Why Your Next Groupset Will Be From Temu | GCN Tech Show Ep.349

[@gcntech]

Would you use a lesser known groupset on your bike?🚴

[@songfta]

Absolutely! I've tried the L-Twoo and Wheeltop electronic groupsets and they work almost as well as Di-2 and eTap at a fraction of the cost. And I currently run a Magene PES power meter crankset which is an amazing value for the money, well built, uses the proven Shimano 24mm BB standard, etc. And given GCN is sponsored by Elite Wheels (one of the big Chinese direct-to-consumer brands) y'all are already on the path to this reality, so....

[@MAMIL-CYCLING]

It only takes one major ‘European’ branded manufacturer to commit to Ltwoo, Sensa or similar as their proprietary group set supplier and they’ll go mainstream.

[@curtisducati]

No chance , will only work a few months then dead and no spares back up or help from seller who has your cash 6000 miles away laughing ....Dura Ace secondhand if your on a budget ....

[@2001MBKBooster]

I already do. I use MicroSHIFT Advent X on my mountain bike. It's robust and works great. And as someone who is thinking about a new groupset on one of my rim brake bikes, that Wheeltop electronic option is tempting.

[@kenwalker-ze7ht]

For once in my life I'd like to be able to buy a whole, new, matching groupset, and not cobble together a bike with odd bits from the back of the shed.

[@JG-yp6rt]

I was riding in the early 80s and I remember when everybody wanted campy but you settled for Shimano because that’s what you could afford.

[@PhilandErika]

In the 70s my bike had some Campy and the less durable, more frequently replaced bits were Suntour.

[@thomaseser8359]

Thats the way it goes. The time of wheeltoü and others will come in 1 or 2 years tje groupsets are flawless.

[@geneavallone3524]

As a guy who has put over 20,000 miles on Sensah SRX and Empire groupsets I can tell you the quality control on this stuff is pretty bad. Loose pivots on the rear derailleur causing imprecise shifting springs that wear out so the rear derailleur won't go down to the small cogs, derailleurs and shifters that don't seem to have the same pull ratio. It all comes down to poor quality control, and if you ride in winter road salt will render the rear derailleur useless where the Shimano stuff just seems to keep on working. In the long run the Shimano stuff will work out to be cheaper and you can spend more time riding instead of working on your bike.

[@shred3005]

But despite the disappointments and trouble that comes the poor quality control, you’re prepared to put up with it for 20,000+ miles? 🤔

[@vredneckv]

Wait what? You're complaining the QC is bad but you still did 20k miles on it? That's like 5 or 6 years of riding for an average joe, maybe even more. Even if there were some repairs involved during those 20k miles, that still sounds good enough to me. I need a new set of Tiagra brifters for a project but I guess I better buy Sensah Quantum instead for like 1/3 of the price.

[@geneavallone3524]

@@vredneckv I ride 500 miles a month year-round in upstate NY. I had pretty good luck with the Sensah Empire stuff on my road bikes except for a rear derailleur with a bad pivot where it bolts to the hanger which was very loose and had to be replaced. Initially had very good luck with SRX but lately the stuff seems to have gotten worse and worse. Stepped up and bought a couple carbon groups with levers and rear derailleurs these came with the Lingmai carbon cages, these were complete junk. There were rivets on the cage that had to be filled down so they wouldn't rub on the chain and the carbon levers didn't seem that they were actually made to work with the included rear derailleurs, they definitely had different pull ratios. I also bought a really inexpensive 10 speed derailleur and shifter for a fat bike from sensah, same issue it didn't seem like the shifter was made for the included rear derailleur it just didn't work. The one bargain in the line that has consistently worked is the basic SRX rear derailleur with brake lever shifters. Overall I would say buyer beware the stuff may work but then again it may not.

[@LanceJapan]

Its across the board for every thing, for the same reason there are more lithium battery fires in China than any where else. The corners cut always show up in sooner or later.

[@HighFell]

All these faults but in hundreds not thousands of miles. By comparison I do ride 1000’s of miles on Campagnolo and Shimano with none of these faults.

[@grndkntrl]

No it won't, because I'll never buy anything from Temu.

[@a1white]

Such a dodgy website

[@semiephemeral9]

This. Temu is a huge data farming operation for the PRC.

[@grndkntrl]

@@rob-c. Never bought/buying anything from there either.

[@AegisOnlinePublishing]

@@semiephemeral9this is the only reason they offer so many deep discounts. The information is worth more than the products.

[@hman72y]

​​​@@grndkntrl Ali has become pretty reliable if you know where to order as now they have 'official' store for brand like sensah, ltwoo, ztto, toosek, oniiri etc... But I don't buy products with a huge price to stay under the limit defined by the European so, no extra tax to pay as it's automatically calculated by Ali Also my second hobby is 3d printings so it helped me to learn how to deal with Ali 😂

[@pskonejott2568]

Shimano just feels great and arguably affordable for what it offers. Ima fan of 105 :D

[@kalleandersson916]

Shimano aint sponsoring GCN anymore..

[@Mandok.]

No, and we are all fo sale to chinese or arabs, money money makes the world go round

[@curtisducati]

No but the Chinese brand is doing !

[@kalijasin]

Lol

[@Silidons91]

They don't need to lol

[@lesand5484]

You are wrong. GCN is discussing this despite Shimano sponsoring one of the current series of GCN tech where they put Dura-Ace components on an old frame. I like that GCN is more open again since they became independent of Discovery.

