Wizards Takes Over the Commander RC | MTGGoldfish Podcast

[@damienjohnson3450]

It didn't even make it a year after Sheldon's death. Sad news.

[@MTGGoldfishPodcast]

The mess of the past week has given me a new respect for how hard Sheldon's job was and how well he did at it.

[@adoo765]

All because the cowards on RC couldnt take the rage of some sissy nerds.

[@servalkorion686]

Sheldon was the RC without him the ship can’t sail

[@passalapasa]

@@MTGGoldfishPodcast just not banning mana cript

[@AllstateManlove]

​@MTGGoldfishPodcast its hard to ignore how well he held it together. I'm sure everyone there is competent, but it was definitely his final word that kept them quiet for so long, for better or worse.

[@breadstyx]

Richard a modern player having trust in wotc is wild.

[@motocynic]

Seriously.

[@coltinyancey6420]

Richard consistently has the wildly worst takes.

[@chrisanderson6353]

I'm not a fan of Richard and this is my first time watching the channel. He irks me. And I get the sense he doesn't play commander

[@OddMidnight]

@@chrisanderson6353 Richard plays as a Devil's Advocate to introduce diverging opinions to make his podcasts more interesting.

[@Priceeric2]

Gotta drive the algorithm somehow ​@@coltinyancey6420

[@STS-qi1qy]

'Trusted WotC for thirty years....' - Can't say I relate to *that* thought. Reserve list, Pinkertons, etc. etc.

[@TheEvolver311]

That would be almost 3 decades apart lol WotC has been well liked most of its history by players

[@gustavochiriboga7667]

​@@TheEvolver311 There has been plenty of controversies with wotc, and don't forget they almost killed standard a few times with the fire phylosophy, draft as well with the changes to booster packs and price increases, etc, etc, it hasn't only been a recent thing

[@IIDX]

Been playing since 98’. WOTC and the players always turned the page.

[@efuii]

​​@@TheEvolver311people trusted WotC back then. Now, they're no more. Only Hasbro remains.

[@TheEvolver311]

@@efuii WotC tried to talk to the community for years about why they didn't want to produce products directly into Modern. The players cried for the product to be made. The myth of evil wizard doing this and that is seriously a rewriting of history.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

Yay. Can't wait for the day we finally get a Lotus Crypt and a Nadu, Winged Extortionist.

[@slaughtermelon7737]

I'm down for this.

[@chrisbenson6753]

That only gets printed in a master product every 3-5 years.

[@RibusPQR]

Richard: I want WotC to control the format. WotC: we're gonna introduce tiers of power. Seth: do you think this could work? Richard: you're giving WotC way too much credit.

[@HeyApples]

"Wizards will handle proper curation of the Commander format, they know what they're doing." 20 minutes later... "THE ONE RING IN 50% OF MODERN DECKS".

[@FelixxAlrick]

Richard, around 13:20 the point you bring up about hasbro- consider the change that's occurred over time is hasbro's increasingly struggling toy sales (among almost everything else) leading them to rely more and more on one of their only 'good' products (mtg).

[@Flip4Crypt]

I was going to say the same thing, they mention that commander is "the cash cow" but don't acknowledge that Hasbro must have more interest in it with it being the most lucrative thing Hasbro has

[@erysecret]

+1

[@drkatz1192]

RICHARD - Please read this comment, and GET SMARTER. You are wrong.

[@NikoWasTakenBruh]

Hasbro needs to always be considered. Wasn't it just last year that Wizards had layoffs, despite being one of the only properties under Hasbro that was hitting profits

[@jlbrooks74]

This

[@RyanEglitis]

Seth: WOTC is gonna put out a website that just takes your deck and spits out a number WOTC: we're releasing a life tracker app. It will be ready to use in 8 years.

[@Volkbrecht]

WotC don't need to do that. Once they have compiled a tier list of cards, it will be a matter of weeks until that information is added to sites like scryfall and EDHREC.

[@SoFishtry]

Incredibly disappointing to see a community organization absorbed by a corporation, especially at the impetus of mass harassment. Really awful week.

[@SurlyDuff814]

I sure do enjoy watching corporations assimilate everything community driven because humans are incapable of being decent to each other.

[@fjsfi3jr983]

It's not from harassment though, RC can smokescreen and post their feels all they want. The fact is poll after poll shows half the community hated the way this was done and didn't trust them anymore. CAG came right out and said RC didn't trust them and CAG was falling apart over it. CEDH was talking about breaking away, half the casuals were talking about ignoring RC from now on. RC wanted to operate in secret with no input from community and no input from even within the RC itself, and just hand down random deranged edicts from the ivory tower. It died because it was tearing the format apart worse than any banned card ever dreamed of, the one and only question was just whether wotc would formalize the format or let it fade back into a pure kitchen table format. It was never in question that the way RC wanted to operate was unviable.

[@adoo765]

And its still fucking monday

[@evergreen2881]

@@fjsfi3jr983 They banned for the health of the format. The only reason anyone is mad is that certain players treated their hobby as an investment, which is their own mistake.

[@bulbasaurappreciator]

​@@fjsfi3jr983So true bestie, you know who I trust not to make unaccountable decisions and to properly manage a format with their direct printings, it's Wizards of the Coast of course.

[@Durgenheim]

Giving control of the format to the entity that recently gave us (now banned) cards such as dockside extortionist, jeweled lotus, Nadu, and hullbreacher? What could go wrong!

[@Optimator7]

This ^

[@nodekapunk]

I mean… 3 banned cards in how many years? Not really that bad

[@danwilson9522]

Also none of these cards should be banned. Should just be rule 0ed

[@williamhager855]

@@nodekapunkexcept the financial damage to a shit ton of players. And for the record I’m not one of them.

[@nodekapunk]

@@williamhager855 I am one of them, and I’m against the bans. Really only nadu was the problem.

[@Target008]

I get the RCs decision. This is just a game and death threats to my family aren't worth a game that I get $0 for. As for my faith in wizards 🙏 get ready for a lot more hull breachers and nadus. Wizards will monetize this into the ground. Time for a new format called boomander if it didnt go through a standard its not legal.

