Why YouTuber apologies always suck

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[@lotrgeek22]

Somerton spending the video crying about losing his best friend over this while simultaneously throwing that best friend under the bus at every opportunity was something.

[@GoeTeeks]

Oh but like, don't blame him though.

[@christineherrmann205]

No one will ever beat Lindsey Ellis acknowledging her early issues and drinking while she absolutely debunks all the other bullsh*t sent her way.

[@tmage23]

Anytime one of her videos opens with her holding an open bottle of alcohol, you're in for a treat.

[@HeyLetsDoAThing]

That wasn’t an apology video in the first place because she never had much to apologize for. As you say, it was an acknowledgment and debunking video.

[@unseenmolee]

lets not encourage ppl to drink on camera. i dont want to see anyone coming online crying and throwing up abt how they fucked up but its not really their fault... naw that sounds like an awful time. i fucking hate when anyone drinks on camera but to do it for an apology just takes away from any sincerity you could have. and im not trying to shade lindsey cuz i dont think that she really made an apology video in the same way as the rest of the examples in this video. i do stand by that i dont want to see anyone drinking on camera, but i dont hold it against ppl who do. but as an addict its difficult to sit thru to say the least. its not cute or fun imo, it feels really weird and kinda a step too far. i would never go on camera while im doing any other kind of drug, idk why alcohol is any different

[@jaybee4118]

@@unseenmoleethe alcohol is usually a joke and most of the time it’s not going to be actual alcohol.

[@calebmarmon1310]

@@HeyLetsDoAThing the nuance is that she did acknowledge and apologize for the incidents that were out of line. They just weren’t the biggest accusations, nor the central point being made.

[@michaelbiscay9836]

I also think a key to a successful apology is, you know, actually being sorry.

[@marocat4749]

Also you feel the person actually means it when they say they will do the hard work to get better there. Ther is an entire different energy from really doing the owning up and learn, and engage with criticism, and lipservice or practical reasons. I think feeling bad is often accomplied with , yeah i genuinly want to learn to never ever do that again if i can. They can be short and yes , but i will say i regret that , but also a ireally focus on what i can do now, no words will be enough, thats why i dont drag it out. something personal, often messy, is way more believable.

[@aazhie]

Agree period it seems like most of the real apologies were about things from very long ago in a person's life. Jenna marbles and Lindsey Ellis both admitted. They were being dumb or making a poor decision , or whatever when they did something problematic. And they had many years of being a lot more wholesome and genuine than we saw of their edgy, bad behaviors or comments

[@grey29825]

I remembered Jenna Marbles apology video was taken really well, though I think part of that was that a) no one was really actively calling for her cancellation as loudly as they were for other KZbinrs at the time b) she disappeared off the platform permanently after apologizing, she clearly wasn’t doing it only to be forgiven c) she didn’t cry or make excuses and she seemed genuinely very ashamed of her past behavior But like Jenna is one of the rare ones and few other KZbinrs meet the above criteria

[@angiep2229]

I would only add that James Somerton's apology in particular pissed me off because he also shared about his attempt to unalive himself. That is terrible and I want him to receive support, but it's absolutely unacceptable for him to put that on the people he has harmed.

[@Cesaryeyo]

As someone who struggles with depression, I hate the idea of "taking myself hostage" but also think that sometimes you feel you really need something to get out of that state and it's important to convey to your loved ones the importance of it. However, this was very different from that, he really seemed to be trying to inspire pity, he didn't even ask for something specific to help him, he just tried to deflect responsibility and disarm critics. Yeah, I was pissed too.

[@Tustin2121]

This double pissed me off because a) he does it in the first minute of the video with no warning whatsoever, to the point that when we in the former fans of Somerton’s discord were sharing it, we had to put trigger warnings next to the link. And b) it’s a pretty common tactic of abusers and manipulators to pull those kinds of claims, so even if he was telling the truth about that, it did him absolutely no favors to open with that.

[@Checkers1993ify]

Yeah, that's because it's a manipulation tactic to even bring it up. The responsible thing for him to have done would have been to do as many takes as it took for him not to be a crying mess in that video.

[@megtoon1304]

It reminds me of how Bo Burhnam apologized for his past actions. In many interviews he states that you don't have to forgive him and that he takes full responsibility for being a dick and punching down. Not to mention his song "Problematic" making fun of these half assed apologies while also showing a relatively good way of apologizing for his past actions. He truly does emphasize how you don't have to forgive him, takes accountability, and that he has changed by no longer doing any of those harmful actions. It's the best kind of apology one can do in regards to saying harmful and offensive stuff in the past.

[@sarahwatts7152]

Agree! Plus that song talks about how people are dumb when they're young, which is a big part of his particular case - while still not excusing that behavior

[@0ctaviaPony]

I mean, the answer is that apologies on youtube in general arent about being accountable. Theyre about damage control and trying to salvage their channel which they usually rely on for their livelihood. When you are afraid of having your financial rug being pulled out from under you, human nature is to go into preservation mode and that tends to make you overlook the actual problem.

[@samuelbarber6177]

I think that is basically it. We certainly saw this with Somerton’s “apology”. It’s a psychological manipulation that a lot of children will try to play if they’re caught doing something they know they shouldn’t. Play on people’s sympathies. Somerton tried to get people on his side by basically saying he tried to kill himself over “what happened” and “not crediting people” (similarly, he wouldn’t dare use the word “plagiarism”).

[@WorkingonTwos]

Yeah they aren't actually sorry for their behaviour. There are just sorry they got caught.

[@keelanbarron928]

Yeah. it's like apologising to your boss at a job, you're really only apologising because they give you money.

[@hornylink]

it doesn't make you overlook the actual problem, bad people that make the fake apologies were just going to over look the actual problem anyway cause they don't see it as a problem, only getting caught as a problem.

[@meiketorkelson4437]

Superbly put.

[@NotSoCivilEngineer]

“What are your thoughts?” The tonberry plushie in the background makes me feel like if I issue a bad apology, it’s going to one-hit KO me in my sleep.

[@KingdomFantasy669]

Between the Tonberry Plushie and the bunny with a knife, no bad apologies allowed

[@Bagofnowt]

A KZbinr apology I think did work well is TomSka. During his Scrap'd week series, he brought up some old, long since deleted videos that nobody would've otherwise known about. They contained racism and homophobia among other things - but he said what he did wrong, showed how he's changed his behaviour since, and that he understands now *why* it was wrong. It wasn't "I'm sorry that I got caught", it wasn't "I'm sorry if I offended you", and it wasn't "I'm saying I'm sorry so you'll keep buying my stuff".

[@CouncilofGeeks]

It probably helps that so far as I know, nobody was demanding an apology about this at the time he did it. So it him taking initiative rather than trying to cover up a problem.

[@Bagofnowt]

@@CouncilofGeeks Yes, that's probably the key. I don't think any time someone says "We think you should apologise now!" the apology is never going to look sincere

[@BeansKneez]

i'm not too familiar with tomska, but i caught a video he did recently about plagiarism and it was fascinating. he fully admitted to ripping creators off by accident, which is something i've always been really anxious about doing as a writer. seeing him cop to it and move on was kind of healing.

[@RothAnim]

​@@BeansKneez I can relate completely. One of the things that really helped me with anxieties over misconduct was hearing what people were actually being accused of. It's one thing to worry if I have "behaved inappropriately towards female colleagues" because I made an undirected dirty joke on occasion; quite another to realize the "inappropriate behavior" was the accused masturbating in a car-ride with those colleagues.

[@abg5381]

I think a major aspect that's missing here is how someone apologizes after self reflection (think idubz) and someone who's apologized after being caught off guard (think colleen, somerton, paul). Intropection is not something easily internalized especially if, to someone accused, a thousand angry voices are all of a sudden demanding it, I think there's a human element there. I also think that it's not wise to assume someone who has proven to have behaved unethically will suddenly change heart and character in a day or even a week, but there's this want to shoot back immediately, to make the weather stop. Another reason is that assuming an allegation is correct, shitty people don't make for good apologists! If someone's doing something unethical, socially destructive, abusive, they're not gonna respond quickly in a way shows they recognize the harm, unless when they were acting afoul they truly understood that what they were doing was wrong, and made no justifications or internal excuses- and that is very rare quality among tarnished people. For anyone like that an actual honest to goodness apology can't be put out in a day because otherwise their behaviour should have stopped a long time ago, and thus a quick apology will come off as untrustworthy, the sincerity has been pierced.

