Will AGE OF SIGMAR Survive Miniac's TRASH Test?

In this video, Rob reacts to miniac's new video, Age of Sigmar.
As you may know, miniac is a well-known wargaming KZbin channel and they recently released a new video about Age of Sigmar. In this video, Rob discusses the video and gives his thoughts. Tune in to find out if the video can withstand the trash test!
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[@akemihikaru2989]

AoS is a great game, but can it be a casual game? You have to casually assemble and paint 40+ detailed plastic miniatures. You have to casually familiarize yourself with the main rules, faction rules and season rules. Then you're setup for 2-3 hours of "casual" non-stop tactical and strategic challenges. Love it!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

No its not

[@willschoonover8654]

I think a "casual" mindset is more about what a player wants out of a game, not in the time or money they put into it. You could play golf casually every day of the week even if you spent a ton of money on equipment and learning the game.

[@thesaltyseagames]

Warcry is the way to play a casual game in AOS's setting, with AOS minis. It helps that Warcry is also pretty fun.

[@YuriGualeri]

@@willschoonover8654 casual golf probably will cost less that casual AoS or WH40K

[@editor2766]

@@YuriGualeri no lol

[@YetiLord]

This is HANDS DOWN your best video yet! You masterlyfully explained how I feel about the game but cannot always sum up into words in the moment. This is some S tier content. You nailed it.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Appreciate you a lot thankyou

[@stargazingkiwi]

This is such a great level headed essay. You show a careful intellectual approach to what could have been just a knee jerk reaction.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Appreciated

[@decokane1019]

Rob. I'm extremely time poor. My very limited hobby time is spent building, collecting and painting models. Gaming is something I haven't done in years. I have too many other commitments. Since your appearence on the painting phase I have been watching your channel and I have to say... I want to start playing games again! Your knowledge and enthusiasm are infectious. Thank you for the content. Thank you for rekindling the long dead ember of wanting to play wargames in me.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

You don't even have to play them well. You can just have a laugh!!

[@RobDastardly]

I think this is your best video I’ve seen, perhaps the best AoS video I’ve ever seen. You absolutely nailed what’s important about the game and I appreciate the passion you put into this

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Wow, thank you! That's high praise thanks

[@nathanspinks5067]

Rob, I really appreciated this take. After watching HeyWoah’s reaction video, it felt like there was a divisive reactionary vibe in the community. I think you come from a really good place in that you gave his argument charity before you criticized it, and tried to understand where he was coming from. My friends and I have gotten into issues when learning new systems or games, because we try to come at it with the same “want to win” attitude while we don’t know the rules well. This was especially frustrating with Horus Heresy where the writing sucks terribly, but I think you hit the nail on the head. It takes time to learn the game and you have to develop a different attitude until you hit that expert level of understanding. Everything is a creative process, and you aren’t gonna be amazing at it on the first try, same as painting. If I expected my models to look like Miniac’s on the first try, he’d likely call me arrogant. I think for anyone to come into a new rule set expecting to know everything and not get frustrated when someone else knows it better is the same thing, arrogance. We can all be better learners and have fewer expectations during the process.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks for understanding the core point so well. That's exactly how I feel

[@AutomatikFux]

Most of all, I want to thank you for adressing the stigma around competitive players. I'm just getting back into the hobby, but I was a very active player and traveling to events and tournaments as well as organizing them myself for various systems (WHFB, 40k, Warmachine mk2). Noone in my area took an interest in higher level play, and that's ok, but I was constantly stigmatized as the tournament player. I endured the complaining about everything (rules, dice or whatever came to mind) just to have games at all. Meanwhile the "competitive sweaty tournament players" I met were without exception friendly and awesome people, just having joy with eachother and being respectful to each other, and such it felt completely different than playing with the local casual gamers which felt way more obsessed with winning, and were overall more angry and less respectful. That was overall why I quit the hobby about 8 years ago, since playing in my local group just was not fun on any level anymore and I did not feel respected or welcomed.

[@andytechdad]

Jesus....what a video. I've honestly not heard of a better promotion of Age of Sigmar. I've been thinking about getting into it for a while, i'm finally going to do it. Thanks Rob.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Have a great time

[@terrydactyl2077]

As a new comer to war gaming and specifically starting with Orks (painting em up as I watch this). Is 40k a bit easier to get into than AoS?

[@11notintheface]

I agree! I've been waffling for a while about whether to intentionally get into AoS or just stick with painting/collecting/skirmish games like I've been doing so far. Between this and HeyWoah's video I'm feeling really excited about starting AoS for real. It just sounds like my kind of thing!

[@ilovewarhammer6668]

Well here’s my opinion I have collected 40k for 10 years plus and never played a game because of how hard it seems I’ve been collecting AoS for about a year and have played multiple games

[@MylerYurden9]

You can't really play untill you spend hundreds of Dollars and many hours building and painting and then only when you have 2k can you really "play".

