WILL POLICE enforce Council drone Policy?

Hey everyone! Moving on to the next topic within our drone Q&A with Mike Paterson of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, we look at local council drone policy and ask what role if any police have in enforcing this. Let us know your thoughts in the comments on an important topic!
With thanks to the National Police Chiefs’ Council team and Mike Paterson for coming along to answer the questions. We will be holding similar Q&As again soon, so ask your questions in the comments!
For more information on the legislation discussed more widely in this Q&A:
www.legislatio...
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[@uptowndisco2]

a bit like the dog poop wardens then 🤣, but poop is worse than a little drone

[@Geeksvana]

Are you suggesting that drone use is a low level issue? How dare you. oh wait…

[@grumblewoof4721]

I live in an urban area in a shire to the west of London with some open space, many fields, woods and parks etc.. but the local council has not updated information to handle the rise in hobby drones like sub 250gram. Their advice seems to focus on commercial film making drones and licencing. For example, this is their official position: "We currently have one open space in the borough where model aircraft or drones may be flown. This is at XXXXXXX, XXXXXX. To fly model aircraft or drones here, you need to get our permission before the flight. [Request permission] We only grant permission where it can be shown that all legal and environmental requirements for safe flight can be followed. You need to supply us with a risk assessment and method statement. This must include: details of the proposed site arrangements to make sure of public safety evidence of appropriate insurance cover" There official open space is one rugby pitch that you have to book at £85 per hour and only when there is no Rugby practice or matches. This is a blanket ban across the whole council run borough. I asked them if they have ever granted permission and they said, to their knowledge, no.

[@Geeksvana]

Unless there is a bylaw or PSPO in place, (and even then it needs carefully checking to see if valid), you do not need their permission to carry out lawful activity in public. Councils often have policies in place to deal with commercial drone flight only. This is because someone flying under an Operational Authorisation from the CAA is requited by them to actively gain take off permission. However, flights in the open category, especially recreational, do not need to do this. Even the drone code only states check locally for signs. It is near impossible, mainly for insurance reasons, to get any written permission from a council. You can walk your dog in their parks but try getting them to put it in writing.

[@grumblewoof4721]

@@Geeksvana Thanks for the tips. So I checked for PSPO and I could only find one that related to drinking in a specific town centre area. Nothing about drones. The Grey Arrows Drone Club also did a FOI request in March this year specifically about bylaws or other advisories that related to drones and the response was ..."no, we don't have any drone specific bylaws" and nothing other than the blanket nonsense on their council website. So, from what I can tell, I can fly my drone (sub 250gram) anywhere in the borough and there is nothing "they" can do about it apart from whinge. Obviously that does not include Airports, helipads, prisons or places deemed sensitive to national security as per your recent videos that were very helpful, thank you. Recreational drone flyers should check with their local rules, bylaws and PSPO's before flying.

[@Geeksvana]

@@grumblewoof4721 Perfect! Enjoy in confidence!!

[@gilbert7794]

Council has no powers over airspace that’s the CAA job

[@Geeksvana]

Absolutely, but they do have rights over the activity on their land... that's the topic here.

[@aytw661]

@@Geeksvanahehe what if we land using our hand without touching the ground?

[@MarkBowenPiano]

@@aytw661 It's your body that matters. If you are standing on their land then that's when this comes into use. Doesn't matter what you launch it from 🙂

[@aanubis5874]

Why does it have to be so difficult? We NEED clear guidelines that can be brought out and shown to the offended party as there always is one or five. They can look it up using QR code or just a page and understand in Non-Gibberish speak that what we do as a hobby or for business isn't a hate crime or malicious in any way. I believe you did something similar previously. 🙂 A lot of the time now, flying is difficult and tiring as so many people approach to see what you are doing. I have been in a field with not a person or dog in sight, the instant I power up drone and take off, up into the air and suddenly people sprout from the ground with their dogs and approach me. I upset their dog with my drone, please leave etc. etc. It's monotonous and becoming less and less fun with all the BS that goes with it. Tried today and it was just one drama after another in the middle of nowhere or so I thought. Rant over. 🤐🤐🤐🤔

[@dr_dr]

Surely, the simple answer is that if it isn't a national law, by-law or court order, then the Police cannot be involved without straying into Section 26 offences themselves.

[@ThatGoth]

The problem is there are no statutes or bylaws that prevent you taking off or landing on public land and any bylaw that was created would be voided by the laws we already have in place (hence there isn't a single bylaw banning you taking off or landing from/on public land).