[@magical-soap5359]

Exactly exactly EXACTLY I gotta screenshot the whole comment because it's a firebomb 👍💥👀

[@OtterlyChaoticProductions]

One of my favorites has got to be the Overly Sarcastic Productions video where they fully admit that they have time travel but only use it for not great purposes. No one saw that coming.

[@unseenmolee]

something that i wish more ppl would accept is that just because you apologize, i dont owe you my forgiveness. my mom does this a lot where she "apologizes" but my forgiveness mandatory, and she has control over me to make me comply (i live with her so she threatens to kick me out or stop helping pay for what i need). so instead of me having the option, the autonomy, to actually move on from the hurt she caused me, its just like even more pain that shes putting me thru. but she gets to feel like the bigger person because shes doing this performance of taking accountability. i see this a lot in youtuber apologies too, that entitlement to be forgiven, and it really bothers me.

[@maboroshiiro]

"doing this performance of taking accountability" yeaaaaaah that's exactly what it is. I also go through the same bs... in the end it's about making *herself* feel better.

[@jeremyadler9620]

IMO, Linkara, from Atop the Fourth Wall, has a good way of admitting to mistakes he's made in the past. Every few years, he does a top 15 list of mistakes he's made in a video to end the year. He does the easier/funnier mistakes earlier on in the lists, making a few jokes here or there, but when he gets near the bottom of the list, he becomes more serious and makes sincere apologies for the mistakes he's made. Simple, yet so effective.

[@calebmarmon1310]

Yeah, he absolutely owns up to his mistakes big and small. But he also hasn’t done anything heinous. I think the degree of wrongdoing is a major factor in this conversation.

[@samuelbarber6177]

His last one was particularly impactful, I found, at least when he got the bit about Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke.

[@sammyauroraloves]

Interestingly I think he does a better job of it than Doug Walker, who used to do similar videos but almost always had an air of "Ugh, you fucking pedants won't leave me alone so I'll just throw this out there to shut you up". Linkara seems more genuine in caring about getting even little things wrong. (Funnily enough, the one time Doug actually had something substantial to apologize for, he just kept quiet and let his management do the terrible non-apologies for him).

[@calebmarmon1310]

@@sammyauroraloves This is where I feel awkward about criticizing someone’s apology video as cringe when Doug benefitted from never making one and never acknowledging any wrongdoing. I’ve encountered longtime fans who were completely unaware of the criticism.

[@danculbert6349]

Doug usually just ignores his controveries

[@mrwho995]

This video put me on the longest tangent ever! I ended up googling James Somerton, finding HBomberGuy's video on it, and then watching the entire 4-hour blockbuster. Now back to finish off this one! I was half-hoping that this channel would be one of those that HBomberGuy shouted out, but oh well!

[@CouncilofGeeks]

I think it's safe to assume that Hbomb has never heard of me, but if you haven't already chased that with Todd in the Shadows' video I would recommend doing so.

[@chubbubdreamer6904]

​@CouncilofGeeks The fact that someone could do about an hour and a half of a just under four hour video pointing out how James did wrong, only for another person to dedicate another hour and a half about a completely different way he was trash is amazing.

[@natwilson9338]

i think colleen's non-apology video was effective at getting people to stop talking about what she actually did and talk about her 'koooky' video. so in that was it was probably better for her image than if she actually.... apologized. cuz like you said, you can't mention the people you actually harm in your apology!

[@chrisspaight2955]

Hard disagree. Her apology was so outlandish and tone deaf that it showed up in the algos of people like me who'd never followed her and had no idea she'd done anything wrong All I knew from my initial watch is that she had done something with kids that she was obviously down playing and not taking responsibility for so it must be bad. I literally would not have heard about what she did if she hadn't recorded a batshit insane non -apology with a ukulele to peak my interest.

[@kaitlyn1689]

​@chrisspaight2955 Completely agree. Not to mention that she made her apology, that think you make so everyone forgets ASAP, catchy. So people kept being reminded of the grooming allegations over and over again

[@valolafson6035]

​@@kaitlyn1689 It mentioned the grooming. But it did change a lot of the conversations to ''ha ha. She's so dumb and weird''.

[@apathybronson]

I disagree. Because (at least what I've seen) if people talked about the video they always also talked about why she had to do it.

[@marocat4749]

II dont think it did as got more attention, but i think she thought showing that she is "quirky" would make he fly under the radar for most, as usual. Just that it archieved the opposire by going viral.

[@austinluther5825]

I think another factor is: who is that KZbinr's audience? If you've cultivated an audience of kind and caring people, then wrongdoing will be taken more seriously. But if you've got an audience that doesn't care much about decency towards others and integrity of character, it's probably a lot easier to survive as a creator.

[@erraticonteuse]

This is why Somerton will never be able to make a comeback, and he doesn't seem to understand why. As Hbomb said, he cultivated an audience of younger queer people who didn't read the kind of material he plagiarized and convinced them that he was the only one with these sorts of insights. What he doesn't seem to understand is that his audience weren't primarily fans of him personally; first and foremost, they were invested in the material he was presenting. Now they know that he was lying to them, he was essentially isolating them, hiding a wider community and media landscape that they wanted to be a part of, and he did it by treating that community like garbage. Even if everyone forgave him for his past actions, no one in the future will ever care about his lukewarm regurgitated takes.

[@Beatmyguest001]

This is key to why iiluminaghtii TANKED and will NEVER recover in the same way. Because she specifically cultivated an audience of morally conscious people.

[@fishy000]

This actually backfired for someone like Idubbbz though because he had previously cultivated an unempathetic audience, so when he uploaded a rather sincere and genuinely remorseful (imo) apology after reflecting on his past actions, it wasn't taken well. He and his wife were harassed and insulted mercilessly. It was hard to watch as someone who had once been one of those young, edgy fans, who had then grown and changed myself. Seeing him get so much crap from people who preferred "the old Idubbbz" for making an effort to become a better person was sad.

[@SPDYellow]

Read an interview in People magazine with Michael Richards promoting his memoir and well, they talked about the notorious incident in 2007 where he lashed out at some hecklers during his standup, repeatedly calling them the N-Word. Now, I know since he's got a memoir he's plugging, and people do lie--you can't always know what's in someone's heart--but I'm inclined to cut him some slack for a few reasons. One, he does acknowledge the wrongness of what he did, doesn't try to soften or skate over it. Two, he seems to understand that no matter how much work he has put into bettering himself, he still did something horrible, and he doesn't have the right to demand that everyone forgive him for it. And three, after the incident in question, he went away and so far, has stayed away, never doing stand-up again. Basically, he talked about in the article how after the mess, he went back to school, threw himself into studying religion, philosophy, and psychology courses at the collegiate level in an attempt to understand the depth of his anger, where it came from, and how to better manage it. Of course, like you said, Richards had the resources to be able to go away and not come back (all those residuals from Seinfeld), something few KZbinrs have at their disposal. And as already stated, it's entirely possible that he could be putting on an act, because short of being God or developing scary Professor X-level mind powers, we can't fully know what's in another person's head.

[@Tankekraft]

A thing that I keep thinking about Somertons video is that everyone says the apology is bad because he isn't taking accountability - but doing so would mean admitting to an actual crime. So if anyone would take legal actions, a video where he confesses would ruin his chances to defend himself legally. He avoids any kind of words around what he acctually did, not because he doesn't understand that he did them, but out of self preservation. It wouldn't surprise me even if he consulted a lawyer before his video if he was able to. If I was in a situation where I was accused of a crime, I would never go online and announce that I did it

[@EmeralBookwise]

That still makes the apology insincere, because he's clearly only concerned with covering his own ass. It might be the pragmatic move to make, but actually admitting what you did was wrong requires accepting ALL the potential consequences of those actions.