[@christopherschlegel6412]

I'm absolutely loving how you're approaching destigmatizing competitive play. I feel like so much of the stigma comes from people not having experienced being the more knowledgeable/skilled player/painter/whatever very often. When you understand your craft at a high level and get paired with someone around your level, the game is always euphoric. When you're playing casually and think you are higher level than you are, the ego gets crushed when you get caught by something you hadn't fully realized. In that moment you either 1. learn from it 2. protect your ego through denial and scrubquotes Or 3. Take a very relaxed view of "I wasn't aware of that because I'm not invested that deeply, but I should expect to get got due to my detached relationship with the game and enjoy where I'm at" And hopefully people can learn to avoid the 2nd option

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Very very clear analysis and I'm board with 100%

[@hephesto555666]

In principle true. In practice though one is often dependent on who plays locally. AoS isn't a small game, both rules and army project wise. A lot of us are 'stuck' having to go to stores to get games in, a place usually dominated by people who play competitively or are simply neck deep in the rules and setting. Which is all well before we make it to the actual 'toxic' opponents, a seemingly unavoidable segment of the competitive side of the hobby. Those are often the minority, but I have yet to find a store or club where GW products, AoS and 40K in specific, are dominant where there isn't at least 'that one players' that will go out of their way to crush whomever they are playing against using their meta knowledge and list building. Add a messy system like AoS and you have a recipe for disaster / turning of new players. A problem that doesn't even need massively competitive play or challenging opponents, the lack of balanced factions is enough to disappoint people. GW's edition dev pipeline is an utter mess, which is something only those with experience or the time/energy to keep up with everything will know. A new player can easily stumble into picking up a faction they love the look of that leaves them utterly unable to survive even half a game against the majority of players. Some of them don't even need competent opponents to get crushed. Imagine spending months building and painting your first army, which is quite a daunting experience while you also slowly learn the rules. Only to find out your faction generally doesn't stand a chance.......I've seen people give up on both AoS and 40K after accidentally picking an effective dead faction/army. Same goes with GW's sales approach of scattering rules all over the place, they killed any interest my friends had in Underworlds because folks felt they had to keep buying stuff to keep up.

[@Campaigner82]

@@hephesto555666 True. However, you can just refuse to play the neckbeard. If you have an underpowered army and it’s agreed that it is weak, try to get house rule buffs for it to even things out a bit.

[@garrettfisher7185]

I’m new to AOS I’ve been looking at buying a army for about 2 years and finally got the orruks. I also somehow got my dad into AOS and this video was nice for both of us just to listen about the game. Thanks

[@MaMonkeyN]

I see a Man that is 100% exited about everything he talks about. Passionate about something you and i both love. The absolute best Video about competitive wargaming i have seen so far. Much love from germany man. Made my day

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Awh thanks dude

[@jonathandavis4819]

I like Scott's video. I like this response video. I like this dialogue, the tone, everything about it. Good game! Talking about games is fun.

[@8BitJesus]

No, no, this isn't how the internet works, people can't agree and be civil. Anything else is the path to madness haha

[@JackieChan1199]

Watched this right before heading out to a tournament, it got so freaking hyped! Love you Rob, great video

[@FilthyCasualHobbies]

Fantastic Video. Glad to hear your philosophy of Wargaming, especially AoS. I've been building up an army for a few months now and have yet to actually play my first game, but when I do I will keep this video in my mind.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Just have fun. If you haven't played much you'll just be searching around in the dark so take time to enjoy any element.of it

[@Yoyoman996]

Speaking to the example 24:45, as a competitive fighting game player AND competitive wargamer, this is spot on. It's bad etiquette to complain about dice... because both players are rolling dice. Just liking in fighting games, you are both effected by good and bad character matchups, the venue being cold, what you ate for breakfast etc etc. Take some responsibility for the results of the game. It takes a bit of maturity but it makes the good results more rewarding and turns the bad results into a learning experience. A win-win really.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Coming from a martial arts back ground these are my thoughts too

[@arinthel]

Yeah, but the difference is that if you're doing something else competitive, usually those things aren't deliberately set up so that a decisive advantage is supposed to occur randomly. Both martial arts and fighting games strive to create an arena that's as fair as possible. A boxing match doesn't involve one boxer getting a couple of free swings in on the other as a result of a coin flip, for example.

[@nicolaszhang2174]

Fantastic video and points about mindset, game design, the learning curve, and fun as a primary factor in games. Keep this type of content coming, you're very very good at it, and make your points eloquently!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks, will do!

[@RealJahzir]

I really appreciate the time and effort you both took in talking about AoS and wargaming. I feel I discovered something about the hobby newly

[@TheHonestWargamer]

I'm glad. Have a good day

[@traiantulbure3819]

I have followed your content closely for years, and for me this was one of your best vids. It made me rethink aspects of how I approach the game. It made me appreciate more the things I like, and how to better deal with aspects I may find frustrating. Ultimately it made me consider how to be a better player for myself and my opponent. Thanks!

[@woutgeudens6599]

Great video Rob. Especially your explanation about the priority roll makes me look at it differently from now on!

[@scottfrederick4496]

Mature well articulated take. Great video. Love the silly twitch streams and videos like this.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Much appreciated! This is the ying to my stream Yang I guess

[@SeasonofWar]

Very thorough & well articulated rebuttal Rob! Glad we have you as a pillar for our community!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

You too bud xx

[@jberrysf]

No, thats Jordan

[@harrisonmacey6380]

Hello Rob this is the first video of yours I've seen I've come over from your interview on the painting phase and I'm now binging your content. Listening to this has inspired me to learn the rules more and get involved in becoming a better player (I play blood bowl but used to play AoS 2.0) I think this is great because alot of your points especially differentiating between casual and competitive gamers. Thankyou for the content!

[@BeyondtheRecord]

i think most of this discussion comes down to accessibility: -the game feels flat until you are an expert -the list building is complex until you are an expert -having fun is difficult until you learn how to do it I mean... how the hell are beginners supposed to ENJOY the game? I feel most of them will drop it before they have the chance to become experts

[@themattbat999]

I don't think you need an expert to enjoy the game, but there is definitely a learning curve to Warhammer. It isn't a perfectly accessible game. I don't wargaming in general can be. It is simply enjoying the process of growing in skill.

