Should We Cease To Exist? | A Philosopher Responds to Attack on Titan

[@forgottenfamily]

Never trust a thing Armin says in front of an enemy. If Armin isn't three layers deep on planning, he didn't get enough sleep last night

[@tnb4509]

Armin didn't have a plan here, dumbass. He just wants there to be peace, but has no way or plan for establishing it besides peace talks that failed miserably in ch. 139. Eren, Floch and Zeke are the ones with a plan, not Armin. He's too busy simping for Annie to come up with one.

[@modemulrich1946]

@@tnb4509 I wouldn't call nearly a century of peace a miserable failure. When compared to the peace that western Europe has enjoyed since the end of WWII (around 80 years), it's pretty amazing in that context.

[@tnb4509]

@@modemulrich1946 Well then, his plan was still a miserable failure compared to Zeke's which would've also established a century of peace. The only difference being, 80% of the outside world would still be alive, all of the eldian's children and grandchildren wouldn't die brutal, painful deaths(They're probably not even all dead and some are likely being used as slaves), titan powers would be gone and EREN would still be alive. WHY DIDN'T THAT PIECE OF SHIT LISTEN TO ZEKE? ZEKE'S PLAN IS JUST EREN'S BUT BETTER. And what's with the Europe comparison? It's not like Western Europe is going to be wiped out in twenty more years. The Eldians are still being genocided. Whether it's their generation of the next, and that's a failure on both Eren and Armin's part. I'll admit Armin did the best he could after Eren's dumb final decision that killed all his people, but he had 4 years to think of a plan that established peace with the outside world and he spent it all simping for Annie. Why does his philosophy matter as much as say, Eren or Zeke when he has no way of executing it? This is the dude who saved the world? Pathetic.

[@0fficerpimp]

@@modemulrich1946 it was a century of peace not because armin did something but because the world was so fucked by eren the nations couldn't do anything

[@modemulrich1946]

@@tnb4509 I honestly don't endorse Eren's decision to attempt the Rumbling despite him being fated to be stopped 80% of the way there. I would say that the panel showing Paradis being bombed doesn't necessarily imply that all of Paradis was destroyed. It could be that Paradis was embroiled in a war whose cause was unrelated to the Rumbling (e.g., a world war due to complex treaties à la WWI or a conflict over resources). In that case, an incomplete bombing would still have the Eldians on Paradis survive and start to rebuild whilst not having every bombed city rebuilt. Even in the real world, not all bombed cities/towns are rebuilt despite the country surviving a war. Assuming the complete genocide of the Eldians of Paradis also assumes that there would be no emigration from Paradis in the peace after the Rumbling. In this interpretation of the final panels (there's no dialogue or text), Eldians would still survive long after the bombing after the century of peace and would not necessarily be under persecution. In this light, Eren's plan would leave Eldians better off long-term than Zeke's sterilization plan since the latter would guarantee that they would die out after one or two generations whilst the former would give them a chance to keep going for as long as they successfully manage and navigate any future geopolitical realities. If feel that this might accidentally send out a troublesome message to the reader, though: if you attempt to commit genocide or an especially heinous act, you can get away with not doing it in full as long as the damage is so great that you are in the best relative position to influence the aftermath 😬😬

[@la8920]

* Levi threatens Zeke * Michael: Why does he do that? Everyone who has seen the show: 🤨

[@Whiskeychief]

Yes that and the bloody baseball this show has so much gore.

[@shiranuiprestonsaga8867]

@@Whiskeychief Laughs in Berserk and Chainsawman

[@THEMATT222]

* Levi threatens Zeke * Michael: Or is it?

[@ShawnWeeded510]

@@shiranuiprestonsaga8867 Hellsing??

[@shiranuiprestonsaga8867]

@@ShawnWeeded510 that too

[@hiphopotamus69]

“Sex without consequences for all Eldians” -Zeke Jaeger

[@Noxis_22]

That should have been the pitch, like fuck eldia if I don't have to pay life support

[@dantdmfangamingrich9802]

Free childbirth but Zeke should also make eldians immune to STDs

[@popcornfilms1]

Zeke bout to put the birth control industry out of business

[@2st486]

STDS

[@kaneaquino8295]

Next: A Titan reacts to A Philosopher reacts to Attack On Titan

[@AnInsideJoke]

Titan: *eats philosopher*

[@whathell6t]

@@AnInsideJoke But what will happen if that philosopher turns out to be Virgo Shaka, a Gold Saint: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGebd52NoM-Bitk Seriously, Virgo Shaka literally fought Titans, the 2nd Generation Greek Gods led by Cronus.

[@davidgn40]

@@AnInsideJoke woah woah, what if it's a Titan Shifter?

[@Corbald]

@@AnInsideJoke Philosopher: Convinces Titan to kill it's self, for the greater good!

[@TitansTracks]

Thanks for the video idea! 💎

[@forgivensign]

Can't wait for Michael to react to Eren's perspective on the matter and the reveals in the second part of season 4

[@lordkronos5470]

I can't wait. Lol

[@zhuoyifan5324]

NO Save yourself, ignorace is bliss

[@8ball279]

You can stop waiting, you’ve sadly seen the peak.

[@lornm1856]

It was ruined by the author at the end lol

[@ishanbajpai6940]

@@lornm1856 That is your opinion. I personally think, I need to wait on it for sometime before deciding that a decade long series with amazing heights is simply ruined by 1 or 2 chapters in the end.

[@Greysterization]

Curious why you didn't mention the scene of Sasha's father at the restaurant that quite literally lays out the flaws in what has been happening regarding Eren's and Zeke's motivations, that it has never been about how to solve the crisis, for future generation but to nurture our children and raise them in a healthy and loving environment that won't lead them down the same path endlessly

[@ryorx7839]

If only everyone could see it this way

[@bearcudlybear]

THANK YOUU everyone in these comments keep arguing over whether Eren or Zeke had the better plan when the only real ethical answer is that they're both wrong and Sasha's dad was on the money!!! The show is extremely and repeatedly explicit about the fact that the environment = outcome. Of course, this isn't 1 to 1 and there are exceptions such as Falco's character not really buying into the "don't be a devil" brainwashing despite being surrounded by everyone who does.

[@bandi642]

that would require all of eldia marley and the world to be on the same pace and teach their children ethically, something that cant happen and something that marley doesnt have on his interests(they want to use eldian titans as weapons without ethical backlash)

[@KakaOfTheRealMadrid]

the truth is that’s cute and all but at the end of the day … humans are conflict hungry by nature, we continually look for problems & solutions on top of that we have our egos at the end of the day there’s no permanent solution other than 100% human extinction

[@williamvu4324]

@@bearcudlybear Actually, I would argue even with Falco, he is an example of environment --> outcome as he came from a family that already had a restorationist (i.e. his uncle). However, since the restorationists got caught, the rest of his family was in danger, and he was forced to become a warrior with his brother because if they didn't, they would be forced to go to Paradis and become titans or be killed. He was then exposed to the conversation between Eren and Reiner, both men he had grown attachments to, and then he had to carry the burden that he played a part in the destruction of his hometown and the deaths of his community by delivering those letters. That's why he doesn't antagonize the "island devils" like the others do. He already saw himself as one.

[@Wapaz]

I don't think Armin is crying for the reason Michael thinks he's crying. But if he isn't a regular watcher, it's easy to miss the common misdirection in AoT.

[@christianweibrecht6555]

I believe Armin it's doing a much better job of lying to yelena then trying to deceive anne, he is probably Gilbert and by all the death and destruction caused by his failure to lure her into a trap

[@Spintwirl]

Yes Armin is crying because he found out their true plan and knows it goes against everything eren believes in hence he knows Eren is going to double cross them

[@cwj_721]

@@Spintwirl damn thats an interesting inferance

[@cwj_721]

@@Spintwirl but what about the possibility that eren actually was convinced by zeke? i think that would be likely from armin's perspective considering eren recently did not seem too good in the head

[@robertolukas3minutos]

@@cwj_721 Armin is Berthold in part, so it maybe the Berthold part in him

[@edgeelric4245]

8:58 he seriously underestimates just how much Levi hates Zeke lol.

[@samwizgamgie3rd828]

It's hard to convince Levi when Zeke killed his Bro Erwin.

[@steve34725]

I Think the way they put it in english is kinda misleading, Zeke doesn't say "euthanasia" but something like "soft/painless extermination" and that's why Levi replies to him that the death he's gonna have is already too soft considering what he has done (thinking that Zeke was asking for a painless death)

[@kaiasdogmom]

@@samwizgamgie3rd828 eu·tha·na·sia /ˌyo͞oTHəˈnāZH(ē)ə,ˌyo͞oTHəˈnāzēə/ Learn to pronounce noun the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma. The practice is illegal in most countries. How isn’t that the same?

