought about leaving to find a new guild, but it’s been tough to do the specific content I enjoy, making it hard to find a good fit. Honestly, it feels like managing a second job at times. All they do is yell at each other, complain about mechanics, and throw around threats. Once I achieve what I need, I’m leaving because playing with them is miserable. I really miss my old guild; it was laid-back and we just did the content without complaining, but sadly all my friends have quit. I’m still grinding in silence to get what I want, but honestly, the constant negativity and nagging over petty stuff make me wonder if it’s even worth it. It’s sad because it just kinda is what it is I can't change people, I started WoW right before Burning Crusade, and watching it change so much has been something else, I’ve pretty much been a solo player since Wrath of the Lich King, and honestly, I think the flame’s starting to die out for myself personally.

[@ru99414]

As someone who quit after MoP after going really tryhard 2400+ 3v3 and RBG, i think the competitiveness was much greater than what it is today, which is depressive, introverted and streamers who just sits 12 hours on their ass drooling from their mouth too careless to express any opinions. Everything is so muted its boring. Yes the EU MoP was toxic, more so than any of these soft kids today can even handle, the hard environemt was filled with adrenaline with people calling out shit with no filter! Thats why it was exciting. This is what seperates the mere base game from the competitive, and its no reason the base game should EVER feel like the competitive scene...

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Blizzard making the game cater to the top 1%, and bottom 1%, of individual players doesn't help. They ignore things that foster community, and the majority of people in the middle. This is why I swapped to a RP server even when I didn't RP, they are the only ones that still have any semblance of community.

[@eppattv]

That is literally not true lol

[@LucifeRxGoSu]

the game was the most catered to the top 1% in classic/tbc, and it's only gotten more casual friendly with every expansion

[@jaxen231]

Also a factor are youtuber and streamer. You get contantly content of ppl who spend their job-, and life on the game so some viewers will set the bar to that. And the million "10 things you should or not do" "get op fast" "phase x tier lists" are making the free play segments shorter and shorter .. instrumental play is almost there at day 1

[@zedorian6547]

More like day 0

[@googleoperationcyclone]

I guarantee veterans don't enjoy the game the same they used to, they only play because wow is all they know.

[@bonestryke5391]

I personally know a handful. They agree with me that the game is worse, but say it'll get better again so they keep playing. It makes me so sad for them.

[@Whyspaer]

I'm a veteran and I still love it

[@ArmandMehicic]

I'm also a veteran and I still love every bit of the game. Although I'm a loremaster in many other games.

[@Whyspaer]

@@bonestryke5391 TWW is a great expansion.

[@googleoperationcyclone]

@@Whyspaer What got you hooked in playing wow initially

[@Glaceonics]

It's funny how Runescape 3 (Not OSRS) suffers the total opposite. The community is wonderful and almost always willing to help, there's very little elitism outside of a few very specific groups and almost all of the games problems exclusively come from the moron foundation that is Jagex.

[@HeIIaAverage]

It is absolutely a design decision. This is done deliberately. When you make content that is rewarding and significantly more difficult than the average player can accomplish, you create this problem. Many games do this, but not many do this in mmos, and none do it like wow. In a single player game, it's not that much of an issue. But when people have to rely on each other to achieve these things, you are going to have extreme levels of toxicity. This is a design issue, 100pct

[@Dystinction1]

I've been trying to enjoy the changes to retail and a lot of them are good. But there's this looming cloud of hostility over the game. I didn't think it could get worse, but retail easily has the most hostile, miserable community I've ever seen. Every day I log in I get a new reason to not come back.

[@goskawow1943]

MadSeason talking about shaving balls was not something I knew I needed

[@currentcommerce4774]

I just left my raiding clan in OSRS and I think you put great words to why in a way I couldnt. minmaxing is like anti-magic, it makes games less fun to me.

[@georgeindestructible]

WoW itself is the least toxic version it has ever been, players on the other side in that regard, vary all the time.