[@Geeksvana]

Absolutely! I also have a problem with local authorities believing they have as much rights over their public land as a standard landowner. Looking at the direction of council policies overall, it seems they are getting the message though.

[@conorstewart2214]

@@Geeksvana that is the problem with a lot of these organisations, they forget their place, they serve us. It is not their land, it is public land. It is similar with the national trust and historic environment Scotland, their job is to look after these monuments for the public, yet they seem to forget that by making up all their rules and acting like they own it.

[@MarkBowenPiano]

@@conorstewart2214 Whilst I agree that it is 'public' land it is still land which is governed by them and so a lot of the time as they're trying to do the best for everyone it's sometimes easier for them to just say no to keep everyone happy. That's obviously not the best solution to take but a lot of the time the easiest and cheapest solution for them.

[@Garry-oi7cg]

Hi Sean Barnsley South Yorkshire seems to have policy where you need permission. In fact appears you need to jump through hoops. Although there are drone shots and videos shown on social media platforms . I find this most confusing because you can either take off and land from public or you can’t. How does a recreational drone flyer make that decision with such uncertainty. 🙆 Once again thanks for your post. 👍

[@davidporter9131]

Bearing in mind this is a council 'policy' and therefore not law. It would be illegal for the police to act. They would face masive legal repercussions.

[@jameslister412]

Geeksvana please can you do a video showing how to get orthorisation to fly in uk FRZs, Specifically Thirsk where I live is within topcliffe FRZ. Do you already have a video on this?

[@sptvids]

Wouldn't the council have to put up signs in areas which they want to restrict?

[@6r4metroman]

I like these quick fire Q & A's 🙂

[@Geeksvana]

Thanks! I think it works better rather than hour long rambles... not that I ramble... OK, I ramble 😂

[@edcbabc]

I can't help feeling it is not as simple as he implies. If someone made a complaint and an officer did arrive quickly (unlikely, but may be in the local area), the officer may not have actual power to stop the takeoff and flying if CAA rules are being followed as it is a civil matter, but in the interests of 'keeping the peace' may ask the flyer to stop. If the flyer doesn't, then I inagine s/he might find him/herself in trouble being in breach of the some oublic order offence.

[@brianbracherphotography]

Breaches of byelaws are prosecuted in a magistrates' court or Justice of the Peace Courts in Scotland. The punishment is a fine. Most bylaws can be enforced by police though they rarely unless it’s a way of dealing with a wider community problem - such a groups causing problems in parks. Generally it is only local community officers that are even aware of what local bye laws exist. This just won’t be something that they will be interested in unless some people are making a nuisance of themselves.

[@Geeksvana]

I have just given the same answer to another comment. I prefer your wording though 😂.

[@johnburns5783]

I always thought that breaking some council byelaw was a civil matter ? ( happy to admit I could be wrong) 😉

[@Geeksvana]

Hey John! This focuses in terms of enforcement, so if police would get involved. We have a future video in the edit looking at exactly that. It is both a simple and complex area… (always fun).

[@johnburns5783]

@Geeksvana yep we refer to our local lot as the clowncil 🤣🤣🤣

[@mikescuttportsmouthuk678]

@geeksvana Thanks for these short Q&A sessions Sean, I find them very informative. I sent an email to my local district council a couple of years ago asking for permission to take off and land from two local parks. I received a reply giving me permission to fly from all parks in the district council area, which is quite a number. It seems that there is no common policy across councils.

[@Geeksvana]

@mikescuttportsmouthuk678 thanks for the kind feedback! Yes, the policy varies wildly from council to council.

[@stevehaynes2857]

I am a retired police officer. We used local bylaws to prosecute persons attaching signs to roadside furniture (lamp standards etc.). This was presented to a magistrates court. The offender(s) received a fine.

[@StitchSurveying]

Im in Bristol which has a bylaw that prohibits drone flying in parks and open spaces. Although they have allocated 4 parks that can be flown in. We have a FPV flyer that flys in a park next to our house most days. (this park is not one of the dedicated areas). It extremely loud and annoying and at times scaring the horses in the field next door - I even had a Zoom meeting where one of my colleagues thought there was a swarm of bees in my office. Anyway I called 101 and the local police station called me back a day later. I advised them of the bylaw breach and nuisance. Their response was that ultimatly this is too low of a priority to deal with and they advised that I approach the gentleman myself or speak to the council to deal with. They advised against calling 999 and said if I called 101 again it can take up to 4-5 hours for the incident to be logged to the local police force - so a bit useless as he will most likely have left by then. So as a community it doesn't seem like we can use the police to help enforce this. He is also flying without a spotter - when I spoke to the local police officer about this I don't think she had a clue what I was talking about. I gave up at this point!