[@SinHurr]

Few rage boners in history have compared.

[@DL-idk]

Yeah. Zeke literally made Levi kill his own comrades like one episode prior (and probably hours if not minutes ago in the show). It's hard for Levi to let THAT go already unless he stops being Levi

[@aquatay4675]

Another thing we have to keep in mind is Zeke’s own life experiences and trauma. When Zeke first mentions the euthanization plan to Ksaver, he specifically recalls a memory where as a small child he was told his existence is wrong. Basically Zeke is projecting himself and his feelings on to everyone else in his race and assuming their experiences will mirror his own, which is fair because it’s true eldians are literally not seen as human. A lot of people think that Zeke wants to euthanize the eldians because he has a god complex, but I believe that Zeke is projecting his own self hatred onto the rest of his race. He’s spent his entire life being told by the world how awful his existence is and I believe Zeke is a lot more emotionally sensitive than he lets on and that his own feelings of self disgust all root from the fact he was born eldian, therefore naively assuming that doing away with what he hates about himself will solve the worlds problems. For being such a smart man Zeke is surprisingly childish in his logic, and I think that shows just how much never having a childhood and being forced to grow up too soon affected him.

[@alveolate]

sure, zeke is probably projecting at least a little, regardless of whether he's aware of it or not. that said, his plan is based on pretty solid evidence. the marleyans have dominated and oppressed the eldians for decades, if not a century. the mainland eldians have basically pacified themselves into a slave race of sorts, yet the marleyans continue to grossly discriminate against them - it seems like nothing will change that status quo unless it's something really drastic. zeke's euthanasia plan will _guarantee_ that the eldians will go extinct and therefore there will never be any more eldians left to suffer this oppression. compare this to eren's current plan: to rumble the goddamned titans until _every non-eldian_ is decimated. clearly zeke's plan is far less destructive. this is of course, a false dichotomy: there could be other ways to stop the systematic oppression of eldians. the initial invasion of marley seemed to be a less extreme plan to get this done: by disabling marley's military and forcing them to sign some sort of treaty perhaps. that of course, is nowhere near as guaranteed as either zeke or eren's plans... the marleyans may sign a peace treaty under duress; but it is almost guaranteed that none of the underlying hatred for eldians will be quelled. given enough time, they will probably plot yet another uprising and revert that truce back to the current state of enslaving eldians. what you call 'childish' in zeke's logic is really just pure utilitarian logic: what is the most effective way to end this human suffering (without causing even more suffering). it's an extreme and absolutist plan, but it does seem pretty logical and attains his stated goals. his childhood trauma perhaps inspiring his plan does not make it childish, and he is fairly justified to assume most eldians would've thought that things would be better if they had never been born. it sounds twisted somewhat, but that's to _us_ who are born into a far more peaceful and just world than they were. if anything, it is _our bias_ that makes it hard to judge zeke's plan objectively.

[@masaritooo4762]

@@alveolate I agree :)

[@masaritooo4762]

@Quezel Also, very nicely argued. I do personally think his plan isn't childish. Maybe a wrong adjective to describe it considering the emotional damage he has gone through and in their world, it seems justified. And it isn't childish to project his childhood trauma onto others, it is just very sad and unfortunately the result of self-hatred and unbearable pain. It's a common psychological phenomena to project own feelings to others' lives when everything around you is focused on precisely hating you. So it's an unconscious strategy. Not something he's himself aware of. Sure, Zeke may be mentally immature but I still think nothing makes him childish, more like naive and biased, as a result of unprotective and unsafe envirnoment he's grown in. But I do agree his plan isn't probably the best out there but it is a fairly good plan, for now.

[@andrean733]

Spot on. He was pushing his own trauma on Eren as well and was very surprised to see that Eren''s experience didn't mirror his own

[@D0NTST4RT]

Totally makes sense considering he projected so much of himself onto Eren before spending more than five minutes with the guy

[@powermixer8]

I think we also have to bring up that Zeke was raised believing that his people were evil. He was indoctrinated both ways.

[@manthansharma4835]

@HealthVeins god damn no one is wrong in this series idk what kind of message aot would give us in the end

[@douniaelm1453]

@@manthansharma4835 in my opinion, attack on Titan is not really a story that’s converging towards a central theme or trying to convey a single message as much as it is just a raw depiction and exploration of the world and the human nature, both in their cruelty and their beauty. Many messages are sprinkled along the journey, and at some point, anyone can find something to learn, to reassess or to relate to. What it stands for has been perfectly summed up by Kruger when he said, “The only truth in this world is that there is no truth. Anyone can become a god or a devil; all it takes is for people to believe it.”

[@folmisimon2648]

Dounia Elm it’s the dumbest show ever it has no point

[@folmisimon2648]

HealthVeins insult where? Please don’t indulge me if u can’t process information

[@folmisimon2648]

HealthVeins proof of what ?? CNN bruv U know u actually don’t have to give a fuck about what I say or anything else for that matter right , you bothering yourself over nothing u like your show fine I don’t why u getting so aggravated

[@rentristandelacruz]

Zeke: "How can Eldians suffer if they no longer exist? Think about it." 🙃

[@thatdudeguy7176]

Think Eren Think!!!!

[@CaliburXL99]

Mr.Meeseeks: Existence is pain!

[@yoshikage9133]

Yea thats what i am saying

[@yoshikage9133]

Our sole salvation is eldia's euthanisation

[@InksManga]

@@CaliburXL99 why did you rope me into this

[@hridoyabdullah5133]

Attack on Titan is one of the best show to ever put to on the screen

[@ragentosquid9795]

True

[@thisninja11]

Yeah let’s not go that far lol

[@barsalty6768]

Buddy, lets not overexaggerate

[@cagedsoulss7912]

And the fact that isayama almost gave up on making attack on titan

[@ariq7167]

@@barsalty6768 fr, the ending destroy all of Eren character development, the rumbling is useless, the war wage on and with more fuel burnt because of Eren stupid act of genocide to be copy of Lelouch lol

[@manuam98]

"I don't wanna die, I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all" - Farrokh Bulsara, anti-natalist philosopher.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

I felt a bell ring at the name .... a bicycle bell, if you will.

[@kagekun1198]

I see a little silhouetto of a man, Scaramouch, Scaramouch, will you do the Fandango!

[@gsahara8405]

@@kagekun1198 Thunderbolts and lightning, very, very frightening me!

[@JuanLopez-mv7ru]

Galileo! (Galileo) Galileo! (Galileo) Galileo, Figaro! Magnifico!

[@seraby7151]

Tybur's speech basically.

[@JaimeNyx15]

Anti-natalism + Nuclear Nonproliferation = Zeke’s philosophy. And yeah, I think a lot of characters in the show are not actually convinced by his argument.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

> Anti-natalism + Nuclear Nonproliferation The two things overlap significantly when the nukes are people.

[@appleslover]

His plan was the best by far

[@Nous98]

@@appleslover nope. i'll go with Eren's plan. thank you very much

[@appleslover]

@@Nous98 genocide is better than not having children? Wtf?

[@rainevermore4683]

@@appleslover objectively, you're right, but objectively, Marley didn't have to declare war on Paradise before trying to reason with them.

[@LordOfOracle]

If Zeke's plan were to go through and Eldians became sterile, that would not mean the Eldians currently alive get off easily. It seems like Titans are practically immortal, untouched by time. So I could see Marley immediately convert a large portion of their Eldian population into titans, then keep them locked up until the need to deploy them arises. Sure, titans will go extinct at some point, when they are so obsolete in modern warfare that using them has no point, but the Eldians are not going to go out peacefully.