[@Katerine459]

From every possible standpoint, releasing that apology video was a bad idea. Personally (especially if he genuinely was in a bad mental place), legally, and business-wise. Both personally and legally... he probably would have been better off never offering an apology, permanently deactivating his Patreon, and finding a new line of work, vs. putting out _that_ apology. I actually don't think there is much of an apology that would have actually helped him recover. Other than to just post a list of everybody he'd plagerised, and where, and how, so that hbomberguy knew who to donate to and everybody else knew who to credit.

[@Tankekraft]

I disagree with you, but I get where you coming from@@EmeralBookwise I'm thinking about that apolgies are a social consequence. And I don't think one need to be able to accept all potential consequences at the same time to be sincere when taking one of them. As far as I know, he is only being "prosecuted" socially. (I don't know if anyone has taking legal actions) His apology was still not taking the social consequence very good either, but I think it could be. I think you can make social amends without confessing to the crime.

[@CritterKeeper01]

@@Katerine459 I'd still like to see that list, whether he creates it or someone else does!

[@annabeinglazy5580]

Thats why i was honestly flabberghasted that He Made the Video in the First place. I fully expected His Channel to Just Go dark for a few months and then maybe stumbling across him in the Form of a new Channel. I mean.. He wasnt accused of "acting harmful around Kids" or some similar stuff that might be morally dubious But legally hard to prove Plagiarism is provable and punishable by law. Releasing an apology there could really end you in prison. Plus, KZbinr apologies NEVER Work, because they can never satisfying every Viewer. Even If you mean it. So why try it in this Situation, where you cant be sincere, and people wont forgive you anyway 😂

[@AskForDoodles]

Apology videos have that insincerity of a business going "Babe, please take me back, I can change..."

[@thevfxmancolorizationvfxex4051]

The reason why these youtuber apologies are so bad is because they're either not used to facing consequences for their actions or are too afraid of what'll happen if they take responsibility in case it means they will end up losing everything

[@orangejuice782]

when somerton said he still had videos he wanted to make, that was an obvious typo in his apology notes! what he meant was that there were still videos he wanted to *take*!

[@Noxofspades-lh7bj]

''Today, i'd like to talk about how i was wrong, why i was wrong and i will like to apologize for being wrong.'' This is hands down the best opener i've seen from a GREAT apology video from D'Angelo Wallace. For context, he made video ''Ma'am, you're thirty.'' criticizing this 30 yr old tattoo artist, Lauren who was coming after this 16 year old, Blake who had tattoos. And while he made valid points as usual, this video felt uncomfortable and geninuely mean and his fans called him out. And THE NEXT DAY, he made another video called ''Ma'am i'm sorry''. Said that great opening line. And then stated he didn't get any hate. Just disappointment. And it was clear it was coming from his own fans and not Lauren's.He refused to take down the video cuz that's the easy way out. So for 20 minutes, he picked apart his previous video. He still agrees with some parts (it's 20 minutes and that'd be disingenious to disagree with the entire thing).But more importantly, he showed the parts where he was out of line and explained why that was wrong for him to say. And at the end, he looked at the camera and addressed Lauren personally and said ''i'm sorry'' And the video ended. And not only did i find this type of apology rare, but it's baffling that he was 21 or 22 at the time. And i love the comments. They were like '''uh, this apology is too sincere for this platform.'' and ''wait, this apology is fake! It doesn't open with a sigh, there's no fake tears, there's no excuse about how he was in a dark place etc.''

[@CouncilofGeeks]

I’m iffy about the original staying up, continuing to draw revenue and potentially able to be found in isolation by people who won’t ever know there was an apology (though I notice there’s a pinned comment on it directing to the apology, which should be that at the minimum but not everyone checks the comments).

[@Noxofspades-lh7bj]

@@CouncilofGeeks that is a good point. I'm a bit iffy on that too. But i do like his explaination that he also left it up because he didn't want to delete the criticisms from his fans. And i think the most important thing is that Lauren herself responded to the video. Saying she forgave him, admitted her mistake while also explaining where she was coming from.

[@elleryharper8030]

I love d'angelo! And my fave apology is from his Blair white video. He was criticizing her usual nonsense. But then in the middle of it talked about the affects her videos had on cis ppl, enforcing their bias. He admitted he was super transphobic before. Didn't realize it cuz he'd never misgender anyone or anything to their face really. But he thought trans ppl were irrational unless they presented like Blair. And made a sincere apology that no one asked for (cuz no one knew about his previous transphobia, no one called him out), but made it anyway to hold himself accountable.

[@liesbeneathoureyes]

D’Angelo is a treasure fr

[@BrokenDarkFire]

Blown away by how I missed that video during my obsessive D’Angelo Wallace binge watch a few years ago but yeah. Thats very classy of him.

[@TheNoWayOut85]

All KZbinr apologies are bad but the worst for me was Colleen, not for what she did, not for the fact that she didn’t even apologize, and not even for the ukulele, but for something that she showed from the very first second and would never put away after, that look in her eyes, because it hit too close to home, it’s a look I know too well, the look of an abuser that can’t even pretend to care about the hurt they’ve caused, a look that just says “are you happy now? Look how much I have to degrade myself because you thought it would be funny to call me out! You think I can’t come back from this? Watch me be the better person while I explain to everybody why you don’t deserve an apology! I hope you enjoy watching me crawl now because, trust me, it won’t last long!”, the same look my mother had (and still has) every time anyone has called her out and she couldn’t just gaslight her way out of it. What hurts the most is that when I saw that look I knew exactly what would follow and I was right. No accountability, no apology, not even acknowledgement of the existence of the pain she caused, only self pity, victim mentality and vague promises to do better in the future (by becoming more stoic and learning to not get too attached to others and being less caring). It was so familiar it actually triggered my PTSD…

[@Pooglian]

I think there are two distinctions between some of the "successful" apology counterexamples I'm seeing (or could name) and the ones being discussed in the video. First is a question of severity. Several channels will put out periodic videos that could be taken as apology videos but I 'd categorize as "erratum" videos. Linkara is mentioned in another comment, but Tom Scott has done this as well. These are videos apologizing for either non-controversial errors in past videos or ones that will at worst cost them a relatively small portion of their audience. Apologizing for honest mistakes that very likely didn't cause many (if any) people personal harm, or where acknowledging the mistake is about as much as most people would expect. Second - and this is admittedly harder to assess from the outside (especially at the time the apology is made) - is the question of sincerity. Some channel creators seem to acknowledge and accept that they may permanently lose a significant portion of their audience by acknowledging what they did, but still seem to feel they need to address it and try to correct their behavior in the future. An example that comes to mind for me is Jessie Gender's recent "How We Talk About Trans Men" in response to criticism over her Barbie video. I can't speak from a trans man's perspective, so it's hard for me to assess how that apology was received by those most affected by it, but it seemed to be a sincere apology, acknowledging her blind spot in this area and intending to be more conscious about not diminishing that perspective in the future. As with the writer example, the only way you can _really_ judge the sincerity is with time. The apology is at _best_ the first step in a process of making amends for your past actions and improving your behavior moving forward. For KZbinrs, this process _may_ _result_ _in_ _no_ _longer_ _making_ _a_ _living_ _as_ _a_ _KZbinr._ That's the trick with _any_ potentially career-ending behavior. You _might_ be able to recover from it, but it _won't_ be _because_ of a sincerely-delivered apology. An apology _can_ help - especially if it's well-received, but it's not a magic reset button. If you're _actually_ sincere and introspective about the harm you caused, you _might_ be lucky enough to get a second chance. Cynically speaking, if you're _not_ sincere, you might still be lucky enough to pivot to a new audience that doesn't care about (or encourages) the kind of harm you did. Either way, the apology is just one piece of the puzzle.