[@xardas149]

???? Rc could not and did not achieve anything to prevent lotus, hullbrescher etc. Nothing is gonna changebecause the rc was entirely powerless

[@Dom9606]

RC did nothing for years bro as wotc printed jewelled lotus, dockside, one ring etc. like their entire thing was saying 'no changes' for the longest time

[@BigMikePlays]

The RC dishonored Sheldon's Legacy and acted like cowards instead of standing on business. No respect.

[@rowankeltizar5961]

​@@BigMikePlaysare you willing to die for a card game? Plus... They really did have zero power to change anything. Commander is too big, too much money.

[@gregorycafiero9688]

There's also plenty RC was able to stop being the voice in the room, people are just so naive they saw the lack of bannings as doing nothing. Nobody who knew Sheldon, Olivia, or Jim, or the others thought they were doing nothing, and now dipshits have chased them off, and The only people now in the design space are beholden to profit, not the player base.

[@brendans1983]

Everyone realises there will be a cEDH in every tier, right?

[@Alkhemia8]

ofc since the nature of CEDH is just being the most optimal so even tier 1 you can still build the most competitive version of a Tier 1 deck

[@taylorarnold880]

Exactly. Every category will have a top deck or strategy. Subdivision with hard lines does not help.

[@RonDollete]

100%. cEDH is a mindset, not a ruleset.

[@glennewhall]

The short answer is that yes there will always be a way to optimize a deck given any set of constraints. This system gives stores and larger scale events some way to try and balance out commander tables without a 15 minute conversation. Put yourself in the mindset of a store running a commander FNM. the 4 tier (honestly 4 banlists really) system at least gives you some tools to make sure the games are closer in power level than the current 1-10 scale with no real guidance other than vibes. Here is the teir 1 pod, here is the teir 3 pod. No, you jerk, you can't go to the tier 1 pod and pubstomp with a deck full of fast mana. as always, none of this matters in regular playgroups where people are friends and are comfortable talking to each other. rule 0 will still exist, the banlist is made up, and no one will police what you are playing in your home games.

[@D3STROYERTV]

lotus crypt is back!

[@controlBreak]

Last week's podcasts: This ban didn't go far enough to meet its goals! Just hitting signposts leads to banlist inconsistency. This week, at 20:48, Richard proposing that this tier list is a good thing. They'll probably just choose signpost cards, so you'll know your deck is a 4 if you run a card that looks like Armageddon.

[@justinreschke3642]

Huge W for WOTC and Hasbro shareholders.

[@platinumangel7446]

Not necessarily. Cooperations can make many mistakes and if they do imagine how bad it will be if they mess up commander.

[@adoo765]

Not if, when

[@adoo765]

@platinumangel7446 sure, let the format in hands of the company that made 1000$ proxys, or premium product with soon to be banned cards, or ruin 60 card formats… sure this will be great

[@noahfriedrich4686]

Wizards already made bank off of Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Dockside. The people who lost are the players and collectors, why should Wizards get to make money and the collectors cannot?

[@Martin-qb2mw]

It's not. Making decisions that damage the game long-term is not good for the bottom line.

[@therealkami]

If cEDH players want to play the best the format can offer, it will always be with the ban list. Restriction breeds creativity. If they're restricted from the most powerful cards, they have to work harder for a win, that's what good competition is.

[@zotmaster]

Imagine if you told someone that just a year ago that WotC was breaking promises, lying, and trying to strong-arm creators and companies alike out of their own work...and now in the present day, harassment and death threats led to the community voluntarily giving up control of the most popular format of the most popular collectible card game to that same company. It's absolutely wild. If anything should have been learned from the OGL controversy, it's that WotC should be trusted with absolutely nothing.

[@donb7519]

Don't forget the pinkerton stuff

[@Mutch-hl7jy]

I have still believe WOTC was involved from the start of the whole shit show , they were in control from the start. Noone can convince me otherwise. The RC was the messenger , WOTC had this all planned and put the RC in a corner with it.

[@zotmaster]

@@donb7519 I didn't. That's just icing on the crap sundae. While the Pinkerton stuff is profoundly messed up, the OGL really made clear the contempt WotC has for their own customers.

[@TheEvolver311]

@zotmaster OGL was result of WotC trying to actually monetize D&D, Magic players have subsidized D&D for over 20 years now.

[@zotmaster]

@@TheEvolver311 That is a grossly over-simplified version of the truth. Yes, they wanted to actually monetize D&D beyond where it currently is, but there are ways to monetize a product that are considerably less scummy than lying about promises that you previously made (we won't change the agreement: it's pointless because you could just ignore it! Trust us!), trying to strong-arm people out of their own work, lying about it, coming up with a new agreement that flat-out takes their own work, and then lying about that. You could generate some quick revenue by breaking into my house and stealing my stuff, but it's not something I'm going to praise you for. Also, to your point about D&D being subsidized by Magic: you could say that about just about everything in Hasbro's portfolio...

[@michaelmattox5454]

Richard, while Hasbro has owned WotC for quite some time, it wasn’t until Hasbro leaned on WotC and demanded they double, then triple their profits that you started seeing the Hasbro hate from the community. And look at what has been done to accommodate this: break-neck pacing of new product releases, large price increases, making the Secret Lair product and cutting out LGS’s, printing super pushed cards as chase cards and keeping them artificially rare for reprint equity, the death of the draft booster, and so on and so on. The “Papa Hasbro” comments are pretty justified IMO.

[@TheDoubleMinority]

I think that commander has honestly grown a bit bigger than the RC can reasonably manage. Their issue was not updating the banlist enough IMO. It’s been the biggest format since I started playing 7 years ago and the only ban was Iona with a few cards taken off? I hate that it has came to this but I feel they could’ve set a precedent to avoid this. With that being considered, even the recent ban update, not informing the advisory committee was a big miss to me. Still, I agree with Seth, the biggest format being controlled by the company that prints and designs the cards is only going to lead to more drama.