[@singularity1130]

Would also cause a new world war. A super power heavily dependent on Shifters now on a limited supply of manpower and in a prime position for setting up an assault on the new rich resources in Paradis. Every powerful nation would be looking to strike at Marley in an attempt to setup a position to invade Paradis. Military speaking Marley's navy has drastically weakened thanks to Armin making Sea Warfare and Naval assistance in other theaters too slow to respond. They've lost a sizable amount of titan shifters who were the crux of the majority military strategies and with how wasteful with suicide tactics Elidian's have been employed either they'll quickly run out of shifters to switch with or be absolutely disorganized as military personal are not prepared to be on the front-lines. Lastly resources will be diverted and balanced towards relief efforts to stabilize and recover from the Paradis attack; currently there is a homelessness and food crisis with ports and roads destroyed it'll be difficult to manage most functions of a city including creating and supplying resources to fight a war against multiple nations; this type of scenario leads to revolts and crime rates sky rocketing admits the desperation to survive without money/food (as most jobs were impacted by the attack and heavy tax to support the war will occur) and trained personal will be needed to reign in the rebellions/crime. That's just in the city satellite areas and previously occupied nations will also be able to use this moment to enact their own rebellions (likely funded by Marley rivals looking to invade Marley by spreading pandemonium). Politically the justification could be: Strike back and retake our lands, Strike while they're weak before we're next, Save our allied nations from the Marley threat, Return the lands too the people Marley Conquered, Prevent the Rumbling by taking lead where Marley failed. Plenty of opportunities to get funding from private backers thanks to the Marley resources and position at Paradis to take their lands will allow the income necessary to run a full scale invasion. Economically Marley losing it's port causes all sorts of restrictions which a nation can use to dominate Marley from a financial stand point but more so starve them out from receiving aid through predatory pricing and blockades allowing for the above to occur and a nation employing this methods to seize the land. Tl;dr Because Marley focused their military on Eldian's as the backbone they doomed themselves to a single point of failure. Marley was doomed to destruction the moment Armin blew up the port if not by Eren then by Marley's many foes. PSS I understand Marely is Nazi Germany but it's silly how Zeke would think such a xenophobic like Marley wouldn't see this as a golden opportunity to systematically remove all Eldians now that they know they cannot reproduce. They're already marked, tracked and imprisoned with the city now all thats left is to construct an execution chamber or utilize one of their many No Mans Lands as a mass burial/execution site. Any escapes won't matter as their survival rates are low outside society and without survival training and it's not like they'll rebuild since they can't reproduce the threat of shifters in a new nation.

[@aaa.internet7014]

I mean, if Zeke had full control of the founding Titan, he could make all Eldians like normal humans. No one will be able to transform into a Titan

[@charlesstuart3703]

@@aaa.internet7014 They'd still be persecuted and discriminated against by Marleyans though... so it would still be a miserable existence

[@cormachuynh5643]

Oh god I've never thing like that before. This is new, thank you

[@siremage3900]

i thought anyone transformed only has 13 years

[@SniderJ]

Fun fact: man in India sued his parents for bringing him into this world without his consent! And parents argue that if they had a way to communicate to him before he was born they surely have prevented it.

[@paulgotik]

that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

[@ishansharma2463]

How the fuck did this even get approved in the court.

[@youraveragejoe2]

He isn't wrong.

[@bruhmingo]

@@youraveragejoe2 he is wrong since he’s asking for the logically impossible

[@youraveragejoe2]

@@bruhmingo look up antinatalism

[@sofiaoviedo9192]

I tend to take Mikasa's philosophy in these sort of situations, yes the world sucks it's merciless and cruel and yet it still is beautiful, there's still things I find worth fighting for and living for regardless of how messy shit can get. I was born into this world, a messed up one, but at least I'll try to make the best out of it, protect those who make my world bearable and keep me from falling because at the end of the day that's the beauty I find in my own world. Loving these people, having passions and dreams makes me have hope. Like people say hope is the last thing you lose because when hope dissapears from your life you kind of lose life(or its purpose) itself. Bringing kids into this world will bring them suffering, they will have experiences that might not be so great, but they will also experience amazing things, things that sometimes remind you why you are even alive. I guess it all comes down to what are the terrible things you'll experience. This will probably end up depending on who your parents are and your background. Which is why I sometimes believe you should be evaluated on whether you are capable of having a kid but that's another story.

[@Shuizid]

The idea of eradicating suffering by eradicating beings able to expirince suffering is pretty flawed, as it reduces life to the prospect of "suffering" - and nothing else. Kinda like how some fictional works think that a self-aware AI would conclude to eradicate humans would be the best service to humans... it's funny but really fails to ask the subjects themself, what they want and explain why their personal goals are inferior to those theoretical constructs.

[@sofiaoviedo9192]

@@Shuizid Couldn't have said it better myself

[@hostedbysimples5416]

You're right, there is things that one may experience in life and those help to construct caracter and appreciation of its existence. However, if you think about some cases all across the world, today and in the past, there are countless examples of people who had a terrible life, who didn't had the same realization that you had about their suffering and either committed suicide or died wishing to never being born. Those people are, sadly, not an irrelevant number. There is always a possibility of you to contribute to create that person. Thus the question, is having children immoral with the knowledge that someone may wish to never having been born?

[@Liathrys]

@@Shuizid It is fundamentally flawed because it does not solve and kill the problem to its core. Also, considering how GREEDY humans are, and how much ulterior motives and personal agendas they would be willing to fight for. Wrong have and will never truly cancel out another wrong.

[@jesse3311]

Consider this, this school of thought doesn't exist whatsoever in poorer parts of the world. You know what else doesn't exist nearly at all? Suicide. It is seen as completely illogical and counterproductive. There are tribes where they have no concept of suicide, of killing the self. Their culture is incapable of comprehending it. There is a scientific fact that by 1st world standards, the poorer you are and more technological advancement you lack (such as running water, refrigeration, interior climate control, electronic media, or light after sunset) somehow the less suicidal you are, and the MORE likely you will have 3+ children. If there is one takeaway from this, the people on Earth who live in the comparatively worse conditions seem to know something more about happiness and life than we do. And that we have a habit of exaggerating the suffering and pain of our lives, and life in general. Let us enjoy life for the sake of being alive, and enjoy the simple beauties like spending time with friends, enjoying nature, and expressing our thoughts in art. I refuse to let pseudo intellectuals tell us we shouldn't be alive, and that our short lives, as microscopic moments in the cosmos as they are, should be even shorter. If you want to die of old age, just wait, it will be here much sooner than you know.

[@shauryasuri3653]

My money is on eren having a plan inside zeke's plan. The way eren talked seemed like he was just saying what zeke wanted to hear. My theory is that eren has some alternative plan.

[@yungmeanmug]

hehehe

[@BucioTheZenith]

hehehe

[@prime2243]

hehehe

[@valtontony826]

hehehe

[@o5-682]

hehehe

[@charleshammel8541]

So Zeke is saying "wont somebody please think of the children!?" In a Bond villain voice

[@diamondsrubies1964]

😆😆😆

[@GarrettMazzuca]

Zeke's plan runs counter to a very core philosophy of the show. "The world outside the walls is my birthright." "We are special simply for having been born into this world." The show argues that everyone should be born free and to hell to those that would take that freedom.

[@nazojin7557]

Basically Eren lol

[@florida7362]

@@nazojin7557 well the Manga literally translates to Attack Titan so it is his story lol

[@noobnexttome]

contrary after the time skip these are not center philosophy's of the story

[@edvinjoseph]

Except when it wasn't

[@daylonhowell9631]

It really seems like this season is a deconstruction of and reaction to those ideas. What happens when that idea is taken to its extreme end- when "I have a right to my 'freedom' and anyone who would deny me that is my enemy" means those enemies are literally the innocents of the entire world. AoT has been an examination of the "us vs them" worldview from the beginning. That ideology always, eventually, inevitably turns into "us vs us" and Erin is culmination of that.

[@DXDragon38]

I would love to see a roundtable of multiple philosophers discussing this topic. This show should be brought up as a topic in a debate

[@nenmaster5218]

Abelism = Dangerous. So dangerous, even the Notion is kinda a Problem. Trust me: The Autistic Community especially has to fear a lot the Possibility of Abelism being decided to be ok for one field; which would stretch-out to other field, which would stretch to more field (and all that in a world where Bio-Enginewering will definetly be a Thing one day); hence why it weights heavy on some peoples mind.

[@gregramos8216]

It's not explained ever in the manga but it is thought that Armin was crying to manipulate Yelena. Its thought that he did that just to probe her emotions and understand more about their plan, but is interrupted by a soldier. If you see in the next panel everyone is looking at the soldier except Armin who is looking at Yelena, probably still trained on her to see what she reacts as. It relates back to a scene in chapter 48 when he intimidates Bertolt about them torturing Annie in the capital (which is a lie) which is just to distract him and probe more information, which is where we first hear them referred to as "Devils."

[@AugustusBohn0]

I love Armin's character arc, he goes from sweet loveable little bookworm to sweet loveable older bookworm with laser focused disinformation skills.

[@ZetaMoolah]

Dat boi Armin is *s h a r p*

[@tnb4509]

I think he was genuinely emotional. Zeke's plan was the best and most efficent way to establish peace for both sides. Certainly much more peaceful than Eren's plan. Armin was starting to lose hope for establishing peace, so he was happy to see that there was a way and Eren was supposedly on-board.

[@gregramos8216]

@@tnb4509 Zekes plan is forced sterilization without asking. A. Not an answer to freedom it’s actually death. B. That’s some nazi sympathetic strategies which the author would never allow. The underlying fascism would just teach kids the wrong lesson. Idk what you read but that’s not what the author was trying to get at homie

[@tnb4509]

@@gregramos8216 Well then I suggest you look at the alternative, 'homie'. The author wasn't exactly trying to get at genocide either, but look what Eren did to 80% of the population. Just read chapter 139. Zeke's plan is basically Eren's and Armin's but better. I can explain but that would spoil the ending so I'm asking for your consent first.

