Will Apple be shutting off your audio gear?

Apple's announcement that it will be actively removing the last bits of IEEE 1394 Firewire computer code in its Ventura and Sonoma operating systems has huge industry implications. This removal stops all audio compatibility in future operating systems and condemns hundreds of thousands of pieces of audio gear to the landfill.
We take a closer look at how a company as large and climate aware as Apple, could be so tone deaf on such an industry wide sustainability issue.
00:17 The Problem
01:37 History/Context
03:13 Class Compliant Devices
04:44 Who's Affected
06:11 Impact on Industry
07:53 Alternatives and Options
10:30 Conclusions
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[@slayabouts]

"It seems inconceivable that a company the size of apple hasn't thought this all the way through yet" No, it actually seems right on brand for apple

[@jpcolindesign517]

Yep! Apple is about profit, NOT QUALITY.

[@MeTuLHeD]

Actually they HAVE thought through it quite extensively and carefully. They just don't give a damn.

[@ateddy7901]

Yea Tim Cook needs a spanking from Mother Nature… oh he might like that… may be tim cook needs to grow a heart .. I like apple.. he needs to remember we not all made of money… there other areas also like this.. apple is not that green… just from their perspective.. I like apple.. just stop spinning everything and milking the cow till it is dry

[@googlerep366]

Apple don't allow you to do anything to their computers you can't upgrade anything everything soldered in and you pay twice as much for everything. Might as well just buy a really badass PC at least then you can upgrade everything or replace it and it will actually work without having to go in and replace code how ridiculous.

[@wernerxldata]

@@MeTuLHeD They do give a damn, about their shareholders, not about you. I almost bought Apple stuff, it's nice, small and looks great. Didn't do it because they suck in extendability. I like OSX / Linux better than Windows, but OSX is only available in combi with Apple's idiot ideas about hardware. Linux doesn't run my favourite DAW. So stuck with Windows, not the best but at least it gives me some freedom in hardware choices and runs almost any DAW... And despite all Apple owners telling me how fast the M1, M2 and M3 are, sorry dudes, AMD's Ryzen series spin laps around you. No not as energy efficient but since I'm not a laptop user I don't care, I have a very silent housing and a nice 230v cord plugged into the wall. F&*$ Apple :) Oh, no not completely, even with the restrictions and idiot ideas they still make the best (in my opinion) mobile devices, so still with them with my iphone and ipad, only because I don't see valid alternatives.

[@mxfxdlg]

My entire system is Firewire based. If this is how Apple chooses to treat lifelong customers, I have no other choice than to seek a more compliant and supportive platform. I’m very tired of being treated like a crack dependent customer. I have options.

[@sonicalstudios]

Honestly you don't need a Mac to record if anything gets quite limiting, just get yourself a PC. These days you will get the same reliability or maybe even better but yes we should no longer be using FireWire. I have recently upgraded to a RME Raydat but they should not be forcing the customers to do anything but this is Apple we're talking about

[@ArthurElectric]

Windows DAW.

[@bloepje]

Linux has good support for firewire. There are several commercial DAW's available for linux. Once you switch, you will be settled for the next 20 years.

[@Thekidisalright]

I am very sure Tim Cook will lose sleep over losing a lifelong customer such as you, what a tragedy for everyone in Apple indeed.

[@ar_xiv]

just don't upgrade your OS. Mojave still supports 32 bit VSTs and 95% of new audio software.

[@davidbiagini9048]

To all those who justify Apple's decision because Firewire is old, well that doesn't mean it's useless. If you have unlimited money and can constantly buy new gear, great, but that's not the majority of those who actually try to make a living with audio/music.

[@robg8699]

Everyone should throw away their old TB303, TR808, 909 and zilion of other gear because it's old and perhaps doesn't EVEN have MIDI (yeah the serial port on DIN41524 connector from 1984 that's running on two wires on 31250Hz) this haven't become obsolete - apple pls, throw away support from kernel for MIDI because it's very very old !!!

[@aons5481]

apple should throw away the old tech electronic components and start inventing something new and use them@@robg8699

[@Jdinrbfidndifofkdndjoflfndjdk]

Software Engineer here. They don't drop support out of nowhere. This is done through analytics. The usage of FireWire is low enough to pull the plug. This is a cost / risk ratio issue.

[@PaulLembo]

Such a non problem. Run an old OS, you’ll be fine.

[@stevenleonmusic]

I made a grand total of $20 off my music in the past 4 years but even I don't agree with this. Nobody needs to "constantly" buy new gear; it's not like cable standards are just coming and going every few months. What is especially disingenuous about your argument is *we are talking about Apple here*. If you can't afford to buy new stuff why the hell are you using Apple computers to begin with? You could have been using a much cheaper Windows PC and USB-powered devices and avoided this whole issue.

[@enossifiedossified3145]

Back in 2017, I sold my two Firewire devices, a Motif XF6 synth that used FW for MIDI and 20 channels of audio and A Focusrite intreface with 8 analog/12 digital ins and outs. Why? Because both companies had shifted from FW to USB just a few years earlier and I knew driver support would end soon and in both cases it actually did. I’ve moved to class compliant USB devices for everything now and have no plans to buy anything that’s not class compliant in the future. Since 2017, I’ve made 5 MacOS updates and a year ago I got my first Apple Silicon machine. All my USB devices work. I wish it had been otherwise, but my own experiences in the computer industry as a design engineer taught me to no longer rely on any hardware that was reliant on proprietary software to be fully functional. Maybe Apple will listen to the pro audio industry and put the FW kernel back in Mac OS, but I'd be surprised if they do.

[@kayosiiii]

I don't see that happening. With the amount of money they are making with Ios devices vs the money they make on macs, Spending engineer hours on mac pro - type stuff is something of an opportunity cost for them.

[@JonAshleyUX]

Yes, directly impacted. I hate this cycle of upgrade & throw away. Shouldn’t people/governments call them out? It’s not blind neglect, it’s malicious.

[@hoagie7859]

Look into building a hackintosh and run which version of the OS that you wish and continue using your stuff.

[@gavincurtis]

I remember when USB was gong to end the DC coaxial power plug hellscape. I have USB to DC coaxial cables now! It just gets worse and worse and worse.

[@DonnDeVoreMusic]

moral of the story: dont update OSX. I stopped in 2013. runnning a 4,1 Mac Pro with Snow Leopard, Ableton Live 9, mBox Pro 3 firewire interface, Mackie 1640i mixer, stacks of FW drives, used only for audio production. sounds great. also have a Macboook Pro with Catalina and Ableton Live 11 to be compatible with current systems but it require two adaptors to connect a FW device to USB-C or a hub. Macs will last 10+ years but Apple prefers if you buy them every 2 years and stock up on adaptors. I will probably upgrade again in 2029.

[@WarrenPostma]

Saves you from buying more plugins then, since nobody makes plugins that still work on Snow Leopard.

[@matiasmoulin2126]

Exactly. I keep saying this forever: one shouldn’t update the workhorse: buy a machine and stick with its shipping software as long as possible. Maybe update a few generations if it makes sense (it did under Steve Jobs when OSX was an OS and not yet a milking machine like nowadays) but don’t change a running system. I will stick with Monterey as long as I can. If I think I need MacOSf***19 then I’ll probably make a partition (if it will even run on an M1 - probably not) and will always open Monterey for working.

[@suitandtieguy]

Yeah my 2011 Mac Pro runs 10.9.5 and DP7 just fine! I also still use CS3. What exactly do you need a newer OS for other than web browsers, which seem to be absolute pigs for no good reason.

[@DANGMOE]

I'm not alone!!! I also stopped in 2013, I'm still running Snow Leopard on an old iMac with all my 10 year old gear and DAWs

[@dkpianist]

Doesn't really work for me since there are other things (like some interesting Final Cut Pro plugins) I would like to use that don't even run on Mojave. If all you do is plain recording and mixing, you may get along with such an old system. However Logic's development does not stop either and you might be missing out on some interesting new functions that could make your workflow a lot more efficient. I am stuck on Mojave because of my older Metric Halo interface which would require a hardware upgrade in order to run on a newer system (because of the very FireWire situation). With my previous 2010 MacBook, I had the additional problem that sites like KZbin wouldn't properly run in Safari anymore since the old Safari version obviously isn't on par with modern web standards.