[@andreortizdecarvalho]

Shimano used to be positioned exactly where those brands are currently, they needed to copy SunTour products to make their line better, just to have an idea of how low they were (and we're talking about 70s), by the 90s Shimano was pretty much the industry leader. It's just a matter of time and money that chinese brands are willing to spend into making their products better. Markets can change fast. I personally think they have a much closer gap than Shimano's had in the 70s, I think they'll even it pretty soon.

[@Elinzar]

if they get even but they start costing as much as shimano then what would be the point?

[@marcvb3364]

@@Elinzar Still positive. More competition drives prices down.

[@Elinzar]

@@marcvb3364 thats more of a lie than ever before, they will just start price fixing eachother, like Nvidia and amd with their gpus

[@jtmuso]

The biggest difference is trust in the brand to support the consumer when stuff goes wrong. Having said that Shimano cranksets splitting and collapsing is not their best look…

[@songfta]

Where the Chinese brands (e.g. L-Twoo and Wheeltop) really excel is in providing a premium wireless shifting experience for folks with rim brakes (or those who have great mechanical disc calipers and don't want to faff about with hydraulic). And given there are now third-party options aplenty for chainsets (including a great power meter option from another Chinese brand, Magene) the bang-for-the-buck tilts toward the Chinese brands. Also notable: at least with the Wheeltop EDS groupset, it works with so many cassette setups, from 3 to 14 speeds. They are essentially future-proofing the groupset in ways that the big brands refuse to do, which shows a focus on the customer. the drawback is mostly in local bike shop support and easy warranty/tech support from the brands. While some have offices outside of China, most don't. That matters for folks who like having quick warranty replacement.

[@Silidons91]

Except Wheeltop kinda sucks

[@fabianbinder3681]

The moment wheeltop decides to stop their app, it’s bye bye to future proof. Same problem for electronic shifting of any other brand, but the odds are stacked against cheep Chinese brand in this case.

[@einundsiebenziger5488]

"Premium wireless shifting experience" but absolutely no customer service experience.

[@BioD86]

Oh snap, didn't know of the Magene powermeter. Need to tell @TraceVelo. I was going for 4iiii, but which is hardly in stock. The Magene are €100 less, need to do some research about them.

[@challacustica9049]

​@@fabianbinder3681and Shimano has already obsoleted generations of Di2. You're not safe anywhere with electronic.

[@WarHammerWH]

Element #37 in the periodic table is indeed Rubidium... I'm just wondering if Ollie knowing this is a good thing or not...

[@padmanabhaprasannasimha5385]

Well Dr. Bridgewood does have a PhD in Chemistry..

[@MackBXIII]

@@padmanabhaprasannasimha5385 holy...wow he is a doctor.

[@gcntech]

He’s the life of the party because he knows the atomic weight of Astatine.

[@bkmontgomery]

@@gcntechI mean… it’s not really a party until atomic weight of astatine is thrown out now is it?

[@thothofatlantis]

@@bkmontgomerywe all know it’s 210u…yes I googled it

[@kalleandersson916]

I´m combining a Sensah Team Pro with 105-components on my road bike for like 350usd. Hard to beat that

[@pastelink6767]

I bought a complete 105 mechanical 2x12 hydraulic brake groupset with everything including cranks cassette and chain for $420.

[@M5Dri3rz]

@@pastelink6767 That is amazing! Second hand?

[@MrReenie44]

UK price from Merlin is about £500 for 105 mechanical disk. And £850 for 105 Di2. Both of those are superior to the Chinese stuff for only a little bit more money, and that including postage and the 20% tax

[@dsmithmcse]

I've been using Sensah Empire Pro on my DIY Bamboo gravel bike for the past 2 years and it's pretty much flawless in performance. I ride the bike 3-4 times a week and the group set has never let me down. Don't get me wrong, I like the premium brands as well. My Mt. Bike has a SRAM Eagle Transmission Group, my Canyon Gravel bike uses Shimano GRX, and my Specialized Roubaix has Shimano Di2. But, those bikes came with those premium group sets. My DIY I built from scratch, so I purchased all components piece meal. I'm actually waiting for Wheeltop to release an electronic x1 group set to upgrade my Bamboo gravel bike. I'm not a racer, but I am an avid cyclist. I have pick and choose my cycling related purchase since I don't have an unlimited budget. I honestly feel that group sets from Sensah, L-Twoo, & Wheeltop perform just as well as the top tier brands. Case in point. I'm running a set of ICAN 50mm carbon wheels on my Roubaix. They cost a fraction of the price of the big brands like ENVY. But my ICAN wheel set, which I've been riding on for 7 years now, have never been touched and are as true as they were the day I got them. And roll forever.

[@abosworth]

Groupsets are absurdly expensive. I know they have cultivated and improved them over the years but the bottom line is they they are simply way over priced. I've actually got a Microshift groupset on my gravel bike and it is very solid. I really can't complain. It's not as quick as Shimano 105 but it is good enough for most riders. I'd be very curious to try out a Sensah groupset.

[@whynotride327]

Do it, you will not be disappointed (except maybe the FD).

[@chrisscott8362]

Microshift makes very good equipment.

[@abosworth]

@@whynotride327 what's wrong with the front derailleur?

[@whynotride327]

@@abosworth Mine is almost two years old so perhaps they have improved it. However, no matter what I tried, I could not get it to shift to my satisfaction. I ended up with a Force FD on one bike and a Rival FD on the another. They work fine so I don't think it was me. Hope this helps.

[@frazmars]

Ollie, that Dacia Sandero reference was perfect. Gosh, I miss the old Top Gear!