[@thomassleziak1222]

As a hardcore mythic+ and mythic raids player, I always helped everyone, was writing, calling for hours with random people who just /w me about some questions of the class (hunter). Then I rerolled mage, last played in TBC and yea, the guides were enough, but there was a little space to improve still. Then I realized, there is really no one who is willing to help you, not even your guildmates. People can’t find 5 minutes to help others, that is just sad.

[@SaveYourself666]

I always knew manscape was responsible for all those raid wipes and the toxicity of all video games

[@Craytonex]

Had a guy flame the healer during time walking yesterday as if he didn't over pull the room, when it is known that mobs hit extra hard due to scaring or something

[@Dystinction1]

Had a hunter call me a noob tank for pulling mobs in Mana Tombs that are required to get through and pulling more as a low level tank could have been disastrous. He then pulled more mobs with volley, even though he was mad I pulled more than he thought I should.

[@DrewberTravels]

I always mained a healer. Tanks that over pull or pay no attention to your mana are seriously the worst.

[@spookyclaws5350]

@@DrewberTravels I main a dps. I agree with this. I've seen so many healers get raged at by arrogant tanks. Like god forbid the healer doesn't sweat off pressing 10 buttons at once and reading in the stars what your next moves are, so he can calculate what's the best 0.4 seconds to drink some food to recover mana. I never really had other DPS/Healers ruin the dungeon experiences (and if it was, it was like 1 in 100), but the bad experiences I had were ALL caused by tanks with huge egos. Like chill bruh, it's a leveling dungeon, why are you so mad that we're not sweating our assess off to finish 2 seconds earlier than average.

[@atraxian5881]

An aging playerbase with less and less spare time for the game coupled with a game filled with systems that waste your time and punish you by design. Funny thing is World of Warcraft initial success came mainly because it was much less punishing and time wasting than the competition.

[@markblaze4909]

Backwards thinking. Wow literally has graveyards EVERYWHERE NOW, where it used to take 2-4 min to run to a corpse. newer dungeons have loops or teleports instead of time punishments Plus everyone, EVERYONE, E V E R Y O N E buys gold. if you don't you get it from guild masters who bought it. cheater everywhere. ez mode everywhere. it's not punishing or harder, it is easier. dont even get started on boosting. jesus. but yes this is what runied the game.

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

@@markblaze4909WAAAAAY to miss the actual point

[@steampunkpixie2643]

Things like Follower Dungeons help as you don't need to interact with other players to do Dungeons if you don't want to.

[@Kivanuno]

Addons, specifically metrics and IOs have ruined WoW

[@Frizzings]

I turn off data sharing just so people can’t use it on me

[@Snaxx_23]

​@Frizzings how do you shut that off?

[@hinatakenpachi6564]

Toxicity has always been there. It's just become more and more popular. A lot of it is streamers show it's perfectly find to be toxic... Assmohat is the worst offender of it imo. I enjoy helping other players. There are times when I'm not in the mood but I suck it up and give them a chance unless it's clear their trolling or just won't get it.

[@markblaze4909]

making a choice to not help another player is not what toxicity is crying that other people dont help others is what toxicity is.

[@legosi2736]

Hey, don't ever beat yourself over this Hinatakenpachi 🫂 you do what few do anymore, and I respect you 💯 and admire that, as a fellow WoW player since burning crusade, I also enjoy playing 💜both 💙Alliance and Horde❤️

[@Phyx1u5]

min maxing leads to toxicity toxicity leads to more min maxing more min maxing leads to even more toxicity etc etc...

[@deadplock]

min maxing leads to toxicity ... lol. No it does not. I like min maxing in some games, diablo 3 for example but I never flamed other people for not doing min maxing. (edit: I dont have flamed anybody in diablo 3 bdw) So you are wrong. Min maxing does not lead into toxicity, toxic people playing online games is what leads almost everytime into toxicity.

[@MiaSkylar]

Minmaxing kills fun in every game, once minmaxing starts, its over

[@Tarrimaster]

The damage that Warcrafftlogs has done to this game is on a similar scale to the bots.