[@Screaming-Trees]

Yeah this is frustrating. Especially when you consider that the two protocols are very similar architecturally. Actually Thunderbolt was built on the concepts laid out by firewire. Both are expansion bus (not peripherals bus) protocols, both have DMA as such and the transfer protocol itself is more or less the same. They found time to redesign the "Settings" menu, which nobody wanted or asked for, but they don't want to maintain code that basically needs no maintaining. There was no need to do this.

[@sonicalstudios]

Funny thing is FireWire was made for Apple but I still have a FireWire card in my Windows computer and it works great😅

[@AnodyneHipsterInfluencer]

No need to do this unless you're a _share holder_ that is.

[@PeterAlanJohnson]

there is no financial benefit to Apple in doing this, sure it reduces QA time, but removing the old detritus also improves reliability@@AnodyneHipsterInfluencer

[@Scott__C]

@@sonicalstudios Apple invented FireWire. Thunderbolt was joint between Apple and Intel. It works on Windows because you install the drivers etc. for it.

[@sonicalstudios]

@@Scott__C yeah I've been using FireWire since Pentium 3 days on pc. It was great, always got a lower latency than USB and the performance was always a bit better but saying that I've never seen an apple chipset for FireWire it's always been via realtek and Texas Instruments was always the best one to go with so I don't know who may the ieee 1394 format but I do not think it was apple

[@DrBovdin]

The beauty of older Mac hardware and OS is that they are extremely capable even in a modern setting. I am still using a MacBook Pro from 2014 running macOS 10.15.7 as a daily driver and I have yet to run into a situation where it can’t do what is expected from it. So my option for a production environment would be to just keep running older computer hard- and/or software that is compatible with the studios FireWire interfaces. Maybe even source second hand machines as a backup for the production machines. And of course make sure that the software is properly backed up as well. I do hope the day the Fruit Company entirely kills all old systems remotely never comes, but I would not be surprised if they would like to do that.

[@timgosden5519]

I was surprised to learn anyone still used FireWire!!! I transitioned away when my Motu 828 mk2 finally went pop, and that’s almost 10 years ago!

[@Scott__C]

I got 18 years of support out of my 896HD. I think that's more than reasonable.

[@jay4vice]

Thanks for the info. I stopped upgrading my MACs and my DAW two years ago.

[@seanvinci]

Personally the benefits of the latest OS and latest versions of my DAW (plus the speed of thunderbolt) is worth upgrading for me. BUT to get a few more years of life out of my firewire hardware, I got an external PCIe enclosure with thunderbolt and an ADAT card from RME (obviously only works if your hardware has ADAT capability). It's not the most elegant solution, and wasn't the cheapest option, but definitely cheaper than all new hardware. Been using it for three or four years now and it's been very reliable. Hope that helps someone.

[@DenOfTimbsllc]

Only one problem with that statement about Apple dropping USB, the EU already made it clear to Apple, they cannot drop support for USB. Because the standard now for charging and transferring data, thanks to EU, is USB-C.

[@Tigerex966]

Thats not usb one and 2 and justb3 and 4 usbc.

[@valdir7426]

what are you talking about? I think you're making reference to phones that has nothing to do

[@Tigerex966]

@@valdir7426 actually it does in the future if apple decides to stop supporting USB 1 and 2 USB a.

[@vandenhengel978]

You are mixing up protocols (numbers) and connector types (letters). They can still drop the protocol as long as it charges.

[@DenOfTimbsllc]

@@valdir7426, It is not just for phones.

[@appads]

"It just works... Until we intentionally break it to increase revenue" Apple's new slogan.

[@ConcertLD]

They been doing this for years already with Iphones!! They intentionally increase the workload of newer software to run slower on older hardware. Can you really tell the difference from a picture taken with i Iphone 4s vs a iPhone 13 other than the file size?

[@wilcandou]

I saw this coming years ago, thats why ive been building up my redundancy of software based hardware with stand alone hardware. Now i can operate without the worry of the "updates" failing the external device(s). I still operate in the digital realm and patch some of my favourite analogue gear into my mix.

[@ryanlundgren]

I know it’s not ideal but you can connect an old Mac with the older OS to your new M1/2/3 via an Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter, and an Apple Thunderbolt cable. You enable Thunderbolt Bridge in Network Settings and all FireWire connections should work like normal.

[@TedDeSander]

Maybe with a Mc2Mac connection this works, but not with old FW Interfaces. Even if the ThunderboldBridge is enabled, they dont connect or show up. Sonoma simply ignores them.

[@DarthChrisJ]

Some comments on different parts of this video: The firewire audio driver will definitely be more than just "a few lines of code", and even if it's not receiving user-facing support anymore, they would still have to work on the code every year to keep it running against other kernel changes, so there would be work on Apple to keep that driver existing indefinitely. A few hundred thousand pieces of audio gear being recycled doesn't nullify environmental programs which are aimed at reducing the impact of the *hundreds of millions* of devices they sell each year. Apple doesn't get any money if you buy third party audio gear, so they can't be doing this for reasons of corporate greed. This cycle seems to repeat over and over with the audio industry - first it was the dropping of 32bit support affecting plugins, then it was the switch to Apple Silicon affecting plugins, now it's Firewire... technology moves on, it always has and it always will. The audio industry isn't immune to that, just like any other industry. Perhaps you could ask your audio hardware manufacturers why they aren't making their IO interfaces modular - if their firewire ports were removable, they would be able to offer a newer thunderbolt interface as an upgrade. *They* are the ones who have a direct profit motive for you to buy new gear, so it seems unlikely they would want to do that. Dropping support for older versions of USB is extremely unlikely - the deployed base of hardware is *massively* larger than that of Firewire, and each USB standard requires backwards compatibility with the earlier ones (ie USB 3 requires backwards compatibility for USB 2. USB 2 requires backwards compatibility for USB 1). Apple is also still shipping things which make use of USB 2, so that's not going anywhere anytime soon (as an example, the internal control interface used for macOS to be able to change brightness/settings on the $5000 Pro Display XDR, is USB2.0 because it doesn't need much bandwidth at all).

[@draxxicek]

It’s not like this wasn’t anticipated: they dropped FireWire a decade ago, supporting it for a few years onwards, but when El Capitan dropped the system FW support “softly” for the first time, I got the hint and sold all my beloved FW based studio gear, because I have expected this happening sooner than later.

[@MockeryManor]

Yeah exactly. Tech evolves…I always plan for it.

[@pigknickers2975]

Exactly. It's been on the way out for a long time. I did the same.

[@Scott__C]

MOTU stopeed updating their driver for my 896HD in 2019 or 2020. It still worked for the next OS but not the one after that.

[@codee-music]

Manufactured obsolescence with just a few pieces of code. I had to sell, an otherwise rock solid FW audio I/O, when I upgraded to the M1 Mac. It was a power trade off that still irks TF out of me.

[@djshineboy]

I’m sorry but Firewire is a pretty old protocol. It was suspected that support for it will stop at some point in time. And NO, they aren’t going to drop USB any time soon. There are just way too much devices in use that work on USB. And YES, for studios that still use Firewire devices it’s a pain in the … But to connect Firewire to a newer Mac you a,ready needed a convertor.

[@louderthangod]

Yeah, the complaints here are pretty weak. Heaven forbid people update interface every 15-20 years. Digital interfaces are not vintage consoles, you should be updating more often than that, you’re missing out on a world of new plugins, software and features. If you don’t like it then keep your 20 year old MacBook and don’t worry about it but then why aren’t you recording to tape if you’re trying to avoid obsolescence? This whole video is absurd. Nothing is “shocking” or “surprising” by this.

[@leicaman]

Betteridge's law of headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

[@mikevirtualteacher]

I was sad to find out that Apple is turning off these lines of code, there’s no need for that. Another possible solution not mentioned in the video and one that I’ve employed is to buy a smaller newer interface and then if your old FireWire interface has ADAT out and the new interface has ADAT in then you can just carry on using both interfaces. Of course this depends on your old interface having ADAT out and the new interface having ADAT in. In my case it seems incredibly stable. Hope this idea helps some people!

[@nepntzerZer]

you'll still need to run firewire to set up ADAT in the interfaces properly.

[@mikevirtualteacher]

@@nepntzerZer Hello and thank you for your input nepntzerZer, actually what I do is plug mics/line level etc. into my firewire interface but do not use the firewire out at all, I use an ADAT cable out from my firewire interface (Motu 8pre) and go into my newer interface (Audient ID 14 mkii) using the ADAT in on it's back. Doing it that way bypasses the firewire code problem as the newer interface will just deliver through USB C everything going into it. I hope that helps, cheers!

