FATE OF THE LOST PRIMARCHS! JAILED BY THE CUSTODES?

[@anxioussamurai9017]

I absolutely think at least one of the lost Primarchs is down there. As cold-blooded as the Emperor (beloved by all) can be, killing one of his own sons is something even he struggles with. Look at how much had to happen before the Emperor (beloved by all) finally destroyed Horus. I know a lot of people want their fates and identities to remain a mystery but I really, really want to find out more about them.

[@nopeuhhuhh3662]

Agreed. And.i don't think the emperor would have killed them, even if for no other reason than how much resources went into creating them. The emperor lead whole damned crusades just to find them he's not just gonna kill them off.

[@th3oryO]

I'd love to know more as well, but didn't one of the authors basically admit that 2/11 are deliberately removed so that the fanbase can speculate and homebrew their own legion and their primarch? The speculation itself keeps people engaged far longer than a known.

[@ekulerudamuru]

@@th3oryO it was before but this reasoning isn't that much interesting anymore, as with the primaris, one can create a chapter from traitor geneseed and that put more flavor to it than an unknown legion

[@MasoZombieNPC]

Squints in Commissar

[@TKUltra971]

Please. We all know one of the lost primarch is dead and the other is DoomGuy. DoomGuy of the 2nd legion is currently doing a never ending spawn cycle of demons keeping the web way gate to the emperors lab closed. That's why they hear screaming and battle sounds from the other side once in a while. True story. Confirmed by Dan Abbnet and Guy Haley.

[@xenoscry]

You know, I'm fine with not knowing the ultimate fates of the missing Primarchs, but the burning question I want to know about them is what did they do? That's the bit that I keep hoping to read one day.

[@danielbob2628]

There are very few possible explanations. They didn't turn to Chaos, or the events of the Horus Heresy would have been full of references to them. For similar reasons, they must not have: *Openly rebelled *Done anything major with psyker powers *Subverted the Imperial Truth in any way *Been victims of anything similar to the Butcher's Nails *Been simply too attached to their sons They didn't try to create any multi-species societies, because that would be the stupidest writing decision on the planet. They couldn't have simply been found dead by the first Imperials who ever saw them, because a specific passage in an Emperor's Children book mentions how they acted towards Fulgrim. I'm betting that one collaborated with xenos (Drukhari?) and the other had dangerously defective geneseed.

[@LordRydag]

They probably just died on the planet chaos sent them too. How embarrassing.

[@andrewniehoff8612]

Personally, I doubt we will ever know. My guess is GW left it vague before the HH books came out and then realized that with all the people who knew them running around someone would talk about it. Since they had no idea what to do they just have everyone say "It is too terrible to talk about" and leave it at that.

[@xenoscry]

@@andrewniehoff8612 tbh I would have agreed with you 48 hours ago. But after seeing the most recent video Valrak put up about 2/2/22, it got me thinking. The whole purpose of the 2 missing Primarchs was so that players could fill in the gaps with their own creativity. With so much about the space marines and their lore fleshed out these days I wonder if it would be ok to have one step into the universe once more. The war of the false Primarch would be an extremely interesting way to take this. What if the "forgotten" Primarch literally got displaced in time and instead of arriving to help with the Rangdan Xenocides he arrived in M33 only to be captured by the Inquisition. Suddenly the custodes having a Primarch in the dark cells might make sense. It could even be for his own protection from the very imperium that no longer knows who he is. That would be wild. If Gman found out and set him free it would be easy to cook him up a primaris chapter if he wasn't hostile.

[@athatcher9367]

I like to imagine one of them just disappeared during space travel due to warp nonsense and when they came back it was post heresy and they started the “War of The False Primarch”

[@TheSinexCN]

I got the impression that Dorn had stumbled across the _tomb_ of his lost brothers rather than their erstwhile living quarters.

[@CrispinBac0n]

Oh!? Do tell more?