[@Rave.-]

I spent my first 4 months of WH Fantasy just reading the army book and theorizing cool armies I could build. I had more fun doing that and never playing a single game than I have had with other hobbies. Does it require a certain type of person to enjoy that? Sure. Will eveeryone enjoy that? Almost certainly not, and that's ok.

[@w4rmachine76]

Who didn't love it when the Changeling put himself on top of the balewind vortex and hand of dust'ed Nagash. A great story. Thanks for the great video 👍

[@TheHonestWargamer]

My pleasure

[@christopheranderson5963]

The main criticism that I saw from Scott’s video was that AoS is not a great game below 2000 points. I think this is a valid critique and I am not sure there is an easy way to balance AOS for smaller game sizes like Boarding Actions seems to be doing in 40K but it would be nice if there was something more manageable in terms of size and complexity for newer players.

[@adamardback]

if you want to play a more skrimish game they have both underworlds and warcry so i see no point in telling people that there is a problem with the game when you can play 2 different games with lesser models and points.

[@christopheranderson5963]

@@adamardback i have not played those games and should have mentioned those in my comment. Your response is valid. I had understood that they have their own unique rules and are not simply a different way to play AoS unlike Boarding Actions which is a simplified version of 40K.

[@badbones777]

@@adamardback I don't disagree, but the game *should* work at any points level, otherwise they need to say it doesn't. Also, people who do play AoS at the "correct" point level do sometimes want to play smaller games to suit time/space considerations (me for one) - i shouldn't have to buy another game to do that if it's well designed.

[@kosmosfantasias7545]

I haven't tried Boarding Action yet. How good is it and can it become competitive?

[@reaper1858]

@@kosmosfantasias7545 I don't think it can be competitive, but it does give a small point collections (like two boxes of a troop, an HQ, and 1 "cool" unit) a way to play where you still have the basics of the game and can find a direction for your collection to grow. Crusade or path to glory were the previous recommended methods but they layer on special rules, upgrades, and list building that do not translate to 40k proper, whereas Boarding Actions do.

[@thesaltyseagames]

Thank you for putting so much love and care into this. You illuminated quite a bit, and even your points I disagreed with, I appreciated the compelling way you made them.

[@amazonwarlord]

This is one of the best videos I have seen on this subject. When you started talking about musicians, athletes and painters I was thinking, "well yeah. That's their job. " But you make the point well, that for many players, this is something they really enjoy and are good at and are dedicated to excellence. They are the professionals of the gaming world. Many of the people who are the best at what they do are generous with those who engage with it casually. You have made me excited to get back into AoS (But not until next year. This year I am making a custom White Scars army! Huzzah)!

[@jonathandavis4819]

I've only watched the first 13 minutes and you've gotten my sub. I really appreciate your tone, insights, and respectful approach to the dialogue. Fantastic.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

I appreciate that! I can be spicy but try to be fair always

[@FrPeter81]

I like your point about accepting the roll of the dice being a matter of mindset. When I got back into the hobby I made a conscious decision to be the guy who high fives his opponent when he rolled well, or celebrate their victory. I think that's an excellent expression of sportsmanship in our hobby, and gives you the peace of mind to realise that, at the end of the day, you're both there to roll drive and have some fun 😊

[@Rave.-]

I watched a game recently from Battleshock Wargaming where one of them rolled really well, and his opponent celebrated for him because it was a hype moment (but certainly not a hype moment as the enemy). It absolutely blew me away. My mind had a moment of, "wait... you can do that?" before it just clicked into place and it's the healthiest thing I've ever seen in a competitive environment.

[@benjamin2629]

I have done the same, I try my best to be like Nick from Playon, it makes for a much better experience.

[@millenniumxdtvmediaandarts1679]

Great points!!! I'm a huge fan of the new Path to Glory rules. I think it is a great way to introduce new players slowly. Won't cost as much as putting together a tournament build.

[@DolusMilan]

Another great video Ron! Painting-comparison is an analogy even Nathan should appreciate ;). Definitely going to take some 'Jazz' classes!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks philosobro

[@cordial001]

This video was great and needed. Thanks man

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad it helped

[@AsteroidTVGaming]

Wow, this is truly a well thought out video. Major props

[@MarkZX14R]

Good video - something I learned - The opposite of complexity isn't simplicity it's transparency ... so maybe the issue is the delivery or ease of which you can find the information you need in a way that makes sense. Just my thoughts around that :)

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Great points

[@gavinctate]

Great vid as ever, didn’t sound preachy and I love the priority roll possibilities graph!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

THANKS CUTIE

[@BillsravingrantBlogspot]

Crackin good video, Rob. Very eloquent response to a well thought out video. You both did great work and raised fair and valid points. I intend to point alot of people to this video as a great intro to AoS and what it could mean for them. Having always been a casual player, I really identify with everything you said. Practice it the key, AoS is a toolbox and using the tools correctly is harder than it seems on the surface. That said, I think you can still play 'casually' or 'Narratively' and have a great time. One thing to mention about the latest record setting LVO tournament. Take a gander at how smoothly the event ran, maybe talk to Scott (the TO) and get his take on the flow of the tournament. 300+ players, having a blast and hardly any drama, arguments or rule/game breaking situations. Just a bunch of great games with people just like you and me. Watching that event unfold was amazing (as was the scramble to get even more tables set up as there were so FEW drops from the event!). Let's face it, AoS has an expensive curve to growth, but it's not horrible. The state of the game , IMHO, is as good as it ever has been. Your video captures that perfectly and a hearty "Well Done"! Now, to find some time to "git good, newb!!!!" :)