[@jonassteinbach2673]

As a philosophy student and a weeb, I couldn't be any happier

[@whathell6t]

@Jonas Steinbach What about Evangelion? Weebs are divided by that show. Anime Weebs hate Evangelion, but Tokusatsu Weebs and Cinema Kinos love Evangelion.

[@jonassteinbach2673]

@@whathell6t Well i kinda binge watched Evangelion so I didn't really have the time needed to evaluate what I saw so I'd have to watch it another time to answer that question properly. For now however, I love shows/animes that want to change my mindset or tell me a deeper message rather than just two guys punching each other (I still watch those kind of anime, but they just don't stick with me the way a good philosophical/ethical or whatever-cal lesson does). So Evangelion is probably rather high on my list, I just didn't take the time needed to realise that.

[@m_winewood]

Titan: *AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH*

[@gorand007]

Ayyyy wassuuuup brudda! Are you on bachelor's or master's? Coz Im finishing my masters course this summer with a thesis on ethics is videogames. Stay strong and spread the word of everything geek among normies xD

[@jonassteinbach2673]

@@gorand007 I am on my Bachelors but I just started, currently in my 2nd semester. I am studying to become a teacher, so I will most definitely spread the word of everything geek ;).

[@ALWalserauthor]

I think something that was missing from this is looking at the two different Eldian groups. The ones who are down with Zeke's plan are primarily the Eldians who grew up outside Paradis and thus have a very different view on life than the group within the walls. Those in the walls never faced persecution the way the "outer" Eldians did. I'm not saying they had a peachy life, but the "inners" didn't grow up with Marley's relentless persecution and constant messages that they were inhuman devils. I think in a lot of ways the people trapped in the walls were freer than those outside them, and that a lot of Zeke's philosophy comes from internalizing Marley's propaganda. As a parting note, I have note read the manga; I don't know how that influences what I've said here and would greatly appreciate it if people replying could abstain from posting spoilers.

[@FutureMindset]

The major flaw with Zeke's thought process is that he doesn't realize that there will always be conflict and suffering, even if all the eldians are wiped out. As long as there's more than one person alive, there will always be conflict.

[@CharlieViola100]

Yeah, marley is still conquering other countries regardless of eldians

[@krombopulos_michael]

True, although it would at least end the speocifc intractable conflict that the Titans bring about. I guess at least from his perspective, as long as Eldians exist and can control titans, the world can never be at peace with them.

[@rodgar3759]

but he doesnt care about conflict or other people. he only cares about the specific Eldian suffering. As I understand it, for him it's like if now everyone in a community was born with crystal skin, so when you have childern they WILL have crystal skin and suffer all their lives. He doenst think that being born is bad, he believes that being born as an Eldian is bad because you are bound to suffer no matter what.

[@bridyboo3967]

"as long as there's more than one person alive, there's always gonna be someone that wants someone else dead" -sniping's a good job, mate

[@Eltener123]

he doesn't care about the suffering of other races. He's specifically doing it for Eldians

[@TH31NF1D3L]

“The pessimist’s credo, or one of them, is that nonexistence never hurt anyone and existence hurts everyone.” ― Thomas Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race: A Contrivance of Horror

[@shlockofgod]

Depends on the definition of "hurt".

[@principal_optimism]

@@shlockofgod Depends on a WHOLE lot more than that, as does any statement.

[@nenmaster5218]

Abelism = Dangerous. So dangerous, even the Notion is kinda a Problem. Trust me: The Autistic Community especially has to fear a lot the Possibility of Abelism being decided to be ok for one field; which would stretch-out to other field, which would stretch to more field (and all that in a world where Bio-Enginewering will definetly be a Thing one day); hence why it weights heavy on some peoples mind.

[@alveolate]

@@shlockofgod yea that statement is as sweeping as they get. but "nonexistence never hurt anyone" is pretty much objectively true. "existence hurts everyone" is definitely exaggerated hyperbole. there are definitely great people whose existence doesn't hurt "everyone" or even "anyone". heck, they may even benefit everyone! that said, is it really that great to benefit everyone of a species that still can't rein itself back from destructive excesses? good job jonas salk for inventing the polio vaccine and not trying to charge big pharma prices for it... but how many of those people who would've died of polio are now big oil execs fucking up the planet? are we sure there are other saved-from-polio folks who would actually be of greater benefit than the ones who are bad? it all gets a little crazy when the idea is applied at scale.

[@shlockofgod]

@@alveolate It still depends on the definition. What's the definition of "hurt"?

[@thenicesven5328]

Manga Reader here: YES. Once season 4 Part2 drops we NEED a follow up to this video

[@sunnyrainyday6820]

I love Zeke’s view on humanity (summarized by me as): “no one deserves to die, but Human beings don’t deserve to exist”. Zeke recognizes the horror of violence and death but he was born into a world that is consumed with more monotonous oppression built on stupid distrust between people so he sees that oppression as inherent inevitability of humankind and so should not exist

[@onlypranav]

Nope. Replace human beings with Eldians.. He sees potential in Marleyans. In the fictional setting there is an incentive to marginalize the group, but still keep them breeding. Classic case of dehumanizing a group and using them only as weapons, kinda makes sense in that extreme setting.. still hate it though

[@devaxionrl8189]

So what. Philosophy is bullshit

[@sunnyrainyday6820]

@@devaxionrl8189 I’m literally philosophizing. “Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms. It’s by talking nonsense that one gets to the truth! I talk nonsense, therefore I’m human. Not one single truth has ever been arrived at without people first having talked a dozen reams of nonsense,” -crime and punishment

[@triceratops7084]

How does he recognize the horror of violence when the MF was playing fucking baseball with the scouts having a ton of fun???The guy couldn't care less about human life

[@sunnyrainyday6820]

@@triceratops7084 BullShit. Zeke understands war and that’s why he’s so good at strategy and has on many occasions saved lives of his fellow soldiers. Point in case that blonde chick that’s like “he is a god!” He kills the soldiers with glee because he’s happy that his plan to corner the scouts resulted in them going for a suicide attack, he probably agonized over what he should do to wipe out the scouts while Bertold and Reiner fought elsewhere.

[@kien9350]

13:00 Yeah pretty sure Armin is Lying. I mean, Eren, Mr.Freedom, The guy who thinks people are special because they were born into this world is follow along with Zeke plan. Armin probably figure it out that Eren will betray Zeke.

[@ChrisSonPEI]

I think we need an update now that the show is over.

[@soufian2733]

Oh my God I’m so happy you guys are tackling this story. You need to cover the final arc that’s coming next winter!!

[@turnipmanz1754]

What

[@solpacheco4891]

next winter! Thats it. Im reading the manga

[@soufian2733]

@@solpacheco4891 you won’t regret it

[@aakashaggarwal685]

@@soufian2733 he may regret it ngl

[@soufian2733]

@@aakashaggarwal685 116-133 is peak aot for me.. and everyone's going to find out about the ending once the anime finishes so it doesn't really matter if he reads or waits

[@psicharan8797]

You guys need to do a take on Vinland Saga. Fatherhood in Vinland saga or something. It's extremely good. As always, love the content, keep it up guys!

[@paperboy1116]

Vinland Saga in general just needs more love.

[@TheLethalIntrospectionCrew]

Oh yes! Askelad is an episode all his own!

[@theLikou1]

The next arc after Askellad is way, way better than anything the series have delivered before.

[@paperboy1116]

@@theLikou1 the entire story just gets better and better

[@theLikou1]

@@paperboy1116 Yeah, I'm buying the manga, it's one of the best ones out there.

[@helgageraldine513]

I live in the Philippines, and what's immoral to me are people who live in extreme poverty, who could barely feed themselves and one or two of their children but would still go and make 10 more kids!

[@rifroll1117]

We need a full video for the first half of Season 4

[@chrissullivan6572]

Nah, they gotta wait n do the whole thing. The 2nd half has better material for this kinda conversation imo

[@rifroll1117]

@@chrissullivan6572 but that ending is really problematic from a thematic perspective. After covering such a wealth of humanitarian topics, the manga failed to bring closure to it all

[@chrissullivan6572]

@@rifroll1117 That I can certainly agree with. I would like to see the take on Eren's plan, how he manipulated everything, and just an overall take on the last arc.

[@Obrienjob98]

@@chrissullivan6572 they have been doing it for years so I say they will do it when it finally ends

[@kaiblade760]

@@rifroll1117 Yes, The manga ending was not so good. The problem many great manga seem to have is subpar endings, this could be because their mangakas were being rushed or were burnt out.

[@oftenspanx]

I didn't realize there was an entire school of thought over how I feel about having kids.