[@padmanabhaprasannasimha5385]

"The Dacia Sandero is taking the nation by storm...!!"

[@Nebulak187]

@@padmanabhaprasannasimha5385 isn't the Sandero the most sold car model in all of Europe for the last 5 years?

[@johnstrac]

The "would you pay less for a slightly inferior product" argument is why people buy Shimano and not Campagnolo (I've done it myself).

[@ralvesco]

that's also the answer to the question why shimano surpassed campy in the 90's and 00's and is what it is... the chinese groupsets are today what shimano was in the 80's in this field...

[@TESTA-CC]

Mechanical Vintage Shimano Groupset With DownTube Shifters For The Win 🤙🤙

[@CarlBaravelli]

98% of the performance of DA and 75% the cost is called an expensive ultegra groupset

[@doctorscoot]

honestly, isn't ultegra 75% of the performance and 98% of the cost :-P

[@belverticale]

@@doctorscoot Supposedly it's identical performance, just heavier.

[@doctorscoot]

@@belverticale I’m just being cheeky lol

[@godlikecat]

@@belverticalejust how ultegra it’s the same thing as 105 but heavier in the end, they’re all the same thing but lighter and pricier

[@bbnd5476]

​@@godlikecatDA and Ultegra have the same tech. 105 doesn't.

[@Onigure]

My girlfriend's roadbike now have a Sensah front derailleur and now she can actually shifts her chainrings! 😅 Learn from that SRAM!

[@bikeanddogtripsvirtualcycling]

was just checking up on hoe titanium is actually 3d printed. Titanium is 3D printed using a variety of technologies, including: Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) or Select Laser Melting (SLM) A laser melts fine titanium powder to create a design layer by layer. The powder is applied in layers over a box, and a laser beam solidifies each layer. The model is then removed from the powder bed, and any support structures are manually removed. Binder Jetting Similar to PBF, but instead of a laser, a binder is deposited over the metal powder. Bound Powder Extrusion Metal powders are bound in a waxy polymer, melted, and printed. Direct Energy Deposition (DED) A high-intensity energy source, like a laser or beam, melts titanium powder or wire as it's deposited onto a substrate. DED can create large parts at a high material deposition rate.

[@massimoserafini8115]

No, I’d rather pay $26,000 for the new SRAM axs.

[@rc8rider]

😂

[@M5Dri3rz]

All one time use products too. Throw own your power meter once your chain rings are worn. I have AXS eTap and I am plagued a bit by the lack of compatibility with anything else.

[@pierrex3226]

Hahaha savage!

[@macsdiving]

@@M5Dri3rz I thought the power meter was on the spider?

[@StratoJohn]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese group sets do compete with the main 3 and actually match their quality. The reason I say this is because there are similar opinions on the car market too; years ago Japanese cars were thought of as cheap and inferior compared to western alternatives, now they're known for reliability and performance if you look at the hero cars or the 90s. Then we laughed at Korean cars, now they are also known for their reliability and in some cases performance. I don't think it will be long until Chinese cars and cycling products compete with well established brands

[@yisraels4555]

I have been driving a Chinese car (BYD) for the last year. They HAVE caught up. They learned the lesson from cheap imports... Maybe not all of the Chinese cars are there yet, but western brands should be very worried, and trying to figure out how to compete.

[@lovemesomedetail]

let me just throw in the fact that not all asian countries are the same… comparing korean, japanese and chinese products does point out big differences in development strategy and quality standards

[@StratoJohn]

@@lovemesomedetail I see what you're saying but I do think China's reputation for churning out low quality goods at bargain basement prices is shifting. There are a few people out there that rate an un named Chinese Companies frame and wheelsets and also their customer service, research and development etc. Time will tell I guess!

[@lovemesomedetail]

@@StratoJohn ​​⁠i totally agree with you, i was just adding a little thought! i actually purchased my current wheelset directly from china to see if it’s any good and i’m very pleased with the product itself. customer service experience wasn’t exceptional, i think cause of lack of dedicated employees and language barrier… but if nothing breaks, i won’t have to deal with them anyways!

[@viet0ne]

​@@StratoJohnexcept it's the shit products designed and approved by companies producing in China and not specifically what's made in China is bad. IPhones are largely manufactured in China and are still considered the best phones both in engineering and design. The world that chose to manufacturer cheap products in China are the reason there's a reputation of low quality China products.

[@vo2maximus177]

I'm gonna wait five years and see how the longevity stands up. I've had Campag Record and Super Record groupsets which have lasted 10 years and probably 30,000 miles, so long as you don't crash it and you service the gear selector mechanism in the levers, it just keeps on going. Then when it's time to buy new stuff, there's always someone on eBay with a retro bike (that's a REAL retro bike Alex 😉) who wants to buy your classic Campag stuff.

[@BamboobicycleclubOrg]

During the COVID-19 pandemic, we sourced many Chinese components. These components gained prominence after SRAM established a factory in China, which later closed. Many former employees from that factory have since launched their own brands. The quality of these products is impressive, with brands like LT Woo standing out, particularly with their newer, wireless offerings. As major brands continue to manufacture in China and simply rebrand open-mould products (for instance, five UK brands all offer the same Carbonda frame), more Chinese brands are emerging with products that are just as good, if not better. A great example is Winspace wheels. As consumers, we often pay a premium due to multiple intermediaries. This is driving a trend toward direct-to-consumer sales, which is likely to dominate the market moving forward.

[@Stickygoma]

I couldn't be happier with my Wheeltop Group. Performed 100% right out of the box and the Micro-adjutment is AMAZING!...and full wireless....