[@GoldenRogueMinis]

Absolutely great video, as a “painter of minis” who doesn’t play much this was great!! I do fully intend to get more into playing soon

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad it was helpful! And have fun

[@tomdoysch]

Hahaha, love that the skaven vs gargant fight got another reference... truly nailed the point mate, keep up the good work 🙌

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad you liked it

[@wellard32]

The whole section on mastery was perfect! As someone who has mastered the lore based approach to list building, but is a journeyman with rules and painting, it explains the whole “your models your hobby” comments that get thrown around a lot, for me I enjoy building a lore based list, if it does well that’s a bonus, I just want something that fits the stories I’ve spent years reading. Thanks

[@davidblenner9082]

This was great & well thought out take. Well done sir

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Darklordofthecheese]

Great video once again!

[@infinite13390]

I will shout Ed Ball of the middle earth tournament scene. He is not only great at all the rules for the game but is also a great guy who would love nothing more than to know the person he is playing against is also having a great time.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Great shout. Exactly the right type of person

[@TheLurkinglurker]

Nice replies Rob, I agree on all points. Definitely the double turn takes experience to manage. I've felt fine navigating it but I always play a 1 or 2-drop list, so that helps.

[@thomsonelite]

As a new tabletop player, just 4 games in, but a hell of a lot of hours tinkering with lists, talking to my friends, painting with my son, meeting new people and lost 3 out of my 4 games, I absolutely love the complexity of AOS! I'm just now starting to play around with complex lists, denying my opponent a deploy zone behind me, buffing units and all that. I have played a lot of pvp where gear and attribute complexity matters a lot, movement, placement, looking for weaknesses, this is right up my alley, but I can also see where, for someone who is not as excited about these aspects, would fall short and burn out before finishing the core rules. Great video, and all glory to Sigmar 😝

[@kolari8971]

If you're already considering movement denial 4 games in you're well ahead of the curve when it comes to learning to play competitively. Similarly once I was burned out on more competitive styled video games, tabletop wargames have become an outlet for that sort of engagement only something with complex PvP could offer before. Couple that with getting to hang out with people, and no flaming in game chat, it's a dream

[@thomsonelite]

​@@kolari8971 well, I might be "ahead of the curve" but I'm only 4 games in, there's still so much to keep track of and I like that. The complexity is drawing me in, not pushing me away. My very first game I got served a big plate of "lock out your opponent or loose" and that was great, because I took it in.

[@stevendeelstra6375]

My brother and I jumped into AoS at the start of this year after over a decade of grinding Warmachine games. At the height of its power, Warmachine fully embraced the competitive nature that its ruleset was balanced around. Players were proud to be competitive and it wasn't used as a negative term. The player base understood that for a game to be fun at a casual level, it needs to be balanced at a competitive level. That's been the biggest adjustment when coming to AoS, it seems like a majority of the player base use the word competitive as a derogatory term. It doesn't mean that you're some try hard jerk who wants to nitpick over minutiae and bore your opponent into dust, it just means you have put the time and effort in to understanding the rules, practicing them, and finding the most effective ways of implementing them. You do an incredible job of outlining this, especially in this video when you compare it to competitive painting. They should absolutely be celebrated in the same way. Love your work and keep doing what you do

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Appreciate you. It's a uniquely Warhammer problem

[@shankley_has_a_brush]

Pretty excited to start playing. Working on both maggotkin and.... kruleboyz (start a kruleboyz army, rob.) We're dipping our toes in with a slow grow league and kind of learning together. I'm wondering whether to play with nurgle or kruleboyz for a year (as per your advice). In regards to the video, I'm not letting miniac's video deter from having a good time and learning the rules in my own pace. Thanks for the well thought out video, Rob. You're the best guide out there for a noob such as myself.

[@nastybadger]

Love you and your attitude to AOS dude. Can't wait for a tournament game one day. Badger (Sigmars pilgrims)

[@badbones777]

I liked Miniac's video and thought he raised some valid points (even if I didn't fully agree with a few of his opinion) - this is an ace video as well (as ususal). I don't mind the priority roll - I wouldn't be devvoed if it didn't exist, but I can appreciate what it adds to the game if approached in the right frame of mind (and it's not like you can't just ignore it in narrative or even competitive play at home/within your group). I personally really like alternating activation type systems (whether that's as in Bolt Action with random chit pull or just alternating unit activations) and I think it could be good (or at least interesting to try) in AoS. I really like AoS but there again I like a ton of games (including most of the one's Scott likes) - I think it's all about finding what you want and going for it. Thankfully it's a bit of a golden age system/ruleset wise right now. Loved your appearance on the painting phase btw - keep on being a lovely human being matey.

[@jrahll]

This is a great video. I love the tone. Great job. I am just getting into 40k as my first wargame. As a new player, it is completely overwhelming. The worst part is losing a game (or round) and not even really understanding what the hell just happened. And it's hard to piece it together unless you buy the other army's codex or use an illegal site like Wahapedia. There are a lot of "gotcha" traps for a new player to fall into - which sucks when you've spent a ton of money and time just to get to the table and then your unit/army can't do the thing it's supposed to do. I don't expect to win any games and I can have fun even if I lose, but sometimes the dense and complex nature of the game just doesn't feel good. I understand that those "traps" are really part of the rock-paper-scissors of the game, which allows for deeper game play. And the game absolutely NEEDS to support and enable its best players to have nuanced and complex games where system mastery is rewarded. There should be room in the game for newer and/or casual players as well as competitive players. Casuals calling competitive players pedants and competitives telling casuals to git gud doesn't help anyone. (I will say that the discourse here is excellent). Regardless, this was a great video and I learned a lot.