[@jsn1252]

It really wasn't clear what he found. The revelation that Malcador could manipulate the memories of primarchs does however make whatever he "revealed" to Dorn highly suspect.

[@TheSinexCN]

@@CrispinBac0n In addition to the appointments of the room that had been discovered, the arms of Malcador's personal throne are adorned with one skull beneath each arm rest: one skull's forehead is marked with an Astartes Legion numeral "II" and the other with an "XI". Taken all together that pretty much inconclusively shows them to be dead, with their uncle being the only one seeing fit to commemorate their passing with the memorials.

[@kernom749]

@@TheSinexCN Tomb of a lost brother not brothers

[@TobeWilsonNetwork]

@@TheSinexCN Aw that’s so heartbreaking

[@rogersilva771]

Since the Emperor can see the future I wonder if he kept “Subject 11” alive to save the future of the imperium. He scrubbed or planted fake memories in their minds of all the Primarchs to think he was dead so Chaos wouldn’t find out, but has him in stasis till the right time.

[@sanninjiraiya]

Plot twist. Omegon was that 11th. Obviously not true but it is the kind of thing some Alpha legion fans would run with.

[@rogersilva771]

@@sanninjiraiya lol, on twitter I sent Valrak a message saying that it would be funny if one of the Lost Primarchs landed on the Squat homeworld.

[@Bardghost_Isu]

Right, it would also fit my wondering if them being held could tie into the terminus decree, that being the point at which the mask drops and out they come

[@Baconmonster723]

Us: What happened to the lost two primarchs?!?! GW: The emperor kept them hidden until the right time! Us: That's interesting, why did he... GW: PRIMARIS PRIMARCHS!!!

[@Mobius01010]

im betting they were like alpharius and omegon, only instead of twins, they were triplets, with the emperor himself being the third of them, so there would be one thats too light, and one thats too dark, and one thats the appropriate mix for humanity's survival...

[@MH-br3th]

I've always thought that the "forgotten" Primarch simply disagreed with the Emperor on the fundamentals of the great crusade and refused to wage war on non-compliant human civilizations. He may have been given a chance to get with the program but eventually the Emperor washed his hands of him and his legion and that was the end of it.

[@serbronnoftheblackwater798]

Could be true, since one of the lost is described as being "pure""pure of heart", and the other deep and contemplative yet Hippocratic .

[@serbronnoftheblackwater798]

They are all aspects of the emperor broken into shards, each shard is a primarch born of a certain trait that makes up the emperor.

[@jaysherman2615]

@@serbronnoftheblackwater798 This is my theory and it is a bit long winded. The 4 chaos gods are not the Chaos gods of mankind, granted they are capable of feeding off of mankind. The 4 chaos gods are the Eldar gods that were corrupted by the hedonistic and evils of the Eldar before and during the fall. Khaine being Khorne, Isha actually being Nurgle instead of his prisoner, Asuryan is Tzench and Slaanesh being slaanesh. Fragments of the old Khaine being held by the Craftworld Eldar. I think the Primarchs are minor warp entities of humanity the Emperor fetched in his adventure into the warp to put as his generals. Ferrus Manus being the nature of makinds desire for physical strength, Vulkan being the friendship and kinship of mankind, Sanguinius being mankind's love for the divine.

[@adaeptzulander2928]

@@serbronnoftheblackwater798 Would that mean the Emperor had doubts about his own crusade? Makes sense. He's trying to save mankind, but in such a brutal fashion, is he really saving it?

[@henryviiifake8244]

A "chance" = "serve me or perish" 🙄

[@Kat1kafka]

Custodes 1:it's been a millennia now how's that primarch we got locked up in the basement doing? Custodes 2:we don't talk about him Custodes 1:why- Custodes 2:BECAUSE WE DON'T TALK ABOUT HIM

[@MRsolidcolor]

i feel like a fightclub reference is missing here..

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

​@@MRsolidcolor Frist rule of fight club...YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!!!!!