[@pierrex3226]

MTB?

[@Stickygoma]

@@pierrex3226 They sell a MTB rear mech with a single wireless two button shifter. I think its $500. The road/gravel groups are more bang for the buck since it comes with Hood shifters/brake leavers and brakes for 800$. I personally didnt use the brake calipers. Kept my shimano calipers on there.

[@mommamooney]

My concern with Temu offerings is that a lot of their products and designs are stolen designs. There’s a lot of engineering espionage that goes on. The business I used to work for made parts for an irrigation company. They constantly had to change designs because Chinese companies stole their designs and significantly undercut them in pricing due to making parts with lesser quality materials and cheap labor

[@dr.brockhaus5548]

I think the Problem is, a less known brand has to offer a comparibal product for half the price to make a real impact. For me 75 percent of the Price is to much risk for Not knowing how the longterm spareparts situation is. The reputation of a brand for havig spareparts for dacedaes is huge, for me at least.

[@gcntech]

That sounds like a sensible answer. A small saving isn't worth the risk, but a significant cost reduction starts to look like a possibility worth considering

[@sutsut5157]

I have sensah reflex brifters and LTwoo rd fd. Both are durable and spot on in shifting and I also race it. But the noticeable cons is they were heavy.

[@siimot]

Same set up on mine sensah brifters and ltwoo rd and it works amazing :) better than my shimano stuff.

[@hankamania]

I've been running Ltwoo GR9 Hydraulic 11 speed on my gravel bike since it came out. I'd been a loyal Campagnolo user for almost 20 years, but had put Sensah SRX Pro on the gravel bike when I first built it. When I saw that Ltwoo was using Campag-style controls, that was an easy choice for me, especially with multiple shifts in either direction, as even Ekar doesn't do that. A couple seasons in, I have zero complaints.

[@a1white]

I assure you, my next groupset will most definitely NOT be from Temu

[@curtisducati]

Not a hope I would have Chinese parts on my Milani Icon , how to look stupid at a club meet with tech from Ting Tong in Ping Pong .....

[@richardharris8538]

Why?

[@richardharris8538]

@@curtisducati That sounds prejudiced, like the talk of 'Japcrap' back in the 70s.

[@craigfoulkes]

​@@curtisducatiyou sound like a knob. Glad you don't represent my cycling club

[@joaomac7]

Wheeltop have is own page, not in Temu 😂…. I buy a group set from sensa to replace an old group set and for 120euros works amazingly.

[@MiddleAgedMike]

I was more comfortable buying a Canyon, a formally unknown brand to me, because I started seeing it on the podium. Now in my brain, it’s a deal on a good bike rather than a cheap bike with a few good components on it.

[@petertreadway]

I was sent the Wheeltop group a while ago and have to say I’m really impressed with it. It basically wireless electronic upgrade kit for anyone who wants electronic shifting on an existing bike but doesn’t want to pay for components they already have from SRAM/Shimano, etc. I’ve also installed the mechanical hydraulic brake LTWOO group on my son’s gravel bike and, similarly, the quality is incredible for the price. I paid £130 for hydraulic shifters, brakes and front and rear derailleur, including all the cables/housings and hoses. The mainstream companies have, for a lot of people, priced themselves out of the race!

[@fleurdelispens]

I'm putting an Ltwoo groupset on my next bike! I managed to get the R9 2x11 hydraulic disc mechanical shifting plus a crankset and cassette for about $400.

[@georgeisenbarg8302]

You keep saying that you don't need pro-proofed bikes, parts etc. You don't, but what you don't seem to understand is that I cannot test the frame set, components etc. on my own and KNOW it will hold up to more than I can dish out. If Wout can jam up climbs and sprint like he does I know the bike will take more than I can EVER put out. But I don't KNOW if something that I find on the internet for such and such a price will hold up for a few thousand kilos. Admittedly we don't see how many replacements the pros go through but I am pretty confident that if a pro team was constantly breaking frames the team would drop them. You cannot afford your riders being put out of commission or missing a podium due to cheaply made stuff. And there appear to be enough influencers that have purchased said cheap frame sets and proven that as a whole, they cannot all be trusted to present the quality that a current name brand must maintain to be at the top of the market.

[@deabreu.tattoo]

There are quite a few channels here on KZbin dedicated to testing exactly these products. Search for Trace Velo and China Cycling, they're both great at that.

[@StephenChenney]

You beat me to it. What pros using the product tells me is that it is reliable and can take thousands of kms without problems. It's a proxy for quality control, basically.

[@rolling-along]

Yes. I was thinking the same thing. A pro peloton, using gear, doesn’t mean I’m trying to be a pro (wishing I could be, maybe), but it does tell me that if they put hundreds and hundreds of km’s into that gear and it works. Then it’s suitable for my purposes. The extra cost is often about the engineering refinement to make it lighter and still not fail. To engineer it NOT to fail, someone has to pay for all the failed parts.

[@deabreu.tattoo]

@@georgeisenbarg8302 there are quite a few channels that do long term and hardcore tests of these components. Search for Trace Velo and China Cycling, they're both great

[@LordVarkson]

Riders ride what they're paid to ride, and they're backed by cars filled with replacement bikes. If you actually cared about durability (you don't, you're a fred), you'd be riding the components designed for riders who don't have a team car, instead of coping about your dura-ace addiction.