[@breawycker]

I think Linkara is a good example too because of his top 15 mistakes videos. I think that format of opening up about your mistakes, talking about why you said/did it, apologizing, and showing an understanding of what you did wrong and why it was wrong and how you're working towards making things better. Granted Linkara's mistakes are nothing like Colleen or Sumerton but i think he has a really good approach

[@MxchiefMaykr]

I mean Jessie Gender has plenty of other shit to take accountability for and apologise to specific creators about rather than her audience as a whole (her sitting by and letting a group of other creators call Shark30Zero a bunch of incredibly racist stuff in a video call lost her my subscription, which sucks bc I loved her videos) but I totally agree! Part of the reason stereotypical "KZbinr apology videos" are the way they are is just the circumstances of them being put out immediately as damage control for one big incident rather than something made in the creator's own time to clear up old errors. Instead of taking time off and actually really reflecting and coming to terms with what's happened so many of them clearly panic over potentially losing their channel and no longer being able to have the lifestyle KZbin provides them, which helps no one, but if they have a young enough audience usually it ends up working so of course they keep doing it

[@Cesaryeyo]

I didn't know about the accusations against Sophie from Mars. I was wondering why she hadn't made another Cringe Corner with Thought Slime. Damn.

[@levibee9451]

I'm so confused. What happened?

[@DylweedWasTaken11]

Tomska actually has a pretty good apology in his video "My deleted and Discarded videos (Scrapped Week 4)". He acknowledges what he did wrong while showing what he did wrong and acknowledges that people might no longer support him and accepts and understands it.

[@thereluctanthipster6075]

I imagine it's also just the same as in retail. You never admit accountability because you risk a successful lawsuit against you.

[@Shamazya]

This was a big part of my thinking. I think the potential of legal ramifications plays a big part in these.

[@newtmazonas2676]

One good one! Minimimuteman - archaeology youtuber. Did some things as part of a youtube series that are deeply frowned-upon in the archaeology community and profession. Was called out about it. Posted an honest, detailed and sincere video not only apologising, but explaining to the audience why his behaviour was wrong, committed to better and invited those who criticised him to further dialogue so he could continue to learn. Honestly the best apology I've ever seen and massively increased the respect I have for him and his work.

[@pastlesandfish]

Lol you even did the dramatic intake of breath at the beginning. YT apologies are so formulaic.

[@magical-soap5359]

I lold real good at that 😅

[@jks1357]

I always appreciate your thoughts and balanced approach on issues like this. Psychology in Seattle has been grading KZbinr apologies. I think one of the few "good" grades went to Ethan Klein. However, that was for a really stupid/hurtful joke on a live stream, not ongoing unethical behavior.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

It's easier to apologize for something that might have actually been a one time thing than the culmination of continuous behavior.

[@stephanieok5365]

​@@CouncilofGeeks Yeah I was just thinking the better apologies I've seen benefit from not being an ongoing pattern or the apologizer recognizing a pattern was beginning to form and activity trying to not keep digging.

[@liesbeneathoureyes]

Ethan’s apology was successful because he was genuinely sorry. He knew immediately that he fucked up, he explained what his thought process was behind the “joke” without making excuses (i.e. the humour was supposed to be in the soundbite, not in mocking qtCinderella or what she experienced) and clearly understood that it was incredibly inappropriate. He wasn’t angry at the people criticising him because he agreed with them, so his apology wasn’t littered with the same resentment and deflection that people like Colleen and James somerton clearly showed as they felt they were being unfairly criticised

[@Sophia-cd2ci]

@@CouncilofGeeks I think we humans are more likely to genuinely be sorry for something that was a one-off than we are for ongoing behaviour. An apology for a thing that happened once, or an acknowledgment of harm for behaviour that ended years ago, is infinitely more likely to be sincere than an 'apology' for something you say you're finished with because you got called out last week. Like what (other than getting caught) has changed since last Tuesday that makes you now genuinely apologetic for your actions? I can think of a few possible things that could make this true, but they don't tend to be showcased in YT apologies.

[@robo3007]

Sienna Mae did by far the worst apology video I've ever seen. She was accused of sexually assaulting her friend while he was drunk as well as breaking into his house and sexually assaulting him while he was asleep, and her response was to release an interpreted dance video with the lyrics "I've done nothing wrong, I'm young!"

[@drawingsticks5333]

I mean that's an actual crime, of course she won't admit to it on camera. Also what the fuck, hope the guy is okay.

[@keelanbarron928]

I think it's also because it's hard for humans to apologise to begin with since we like to be liked and inharitly want to be forgiven and keep things the way they are. All apologies will always have a little bit of "I want to be forgiven" in them no matter what.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Off topic: one really sad/infuriating thing that keeps resulting from the alg0rithm colliding with covid is that smaller channels that had managed to gain momentum fell badly behind, while the lone KZbinr was ill. The latest whom I worry about is Oakwyrm, and as soon as I remember more of these (usually young adults), I will add such channel names below that are in extra need of some love.

[@theaureliasys6362]

Oakwyrm is good.

[@calebmarmon1310]

My concern here is that we may be incentivizing never apologizing/admitting wrongdoing. If there’s no path to rehabilitation through admitting fault, then we are simply rewarding those who never admit fault. And if their actions are so heinous that no apology can change anything, then the apology is not really the problem either way. Which raises the question are we so focused on punishing the apology? This is not in defense of anyone. JS should not be making a living making videos. But making fun of his apology video feels weird when so many charlatans have successful careers by never apologizing.

[@BeansKneez]

i don't know if creators who put out apology videos are automatically better/ more morally correct than those who don't, especially if they don't actually apologize or take genuine accountability. it's just another business decision.

[@mlletrouble]

It's the 'I'm sorry for what happened' instead of 'what I did' that does it for me, everytime. 'What happened was wrong' and treating it as a whole separate entity that just popped up that shouldn't have. Colleen's video was never intended to be an apology video to begin with. It was a middle finger to everyone believing the accusations that she tried to spin as 'gossip'. It was her denying doing anything wrong, so why should she apologize? Why would a ukulele be out of place? She would've been comfortable with a fanfare around I'm sure

[@tcsghost6984]

idubbbz has the best youtuber apology and I think it entirely comes down to the circumstances of why he made it. Most youtuber apologizes are directly trying to cover for some controversy. idubbbz apologized on his own terms for his old videos without prompting because he was actually sorry for making them and realized the harm they had done and were doing. He didn't need to be involved in some controversy where people dug up how awful his old videos were, because people already knew they were like that. They just assumed he was that shitty type of guy and he didn't want to be that type of guy or have those type of guys following him. The problem with all these other apologies really is just the fact that they're done entirely to save face instead of actually trying to do better.

[@alexandraphelps4020]

It’s been said here already, but one thing is truly taking accountability, saying “yes I did the thing and it was wrong” seems to be the major hurdle a lot of KZbinrs can’t get over. I think another thing is that they never really say “and here’s what I plan to do to improve the situation…” or even ask for input of what they can do (although maybe that’s a dangerous thing that can open up to death threats). I do know a KZbinr/TikToker who was advertising with a shady company, and she said “I’m sorry, I did this without fully researching the company, I dealt with them and am no longer working with them, I’ll research my companies better in the future.” And I would say that’s a decent apology. It has the basic framework.

[@Cesaryeyo]

Tomska did a whole video advertising Temu, but before releasing it the people on his Patreon told him about how shady and all around bad they were, so he didn't take the money and released the video censoring all mentions of the company and explaining the situation. I understand that people can't make full research on every sponsor, but they can take measures like that once they find out.

[@PartanBree]

I agree that this is a big part of the reason these apologies suck. Where I don't agree is that it has to be this way. I've run a business - not KZbin, just a regular IRL business that relies on customer relations. And I've screwed up in ways that really hurt customers, in very expensive ways. I've had to face up to that choice, to minimise and dissemble and save face, or to own up and expect to lose the customer. Ultimately it's a decision that comes down to being able to look yourself in the mirror in the mornings. Business isn't so different from personal relationships, the way people like to pretend it is. Integrity still matters, and when you're in the wrong, integrity means letting go of the outcome and accepting the blame. The other contributing factor, however, is that if somebody has done the sort of thing that merits a KZbin apology - the sort of thing that can't, with any honesty, be described as a "mistake" - the qualities that led them to do that are the same qualities that will make it very difficult to apologise for.

[@alinayossimouse]

I hate that this video was my way of finding out about the Sophie from Mars thing

[@stephanieok5365]

Dam Harmon might be a better example of an apology than Warren Ellis, unless my memory also has brain worms? He was very specific about why his power dynamic was wrong and how it hurt a fellow writer.

[@j4yb0b]

Came here to say the same.