[@asdf9890]

I played WoW from release to WotLK, I quit right before Cataclysm. I noticed it start to get toxic once the cross server/dungeon finder came along, also gear score to an extent. Before that, people had to actually find a group themselves in chat/guild. There were certain players on the server that were notorious for being jerks and most players just ignored/blocked them and they didn't get many raids with others and were shunned. The automatic dungeon brought those toxic jerks who would never see you again after the instance. So they used that to their advantage. That ruined the experience for me, and Blizzard making everything easier/automated took away the community spirit that was there before all that.

[@locococo7362]

"I noticed it start to get toxic once the cross server/dungeon finder came along, also gear score to an extent. " "The automatic dungeon brought those toxic jerks who would never see you again after the instance. ". THANK you.

[@AzureRoxe]

It's been toxic since like Wrath. Blizzard has always nurtured a toxic community, especially when the WoW fans always went berserk and attacked every other MMO and Blizzard themselves constantly released their big patches at around the same times others did.

[@matthewlawton9241]

Blizzard's release schedule has literally nothing to do with it.

[@AzureRoxe]

@@matthewlawton9241 Oh? So them releasing their patches and expansions always right before a competitor releases something and the fanbase attacking them was just a figment of my imagination?

[@Spika94]

I was doing a dungeon a couple weeks ago, and it was my first time in that dungeon (first dungeon in the war within), so me and 2 other people didn't quite get the layout and got a little confused... ONCE.. and immediately someone started complaining. After that Dungeon I think I stopped playing for like a week. I got so demotivated to play after seeing the immediate toxicity after a single mistake... well, it was not even a mistake, we just got delayed by 3 seconds because we were not sure where to go.

[@Adrenochromian]

My hatecrimes in lfg are legendary.

[@naejimba]

What I've learned is the only thing I can control is ME. Everyone else can be a jerk if they want, but I STILL try to help people learn. The difference now? Information is readily available, so no need to write any guides, and the people who need the help often don't want it or seem offended. I refuse to run GDKP runs and still try to find the "raid night with the homies" groups. Especially with older content, I've done it before... what makes it worth playing is the PEOPLE. If you're not making friends and having fun, what's the point? Sure, mastery keeps me coming back, but ultimately it is a GAME.

[@usedcolouringbook8798]

TLDR Fanaticism in any form breeds toxicity.

[@nonsense3455]

Shout out to religion I guess

[@Weavelol]

@@nonsense3455 Or the zealous alphabet mafia purple haired individuals

[@acemaster3339]

@@Weavelol Everyone is in a cult somehow I guess.

[@locococo7362]

@@acemaster3339 I'm in a PC cult. Fuck the consoles !

[@acemaster3339]

@@locococo7362 I meant that as "People love to claim people they hate are cultists."

[@AlphaGaming223]

One thing I think you overlooked is part of the toxicity is because they CAN be toxic. Back in Vanilla, if you were a jerk, or you were a ninja most people would refuse to play with you. I tanked a lot, and if people kept pulling for me, I would usually give them one courtesy "Please don't do that". But if it continued, and it was obviously intentional, I would usually just remove them from the group or at the very least if we were close to the end, I would just put them on ignore and never play with them again. By Burning Crusade, it was more along the lines of either be nice OR you better be a good player....no one wants to have crap talked to them in Kara by a mage in full welfare epics. By Wrath though, that had changed a lot. The ability to just AOE everything down, Dungeon finder, easier content, it became much more accessible and so players started to be much more toxic. Today, you literally have a game where almost all the content can be done solo and no matter how toxic you are, its almost impossible to stop you from getting gear. It repeated itself also in Classic. Classic most people were really cool, and just like the first time, I made more lifelong friends. In Burning Crusade yes it was true that the better players gravitated toward each other, but most people were really decent. But when Wrath classic came back, the exact same toxicity came back for me just like it did 16 years ago and I just stopped showing up.

[@DavidUnger-j6f]

That was the wisdom of EverQuest. A level 35 character took months, and getting a character to cap took the better part of a year. If you ruined your name, you were out all that time invested. People had great manners because there was accountability and consequences.