[@frazmars]

I’ve been closely following the Chinese electronic groupsets through channels like Tracevelo, china cycling, and GC performance. Seems like they’re almost there but still need some more refinement, and consistency in experience/manufacturing. The latter being because different reviewers have had varied experiences with these, particularly the Ltwoo eRx. Once I get some solid reviews and am convinced those issues are solved , I think I might pull the trigger.

[@owenchase4017]

I am running the Ltwoo 2x7 drop bar shifter set with a MicroNew rear derail and getting excellent index shifting on my 40 yo Takara road bike with a 1x6 drive train. If anyone else is looking for drop bar index shifting that will work with older 10 and 12 speed bikes from the 70s and 80s, the Micronew RD is the secret ingredient. Although advertised as a seven speed rear derail, it did not work with a seven speed freewheel. After some careful measuring, I determined that the RD moves 5.5 mm per shift, not the 5 mm needed for a seven speed freewheel. But it is perfect for 5 and 6 speed freewheels and cassettes.

[@kevvjj2629]

The Silca 3D titanium SRAM hanger is £125!!! This is hardly a sacrificial part. My rear derailleur costs £70...

[@the.communist]

125£, taking the piss, who on earth needs a 3d titanium hanger?

[@adelmur1]

Buying those groupsets from those market places means that you have to rely on a reseller and not necessarily the brand. Now what happens when some brands are actually proposing those products as OEM to their customers with a proper after sale service ? (Some brands are actually proposing L-twoo. And now customers are faced with bikes with better equipment (wheels) for a given price. I can give a quick answer. Customers will choose a good wheel set over a SRAM or Shimano.

[@cruachan1191]

The new groupset providers will probably come in at the lower end of the market. At the moment for many of us there's a brand loyalty to Shimano, as they make so many tiers of groupset, so cheaper bikes have Claris/Sora/Tiagra on them. Saw on another forum today, someone was looking at a Boardman vs 2 bikes from big brands. All bikes the same price, the Boardman had rim brake mechanical 105 on it and both of the brand name bikes had Claris. If Boardman or Triban for example start offering Chinese groupsets with higher specs than the equivalent Shimano ones for the same price, plus have warranties and parts available, then they'll eat in to that market.

[@MicroageHD]

I'd rather saw my leg off than buy something from Temu.

[@curtisducati]

Hahahaha GCN paid for by China now !

[@rob-c.]

It’s all on Ali Express

[@gcntech]

A bit extreme, and what’s the origin of the hate towards this platform? Just curious 🤔

[@seanc5718]

@@rob-c. equally trash website

[@Nebulak187]

Yeah i prefer aliexpress. Temu has too many fake scam products Since most chinese sellers for cycling and table tennis goods left ebay a long while ago I've moved on to aliexpress. Never had a problem except for long shipping times and one time(out of like 80 orders) where the item just disappeared. But I got refunded in full. Shipping times vary alot though. Could be 3 weeks, could be 2 months, mind you I live in Austria

[@SpecialeyesRider]

Is Temu now selling studio lights?

[@SlowLegsandaDirtyBike]

Wow, I wonder if that is why all the presenters look like men? Maybe it's the lighting.

[@gordonmarshall7743]

I built my first Gravel bike with Sensah SRX group set 1x11, and it works a treat. While it's not as polished as my Shimano GRX, it was a third of the price. I've since retrofitted an old alloy frame with another SRX replacing an older Shimano set and has given it a new lease of life.

[@roguecode2354]

The thing that takes my mind from obsessing over parts and how my bike is looking is when you are actually riding. So, I would agree that the scenery would overtake the bike and its parts. The ride takes my mind off the bike way more than when I am not riding.

[@masoodrehman118]

One thing of note is one of the companies you talked about Wheeltop is over 73 years old. Only Shimano and Compagnolo are older. Lesser known brands like FALCON are older than SRAM as well. It would be hard to stay around that long without a somewhat decent product.

[@LordVarkson]

Yeah, it took Shimano about 50 years to become relevant in the cycling scene.

[@AlbertBuckinghamEllison]

I think all of the frame and groupset and wheel manufacturers are at a point where they have to watch their ass. Have a look at the industry as a whole, most of the above are manufactured in Asia anyway, with highly skilled staff now forming their own companies and cutting the markup, then selling direct to consumer. They don't have the sexy brand label of Enve, Canyon or Capagnolo, nor the massive marketing or R&D budget, they're simply piggybacking off other brand's designs and incorporating the best aspects into theirs. We mock the 'made in China' label but some brands are beginning to hit the bullseye now, often with superior quality at a fraction of the price.

[@KerryJapan1]

I just installed the Sensah Empire group set and am pretty blown away with how easy it was to install and get indexed and how remarkably good it shifts. I was, and probably am still a Shimano fanboi, but this experience certainly has opened my eyes.

[@babychaos]

I've got L-Twoo groupsets on a couple of bikes, and they are amazing for the price (and can be bought for way less than £750 as quoted). The big thing for me is that they can handle multiple cassette ranges (7-speed upto 13-speed) via software, so are fantastic for upgrading. You can take an older 10-speed mechanical bike and upgrade to electronic shifting, then later get a 12-speed chainset and cassette, and keep the same mechs and shifter hoods.

