Wisdom Through the Imaginal: IFS Insights with Seth Allison Part 3

John Vervaeke and Seth Allison revisit the transformative realm of Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy, building on their enriching dialogues from previous sessions. They unpack the intricate dynamics between the "self" and its various "parts," shedding light on how these elements can be harmonized for deep self-reflection and healing. The dialogue includes valuable insights and clarifications from Richard Schwartz, the creator of IFS, reinforcing the framework's compatibility with traditional psychological methods and its efficacy for safely navigating the inner self. The conversation evolves to explore the role of IFS in addressing the existential questions posed by the modern meaning crisis, highlighting its significance in cultivating wisdom and integrating the psychological with the spiritual. This episode stands as a testament to the synergy between cognitive science and philosophical inquiry, inviting listeners on a journey toward enlightenment, emotional resilience, and a richer engagement with their internal landscape.
Seth Allison is a renowned psychotherapist specializing in internal family systems (IFS) and its integration with traditional psychotherapy. With years of clinical practice, Seth brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to the conversation, offering valuable insights into the therapeutic journey.
Glossary of Terms
IFS (Internal Family Systems): A psychotherapeutic model that identifies and interacts with various sub-personalities or parts within each person's mental system.
Sapiential - relating to wisdom
John Vervaeke:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
Seth Allison:
Website: Grow Collective - www.growcollective.com/
LinkedIn: / seth-allison-13abb811b
Wise Attachment Workshop - Sunday, April 14th - 11:00a EDT
The Art of Parts Work (IFS) Workshop - Sunday, April 28th - 11:00a EDT
Event Calendar - awakentomeaning.com/join-prac...
Related Resources
Join our new Patreon
/ johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation - vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning - awakentomeaning.com/
The Others Within Us: Internal Family Systems, Porous Mind, and Spirit Possession - Robert Falconer
www.amazon.com/Others-Within-...
John Vervaeke on Mystical Experience and the Pursuit of Wisdom - • John Vervaeke on Mysti...
Quotes
"We have a moral obligation to ask what is a proper framework to bring to bear upon these experiences so that people can metabolize them and realize them as the cultivation of virtue and wisdom, and not spin them off into narcissism or inflation and go down rabbit holes of their own personal magical metaphysics." - Seth Allison (Quoting John Vervaeke) [00:37:16]
"It is more important, and the integration is in both of those dimensions. How well does it integrate with many domains broadly and deeply in your life? How well does it transform many levels, broadly and deeply, of the psyche? That's the integration. Our culture gives us precious little on both of those, and even more importantly, not only both of them, but how they are properly coordinated and speak to each other in a self-correcting fashion." - John Vervaeke [00:32:06]
Chapters
[00:00:00] - Introduction and Background on IFS
[00:01:00] - Corrections and Insights from Richard Schwartz
[00:06:00] - Deep Dive into IFS Concepts
[00:14:45] - Addressing the Modern Meaning Crisis
[00:18:00] - Spiritual Rediscovery and Transformation
[00:40:00] - IFS Practice Session
[01:14:00] - Reflecting on the Session's Impact
[01:33:10] - Closing Reflections and Workshop Announcement

[@austintaylor55]

Thank you John and Seth. Beautiful. Looking forward to #4

[@kronk2294]

😂My "yeah, yeah" guy heard Dr. Vervaeke say "I feel a familiar presence" and immediately chimed in with a "yeah, yeah Dr. Vervaeke's gonna say something about how profound his experience is". Imagine my surprise when he said the presence was his own "yeah, yeah" guy. Really enjoyed this!

[@timothywalsh6410]

IFS therapy: awkward, yet playful and awesome! I am reminded of doing this sort of thing with my psychotherapist a few years ago and noticing how ridiculous, absurd, and contemptuous it seemed in its various aspects. BUT I was game to seriously play along and use my imagination. The result was fascinating and insightful and curious and wonderful. And still I chuckle and shrug at the two seemingly contrary descriptions I give it - this especially comes across watching it here as an observer on KZbin. Thanks John for putting yourself out there for all our sakes despite your reservations. You are very open and giving of yourself. Thank you Seth for giving your thoughtful guidance. Hugs all 'round.