[@stephanieok5365]

@@j4yb0b appreciate the brain worms validation. 😂

[@Cesaryeyo]

Yeah, I don't know that much about the situation, but from what I've heard it seems he actually took responsibility in a way that the people who were directly hurt considered appropriate and changed his behaviour for the better.

[@fourcatsandagarden]

I think part of it, aside from the ones who are truly disingenuous about it, is that our society is very hostile to apologies. People who are genuinely sorry and want to do better may still be hesitant to put out a full proper apology because our society treats apologies as either weakness, or as a way to put someone 'beneath' on the social hierarchy. If you have to apologize ever, you're clearly bad and lesser, basically. Like, I work in customer service, and a few years ago my company (which is one of the biggest corporations in the country) had a whole conniption over a lawsuit that included a point about a worker saying they were sorry to a customer as proof the company had done something wrong. So they flat out banned us from saying 'I'm sorry' to ANYONE for a few weeks (then quietly rolled that back because that's stupid). Like, we could get written up for saying 'I'm sorry' without permission, it was that ridiculous. And in my own experiences, when I was a little kid (like, early elementary school and younger), I often refused to say I was sorry for anything even if I was sorry because it was often used as a weapon against me by other people (bullies, my older brother who was being a bully, etc) or I was punished by my family if I didn't say sorry for things I didn't feel sorry about, which made me even more averse to saying it, not less. When I think about what I'd do if I was in their place (which...lbr I would never be in their place because I wouldn't do those things in the first place, but who knows what else I might do instead without realizing it), I'd probably delete everything and become a hermit in response to finding out I'd done something horrible rather than apologize just from the fear of the harassment that comes from apologizing. But then that might be why I'm not a youtuber in the first place haha. If you're going to be a public facing figure on a public platform you have to have reaallly thick skin.

[@StefanDByerley]

"KZbinrs can't go just away." *sighs in Jenna Marbles*

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Amendment: KZbinrs under 15 Million subscribers can't just go away (she likely falls under the "managed her money well" exception, most of us don't ever make enough money to even have the chance at a nest egg).

[@StefanDByerley]

Probably, yeah.

[@BougGroug]

I think Drawfee's apology video is pretty good. They really took responsibility for some truly messed up stuff that I don't want to describe so you'll have to watch it without context.

[@Sootielove]

They do a good job of consistently apologising as well. If they say something messed up in a video they always apologise at the end (except for Julia in one video, I can't believe she didn't take accountability for her crimes smh)

[@jsclaim2game74]

Sometimes a fact that plays in is what a creator is being accused of is so bad that even a good apology wouldn’t make up for it for a lot of people

[@Ronin11111111]

Is it because they're not sorry? That usually comes through.

[@anthrocene2907]

you are literally the only person who is coming at this in a nuanced and realistic manner. unfortunately many so called "commentary channels" cover these news in a very shallow and drama-centric way, basically tackling these events in the most surface level, blood-sucking ways possible until it is them that SHOCKINGLY come under fire for something.

[@Rmlohner]

The one that I thought came the closest to working was the Fine Brothers, and even they blew it because while they were saying all the right words, their delivery of those words came off as being angry that they had to be saying them and people weren't just letting them get away with it.

[@theaureliasys6362]

One that did work, IMHO, was the guy behind stringstorm. Once he was called out, he came clear immediately, put up the evidence against him, said he didn't expect anybody to forgive him, and turned himself in to the authorities.

[@asmileisspecial]

I’m not sure I want to Google this but what did he do?

[@NateDHWT2023]

I think you absolutely nailed it. There is a conflict between the personal and business side of being a youtuber that kicks in when it comes to KZbin apologies. They end up feeling very corporate in terms of only admitting as much as you need to in order to protect the business. Wild thing being - that doesn't work for corporations *either* and most of the time the desire to do damage control to protect a brand in the short term ends up doing massive damage to the brand in the long run. I do also think it's worth noting that some youtuber apologies are cases where 'admitting fault' means 'admitting to a potential crime' which adds a whole other layer of incentive to keep your mouth shut.

[@Scsigs]

I remember Bobby Burns lambasting KZbinr apologies years ago. Then he sold out when Shane Dawson offered him a job creating content for his channel that didn't go too well.

[@Darinadon]

You've hit the nail on the head here, I think. For an apology to work, it needs to be genuine. And if it's a business, it cannot be truly genuine. Also, for me KZbin apologies can work sometimes, when a creator has not been 'exposed' or shamed into apologizing, but has re-evaluated their behavior unprompted and has taken steps to correct it. At the point when someone needs to be shamed into apologizing, it will never work. Because the drive to change isn't coming from within.

[@jaguarnero]

I think a big part of this is that usually what they need to apologize for are things that were already so egregious, that there’s no way that they even would actually feel sorry about doing something so horrendous or despicable. These particular people already somehow feel sociopathic to me, so I personally really doubt their claims of feeling sorry in the first place. And not to mention, I also think that being a KZbinr or social media influencer in general is essentially like a sales job: if you damage the relationship you have with your audience and they begin to distrust you, you’re out of that job. Sales is all about relationships and people, and while people online are certainly behind screens on either end, if they no longer like you they will no longer be buying into you and your content. It’s really as simple as that, in my opinion.

[@sarahs1132]

Jenny Marbles did a 'good' apology video because it was genuine. Afterwards she stopped posting videos, though she retains plenty of hopeful subscribers (myself included).

[@Brunoxsa]

Thank you for the video, Vera! The thing about sincere apologies for doing something wrong (not necessarily criminal) is to own the responsibility for it, and be willing to listen and try supporting any direct victims. However, it will become shallow as soon as the author assumes that the victims must accept the apologies automatically and the offender believes that they can just go back to the activity where the bad actions did take place without any repercussions afterwards. As a former fan of James Somerton, he making his apology while showing the intention of returning to make video essays was really bad. However, he starting the apology by alluding to a suicide attempt was even worse! Something which I did not realize at the time: even if unintentional, it is still emotional manipulation! And regardless if the suicide attempt was real or not, until Somerton does come forward and admit it to be a lie, I will not question it and treat it as true. I am still sad and angry for what Somerton did, and I want him to answer for that. But I do not want for him to suffer any harm, especially by his own hands!

[@CrowMaiden]

honestly, other people have said it but there's a level of genuine 'I want to do better' that a lot of youtubers don't have, because if they specifically name what they're sorry for (or don't sing it with a ukelele?) then they could ruin their careers overnight. I'm going to bring up a good... not an apology video, but an apology tweet. the other week, a streamer (Slimecicle) accidentally used a slur on stream because he didn't realise it was a slur (which I didn't either and I've seen a lot of people not knowing about it; it's specifically related to Latin America, I believe). someone--probably his chat--called him out. roughly an hour after finishing stream, he tweeted that he hadn't known it was a slur, was now educated, wouldn't use it again, and apologised. I don't even remember seeing a single tweet about it besides his own. I also wasn't watching the stream; all of this information comes from his apology. he probably could have not said a word and just ridden it out--other streamers have done or tried to do that with worse accusations (I'm not naming names but everyone has someone in mind)--but he didn't. to me, that is part of what made it a genuine apology, in addition to the acknowledgement and specifically stating what it was about. it worked, also. no one has talked about it since he apologised. he said sorry, people either forgave him or didn't (I didn't see anyone not but there was probably at least one person), and everyone moved on. I feel like a lot of youtubers/streamers underestimate the power of a good apology making people move on within 24 hours so they try to distract instead by doing something worse? or something 'cringe'? or admitting to something else? just so the conversation moves on? it's weird, because they could probably salvage more of their careers by just... seeming genuinely sorry. they don't even have to /be/ genuinely sorry. no one would know. it's so weird. edit bcus I initially called him a minecraft streamer but I think he's a variety gaming streamer? idk. I just watch his content.

[@tia3831]

Jenna Marbles' apology is probably the GOAT of yt apologies, both because she did go away and because almost no one wanted her to go after the fact.

[@devinyoung168]

I was looking for this comment. She kept it short, to the point, held herself accountable, and for better or worse, decided she needed and wanted a break from KZbin.