[@LuciTerra666]

There's nothing new under the sun. Look up the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

[@Madsovic999]

Welcome to the internet sir

[@alexanerose4820]

Probably made by people who never and will never get some action and had to justify it somehow

[@LuciTerra666]

@@alexanerose4820 Not quite.

[@shounak1715]

Same , was pretty surprised that this was an actual philosophical thing and not just my thoughts on how having children is wrong

[@Sanguinnius]

7:28 I think anyone who knows eren's character well would know that he's basically lying to use zeke.

[@xavmanisdabestest]

This video made me realise I've been an anti-natalist my whole life. I've always wanted to adopted over having my own since the world is a f'd up place, i may pass on birth defects etc. But with adoption I'm objectively helping someone's situation. And the end result of me having someone to care for, help grow, mold and discover their potential is all exactly the same. Just without the biology of relation but i never thought that was important considering my best friend and best relationship with a human i had was with my step dad who ofc i was not related too.

[@absolutefocus2749]

if u wana adopt instead of having kids that's great imo. But where Zeke's character passes into "eyo chief, wtf you're talkin like a nazi" is in FORCING people to live with rules of reproduction based on your opinion of how people should reproduce.

[@nicknack-snack2]

@@absolutefocus2749 I would disagree with Zeke, I know it’s horrible but to me every single proposed option seems hopeless or more terrible than Zekes plan. The fundamental problem is that the eldian people have a curse that they have exploited themselves and are being exploited for in the present. This isnt the real world were everyone is basically the same. This is a fake world were Titans need to go away in some way shape or form. There are absolutely no good answers. I truly can’t relate this to real world problems because it’s as if every person of this fictional race has is born with a bomb strapped to their chest, peace is all but impossible. Its not skin color, appearance or some other real world made up issue, it’s an actual problem. What made me side with Zeke is probs partially Anti-Natalist tendencies, but more so that I think it just save the most lives in the long run while allowing those already born live out their lives as well. That being said I also believe ever country and every individual has the right to defend themselves and choose to oppose those threatening their natural rights. Suffering is part of the human condition so maybe choosing an option based “less would suffer” is completely meaningless. History is written by the winners and in the world of AOT you’d be hard pressed to find a completely despicable character even if they do despicable things (except floch)

[@absolutefocus2749]

@@nicknack-snack2 why not conquer the world and then through propaganda erase all knowledge of eldians being titans, while at the same time killing off all titan shifters and titans? Why not do what king Fritz did, i.e isolate the eldians on an island (which had seemed to work pretty well until they got ya know attacked)? Why not idk fucking force eugenics by taking over the world and forcing eldians to reproduce with non eldians therefore erasing the "bad blood"? Like there are countless solutions instead of "well, looks like the best course of action is making my race extinct, wether they want to or not"

[@megashark1013]

@@absolutefocus2749 Because the conquering of the entire planet *might* cause a huge amount of death, pain and suffering. Just an idea.

[@nicknack-snack2]

@@megashark1013 Im of two minds: One is the Godzilla quote “Let them fight” because everyone has somewhat valid reasons to oppose each other. History will continue on...Or Zekes plan. If you’re more inclined towards individual freedom let them fight/world domination/ eradication or completely subjugation will appeal to you more, and honestly I can see why. Atleast that way everyone has a fightingchance. Forced sterilization through Magical means gives no chance to those affected. But in the “let them fight” scenario it’s all but guaranteed more lives are lost than in Zekes plan. I could go either way but again, devil’s advocate lol.

[@BonnoJ17]

Suggestion for a Wisecrack take: Monster. Anime set in Germany. There're quiet a lot of theories and interpretations floating around, but they don't have that *chef's kiss* Wisecrack seal of approval

[@SuperSeigerman]

I think to a certain degree the setting is a bit of a distraction. I think a part of this is a complicated discussion about the relationship between Japan and its former colonies.

[@appleslover]

Please people don't give spoilers

[@Joker-jw1iq]

@@appleslover Spolier the main villain has blond hair

[@devaxionrl8189]

Best anime of all time debatably

[@agranero6]

@@appleslover He already did on the video: if didn't see the first two seasons all is already ruined by seeing the video: even knowing the theme of the 4th season already is a giant spoiler for the three first seasons.

[@sophiapacione]

It would be interesting to see him react to Eren's actual belief: "BECAUSE I was born into this world" alongside this one, as they are near polar-opposites.

[@buzzroyale]

9:48 "we're basically doing a societal upper decker in the toilet tank of the future" bro this was a slow burn laugh for me... Damn

[@DrumWild]

"Are kids unethical" is the wrong question, for it asserts that kids are engaging in unethical behavior. The proper question is "Is having kids unethical?".

[@JosePineda-cy6om]

@@josephnigel8811 No, he's just pointing out that the original framing of the title's question is very ambiguous as to what's being asked rhetorically of you, the viewer. His reformulation is crystal clear as to what are the author's intentions

[@SendoPLUS]

Humanity itself is unethical. Ethics are something that we constructed, ethics don't exist in nature. Humans are a disease to this planet. And while we should not harm eachother, the only way to ensure that this will not happen is to stop existing all together so that nature can flourish.

[@cv4809]

@@SendoPLUS "we shouldn't harm each other" Who says so? Why shouldn't we harm each other? Who decides what's ethical? You're contradicting yourself

[@sirpieman300]

@@SendoPLUS nature harms itself all the time.

[@paulgotik]

@@SendoPLUS every animal is a "disease" to other animals or plants. That's how nature works, nature cannibalizes itself. If you have too much lions, lions would be a disease against gazelles and gazelles would go extint. If you have too much cows alot of plant species would go extint and alot of water would disappear. Throught history tons of different species have been a "disease" to other species and made them go extint. Humans are exactly the same but with a bigger scope since we have inlfuence over way more different types of life beings. Humans are just animals with alot of influence over other live beings but that doesn't mean we are behaving in a way out of the ordinary, ultimatly we are just acting to preserve our own species at the cost of other live being like what every animal, plant, fungus etc.. even viruses do. Even if we cannibalize every piece of "nature" on earth nature still exists, the universe is part of nature. We would just kill every live being on this planet. In a universal scope this as little impact. This would have only terrible and huge impacts on our own level of reference since our planet is all we have known for thousads of years and it's our home that humans want to preserve.

[@what._.2285]

I really hated Zeke because of what he did in shiganshina - killing Erwin, my favourite character in the entire show. But then as they went deeper into his character I could see what he saw, I could relate to him more than I ever did with any character. Being born into an abusive family - my childhood has been a nightmare. And even now, as a teen I realise the worst part of the nightmare has just begun. And I look at my younger sister and think " she's better off dead than live this, than go through what I've gone through" I love her to bits and maybe growing up in such conditions has messed me up but I think it would've been better if she were never born. With no certainty for a secure future, certainty that she'll grow up traumatized deeply - it seems to me like the easy way out. So I see where Zeke's coming from now - and he's one of the most well-written characters in the show

[@pocari2917]

I hope you and your sister are doing alright now

[@alveolate]

remember: zeke's plan is NOT to kill off all living eldians... it is to sterilise them ONLY. this means that they will continue to live and just be unable to reproduce. the translation says "euthanise" a lot; but that word only applies to the eldian _bloodline_ specifically, not to individual eldians. he wishes to end the cursed bloodline but stops short of murdering every eldian.

[@theoutsider8745]

@@alveolate sterilization is a form of euthanasia let's not kid ourselves. So what if he kills a few select Eldians and makes the rest sterile and giving them the "mercy" of dying of old age. The end goal of Zeke is to wipe out the Eldians completely from the world as "naturally" as possible. Why not just kill them all off in one go instead of going to all of that trouble? Zeke regards his people and himself as animals that need to be castrated and put down. So subsequently he doesn't see them and himself as human beings at all. Nothing more and nothing less.

[@WoWGirl6]

I don’t agree. Life is suffering. Its default. It’s by design. You think animals out in nature have it good? The wild is harsh. So I suppose all wild animals just shouldn’t exist because they don’t have it as good as humans. This philosophy is downright masochist. It’s self hating. Even the ones who say they have a perfect life really don’t. Whether they’re aware of that or not. You’d be surprised how effective defense mechanisms and cognitive dissonances are. More importantly, our suffering defines us. It humbles us. And the suffering makes us appreciate the good things so much more. Without suffering life is bland. Without suffering we don’t have anything to learn from. If you were to justify this mind frame, it just means you’d be fine without anything ever existing... well that doesn’t make sense. because every living thing suffers. Look at history. The people who had the most tragic lives inspired people. Ghandhi, Queen Elizabeth, I dunno, Keanu Reeves!...lol

[@shau9901]

​@@WoWGirl6​ So am I supposed to like to live even if I'm greatly suffering from it because others have it worse or that "it's our default state"? Or am I supposed to like suffering because "it defines and humbles me"? How is that philosophy less masochistic than that philosophy of yours that convinces us to "like suffering because you know it makes life less bland and we learn stuff from it. The irony here is glaring. Let alone the faulty logic. You're basically telling the guy that, yeah you are suffering but it's fine since "it's default to suffer". So unless you believe in the concept of Afterlife or you aren't born pampered to a relatively good life where you derive pleasure more than suffering from it you don't get to preach that one state is better than the other to people who have it much worse than you and are suffering greatly because of it such as OP. To put it into the anime's context it's like a marleyan noble living in a bubble obliviously telling an oppressed eldian that yeah life is harsh but you shouldn't not exist because it's default that everyone suffers and and it's self hating to think otherwise. What a self centered way to think.