[@PetrosSyrak]

Thank you for your work, John. It’s making a real difference.

[@mcnallyaar]

Wow. Tears during this one. I've been doing parts work on my own and am glad to know I'm doing it right. I have had so much success with this practice.

[@Squashmalio]

All of the talks between these 2 are amazing and more meaningful than I can express. I find it hard not to be jealous as a viewer though, it is not easy to come by opportunities to meet or talk to people who are aware of these changes that are occurring and who want to play a role in them, and as things ramp up it can feel very isolating to watch these things happen without being able to participate.

[@MaidenMonster]

After watching this whole dialogue with Seth from the first episode several times through, I decided this therapy was right for me. After several sessions I experienced something like an awakening to a whole new way of being. It made everything click that I have been taking in cognitively about the meaning crisis and relevance realization. The participatory knowing that happens in this therapy is world changing. It makes it all make sense on a participatory level. Now the brain and the being are one. I get it. It’s amazing! A sincere and deep thanks for this dialog.

[@ben-sanford]

Thank you John, and thank you both for sharing this wonderful and vulnerable journey. 🙏

[@HenockTesfaye]

Thank you for putting yourself into this. An actual IFS session. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[@dianehillier2336]

I also want to thank you two pioneers for taking this journey. I too am in the hallway.

[@TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

This is rich! I'd love to hear you two talk about the effects of believing in a "just world". I think that's part of the neurosis of adhering to a lot of misguided unexamined ideals we can inherit from any tradition we don't critically confront piece by piece and person by person we (over) identify ourselves with and associate with our meaningful (imaginal or non-imaginal) free time. Metanoia means going beyond not only our own ignorance, but those of others, and I wonder if these guys could muse on why some people suffer and others prosper for seemingly arbitrary reasons and if that can lead to parasitic processing, suffering, or loss of agency. Very good stuff and can't wait for more! :)

[@fukkyouthatswhy]

hey john, prathamesh here, 3-4 years ago your meaning crisis series got my attention, i have commented before updating my journey as we go, last time i posted here i was getting into nondual philosophy, vedanta and kashmiri shaivism, (after finishing my masters in cognitive science) although kashimiri shaivism really took me far, infact i even grew dreadlocks, over the course of 4 years, and as of today i have finished studying shaivism and the embodied forms the concepts and art from the philosophy attempts to create, i.e the soteriology, hence i have shaved my head.during this journey i also created my own recursive model of realization that specifically focuses on the multiplicity/ambiguity of language, to create forms, that can keep us in a good place when it comes to facing the burdens of the world and everyday life (salvation? hehehe). (although it will need a lot more polishing), i am using cooking to access the forms of "refining" something and it shall be put to use when it comes to polishing the models. just wanted to let you know, the seed you planted years ago has finally sprouted into a tiny little plant, and now it shall grow into a tree that being said, in classic indian fashion i would like to end it with "all knowledge, is an illusion" good luck with your projects good sir, thanks for doing what you do! *edit* OH since the conversation wound up towards,ways pathways and practices shaivism has 4 paths anavupaya - the path of no path, we just find the sacred, only shiva knows the secrets of this one anupaya - the lowest path, it involves ritual, practive, chanting, meditation, yoga and so forth shaktopaya - the path of knowledge and abstractions shambhavupay - the highest path, he path of will/desire fusion of these two wordss (the sanskrit word is Iccha)

[@randybennett2143]

We are, in a sense, already complete in our almost-ness. What is the imaginal, but the almost real? And we are intrinsically imaginal beings. Having grown up subconsciously perceiving television as the "real world out there", then passing through the generation of "reality tv", and then experiencing the rampant narcissism of early social media... I find that only in the past year have I noticed a modal shift in how I perceive and relate to the "people on the screen". This is the journey from viewing characters to be judged for my entertainment who speak ideas that I merely play with inside my mind to... empathizing with human beings, and applying what they say to my own life, then experimenting with embodiment of those ideas, then reflecting/refracting them back out into the world. Our culture up until recently has created egotistical zombies who see one another as egotistical zombies. We are breaking that spell. We are Alive.