[@TedDeSander]

I have two FocusRite Saffire FW interfaces that now wont connect to my Mac. After bypassing that with an RME ADAT interface, I only had to configure the Saffires once with an old MacBook (it even has build in FW ports, that old).

[@Cefshah]

Apple MUST rethink what they've apparently done here. Come on, Apple... please get it together.

[@thejasontlewis]

I don't know of any current Mac models that can even run firewire. Nor do I know of any legacy Macs that can run the latest MacOS versions. So, anyone using firewire has been using obsolete gear for more than a decade. Sometimes you just have to upgrade if you want the latest stuff. Or you continue to run the old stuff at the risk of not being able to access support.

[@theblowupdollsmusic]

This was really great coverage and went in depth on the situation. Thank you for taking the time to make this video. It's really too bad they're phasing FireWire out. It's not like the FireWire standard is changing. So I wonder what the reasoning is.

[@JeremiahTrue]

I think Apple really doesn't like supporting legacy code and making sure that it's compliant with their modern systems. They have been a company that, over the years, has made sweeping changes that has left the consumer and accessories designers/owners in the lurch. The iPod connection is a classic example.

[@SamPinchesMakerShop]

Apple's drivers have always been a bit flakey. Firewire, bluetooth, Wifi, USB 3... it took all of them a long time to get them working reliably. I suspect the new Mx chipsets have caused a lot of redo work, and they simply didn't want to keep investing engineering time from a small team when they wanted to do other stuff. Aka -- a selfish motivation to design new products at cost of supporting old capabilities.

[@theblowupdollsmusic]

@@SamPinchesMakerShop I think you make some good points here. But I doubt they have a small team. It's apple.

[@MegaRlambert]

I have found a way to re-enable FireWire in newer Mac OS by turning off a few lines of code in the boot command line editor I was able to get my Midas Venice F32 fully functional with no issues at all. If I can find the article that lead me to this I will post it here. FW is still completely viable and Apple has no excuse to put such great equipment in obsolescence…

[@MeTuLHeD]

For years all of my friends who do pro and semi-pro recording: "Dude! You're a dinosaur! You need to move to Apple/Mac for your studio! It's the greatest thing since sliced bread!" Me today: *GRINNING*

[@ricknorris1466]

My advice is to find a point where you are happy with what you have, unplug your gear from the internet and enjoy it for the next 20 years.

[@matiasmoulin2126]

Thanks for letting us know! It’s simple: Just never update. I was making music on an Intel Mac running High Sierra for years, recently got an M1 with Monterey and I’m sure as hell I will keep it like that until I there’s no way around a new machine.

[@MemoGrafix]

Me and My Son was just talking about NEVER Updating on any Computer devices in general, by not connecting/enabling Ethernet/WiFi .

[@matiasmoulin2126]

@@MemoGrafix I wouldn't go THAT far. I just don't update the OS until there's a real good reason for doing it :-)

[@MemoGrafix]

@@matiasmoulin2126 - I know what You're saying. Me & Son are Windows users. We talked about back when he bought Us both a Dell 5675 he never connected his to the Internet. Said he never had a problem to this day and he only uses his for Music Software. Mine's connected and had _(fixable)_ problems occasionally. Me & Son also discussed when Windows 10 had a major upgrade in 2018, Peoples files got permanently erased, _(some people 20 years worth of files)._ VERY lucky for Me I previously blocked Windows from Updating/grade on My Dell by disabling automatic Windows Updates in the "Registry Editor." I *_only_* Enable Updates in Registry after 3+ months of *_knowing_* Windows Updates/grades on everyone else's PC's has no problems. Windows Registry Editor is _not_ for Novice users as You might know.

[@dna598]

Their silicon is great, and I am/was seriously eyeing the Mac studio. But their insane update schedule and planned obsolescence is just not something I want to deal with.

[@thecrarion4102]

Honestly, I’ve had my Mac Studio for about a year, and already am playing the waiting game waiting for my DAW and plugins to support Sonoma. I’m slightly regretting my choice, to be honest. But it was the path of least resistance for me. And Apple Silicon IS impressive technology for sure… I’m just not sure if it is worth the hassle, on balance.

[@unklmic]

That’s ridiculous. You are complaining because they are updating their hardware more often? Just because there is a newer one available, doesn’t make yours obsolete. I have the original Mac Studio and it is still the faster computer I have ever used. The alternative is to update them every 4 years and then pity the person who buys one just before they are updated. Some people will never be happy.

[@sunnohh]

Tbf they usually keep updates sent out for like 8 years…

[@lauriekibblewhite]

It's not only audio. Not all video needs to be 4K+, and there is a lot of older pro and consumer pro gear which is firewire dependent to download from a MiniDV tape system. I ended up building a PC with a firewire card installed so that I could continue to access my considerable tape archive when required. My experience with Apple was not good, and I reverted back to the "dark:" side. This news does not surprise me at all.

[@staygroovy-xg4yw]

This is correct, and for this reason I purchased a PCIe card that allows to keep transferring old tapes digitally.

[@bgbuilds2712]

I'm proud to say that I have never once owned an Apple product of any kind. Cubase, Nuendo, Reason, Fruity Loops, and VST's all day. Apple can eat a fat one.

[@kiersplat]

Hopefully the open source community will be able to pick up the slack and make a custom system extension that isn't unstable

[@PerJohansson-Xeizo]

I understand Mac is great and all for everyone using it, but I always avoided it liked the plague for: a. Expensive b. Lock in c. Planned obsolescence But then, if I where managing a big studio which I'm not, I might have had a hard time to avoid Mac as said in the video "industry standard" Backwards compatibility is a big thing imo

[@Scott__C]

For a while, but not forever.

[@apparition.spectre]

I'd suggest looking into Linux also. The least complicated apple-like low latency distro I can think of is PikaOS, initially created for gaming. it's one of the few distributions that can be setup almost entirely from the welcome screen from install, Gnome Edition for simplicity. 😊

[@Maximilian-Willert]

This is a very solid and golden tip! Thanks a lot for sharing!

[@joecandy6490]

Will i still be able to use my 5.1/2” floppy disc drive?

[@misterbonzoid5623]

Yes if it's USB

[@ltxr9973]

Apple's attitude towards backwards compatibility is exactly why I stopped using their stuff a long, long time ago

[@C80234O]

After I threw away, in a dumpster a bad ass apple G5 because apple quit supporting power PC, as a logic user at the time I had to keep updating OS, I finally was forced to buy a new machine. So sad! I bought a PC and switched to Cubase, and never looked back. Apple only cares about forcing people into purchasing new equipment. Thanks for your channel.

[@Doty6String]

Cubase is better than logic anyway

[@jemiller226]

And the reason so many people feel like Windows is a backwards OS is that it has to retain compatibility for all these old protocols almost no one uses anymore. Sounds to me like you could use that to your advantage here.

[@thomaspipermusic]

If you have a Apollo rack mount interface you can update form firewire to thunderbolt.I have an old Apollo interface and it works fine because you can update the connection to thunderbolt. How come Universal Audio knew this day was coming?

[@unclesaboin]

I found out about this the hard way a few weeks ago. I had decided to finally upgrade my OS from Monterey to Sonoma only to find out that my audio interface was no longer working after I had done the upgrade. I didn't know about this FW driver issue. I then downgraded to Ventura, thinking that the problem was only in Sonoma. Only after downgrading to Ventura did I read somewhere that Apple had decided to remove the FW drivers from Ventura on. I then downgraded back to Monterey. I'll stay on Monterey for as long as I need it to use my interface. I do plan to get a Thunderbolt interface eventually to replace my current one, but I still want to make this one last as long as possible. The main reason I switched to Apple computers was because I wanted to use Logic. I have been using Logic since before it was bought out by Apple, and it's my favourite DAW and the one I'm most familiar with. I'm definitely a fan of Apple's products, but the company, not so much. They have a history of screwing over their customers. And I don't believe for one minute that they sincerely care about the environment or sustainability. I think it's all a marketing strategy. They give themselves that image to attract more customers.

[@realraven2000]

Cutting functionality from your product like this doesn’t seem ethical unless there is a really really really good reason. This is one point were microsoft is just head and shoulders above Macintosh.

[@IlBiggo]

Macintosh is not a company.

[@realraven2000]

@@IlBiggo thanks for the clarification. This is one point were microsoft is just head and shoulders above Apple.