[@willparrish3218]

Just a shot in the dark, but what if the terminus decree had nothing to do with killing the emperor but instead releasing the 11th?

[@Its_Cannon]

and what if the 11th is a carbon copy of the emperor

[@MightyGalvatron]

Or releasing the Angel.

[@MrRigmunkee1]

Whoa. That would be a helluva thing. I hadn't thought of that.

[@DamienBiffinc0ldm3th0d]

so much yes, a very brutal but loyal Primarch

[@halloweener3754]

I also think the 11th is related somehow to the the Terminus Decree, a "release the Kraken" move. That dude must be metal AF

[@NickSercaianu]

Fairly simple deduction: Not killing them instead putting them on storage because: 1. making primarchs is a rather expensive investment and killing them just because they have an issue is not an option (see the case of Angron), 2. If E. distributed the respective legionnaires to other legions as it is suspected, they may need genetic materials.. 3. Just my own suspicion, because they have no issue, they committed no sin , they are just wildcards in a rather tough poker match with the 4 whom E had some agreements before . Having a couple of unknown primarchs hidden after making certain promises he had no intention to keep..is not that hard to consider. Just my thoughts ofc

[@ruipinho619]

Problem is, Primarchs are not your run of the mill problem, they are basically immortal beings, capable of going toe to toe with greater daemons. They are not easily contained and if one were to escape or change his mind about staying in prison, that's an extremely terrible problem to deal with.

[@NickSercaianu]

@@ruipinho619 agree with that totally. Although, i am fairly convinced that archaeotech for stasis preservation may be there, those pesky custodians proved lately they have many tech tricks in storage (example: when they re-hauled the phalanx during the most recent crusade).

[@johnrambo8456]

@@ruipinho619 This "prison" could be a size of the city, so you don't have to be bored in it.

[@ruipinho619]

@@NickSercaianu thats a good point, did not think of stasis, that would certainly work to keep them secure. As well as other technologies.

[@ruipinho619]

@@johnrambo8456 The prison might be, but the cell wont be for sure.

[@superthrowdown1]

I have a theory that one of them was sent to the future when the Primarchs were scattered by the warp. Possibly growing up on a world once loyal to the Imperium, but now ravaged by war. Where the fate of the Imperium is known to be a terrible fall to corruption and chaos. So the Primarch manages to make his way back through the warp to sometime before the HH and tries to warn his father of whats to come and after the things he predicted start come to pass, his Legion are absorbed into other legions and he is taken to Terra in secret to advise the Emperor, and all memory of him and his knowledge of the future is erased. It could even be that the "original" timeline of the Imperium was far darker than it currently is and only with the Primarchs help was the Emperor able to steer events in the most favourable direction. Its been said before that big E knew that half his sons would turn so maybe all that and his internment on the golden throne was simply the best option...kinda like Dr Strange in Endgame :) sorry for the long rant

[@gadrielvanorion9872]

it could be a thing, yes

[@zingercheese3454]

That's fanfiction. Not a theory.

[@superthrowdown1]

@@zingercheese3454 Really? That's all you have to input, you must be fun at parties

[@zingercheese3454]

@@superthrowdown1 Hey, didn't mean to offend. It's nice fan fiction, and could be feasibly written, but there's no evidence for it.

[@superthrowdown1]

@@zingercheese3454 my bad, sorry for going for the attack mate, totally misinterpreted that 👍

[@Erebdai]

Wouldn’t it be cool to get more great crusades books? Before the Heresy, before the counsel of Nikes. Just legions doing their jobs. Like a novel where Fulgrim and his 300 astates fight along side the lunar wolves. Or the founding of Manacia or some of the first legions conquests. Or a series of books about the Ram dag xenosaga

[@callukcraft]

i think they should do models for crusade stuff turn it into a format like heresy and 40k would be so cool

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

counsel of Nikes? Fulgrim's 300 astates? Ram dag xenosaga? Founding of Manacia? *_RAM DAG XENOSAGA!?_* The worst part is, I understood every word you typed, and I can't stop laughing because I think I have dyslexia now, and dyslexic 40k sounds way more fun. *Also, Luna Wolves

[@callukcraft]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 ok i did not type the comment but i am dyslexic and did not pick up on that although RAM DAG XENOSAGA sounds like a great stor.y

[@Instar_nine]

Both Primarchs are possiblely alive alive I think false memories were given to the Primarchs, to make them think they are gone and to fool the chaos powers They are a backup plan for the Emperor for some reason

[@sardonicspartan9343]

The crusades are by far the most interesting to me.