[@RobinTurner]

Thanks for another great dialogue!I think a lot of us identified strongly with the discussion of liminality and the Silk Road there. I was asked by a friend to describe myself in one word and it was "between" (if Buckminster Fuller can be a verb, I can be a preposition 😂). Even those of us who retain (or have stumbled into) an official religion often find ourselves on the edge, drawn by the parallels we see in other belief systems and trying to fit it all into some kind of meta-belief that is at least somewhat compatible with science.

[@mindovermatter3328]

15 mins: ' a degradation of our imaginal faculties....an atrophy of our spiritual musculature..' Wow...what a way to sum up so much of our times and our plight

[@VigiliusHaufniensis]

John is such a salt of the earth, really didn't expect that somebody could kindle interest in these things in me but here i am, love this channel

[@martintore38]

This was really profound and very humanizing John! I appreciate you and the parts of you. Thank you for making IFS more accessible. I also feel that Seth's combination of attachment theory and IFS is really beautiful and makes so much sense. These conversations are helping to develop IFS. Seth's voice is needed. Thank you both.

[@cam103]

John, as a follower of your work, it is incredible (and incredibly helpful) to watch you open up publicly to the more therapeutic side. Thank you both for this wonderful series. As an aspiring therapist, I am getting so much out of it. For anyone who could direct me, what are some sources on the modern Jungian concept of Ally Work (books, podcasts, thinkers)? The brief mentions of it have been enticing to say the least!

[@KalebPeters99]

This was incredible, John. Thank you so much for sharing 🙏 One note: it seemed like there was some kind of audio sync issue, which led to it sounding like John was constantly cutting off Seth. I was able to mentally auto-correct it enough to continue, but it was definitely occasionally distracting 😅

[@TheCoyotemonster]

Very powerful episode. It brought up strong feelings related to my own work with my inner meanie. I came to appreciate this part of myself for its attempt at protecting me. Once accepted, my inner meanie has become much nicer. I thought the work was done, but I see so much more potential now. Thank you so much for your openness. Powerfully brave. Bravo!

[@Wrath669]

Witnessing the therapy here was beautiful. The insight to another person opening themselves up into 'them-selves' is so impactful by the virtue of it showing a concept some would feel personally relatable yet trepidation to discuss with others for fear of seeming like it purely comes from a state of mental damaged, when really this is normal in so many people. Thank you.

[@polymathpark]

Seth mentioned a vervaeke dictionary of terms. Could you provide this, in some form? It would be immensely helpful.

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

The third one so fast 🎉🎉❤❤ can't wait to see it, thank you both from the bottom of my heart ❤ your conversations were beyond amazing and helpful ❤❤

[@zmasken]

Thank you for your openness, honesty and thanks for sharing this.

[@mikegarrigan5182]

Been following John, since the “awakening from the meaning crisis” came out and have always enjoyed his work. It’s my view that John’s path towards a religion that’s not a religion is taking him back to his Christian roots. Hope he finds comfort there.

[@twerkin4rent263]

This was moving. At one point, I just heard the hymn softly and tenderly playing in the background. “Come home, come home, ye who are weary come home.” “Home” can be whatever you imagine not just in the Christianity sense as discussed today. I love seeing your journey!

[@eqapo]

John is the psychedelic agent to our collective psyche, and we haven't even peaked!

[@mmarrotte101]

I’ve been interested in IFS for a while now, and to experience the crossover here with you John is honestly incredible. Your openness to undergoing this practice and sharing it with us creates profound ripples beyond anything you could imagine. Thank you to both of you for this work.

