Wigan landowner illegally closes a Public Right of Way

[@brianwilson1729]

Landowners are vastly outnumbered by trespassers and walkers. The law is that if people trespass without being challenged for twenty years or thirty years or forty years a public right of way may be created. If the landowner has registered the fact that they don't want a right of way over their land a new public right of way cannot be created, but all landowners, from homeowner to extensive estate owner, have first to know that the law exists, and then must pay the council around £550 to ask the local council to record that they don't want any new rights of way of the particular type they wish to protect their land from being given. If evidence is produced and accepted by local councillors of there having been a right of way created at any time in the past then it exists unless local councillors agree to remove it. As trespassers always have more votes than landowners the balance of power is always skewed in favour of the trespasser. Landowners are left dog muck, litter, dumped material, damaged fences and gates and a complete loss of security. My local highways department behaved illegally and I reported them to the police who took action against them but didn't take the officers involved to court. Government departments are treated more leniently under the law as they are expected to behave within the law and have a duty to maintain the public highways which the community relies on. Private prosecutions require solicitors costs to be paid which gives council officers additional protection as the council has their own set of lawyers. That a path is shown on an ordnance survey map simply indicated the presence of a path. Paths are created by deer and rabbits and trespassers. They are also created by landowners using their land. They are not a public right of way. The local council is required to register public rights of way and the Definitive Map is the relevant record. Council officers 'protecting the public' rights' behave in a high handed and dishonest way when doing so. The Defintive Map, which is not electronic, must be made available to view by everyone. The local council makes the new maps and the ordnance survey use that information to make new maps. Those records are held electronically and no record is kept of changes made unlike the old paper maps. The Ordnance Survey simply overwrite the map with new information. Council officers behave illegally with no traceable record of their illegal behaviour unless an individual records and stores the online electronic record periodically.

[@MidwestPrepper]

Thank you very much for addressing this. I find it really interesting vs the laws over here. Much appreciated!

[@clivesexploringadventuress6394]

What trespass laws do you have in you state Mr Prep ?

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Midwest Prepper! You're welcome and I hope that the link in the description helps to answer some of your questions regarding public footpaths and rights of way in England & Wales. The list isn't exhaustive and it doesn't include every rule and regulation but it does cover the basic laws regarding these type of footpaths. All the best. 👍

[@hubertdenise3100]

Here’s the 5 things I know landowners do to remove public access illegally: 1) They will place large machinery or obstructions like farm equipment or blocks in paths or in front of the entrances, so that you can’t get down them easily or might think it’s not a pathway if you’re not well informed. 2) Letting the sign posts fall into disrepair.They will do this by simply letting nature take its toll, doing no action of their own on the signposts,markers, or posts.This is very common, and really works when they don’t use the bright modern pathway signs.Eventually the pathway signs will become unreadable and the words lost, so people will not spot the pathway entrances and turns from the road or when out walking or cycling, making it much harder to spot the pathways. 3) In the case of wood and field paths, particularly when the path goes through farmfields, not keeping the path visible.This can happen when the farmers laying seeds or ploughing, and also when going along tramlines.This renders the paths impossible to make out, very narrow if still existing at all, making it look like a animal trail not footpath, keeping bikers out by result, and putting people off as now it makes it very easy for the landowner to call you a trespasser and call police, since you will not be able to keep to the path as you can no longer see it and so may cause damage to crops as well, since another trick they use is putting seeds on path so they grow in middle, further making it near impossible to use.In woodland case, letting plant growth and any blockage from trees happen.Such as plants growing into the path, narrowijg more and more, and then if a fallen tree happens not clearing it, simply letting it stay, and continue blocking it.Since you cannot prove it’s to block the pathway deliberately, as fallen trees are natural the landowner has technically done nothing wrong.Had this happen today. 4) Putting gates up.They’ll fence or gate entrances and exits, or even sections along trail, making it look private and less accessible.If you have a bike it’s not fun to have to lift bike over.More common out in rural areas where police are less numerous. 5) Having things planted where they join the roads, like hedgerows and ditches , blocking any access to road and from road.Also not letting the signposts be put up here, by technicality the footpath does not terminate or begin there.