[@jacobalbert2603]

You think that WotC will ban more often...that's hilarious

[@BloodMoonGo]

Not only drama, but our format staples will be pushed out every couple years. Our Trouble In Pairs will be pushed out by the next card draw enchantment etc

[@Welverin]

@@jacobalbert2603 How did you get that out of what they said?

[@jacobalbert2603]

@@Welverin Their issue was not updating the ban list enough IMO....your words

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@jacobalbert2603 They did say that. They didn't say that WotC would be better about it. Rather, it was implied that the RC could have done better in the past, by springing into action earlier.

[@SC2Anski]

I feel like every category here can be "cEDH". It is fun to brew with limits. It's fun to see how far you can take your "my dudes are smiling" deck. It will be just as fun or more to try and maximise your bracket 2 deck to be as good as possible with the limits of bracket 2. You want your bracket 2/3 deck to be able to "compete" against other 2/3 decks. I don't think many people intentionally make "bad" decks. It is much more fun to build a deck to be powerful within allowed ruleset. Now you can target your ruleset to a spesific bracket.

[@El_Chico_des_Galos]

Giving Wizards of the Coast authority over bans in a non-rotating format is like giving a drug dealer the authority to make drugs illegal.

[@IslarfPokemon]

Is that what Konami does?

[@RaptieFeathers]

... Are Commander players _seriously_ this unaware that there are other formats? Y'all are due a wakeup call

[@tuubi2783]

@@RaptieFeathers you mean the other formats that are in ruins for months at a time because wotc doesnt want to ban obvious power outliers to sell more product?

[@ricflair8907]

The best part is they have no authority, they're your f'n cards.

[@ricflair8907]

@@RaptieFeathers commander players are the bottom feeders of the planet, not just magic

[@Domklotz]

25:55 It’s also exclusively 1 vs 1 on arena. Deck building strategies are different if you’re going for the kill in a 1v1 match, vs having to float yourself in a game with 3 others looking at your battleships.

[@HyperBeam17]

I’m skeptical how much WotC will genuinely have players’ interests in mind when taking over the format. I’m not saying they’re going to intentionally ruin it or something, but I have a hard time believing that profits won’t at least be somewhat in the back of the minds of every decision they make. I know they’re human and everyone makes mistakes, but the Nadu situation in Modern really causes a lot of doubts regarding how objective they can be about the health of a format. Say what you want about the RC and people can tin foil hat conspiracy theories all day long if that makes your cope feel better, but the RC truly did care about making Commander the best it could. Is the format bigger than something a handful of community members can reasonably take on? Sure, that’s fair. But we cannot pretend notions like quantifying Rule Zero is the direction EDH needs to go.

[@Jlizard27]

As Wotc/Hasbro unfortunately has a legal obligation to their shareholders to increase profits, I don’t think it’s conspiratorial at all to say that the players’ best interests come second, if that high. It’s nice to corporations when good reputations and high profitability align, but *very* few corporations would choose a good reputation over maximized profits.

[@geoffnaggie961]

You do realize its a casual format right?

[@xardas149]

They had Zero real influence lmao. What does it mstter what rc intentions were. Wotc forced through stuff like jeweled lotus anyways. Rc did nothing ever that would annoy wotc before last week, so nohing is gonna change

[@HyperBeam17]

@@Jlizard27 Yeah totally, didn’t mean to imply it’s a wild take to think WotC’s perspective on the format won’t be different than the previous RC’s due to the former’s financial motivations. I’m just skeptical on whether or not that’s going to lead to an actual better EDH just because “hmm well, Commander grew bigger than the RC so WotC it’s good that they stepped in”. Like Seth mentioned on this episode, the grass isn’t always greener. I’m picking on the Nadu situation on Modern a bit, but that really is a recent example of how WotC will purposely delay action to what is objectively the best move (i.e. don’t wait to ban it) for the health and happiness of a format in favor of maximizing MH3 sales - which had the opposite intended effect of “player confidence”.

[@HyperBeam17]

@@geoffnaggie961 I think last week has proven the definition of how “casual” EDH is varies wildly based on who you’re asking. Ideally, yes, it’s a “casual” format. That’s how it’s was created, and that’s why the community ran it for so long. But I’m sure I don’t need to quote you comments on KZbin, Twitter, Reddit, and various other forums where what is right vs wrong on how EDH is handled goes beyond just some carefree game mode where people and friends can play silly janky decks. And don’t get me wrong - I’m not trying to defend the people who used EDH as some financial investment portfolio. I’m just saying it’s a bit of an oversimplification to boil down Commander as just “a casual format” in 2024.

[@TedMattos]

It may just be me, but by having WOTC take over the RC's role, it's reducing (removing) any checks and balance. The company making the product will also be the entity deciding which of their product(s), if any, will be banned/allowed. Seems like a recipe for a problematic future.

[@Lazydino59]

Exactly, it’s the writing on the wall that this format’s expiration date has been pulled in greatly. The government and the economy are now the same entity

[@RyanEglitis]

That's how literally every other format is run. Which of those do you have huge issues with? Do you really believe an RC would be handling any of those formats significantly better?

[@RaptieFeathers]

I... Pardon? I am unable to tell if this is serious or not. I honestly hope this is being said in jest

[@toedrag-release]

​@@RyanEglitisThe formats wizards is in control of are competitive formats, standard,modern it's all competitive magic and the health of those formats are horrendous.

[@gabecastillo1634]

The fact that people believe there was any check and balance in the first place is so absurd lol if the rc overstepped at all like they did with the recent bans they would’ve been absorbed a while ago

[@DontBeALlama]

I'm an intern at WotC... Changing the rating after watching this video: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Panharmonicon a 4 Dowsing dagger a 4 All Kaldra pieces a 4 All Counterspells a 4

[@zacharia4061]

26:00 its 4 seth idk what your smoking, unconditional tutors just make your deck better, the promblem you should focus on is the jank decks that use high power cards to balance the deck to normal quality but at my lgs im the only one who does that so i am so down to take out the generic good stuff if i know my opponents will also.

[@TheGrantross]

Love him and his insane hot takes but when it comes to topics like this you can always tell that Richard is management. Big boss energy

[@halint1830]

*WotC hearing Secret Lair: Unbanned* Write that down. WRITE THAT DOWN!