[@ilovewarhammer6668]

Well here’s my opinion I have collected 40k for 10 years plus and never played a game because of how hard it seems I’ve been collecting AoS for about a year and have played multiple games

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad you are having fun bud

[@greenghost2008]

Learning how to play any wargame feels like studying for a college exam.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

It does but playing well feels like jazz man

[@escapo6895]

The differences in wargaming: -The test itself is fun -You get to take the test over and over -You get better at the test over time -You discover new questions that you didn’t even know were on the test -You make new friends while taking the test

[@greystorm9974]

I love reading rules... It's fun. But I don't like to have to get into minutia. I don't like list building much. I want to slap chop my minis and the. Play a 1-2 hours of high action fun.

[@Rave.-]

@@greystorm9974 See I'm the exact opposite. And yet this is a game we both play. I'd say that's an accomplishment.

[@greystorm9974]

@@Rave.- oh no... I don't touch age of sigmar. The minis are bad(bit that is okay, you can always just by others that are better) the rules were a mess, last time I read them

[@N1kolajen]

I only play 40k but i still heard the entire video.. Very good constructive arguments indeed 👏🏻

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Lots of love

[@nlg702]

Incredibly articulate and well composed. Bravo.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks cutie xxx

[@d.c.4545]

The moment you put a wizard hat on a rat was the moment I spit the food out of my mouth I was laughing so hard. It was such a calm, level headed video and that just took me by total surprise.

[@mo_dakka]

I’ve only cannonballed into the hobby just recently but I’ve already learned an important lesson: acceptance. As a painter, I have to accept my limitations, and accept the fact that I will have to put in the work if I want to get better. As a gamer, I have to, accept that I am, as you say, time poor. And I may not be able to get in as many games as I want, nor will I be able to dive as deeply into the rules as I like. I also have to accept the fact that I have compromised executive function, and it has always made being Very technical with games difficult for me. I hate it, but I have to accept it. I think we can all learn to accept lots of things in life. But especially in the hobby space, we can learn that some games just are not for us.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

This is beautiful to read. You sound very mentally healthy. I wish you loads of love on your journey

[@mo_dakka]

@@TheHonestWargamer Aw thanks good buddy 🤝 I’ve also found that wargaming is full of amazing people like you. I’m blown away by the earnestness of so many content creators. I find myself crying like “I thought we were just painting orks??”

[@kaz9357]

I also watched Scott's video, and I can relate. I don't play much AoS, and it can be confusing with all the rules, building and whatnot (don't get me started on 40k). I do, however, agree that the all the rules and "fluff" allow that mastery to come into play, which is cool to watch. What I think would be the solution, is 1. Release the rules for free, and 2, develop "newb" rules to ease people in, going over just enough to get a simple game in. Then maybe have a progressively more involved game, by adding in certain rules. Then after a few games, new players can enjoy the complexity of the game, and maybe a better understanding as well.

[@TheGinc77]

Perfect answer and great video! I 100% agree on everything you said :)

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad you enjoyed! Appreciate it

[@JogPLC]

Looking forward to watching this later

[@TheRobertkelly]

As a huge jazz fan, I'm glad you could break this down in ways that I can understand

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Jazzy baby

[@sycho331]

Excellent defense of the priority roll, Rob! Well done!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

I rolled a 6!

[@sycho331]

@@TheHonestWargamer most definitely. I'm also a sucker for graphs :)

[@mitchbeau6534]

Love the level headed, and well articulated points. I like Miniac, and I agree with some of his takes on AoS, not all but a few. This is a nice response to some of those critiques. It's not a video meant to bash, but to engage in a healthy discussion about the game we love/hate/love-hate. One comment though about dice, and using things other than dice. As a Malifuax player, using cards can be a lot of fun too! 😉

[@BecauseOfDragons]

Well thought out and interesting points - I need to give more AoS a shot

[@TheHonestWargamer]

It's great x

[@OrrinSalton]

Love the response, calmly pointed out all the flaws in his argument, while still conceeding on mutually agreed points

[@trosty9921]

Great video. As you said, I think one of the traps new gamers fall into is they see what competitive gamers play and expect they'll be able to do the same with the same list. While following the competitive scene can be exciting, I think it is actually detrimental to new players as their experience will be very different than those well practiced players. Another important point you make is that really needs repeating is the narrative aspect of the game. I've been playing miniature war games for many years (way too many games) and one thing that has endured throughout is the stories that I have with the many people I've played games with. Like how Death frenzied storm vermin killed a mega gargant while being swallowed, that's just awesome. Also with dice rolls, I had an opponent make 29 out of 30 3 plus saves and we had a great laugh and came up with a story on the invincible unit. Having relics/traits that aren't the most optimized, but help you put the character you want on the table which helps further with the narrative. Finally, with narrative as you stated, having all these options really enriches that narrative immersion. Ultimately, playing a miniature war game just to win or lose I think is missing the point of the whole experience.