[@realraven2000]

@@IlBiggo to clarify further: One may throw shade at the (MS) operating systems, windows, but they are very good at allowing you to run old programs... Of course this is also what will hold back the progress of the platform, but they usually add new technologies in parallel. And the video may also overly simplify the topic with "a few lines of code". there may well be a lot more technological complexities and reasons here, so this is based on taking the video content at its face value.

[@IlBiggo]

@@realraven2000 The really really good reason is: Apple builds appliances, in a sense. They don't make boxes for hobbyist fun or for IT experts. You may have fun disassembling a Mac and modifying it (I sometimes do), and you may even run your mad lab on Macs, if you're not trying to connect an Altair8800 to your home network. It's just not the primary scope of a Mac. In short: if your goal is to pass the weekends with your head in the bonnet, "upgrading" the engine, you don't buy a Tesla. Firewire has disappeared from Macs since 2013. Demanding support for it 10 years later is ridiculous. The right thing to demand is that the audio gear manufacturers upgrade their hardware to the current standards.

[@TedDeSander]

This hit me this year. I switched from a PC based studio setup to a new MacStudio and couldn't connect to my Focusrite Saffire Interfaces. First I thought it was a problem with the two necessary adaptors (USB-C > Thunderbold > Firewire), but then I realised the real big problem, reading about it in some forums. I dont want to buy new gear and put the old ones in the garbage, so I looked and found a RME USB3 > 4xADAT Interface, that now connects the In-/Outputs to the Mac. Being from Germany, I'm used to such problems. About 10-12 years ago we had so much troubles with wireless instrument and InEar systems, as the government sold the frequencies they gave us a few years before to the mobile telefone companies. For our band it was a loss of about 6000-7000€. You only could throw intact and working systems away and buy new ones, there was no other possibility.

[@karmakaruna]

Another option is to keep older-generation computers around in tandem with new models to run the old peripherals. yes, it makes the workflow a little messier doing some work in the secondary PC and then having to move the projects over to the modern one, but you could have a new interface attached to the new mac and have whatever new OS features you need from ventura/sonoma while keeping the rest of your setup exactly the same.

[@le-berry]

The magic word you used several times…….. STILL

[@andrewcane]

That's what I do. I've got G4 Macs all the way up to a 2021 Mac Book Pro with 3 cMac Pros running systems back to El Capitan. I could still run Tiger if I wanted to.

[@karmakaruna]

I got a machine from every major hardware change (68k/PowerPC/Intel/M1), just in case something doesn't work in emulation, but I also have a VMware instance of every single OS X version, even a few betas from the OS 9 transition lol. Sheepshaver for everything even older. Having a second ASIO DAC connected to share directly to the VM allows you to have audio that doesn't stutter. @@andrewcane

[@staceygruver1969]

This is the Apple motto, since they decided to eliminate the replaceable battery in cellphones. And this idea that everyone needs a brand new cellphone every single year, now just a couple of decades ago, you bought one home phone and it lasted your entire life, now a cellphone is obsolete in less than 6 months.

[@Byron101_]

I think things are being over-dramatized here. Computer technology was and is always changing and Firewire is very old. The audio industry is one of the smallest and very few people in the world have an Apple computer. And a modern audio interface can always do way more than just using old devices. People spend so much money a year on equipment, instruments and plugins and software. After more than eight years a studio and pro users will be able to afford a new interface. USB 3 is just as powerful as firewire and this the future. The older USB 2 is also great to use in theses times, because it can handle 24 in/outs parallel in realtime...see RME, Motu, Focusrite e.g.

[@devids51]

Imagine thinking for a second any large organisation ever cared about the environment

[@thedeepblueskys]

I had this happen years ago by upgrading my OS. So I decided to get my system to an optimal working state and shut off all auto updates for the OS, software, and plugins… thus not changing anything about the operating system and it’s functionality with the software in its current smooth running state. If I wanna upgrade to new software and plugins I have the mindset that I will just have to get a new computer and possibly controllers/interfaces. My 2010 MacBook Pro is still my main studio computer even though I own later models for outside the home. The 2010 still works great for recording and mastering tracks. I just can’t trust Apple to render this equipment obsolete. So no updates allowed.

[@alexoliverdj]

Same here. Everyone needs to read this comment, I think as soon as you understand that you don’t need to be mind trapped into the Update, you will be doing exactly what you want to do: music. If you are constantly thinking about getting the last, your purpose will fade out. Simple.

[@flotopo]

This is one of the many reasons why I am not an Apple user.

[@dm8579]

the only surprising thing in this story is that Apple kept supporting FireWire for so long. It has been dead for many years, and they have hinted that support will be removed for future operating systems for how many years now? The manufacturers already stopped supporting their old FW devices with drivers for several versions of macOS.

[@zero9fourrenaissance968]

It's called "Planned Obsolescence". Just like soldering in RAM and hard drives and attempting to circumvent user configurability, they want you to buy new gear instead of upgrading or customizing what you already own. It's despicable. They hate you.

[@dkpianist]

Metric Halo (a much underrated, almost esoteric company) have addressed this by switching their entire platform to ethernet. You need a physical upgrade (the so called 3d card) for that which also gives you more DSP power for internal mixing operations, additional connectivity options and a better clock. The upgrade does have its price but it's still cheaper than buying an all new interface. Probably a wise decision since ethernet certainly isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and Applee isn't in a position to pull the plug on it. Sucks if your MacBook doesn't have an ethernet port though. Then you're back to using those lovely adapters.

[@Featherlightstudio]

Great info, thanks for the heads up!

[@popsarocker]

Shout out to Metric Halo. I bought several firewire 400 based 2882's right around the turn of the century - still use them. MH transitioned to USB-C and IP based connections about 15 Mac OS's ago and offered a roadmap not just to update the connections but also the functionality and even pre-amps. I could care less about Apple TBH, but being eco friendly is not just the responsibility of Apple - it's on everyone participating in the computer / audio ecosystem

[@lavalizard1]

FireWire was a risky investment even back in the late 90’s (when I first used it to connect external hard drives). In 2015 I would have raised a red flag against buying any hardware using this. I feel for folks with old hardware but I don’t see this has much to do with corporate greed. Thunderbolt and USB-C have moved into such a stable place in the past 10 years. “End of FireWire” has been in the cards for ages - it was an increasingly niche, vendor-specific format which again should raise a lot of alarm bells.

[@bbfoto7248]

@lavalizard1 I fail to see how Firewire devices were "a risky investment," LOL. Myself and MILLIONS of others have used a plethora of Firewire-based devices between pro audio gear, professional still & video cameras, desktop & laptop computers, portable HDD/SSD/removable memory readers....on and on, with NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER. Unlike USB 1.0 & 2.0, at the time and currently, you could/can Daisy-Chain Firewire devices, which meant needing less physical ports and space, in addition to simpler and more streamlined connections. AND, as this video stated, there are STILL A LOT of individuals and professionals using Firewire-connected devices which still perform their requested and desired tasks perfectly with no issues 24/7. So WHY deem them useless and Force them to be replaced and end up in a landfill? There is absolutely NO LOGICAL REASON to "disable" a valid connection protocol in an OS (and therefore the hardware) IF it doesn't conflict with newer or current connection standards! Backward compatibility is ALWAYS a benefit and can SAVE YOUR @SS in a pinch. And it's not as if Firewire requires some giant connector like an old DB25-pin Parallel or Serial connection...which BTW are still used and supported on MODERN Pro Audio equipment such as rackmount 8-channel mic preamp units with A/D & D/A conversion in order to make connections WAY more compact and streamlined. I, and I'm sure many others, still have A LOT of music/recordings, data, AND still photography & video Backed-Up and ARCHIVED on Firewire-based HDD & SSD drives. It will be a huge PITA if I and others can no longer access that data quickly and easily. Again, a few miniscule lines of code out of the BAZILLIONS in the OS is NOT going to slow down or hinder the OS from doing what it needs to do. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.

[@enossifiedossified3145]

Like Thunderbolt, FW offered one huge advantage over USB and it wasn’t just speed, because USB has kept up over the years. The advantage is that both use a peer-to-peer connection and support daisy chaining…i.e. no hubs needed. I had my FW audio interface chained to my Yamaha Motif and that was connected to the computer with one FW cable into the Mac carrying up to 36 channels of audio and 32 channels of MIDI. Now that everything I use is USB, I ended up buying a Tbolt 4 dock. If USB supported daisy chaining, I might not need 4 downstream USB ports for my audio and MIDI gear and two more for my external drives.