[@samr2478]

"Never lie in a relationship" - Michael PhD

[@paulgotik]

people will allways lie. It's impossible to never lie about anything in your entire life, even if it's by accident.

[@voltgaming2213]

Yes

[@BenDeHart]

The argument Zeke makes assuming life will be better for the marlyan’s without the specter of the Titans hanging over them ignores the very real shadow of their neighbors growing technological superiority over them. If this plan went off, many nations would fight over colonizing paradise, resulting in a world war that brought about world war levels of suffering. The Titans are very much going extinct, but more because they’re becoming obsolete rather than they’re too powerful to be left around

[@patodlmm]

Bugs me how this decredits much of the shows' central conflict... I wonder if how they'll tie all this together in the last season.

[@darthvader4339]

Yes, and secondly, when Titans are gone it’s gonna be technological warfare, and advanced technology can absolutely obliterate Titans, then the 7 (or 9?) Titan shifters will either retreat into hiding or die and the Founder (Eren or Ymir or whoever has it) will go to the paths.

[@j_official4138]

ok so basically ending humanity with the rumbling will always be the best choice

[@SeductiveSushi]

@@j_official4138 but not everyone outside of paradis deserves to get trampled But the people inside of paradis don't deserve to die either Now it's just a parallel of the train test (Or the version I'm boutta make up) Where you either kill 1 family member (let Eldians die) Or kill 3 random civilians (Everyone else) Since there's more people outside the walls it would have more of a possibly bad impact on the world to kill all of them instead Now that I think about it Everyone who sides with Eren is just as terrible to the people outside the walls because so many never deserved The Rumbling to happen to them Because like Eren said Outside of the walls is the same as in Paradis Meaning that killing everyone outside the walls is just as evil as them killing Paradis If Eren killed everyone outside the walls and left Paradis alone It's not like their island is gonna stay forever They're all gonna start creating factions and fighting amongst themselves and splitting off of the island and creating new countries Meaning the cycle of violence starts all over again Basically there is no right choice *Ever*

[@AndreaKeil]

@@SeductiveSushi I like your thoughts. That's why I like the manga ending - do you know it already? Not gonna spoil beforehand.

[@fullmetaltheorist]

"I think you're wonderful." This put an actual smile on my face.

[@JAXARE99]

I notice a lot of people bring up that they believe AOT has fascist undertones but is it wrong to have a piece of media present such ideas and allow us as the audience to have sort of an overview of this ideology within a fictional world so that we can critique and pick apart the flaws within it? (Genuine question, hope i worded it correctly.)

[@josephnigel8811]

You can often equate this to satire or other educational engagements. The book the Prince by Machiavelli wasn't meant to be a textbook on how to be a "Good fake christian prince" but he was remembered by the gen pop for only being the man who told people how to be it, instead of just educating them. It rarely ever comes down to the intention of the producer but the weakness of the consumer in this form of education. Such a shame.

[@AriSun4]

To me it's not the portrayal of the ideology in itself but the stance of the the story as a whole and it's resolution that, without going into spoilers, seem to kinda justify it

[@JAXARE99]

@@josephnigel8811 thanks for that response.

[@JAXARE99]

@@AriSun4 but even if the story tries to justify it we still have the leverage of deciding to believe that justification or not, i finished the manga as well.

[@krombopulos_michael]

@@AriSun4 the story doesn't justify it though. It portrays the effects of the militaristic and fascist mindset as insane and shows in pretty graphic gory detail the suffering they cause against innocent civilians. The Marlayan society that keeps Eldians in ghettos and brainwashes residents into hating other Eldians is shown as cruel and manipulative. Similarly, the Eldians from the island who want to establish a new empire and crush the rest of the world are also portrayed as horrifically evil and villainous. By the end of the series, the team of heroes are a coalition of forces from all nations who are trying to prevent genocide and then broker a peace between nations, even if it is going to be difficult.

[@juliajaeger8175]

I agree that not being born is the greatest salvation. As someone who was genetically given anxiety and depression, something that will be chronic and never go away, knowing that my future children will probably be worse off than me is absolutely why I choose to not have kids. I do enough suffering myself. I couldn't live with myself if I forced my children into that.

[@shinkounova8485]

I agree depending on circumstance. This KZbinr says that he doesn't agree but he has literally no idea the horrors that await some people in this lifetime.

[@cryingcrane8173]

Bless you for that honorable and rational choice :)

[@Fear_the_Nog]

I mean, not to belittle your suffering, but, also as someone with chronic depression and anxiety....maybe you're just focusing too much on it? At the end of the day, it's depression, it ain't cancer. My depression sucks sweaty cocks but I'd be much more down if I had cancer. Your perspective, it's literally the same philosophy as -- for all you Elden Ring players out there -- the Frenzied Flame Cult: Life is suffering, so instead of, you know, doing some yoga, meditate, or finding Jesus, or heck, go Vegan, let's destroy ourselves or our future and end it all. I guess it's a bit metal, and you can write some hardcore screamo about it. Thing is, you really can't know if your children would even suffer. Why the conclusion?

[@zacharyarons6950]

Did you actually say that your anxiety and depression stems from your genes rather than going through traumatic life events like your loved ones or poverty? If that's the case, then Jesus Christ, I feel bad for you. Being unable to feel happy just because you're genetically hardwired to lack any capacity for positive emotions? God, I couldn't imagine a more hellish existence! Don't wanna be insensitive but I just can't help but wonder. Is your genes actually the sole cause of your depression? Or did life events also contribute to your current mental health condition?

[@uvindukulathunga3860]

Zeke s plan is better than making more Soldier babies

[@TimeStar20]

One of the biggest flaws I see in Zeke's plan is that he's internalized all the anti-Eldian propaganda to the point that he's unable to see that his people's suffering is the direct result of the Marleyans' actions. If the Marleyans have the right to oppress and subjugate the Eldians out of self-preservation, then why don't the Eldians have the same right of self-preservation? The Eldians living on Paradis Island weren't living lives of abnormal or excessive suffering until the Marleyans sent their Titans to instigate the suffering that Eren now wants revenge for! I'm not excusing the violence perpetrated by Reiner, Bertolt and Annie, but they were the child pawns of the Marleyan's military ambitions and social conditioning. Paradis Island should've served as an example to Zeke that Eldians can live lives free of the overwhelming suffering he knows in Marley.

[@raguelcezar0013]

Have you read the ending of the manga?

[@TimeStar20]

@@raguelcezar0013 No. I only know what's been shown on the anime.

[@KingAfrica4]

I don’t think people are getting the point. Zeke doesn’t only want people to have kids to end Eldian suffering, but to also stop Titans from existing. As long as there’s people that can turn into Titans there’s never going to be peace just because there’s always the threat of the Titans

[@gray6719]

This channel gives me hope that my degree won't be useless after I graduate

[@shounak1715]

I am sorry I am stupid but what is your degree , I didn't get it ?

[@aditkircon9391]

@@shounak1715 Phd

[@AndreasVesaliusTF2]

It is useless. Its a meme

[@mushyomens6885]

@@shounak1715 the guy in the video has a philosophy PhD but is now a host on this channel, thats what the comment is about

[@shounak1715]

@@mushyomens6885 I see I didn't get notified so kinda late on the response , thanks for explaining.

[@master007v]

Oh, I would love to hear his take on Vinland Saga's Ep 11 where they talk about the meaning of love

[@billreigns9318]

It's episode 18.

[@izrael820]

All you need to know is that Erens main theme is freedom and the quote "We deserve to live because we are born into this world"

[@DXDragon38]

This is actually fascinating to hear from a philosophical point of view

[@naurrr]

the Solar Sands video on antinatlism made me recognize this concept immediately when i got to the chapter about Zeke's plan lmao

[@procrastinator547]

I think you’re gonna have a lot to talk about when part 2 drops.

[@tnb4509]

Nah, pre- 139 Eren's plan is pretty simple and a lot more immoral. Basically, kill everyone else to save the minority that is precious to me.