[@DavidHall-ej4ql]

🤔

[@mmarrotte101]

@@DavidHall-ej4ql curious about something?

[@TimCCambridge]

👍👍Really Great! A sapiential satsung! Thanks! This IFS is so familiar to my years of practice. I blew up a balloon for my youngest son, while the elder son laughed... pin in hand...

[@scotti23q81]

this was great to watch. authentic and brilliant. For the love of wisdom!

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Beautiful to witness this, thank you so much for sharing. I found myself reflecting on times when I have done very similar work, of my own 'making' I think, as it wasn't a particular 'system', but it felt like building a natural relationship with parts of me that were somewhat dormant, pushed away, ignored, supressed, and misunderstood importantly... and the surprising dialogue that came about - I felt a large sense of relief after making the connection and letting the family part have a space to reconnect and start to integrate. For me its been extremely beneficial to work this way, and the ripeness, or readiness for this with you John, at the time of recording time, as Seth said, was very apparent. The natural smile that came about from you during and after John, brought a tear to my eye tbh.

[@missh1774]

Nice one 38:40 "scientific gaze, to afford the flourishing of the practice". Another wonderful interactive discussion. Thank you for the writing prompts.

[@mcnallyaar]

Yes, Coleridge made a distinction between the Fancy and the Imagination, but he *also* made a distinction between the Primary and Secondary Imagination.

[@TheodolosQ]

Already been loving this series but man this episode is brilliant. Thank you both for this.

[@nathanchasse8189]

This was beautiful. Thank you both so much ❤

[@mubeensyed9660]

John,Big Admirer of your work sir,Hope i too get to be a part of your mission someday. 💕 From India.

[@dianagoddard6456]

John you are both brilliant and honest. The statue of Hermes in my garden facilities My Vedanta, by Zen and a practicing as a non orthodox Catholic ….and a non dual experiebev

[@MidwestBen101]

Is there an epsoide where John talks about Hermes and him meeting him etc? That really intrests me a lot

[@thomasf.webber4933]

TL;DR - The meaning crisis needs IFS applied to culture, with creativity in expanding it beyond a modality and into a way to think/dialogue. I'm still really curious how "sacred" will fit in with the meaning-crisis solution. I resonate with that conclusion, but it still feels unclear how to manifest. When I've explored galvanizing feelings, I feel it most when I've taken time to align myself to diversely meaningful or moral objectives. I wonder how that conversation can be explored. Perhaps, a method similar to the "parts dialogue" in IFS could restore trust and access more of the wounds that need tending/healing could be applied to a small group trying to represent a portion of culture on a whole. It would be really fun to get something facilitated and participated people who have internal-alignment, because I think they would hold space for the challenges such a conversation would excavate. Transforming those "enemies who have tension" into "allies who have insight" is a huge part of the process. Building trust is possible, but it takes compassion and curiousity. Once we do that, we can find creative solutions to complex challenges in ways that aren't as reactive. How much of the issues we see in the meta-crisis stem from reactive parts? P.S. I'd love to help manifest this!

[@sennasdrive]

this was so lovely and helpful, my goodness. extremely brave and powerful stuff, thank you 🙏🏾 would love to hear your thoughts on radical constructivist/system theorist niklas luhmann’s ideas on autopoietic social systems and functional differentiation one day, much love to you both.

[@projectmalus]

"someone's knocking at the door, someone's ringing the bell; do me a favor, open the door...and let him in, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah" Paul McCartney and Wings

[@projectmalus]

Cool stuff. After awhile it seems that a library of responses as a fractal trigger gate (looking back at it after entering while paying respects) with different ornamentation (appearance) as the different vulnerabilities triggered the same way, is possible. Vulnerabilities then as a stained glass window with light shining thru the different colors. Edit: the shaping possible in the responses to the trigger, reaction as allowing then allows the light as olfactory, which seems brain back to front difference allowance as well as side to side constraints in the yeah yeah. Atlantis here I come!