[@luke-kz2mv]

I haven't watched this yet, so I'll update this if you cover it but my answer: People suck at apologies! It has nothing to do with KZbinrs (although the likelihood of an extremely bad apology may be higher if there are more narcissists on youtube than you'll meet in real life lol), most people just don't know how to apologise. It doesn't necessarily reflect on them, but most people just suck at apologies lmao. I think 95% of people in the real world are apologising with the assumption of forgiveness.

[@GamerWho]

Apologies are better when they are sincere and not made as pure damage control. Also not dancing around what they are apologising for as to avoid any legal culpability.

[@InnesTahtinen]

After you put Ellis on screen, but before you said his name, I knew I recognised him, but didnt know who, so I went, 'oh, Notch' to myself.

[@cassiea.9437]

You articulated the problem with KZbinr apologies so perfectly

[@cavinschlatter461]

Only good apology is Jenna Marble’s apologizing about her fish

[@VonPatzy]

Colleen Ballinger’s slice of ukulele rage was as much an apology as Dave Chapelle’s series of “cancelled” Netflix rants. Narcissists (I’m not their doctor) tend to have their mask off punishments doled out behind closed doors but these 21st century famous folks with internet voices are horses of different colors. Strum

[@ARMADILLOARMADILLO]

James Somerton's sad face makes me laugh I'm sorry

[@lakefxdan]

TBH writers, actors and others who are people, but at the same time their own “brands“ have had this challenge over the years. The particular example that was held up half a generation ago, was Michael Richards, versus Jason Alexander for their quite different bad actions. if you’re too young to remember, Richard - - Kramer from Seinfeld - - was doing standup, and used the end word against a Heckler. He made a talkshow apology appearance that was completely panned, and his career has never really recovered. By contrast, Jason Alexander, who was accused of having mistreated his Colleague, the actress who played his girlfriend/wife, in somewhat misogynistic ways, but mostly about professional hierarchy. IMO, came out and gave a master class, as it was called, in apologizing to her, and by all appearances, they did make personal amends afterward. These were not equivalent situations, TBH, but they came pretty close together in time, and really showed the Spectrum of how to do these, more or less, successfully

[@ColzoArt]

Thanks for this, Vera. I appreciate the time you put into it.

[@sasile]

I think it came up in the chat, but one person I thought of was Jenna marbles? I was a very casual viewer so like your memory of your good apology, mine may also be flawed but I think the reason that Jenna marbles sticks in my mind as a good one is two fold 1. The thing she was apologizing for was some like kind of s***** sketch stuff she had done years ago? Like cultural appropriation stuff? Maybe black face I remember? And so it was stuff that crucially she already was no longer doing? It's stuff that she did at the time which was not okay at the time but was also common at the time? Like I think this is a common pitfall for comedians? Who are pushing the envelope which with what is okay or appropriate to say doing like edgy comedy as a bit and then as the years pass that stuff is a lot worse in retrospect and they definitely did that stuff and definitely shouldn't have done that stuff, but it definitely like is a product of who they were and the environment they were in in that era? Again not to excuse it, but very much to indicate why a person would naturally and pretty completely move on from that, if that makes sense. And so number one, a lot of the stuff that Jenna was coming under fire for was stuff she wasn't doing anymore, it just had been unearthed in a general across the board pursuit of getting people to take accountability for especially inappropriate like racial stuff they had done? And number two, she did leave. I don't know how immediately she left-left, and I don't know... I mean maybe part of what's going on is that she actually had like done well enough financially that she could? So it was almost as much like like a retirement?? (Also that her partner didn't have to leave and was continuing) Like it was she was finding it hard personally to keep doing what she was doing especially knowing that people were hurt by stuff she hadn't meant to be hurtful way back when etc and so very much part of her apology felt like her saying hey I I quit I'm I'm tired I'm miserable and y'all are miserable so I'm done. Maybe I'll come back at some point maybe I won't, but thank you and I'm sorry and goodbye. That doesn't mean that the people who were hurt or mad or any of the rest of it like suddenly felt good about that, but it did mean that at least in my part of the internet I did not see the vitriol cross-contaminate again. Whatever backlash she got from it, it wasn't big enough that time to make it back into my part of the internet which I found interesting. . And I sort of think the other way to do it is to... Like one of the problems that you bring up here is that ballinger and Somerton, they are having to apologize for stuff that they did willfully and consciously knowing it was incorrect, and they are only apologizing because that is the only possible way they see to continue on as they were? But the flip side of that would be people who, as you point out, there's genuinely plausible deniability for them not realizing that what they did was a mistake? And when you combine that, combine the transgression not being as big or being something that one could reasonably assume they didn't know was incorrect, when you combine that with like a pattern of taking accountability? I think in my opinion that seems to be the best way. If you regularly go hey, if I got it wrong let me know... And you regularly litigate stuff that you got wrong? And this is like part of your normal practice? I think that maybe both makes it easier for you to apologize when you need to, but also makes it less likely that you're going to have some big career ending thing to apologize for? Cuz none of it builds then? But again, that's a person who is not doing one big huge absolutely incompatible with continuing on in this space thing. You can't take ongoing accountability for ongoingly continuing to be a plagiarist for example, and expect it to do anything. XD But in a model almost of like journalism or the scientific method, if you are consistently clear that what you're doing is the best with what you know at this time, and you are prompt with correcting yourself when you found out that you made a mistake etc, then you are much more able to weather mistakes in addition to being less likely to make large ones I think, and have your audience correctly continue to perceive you as someone who is on the whole in aggregate reliable

[@stephanieok5365]

Yeah, Jenna Marbles did have the gold standard apology, though I think retirement was incidental to the apology (which is fine too). The more recent example is a sketch comedy dude that apologized because he didn't stand behind some of his old sketches, he became aware that there's little difference between racist joke vs racist intent in how it harms folks at the butt of the joke, and his younger audience was internalizing racism as acceptable. I don't remember the dude's name but I think that penguin/moistcritical guy did a video about how the apologizer didn't need to apologize for "edgy" humor and there was an indirect response of "I welcome feedback from individuals that were impacted by my work" which was terse and delightful.

[@liesbeneathoureyes]

@@stephanieok5365you’re talking about idubbz yeah

[@phoenixfreefall]

I would say that Colleen Ballinger still doesn't understand specifically how she's caused harm and why people are mad at her. She's still self-focused on, "ok, this was a bad call, BUT I had my own trauma I was dealing with" etc. She still doesn't get what it is she really has to take accountability for. It doesn't help that when you're the internet main character and everyone's coming for you, the main issue can frequently get blown out of proportion, so when the person in the wrong receives all the accusations, they feel justified in making a denial. Which isn't an excuse, so much as it's an example... You'll never make a good apology until you really understand the harm you caused from the other person's point of view. And you may have to sort through internet tag-alongs who want to burn your house down to do so.

[@Leena79]

I think apologizing well requires a level of humility and sincerity many of these apologizers aren't capable of. If you go on to apologize to save face, instead of apologizing because you really understand why what you did was wrong, it ain't it. It'll never work. I can't come up with a sincere apology of the top of my head right now, but I'm sure they are out there.

[@adammyers7383]

I think if I ever had to make an apology like this I’d try to focus on the personal kind of apology rather than business apology, and hope that I’m able to be sincere enough to make it meaningful to any audience I have-as well, more importantly, the people I actually hurt

[@ofthewilderwoods]

True, but, Heaven forbid, if I ever messed up like Somerton and had masses of people angry with me, I also understand the instinct to hide in a hole in the ground. His attempted comeback though was garbage

[@b4rbarbar]

Hey Vera, thanks for the video, it helped me frame some things. I was utterly disappointed in Sophie from Mars. I was never a huge James Somerton fan, so I didn't fully relate to the people that felt heartbroken and betrayed by his actions. Sophie hit a lil closer to home. I still wouldn't say that I was a huge fan, but I remember finding her videos on communism on mars, which were so upbeat and full of possibility, and I followed her from then on. The allegations now (and her ackowledging of them while also downplaying them) felt much more of a betrayal to me than Somerton's situation. I also wanted to ask you or the community: what did We're In Hell do? I've only heard people say 'check twitter', but marina's account is down? Can anyone please help me?