[@1clap]

How can you say that 'thunderbolt moved into such a stable place' ?!? I have a 32'' LG widescreen with Thunderbolt 2 ports that connects to no other Apple device now than my old MBP15'' since Apple hasn't left even one Thunderbolt 2 port on any of their M1, M2, M3 devices.. !!

[@WarrenPostma]

Firewire was technically superior to USB 1 and USB 2.0, for low latency applications like audio. The problem with firewire was the legal/licensing issues, and Apple's exodus from putting Firewire ports on it was its death knell. There was nothing wrong with firewire until Apple itself guranteed its death. Firewire remains superior even to the latest USB standards, for low latency, and now that Thunderbolt exists, finally at last Firewire has a true successor. I would have liked to see Apple continue thunderbolt to firewire interop support.

[@dog61]

@@1clapa TB3 to TB2 adapter solves this problem and it's completely seamless.

[@bassdroppointsource]

The story around FireWire is a bit more complicated than it may seem at first. Remember first that FireWire was ratified in 1995 when security was an afterthought at best. Apple has for several years been moving away from kernel extensions because of the security and stability issues of running application code at that level of the OS. Most kernel extension based apps were able to migrate to system extensions that could be then controlled via the System Integrity Protocol, however because the FireWire spec is based on direct memory access it is unclear if that is actually possible. So we must consider the very strong possibility that this nearly 30 year old protocol simply cannot be supported in a modern OS that also has to keep users' systems secure to the level expected. Accordingly, as much as Apple does at times warrant full side eye and derision, I don't think that the issue is as simple as it is laid out here and the core issue is not that Apple seemingly decided to delete a few lines of code just because they wanted to put the screws to their users.

[@Scott__C]

Exactly. Once the 3rd revision of Thunderbolt used the USB C connector years ago, I knew it wouldn't be long until it wasn't supported anymore.

[@pjmverbruggen]

Very difficult topic. Apple has always been great in ditching functionality; first to remove diskdrives, first to remove cd rom drives, how about the jack, removing the old 30-pin connector that made my audio interface obsolete. It’s no fun, but a neccesary evil of software and hardware development. You can’t just keep adding to an OS. Before you know it, it becomes bloated, slow, unstable and the user experience will be it’s undoing. So money grab it’s definitely not. Apple provided a grace period for 8 years. Luckily you can still run old macs and start saving for fresh gear.

[@priyonjoni]

This is an example of when people don't understand coding and development. "It's just a few lines of code" exemplifies a fundamental lack of understanding of how coding works, and ignorance of the consequences of a few lines of code. Apple, with all their flaws, has given 5 years of warnings that firewire support is going away. Everyone using it had 5 years to upgrade their 5-8 year old interfaces. There is a reason they are trying to get rid of it and moving forward. And 10 year old legacy interfaces in a relatively small amount of the market is no longer a viable reason for keeping something that is more trouble than it is worth. As far as all existing firewire devices, the ones (with a caveat) with ADAT can still be used as expansions to new interfaces. Some devices easier than others to use as expansions. "What if they take USB away" is a terrible analogy. Unlike Firewire, everybody uses USB, and as evident from it's evolution, is still around, much longer than Firewire. There are far more uses for USB than what the market used for Firewire, or Thunderbolt for that matter. Unlike Firewire which acounts for less than 0.1% of the market, USB is used by 100% of the market today. So USB is not going away.

[@M.W.777]

I keep old systems specifically for this reason! First of all, you don't have to upgrade if your system is working properly! Another thing is planned obsolescense -- it is what it is 🤷🤷‍♂🤷‍♀

[@philxdev]

nah "it is what it is" is not an argument.... same as "it has always been like that".... those are idiotic excuses.

[@M.W.777]

The sooner you accept reality and move forward, the better!@@philxdev

[@pauljohnfox]

If only Reason hadn’t turned off authentication servers and basically told everyone to eff off. So it is going to be (or has already become) a bigger problem than just not upgrading your system. And “it is what it is,” as relates to being burned and burned again and burned again by these companies that SOME of us spend half our income on can’t be sustainable. Apple Support isn’t anymore. Oh sure there’s a number to call but it’s just reinstall, upgrade, or buy a new one. There are no other options and if you need to sustain your data, you’re on your own. I’m not at all impressed with Apple anymore and as a disabled person on a fixed income, these moves they’re making are literally destroying the shreds of resources the thieves and other crooks haven’t already claimed.

[@user-im5ud8co3k]

I´m one of those victims. I had a perfectly working Focusrite Saffire 56, I didn´t upgrade the macos in my Mac mini for years to be able to continue use it. After upgrading to a Mac Studio I had sadly no other option than to buy a new interface. Shame on you Apple.

[@bearpitrock]

If you have a Saffire Pro 40 now out of action you can convert it to 10 channel Preamp using the original MixControl software. You WILL need access to mac that is running no higher than 10.15 Catalina. I think Big Sur 11 might work but that seemed to be the slippery slope. It's super easy. it's just a setting. I've hooked mine up to an Audient ID14 mk2 via toslink. Works great. You will need to ensure the sample rate for your project is the same as the device (48khz, I think).

[@Featherlightstudio]

Great Suggestion

[@TehSyneS]

thats very unfortunate because there are still many firewire products that still work with thunderbolt. This will cost alot of people alot of money.

[@bassgoul]

MacOs has a way too aggressive update cycle that renders older software unusable if you update your OS, or newer programs wont work on slightly older OS... so you're forced into a lockstep upgrade path for both OS and software upgrades (operating system upgrades often break things for a while too). not good for the wallet. also moves like what's mentioned here are completely unnecessary. I'm currently on a Windows machine i built in 2009 running windows 10 from windows 7 running firewire devices... and will continue to do so in windows 11. I understand why some people like mac but it is not at all friendly for backwards/forward compatibility and longevity

[@Scott__C]

Take note though, Microsoft isn't going to be doing the forever backward compatible thing going forward. They learned their lesson with XP. They were supporting it for some big clients until only a couple of years ago, which of course those companies paid a lot for.

[@bassgoul]

@@Scott__C i am confident Microsoft will maintain a much looser upgrade path than apple ever has, even if they get more aggressive with it. Users will still be able to install older software on new systems and new software on older systems for quite some time without breaking everything in the process, and requiring that you pay for a 3 year old software upgrade in order to be able to update your OS and still use said software

[@DandanGallagher]

My studio has been setup upon FireWire connection for 13 years now. I already had a huge headache when I bought a more modern Mac in 2017 and had to buy lots of adapters to make it all work. We use Logic Pro X and the last MacOS update to both the desktop computers and MacBook Pros was Catalina, and that was not without a ton of problems which almost drove me crazy. We used Mountain Lion for 7 years before updating again. So far, the thing that upsets me the most is not being able to update Logic as it’s still stuck in version 10.4.8 I think. But at least it works handsomely right now. Let’s see how much more time can we still use this system until all goes to shit and we have to buy new computers and new gear. It’s ridiculous.

[@harveybc]

This would be a great opportunity for a company to build an interface, certainly a processor based item, to interface with firewire. I don't know enough of hos this works to be sure but I'd bet it can be done.

[@DangerousDevilOfficial]

This is the very question I asked with my comment here. Is if one existed? And as you said, it likely could be done if it doesn’t. 🤷‍♂️

[@DJDXD]

Can’t someone just make a FireWire converter that tricks macOS into thinking it’s a usb-c or thunderbolt protocol?

[@TonyChungLive]

I feel bad that I complained that MOTU didn't update the FW drivers for my OG Traveler (circa 2001). I should have known it has always been an Apple issue. I got a good deal on a Scarlett 18i20 USB interface but because it doesn't have the four bus routing options that I use for my business/music setup I still haven't turned it on. I originally complained that Apple lets computers pollute landfills (recycling is a myth, BTW) when even my 2009 MacBook Pro 13" would still be a workable computer IF it was allowed to run a later macOS. Even recent web browsers have switched to 64-bit architecture and shut down support for early OS X devices. I like how Apple enjoys pushing the boundaries of the future, but really wish they would also consider the rest of us who can't afford to drop cash at every new piece of kit, but still want to have our old machines working while they are still physically operational.

[@kenkrupnik9136]

Yes, I am one who is affected by this situation. Homeland Rescue Recordings uses a now older Mac Pro computer & Apogee Ensemble audio interface. I laid out over $7000 to buy the system for my studio, and now it’s useless. Bad Apple, bad on you.