[@Hateneken]

With shitty Ai art and totally unreadable text and then all the Commander ban list in yellow border and a middle finger in the back in packs for $500 a piece 🤣

[@pippochiri4547]

​@@Hatenekenwhat ai art?

[@RavnArmanson]

the arguement that the 1-10 scale is a part of rule zero is disingenuous. That is not a rule zero conversation, the scale starts at 5 with people playing jank or theme decks, anything below that is gen 1 precons of piles of cards that dont work, and 9 and 10 are cedh. Of course everyone says they play a 7 cause 7 just means "I actually put effort into making a commander deck"

[@ShadowWalker-ng1it]

I legit had a table were I loaned my precon with better lands and a few more removal spells to a new player for the game guessed it was a 6 and the deck was the archenemy

[@OlgaZuccati]

@@ShadowWalker-ng1it better lands can make or break a deck, if your deck had a bunch of dual lands/fetch lands that enter untapped or high value utility lands your deck will already have a ridiculous speed advantage

[@ShadowWalker-ng1it]

@@OlgaZuccati by better lands it was the replace 2 lands by pain lands and 2 fast lands not exactly tier 1 lands

[@_narcosis]

WotC is a Ubisoft / EA tier company and the only redeeming quality of Commander was independent stewardship. What WotC has done to Modern, Standard, and DnD over the last few years is coming to Commander now.

[@alexandersedore7720]

Cries in DnD changes and modern effectively being expensive standard, but I actively like their standard changes and have seen way more interest at my LGS for standard events

[@TheEvolver311]

Players pushed WotC to get direct to Modern sets WotC pushed against the idea for years. Standard has been pretty good for awhile now. They have to find a way to monetize D&D it's been subsidized by Magic for decades now

[@devinkerr5474]

More commenting to push home that WOTC is worth almost 2x Ubisoft, because they are Hasbro, so WOTC isn't just Ubisoft-tier, it's worse

[@Perigrene101]

They can still ban cards, but the article said they wouldn't make changes in the evaluation period. Banning is still very much on the table.

[@ghoulofmetal]

And unbannings

[@sabersaurus7018]

We can't let the terrorists win, no unbans for a few years. Sending death threats to get your way is not okay.

[@kaemonbonet4931]

Crim: "red hasn't been good since hazoret" Embercleave: "am I a joke to you?"

[@TheEvolver311]

And Embercleave was printed 5 years ago, it's still been a minute

[@kaemonbonet4931]

@@TheEvolver311 I think the only time it wasn't really good was in DND. They had a goblin deck but it was all meme. I think every other standard had a menace rdw

[@CyberNewType]

This was a great discussion with these guys. A PERFECT example of disagreeing on some things and still getting along. Love it!

[@ggflowen]

I totally agree with Crim about being able to tap the sign. Regardless if you agree with what tier cards are in it gives us the tools to communicate what level cards we run and call people out if they claim a specific tier to pub stomp and then drop a T4 card.

[@jamesc.7216]

cEDH shouldn't be considered in the tiers just to avoid confusion, and if a precon is tier 1 then they are essentially the same as ranks 7-10 in the old scale.

[@robboomsma6739]

Thanks for the quick response to the news! Enjoying the bonus content

[@patches.742]

Yea this is going to be what i watch with my morning coffee tomorrow morning

[@maxleveladventures]

I do not think Vampiric is anything but a 4 (competitive). The card itself does not necessarily power up every deck, but it’s about intent. If you’re playing tutors, to me, that is fundamentally not casual or in the spirit of a singleton format because it’s basically a copy of any card in your deck. So, yes, I do agree that people are putting tutors in their “casual” decks, but I personally don’t think tutors are casual or in the spirit of the format. If you’re playing tutors, you’re trying hard… But, I totally acknowledge that I’m just one person and this is my opinion.

[@billjensen51]

ranking cards is challenging because a card in two different decks can go from a bad card to a good one

[@MrMartinSchou]

> "They're just not going to touch this ever again and rely on Rule Zero." In other news, the next Horizon set will contain Jeweled Emerald, Jeweled Jet, Jeweled Pearl, Jeweled Ruby, and Jeweled Sapphire, that tap for two coloured mana in their identity but the mana can only be used to cast your commander. They'll be printed in the new super mythic rarity slot, where there'll only be one of any of them in every 12 collector edition boxes.

[@alexalvaradocali3863]

Its going to be like yugioh, they saw Konami with the big money and their superb pay pigs and WoTC wants a piece of the action too

[@pippochiri4547]

What stopped them from printing those in any other set?

[@MrMartinSchou]

@@pippochiri4547 People whining that their expensive cards would drop in value - what else. But now they get the excuse of "can't let the terrorists win AGAIN, so we're doing this."

[@comlitbeta7532]

​@@alexalvaradocali3863 You mean reprinting evey cards all the time driving the price of even the good card down and only keeping up the price for the special prints art variant and foil ? Ill be down for that, the whale get their shining cardboard the rest of us get the cool toys, everyone wins

[@alexalvaradocali3863]

@@comlitbeta7532 You are thinking of pokemon tcg, do you play yugioh?

[@drkatz1192]

Richard @ 30:00 - Seems extremely short sighted to think that people will enjoy continuous power creep. The game will die with that kind of attitude. We DO NOT trust in Hasbro. Please try to be smart!

[@adoo765]

"Please try to be smart!" Who, Richard?!

[@abdo19code]

People love to use the phrase "power creep" improperly. Did we forget the most broken card in the game was printed in it's very first set? This past Friday I played a deck from 2009 Standard (Jund midrange) against a 2024 meta Dimir Mirktide deck and stomped him... "Power creep" isn't a real thing. There have been game breaking cards sprinkled all throughout Magic's entire history. That's what bans are for.

[@dud_studley]

​@@abdo19code You're trying to use Black Lotus and cards that have been banned over time as evidence that power creep doesn't exist? Either this is rage bait, or you fundamentally do not understand how card games are designed.

[@OddMidnight]

@@abdo19code But did you stomp multiple other players playing murktide consistently over a multitude of games? That's what power creep is in a game that relies on variance.