[@Phsousa-fc8qg]

@@tnb4509 then you missed 130 and 131 "But there's more than that... The world isn't like Armin's book, when i learned that humanity lived outside the walls i was disappointed" "The one who could see it would be the freest person in the world, this is freedom" "Ever since i was born the world was surrounded by walls" Eren motivations are layered af, he has a lot of contradicting desires inside him, but his desire and revolt for him to be born in a free world like in Armin's book to explore it is one of his main ones, only second to the lives of his friends and that's debatable too "I wanted everything left to be a blank terrain" in 139 too

[@kritikasrivastava530]

@@Phsousa-fc8qg there is no point, buddy. These people have already made their minds up

[@freewyvern707]

@@Phsousa-fc8qg Eren is a pragmatic man that wants contradictory ideals. This conflict eventually leads him to a tragic self destruction.

[@Phsousa-fc8qg]

@@freewyvern707 I wouldn't say he's a pragmatic man (even tho he uses a pragmatic approach as a tool in Marley and first half of WfP) but he's rather impulsive in nature and emotions, his desires being chained in a childish and selfish dream Kinda similar to Erwin, which outside is a pragmatic leader that desires humanity's victory but inside is deep-rooted in a kid's selfish and simple dream of proving his father's truth. I think it's beautiful how it ties the reason x impulse in several characters in the series, "everyone is a slave to something" but yeah tragic and self-destructive def

[@stavborochov1673]

I think part of what makes this situation so interesting is that although it is true that forcing eldians to stop having kids is unethical, there is still the fact that only eldians can turn into titans, which means that just as they are gonna be forced to be weapons eventually either way, they can be forced to not have children, so Which option is better? Honestly I believe that with a race as doomed as the eldians, the better option is stopping them from having children. Of course if you do that war will still go on, but it won't be fought by only one race who don't have any other choice.

[@machexx1494]

Now that Part 2 is out, I want his thoughts on forced, brutal genocide and literally the polar opposite of Zeke’s plan.

[@005Turk]

If Zeke can make people sterile, he probably also has the power to just turn off their ability to become titans He's just taking his anger out on his people

[@yigithan.kilinc]

He doesn't have that power. You'll see that later in the show.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

that is beyond the power of the Founder. Just wait, you'll see actually kind of early into Part 2.

[@daryno9073]

He actually couldn’t do that

[@davidgn40]

@@thirdplanet4471 not him, but someone *similar* to him.

[@doomdoot6731]

Actually, he doesn't have that power. We sadly don't know that yet in the anime though

[@alexmikhylov]

there is an important detail that all the titan shifters have some access to the memories of their predecessors. so while Jean, who is not down with the plan, experienced a lifetime of suffering, Armin, who expresses to be down with the plan, kind of experienced numerous amount of lifetimes of suffering. the same goes for Zeke and Eren. in the show Eren actually changed very drastically after gaining access to predecessors' memories. actually so did Armin, but his changes aren't that eye-catching, he just got kinda mega-depressed and apathetical. the point is, the perspective of titan shifters is very different from everyone else's.

[@TheRockerX]

Something tells me you haven't read ahead in the manga

[@alexmikhylov]

@@TheRockerX no I have not. I know that both Armin and Eren might be very well lying, the argument about titan shifters having different perspective on everything is still very much valid.

[@Jungkith]

I love how every dialogue somewhat gives a gist to the aot story. Incredible.

[@cesarrod8074]

I'll keep moving forward... Till I destroy my enemies...

[@lordgeneralmilitantdeezy7550]

TATAKAI TATAKAI

[@hectorvillela5445]

@@lordgeneralmilitantdeezy7550 were you saying, "Fight fight" to that mirror just now?

[@100pmistry]

Great Video! Attack on Titan is one of my favorite anime’s! As for recommendations. Parasyte the Maxim could need a philosophical reaction.

[@chriswave1992]

Absolutely! Parasyte is fantastic.

[@スタバ-w6h]

寄生獣は是非日本語で見て欲しいです。本当に哲学的です。

[@Alphonso6977]

“Because I was born into this world”

[@cora5534]

oh god, my favorite youtuber talking about my favorite anime thats paradise

[@izshtar]

I watched AOT because of these themes man. Yams really went for the m o n e y

[@gormsnakur5763]

Fr. That ending was a disaster

[@Nai-qk4vp]

@@gormsnakur5763 Hacksayama

[@great_channel]

i hope they change the ending in the anime mann aot had everything to become a classic

[@SinHurr]

Really don't get why people dislike the ending so much. It's hopeless, depressing, and built on a never ending cycle of violence just like the rest of the series.

[@TheLaughingOut]

Did we watch different shows? Zeke wasn't advocating for killing kids. He wanted to sterilize his own people, not because they were suffering, but because they can become titans which cause suffering.

[@ClassyJackBF]

I'm still reserving judgement on AoT. I got some creepy militarist fascist vibes from the first two seasons. But in season 4 you can really see the damage militarism, expansionism, nationalism, racism etc do to people. There's a big difference between depicting and showing something, and endorsing or advocating something. I think if anything the show demonstrates how people can be seriously messed up by their environments and upbringing, Gabi is an excellent example of that.

[@krombopulos_michael]

The comic goes out of its way to show the absurdity of generalising and dehumanising a different group of people and that it just causes suffering for all. I really don't think that it in any way endorses the kinds of things that would be necessary to subscribe to fascism.

[@JosePineda-cy6om]

Yeah... that poor girl completely swallowed Marley's propaganda - up to the line and hook, as they say. The moment she understands the "others" are just as humans as herself... she finally starts becoming free of all that brain washing

[@kanvaros4451]

I think you’ll find that the manga and the anime actually make a point to highlight how these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate the other , and how much evil and carnage came come from “good ideals.” While I won’t say it lands perfectly I think it’s a well written observation on the effects of nationalism and jingoistic militarism

[@mattd5240]

Just because the show has those themes doesn't mean it endorces them.

[@doomdoot6731]

@@krombopulos_michael The manga goes to show how a lot of ideologies and ideas can be twisted to be pretty damn nasty in the end. Trying to avoid spoilers here, we have multiple themes of Fascism, Heroism, Nationalism, Racism (a lot of racism, hooo boy), Fatalism, a hint of Anti-Natalism (even at the very end of the show), Nihilism to a degree, Militarism, Expansionism and more and more. Seriously, the 4th season of AoT would just be an absolute feast for this channel if they were to tackle every single theme touched upon in this show.

[@AnInsideJoke]

Not a bad analysis of anti-natalism...problem is that he's doing it on the final 1/3rd of this series, when he's never seen the previous 2/3rds. The Marlyans (which is spelled about 3 different ways depending on translation) want to wipe out the Eldians because THEY CAN TURN INTO GIANT CANNIBAL MONSTERS, and have nused this ability to commit subjugation, genocide, and many other attrocitiesf against Marleyans and several other peoples of the world several hundred years ago, not for "normal genocide reasons" (note, I'm not actually on Marley's side on this at all, just explaining their reasoning). The whole conflict is actually very complex and meant to mirror messy, morally-grey real-world politics in a fantastical way, so, not having the full background and information on how anti-natalism applies to this conflict really hurts the overall conclusion.

[@HoiDongCuu]

You got a wrong idea of Marlyan stand point. They never want to wipe out Eldians because of their Titan power, they want to exclusively exploit the Eldians to commit war crimes and other horrific acts of war. That's why they incorporate Eldians into their armies, and use their relatives to blackmail them. We basically saw how Marlyan armies committed genocide and war crimes in the very first episode of Season 4, they have no right to represent no one in the AOT's world.

[@randominternetweirdo5479]

Liu Bei gave a good answer to this question: "If you cease to exist, you can't redeem yourself"

[@TheDragiix3]

I think the roman view on suicide does as well, because it's considered "voluntary death" but the stoic philosophy argues that although suicide is not "morally" wrong, you need to stay alive in order to do good and hence should treasure the life you have been given.

[@theslyngl]

If you exist you can potentially redeem yourself but you could just as easily fail to do so. When you dont exist there's no need to redeem yourself. You're choosing not to play an absurd and unnecessary game.

[@TheDragiix3]

@@theslyngl I can't help but think that that is an incredibly shallow way of seeing things. That's equivalent of the joke "you can't be racist if there's no other races left but your own." Logically, yes I see the correlation, but that doesn't make it a valid approach. What is more absurd I wonder, taking chances, or giving up instantly? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, in my view choosing not to play this game of life means to instantly fail yourself instead of keeping the option of potential success open.

[@TheGms24]

A little late on the spoiler warning after mentioning the plan to sterilize everyone 😅

[@diamondsrubies1964]

Oh dear 😬

[@17trr23]

I think Zeke's argument falls apart when you take into context the rapid industrialization that is taking place in the show. The last Marley battle proved that titans aren't as effective against modern weapons. It could be argued now that since technology just beyond the horizon would make titans 'obsolete weapons', the continued persecution of the Eldian people should end thus ending their suffering. (in the context of Zeke's argument)

[@ezra190]

I agree with Zeke on this, his plan is very well thought out.