[@jkee9760]

I still believe 2 is a blank and went into the warp with his legion sent there by the emperor and since the emperor wanted all warp shenanigans quiet, did everything he could to silence it. 11 maybe the emperors rage and wrath that he couldnt control.

[@SpeedLockedNZ]

Time traveling within the warp is possible

[@michelletheia9853]

I like the idea of a blank primarch, an anathema. Maybe made with null maiden dna combined with the emperor’s. Could allow the lore to have a woman primarch.

[@vitaliyred622]

@@michelletheia9853 yes that would have been cool, but please to female space marines. There are sisters of battles already changed to what they are now.

[@jkee9760]

@@michelletheia9853 lol nah, just he would be a blank primarch.

[@pseudonymn]

>11 maybe the emperors rage and wrath that he couldnt control. >Angron: *Rage-fueled Hulk Smash noises*

[@eliasnightfire5543]

I always loved reading the fan theories in comment sections speculating about the fate of the II and XI Primarchs, and the total mystery surrounding them. I honestly think GW should keep their fates untold. Every good story needs threads that never get tied up, the mystery and the discussions they create are more fun than having everything explained. What conclusion could GW give to The Forgotten and The Purged that could honestly live up to the years of speculation and fan theory at this point?

[@dirk903]

One of them is Sigmar from fantacy/AoS

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

They most likely will. Several Key big name authors like ADB and Abnett have often talked about those things being a lore Black box. They don't know the canon truth and we will never look into that box.

[@wwpark]

They were just left blank so gamers could come up with their own chapters and designs. Since then it’s just been embellished.

[@WatermeloniusXVI]

@@wwpark I always thought that explanation was a bit stupid, because even if they werent left blank, if someone wanted to come up with a new legion they would've done it regardless

[@fourfours9928]

@@WatermeloniusXVI the modern argument to tell their stories

[@tomdolan9761]

I've always found it odd that the Caos Gods and the Herectical Primarch are silent on the Lost and the Damned. It seems to me if you are free enough to be Daemon Prince you aren't likely to be constrained about your lost brothers.

[@ianharrison5758]

I mean it’s confirmed malcador altered the memories of at least 2 primarchs. It’s likely after he humbled Horus he had the emperor alter the memories of his sons to not include the lost primarchs names or fate

[@vermin9190]

i believe they should retcon them and change it to "The 2 Lost Primaarches and their legion".

[@guyquanstrom6205]

Something to consider,in the fury of Magnus heresy book, there are still 20 primarch sized villas deep under the palace hidden through the black stone labyrinth.

[@cristiangarza7791]

What do you mean by Villas ?

[@stevevincent1881]

Housing

[@billykebabs81]

The Emperor also has set a precedent for imprisoning one of his creations, The Angel. The Angel helped the Emperor pacify Terra (and potentially helped in the early days of The Great Crusade), but it became so destructive that he had to put him into an eternal sleep (hence his other name, The Sleeper). If the Emperor imprisoned The Angel because he couldn't bring himself to kill him, why not one of his sons?

[@eotwkdp]

I always wondered that. Why didn’t he kill the angel. Does he planned to one day fix him so he doesn’t go on a murder spree

[@MWH12085]

That's the thing, The Angel IS The Emperor's son.

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

What story is that from?