[@grumblewoof4721]

You could try... buying a drone and flying it yourself and then approach the nuisance flyer in the park (as a fellow flying hobbyist), engage with him and explain that it maybe a nuisance to local residents and scares the horses. If he doesn't agree or responds in a hostile way, then you can chase his fpy drone with yours until they both crash... could be a lot of fun.

[@bigmanmountainbiker5322]

great stuff coming out on channel recently :D thank you for that. I just watched this video, and was hoping that there will be answer to my question I originally asked around 4 months ago when you called everyone to put they questions to NPCC... my original question was: ''Hi, I would like to know how police would deal with the situation where if say I flying in a public place in town, sticking to the all rules regarding drones, but not the one local council trying enforce- the byelaw which prohibiting a flying a drone... would police try to enforce that byelaw? As far as my understanding is, that byelaw cannot be made where alternative legislative measures already exist that could be used to address the problem. And there is an air navigation order just for that. Do you agree that byelaw like that are not enforceable as they shouldn't be made in first place?'' I don't think I heard an answer to my question. on other hand, you yourself stated ( see video from 3:08min), and Mr Paterson sort of agreed that if there is a byelaw or PSPO (I'm more interested in byelaw's) in place police WILL HAVE TO INTERVENE. they won't intervene if question is around council's policies... can you clarify if that is correct?

[@Geeksvana]

It is a grey area for sure! Bylaws are civil so should not be a police matter. However, that could turn into an enforcement issue if the person is refusing consistently to adhere to the bylaws etc. We have a detailed video coming on this, including input from a barrister. I chose to only lightly approach the issue with police in this video, because there is so much that is out of their hands. I do not see how a council should or could be able to stop legal acitivity in a public place. But many of them will argue that point. Part of the problem is of course that non of this had been tested in court. I don't want to see anyone go through that of course. But it leaves things a little open. I personally interpret that council policy etc is almost worthless to anyone flying a drone in the open category.

[@bigmanmountainbiker5322]

@@Geeksvana I don't want to test it too... :D that's why I hoping to get answer from someone else... :D in situation like that, if some council enforcement employee would approach me, I would't even talk to him, and after landing my drone I would just to walk away without giving any details about me, but my concern is what should I do if indeed police officer approaching me and specifically stating that he is there because I'm braking the bylaw... I'm afraid that would be the time then someone (and that means me :D ) will test it in court... p.s. I'm apologize for my bad English as it is not my native language, I hope it's good enough to understand the point I'm making pss.: the correct spelling is "byelaws"... ;D

[@Geeksvana]

@bigmanmountainbiker5322 your English is excellent!! I think part of the problem is that a lot is down to how the officer reacts to the situation. So even if we could get a firm theoretical answer, it wouldn't help in real terms. Especially as officers are trained to take control of any situation.

[@daz1969]

Unfortunately I have zero respect for councils these days especially the way they rake in a fortune from motorists. Most of them make up drone rules as they go along and often think they own the airspace too. If drone assist says it’s good to fly then often enough it’s good to fly. Fly safely and without fear unless an angry giant seagull starts chasing your drone.

[@davekelly8168]

Sports mode it is… 😅

[@johncarold]

Thanks Sean

[@elboy6715]

Bylaws apply to over 250g. They were put in place because model aircraft heavier than 250g were landing on people

[@conorstewart2214]

That all sounds very vague without anything to back it up. Where were these bylaws put in place and where were people landing drones on people?

[@flynn4838]

POLICY IS NOT LAW

[@user-el2bi6bh1l]

The recent FOI request to Councils show that very few of them have bylaws to prohibit drones, some even tried to use draft bylaws which is not legal, others have tried to use gobbledegook to try and evade the real answer. Bear in mind only a few have actual legal bylaws, and for any new ones to be implements the same as Public Space Protection orders, they have to go through public consultation and if approved have to be reviews after 3 years. Drone users should look out for any such applications and make sure any objections and as many as possible are made against the implementation of such legislation. In the past there has been very little or selective consultation permitted. Do make use of the councils FOI on Drones database, a lot of time and effort has be taken to compile it. Even then read each response carefully as there’s deliberate evasion from proper replies in some cases.

[@glennclayton9900]

Effin councils are the bane of this country