Why You Shouldn’t Use TAGS To Segment Your Email List

[@vanessamcviety2973]

OMG, I am not alone. I like order and clarity. Seriously struggled with this and a method of organisation without tags being the primary data field. Thank you. I now need to understand integration to mailchimp to auto add tags, segments and groups/fields etc

[@chrisford7351]

So what YOU really want to get across is the LOGIC to prevent illogical and over lapping data errors. Never heard of this but understand the importance. Very good!

THANK YOU. Someone who actually thinks through what the best solution is!!!!!

[@nickmurphy3472]

Really good stuff! Takeaway for me is: Binary = Tag & Any Grey Area = Custom Field.

[@hoodeez]

bruh mansplain this in monkey speak because he kept repeating himself and i got irritated finding that the advice was more or less subject to the content maker and not the algorithm its self

[@RickBannerman]

Great video, I feel the exact same way. I personally take it one step further and say that even in a situation where the answer can only be True or False, a custom field is still better. Instead of putting "T" or "F" in the field though, use a timestamp for when it became true. If the field is blank it's False, if it's not blank, it's True and I know when it was updated. I find this gives me a lot more data if you ever want to use it AND the best part is you can export that.

[@BrennanDunn]

Love it, especially since timestamps give you temporal info about WHEN they entered into that state. All the ESPs (presumably) track when a tag was applied, but none to my knowledge let you do anything with that data. Great call!

[@dialedinconfig9942]

Ouch! You're absolutely spot on. What I think happens, at least to me, is the limitations of the tooling that goes along with the data sometimes gets people in the habit of making bad choices because there might be an API for mass changes to tags, but the same API for custom fields requires you loop through the list members, thereby hitting up against your API rate limit. (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!)

[@chrisbadgett1837]

Brilliant. You've really added a lot of clarity for me around custom fields. Thanks Brennan!

[@BrennanDunn]

Thanks for watching, Chris!

[@automationengage1352]

Totally agree with you Brennan. I had to sort out a large membership site that was using tags to indicate whether someone was a member or a lapsed member...and of course there were MANY instances where BOTH were present. I quickly came to the same conclusion - a custom field that is updated upon confirmed payment or payment failure is the only way to make sense of this. Tag and list abuse is rampant in these systems and the only reason why others may not be as passionate about it is because they don't see how big of a problem it becomes when the business grows and has actual VOLUME going through it. Then the fact that it is riddled with bad data is revealed as a huge pain point and bottleneck to growth. Until that pain is felt...the vast majority will continue manage their contacts and data in a haphazard way and not see what the big deal about all this is.

[@BrennanDunn]

YES. This wasn't a video I recorded because I was bored - but rather, because EVERY decently sized and sophisticated email database I've come across falls *hard* because of crappy tagging segmentation.

[@ironalloy]

I run into this "dilemma" right off the start. Tags simply did not provide me with the granularity I was looking for. I started to work with Custom Fields and Events in an effort to find out which one is better. I am happy to get your take on the subject and clearing my vision for the implementation (I lent towards Custom Fields anyways…). Thank you, Brennan :-)

[@shawneilbailey-gordon4255]

Very good clarification. I have a small business and I am now getting around adding my niche customer list in Mailchimp. I attempted to add a customer and then did a google to make sure I was on the right path. News flash I wasn't! I was tagging everything lmao Thank you for this video! I am going to edit my custom fields and apply tags only to binary items like suggest,t I'm now a new subscriber. I am excited to learn more!

[@tammymartin2218]

This is great Brennan! We have already started using custom fields and this video has given us some ideas on how to use them more extensively. Thanks for sharing your point of view.

[@Poster88]

This is one of the best explanations I've seen on Tags vs Custom fields usage. Great stuff!

[@rmaitconsultants641]

Thank you for the video. It's really good to see the contents talking about use cases instead just step by step applying a setup, which are plenty on the internet. The video was useful to me.