[@TheEvolver311]

The game has to have power creep to continue to grow. Future game design shouldn't be shackled to the past.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

1. Richard is completely correct, WOTC is using a "Crisis" to grab up control of their most popular format, and frankly I am not all that sad. I hung out in the Rules Committee discord for a couple of weeks and sadly it was one of the worst experiences I had in magic. 2. Seth thinking for a second that WOTC could set up a Website to tell you what "Tier" your deck is..might be the most wildly optimistic thing I have ever heard the poor lad say. Gatherer has been broken for years, WOTC outright did not deliver on features for the DnD Insider subscription, Arena still doesn't have a spectator mode. 3. Does anyone find the simultaneous thought processes of "THE COMMUNITY IS SO TOXIC THE RC QUIT" and "We will permanently enshrine Rule Zero because the community will politely follow non-written rules" happening at the same time to be absolutely hilarious?

[@nicolivoldkif9096]

On three, yep, that is why rule zero is absolutely stupid. Either rule zero works, and you need no ban list, or players can't agree and you need to have a comprehensive ban list that is consistently adjusted.

[@connor6822]

Nadu didn’t even make the thumbnail lol

[@AstoranSolaire]

The bird man is unwelcome everywhere, even in thumbnails.

[@jamescalvert4471]

They say a good critic is one with strong opinions. If you find someone you vehemently disagree with on every movie, their review is still a good way to tell if you'd like a movie. This is Richard's role to me, and I respect that.

[@nathand6467]

20:22 - I have seen this comment before, and just stop and think about it. Most cards are going to be a "1" - or effectively no score. The 4, 3, and 2, lists will probably all have 50-150 cards on them, but you don't need to give "Tundra Wolves" a score, its a 1. It doesn't have to be sign posts, I think they will rate "every" card,.. but that means rating 200-400 cards.

[@Matteo_Consiglio]

I think the brackets idea is fantastic! It will be clunky initially, but many other games already run on a similar system!

[@trancet]

EDH is gonna be Can-lander with extra steps

[@geegnomes]

I was thinking Canlander but with less thought put into it

[@damiend.7392]

Seth is always the most rational when it comes to these topics. Strong arguments! My favorite gold fish!!! 🎉🎉🎉

[@noahfriedrich4686]

The Wizards takeover, safety concerns aside, was the way to go. RC prioritizes maintaining a game that they consider to be "fun" but in spite of their inactivity, commander grew to be the most popular format by a longshot. Because commander is singleton 100 cards, there will never be a best deck (besides cEDH, different matter). This situation was not like WotC banning Grief to revive the meta legacy. Commander wasn't losing variety because of these cards, it was an *opinion* that banned these cards. Commander bans for health and RC bans for their perspective of a "good" game; five or ten people shouldn't have that power over millions of players.

[@chrisperrell2843]

Seth's comment 24:04 that his bracket 4 ancient tomb in a deck of bracket 2 will get stomped by a deck of bracket 4 is more a comment on deck building philosophy - why are you putting an ancient tomb in a low / mid power deck? Im not saying it's correct, but when I build a deck, I build to a certain power level, i dont stick in a few high power cards to help it work, doing so makes the deck really swingy; one time when you draw the power it goes off and when you dont it durdles. That doesnt make it fun for you or your opponents to be so polarised.

[@knixx7047]

4 new cEDH formats is what happens. Tier 1 cEDH is going to be poppin', similar to Pauper mindset.

[@DanielCotillo]

Casuals should just shut their mouths and keep policing their kitchen tables, just like every other format they wish to play.

[@isambo400]

This seems like the answer to me. More official formats. Each with its own quirks, no need to argue about cards before games.

[@tbclabamba8051]

​@@DanielCotilloyou guys always forget that a big amount of players plays at friday night magic or changing playgroups. For those scenarios it is necessary to ban cards that are way too strong

[@Sestze]

@@DanielCotillo If you truly are trying to be a competitive EDH player and can't handle bans happening to cards in your format, I think you're just looking for Mario Party Legacy. Should just play rule 0-less formats if you can't handle a conversation that might kick you out of the pod.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@DanielCotillo I can't help but feel like you are missing the key ideological difference between EDH and all other formats, namely that EDH _was fundamentally intended as a casual format._ If anything, cimpetitive players should take a step back and sit down. They are not the Main audience this format was intended for. If you want your own EDH-like format, create it.

[@maxwell4322]

If there is anything I learned about corporations is that - they have a tendency to shoot their own product in the foot. Happens all the time. What i like about commander is that I can use just about any and all cards in my collection. And I'm 100% positive that's why it's so popular. You don't really have to worry about rotation or having a deck that ends. and OFC like a corporation. They just don't get it. Implementing brackets that intentionally stop you from using all your cards because you have to worry about where your deck will end up - will effectively kill what makes commander so great. If i wanted to limited. I would just play pioneer or standard. This is 100% the wrong move

[@cloudroth6]

Its worth noting the bracket system was in works before this with the RC.

[@Rakkoonn]

Yeah, I thought that was obvious since they talked about new tools for rule 0 conversations in the ban announcement, but it seems like most already forgot.

[@CSDragon]

26:30 Vamp Tutor is one of those cards that is absolutely a 4. To the point where if you have one in your deck it's one of those "no really guys I promise I won't tutor for an infinite combo" cards Its popularity is a holdover from 2013 era Commander. But over time people who enjoy "power 7" commander have removed them from their decks to have a better all around experience.

[@matthewrose8002]

Vamp tutor can be played in a deck that is level 1. The problem is to have it be low power you really have to slim down the win cons in the deck. Vamp tutor to go get my hill giant win cons of getting more hill giants until I overrun you isn't broken. It would be a horrible deck and lose to pretty much all precons even with Vamp tutor in the deck and playing vamp tutor turn 1.

[@CSDragon]

@@matthewrose8002 Any power 4 card _can_ be played in a deck that is power 1 if you externally limit how the card can be used. Which is why I think the level system works really well alongside pregame discussion. You can have an all-1 deck with a vamp tutor and then in the pre-game discussion say "Hey, this deck is all power 1, but it has a vamp tutor which is power 4, can I still play it in this power 1 game. And your playgroup will probably be cool with that.