[@JeremiahTrue]

I had two Motu UltraLite interfaces that were my main I/O on Mac. When one of them lost it's screen and I couldn't get it serviced, I switched to Focusrite but I still prefer the form factor and simplicity of Motu. This is especially true when I could fit 2x of those units in one rack space and have 16 channels I/O without needing a second rack for a OctoPre or some other SPDIF interface that the Scarlett will need to get eight more channels into.

[@waltertill1388]

Hi! intersting video! thanks! - i have no problem with firewire on Mac Studio running ventura... still works...

[@Mefistophelees]

I can understand Apple doing away with support for things like Firewire storage as things like that are rapidly replaced with new, better tech, however an audio interface isn't made obsolete when a new one comes out. Interfaces and desks can be in use for years, or even decades. How does Apple not know this? How can they have such a fundamental misunderstanding of the audio industry? As for me, I have a Makie 1640i 16 channel desk which also funtions as a 16 in/out interface which my Mac no longer speaks to. There's no need whatsoever for me to change it.

[@matiasmoulin2126]

I think they know but they don’t care because as always they just look at sales numbers. Steve Jobs’ model was improving. Tim Cooks model is slapping a dazzling gimmick around the face of the addicted consumer every 6 month. Those are more people than the hobbyist home producers, hence better sales numbers.

[@puppetsnob]

I have been using a 2012 macbook pro and an RME fireface 400 for years. Now, Apple has declared the 2012 macbook pro (the most upgradeable Mac product I've ever had -- now with 2TB SSD, 16 Gb ram and always a fresh new battery) extinct. We have ways to upgrade it to Monterey and beyond but the Fireface won't be able to come along for the ride. I have no use for a modern interface -- this one works as is. It hasn't stopped working. No new features are needed. I OWN it. And yet a corporation can kill it arbitrarily -- in this case, one that could not sell a single product for a decade and STILL have cash. We need to be more like the EU and not let companies do ANYTHING they want.

[@michaelstram]

There was a big issue with the 5.1 and 6.1 Mac pros and firewire. It's part of why a lot of people around that time were making a hackintosh. C-States on the 1366 era CPU would cause what's known as coil whine. If you had a 1366 CPU Mac Pro and a firewire audio device, you could hear the coil whine coming off the motherboard. Removing or disabling C-State, especially C1 , would stop this whine on a windows pc. fun times.

[@fallenleaf24]

I remember that..

[@HenkvanHoek]

I have ditched apple a few years ago for the reason apple announced they discontinue firewire. I switched to Windows slowly. It was as reliably as Mac. No regrets. In the end it is much cheaper.

[@vandenhengel978]

I heard they will stop supporting steam locomotives soon too. Could be a rumoir tough.

[@zibbezabba2491]

I hate shit jokes.

[@bloepje]

Linux has full support for firewire audio, and will have it for the foreseeable future. Linux has support for PTP, real time audio over ethernet. Linux is also used in DJ controllers from denon. Linux was the second OS to get full support for Final Scratch, the first commercial digital dj setup. Linux was the first to support the jack real time audio standard, which has several commercial clones. So I am still wondering why apple became the defacto "standard". I have a clue: there was a lot of FUD from microsoft against linux, which was the real defacto standard on DAW, and it was very easy to stop using that crap and stepping up. But come on guys... you do it to yourself. Just stop supporting Apple and Microsoft. Support companies that use open standards.

[@Scott__C]

When computers were coming into studios, Linux was terrible and not user friendly at all. Its still lags in a lot of respects.

[@AlexValliMusic]

There does come a point where a standard has to either be improved, changed, or die. The FireWire standard was improved and changed and developed into Thunderbolt. That's all well and good, but the thing about a 25 maybe more year old standard is there's only so much you can do to improve it before it gets changed to the point that the old code just becomes bloatware and the adoption for the old tech is just non-existent therefore such old code can bog down a system and make it just as unstable as a brand new protocol being implemented on a new platform. Although contrary to what I just said about systems being unstable with old code, some code is just so stable that it'll work forever. Do I think Apple could still support the FireWire protocol? Possibly, but do I think that it's a major problem them dropping it? No... Now this is the first time I've heard about Apple dropping the firewire protocol, so I don’t know 🤷🏻‍♂ if they even announced it was getting dropped eventually or if they just pulled the rug out from under everyone. If Apple had announced at any point, at least 1 year prior, that they were dropping FireWire, that should've been sign to everyone, Okay it's time to adapt to change and get their systems in shape.

[@rogervianna4918]

120v AC is a very old standard I wonder how long before Apple manages to deem it obsolete and come up with an entirely new electrical supply system you can only buy from them at ridiculously inflated prices

[@carlkolthoff5402]

Things like these are the main reason I tend to stick to open source. It may not always have the shiniest bells and whistles, but it's dependable. Free software used to mean that you could change parts of the code to adapt it to your own needs, and that you didn't have to pay when downloading. Today, I feel that it's more about freedom from user hostile corporate decisions.

[@brianwilliams4254]

i was just thinking the same thing. I just bought my first Mac Pro with M3 chip and this is seriously a bummer for sure. I mean Windows systems maybe slower or not run as strong as a Mac, but at least ya can work on it and make it work to your needs and not be at the mercy of some bean counter in a major corp, who is out of touch with whats going on in the audio world.

[@carlkolthoff5402]

@@brianwilliams4254 well, Microsoft could do what Apple have done too. Same with Google, they're notorious for ending support for popular products with fairly large user bases. I'm talking about Linux and the stuff you find on Github. Some things may need some more initial tinkering, but once you get it running it will never break because of a forced update. A few well known DAWs and plugins release official Linux versions, but sadly most don't. I've made the choice to generally avoid proprietary OS and software in my studio as that works best for me and the things I do. But I could easily understand why many people wouldn't choose the same path, as it comes with its own set of challenges.

[@stephendenagy3396]

Part of the problem is how the industry is so dependent on computers for recording and manipulating the audio data. Back in the “day,” analog multichannel recording gear was the standard. And you could stack equipment until the cows came home, or noise killed you. But everything worked forever as it was analog. Maybe decades. Maybe some of it still works today. With all its attendant warts. But that day has passed. This is a different era with virtual devices and various communication protocols. I hate to say it, but the risk of obsolescence is part of the penalty for the transition. 15 years is an amazing run. The obvious solution is to use older computers. With the older gear security can be managed by limiting the use of the device and its access to the Internet/extranet. No emails, not social media. Your older Mac is now a dedicated front end to your FireWire recording set. Off load via network or physical media (not a bad idea for projects anyway). The world hasn’t ended. Just a little more complicated. My body needs more maintenance as I age. So will your studio rig.

[@valpd]

An option you didn't list is to change your OS. Linux supports 99% of hardware out there and there are great applications that replace whatever you have. This is a free option. I work in Linux with Harrison Mixbus. I prefer it over Protools and most other DAWs I have worked with.

[@harrumphy]

I don’t have any soundinterfaces running FireWire, but I keep a few hard drives with it. FireWire was great for storing and using video media for VJ’ing with, especially in tandem with DJ’ing, since FireWire didn’t add workload to the processors the way a USB connection does.

[@NiegelDK]

Most people probably wouldn't even notice this change. I personally haven't used firewire cables for the past decade or so and most audio interfaces being released today have USB-C instead of Firewire. Its been a good cable but i don't mind this change at all.

[@jojobach]

Even if the gear is using usb-c ports, many are still using usb 2.0 protocol. Imagine that Apple decides to dump usb 2.0 support in their future OSs… We really don’t need more speed than usb 2.0 for most audio gear, except for a really high number of channels with really high bit rates. And USB 2.0 is almost as old as FireWire protocol. If we don’t speak up, we’ll continue to be governed by these companies arbitrary caprices.

[@AaronFigFront]

@@jojobach2.0 is included in 3.0…

[@jojobach]

@@AaronFigFront FireWire was also included in Thunderbolt 1&2 protocol. Did that stopped them? Or am I missing something?

[@AaronFigFront]

@@jojobachThey are not USB protocols. There are videos on the history of the race the protocols. USB protocols’ mission is different.

[@macbrush]

Our studio keeps everything in the same era, especially computer and software. If we upgrade, we upgrade everything together.

[@jptaylor]

This is just the way of the world - I dumped all my FireWire stuff ages ago. Time and tech always moves on. It’s naive to think that the current tech will stay in place forever. You wanna play in the game, you have to stay open-minded with your choice of tech.