[@CareyVandenberg]

Some useful thoughts in here. In a CRM Tags are easier to change for a large segment whereas CF's have to be changed 1 by 1. The contact has to be opened, click on the appropriate custom Tab (in my CRM) and then find the CF I need to change. To breakdown a Tag into 4 or 5 different categories I would do ie Client 1 Gold, Client 2 Silver, Client 3 Bronze, Client 4 Contender. That way I can change the Tag as people move up and it's much faster YET keeps things very clean.

[@BrennanDunn]

Carey Vandenberg does your CRM support bulk operations? Field names are usually centralized, and you could update values en masse by basically saying “anyone who’s favorite_color = red” change to “favorite_color = magenta” - this makes it just as easy to centrally update a tag.

[@desireehart3075]

Thanks, Brennan, for adding so much clarity to the question of tags vs. custom fields. Makes perfect sense, this is how I'll be handling segmentation for upcoming projects.

[@JuliusMiribung]

But custom fields are (in most tools) more "chunky" to use, some even have limits (Mailchimp limits to 30 custom fields), that's no good if you run multiple products, funnels, webinars, ect... I prefer to use tags BUT tie the assignment of a tag to the deletion of another tag. Like "If tag WEBINAR XY JOINED is assigned, remove tag WEBINAR XY REGISTERED". That makes the use of tags similar to the use of custom fields you describe in the video. To me, custom fields make most sense to use for settings that a user would be able to edit himself on a subscriber profile page (Like "Newsletter settings daily/weekly/monthy ect")

[@BrennanDunn]

Good point, Julius. Most ESPs are unfortunately pretty tag-centric, as are the tools that integrate with them. Didn’t know Mailchimp restricted to 30 custom fields - that’s rubbish. And while you can set up a lot of rules that remove tags when others are added, that’s the sort of added complexity that led me to create this video. Especially if you have more than a binary situation and there are multiple “choose one of many” options. With fields needing to do that becomes an non-issue.

[@nowmarkdoes4026]

Thankyou Brennan. That was a really clear explanation of the use cases for tags and custom fields. You've given me the confidence to finally clean up and restructure our data layers, rather than work around with increasingly large rule sets for each segment.

[@BrennanDunn]

Great!!! Then I've done my job :-)

[@LivingAwakeInc]

The other issue with this is what if you are both. Pat is an entrepreneurial space. For example, with myself, I have several small businesses in different stages. The other thing it does in Pat's case is it locks someone in to progressing at his pace of learning versus at the customers pace.

[@LamarSchoell]

WOW! Tons of value on tags and custom fields. I love the thought process and how you explained the difference between the two. Well done.

[@BrennanDunn]

Glad you think so!

[@AnilAgrawal]

Nice! I need to do some cleanup as well. I like the idea of webinar status to use custom field as well. Thanks, Brennan!

[@nevillechamberlain3945]

The underlying principle is simple: - Tags are on/off (or have/have not) flags. - Custom fields can contain one of many values I use tags to follow whether someone has attended a specific workshop; read an article, and so on and then use that to target specific "segments" to send emails to everyone who's attended a workshop or read that article. Custom fields are for "true" segmentation, where I want to distinguish people who "need A" from "need B" (and use that to customise emails or other info).

[@BrennanDunn]

Bingo!

[@teripastorino2299]

Thanks for recording this - absolutely agree with use of custom fields. Looking forward to more videos along these lines.

[@BrennanDunn]

Thanks Teri!

[@proonlinelearning8660]

Really interesting video. A bit difficult to understand for a beginner like me but I will defo come back to it. Wish I could learn how to use custom fields as I start but it is gonna have to wiat:). Thank you. Really informtive and one of the challenges for 2021:)

[@jennifermoran2873]

Really great video! Much food for thought as I ponder how to best set up two clients' email lists.

[@davidjewett5758]

I really like your presentation, and I got a lot out of it. Thanks.