[@sabersaurus7018]

Crim is so right, just take out the one card thats a 4, its a signal that you shouldnt play those cards. Seth is pre judging this.

[@midnightmonty]

Seth, just because you play a vampiric tutor in a casual deck doesn't make it a casual card. It's $30+ for a reason.

[@stevendefeo8424]

Commander is no longer a casual format. We had assholes playing those 4 cards in all power level of decks and look how butt hurt they got over the bannings. Maybe now after the bans, commander will become casual again

[@neildoscher9536]

Just here to say vampiric tutor is unquestionably a 4. It's a 100 card Singleton format a card that says get whatever you want is absolutely busted. The fact that Seth doesn't think about it as a big deal isn't evidence it shouldn't be a four, just evidence that we can't avoid rule 0

[@MarsBarszs]

I don’t think we trusted WOTC for 30 years, they just made the game and we couldn’t not go with them. I trusted them to a degree before hasbro took over. Sure they might try to make it fun, but they will definitely be $ first going forward.

[@PaulSzkibik]

My guy, if you're still playing magic after 25 years and didn't quit after like... Onslaught and don't exclusively play old border cards, why are you talking about having "no trust"? You're here and playing the game after nearly three decades of hasbro taking over. How bad could it be that you didn't "trust them" for that long but are somehow still here? How are you NOW thinking they'll be different? They'll still be greedy but they'll also still be releasing card board crack because they're good at it. They've been $ first since... forever and it worked for them. And somehow commander is still an insanely popular format and most of it is because WotC keeps printing new cool cards into the format. Commander isn't thriving because the Rules Committee maintained a weirdly hands off banned list of like 50 cards out of tens of thousands of cards and a "rule zero" paradigm for years. What the rules committee did or didn't do barely mattered for 99% of the edh players. What mattered was printing fun cards and that happened. Is WotC under hasbro greedy AF? Yes. Did they do massive design mistakes? Yes. Is magic thriving anyway? Also yes.

[@MarsBarszs]

@@PaulSzkibik sort of my point. I trust them so far as to keep the game going. Not to do what's "best" for the game. There is more to "living" that just being alive. I don't trust them to care about that. We are in this situation because of a cash grab and because the RC (after way too long) made a change for the health of the format... after outcry from the community to do something.

[@PaulSzkibik]

@@MarsBarszs fair enough!

[@wowomah6194]

Guess what sells like hot fucking pancakes? Fun. Literally COUNTLESS REALLY FUCKING FUN AND AFFORDABLE CARDS HAVE COME OUT IN THE PAST 2 YEARS. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

[@MarsBarszs]

@@wowomah6194 cool down there Rambo. also, fun=/=healthy.

[@atomocene]

32:15 “It may be worse, but more people are playing Magic than ever before, so is it actually worse?” More people than ever played World of Warcraft at the end of Wrath of the Lich King and the beginning of Cataclysm. Meanwhile “new-player friendly” designs like the dungeon and raid finer rotted the game’s core from the inside out. It never recovered.

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

Wizards of the Coast's OGL controversy and immediate follow up with a new edition afterwards as well as sending the Pinkerton's after someone was so lasy week. I totally trust them to run EDH.

[@Srynan]

It is not true that most people were mad at the changes. Nitpicking Nerds ran a poll that was split 66/33 in favour of the changes. The people who were mad were just more actively commenting EVERYWHERE.

[@stefasaurus2476]

Makes me realize how many commander players have never played a 60 card format to hear so many complaints about wotc not taking bans seriously. Bans are far more responsive and coherent in formats wotc manages.

[@efuii]

Lol, what? WotC ruined standard at multiple occasions by taking forever to act upon bans or by simply overlooking then. The same is to be said about legacy and modern. Now that they're on control of the bans of EDH, there's no tell of how much depravity they will create. The future is dire my friend. Hasbro wants money and we are their ATL.

[@derekcline950]

​@efuii your point that Standard bans took forever is a point for OP's. Because commander bans have taken significantly longer than Standard bans... or been non existent. WotC won't ban until a set has time to sell. EDH almost never saw bans

[@IIDX]

Almost 4+ years without Commander bans.

[@thesamuraiman]

​@@IIDX 2021 was 3 years ago

[@rowankeltizar5961]

​@@derekcline950to be fair, commander isnt (or wasn't) a format that really needed to be regulated. Between being a multiplayer format and a singleton format it is supposed to be self balancing to a degree. Only recently has wotc began printing cards specifically for the format, many of which are just too powerful.

[@seanbaumann8825]

About 21 mins in I think Seth hits the nail on the head. If you put in your deck list and it rates your deck on whatever scale is what it should be. Genius idea.

[@tcurrid8059]

Just assign point values to cards like Highlander use but don’t have a points limit. “I’m playing a 420 point deck”.

[@deifiedtitan]

30000 cards is a lot of work to assign points to

[@EffinChat]

I initially thought that pointed cards was the way to go, but thinking about it the Canlander points list only works because there's a group of volunteers monitoring the format and regularly reviewing the metagame, which the Canlander Council can do because of the relevant size of the format - not the size of the player base, but the actual scope of what people go into games to achieve. Do you point Morophon based off the combo player putting it in a Jodah deck to play all their spells for free or do you do it in reaction to the Kavu tribal player?

[@Suavek69]

​@@deifiedtitan which is why you only assign points to outliers

[@hopperpeace]

yeah and then playing the best cards under 421 to stomp...

[@bennettpalmer1741]

@@EffinChat Morophon could be worth an "Average" amount of points - for the Jodah player, it's probably being played alongside a bunch of other high point valued cards, whereas in the Kavu deck, it would be the one "high value" card in a list of primarily bottom of the barrel point values. A 100 point value Morophon might bring the Jodah deck from 900 points to 1000 points, or bring the Kavu list from 50 to 150. Seems fine to me. This is better than the tier system, where the Kavu deck and the Jodah deck are both identically at tier 3, because they both have morophon, or the current system where they're both power level 7 because everything is power level 7.