[@LozzyLoco]

Where can i do on depth study in the quote "You know absolutely nothing about modern civilization unless you first admit tha tit is a universal conspiricy against the intirior life" .... bernardo? Books? Thanks❤

[@paradisecostarica4986]

Mmmm I knew it.. but he say it to me and he show me how is that I feel... I saw a boby position I will never be in... This is the first time I do something like this... This was quite powerful...

[@wvshack]

Please link Part 1 and Part 2 in the description. Thank you.

[@johnvervaeke]

Will do.

[@mattgumbley1317]

That was brave thanks

[@breaking.protocol]

Awesome

[@colorfulbookmark]

The attribution to certain exeperiences in mental difficulties are sometimes rejected as its own at the moment of apply, later when some people see it, it is re-presented otherwise and aspectuality of each person's apply, repeating from the time point is later reinterpretive "reinterpretive" which is actually desire to achieve sabotage to other people. When people who can really help the victimized man are talking friendly mode to him, otherwise is also ongoing and it is apparently similarly that "later when some people see it" and fall into pitfall to strengthen the applies before. The IFS's wisdom is also distracted by this ongoing, and emotional internal is also calibrated by close people and when victimized man didn't tell it, it is transformed as otherwise and timeness is transformed as "timed out err" and sensitivity to appreciate "err" not "error" is care for the user of the error, but later "reinterpretive" and remaining emotion is rage, but not rageous then what happens?

[@colorfulbookmark]

I am not telling this about the pros in this video. The pros in this video are great people and I am not friend of them, but I know these pros are great people ^^ (If I am not mentioning this, "otherwise" again happens...)

[@projectmalus]

Nice framing! If err + error + recognition = evolution, perhaps rage (unplaced) + rageos (also unplaced) = juvenile state. The rage is unplaced as unchecked, like grass is self suffocating with lots of energy and many forms, which is kept juvenile by mowing which spurs its growth on, otherwise it would fall apart. Evolution of grass is the meadow, which moves around in a dance with trees.

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@projectmalus I am always putting extra attention to my replies put on the video created by people like Dr.Vervaeke. He and his fellows are great people rescue in their mind, and err or error are carefully pondered up, so I delete my replies and reposted. Juvenile is yet for me because I am not turned out 50 of age, however, speaking opinions about things that required cognitive effort makes my body refreshing. Juvenile might be followed by refreshed body, I guess from your speaking ^^

[@colorfulbookmark]

Please notice that my replies again are same meanings, but expression refinement ^^

[@projectmalus]

@@colorfulbookmark Perhaps "juvenile is yet for me" is at the heart of it, if humans have a proportion of power that is subdivided amongst the human. What is the human? Cats,dogs, buildings, people, home, mammals as culture, with human power in the allowing and asserting (sequestering) of this material. Person as self moving as wave into two areas, the non-human and the human. The non-human is the misaligned symbiosis extended over time (initial benefit lost thru lingering, as collective human action), thru actual physical transference of the medium of exchange...known as eating it. The power of objectified self when the person (self) slides to the non-human and the power of that, which was originally good. A drug that fades and needs renewing. The power of objectified self when the person (self) slides to the human which includes cats etc because mammals are an object, with proportioned power within that. Self as wave on an ocean by "itself" as "moving" being, while wave of self and wave of human (or non-human) come together as standing wave or slightly prominent wave that collapses. This is the improper symbiosis, extended past its initial leap into the good, true and beautiful, which encourages the juvenile after adolescence.

[@TimeGhost7]

Well done

[@76Terrell]

I wonder if that double bind imagery is something like the 'Yeah Yeah Yeah guy' feeling like he's on the opposite side of a mobius strip, like a Divine Double supporting the unconscious half of the self

[@projectmalus]

little alien head emerging from the bigger alien jaws? First Peoples climbing out of a clam shell? Flying a kite in a lightening storm like Franklinstein? Bring down the fire!