[@BrennanDunn]

Thank you, David!

[@benyam525]

Brennan very cool. Would be interesting to see how you get around CK limitations on stripe custom events for subscription products. Right now, they only pull in from stripe "purchase" data. So I've had to start using zapier to capture more stripe data (I.e. trial, cancelled, churn) to send to CK under the custom field "status." However, it's super confusing and I'm not sure if I need to setting up more than one zap for each status type. Can I drop you an email for a little help?

[@BrennanDunn]

Thanks, yeah you'd need to heavily rely on Zapier. I'd like to see the CK Stripe integration become a bit more robust. And yep, drop me an email!

[@PaulHillGuitarist]

Great video thank you. I am new to email marketing and I have only just started building automations. I have been thinking about how best to implement the tools at my disposal as I realise that things could easily get out of control further down the road. Custom fields will definitely save me headaches later on. 👍

[@BrennanDunn]

Thanks so much, Paul! Plan on creating a lot more (in the process of a US -> UK move, so all my equipment is packed) - glad this video helped.

[@hal-zeitlin]

I am currently taking a break from rebuilding an automation doing exactly this!

[@Gearyco]

The problem remains that support for this in 3rd party apps is limited or nonexistent. You mentioned webinars. I’m pretty sure apps like Demio only integrate with tags. It’s pretty much that way across the board.

[@BrennanDunn]

Yep, unfortunately. I’m hoping this eventually changes. In the meantime, I’ll continue to use “flag” tags that trigger rules that write fields then ditch the temp tags.

[@benyam525]

Digital Ambition and if I'm not mistaken even zapier, from stripe to CK, is "tag oriented." At least that's been my experience thus far.

[@Gearyco]

@@benyam525 Yep, believe so.

[@BrennanDunn]

@@donnielawson Yep, in CK setup an automation rule that says when tag "Flag - Noop" (or whatever you want to call it) is applied, immediately remove it. Then for your Zapier actions apply that tag - and set the custom fields you actually care about! (My kingdom for CK supporting events!!!)

[@ChrisBrisson]

Amen! Great video. This definitely helped me understand how to use fields vs tags. Tags have been driving me crazy.

[@terrakellyauthor]

Thank you so much for this video! I needed help and it was extremely helpful!

[@avinadel1]

Excellent Video. Great Explanation!

[@danbennett7230]

Where's the beef? 4:48 is where the real information starts!

[@beckymartin8825]

This all makes sense, and I'm happy to start with Custom Fields from day 1 (we're switching to Convert Kit and our current subscriber list is

[@BrennanDunn]

Well, you probably aren't updating subscribers manually - there should be a few key places where you're setting these custom fields. Easiest way to ensure naming is all correct, etc. is to have a Google Doc or something setup that documents exactly what fields you have, along with their possible values.

[@beckymartin8825]

@@BrennanDunn I'm looking forward to the release of your ConvertKit class where I can benefit from your expertise. Being new to this, I have no bad habits to unlearn. I'm looking forward to getting started.

[@christopherreilly4930]

So in that survey setting, how would you create custom tags to send people to different sequences? Seems like the last one they pick is the sequence they would be in?

[@BrennanDunn]

I wouldn't use tags :-) I'd set a custom field (like "favorite_color") to be the value of the last link they clicked on. If you really want to do it right, wait a few minutes after that field changes before pushing someone forward - just in case they change their mind and click on another segmentation link.

[@chrisreillyfinancialmodeling]

@@BrennanDunnthanks. I started with tags, whereby whatever link they click triggers [tag 01] which then triggers [sequence 01]. If they click on any other link, then they are tagged accordingly [i.e., tag 02], subscribed to [sequence 02], then tags removed from all other sequences and unsubscribed from all other sequences. HOWEVER, the weirdest issue I'm facing is that sometimes people will end up in all four sequences without any tags at all. That part I just don't understand. I'm trying to work with ConvertKit support but unfortunately not getting very far. I know I'm in the weeds on this issue, but any ideas? Regarding the use of your custom field idea, I'm not sure what you mean by "push someone forward". Thanks!