[@myrkr_]

it's thought out, but not the best option. all they have to do is cease the fighting and re-educate both sides. the marleyans just have to stop turning eldians into titans using spinal fluid, and the titan shifters which will be born (i remember reading somewhere that if a shifter doesn't pass on their power when they die, it's given to a new eldian at birth or random) just have to not use their abilities, or at least not in a way to harm people.

[@bengermin3104]

I think Zeke's plan was the most peaceful plan to end eldian and non eldian's suffering without genocide that Zeke could've thought of

[@bartimeas]

I mean, this would still be genocide, but that's not a bad thing

[@n.g.s1mple29]

The remaining eldians would have suffered from the rest of the world before their end.

[@uvindukulathunga3860]

@@n.g.s1mple29 Better than bringing children to share the pain

[@n.g.s1mple29]

@@uvindukulathunga3860 terrible take

[@gouhoh7906]

Thank you. I am glad that you clarified what modern Antinatalism is about, and pointed out the the major differences between Antinatalism and Zeke's plan. In fact the show doesn't brought up the term Antinatalism nor does it claim to represent an Antinatalist ideology. I think the author is aware of the distinction. It is just that the audience sometimes confuses Zeke's plan with what Antinatalists really advocates. Zeke's plan itself is definitely a kind of eugenics for Zeke wants to (i) force sterilizing people and (ii) limit to only a certain group of people. But I understand why people think Zeke represents Antinatalists, because what pushes Zeke to carry out his plan involves a humanitarian-antinatlist motivation rather than a fascist ideology. Note that Zeke concerns the sufferings of the future generation of the race that he wants to get rid of. Zeke wasn't a fascist because he did not think that the race "subjects of Ymir" is inferior (nor superior) to any other races. This non-judgemental approach about races is not only limited to area of biology or genetics, but also extends to morality and historical events. He doesn't care which side is more morally wrong in the history, but only concerns whether the innocent children now and in the possible future will suffer a lot for the history they are not responsible for (like how Zeke did in his childhood). Personally I totally understand how a character like Zeke can develop such an ideology. However, I have a major difficulty in giving full sympathy to Zeke due to the disparity between his actions and the motivation. In previous seasons the show portrayed Zeke as a cold murderer who enjoyed massacring groups of people. He inflicted unnecessary fear and suffering when he killed some soldiers, mocked them at their gruesome death for something they are not responsible for. I mean, how could a person who really concerns about human sufferings kill people as sports and torture people for fun? In terms of dramatic storytelling, perhaps the Author felt the need to introduce beast titan as some horrible monstrosity and behind-the-scene boss, but it damages a consistent character building of Zeke.

[@originalgangsterloc]

facts bro zeke cares about eldians but is throwing rocks and telling mindless titans they can "go now " and directing them to eat and rip a human apart but i do think he's more concerned about the "future" eldians then on ones that have already grown up lived their lives and determined for a future

[@khaimag8528]

Zeke case is morally acceptable bcus it's not just to save his people from suffering, but also to end titan's power so the world doesn't need to suffer by it anymore. It's actually the best option.

[@StaticFears]

Zeke’s plan comparing to Eren’s real plan is definitely a lot more peaceful

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Should we cease to exist? Only Ymir knows 😉

[@tacobread3]

To be real if I had any super power… it would be the power to warp and manipulate reality. Then I’d wipe everything from reality. Even reality it’s self. No pain, no worries, no fear, no life, no death. Nothing anymore. Beautiful.

[@velkewemaster]

oh man, i can't wait for Wisecrack to analyze the "rumbling" route.

[@StelleHonig]

If you're using the subbed version, please keep it fullscreen when we need to read the subtitles. Watching on a phone makes it very hard to see the translation :(

[@emanuelepilan8029]

That was amazing man. I really enjoyed all the analysis you made. Your style is also relaxing, you can explain not very simple concepts in a way that not make the viewers bored or confused. Good job

[@ginnypotter54]

if you're going to use the subbed version of anime's in the future, please make the screen bigger so we can more easily read it!

[@rosecity_chris]

I was an antinatalist before I knew what antinatalism was.

[@evilmatt6465]

There is no way you actually thought ARMIN of all people was not lying in that scene bro😭

[@Sindycate1]

My crush slapped me when I told her I wish she hadn't been born

[@alexanderkorol677]

what...? Is there a joke I'm not getting here?

[@gsahara8405]

@@alexanderkorol677 lol rewatch minute 3:25

[@alexanderkorol677]

@@gsahara8405 oh, so it doesn't have to exclusively be a card then.

[@gsahara8405]

@@alexanderkorol677 I just wish more people do it, card or not 😂

[@yigithan.kilinc]

Zeke had the best plan out of all characters in the show/manga.

[@devaxionrl8189]

Logical. Kill your own kin. Yes. Yes. Greatest plan that solves it all.

[@yigithan.kilinc]

@@devaxionrl8189 Well, if my race had the ability to turn into 60 meter walking nukes without their consent, I'd gladly agree to sterilize them. Besides, what's your alternative?

[@emmanuelperez1516]

@@devaxionrl8189 It did make the most sense, he would be preventing the suffering of any future people, he would also get pay back at Marley since without titans they would be screwed. Im pretty sure Eren even said his plan made the most sense but he wouldn't accept it because he didnt like it

[@mrsovietico5262]

@@yigithan.kilinc What I would do ? I would take away your ability to transform into these monsters with the power of the coordinate. without the need to kill or sterilize them, the zeke plan is a failure from the start. all he wanted to do was vent his anger on the eldians while he was deceiving himself as a hero.

[@yigithan.kilinc]

@@mrsovietico5262 Well, I don't know if you finished the manga or not but... Spoilers below . . . . . . . . . you can't just use the coordinate/founding titan to erase the titan curse. Ymir has to be convinced in order to lift the curse, which requires a very specific method. So no, you can't just wish to erase titan powers. . . . . . . . . . Spoilers above

[@sauravrao234]

If you succeed in destroying the world you only make the world a smaller place but the conflict remains. - kiyomi azumabito

[@helarymedina3139]

I've never seen Wisecrack talk about One Piece, one of the most influential and popular anime of all time. They could talk about the politics or historical references in the series. They could also talk about Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which is a space opera with war and political drama.

[@ReptartheSmash]

Can you imagine if you had never seen One Piece, and one day your boss says "Hey, we need to do a One Piece video, so can you go ahead and watch the whole show?"

[@SinHurr]

@@ReptartheSmash Even in my younger days of binge watching, I think it would have taken me a long, long goddamned time to watch OP. And that's even assuming I skip any filler (I assume all serialized, non-stop production shows have tons of it though I admit I do not know for sure).

[@RedRaikou]

I never even heard the term "Anti-Natalism" before but guess what? I support it 100% for environmental reasons.

[@SonTaicario]

Honestly I'd just rather have a Full on rumbling, it's way better for the environment

[@RedRaikou]

@@SonTaicario In a way, yes.

[@rpg500e]

A Chet Haze reference; Truly a gentleman and philosopher.

[@tausette3595]

So, did you guys watch the entire show or just the last season? Cause the story builds on itself season over season and there is probably more that can be gleaned from it as a whole than just one season.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Just starting but from the sounds of it, Michal here hasn't but others have, so he's being a mouth piece for the people in the back who have seen it.

[@TubemastaC]

Granted the euthanasia plan is only in season 4. You can get the full contract for it through season 4 alone. Not all of Zeke’d motivations, but you understand the philosophy aspects. I think Michael had seen the show fully based on how he talks about the suffering and how characters just keep lying.

[@goodie2shoes874]

Just makes me appreciate the show even more

[@thedabisme61]

Armin basically: You may have outsmarted me, but I have outsmarted your outsmarting!

[@growingoaks]

i personally dont wanna cause suffering on another being so that's part of why i dont want to have a kid. i'll have to watch this some more cuz this philosophical aspect makes me curious

[@umayr2935]

This video introduced me to the term "antinatalism" and i realized that i had already been believing in a lot of things that antinatalists say. Its just that i didn't know there is already a term and a camp thinking the same

[@tobza6154]

13:21 he described aot perfectly

[@yosiamanurun9016]

I learn that to assess the accuracy of a logic, it need to be put in some contexts by which that logic is drawn. We cant immediately apply a logic from a story to our world. They just have different problems and different stories.

[@shparto1118]

Zeke: "Titans bad, euthanize eldians to stop titants" Guy in the video: "Zeke wants Eldians euthanized because they suffer in the zone" Me: *What*