[@andrewmcalister3462]

I love that Alex is now owning the whole Dura Ace thing. 😂❤

[@jbarner13]

I haven't seen a lot of Microshift stuff, but I pulled a bent long-cage derailleur of theirs out of the junk bucket at our local bike co-op a few weeks ago and took it home to straighten it out. While it wasn't junk in the same sense as the Eastern Block and off-brand Asian stuff of 50 years ago, it did not strike me as a part that was designed to provide thousands of miles of service. There was a flimsiness to it, and several small details that seemed like cost-cutting shortcuts. On a different topic, that 3D-printed derailleur hanger raised an eyebrow. Here's a suggestion--put the bike on the stand and, while pedaling, push the lower derailleur pivot sideways with your hand. Notice that it takes very little force to move the chain from cog to cog. Now push on the upper derailleur pivot and notice how it doesn't flex at all, no matter how hard you push on it. Now tell me again, with a straight face, that increasing rigidity in this part has any noticeable effect on shifting performance.

[@LordVarkson]

You wouldn't look at a Tourney or Shimano-series component and come to the conclusion that Dura-Ace is the same grade, right? Microshift make components that are Tourney-level or lower, up to perhaps Sora or Tiagra-grade components.

[@jasoneiserich8638]

I’ve installed and used the Wheeltop EDS-TX wireless groupset (both disc and rim brake) and I’m really quite satisfied. It’s a bit of a challenge to set up, but once you fully understand the app to index the gears properly, it nearly functions equally to Shimano Ultegra Di2. I’m certain they are refining the technology based on feedback, and it will be top notch.

[@katropanigerry2984]

Yes its as good less price .....but how durable...CHINA.? Maybe if its 50% of the price.

[@richardharrowell7779]

I have been using Sensah Team Pro brifters on my bike for the last 3 years and love them. Single lever and a light control feel. They have been completely reliable. Cost AU$118 for the pair. That is about US$80. I already had an 11sp 105 rear derailleur and a Ultegra R8000 front derailleur so I stuck with them.

[@markdurdle7710]

The biggest advantage of the Chinese groupsets (for me) is you can use them with any cassette size. It is a pity Shimano or SRAM don't allow their groupsets to support this.

[@MrReenie44]

Yes , it's only a software/firm ware issue , would cost Shimano nothing extra to do the same .

[@mikesmith2864]

Video topic: contents of presenters' race bags. I did a bit for our shop's newsletter many years ago (before we needed to carry spare batteries) that was well received. I assume yours would have emergency Jaffa cakes and Haribos instead of fig newtons and M&Ms.

[@123moof]

I've got two L-Twoo GRT groupsets on my gravel bikes and they are pretty decent. One is a year old and has over 2,500 miles so far. It has had few issues, and gives me drop bar 12 speed shifting with a 10-51t cassette for about $240 (when I bought it) for the mini groupset. Only issue was a bolt loosening that holds the cage on, and it has been fine since I tightened it back down. The second copy only has a couple hundred miles and is a testament to being pretty chuffed with the first one. I only wish it had a dropper lever integrated on the left.

[@Juuuuuuuush]

Thanks so much for taking a look at the build!

[@oplkfdhgk]

no because i prefer aliexpress but i am almost certain that it will be basically the same product anyway. 😀

[@TaichoCyclist]

I have a TIME Alpe d'Huez 2023 built around Wheel Top EDS TX and EliteWheel DRIVE 45D. They simply deliver value and cycling pleasure. I used to be a Campagnolo and Shimano user who have nearly 25 years between them (mostly C). Prior to EDS TX, I have also used the Sensah Empire Pro (12S) - Gen 2 with rectified shifting catch made of alloy. They just worked despite being a mechanical groupset with the carbon bits added in for the cosmetic value. Fortunately, my experience with these Chinese groupsets have been postiive despite the quirks they bring along.

[@roberthull7608]

“Hey Siri” set reminder for four years time.

[@gcntech]

It would be more fun to set a timer for 35,064 hours

[@lux-wattage]

Reminder set in my calendar for 29 August 2028: Alex's 100 mile barefoot bike ride.

[@iamcliffordwells]

I am glad Ollie is back. As to budget group sets and other parts, not all of us have the money to spend 10 grand on a bike.

[@kaltonian]

some really good points raised here about brands, i agree with the fact that if a no name groupset was used in a GC race that yes it would catapult it to being a groupset to aim for along with the top branded named groupsets, years ago 90% of the public would not of bought a scoda or a Kia car, but with new materials & designs buying one of these brands is now an option due to the level of quality being so high that you can't possibly loose out,

[@christianwirth6965]

I have Light Bicycle Wheelsets and I recently bought Farsports One Piece Cockpit. All of these products are flawless, very well designed and engineered and from tests I have seen lighter and stiffer than their big brand counterparts. If one then takes into account that the equivalent products from name brands are most often made in China/Taiwan as well, sometimes even from the companies that now make DTC products themselves, it is a no brainer for me to get the less expensive and better components. Light Bicycle also have brilliant customer service, replying very quickly and slick in perfect english to any enquiries. I also have had an unfortunate crash where a car went into me breaking my front wheel and they adhered to their crash replacement policy and I got a new one on a discount immediately. When Groupsets come to the same standard as these components, meaning their engineering and design is on par with the big brands, then I would consider them as well. But from what I have seen we are not yet at that point, Shimano and SRAM are as of yet quite a long way ahead. But I do think that it's only a matter of time until brands like LTWOO close the gap and we will have more players in the market.

[@rickhellard1406]

I swapped out my old 10 spd Dura-Ace for 11 spd Microshift Centos, and have been thrilled with the performance. Total for both derailleurs and shifters was $370 Cdn. This was absolutely a great and successful experiment. Granted, it is mechanical, but so was the Shimano option.

[@LordVarkson]

Y tho? Was the extra speed really worth choosing lower quality components?

[@rickhellard1406]

@@LordVarkson so far, I have been quite happy. It also allowed for a larger cog in the back so my weak legs can get me up hills easier.