[@WarbossGibbo]

I like your comment about the mindset of dice rolls, it really resonated as my dice rolls have been hilariously terrible. To give two examples would be: Kragnos failing 4, 7" charges in a game A maw krusha failing to kill 10 chainrasps. It genuinely put me off playing AoS as I just had the feeling "my army did nothing because of dice" and I still haven't played since. The thing I liked most in this vid is changing the mindset of having 'bad dice', it really sucks when a huge model I've spent ages working on, gets on the table, and does nothing. But celebrating rolling a 6 sounds great, I adore the Kruleboyz sculpts but never played, but I can imagine unexpectedly rolling 5s and 6s to be more exciting and positive, instead of focusing on the 1s. So maybe I'll finish painting the models and give AoS another go, and this time if the dice didn't work...well that's just clearly part of the killabosses morky plan innit, cheers rob 👍

[@EmbraCraig]

i like this video - arrived here after seeing you on the Painting Phase. I’m a self avowed filthy casual, so wouldn’t normally end up here. I think there’s a few interacting things going on - 1 - as you said yourself, getting to know the game well takes A LOT of work. You need to study to learn the rules and their interaction. 2 - getting an army ready for a game is a big commitment, and games take a comparatively long time 3 - there’s a huge disparity in the level between a casual player and a competitive player 4 - for plenty of people, their potential player pool locally is small - if you’re playing pick up games, you don’t necessarily know what end of the scale your opponent is at I play a few different game systems, and I’m lucky if I get to play each of them once in a good month. I’m never going to have any level of system mastery. I’ll never beat a good player in a competitive game. I’m fine with all of these things. At this point, 40K and AOS are almost a waste of time for me - I’ll never remember everything from month to month, and I won’t get enough use out of any books I spend a huge pile of cash on before I need to buy something else. But if people in your area play mostly GW, and playing pick up games at a shop is your best option, so you don’t know what your opponent expects before a game, then you just unpack your stuff and it becomes obvious on turn 2 you’re wasting your time because you’re getting steamrollered, it can be un-fun. Contrast with chess - similar system mastery difference, but getting ready for the game takers 30seconds. If I somehow end up across the table from a grandmaster, he’s gonna take care of me in 5 minutes and very little of anyone’s time or effort is lost. I’ll probably feel bad for wasting their time. The best competitive players I’m sure are great at making your their opponent has fun anyway. But there’s plenty of ‘that guys’/best player in their local store/etc who will just set up, take satisfaction in stomping someone and then go home, because it validates their idea that they’re list building/system mastery is paying off. Anecdotally, those people are playing more pick up games, because people aren’t prearranging games against them since they’re no fun. The people they’re playing against are often new players who don’t have the local play group to prearrange games with. That becomes people’s first and overriding interaction with the competitive play scene. Note - I’m not saying all competitive gamers are unfun. But you’re more likely to encounter the ones who are if you’re in paying random pick up games because chances are the other competitive gamers getting prepped for tournies don’t want to play them either. I’m rambling now - I’ll stop…,

[@daveschwartz7817]

Excellent video. Agree with everything you mentioned. I’m a casual player, enjoy more painting my armies than playing them. When I do play, I play for fun - win or lose.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

You are perfect. Hope we get to play sometime

[@jamesthomson4998]

Really well spoken as usual Rob. You must be a nightmare to live with as you are a master at eloquently and fairly putting points across 😂

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Only with enough time to prep

[@vandamwtc]

My only gripe with this video is that every gripe Scott has with AoS can be stated about 40k tenfold.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

And most gw games.

[@khromas5392]

Nice video Rob, I'm just getting into AoS (first game this weekend) and am a little concerned about the double turn, but my attitude in general with wargaming has changed so much recently that I am really there to just have fun. If something on the table also explodes, so much the better. 😊

[@cameronthompson1943]

By Jove, This video makes me want to twirl my mustache, raise my goblet and scream "For the Lady" in a heroic voice! Well done!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

FOR THE LADY

[@Rhowin1]

Really good video that helped me to see some things in a different light. There is just one thing I'd like to add: there is often the trap that you focus on the wrong things and eventually get driven by fear - e.g. we might pick the wrong faction / list and this will result in a terrible experience. And we conclude horrible balance / game mechanics are the underlying reason. As such we start with a negative attitude before we've even played our first game. In reality there are fair chances you'll be playing with more experienced players and they'll help you with the rules and give you tips along your first matches. They feel passionate about the game and want you to become part of their community and have fun. As such you have fun in your first games. If your opponents abuse their advantage and give you a miserable time it wouldn't have been a more enjoyable time if you'd been playing any other game - luckily these players make up a really really small part of the community. In conclusion: we're often too much driven by fear - fear of missing out, doing , loosing, wasting time, buying not the 'best' or doing any other 'mistake'. Unfortunately fear works terribly good and ads make use of it all the time (how many vids have a 'Don't do this' slogan). But at the same time fear stops us from doing things and eventually enjoying them. When people start becoming overly protective about their favourite game / product and trash things, there is a fair chance they 'fear' having made a mistake / might loose players for their favourite game... And it's a human thing. However understanding that might help you understanding them better and even help them. At the very least try not getting caught in it yourself.

[@Evilpandaa]

Very well put! I know I'm much more casual at the game. More into painting than playing, but I do enjoy playing. I even went to LVO this year. Nothing like going to the biggest monster for your first tournament, right? You always see the priority roll debates and we even have some locally. Though, it's usually the 40k players that do.