[@icantthinkofaname2722]

"almost all the content can be done solo" that's just not not true. Maybe you mean that you can join groups as a solo player, so pugging. But try that if you're not a very good player/and or in bad gear/and or don't have experience/and or play a spec that isn't in high demand/has high supply. Any combination of at least two of these things and you will have a very hard time finding pugs at least that was the case when I last played (bfa, which has admittedly been some time now) But your point that people are more toxic because they can be still is true I think. The community is less tightly knit due to group finder which can find groups even from outside your server these days (and I think even from outside your faction now?)

[@AlphaGaming223]

@@icantthinkofaname2722 Delves are quite literally single player dungeons that you do with an NPC. All normal dungeons can be done with other players, but can also be done with NPCs. Even Most elite world bosses that I have killed, have been done solo....it just takes me 10 minutes. LFR might as well be single player, and just doing random world quests will often give better upgrades. Until you get to about heroic raids, and mythic dungeons, you do not need any other players mostly. That was the point I was getting at.

[@markblaze4909]

In World of Warcraft, 'toxic' often refers to elitist behavior, especially in high-level content like Mythic dungeons. Groups may kick players who underperform, focusing solely on their objectives and creating a cutthroat environment. While some view this as part of high-level play, others see it as toxic because it discourages newer or less experienced players from participating.Honestly, noobs shouldn't get upset-they're the lucky ones! Being new or still learning is the best part of WoW. Once you get good, it can get pretty boring!

[@filipvadas7602]

The difficulty was one of the main factors. When you had a limited amount of tries per week and the difficulty of Raids & Dungeons , even on normal, dramatically increasing from Cataclysm onward; it caused the hardcore players to unintentionally gatekeep endgame content (because why would you spend time on training new players when you have your own existing groups) and for casual players to not even try to engage with it because the bar for entry was so high. This on top of having to deal with players who could kick you for the tiniest mistake and you have the beginning of the casual-hardcore divide the game suffers now.

[@JustGio1111]

Kinda makes me scared to really get into wow. I want to play classic as it seems beginner friendly but idk…

[@Bitterman5868]

Blizzard themselves fed this behavior, just look at Blood elves and TBC in general, Every single toxic and Raid or Die behavior started there due to the grinding and certain wowtubers, and when wrath came out, said people started to push Gear Score, Cata is where the camel broke its back and the game never healed since then, even Vanilla servers absorbed this behavior badly and pushed to classic, there is no fun anymore, just pooooopsock.

[@josejuanandrade4439]

Only classic realy... the Retail scene right now is at one the best moments ever. My last group experiences have all been super smooth and nice. -LFR the other day ONE person got mad because tanks didn't know the route, and the group literaly shut him up, saying it was fine, is literaly the 1st week the wing is out, and went out to explain the tank the route, and subsequent fights. And i had one of the smoothes runs in lfr of my life, i nearly couldnt believe it lol. -TW just yesterday there was a lot of wipes because the tunning was all mess up. Noone complained. instead they all were talking about how bad the tuning was this time around and agreed to slow down the speed, and it went much better. -I havent run heroics since lfr is out but the initial weeks, everybody was super nice, even in stupid dungeons like Dawnbreaker. I had a friend receive the trinket from the AK dungeon from a random guy. He had been farming that trinket for a few days and finaly someone just gave it to him...

[@neugassh3570]

:D:D:D:D

[@heroman1322]

People actually playing the game on sub mythic play are genuinely helpful and kind to newer players. Most complaining have not played fresh parts of the game or are out of touch.