[@Optimator7]

Vampiric Tutor is definitely a 4

[@brentondebusschere8082]

For when they talk about bracket 4, this doesn’t apply to cedh this is for casual players. Cedh will always be cedh. Bracket 4 is high power casual

[@Neowurm]

The big question on the card scores though is how do you score combo cards? Famished Paladin and Resplendent Mentor are both cards that nobody would play alone but together it's infinite life.

[@zackestin1368]

then why would you need to grade them around anything but the way people play them? theyre an infinite life combo. thats why people are putting it into their decks. by your own admission "nobody would play them alone" so who cares if one of them is a 3.

[@ADVBCAT]

Richard acting like wotc didn't literally try to push Commander aside and get us all playing "commander but it rotates out and you're forced to buy new cards constantly" as soon as it became more popular than all the formats they ruined. 🙄🙄

[@SodaPopToyShop]

Seth at 21:04 is so insightful. It's like building a Warhammer army. You get points for each card in your deck. You play against other decks/armies with similar point scores.

[@maximilianlopez196]

Richard's want to have wizard in charge of the format like they're in charge of every format is that the commander format wasn't made by wizards. It was made outside of wizards "hands". This podcast didn't want Grief in the modern format and wizards waited until grief was reprinted more and the profits trended down on the whole modern format before banning it. Imagine that but the new chase edh card. Or a group of cards that make the format miserable then when people quit commander and the meta gets stagnant then maybe they'll ban it. I'm not going to be hyperbole and shout "RIP EDH" but I don't think this is a good thing in the long run.

[@KingZarathus]

I'm an old school player from the 90's. Mono-red burn was always my favorite archetype. The budget (nearly) mono-red pump/fling deck from Seth helped get me onto Arena for the first time. I'm loving the pump deck and the addition of the Leyline. I invite the glass cannon mentality and love trying to eek out the last couple of damage when least expected to win.

[@TheSpiritombsableye]

3:47. Yes. Just like the power ranking in competitive Pokémon video gaming.

[@britesjd]

So happy that the crew is enjoying limited. I also have been loving duskmourn limited. Absolutely fantastic

[@jamesharrigan2244]

If they make a ban list based on the bracket it could do both for example Mana crypt being a bracket 3 ban = mana crpyt is illegal up to a bracket 3 deck. So at bracket 4 (competitive) it is legal. That would make sense to me.

[@Ramschat]

Of course they're not going to give every card a rating! 99% of cards will be tier 1. They're going to name the exceptions and say, "all cards not in this list are tier 1"

[@christiansmith49]

I think we're gonna need Sarkhan to go back and mess with the timeline again...

[@playdead09]

100 percent Hasbro HAD to take it over for legal protections. If ANYTHING happened to the RC’s members because of this, Hasbro would be sued. With how much involvement they have in EDH and cooperation with the group. It’s EASY PICKINGS.

[@Kydrou]

Crim with the backwards opinion: EDH was popular because it was outside the format. It was popular before Commander Arsenal. Now it's just popularized. If WotC wanted to get in power, people still would've gone to "official sites". If you wanna play Canadian Highlander, you don't go to WotC. If you want deck lists, you go to Goldfish, or EDHREC...

[@stayhomewarrior9854]

I think this grading system really has some potential. It just needs a few tweaks. I recon do a three tier system: Tier one: casual play cards - these are your stables found in most precons, and are your none mana positive ramp. Tier two: High power - this is your format warping cards, your powerfull draw engines and efficient tutors. Tier three: restricted for casual play - This basically your ban list but without the hard word of ban so people can feel as if there cards hold value and feel more comfortable asking to play them. I feel like this idea is much smoother going forward

[@SiliconSicilian]

I really don't think Wizards is going to do nothing. Their statement is clear that they DO intend to review the complete ban list. They only said that they aren't going to make any immediate changes. Expect to see some reversals within the next 6 months, if not sooner. The power list definitely needs some work. Some decks need a niche card which may be considered powerful in another deck. Ancient Tomb shouldn't make your deck top level. Love the idea Seth brought up of a deck score website. In theory, it shouldn't be difficult as a spreadsheet would be really simple. If cards are out of 4, then the "max" score should be 400. Of course basic lands and most lands, in general, would be 0 or 1 so actual max may be closer to 250? Hitting 200 or higher is high tier, 250 is definitely cEDH?

[@JigokuvsTengoku]

Wizards planeswalkers as commanders YEAAHH.

[@EDtheIII]

Okay, you can think the rating system is gonna go poorly or not, but you gotta admit that the new format of "CEDH, but we only use 1's" is gonna be sick.

[@Issblodh]

That’s because competative is a mindset, not a rule set. Competative players will embrace the restrictiveness of the lowest bracket. Remember, restriction breeds creativity.

[@averymorley2398]

Richard pointing at the numbers and saying it’s good, crim shrugging and tapping the sign to justify counter spell, and poor Seth trying to use historical trends and emotional argument

[@justwantawholename]

CEDH will just exist at every bracket. Brackets sound similar to Smogon tiers for pokemon 1v1. If this turns out anything like that, then people will gravitate torwards the second highest power level bracket. But you'll probably see players at all brackets, and it's a popular enough format for the split

[@uchiha2014]

Yeah but smogon is not competitive and honestly is stupid as hell

[@anselvanheerden3074]

These changes are primarily for organised play at command fest or similar. Provided they have a tool that allows deck submissions for evaluation of your deck, I can see this as a major positive.