[@nwood8175]

Thank you for your perspective. As a casual wargamer for the last 20 years (off and on,) I think the games workshop games have always suffered from the sales cycle. Each new army must be the new Meta so they can sell models and books. This isn't fun, it's sales. This leaves those of us who buy in at various points out in the cold a few months down the line when the new hotness arrives. Maybe the internal balance you describe happens at a top tier, but I simply haven't seen that on a casual level where the constraints of real life (time, money, family) create an unequal playing field. Complexity as you outline can be good but I do think it's unreasonable to expect casual players to master the skills to play competitively (read: not get trashed by every rules lawyer out there). In your analogy comparing skill mastery in wargaming to professional sports or artists, I think you miss the mark. In both those cases the "rules" of the game or system are approachable and intuitive to everyone involved. You don't have to read 300+ pages of rules books to understand a football game or an interesting paint scheme. The mastery of that player shows through precisely because the rules are simple or intuitive enough for all of us casual fans to understand and enjoy. When you play with or against a top tier player in a wargame you are creating an inherently unlevel playing field because the top tier player simply isn't playing by the same rule set you understand. This creates a constant stream of "gotcha" moments that makes your multi-hour time investment feel like a waste because you lose due to rules lawyering rather than a bad strategy. Thanks for reading my hot-take.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

You have bad strategy cause you don't the game state well. Not cause someone lawyered you. Follow up painters and footballers put in a lot of effort on strategy, skill and talent to be good at what they do. I doesn't just happen that's why we don't that as well

[@nwood8175]

@@TheHonestWargamer hmm. In re-reading my comment above, I suspect I didn't articulate the notion well. Trying here again. I don't have to read 300 pages of rules to understand the refs calls on the football game on TV or appreciate a spectacular paint job. The players themselves have a deeper knowledge without doubt from long experience, but the basics are understood by all. In the case of rules heavy wargames, this simply is not the case for casual players in my experience. When I'm hit with some faction specific rule deep in a white dwarf magazine or rule supplement that changes the game state is off-putting as a player. This is what I mean about uneven knowledge of the core game rules. I don't see it as a personal failing on my part, but a structural failing of an overwrought system that expects too much time and monetary investment from it's players. It's part of the reason I have entirely given up on 40k/AOS in favor of skirmish games and simpler systems like OnePageRules. Anywho, It was interesting to listen to an opposing perspective. Thanks for the video.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

​@@nwood8175 I completely agree there is a structural failing with most complex and arguably too complex games. I think I cant jazz well till I learn but I'm not sure that's jazz's fault and definitely not jazz musicians. I'm glad you've found a place to go and be happy in wargames but there are people playing AOS right now competitively and having a great time

[@Aliashavoc]

This video helped me realize that what I want out my wargaming experience is having fun playing the game. Which may have also led to my cripplingly large mountain of gray to overcome with my models because there's so many armies I want to play with. Thank goodness for slap chop.

[@arthurfish3]

I really enjoyed this video, thanks for making it! As someone new to playing the game, I feel a bit lost in where to begin. My wife and I painted through the pandemic and now want to play but sometimes run into uncertainty in the rules. I think we just need to get to a games workshop and have them school us!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Ill have a blog up and hopefully new videos soon to help with this

[@ChristopheDuran]

Just wanted to comment and say how appreciative I was of this response. I was watching another response vid and the overall vibe of it and the tone in the comments was a real put off. Kept reading and thinking why would I want to play with these cats ya know ahAh. Appreciate the thoughtful responses here. I enjoyed Scott’s vid and relate to a decent portion of it but knew there was some things he was missing ahAh. While I’m not completely put off on AOS it kind of took a backseat to other interests…but no longer ahAh. Currently awaiting some Kharadron Overlords.

[@stuartmurdock2873]

Best advice! Celebrating the close calls (armour saves of 6+s) or a couple of goblins taking the last wound off an ork megaboss with arrows (5+/5+) rather than getting salty over a 2+ save rolling a 1. I used to be in that boat but when I think back to those close ass games where 4 players are closing in around a spinning dice to decide the last wound on a model to end a game is just the most fun I’ve ever had. Some of those have been at tournaments. I would probably fall into the casual gamer side of things but I’ve met some great people @ tournaments too. Big love to ya all

[@tytanwargaming]

when scott talks about a more complex rulebook i think he's referring to something like what happens in magic: the gathering, there is an easy to understand rulebook for everyone, then also available is the comprehensive 278 page document of rules for people who are interested in high level play, and i agree, warhammer like a lot of games would benefit from 1. not changing editions just because some arbitrary time passed and 2. have a document like MTG has for people who want/need it

[@tytanwargaming]

also the idea of artifacts costing points is something i have put forward for 40k, you could have the CP cost or free relics and warlord traits for playing power level games, but for people who want to go in depth with points based list building we're normally using apps like battlescribe so it really is no more effort to add up a points cost for a relic

[@Beanyybean]

Well put. I remember starting out with aos, and just playing purely with basic warscroll rules and turn sequence, had heaps of fun. Now im a year in, playing with all the rules at a much more complex level, and still having just as much fun (unless I lose a prio role kek)

[@ericlaplante4975]

great video Rob

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Appreciate you

[@blastbeatpie3239]

I haven't actually seen the original video, but your response is both mature and engaging. I've recently got back into wargaming and have an army of gitz in the works, as well as several blood bowl teams. This video was a breath of fresh air, in what can be at times, quite a toxic environment. You have certainly stoked my interest and reinforced my decision to rejoin the hobby as someone who came from Warhammer fantasy and who has never played AOS. Essentially I just want to drown the world with psychadelic lunatic goblins and squigs. Can't wait :D

[@CygnusMaximusXIII]