[@josejuanandrade4439]

@@heroman1322 A friend just tried is first mythic and mythic+ dungeons. He actualy enjoyed his experience and said he was pumped to do more. Went unto downlading DBM and Recount (yes he had no addons) after someone suggested he could improve his dps for higher keys. The fact they did not chastised him for not doing "good" dps or having no addons and instead encouraged him to get em and improve is all you need to know about retail state :)

[@furydeath]

Anyone remember when combat logs was just used to see how the raid was going or what killed you and now it's just dooood ma parces

[@storiesofindiana]

As someone who started WoW in late Burning Crusade, my early days were exactly as described at the beginning of this video. The thrill was in exploration and the stories spread across the world. By the end of Wrath, most of my friends stopped playing, so I joined a guild and learned to raid, so I moved into the competitive side. That lasted through Cataclysm, which ended at the start of Panda Land. Then I went to FF14 that just started ARR and it was my MMO home until Dawntrail just pointed me back to WoW, where I started a completely new account and am enjoying the journey again, just playing solo and exploring what I have missed.

[@Bandoks]

Grew up watching you, now an adult and I’m glad to still see you doing what you love, we all appreciate you a lot madseason

[@murppy9785]

I’ve gotten to the point where I just play wow for fun, I don’t actively try to get world firsts, to do the hardest content or get the best possible highest rated gear. I do raids mainly on LFR so I can see the raid and its bosses, and occasionally a normal raid if they’re looking for someone and I feel up for it. I don’t do mythics or anything like that just heroic dungeons through the dungeon finder. But all of that is only if I’m feeling it. Majority of the time I’m questing and exploring the world, going to zones that I feel in the mood for with a new alt, or mount farming, rep farming, leveling a profession. I play as a casual player proudly because honestly that’s how we should all be playing the game. Casually but serious about completing a goal when involved with it. Don’t obsess over it and need to have everything or else it becomes a chore. I play until I’m not having fun then I log off simple as that.

[@mikewoodman7700]

in the 80s that approach was called "smelling the roses along the way!"

[@rossgage9730]

How can it be toxic anymore when they'res barely any interaction?

[@adamgroszkiewicz814]

Hey the old days were great, and we got to pretty much go back for Classic. Nobody ever gets to go back and relive things, but we were all lucky enough to get that chance with a game we truly loved.

[@zedorian6547]

Congrats?

[@adamgroszkiewicz814]

@@zedorian6547 congrats?

[@highlordlaughterofcanada8685]

It was always toxic. The nature of MMO's ensures that somebody will take it way too seriously. It was just less noticeable back in the day as the internet wasn't quite mainstream yet, so less exposure was given to the actual toxic elements.

[@guardllama8922]

Blizzard is in control of all of the rewards and punishments. They can discourage toxic behavior if they make it a priority. The same is true of any kind of community or organization. Leadership can always set the tone and change the culture if they care enough to do so. It is possible to be competitive and give criticism without being abusive towards people.

[@ltbraca470]

It all started going down hill when gear score became a thing. Then it became about gear and not the player.

[@GigglesD2]

Ah good ole GS days aroubd TOC/ICC. Remeber just sitting in eventide stairs watching people demand X GS to join a stupid daily heroic. Was the start of the downward spiral of "we won't allow you to play the game you pay for unless you've played the game you've paid for" i.e you must run the raid to be able to run the raid conundrum.

[@evg3nius]

GS, ranked play, tank\healer\dps system, achievement system. All of those have positive side and negative side

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

Problem is though that it ALWAYS was about gear, it’s just got worse

[@jurpo6]

I got kicked from a cata guild for getting a blue parse by the officer that got a green parse. Wow sucks.

[@bashvash]

sounds like that guy sucked

[@kubasniak]

lmao that's hilarious

[@Nick-mu4dy]

Do you want to know why World of Warcraft has become toxic? One of the reasons is right here. Uninformed individuals are posting their subjective opinions about something that is neither black and white nor viewed in its entirety. The only thing you gain from watching such videos is accumulating prejudices and adopting this toxic perspective of the "present" while romanticizing the "past." Stop watching such garbage and start gaining your own experience, regardless of the subject. PS: It's nice that you mentioned Final Fantasy XIV as a positive example. Next time, however, you should do your research a bit more thoroughly because the competitive part of the community is not only largely toxic but also sexist. For many male players, FFXIV is practically an MMORPG version of Tinder.