[@Tarantio1983]

Another nasty trick I've seen landowners (particularly on the South Downs in East Sussex) is to put an aggressive bull in the field with the PRoW, luckily many members of the local rambler's association work at the county council and so they take that kind of thing seriously ... So when 1 particular farmer drops a bull in the field with the footpath, the council makes him put a temporary mesh fence along the footpath with electric fencing on the bull's side! But yeah, folks need to be aware that large farm animals can be used to dissuade people from using PRoWs!

[@ironhand9096]

That is against the act. No livestock (in particular bulls) are allowed near a prow. Nor are you as a landowner allowed to let your dogs intimidate people. There was a case on Kent were a herd of cows killed a rambler, I’d imagine the farmer would be liable to civil action.

[@lifeofpies]

I’ve got a video of this little area on my latest upload - the gate is open I use this route a lot a it was open last time I was there - the video is the Standish Circular Walk Twenty Bridges

[@calorange]

That particular farm have never been public friendly, even back in the early 90’s the farmer there made it clear you wasn’t welcome, if you dared drive past the main house on old moped/field bike he’d go berserk and instruct his dogs to give chase lol. Plenty of other local lads have had run ins with that farm too!

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Calorange, I'm just making an educated guess that the field where this Public Right of Way has been illegally closed by the landowner belongs to the farm with the stables attached shown in the background of this video. However I have no proof who the field belongs to which is why I've now reported the matter to Wigan Council and I look forward to their response in due course.

[@scouterkeith]

There is no limitation of time regarding usage of a path making it a right of way. If an owner puts up a sign saying private, at any time, then it would be very difficult to get it registered as a PROW.

[@abbottsadventures]

I’d really like to know more about the history of public rights of way in England, where I live in teesside, there’s loads of random ones dotted about and I often wonder why they are there. There’s nothing in the area at times.

[@Fummy007]

Its been 2 years. Has it been made available to the public again?

[@neilt7191]

Good evening Mr H and a very happy New Year to you and yours . Nice work there as always . As a keen walker myself this kind of thing should indeed be reported to the relevant department . Would you believe there was actually a more sinister example of this kind of thing in the Lake District a few years back , where a net was strung across a river to prevent canoes & kayaks from using this particular stretch . Had the deliberate obstruction not been discovered , the consequences of such a stupid action could have been fatal in a worse case scenario . I look forward to the update on this video . All the best Roy .

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Neil, long time no speak. 😉 All the best for 2020 to you and yours as well. I take it you went for your traditional festive pint at The Dunes Hotel? Regarding the illegal closure of some Public Rights of Way there is certainly a sinister side to some of these closures on the part of some landowners such as the example that you describe in the Lake District a few years back. No doubt it was put down to 'kids' or 'pranksters' but someone could have been seriously hurt. Regarding the illegal closure of this particular Public Right of Way the matter has been reported to Wigan Council via email who will respond to me within 10 working days so we will see what transpires regarding this matter when they respond.

[@xhogun8578]

The signs I understand, I have a footpath next to my field and have trouble with people allowing their dogs to come across the field with no care of injury to their dog or my animals. Also have had issues with people feeding my horses. So the signs about dogs on leads and not feeding horses is fair enough. With the instance of dogs worrying livestock going up and the reports of horses being injured increasing. I've even had someone stick bubblegum in a horses mane! Sometimes you have to remind people of the obvious. It is not right that the gate is inaccessible. I expect they have had problems with people not shutting the gates properly but that's why kissing gate were invented or springs and self locking catches.

[@georgebrown292]

Thank you for doing this where others can't be bothered, good on yer matee👍

[@andrewmarriott4033]

Great video mr h I do a lot of walking think we’ve come across gates like that before a few times and no what you mean about the signs look forward to the update

[@MrHsHotPot]

Cheers Andrew, the majority of landowners out there accept and fulfil their responsibilities when it comes to Public Rights of Way that cross their land so it is important that the few rogue landowners out there who think they can do what they want are made to accept and fulfil their responsibilities also. This problem has now been reported to Wigan Council via email who will respond to me within 10 working days so we will see what transpires regarding this matter when they respond.

[@paulf2529]

Just cut the wire holding the gate closed. Personally I wouldn't cut the fencing. That said your right to report it.

[@MrHsHotPot]

I think someone was merely proving a point by cutting the fence rather than the actual wire holding the gate closed Paul. That said though they themselves have committed an offence by doing this as the landowner could sue them for loss or damage to their fence. Plus whoever cut the fence had immediately lost the moral high ground if they had been caught.