[@bjm2762]

It also boils down to whether they will still be in business if you want replacement parts.

[@spk.rockets]

bought a set of Micronew 10 speed brifters for $49.00 usd. They work shockingly well. I have not been easy on them at all and they have performed flawlessly.

[@abdulmajidhussain7942]

Appreciate the honesty.

[@andrewking1122]

When talking about cycling and heritage brands there are just five that come to mind; Raleigh, Schwinn, Sturmey-Archer, Brooks, Campagnolo. But as to would I choose a product from a newer company, sure if it is a good value for my money.

[@recstoppauseplay]

Hi, speaking of bicycle tech that doesn't have anything to do with today's topic ... it just hit me that what we cyclists need is a way to lock the handlebars & stem with the head tube & fork in some clean, unobtrusive way. It occurred to me while lifting my bike onto the carrier on the back of the car and being hit on the head by a swinging handlebar and front wheel. If I could lock up the stem and fork to the head tube it would make it much easier to set the bike into the carrier or to lift the bike on to a repair stand. (I wouldn't need a special gadget to keep the front wheel from swinging back and forth). It would also make it impossible for a thief to ride away with the bike. It isn't possible to ride a bike that you can't steer. The most unobservable system I thought of would be a key receptacle on the head tube just under the angle to the down tube with a dust cover on it. Food for thought or has someone already come up with this somewhere?

[@g.west2372]

For me, it took a dumb fall with my ribble ultra SLR - denting the downtube and a carbon-repair shop that takes 7 months (instead of 8-10 weeks) and still counting.... My reaction this summer was to buy a 550€ carbon frame, building it up with 105-mechanical and using the wheels of the ribble... Invested ~1200€ for a carbon bike, with mechanical shifting and hydrolic disc-brakes, 8.8kg (incl. pedals)... already got ~770km on it... works as it is supposed to be.

[@MrCyclist]

I will stay with Shimano 105. The difference is price is marginal for my budget and no issues on replacement parts around the world when and where I bike.

[@angela-onesroman8873]

This most recent camera you guys are using is fantastic 👍🏽👍🏽...

[@tomjkelleher]

I have Microshift shifters on my DIY built gravel bike, and Shimano Tiagra on my Trek Domane. I completely agree with Ollie on cost vs experience. Does Shimano perform better? Little yes. Does Microshift work well enough to enjoy the ride? BIG YES! 👍

[@andreemurray7039]

Unless the top teir group set's don't reduce the price I think the Chinese brands will slowly take over on price

[@einundsiebenziger5488]

... top-tier* groupsets* (plural, no apostrophe). Given how questionable the quality of these components is, and how non-existent their customer support, they are not cheap enough.

[@frazergoodwin4945]

He might have forgotten his lap top - but Ollie remembered to bring his dropper seat post.... and at 11:57 deployed it 🙂

[@elindred]

The biggest hesitancy when considering aliexpress group sets is quality control and reliability. For the price I don't expect the best performance, but i'd need to know they won't leave me stuck on the side of the road, or worse. If some reputable bike brand started speccing production bikes with them I think you'd see more people adopting them.

[@Denny-Nien]

I had a grevel on Chinese group set. Had it for two months, sold and bought the same bicycle, but on shimano Claris. Just so so much better.

[@madonius]

Imho the biggest advantage of 3D-printed derailleur hangers, manufacturers don't need to keep stock. They can make them to order as long as they have the files/parameters. This ensures availability far beyond "we do have some in stock".

[@petercheuk9019]

I have been using Campagnolo integrated brake/shift levers for quite a while, now. I only have one bike that has Shimano integrated brake/shift levers and every time I ride that bike I make a few misshifts until I get used to it then when I go back to my Campy bikes I make misshifts until I get used to it again so I've decided to only use Campagnolo shifters on my drop bar bikes. I assembled a gravel bike using an old pair of Campagnolo 10-speed integrated shifters but Campagnolo doesn't make a derailleur from that era that can handle the gear range of a gravel bike so I went with the LTwoo 11-speed 1X gravel setup. So far its been working great. I'm considering building my next bike with the hydraulic Chorus groupset but that will depend if I have the budget for it.

[@suhdud4646]

Ive got the Helix CS version of the wheels and really am enjoying them and have about 3000km on them with no issues. The Drive Helix SS wheels feature set is really good for the price. I might just pick up a set because of just how easily servicable they will be and to use as my daily wheelset and the CS be the "race day" wheel set.

[@Frostbiker]

Different people have different priorities. Some will care a lot about a brand's name and purported qualities. Some think that groupsets have become largely commoditized and will rather spend money on other components. Some prioritize style or tradition. Not everybody is trying to maximize performance and weight.

[@PeterFulford]

Shimano's support website is great for us folks who like to work on their bikes. Their detailed parts list and assembly illustrations for pretty much any piece of equipment they've made over the years take much of the "surprise" out of DIY. I never hear of the same level of support from L-Twoo, etc.\

[@williamsylvia3962]

For me, it either has to be dirt cheap so I can afford to lose the money, or it needs to be ridden by a pro team. If it’s ridden by a pro team it’s more than likely going to be a quality brand because they’re spending money on their brand image. I don’t think you spend money trying to build a brand image and NOT support your product, so I feel like my money is safe. I would rather spend 200% on a quality product that I know I will love, than gamble on some off brand that has questionable support. It’s sort of like buying insurance which is worth it in my opinion. If I build a Chinese bike meets the specs of a canyon CFR and it doesn’t meet the performance, it may have been half the price of a CFR but it was still $5k! And that is just too much money to gamble with. I would rather spend the $10k on the CFR because there won’t be any returns on the Chinese bike. It’s well worth the extra money in my opinion.