[@larrygarms7230]

It’s always been that way. I started in OGTBC and wanted to tank as a pally. Learned every trick in the book, geared my way to be crit/crush proof and STILL got shit on by every other player and guild. It’s ALWAYS been a toxic environment.

[@pB-ri6su]

In classic, especially once the pandemic hit, the problem was you had a lot of people who's entire self worth was in WoW. Some of them spent their entire lives remembering themselves as kings of vanilla, until a fat blue 50 was staring them in the face. Some guys in our guild had existential crisises over finding out they were average guys in more than just WoW

[@88Plamen]

I see this happening in FF14 although it's all veiled in passive agressiveness since the ToS being what it is. But you can still feel people being salty or angry or toxic. If you're part of any community in the game, that means you're also on discord and you're absolutely getting judged there. I am a person who doesn't like to use addons and does not use dmg meters or logs but still really likes to raid and I really enjoy raiding blind, solving the mechanics myself alongside a team and forming a strategy to clear. But every single group I have been a part of in FF14 clowns on me for not using dmg meters or for wanting to raid blind. No one has ever said anything about my actual performance in the raids. But after they find out I'm not using the "accepted" raid addons they start to ridicule me. I also don't understand the obsession with clearing as fast as possible. A ton of people complain there is nothing to do because they already cleared. I've never met a person who wants their fun to be over as fast as possible and then go back to not doing anything, afking, waiting and complaining that there is nothingn to do. Well I hadn't met such people before I met the mmo raiding communities. I don't understand those people. If I have trouble at work with something then yes I would absolutely look it up, study it and try to understand it. But when I'm in the game I treat it as entertainment and the fun for me comes from trying to solve things myself by testing with a team, communicating and forming a plan and it is incredibly satisfying when your group's strategy actually works. Just looking up a video, copying what it sais and rushing through the mechanics as fast as possible, ideally with no one talking or joking around is not fun or satisfying for me. I really like raiding... but I don't want to even go near the raiders and I hate the guide culture of today.

[@cyanmage1]

what data center are you on I never had anything like this on Aether unless you are doing ultimates i don't mess with those pugs no time for that kinda stuff, but I'm curious about this not trying to call you out or anything just wanting to know if this is just something I have been ignoring or not seeing in my pf clears i do use damage meters but only to track what I can do better in a fight more easily

[@88Plamen]

@@cyanmage1 I'm on EU. So idk, NA might be different. Or I might just have really bad luck with people. Or more than likely very few people actually have a similar playstyle to mine. I have been looking for a blind prog static in game, in discords, on reddit for some months now with no luck what so ever, so it might be a case of everyone wanting to play with a guide and seeing someone play in a different way is in some way offensive to them. Kinda like if you're not with us then you're against us. But those are just my thoughts. I only shared what I've experienced in the game so it's only one person's point of view.

[@smashi4088]

never ask an ff14 player how they did titan gaols in uwu, dsr phase 6, anything in top, or what that text to speech voice telling them “dynamo, chariot, thermo” was in ucob

[@Jay_bit]

Most players who complain about toxicity are normally those who are also regularly toxic

[@Snaxx_23]

Not always true

[@tonoshikikai]

I have said this in regards to other games too If the developer does not in some way force a positive community, then at some point the community WILL turn toxic and hateful.

[@ferriswilliams7097]

The answer is easy.......when you make your mmo play like a console game this is inevitable. Firstly you made the gameplay to be a "IM THE HERO" type of mentality, you can do it all with almost no need for others until endgame gearing. Secondly you made crafting so easy and that it became non issue for the most part thus making interactivity irrelevant. And with almost no real emphasis on open world pvp you made the need for others to be needed to be safe with to travel and quest a thing of the past. Add in no real-time oversite of the chats by in game moderators this was almost a certainty this type of toxic play would proliferate.

[@sccampbell]

12:44 that period is now 3 weeks. It's super frustrating that you can't even experience the new expansion without the pressure of having to be at max level with appropriate gear level within 3 weeks if you want to raid with your friends.