[@philldavies7940]

@@MrHsHotPot there is no "moral high ground" with this type of farmer , to try to be moral just means they get away with it, their motto is do as they please and on the very rare occasion they're caught, accept the punishment. Its like saying we won't fight a war with hitler because we're morally superior, in the meantime they do as they please whilst having a good laugh. Just cut the fence, smash it down, time and time again, it costs them time and money each time., its the only thing they understand and care about. .

[@ironhand9096]

@@philldavies7940 so you condone vigilante action? You probably would have got on well with Hitler. You report the obstruction in line with the law, simple. The local authority can then amass evidence and prosecute. People taking the law into their own hands undermines society. First you damage private property then you feel this isn’t enough then you grab your pitchfork and attack the farmer. There is a reason why society shouldn’t follow mob rule!

[@garyburbridge7042]

They stopped people walking up to tandle hills in oldham through public right of ways near farms in oldham back in the 90s nothing was done as oldham council are not good.

[@MrHsHotPot]

Well I've now reported the matter to Wigan Council via email Gary and await their response in 10 working days time. Hopefully they will be a bit more proactive in resolving this issue than their counterparts in Oldham were back in the 90's. But we shall see.

[@lilimarleen4952]

Putting up signs every 10 yards saying "don't drop litter" is in itself a form of littering

[@garethparr649]

Great that Roy. This has happened a lot in Aspull where I live and I have wondered how they get away with it so thanks for enlightening me. Don’t forget Aspull pumping pit when weather improves.

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Gareth, despite my good lady wife originally hailing from Aspull when I met her I must admit that I haven't walked all that many Aspull public footpaths and the few that I have walked I never found any of them to be deliberately blocked by the landowner. That said I found a few (funnily enough around the Pumping Pit area) that could have been allowed to deliberately flood making them impassable which is a bit naughty if that is the case but it's not illegal. I will get round to the Aspull Pumping Pit ruins one day when as you say the weather improves. All the best. 👍

[@andrewdaley3081]

House building company deliberately blocked a right of way near me impeding me and my doggies progress I therfore had to imliment rule 10. This involves my right boot and in less than 5 minutes were back to it. Andy England 🇬🇧👍

[@philldavies7940]

Too many land owners and farmers believe they can do this, do as they please and if the council ever catch them its too late anyway. So I have a few sets of wire cutters to "rectify" them. They do as they please, so I reciprocate. But it annoys me I have to do so, I try to behave responsibly, I just wish they would so they same.

[@ironhand9096]

@@philldavies7940 equipped to cause criminal damage not to mention armed trespass. People like you really undermine law abiding ramblers, no wonder the communication with landowners can be difficult. I hope when you illegally park someone doesn’t take the law into their own hands.

[@77cjam]

Good video mate and it is ridiculous for the landowner to do what they have done. Whilst I do agree with you about signs overkill I do sometimes think they have every right to remind people of stuff as some people, not all, but some are disrespectful of the land. Don't drop litter, stay to the footpath, keep dogs on leads (in fields with farm animals) are pretty reasonable requests in my view, yet often you see people ignoring them. Hence why sometimes on walks you can see whole left over picnics just dumped because people are too lazy to take their litter away or reports of sheep being killed by some people who couldn't be bothered putting a dog on a lead whilst they walk through a certain field. I totally agree with you, and in this case the landlord is in the wrong for closing the footpath. Not saying this is the case here, but it must be frustrating for some landlords when they are faced with a minority of people using their land in disrespectful way. You definitely have done the right thing to report this and will be interesting to see the outcome 👍

[@MrHsHotPot]

Cheers Chris, glad that you enjoyed the video. 👍 Reference 'signs overkill' as another person has commented it is unlikely to find a Rambler or Walker that that drops litter, leaves behind the remains of their picnic/barbecue etc as they are usually respectful towards the countryside. So the disrespectful few who do this type of thing are also the type of people who will ignore signs either official or unofficial. As I stated in the video in my experience when you see a lot of 'unofficial' signs like this at the entrance to a Public Right of Way it usually means that the landowner does not want you there. But that said I'm sure that there are a few 'decent' landowners out there who add their own signs to try remind the disrespectful few who visit the countryside to be respectful and take their litter home with them. This matter regarding this particular Public Right of Way has now been reported to Wigan Council via email and I await their response within the next 10 working days so as you say it will be interesting to see the outcome.