[@eddiewards123]

What usually helps keeps cost down is when a brand isnt sponsoring a world tour team. I had a tour at Orro bikes in the UK, and thats what keeps their cost down. They dont have to supply loads of kit to teams and forward that cost to the consumer. It becomes a cycle, people go for brands that pro teams sre using, but thats more costly because theyre sponsored.

[@whynotride327]

I have two Sensah groups and two Microsoft groups and their performance is outstanding. BTW, I also have Sram and Shimano stuff so it isn't like I don't have a basis for comparison. The Chinese stuff is every bit the equal of the Sram and Shimano equipment at an obscenely lower price point. It makes me wonder what the profit margin and ledger sheet looks like for S and S?

[@ignore-fv7rc]

Please do a vid featuring a build with the top Chinese bits and let us know how it compares to a super bike . For example: Tarmac frame, Elite wheels, LTwoo shifters and brakes, lightweight cassette, Magene PM

[@razvancatalin8003]

I think you guys are wrong. You are asking the question if you should buy a product with 98% performance for 75% price. Sure, you pay for the brand name but you also get something that is really important for us mortals: reliability. I bought a Triban 500 as recommended by you guys, and it's incredible how much bike I got for so little money, but every couple of months something breaks on. You guys review products for a couple of days, but cheaper products often have a hidden downside, that is usually reliability. I would always prefer an entry level Mercedes vs a top level Dacia. I apply the same principle when sourcing parts for my bike.

[@sinnaru6286]

Depends on price, but I saw shimano di2 105 groupset for similar price as chinese ones, so would go for 105 personally.

[@obriaind]

Shimano aren’t a “newer” brand. They started making freewheels in 1921. Dura-Ace has been around since 1973.

[@LordVarkson]

Sure, but they didn't win TdF until Lance, Campagnolo was winning almost every years, starting all the way back in the 40s.

[@obriaind]

@@LordVarkson They’ve been in the pro peloton since the 70s. Plenty of legacy brands have never won the Tour.

[@solero7378]

To comment on the title of this, no, my next groupset will NOT be Chinese, and i won't be getting my next groupset off of Temu. It's difficult not to buy stuff made in China, but when you buy Chinese products from a Chinese company, you need to think about the volitility in the world right now.

[@marcvb3364]

You're still buying from China if you buy from a known brand, plus you now pay a big margin just for the brand.

[@anasgtr]

Shimano are definitely a heritage brand also. They're over 100 years old! Japanese craftmanship and attention to detail all the way ❤

[@WheelersAtLarge]

Ltwoo, Sensah and Wheeltop will sell me just the bits I need and it's makes them attractive to me as an upgrade.

[@malcolmsearle7625]

The thing I miss from the discussion about small brand vs big brand groupsets is the availability of replacement parts. I had Microshift on one of my bikes for a couple of years. It worked great. But one day I needed to replace a part my LBS couldn't help me with. It wasn't readily available online either. The solution? I switched back to Shimano.

[@joaomac7]

Wheeltop disc vs 105 di2 disc i Will choose di2. I give priority to reliability and support in service. I will choose Wheeltop if we talk in bike with rim brakes because new groups don’t support rim brakes anymore….. 650euros for a complete electronic group set is very good!

[@wykydgt]

I'm pulling the trigger on an L-TWOO GR7 1x10 groupset with hydraulic brakes to upgrade my Poseidon X Ambition. Yep, gravel on a budget. I'll update when it arrives and I've put it through its paces.

[@davidkirkby5218]

I have just purchased the new wheel top eds for my Orbea Avant.. it’s a fantastic so far .. I had already upgraded the crank to Chinese power meter one so getting electronic for £620 was worth it to me

[@Shellewell]

I miss the old Roubaix with the quirky seat stays. Instantly recognisable!

[@IanCoveny]

For the love of all things good and holy, avoid L-Twoo. Excited for another option to the “big three” I bought two groupsets (road and gravel) for some recent builds. The road groupset had issues with the derailleurs (plural). The first one failed after 200 miles, and the replacement failed after 100. They refused to send another, saying it was an issue with how I installed it, but it was installed by a UCl pro mechanic who is familiar with Chinese groupsets. The gravel groupset ended up with a similar issue, but I think this was actually with the shifter not derailleur. Regardless, they refused to warranty any of it. So now I'm out WAY more than if l'd just bought SRAM/ Shimano in the first place. With the nightmare that is L-Twoo “customer service”, and mechanical 105/Rival prices these days, just go the mainstream route.

[@blissbouwerij4033]

Desperate to get a bike on the road. Best bike for the lowest cost. Sub €200? Picked up a 2014 VanTijl with busted front hub and 9sp ultegra shifters for €80. New 10sp shifters, cassette and chain from Sensah total €80, 2nd hand front wheel €15, bar tape and cable set €10, and a set of riding bib, shirt, gloves, glasses. Shoes and helmet were in the cupboard. Feels glorious overtaking those €3000 entry level electronic groupset bikes every time

[@ojs637]

For me it's all about durability of components, and the potential availability of parts down the line. That is why it would be worth spending more on a named brand you trust to be there 10-15 years in the future.

[@rickhellard1406]

I think the Topeak saddle bag with the tools included so they fit properly is a great idea. They should include tire levers and maybe CO2 cartridge and inflator.