[@valdir7426]

they're actively removing 5 lines of code to fuck users. this is incredibly shitty. it may be the way of the world but if you were unaware the world we live in suck big time. Thank god they don't bother crippling the thunderbolt protocol and I still can use my interface with a driver.

[@bbfoto7248]

@jptaylor I somewhat agree. HOWEVER, it doesn't cost Apple ANYTHING to keep 3 simple lines of code in the OS which will not affect or hinder an OS with a BAZILLION lines of code in it. Your new MAC isn't going to slow down or come crashing to a halt due to this! And it's not like Firewire uses some huge connectors like the old DB25 & DB9 parallel and serial ports. This will cause UNECESSARY interruptions in workflow and a PURCHASE of New Equipment in order to keep something working that was already working perfectly. It would be like Tesla pushing an OTA update while you are already en-route that disables charging your vehicle from any remote charging station other than Tesla's own stations. i.e. You've got a perfectly functioning vehicle, but no way to actually drive it now in order to get home or to your planned destination. Of course, the car would have still charged perfectly fine with no issues at the non-Tesla charging station, but some young, random zit-faced engineer at Tesla somehow decided that those other non-Tesla charging stations are "useless" and "old tech" because HE or SHE has never personally needed to RELY on them in THEIR "use case scenario" for day-to-day life or their livelihood. Pffft!

[@KerteszHuba]

I had to keep my "old" 2012 Mac mini because of the Firewire port. One of the main recording desks in my studio is a Midas Venice F24 with Firewire, and I use the console as a sound card with the built-in microphone preamps and EQs. The console is still analog, has a nice sound to it, and allows me to record a whole band with it. The old operating system, coupled with the last supported version of Logic on the Mac, doesn't support any of my current plugins. However, if I use this setup only for recording and my new MacBook for mixing, it works fine, I guess.

[@TazzSmk]

Apple finally recognized USB 2.0 exists and finally puts its USB-C on its brand new phones, so it's not likely to phase out USB Class-Compliance, in fact Apple is phasing out driver/kext support (see RME's video on new DriverKit less-privilleged driver mode in MacOS now) in the name of security obsessions

[@anthonyptak8650]

So tired of companies bricking the studio I paid for

[@KUMStudio1]

Thank you for this video. Do you have any info will this happend also with PCIe protocol too? For example if you use PCIe sound interface connected to thunderbolt with expansion chassis to Mac Studio.

[@lapalmaspiral3902]

Precisely what happened to me buying a Midas F16, great small tracking and mixing console,but working on PT it already got out of date, no driver, after just a few years of use.. nasty.. but isn’t that with most our digital gear..it just outdates so fast.. so we’d buy more and again and again… All of my great analog gear, bought 30 or 20 years ago, is still usable top stuff now

[@needsLITHIUM]

There is a reason a lot of older cats running studios, still use older Macs running on Intel, or even IBM PowerPC, architectures, and they simply keep everything they use and need up to the most recent versions they can get working on that hardware, activate all their software, and then they unplug it from the internet, and it stays that way, permanently air-gapped, from then onward. I know more than a few studio owners in my local area who operate this way, and fear of this is why.

[@stevenleonmusic]

That's not necessarily a bad way to operate though. It's not much different than keeping around classic analog EQ. If you own a Pultec, why would you throw it out and use a VST emulation just because it's newer and exists? Unless you're mixing for movies, the underlying tech behind audio formats hasn't evolved in over 20 years so there's no reason a DAW setup from 2003 with no updates can't still produce amazing music in 2023.

[@Featherlightstudio]

@@stevenleonmusicThis is a great point and I think a lot of what's driving the popularity of analog

[@PurpleMusicProductions]

​@@FeatherlightstudioI agree. Buying analog is an investment because companies like Apple cannot take it away from you once they end supporting it. People too easily discard the old ways until...😂

[@needsLITHIUM]

@@stevenleonmusic It's not my cup of tea to operate that way, but I'm in my 30's and broke, lol, and these older guys I mentioned absolutely make some killer stuff. Everything is done old school, and speaking of rack gear, they have a ton of it, modern and vintage. Operating the modern way only makes sense if you're mostly working in the box, or if you're broke, or both.

[@needsLITHIUM]

@@stevenleonmusic If I wanted to track and process live drums, I would totally go to one of these dudes. If I wanted to use a Pultec on my guitars buss, or run a tube compressor on the master, I would employ the crap outta them. I can mic up a drum kit just fine, but I don't have all the gear for, or experience with, mixing and processing them.

[@davewills6121]

If i were a company like apple, ide pay a handful of contractors to keep this old gear ticking over for its customer base, it would be nothing to them, a simple gesture like that can secure a customer for life, or loose one. If you are of a certain age, you soon realise, good products, excellent support and goodwill from a company are possibly the most important factors in choosing a peice of equipment/software, price, as far as im concerned is usually last on the list, and im no rockerfella by a long shot.

[@Weston_Guidero]

Even with firewire being outdated some of these commentors need to realize that.. A. Someones piece of gear they bought and invested in should still work, because physically it still works. Imagine if they did eventually take away support for something more widely used. B. Apple taking away the support just by removing a line of code is pretty insane, when they really don't have to do it. I don't understand why they are doing this? What's the harm in keeping it? Potential software failure? I highly doubt it.

[@lexvox44]

kexts have been deprecated which means future updates won't take them into account which in turn means the whole basis on which these kexts worked is going away. This is missing context in this video and it paints a false picture. There's tons of other reasons to get mad at apple but this aint one.

[@Bigheadedwon]

Hardware has a life span, I’m a DJ and 2 years ago Serato randomly removed support for 2 old audio interfaces and a controller. If you updated Serato they’d no longer work. Nothing had changed where they couldn’t work. Serato just decided to remove them as supported devices. They obviously had a reason to do this. But they could have left the drivers in and all would still be happily functioning today. It’s called EOL, and it isn’t uncommon. Just makes headlines when it’s Apple doing it.

[@ansmfella]

As a professional I the audio industry.. I used to love and be so happy having switched to Apple back in 2000,, stood behind them 100%, very satisfied as end user for nearly a decade after... Then began to regret my investment as time moved forward and their business model began to change... IMO it all began once they turned to intel chips, and cutting hardware corners, then soldering and preventing user upgrades, forced obsolescence, trying to lock out third party repairs, even bricking their products. Then in the name of "progression" slowly removing universally accepted standards like headphone jack, USB in favour of their proprietary "advancements"... I just want to focus at the tasks at hand, reliably without having to dedicate a great portion of my time, money and energy keeping up with Apple year after year

[@caldarion2506]

"just a few lines of code" . LOL, you have no clue what code is? Certainly you have no clue what's involved to sustain support for old devices and protocol subsystems. OS developers care for scalability over thousands of logical cpus, memory locality, warm caches, lockless concurrency and whatnot. They dont ditch fw for fun or to annoy you.

[@WarrenPostma]

More likely it's a precursor to, or caused by, api signature changes, which would require reworking the existing firewire CoreAudio components. Rather than rework a long ago deprecated feature, they have removed it. They probably do have internal rules about how long before they will remove kernel modules. Firewire ports have been gone for over 15 years from most Macs, and the fact that you could put a firewire PCIe card in a mac and use it until 2023 is longer than Apple usually gives us to move along. My 2008 imac was the last mac I owned with firewire.

[@valdir7426]

lol people have been reintroducing support by just copying the kext file from monterey and modifying one line of code but go on about how complicated that is.

[@paullegg9682]

I added the new few lines of code to Ventura and now my Agogee Ensemble is working. So it is a few lines of code. But I did have to disable my System integrity to allow the firewire to be recognized again. So this video is 100% right.

[@paulmontgomery4696]

Wow! Interesting perspective. Not affected by the removal of that code but genuinely appreciate the perspective.