[@helenbenjafield7351]

You're right,the countryside is a mess!

[@nickcaunt750]

Brilliant video. This needs saying and you said it very well in all details.

[@gwinniboots]

One day the land will be a shared asset for the people.

[@hurleyflyer263]

Nice one Mr H, look forwards to your update .

[@MrHsHotPot]

Well Hurley Flyer, I've now reported the matter to Wigan Council via email who will respond to me in within 10 working days so we will see what they have to say when they respond. After all it's what I pay my taxes for. 😉

[@clivesexploringadventuress6394]

Hello Mr H my name is Clive and i have a farm on Toogood lane and i was wondering if you would like to come do a video on my Land we are full of history from the civil war and such as you can tell with the road name.

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Clive, and apologies for only just replying to your messages have you had any Civil War finds on your farm such as musket balls etc? As these would be great to show on any future video.

[@clivesexploringadventuress6394]

Mr H did you Know an old rule of a public footpath is the minimum width of path is 4 men carrying a coffin in other words about 5 feet. we have one on my farm enough said there lol. Also mr H we to have the right to roam in this country too so my dad say's and i tend to agree with him to , Because i think i heard it in passing with the legal side off things when constructing our Farm ride for horses , i was wodering if you could give a shout on your show and plug my farm ride please and also like i mentioned in my previous comment we are very rich in local history here at the back end of Wrightingtomn and i am quite up on it .

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Clive, I was aware that there would be a minimum width for a public footpath somewhere but I had no idea that that's how they would measure it! I wonder if they sent four men carrying a coffin down every public footpath in England & Wales just to see if they were the correct width? Lol. Joking aside reference coming to your farm at some point in the future to do a video that would be great and we can continue to discuss this in more detail if you have some way of contacting you privately. As for giving your farm a mention in my next video I'd be happy to and I assume that your farm is 'Hesketh House Farm Equestrian' on Toogood Lane?

[@Ralphs-House]

Mr H, can you do a tour of locations from "Spring and Port Wine"

[@alangibson2118]

Nice one Mr H Thank you for caring enough to take action. 👍👏

[@peterstratton4075]

Hi Mr H, I live in Rossendale and we have a few Farmer/landowners who are a pain in the bum, unpleasant people who seem to go out of their way to confront anyone going about their rightful business, it feels like that film "the gauntlet". One thing I do find odd and I have seen the same thing myself, is the "don't drop litter signs" personally I have never come across a rambler that does this! Like you say Mr H when you come across this sort of thing, you know your not welcome.

[@MrHsHotPot]

Like you say Peter, some landowners are simply unpleasant people but thankfully they are a minority (or appear to be in my experience). However you immediately get a negative vibe from the moment you see unofficial signs such as 'Don't Drop Litter!/Take Your Litter Home!' from the tone and language used and personally I'm always glad when I've crossed a piece of land bearing signs like these without being approached by the landowner.

[@theowdgit9790]

Delaying tackticks not feeding horses i could agree with if horse is on a special diet ie under the vet.

[@MrHsHotPot]

The message written on the gate about the 'other gate' awaiting repairs is definitely BS in my opinion and this matter has now been reported to Wigan Council via email and I patiently await their response in 10 working days time to see if they will force the landowner to re open this Public Right of Way again.

[@aliciawjg4466]

I am waiting for the update on this one, unless I missed something?

[@MrHsHotPot]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6i8fmqeq52nodE

[@aliciawjg4466]

@@MrHsHotPot thank you for that we have same problem in Wales.

[@MarkStoneLimited]

have you gone back to that yeet

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Mark, I returned about two months later and did a follow up video to this one which can be found here kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6i8fmqeq52nodE

[@MarkStoneLimited]

@@MrHsHotPot cheers. Can i ask you if you like to join a Q&A Live stream. me and my viewers ask you question about you and other to get to know

[@MarkStoneLimited]

@Mr H's Hot Pot cheers. Can i ask you if you like to join a Q&A Live stream. me and my viewers ask you question about you and other to get to know

[@jamesford4750]

It’s grim up north

[@leemarsh9727]

What part of wigan are you from Mr h

[@MrHsHotPot]

Hi Lee, I'm originally from Ince (Lower).

[@pappypinel7484]

Epic video mr and mrs H , stay well mate cheers uncle pap.