[@Adjacent_2]

Is there ever a chance to get Phil here on the podcast again? Really miss his insights

[@jeremyphillips3087]

I dont know that theyd want him on again after the controversy

[@irtnyc]

​@@jeremyphillips3087What controversy? Please ELI5

[@thesamuraiman]

​@@jeremyphillips3087explain

[@Sinistra359]

I love phil, but his insights aren't really that insightful lol

[@baconloversupreme]

@@jeremyphillips3087yeah enlighten me on this

[@QuicksilverSG]

Commander is really three overlapping formats, distinguished by card selection: * Casual Commander - No: stax, infinite loops, land destruction. Budget-friendly, no proxies. * Pay-to-Win Commander - Casual plus pay-to-win cards > $25. Proxies require permission. * Competitive EDH (cEDH) - Play-to-win, nothing legal excluded. Proxies taken for granted. Prominent promoters of Pay-to-Win Commander are WotC, online card dealers, and corporate-sponsored KZbinrs. Here is a translation of WotC's proposed four brackets of Commander power level: Bracket 1: cards < $10 Bracket 2: cards up to $10 - $20 Bracket 3: cards up to $20 - $100 Bracket 4: cards > $100

[@knightcydoniax9561]

I could see a bracket system working. They wouldn’t technically have to ban any new cards. Every card could have a home. But I worry it would divide commander into 4 separate formats. Where people only exclusively want to play in one respective bracket.

[@mishapopenuk7940]

The bracket idea is the most idiotic thought they had, it will only add to confusion and feels bad

[@darthsnarf]

it kind of already is 4 different formats, it just does not have hard lines, its divided by power level, cedh, level 8-9, mid tier, jank decks, non of them really play well with each other

[@BattleAxeRX]

You probably have decks in at least two different tiers right now. Let's wait and see.

[@IIDX]

All cards (staples) are gonna be aggregated into power brackets. Formula will pass on to Moxfield/Edhrec etc. Your deck list will show where cards fall in bracket and maybe a definitive NUMBER will show your decks power level. Where your cards fall in brackets. Mana pie, mana curve, etc. Spit balling.

[@isambo400]

I like the idea of sub-dividing commander. One of the main reason I don't play it is it has no structure. I don't want to have to rule 0. I'd prefer to just have a defined format like Modern or Standard.

[@boopmcdoop7841]

Saying Hasbro has owned WotC since 1999 is disingenuous as they changed their legal relationship in 2021 from owned subsidiary to one of 3 main "branches" of Habro's business. Look at a graph of card releases per year and see if you notice anything start around 2021.

[@ChristophGro]

I actually like the idea of power brackets for cards. This incentivises players to build decks with more or less consistent powerlevels which I think should make for a better playing experience in the long run. If you decide to put a power 4 card into your power 2 deck, that might not make your deck a 4, but it can still lead to lopsided games if you happen to draw that card at a power 2 table. So now, you have to think about whether you really want to engage in these pre-game discussions or just leave those spiky cards out of your low/mid-power decks. According to the WotC article, they want community feedback for these power brackets. This sounds to me like something that could be incorporated into sites like EDHREC and Moxfield so that actually tracking the distribution of cards over the brackets for our decks might not be too hard. Will be interesting to see how this shapes out. Basic Islands will be a 4, right? ;)

[@Ciemny905]

if your deck only has one teir 4 card in it you should know that and be able to SAY that in your TURN 0 DISCUSSION. why is that so complicated to understand. this creates an actual talking point to say hey my decks this powerful it only has 1 teir 4 card. when you sit at that cedh table the table can say bro we have 50 teir 4 cards that might not be great to play vs us maybe we should swap or you shouldnt play at this grouping.

[@therealvania]

Seth, people who don't think super powerful tutors like vampiric are 4s are part of the problem.

[@nickoking]

People that are bad at the game and refuse to improve are the problem.

[@nodekapunk]

People who refuse to run interaction is the problem

[@MrxDaffy]

If you take precon and add 2 tutors is this deck cEDH now?

[@PaulSzkibik]

@@MrxDaffy You can construct a scenario for any single card in magic where it's unproblematic. That doesn't make a card unproblematic. Even Ancestral Recall is an unproblematic card in some blue casual pile. Especially in a 100 card singleton format with 4 players selfregulating players who are too far ahead. Saying "if you add this card to a random pile of cards, it's will barely make the deck better" isn't really a useful argument for power level discussions.

[@MrxDaffy]

@@PaulSzkibik My point is that high power level of single card is not problem, if you play low power deck for example precon, is it problem if you playing 1 tutor and one extra piece of fast man? I dont think so.

[@adamkarolak3544]

I was browsing net while sitting on toilet when i stumbled on information from wizards. The loud "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!" That got out of my lungs made my whole family jump upand run to check if everything is ok with me...

[@weeklyweeks7545]

Seth! Definitely not a cynical take. Self regulation has shown to not work in most organizations. RC was the balance. I feel for Jim, the rest of the RC, CAG for trying their best. There’s no doubt in my mind that these people wanted the best for everyone, and there’s not many things in my life I can say that about with that level of confidence.

[@brandonwise519]

So thought. Let’s say we somehow get every card codified with “bracket” levels 1 through 4. You could, say, add the values of all these levels across your deck, -100 (because that’s going to be the minimum), and then say “my deck is bracket 4”, because it contains bracket 4 cards, and then also say, “it’s power level is

[@jonlamoreaux2228]

Josh quit because the Cag was useless. They never consulted them on the latest ban, and even when they did, they always did the opposite of what he recommended. The Cag was just an illusion that the RC wasn't just banning cards based on the game styles they didn't like.

[@brianv3ntura]

Braindead take just like Josh's arguments on their recent podcast esp considering what we already know and what the CZ has been saying about fast mana for multi episodes.

[@zacharyklewin3603]

There's a pretty simple solution for wotc in regards to card rankings. Hire the scryfall team full-time remote work, and take down gatherer because it's terrible and doesn't work half the time. Then add a 4 star system on scryfall like the one gatherer used to have and let players make an account and rank the card right on the card's page, and players can change their personal ranking at any time. The average star rank will be the official rank of any given card and be displayed on that card's scryfall page

[@burningpapersun1]

All of our decks will be a 4 because we all have sol ring. Bracket 4 will just be timeless commander.

[@TheEvolver311]

They said Sol Ring would be 0 tier because of its grandfathered stataus

[@svendejong8110]

Agree with Crim re: the tier list. Great points regarding taking powerful cards out of your weak deck, and putting together the card rankings.

[@MarkFillmore]

This was inevitable. Sad how it all fell apart, but this was a disaster roll out.

[@stephenandolino]

happy to hear Richard grinding limited and enjoying the format!