[@PaulMillerd]

Brennan - good video. Am wondering what your take is on using CK forms without RM? It seems like you can only add a tag for customer segment and then you'd need to create a rule. Is this the way or should I just start with RM now (planning on buying it anyway)

[@BrennanDunn]

Would you be segmenting at all on your forms? If not, then CK forms are fine - especially since CK’s API only allows a new contact to be added via a form submit or a tag assignment, so if you use RM you’ll still need to push new leads into either an underlying CK form or tag (I use forms)

[@PaulMillerd]

@@BrennanDunn What i am trying to do as a version 1.0 of a segmenting strategy for my customers is to have them select from CK dropdown question, "what describes your current role?" and then it looks like the only way to do this is assign them a tag and have a rule to change the custom field. Am I missing something?

[@BrennanDunn]

@@PaulMillerd right, yeah unfortunately CK form dropdowns can only set tags. If you use their forms and want to set a (proper) custom field, you’ll need to use a rule or automation. Not so with RightMessage forms.

[@PaulMillerd]

@@BrennanDunn alright. Looks like you’re getting a new customer 😂

[@Nate710]

Great case for a problem I didn't really think about (but is important!). Is Right Message the only real right way to use custom fields correctly?

[@BrennanDunn]

Probably not, but most 3rd party tools that integrate with email marketing apps heavily skew toward tags. Any tool that can write a tag should be able to easily set a custom field also.

[@SophieMarnez]

It makes a lot of sense... thanks !

[@mydasmatv3613]

made a lot of sense will apply asap.

[@CK_Fitness]

I don't see an option on Mailchimp for custom fields, is this not available? I'm looking at manually adding subscribers, does this relate to a sign up form? Also, is there an option in Mailchimp to clean up tags like you mentioned? Such as, "If A then never B or C"?

[@juliosoares4880]

hey, did you find an answer to that? I'm having trouble with that too

[@CK_Fitness]

@@juliosoares4880 No I did not, I still use tags but I keep it pretty simple. Example- current clients, known locals, old clients, potential clients, etc. And I have tags set up for when someone buys a fitness program they are tagged the appropriate tag in order to get on that email list to get their workouts and everything.

[@kd11]

this was so helpful!! It's like duh once you hear it but I def needed to hear it!

[@TamilFreelanceCoaching]

What a great video! I admire your experience in this field. I'll start looking into custom fields instead of tags from now.

[@CNCCookbook]

This is much ado about mostly nothing. It's a trivial problem to overcome in your email's automation rules. You need a rule that's fired whenever the contact is tagged. You were probably going to have that anyway. When the tag is added, set the custom field. Now, anything that needs to know the one of many value accesses the custom field and not the tags. Alternately, as soon as you learn what one of many tag they get, use that tag (or set a new tag "SegmentSelected") that causes your automation flows to quit asking. You don't have to worry about fancy automation to turn off the other tags, though you can do so if you want people to be able to update their segment. You don't have to worry about third party tool support. The tools can just fire tags as always and your few simple rules will sort it out. I'm from the camp that says that if the user picked two, they want to hear about two. Or, if they want to change their mind down the road, they should be able to. After all, what percentage of your contact list picked more than one anyway? This is working too hard to solve a problem that barely exists. My ActiveCampaign account has 150,000 contacts. I segment into 4 segments, that are exactly the kind of thing Brennan doesn't want to do with tags. Out of 10's of thousands of contacts that are tagged with one of the 4 segments, only 15 had more than one tag!

[@BrennanDunn]

Love it! Healthy disagreement. One quick question: if you’re going to set a SegmentSelected tag when a segmentation tag is added... that seems even more complicated and adds random new tags in (one per sibling segment set) - setting a custom field value and checking to see if it’s set or not achieves the same thing, right?