[@MrHsHotPot]

Cheers Uncle Pap, glad that you enjoyed the video and all the best. 👍

[@kevintraynor4508]

I don't agree with littering in the countryside

[@MrHsHotPot]

Neither do I Kevin, but there is no need to remind people every 10 yards not to drop litter because the minority who do drop litter in the countryside will do so anyway regardless of the number of signs a land owner puts up. As I stated in the video usually when you see a glut of signs begining with the word 'Don't' or 'No' there is usually some resentment from the landowner towards the public crossing their land.

[@Briantunclkestuff]

I've just forwarded your video to the landowner....via WhatsApp...he's opened it. (Video) I know the full story....not about the gate...but the use of the footpath.

[@lllucky13]

cause he didnt want to get in trouble.. i use this path all the time. but i dont know who cut his fence tho.. i really dont

[@Briantunclkestuff]

Opened the video...not the gate... They had trouble on the land and believe he fenced off an alternative path around the edge of that land. No doubt there shall now be consequences...

[@MrHsHotPot]

@Icy Hall I have reported the matter to Wigan Council via email and now await their response. In the meantime if you do indeed know the landowner then as well as this video you can also forward them the link in the description to the Ramblers dot org webpage regarding the law surrounding Public Rights of Way in England & Wales. Question 24 in particular outlines the legal procedure a landowner must follow to divert a Public Right of Way or create an alternative footpath because of anti social behaviour occurring due to a Public Right of Way crossing their land.

[@Briantunclkestuff]

@@MrHsHotPot they are fully aware of everything that is and may be.

[@Alec-ph8kh]

No need to walk you can drive up to see if the footpath is blocked at the other end. Fair play to who cut the fence I'd do the same a "dose of their own medicine".

[@77cjam]

Not really. Whilst there is no excuse for the landowner not to fix the gate quite often fences are put up to keep things in not just keep things out. Not sure I'd be too happy if I owned a horse and stabled it there to find someone had cut the fence, potentially leaving it open for the horses to go wandering, rather than report it

[@Alec-ph8kh]

@@77cjam Theres nowt up with the gate ! why wire it up than ?

[@77cjam]

@@Alec-ph8kh As I mentioned the Landlord is in the wrong. But cutting the fence is also wrong. Whoever has done it is clearly making a point but hasn't really thought about any potential consequences

[@MrHsHotPot]

Whilst I share your frustration with the landowner and the sentiment regarding cutting the fence Alec, I've got to agree with Chris Moore on this one as two wrongs don't make a right. Technically the landowner could sue whoever cut the fence if they know who is responsible for 'Trespass' in a civil court case as they will have suffered some form of financial loss from the damage to the fence and the public had no legal right to enter the field at that point. The fact that the landowner had illegally wired the gate shut and thus denied the public the lawful access point to the footpath would be irrelevant in this case.

[@Alec-ph8kh]

@@MrHsHotPot Should have cut the cable locking the gate then, besides having the footpath there's has never been any problem for the previous owner for years in fact, it was once known locally as germans farm having had a German pow working there

[@singaporemick]

You must be mad to be wasting money on one of them drones Roy, Im just back from New Zealand and if you are in any scenic places, you have loads of daft folk flying drones around.

[@MrHsHotPot]

The drone is a Christmas gift from my in laws Mick. I had toyed with the idea of getting one for quite some time but cost and the confusion surrounding what the new drone laws that came into effect late last year put me off. Hope that you enjoyed your break in New Zealand. A belated Happy New Year and all the best for the rest of the year.

[@bonnscott]

No such a law in Scotland as trespass unless you damage crops

[@MrHsHotPot]

As I said in the video Bonn Scott, I don't fully understand the 'Right to Roam' law in Scotland but I know they do things differently in this respect north of the border which is why the Scots cannot ban the BBC TV Licensing Goons from calling at their property like their English and Welsh cousins can.

[@captainkirk1]

I had lobby today

[@MrHsHotPot]

Excellent choice Captain Kirk! 👍

[@hughmungo-sarce7557]

Ged orf moy laaaaaand!

[@lordsame3365]

agree same happ to day

[@CI55511]

Lol

[@brianwilson1729]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/contents There are mutiple Acts of Parliament and case law translates those acts when matters go before a court, however the link is to the 1980 Highways Act and is part of the relevant legislation.