All salient points, and well made, for sure. I like most of the complexity of AoS (and like Necromunda), and I think it's a great game. I know we recently discussed this a lot on Twitter, but, for me, my main hang-up is that, while I'd like to be a more active and better player, I'm not at a place in my life that I have the time to. I'm a single dad with three kids, a full-time job, and other commitments. I love the hobby and will build and paint models when I have 15-20 mins to spend, but that also means it's rare that I have time to go our and play a full game. When I do play, I HATE the thought that my opponent has to dumb things down for me and isn't getting the experience THEY want from the game. I know lots of players are gracious and willing to do that, but I think because my time is so precious, I hate feeling like I'm wasting theirs. As my kids get older, I do hope to engage a but more, but where I am now means I'm really relegated to the lower end of the competitive scale, which is fine, and so I focus more on models and stories I like best. And I have a feeling I'll always lean more that way even when/if I get more into the competitive side of the game.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Yeah this is true with life right. We have to manage what is normally a very obsessive hobby with actual things

[@zano_korellio]

As someone who proactively seek out newer players and the "time poor" group, I never felt like dumbing down or toning down my list as something I hate doing. If anything, it allows me to bring out my other models that don't see play, and I LOVE that. I also enjoy playing with people in general. To see their excitement in bringing their army and roll some dice. I'm sure I'm not alone in this and I hope you find those you can play with, who shares this sentiment.

[@azoxystrobin]

Oh Rob, you were so nice and polite in this video.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thankyou. Please subscribe

[@opesam]

I loved this video. I love Scott, but I disagreed with everything he said, and yet was struggling to articulate why... this summarised that so nicely! Also; if you want a (almost!) perfectly balanced, relatively simple (rules-wise), cheap and accessible game with no dice rolls to spoil it, then play chess! 🤷‍♂️ But I'll be over here having a blast with my ridiculous giant punching the stuffing out of goblins before it gets eaten by a giant cabbage ridden by a furious mushroom in armour!

[@TheHonestWargamer]

I'm in to play with you

[@SiegeStudios]

A perfect, grounded and level headed video which not only applies to AOS but all games in our opinion. Top stuff Rob!

[@MKDietz]

Rob - I play AoS competitively, sort of, I listen to all your videos, even introductory ones. I agreed with so many, if not all, of your points and I think you brought them forth in a very civil manner. Major probs to you tbh and thank you for also adressing the entire power gamer thing, it's been a major issue in one of my clubs actually, and that was the thing that was toxic, not the playing or anything else. You're a babe.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

It's odd people hate gamers but there it is

[@cmleibenguth]

Well articulated rebuttal Well made video Good job HeyWoah's video is also pretty good

[@reubenmccallum3350]

I would dispute that rules complexity is a necessity of depth. There are other games out there that manage to have depth of interactions and yet have relatively straightforward rules. The core rulebook for Guild Ball, for example, was pretty brief but the depth of the interactions was huge. Conversely, you can have layers and layers of rules that don't really grant meaningful choice. For example, the distinctions between hitting and wounding in AoS are a rules layer that doesn't really add any real choices or depth to the game, it's just a mechanical layer with few interactions. I think AOS is ok overall but it doesn't use its wordcount or the time required to play a game particularly efficiently.

[@Victoriousweapons]

Precisely, it's a fundamentally flawed argument. Chess has simple rules, but the depth is immense. Conversely, in the wargaming space, Kings of War is far less rules heavy, but I feel more tactically interesting than AoS.

[@steverogers3696]

Rob i love your content. I just wanted you to know. Also i love that Nathan might have some gobbos in his pockets as i type this.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

He probably does. Thanks babe xx

[@grinningdragondren]

Great video. I enjoy warhammer and other wargames and skrimish games. I think you are great and i hope you have many fun games. Love ya bud.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thanks, you too!

[@dr.mitchormond2084]

love it become the MASTER of having fun!

[@Inzanepiratical]

29:40 Funny you mention this! I'm working on a hex-grid rank/file wargame that uses alternating unit activations on individual Units based on an Initiative roll at the start of each round. Going to be testing it at a game dev con in less than 2 weeks!

[@marks6928]

I have more experience with D&D than AoS so I’ll just add this point; I’ve been playing D&D for 23 years now and I think Matt Mercer is an amazing DM. He knows the rules really well, but is flexible enough to know when to relax them a little for the sake of the moment. Mostly though, he’s an incredible storyteller and that’s what makes him a great DM. Other D&D players may not agree, but that’s my take anyway. I can’t contribute much to the conversation, but I thought I could contribute that. Fantastic video, thanks Rob 🙌

[@TheHonestWargamer]

That helps me loads and means a lot to me thanks

[@marks6928]

@@TheHonestWargamer no worries, happy to help Thanks for all of the awesome content, have a good one dude

[@chancemcclendon3906]

honestly, the only issue I have with GW systems is the amount of money you have to keep spending on rule books. Just feels bad. Why can't they can update and balance on the go? its the money I know.

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Same. But I don't buy rulebooks

[@chancemcclendon3906]

@@TheHonestWargamer shhh don't say it too loud they are always listening

[@garyryden3873]

i love the complexity descrription with the wizard skaven! i feel its true that you get some great stories for later when you pull off a crazy big wombo combo. My friend just messed me up by making his kroxigor fly and pulling off a 3D6 charge for 16" and one turning my Great Uncleanone....amazing and horrible all at once lol

[@123kdred]

Great video

[@TheHonestWargamer]

thanks babe

[@Rubo2333]

I think Scotts perspective is from a newer player trying to get into the game. He's not playing 2k points games and many of his issues are from the difficulty of getting into the game. AOS games under 2k points are horrible, but it's more digestible for a newer players so the current ask is suffering through how many lower point games so you can play a 2k game. I enjoyed the video and I feel like it's fair.

[@markgnepper5636]

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@mrbunning8051]

Great video 👍

[@TheHonestWargamer]

Glad you enjoyed it