[@b4rbarbar]

PS: Please note that I'm just asking because I was a subscriber to We're In Hell and even tho I unsubscribed because something smelled fishy, I would still really like to know for myself, but I have no intention of fanning the flames of drama. Thanks!

[@jessicalanger7599]

seconding this!

[@howlsmoodycastle9313]

Recently found out about Sophie and am gutted as well. Hopefully she takes accountability and becomes better cause her boots on the ground activism was really inspiring. As for We're In Hell, apparently he has a history of substance abuse which made his and Marina's relationship hell for her, eventually resulting in him r*ping her while she was passed out. Afterwards, he kept trying to get into contact with her against her wishes and downplayed the assault on twitter etc. There's a breadtube wiki article on him that goes into more detail and has archived links to the receipts.

[@liesbeneathoureyes]

I think there’s a Reddit thread about it

[@b4rbarbar]

@howlsmoodycastle9313 thanks, really appreciate it! I was already mentally prepared for something like that, but it still sucks.. parasocial relationships are strange, it really makes you feel that you'd trust that person and then you find out shit like this. I suppose that is the same is normal relationships...

[@muireannmc1056]

I know it might seem silly but Jenna Marbles is often cited for having an excellent apology over killing her fish. I think she also issued an apology for some of her earlier videos which went down really well but she still stepped back from KZbin.

[@Immudelki]

As always, a very good analysis of all industries in general (not only youtube, adding a reminder of video game apologies was a good touch) through, this time, the lense of apologies. I love the way you present all that. Thanks !

[@donnalevasseur4818]

I notice a lot of channels who over apologize One who I won't name used a clickbaity title of an announcement and I clicked on it and he spent almost 15 minutes apologizing over and get this having a pimple on his face Like his subs are that critical and unsubscribe in droves I say life happens No need to cry and plead about it. I can see if he did something bad apology but over a pimple !!!!

[@Elwaves2925]

I don't seem to follow channels/people who could end up doing this type of apology. I also don't know the folks mentioned here and in the comments. From the one's I've seen (mostly through this channel and a long standing, mostly dormant one) they don't work for several reasons. They don't actually apologise, they only say they will. They rarely (never) come across as sincere. They aren't really sorry and only do it for damage control. They only occur after they've been caught/found out.

[@stephaniesmith8777]

Vera hit such a good point in an apology shouldn't come with expectation of forgiveness. I had an "uncle" I was very close with try to kiss me on his birthday. I rightfully freaked out and told him to leave that night. When he apologized it was bad enough that he said he wouldn't have done it if I hadn't have made him a cocktail (we drank together frequently so this was stupid on many levels) but he ended it with "so you'll forgive me?". All of the levels of ick that had been layering up and when he said that I just told him I don't know and asked him to leave. He's never been back in my life since then. Like...the whole feeling was you absolutely meant to do what you did and you're just doing this so you can keep having comfortable access to me and pretend like nothing happened.

[@fearsomefawkes6724]

There's a big thing that I'm surprised you didn't touch on. The job of a KZbinr is to make videos, and basically everyone I watch takes about how much work they put in, the time it takes, the care they put into their videos, and I believe it. So, when an apology video feels half-assed, not well thought out or is generally of a lower calibur, I think it really stands out and shows a lack of care. I'm not expecting the same production quality on an apology video (splicing in a bunch of memes and sound effects isn't going to make it better), but it should come across like they cared, because we're very familiar with what their videos look like when they do care. Also, it takes time to record and post a video. Even if there's little to no editing, it's not exactly spontaneous by the time people are watching it. It means that we know that not only did they make a shitty video, they had a lot of time to decide it was a bad idea and then not release it, or rerecord it, or wait longer and try again when they can be more authentic and hold themselves responsible. It's a KZbin video, and they're supposed to be experts at making them, but as soon as it's an apology video it's like they forget why people are subscribed or what their analytics tell them. They are capable of making better videos. They are capable of deciding to not posy the shitty video. But that doesn't seem to happen, so it really makes the apologies look even worse. Also, there's been enough KZbin scandals at this point that ignorance feels like a week excuse.

[@theshadowdirector]

Glad that, most of fhe time, with these youtuber controversy videos, it's usually on creators I never followed! Exceptions being Channel Awesome and illuminaughti. The formers 'apology" was pretty infamous. Nkt sure if the latter ever even attempted it!

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Iilluminaughtii put out a “response” that I didn’t bring up here because it truly didn’t even try to apologize in any meaningful way. She apologized about one tiny thing and then started slinging mud.

[@arklestudios]

CA's became a meme, it was so bad. 😂

[@MxchiefMaykr]

​@@arklestudiosI wouldnt necessary call creepshow's video an apology video because she never framed it as such, even if it hits a lot of the classic KZbinr apology points. It is an absolute classic though, a three hour video trying to discredit the person who has a mountain of evidence proving you're an unhinged stalker etc which basically boils down to "I'm not a stalker, look at this (incorrect) timeline i made of her entire life including every account she's ever made on any website, the colour of the walls and pillows in every place she's ever lived, and screenshots from her DA account from when she was a cringy tween. That all clearly proves I'm super innocent and this is all a witch hunt!!" ? KZbin gold right there

[@ccdaly2561]

I think Jenna Marbles did well with her exit (now privated). She wasn't even in trouble. She just didn't like how her legacy looked anymore, realized she'd made some messed up jokes, and bowed out. It was honest, it was sincere. I still miss her.

[@lkeke35]

At least part of the reason some of these apologies don't work is because they come from a place of insincerity. The person isnt there to apologize, they are instead trying to excuse, explain, or save face, rather than make amends. Their agenda for the apology isnt exactly pure and its a lot harder to pull off an apology when you cannot look the person you harmed in the eyes.

[@persbaderse]

"you yourself are the business" really sums it up. it reminds me of (i think in 2020?) when arin hansen of game grumps wanted to apologize for something offensive he said, and he asked people on twitter if the apology should come from him or from the company. it's weird to think about how sincerity and professionalism can rub against each other

[@HonoredMule]

Aside from the complexities of a business dodging legal liability and varying levels of feasibility considering "leave the business" as part of the resolution, I don't think there's actually that much difference between corporate and individual apologies. (To be done well) both require acknowledgment of specific wrongdoing and _both_ require a presentation of specific actions being taken to resolve the harm, including restitution to parties aggrieved and process changes to prevent recurrence. (An early response needn't have the latter worked out, but should at least promise a future update that includes those details, preferably with a schedule or deadline).

[@troypetryk2043]

It's been a month since I've found your channel. I'm very impressed with the attention to detail that you provide in your opinions and analysis.

[@theshadowdirector]

One recent business related apology was probably Linus Media Group and so far, they seen to have been making things rightmt, at the time of writing.

[@MxchiefMaykr]

I mean that apology video was uhhhh not great (dodged actually discussing what they'd done wrong, passed responsibility onto people lower in the team instead of the people actually at fault, and had multiple shill segments for their store "as a joke" amongst other things), so I wouldn't exactly consider that a good approach, but I think if they're actually genuinely making solid changes in their behaviour and sorting what they did wrong then a bad apology can be somewhat excused. I no longer follow them so I haven't kept up with whether they're actually making changes, but the problem with having a business the size of lmg relying mostly on a KZbinr audience (both for as revenue and for the engagement it brings off site to their merch store and web pages) is that they have the classic business apology issue Vera discussed, but one of the main things they were called out for was their dishonesty, poor testing practices, and lack of fact checking/quality control on their videos because they were churning out so many to keep the business making as much money through KZbin as possible. Being a business in the tech space who announces yourself frequently as a "reliable 3rd party test group" and then being exposed for *constant* poor test practices destroys basically all trust and faith the audience has in you

[@bored_person]

Like so many problems in our society, It all boils down to symptoms of capitalism.

[@irisbekker9339]

I love your analysis of situations Vera. You are so smart and feeling and manage to put dificult topics in understandable words. Also shout out to your video on Angel Dust. I love how you make visible a character can be good representation of one group and bad representation of another group at the same time.

[@holocoffin]

Lil Hoot has a great video about this too! I recommend watching after this one. Very eloquent video Vera. Changed behavior and acknowledging harm go a lot farther than crocodile tears.