[@CNCCookbook]

Brennan, using the SegmentSelected tag is a shortcut you can use or ignore. It's based on how well your third party tools can access custom fields and whether you use a custom field. If their access to custom fields is good, it's not needed. If you prefer to use a pure tag approach with no custom fields, it will save a lot of time. The additional complexity doesn't seem any greater if you use it instead of custom fields.

[@BrennanDunn]

@@CNCCookbook Unless I'm mistaken, it seems like the root of your argument seems to boil down to 3rd party tools generally writing tags vs custom fields - right? If that's the case, it seems like it's an issue with those tools being developed half-assed vs. fields! Setup #1 (tags) - You mentioned having rules that are basically state indicators. When a "SegmentSelected" tag is written (and there'd need to be one of these tags per sets of sibling segments), use that to trigger an automation or something. - Rules would need to be setup that "clean up" tags that need to be discarded in a one-of-many segmentation setup. You mentioned that you'd probably setup rules to handle these removals anyway. - You rightfully said that if someone wants to select multiple sibling segments set then they should, and the way to do that is tags. No argument there. Setup #2 (fields) - No need for superfluous rules that just look for a tag whose job is *literally* just to basically signify that segmentation has happened. We just have automations that are looking for changes to a custom field. - No need for cleanup rules. If I have a trigger link that sets a custom field (and thus, eliminates old segmentation), I don't need an extra rule. I just have this link that sets a custom field, and then any automations that look for that field being changed just... work. - If I have a many-of-many segmentation need, I just use tags. It seems like the second scenario is MUCH cleaner and doesn't require silly throwaway tags and such. And if it's an issue with 3rd party software not supporting custom field operations, the onus should be on them to fix that!

[@CNCCookbook]

@@BrennanDunn , no we still disagree. Is Setup #2 MUCH (your emphasis, LOL) cleaner? Not really. As I pointed out, you actually don't need the complicated tag cleanup in most cases because: - Once any of the tags is set, you should've quit asking the question, right? That's one of the first advantages of these personalization systems. We don't ask for information we already know. - Even if not, I contend the number of people that answer more than once will be so small as to be safely ignored. So, with no "complicated" (and BTW, ain't all that complicated), tag cleanup code, tags are generally easier to deal with even in the Email program than custom fields. Not MUCH cleaner at all. As I said, this is a problem that mostly doesn't exist, and even if you worry it does, isn't hard to solve.

[@BrennanDunn]

@@CNCCookbook Gotcha! OK, so re the first point. If you're using trigger links to add blindly tags, you WILL get bad data. Because people will click multiple and there's no way to rerender a sent email to eliminate other options. If those links are writing custom fields, it's a non issue. A lot of marketers are using email surveys with trigger links to let people self-segment, and while smart surveying software won't ask a question that already has been answered, again - can't do the same with emails that have already been sent!

[@MichaelFrancis222]

It's a different way to approach clarity.

[@ErikHill1]

Great video, ty

[@nataecolvin3648]

makes total sense

[@jvalenti370]

I own a business... and that makes me at least a "sometimes" hypocrite. Example: I liked the video: interesting, basic idea that is indeed deserving of consideration. I learned something new! I disliked the video: a seasoned communicator (like you!) could have made the point, contrasted the alternatives and offered a conclusion in fewer than 18 minutes. Just sayin'. I enjoyed it enough to "subscribe", and I will look for more of your content. You're an excellent presenter (with a good video editor).

[@BrennanDunn]

Thanks! And yeah, I can be a bit... verbose :-)

[@jasonhobbsllc2547]

Case made.

[@BrennanDunn]

*mic drop* :-)

[@nadjaklingen9263]

your intro is toooo looonnnggg !!!!

[@danbennett7230]

I always feel bad when i get good information but I have to comment on it taking waaaay to long to get.