[@profbx5258]

Ok, this is easily the one of the most “5 minutes of research would debunk” videos I’ve watched in a while. I’m kind of in shock at the FUD happening. 1. Apple announced depreciation of KEXTS in MacOS 10.15. So…2019. The reason is really really simple. Kexts are low level extensions that cannot be tied to your computer security policy, so you can basically run whatever you want without a care. They warned you 5 years ago that kexts were no longer viable for driver use, but still give developers the ability to use kexts provided you shut off your security policy. Which leads to….. 2. Apple, after five years, removed the kext for FireWire. So, basically practicing what they preach…..after again a FIVE YEAR WARNING. 3. You keep talking about class compliant FireWire like it’s really a thing. UA? Nope. Focusrite? Nope. Mackie? Nope. How is that PreSonus Studio Live working for you? Probably not so well given that PreSonus hasn’t updated their installer to even give an option to install on an M1 Mac from 2020. Manufacturers made their FireWire interfaces doorstops long before this point, with UA being the only one I can think of who made any effort…..by updating their kext based drivers even though they have had five years to find a solution. (Side note, want a KRK Ergo? It’s FireWire! How about a Focusrite Forte? Oh yea, it’s USB2, but Focusrite doesn’t bother updating their drivers on like….anything but whatever, that’s Apple’s fault as well I guess) 3. You can’t upgrade a computer purchased before 2019 to the latest macOS. So that whole fear of upgrading your OS and not being able to use your FireWire devices is limited to if you also upgraded your computer. 4. Device obsolescence is something that manufacturers cause way more than Apple. See above. You are acting like Apple did this to you, but manufacturers did this to you already years ago. Maybe you got lucky as you already had something installed and when you upgraded only got a legacy extension warning. Only problem is that you, again, have been getting these pop up warnings every year since 2019 and chose to ignore them. You chose to believe that nothing would ever change even though Apple warned you. 5. Finally, the USB thing. Where do I start? If it is class compliant it will continue to work because it is on the USB stack which was updated years and years ago. If manufacturers don’t update their drivers because they didn’t make their device class compliant, that is on them, not Apple. Again, perfect example is the Focusrite Forte. The only reason why it doesn’t work is that Focusrite won’t update their driver. You know what the driver did? It literally just controlled the preamp relay circuit switching. Not audio. The freaking relay circuit switch. The unit still is capable of passing audio, but they couldn’t be bothered to do the minimum to make it work. You aren’t a developer. When you say “a few lines of code” it is just so insulting. You don’t program. You are an audio engineer. Let’s say that a client comes into your studio and tells you that recording and mixing is just easy because you “are just twisting a few knobs”. You probably would tell the client to find another studio right? Don’t talk about software development like you know what you are talking about based on five minutes of reading hot takes on Gearspace. You are just leading your viewers to get angry at the wrong companies for the wrong reasons. You want to get them angry at someone? How about telling them to be angry at the manufacturers who didn’t even give five years of support on products that they put out that weren’t even FireWire. Lastly, I still know studios with Powermac Pro Tools HD rigs that work today. If your big happy feelings hinge on you updating your computer to run an operating system that doesn’t actually enable you to run anything new audio related that you don’t need then you have bigger problems.

[@wayvves]

Apple and the manufacturers should share a tax for making tech obsolete for no reason it creates so much e waste.

[@asmundma]

Storm in a glass! Firewire is way too old, stopped using it 8 years ago

[@kellygreenii]

Agreed. In fact I just sold my last piece of FireWire gear….

[@valdir7426]

some of us still have top of the line interfaces from 10 years ago and would like to keep using them; we don't care about your particular case

[@kellygreenii]

@@valdir7426 It’s an obsolete standard that doesn’t make Apple any money any more. They were not going to support it forever. It stopped being usable on PC about 10 years ago.

[@asmundma]

@@valdir7426the are not top of the line any more. But just use an old macos, and you are good to go.

[@darwiniandude]

FireWire WAS great. It arrived at a time of slow CPUs, and slow USB. USB was 11Mbps at the time and FireWire was capable of 400Mbps. (I'm using a lowercase b to indicate Megabits, not MegaBytes btw) More importantly, FireWire worked differently and so it have much lower latency and far less CPU overhead. Running audio over USB was computationally expensive. For the longest time USB Audio devices were only at most 4in4out - for more you had to look to FireWire. FireWire also provided (on the Mac at least, not on PC laptops) power to run your external audio interface for recording anywhere. PC notebooks had 4 pin FireWire - no power pins. Anyway times have changed. ThunderBolt shipped in nearly every single Mac since 2011 it's basically PCIe slots in a cable. Any Mac notebook or iMac with a ThunderBolt port had, for all intents and purposes, become like a Mac Pro tower with PCIe slots - but you just plug the cable in. Class compliant USB audio isn't going away anytime soon. I wouldn't worry about that. But there will be a legitimate reason CoreAudio FireWire support hit the chopping block. No new audio interfaces are made with it, and haven't been for years, and many device makers dropped support many years ago. Look at a Digidesign 003 for example. Useless hardware due to computer updates of whatever kind have been a fact of life for many years sadly. You might have the best Nubus soundcard ever made for the Mac, but you cannot use it in a PCI Mac. But that's hardware. What about updating to OS X on your Beige G3? Sorry, you lose the A/V Inputs and the internal floppy drive. Do we have to like it? No. But many musicians will keep an audio production computer offline and locked on a stable OS and software version for many years. We're used to having to do that. Why did Apple do it? I don't know. But there will be a reason other than spite. They dropped 64 bit support after Mojave because (with the benefit of hindsight) they were ripping the band-aid off early: Apple Silicon doesn't have the hardware to run X86 (32bit Intel) code, even through Rosetta translation. By eliminating 32bit support, they saved stacks of space in the chips they eventually made and shipped for efficiency, performance. Intel tried this 20 years ago with their own 64bit Itanium processors and it flopped, everyone went with AMD's 64bit chips which could run 32 bit code, and that is now the standard used with Intel chips to this day - AMD's backwards compatible implementation of 64 bit support. Anyway - maybe CoreAudio Firewire support was a massive security hole they couldn't be bothered to fix. Maybe the firewire controller chips in the world are no longer being manufactured. They certainly stopped selling their FW to TB adaptor. This happened to us years ago, when working in a music store I built music production PCs. Texas Instruments FireWire chips were the best, after awhile we could only get them on Adaptec cards, then Adaptec couldn't get the chips and switched to VIA and the performance tanked. We then stopped building music PCs and only did Macs at the time. History marches on. This in only one data point. Keep some old computers to run old hardware if you want, or gift the system to a muso starting out and upgrade.

[@stevenleonmusic]

I get the frustration but this does happen; does anyone remember serial ports, parallel ports, PS/2 ports or VGA ports? Millions of printers, mice, monitors and other peripherals became obsolete. People should have been transitioning the moment they heard Firewire was being phased out instead of buying adapters and converters. This probably affects big studios like you more than anyone but really only if you're trying to expand and need to buy new hardware. Audio tech honestly hit its peak in the mid 2000's, video tech is just now reaching that point. Most new stuff is more gimmick that necessity; people aren't going around insisting on listening to super high-res audio files and even a modest laptop can tackle a relatively large project with minimal lag. So unless your hardware breaks or you're expanding, you could always just... not upgrade. Keep your device off the network to mitigate security risks and enjoy it for what it is.

[@valdir7426]

lol I still can buy adapters for those things and they will work with my 2023 computer (providing there's a driver for it). I don't want to transition from my 1000$ interface that works perfectly; do you hear yourself?

[@stevenleonmusic]

@@valdir7426 "Providing there's a driver for it"-do you hear *yourself* because you literally just explained the situation with Firewire and proved your own point wrong. If you want to keep using your $1000 interface then go for it; you don't necessarily need the latest OS or Internet connectivity to keep making music. If you want your recording station to also be connected, secured and have the latest updates, you probably need a new interface. You've had over a decade to figure out how to make back and re-invest that $1000 into a new device that uses a different standard. This whole "slippery slope" argument is a bit bogus because this issue is pretty specific to Apple and Firewire. Apple just cares about money; if the demand for legacy driver compatibility is high enough you'll likely see it come back but I suspect it just isn't because enough people decided to phase out their devices that relied on a cable standard with an official EOL.

[@monteallums7175]

I got lucky. I use a cMP with Opencore running Monterey. Previously Mojave. My interface is a Universal Audio Apollo 16 QUAD Firewire Audio Interface. Used it for years and it has performed flawlessly. But an app I needed to use only worked with Monterey so I had to upgrade. This Apollo has a slot that allows a Thunderbolt Card. But I had to install a Thunderbolt PCIe card. The entire process of upgrading was an adventure. But, everything is working great and the Thunderbolt performance is super fast and has breathed new life in my old Cheese Grater. I love Apple but as a user since 1985 they are notorious for abandoning architecture. Thank you OCLP! LOL, it's like they are all in on a grand conspiracy to force us to buy new stuff.