[@beneisenman1183]

I'm torn on the "apology" issue. My thoughts are also quite scrambled because of personal shit I'm going through right now that's make me mentally frantic. But ill try to convey what im.saying as clearly as i can. I personally feel that, for good or bad, we live in an extremely unforgiving world right now. Everyone, on all sides, are so tightly wound and ready to fight that it feels like we're all just jumping at the bit to take down influencers/businesses/actors/people for any mistakes that they make. And for me its incredibly disheartening. It's also why I stay away from social media for the most part. Now thats not to say that any/some/most of these people deserve any of it, but things are so public now that it goes too far. The next part is the idea of we're "owed" apologies. Im sorry but unless we are the people directly affected, no we're not. The public demands for apologies are ridiculous to me. Because we're not gonna forgive them. We're not going to treat them any better. We just wanna feel vindicated. And its demeaning that as a species we're all so angry about everything. There are genuinely things to be angry about. But social bandwagon outrages aren't one of them. (Again this doesnt apply to *All* situations. But there are a fair amount) Finally. At some point we need to accept that people are human and humans make mistakes. Humans also have the ability to change/grow/learn/adapt. Attacking people for tweets/videos/whatever that are 10+ years old becaus when rhey were young and *eddy* they said not-kind things...they're not the people that need to grow up or apologize. We are for being judgemental pricks incapable of looking at our own glass houses. When these big names make mistakes we gang up and attack them as if we are better than them and we have never made mistakes. It's just...inhuman. for being a species that claims to be so superior in intelligence and development, we're awfully primitive. I dont care if anyone hates me for anything ive stated. Im not interested in arguing with people who ive never met and likely never will. I refuse to live my life defined by everyone around me. I will continue to be kind to those near me, and try my damndest to be considerate and empathetic to anyone i interact with. Im no better than anyone else. And I won't pretend to be.

[@tyghe_bright]

I have seen some successful videos where people acknowledge they were wrong about a specific topic, and talk about what they learned... but these are more apology adjacent than apologies.

[@chubbubdreamer6904]

That uh...that random example was on point. Good lord.

[@bigfongz]

i think the best example of a good youtube apology is idubbbz' apology for content cop. really worth a watch if you used to watch his content, were affected negatively by it, or just are interested on seeing what he has to say. I really appreciated him pointing to specific interactions that caused him to do self introspection cause it makes it way more credible when he says he's changed and grown.

[@alunrundle162]

I've often said you're one of the most careful and decent channel 'hosts' on KZbin, Vera. I still hold to that. If you ever get P.O'ed (and that's a rarity), you have reasons that you can eloquently defend.

[@KidarWolf]

A youtuber I follow has recently made a big misstep in their selection of a sponsor, considering the topic of the video in which the sponsor was highlighted, and then proceeded to make worse mistakes in reply to the legitimate concerns of several viewers. While I would like to see that youtuber acknowledge those legitimate concerns, I do think that any attempt at an apology will fall flat, as the damage to their reputation has already been done. They have lost viewers, and may continue to lose viewers because of their choice of sponsor, but I think the leading factor in people unsubscribing is that they stopped treating their channel as a business by reacting as an individual in their comments section. I think it would be helpful for youtubers to think very hard about whether they are going to treat their channel as a business, or as a hobby, as this greatly influences how they need to address genuine grievances. There needs to be an acceptance that either you are a business, or you are an individual, and for the person running the channel to make every effort to maintain that division in their interactions. It is when someone acts inappropriately as an individual, when the reputation and feel of their channel is that of a business, that the real fallout comes from mistakes.

[@MxchiefMaykr]

Is this about the Kyle Hill better help shitshow? 😂 If so I think he absolutely could have recovered and not had so much of a negative response if he'd taken a bit longer to respond/had an actual PR person help him respond. The situation was absolutely recoverable with just the video, but his terrible response to commenters is what drove away a lot of supporters, myself included! 90% of the comments I saw mentioning the sponsor for that video were actually really supportive of him before he replied, and were basically just saying "hey I get that you need sponsors to keep KZbin going as a job but that is a notoriously dodgy one and as a scientist posting about research practices, I hoped you'd do better" and he immediately responded and acted like a child in the comments. Some youtubers definitely land themselves in situations where it's pretty much unrecoverable no matter what they say, they're going to lose a lot of their audience if what they're accused of is true, just because you can't really come back from that, but a lot of them take a bad but forgivable offense and make it 1000x worse by hitting every square on the KZbinr apology bingo card

[@KidarWolf]

@@MxchiefMaykr I will neither confirm nor deny that your guess is correct, but I very much agree with your assessment of the situation described. 😉

[@mercurymorning1]

A very small example but one I couldn’t help thinking of watching your video - there’s a KZbinr called Euro Brady who does “therapist reacts” video game reactions, he recently put up an apology for some insensitive comments called “I was wrong about Kim kitsuragi” that I think is actually an example of a really good & sincere KZbinr apology. He put it up very quickly after people started pointing out what he’d said and acknowledged his own biases, and his initial defensive reaction in comments, and apologised. It seems to have gone down like universally well. I think key to this though is that no one was really asking him to apologise for his initial comments, just correcting him on some assumptions he made which were ignorant/naive of the experiences of some mixed race people. But he chose to make a point of addressing it anyway, when he probably didn’t need to, because he wanted to put his mistake on record and promise to do better. I think maybe that early and thorough response is why it’s seemingly worked for him.

[@Checkers1993ify]

I think to some extent, it's always going to be impossible for a KZbin apology to go over well. With a regular apology from a person or a business, they can say, "Hey, here's where I fucked up, here's why that was fucked, and here's where I'll do differently going forward." KZbinrs can't really do that because even when there's a general consensus over what they need to be apologising for, there's usually twenty different interpretations of why it was wrong. So even if they do get the acknowledgement of what they did right, it's kinda difficult for them to talk about all the different interpretations of why it was wrong without it coming off as them being an annoying Redditory debate bro to some extent. Plus, usually what they actually did wrong was one of two things. One is just ill-conceived business decisions (e.g., Somerton's plagiarism or Logan Paul's suicide forest video) where they really probably needed to have someone on staff who'd say no. The other is when they let their personal life and their professional life get too overtly connected (e.g., Colleen Ballinger's controversy or pretty much anything Onision ever did). Usually these aren't things the audience wants to hear about because usually what doing things differently going forward means in practice is either hiring a new editor or PR person for the former, or just being less personable on Twitter for the latter. The former may not even be in the budget for smaller KZbinrs, and the latter can hurt their numbers just as much as not uploading for a couple of weeks. Neither is putting out the apology video talking about the takes all the commentary channels have come up with.

[@proquar9173]

So, i understand IDubbz's apology 'worked' as an apology.. but apart from annoying some RWNJs, it didn't have a huge algorithmic impact. Which is the point of a 'real apology'. Hadn't thought about this... if it's a good apology, you're not likely to hear about it... if it's given via ukele or dance then booya! everyone makes bank off it KZbin is a strange landscape - and I'm grateful for your insights!

[@quirkyblackenby]

I think my main issue with apology videos is the reaction from fans. Fans think that everyone has to forgive the KZbinr and move on but that’s not how apologies work. People can still choose to no longer watch your fav’s videos. They can choose not to forgive your fav even if their apology is a good and genuine one. Also no one has to sit around waiting for a KZbinr who said or did something fucked up to apologize or even watch said apology. They’re allowed to go ew I don’t wanna be associated with that and stop watching asap. I feel like all this is a given but some people online act like no longer watching a KZbinr who did or said a messed up thing is the same as cutting off a friend who made one off color joke. KZbinrs aren’t your friends. I don’t owe them grace when it comes to why I choose to stop watching because it’s not a personal two way relationship.

[@MattDoesLife539]

This video needs to be shown in schools all over US.

[@ksn2002]

Really thoughtful video❤ On a completely different topic - your nails and glasses are amazing❤

[@obstipuit]

this was INCREDIBLY astute. well said.

[@hibiki8473]

Atrioc probably the only one with a good apology vid. Cause he took time not only to actually help make the ai stealing faces for porn and taking down many photos along with several other areas. And he shows that he is grown rhat he got proof from website he got porn from to say the last day he was on that website was the day he was caught for looking at porn ai art of streamers