[@820monster]

John, when you're doing the session. What are you hearing? I read the self therapy IFS book and tried working through the activities. And this is where I got stuck. I don't understand when I ask the parts questions what I'm listening for. I kept thinking it would be a voice like a person talking back, but I never had anything like this.I guess that my question. How do parts respond to your questions? Speech, body sensations?

[@martintore38]

Some people have a harder time hearing the part but can sense the energy or emotions of it. Sometimes you'll start to see images or memories in your head from the part. If it's not clear enough so that you can understand it, you may need to spend longer time with it in Self being curious and compassionate with it. You can even ask it to communicate more clearly so you can get to know it. Sounds strange but it works!

[@Andrew.baltazar]

Would you be able to describe some more of the phenomology of the session? I dont understand how you can hear your parts so clearly, maybe im looking in the wrong place...

[@LateBoomer-sl1dk]

It's the first thought that pops into your head. There always is one. Sometimes it'll be song title or a movie reference.

[@dianagoddard6456]

How is ifs different from subpersonalities by Rowan and part objects Klein etc

[@evo1ov3]

Well this was at the top of my list for the YT algorithm. Which is funny! Because FB showed me a friend's meme. Which was a joke about that guy's face melting off in Raiders of the Lost Ark! Which was a joke about "I'll stop the world and melt with you." 🤣🤣🤣 oh my god. In other news! I saw a rainbow yesterday! And I'm like..... Oh shit! So that's how that works! 🤯 WHOOOOOA

[@Will2Wisdom]

Discover that people have gifts that science and psychology have not caught up to.

[@Squashmalio]

I feel like the "yeah yeah yeah" guy can't just quit his job. It is an important job of constraining the other parts. The problem is that he was over-constraining when John was trying to access some other areas, and that was dealt with in their communication, and from here on out if their relationship is repaired they can probably work out a more fruitful way of working together, but if he tries to quit he's just going to end up being called back to that same job when the need arises(this is why IFS isn't super dangerous imo, if it was possible to just tell him to quit like that and it'd be permanent, IFS would be very capable of destroying your psyche).

[@dianagoddard6456]

Is a combination of these plus Jung , complexes and the transjective , archetypes

[@dianehillier2336]

What do you think of women’s intuition?

[@MusicMissionary]

I really identify with living in the hall. Do I ever.

[@dospook]

I wish John would rearticulate "transjective" as it is different from "inter-subjective". Seems like he speaks of "spirits" as objectively-subjective aka transjective(?) As a distinction from Inter-subjective (?)

[@projectmalus]

You might find a recent video from The Meditating Philosopher helpful, John and Eric Orwoll talking of the imaginal, relationships etc. from March 1, '24.

[@Jacob011]

Transjective is between subject and object, or subject and subject. The inter-subjective is included. The object is important because of the relationship to the world.

[@colorfulbookmark]

Please consider this internal is reinterpretive: When boy B sees his neighbor put desktop PC for dispose. B asked neighbor if he can have it, neighbor kindly give it to B. B gives neighbor free coupon Pizza Pizza extra large 3 topping free, neighbor and B are happy together. Not knowing this background, if otherwise condition prevails still, when B is on the bed, he says "Pizza!", is this reinterpretive not?^^

[@ElijahLogozar]

self, self', Self, consider trinity analogies? especially non-propositionally,

[@michaelwoodley9535]

I think the facilitation by Seth and perhaps others who use this model is flawed in a serious way. Splitting a person into multiple parts doesn’t ground you in YOU. When applying IFS, it’s safer and much more meaningful to focus on roles. Roles not souls. This enables reflection on what YOU are doing to yourself.

[@ben_eighth]

What does IFS mean?

[@michaelwoodley9535]

@@ben_eighth Internal Family System.