[@fiendishpower]

@@chadcuckproducer1037 Inquisitor: Conspiracies - Death of an Angel

[@shadowlord1418]

It wasn't he couldn't bring himself to kill it he couldn't at all

[@jaegerbomb269]

It would be awesome if one or both escape. We'll see.

[@setaripantheon8801]

One got corrupted by chaos before the Emperor could reach him and was killed.

[@RevantheBlack]

They never will., they are there so fans can make fan chapters/chaos warbands

[@dfailsthemost]

Imagine your Primarch first telling you that the Emperor has forbidden using Psyker talents, knowing your primarch is definitely the type to enforce the Emperor's decrees violently, and then having your primarch come to you like "hey, do me a solid and do your psyker thing for me..." I picture a normally hyper obedient space marine being like "uhhhhhh..."

[@ltjamescoopermason8685]

My idea for one of the missing Primarchs is told by Astartes in this secret chapter which wears only black it is known as the Dark Wolves and my back story is a young aspirant decked out in armour black as night. He kills multiple altered senturys altered to exist on a radiated world guarding a secret listening post. A rickety lift takes them up from the drop sight of the first nuclear missile. The shadow breaks necks of some guards with such force he rips their heads of making the blackest of blood shoot upwards as he holds them slowly lowering the bodies to the dusty ground. In the Astartes lens he watches the radiation level rising . He arrives at the framework to the lift but the Astartes silently climbs without a sound not scratching his matt black armour. The last guards are walking patrolling the plateau where the listening station sits with aerial types picking up every voxed talk across the universe. The tracks of one show a foot and a reptilian tail supporting the guard. To cut it short one he shoots the other he eviscerated! He places explosives on to a heavily armored door .Slowly he backs away but inside a Adeptus Menchanicus Preist of the darkest evil moves towards the door his remaining part of his mind say investigate. Such a large explosion drops the adept off his rubber tracks, his thin metal arms are unable to push him up right. The Astartes whose been only a shadow as he took out sentrys one by one, the adapt finds his mind clear free for the first time in ten thousand years! Lying next to him is a figure covered in slime and it slowly grows as the Astartes fills his bag with STC information from these different listening devices! He turns as a feeling of eyes on his back. The creature came from the adopts mind and stands two meters tall. "What are you it asks ,the Astartes puts to bolt pistols rounds in its forehead. What are you as you move like Primarch Corvus, but your shooting is placed like Gulliman. I felt you running like the Kahn yet I smell Russ? What are you child the aspirant turned a faint growling came from his lips! Your built like the defender of the palace Dorn by your height is like a son of Vilkan ! The Aspirant removed his helmet with the sound of pressure seals decreasing in pressure . So my my the creature pronounced its voice female your face is of Sanguinius your one of his? The aspirant laughed we are the darkest chapter kept secret by a experimenting devout Priest on Mars you see demon my father its said was born with a little of all his family its said. But my chapter honours the wolf named Russ for when he came to kill him for saying the future for his father the Emperor who saw much but not everything. RUSS allowed his twin brother to leave with his thirty thousand warriors knowing the Emperor may punish him for giving life not taking it as well as thirty thousand Astartes brothers that was the biggest similarity of all was to leaman Russ and his lone wolf side ! My father ended his life the same way his brother lost his but he was reborn in the furthest place imaginable north where its said he lives still! As the Aspirant walked out through the bent door frame he fired every round of his bolt pistol into the creature while saying I am Achilles and a new brother of the Dark Wolves Chapter! Overhead a thunderhawk kept cycling waiting for the black armoured marine to leave . It fired multiple missiles in through the twisted door frame in to the listening machines and the creature now formed as a woman a single horn on her head and a snapping scorpions pincer instead of a hand.

[@Palemagpie]

Would be pretty good story telling if. The two lost legions and their primarchs. We're never lost at all, but were meant as a sort of failsafe. like maybe their roles were merely ones that couldn't be known. Plus they always say their legions were spared. And we just assume that means they were mixed in with the rest of the legions. But wouldn't it be equally. Or even more badass, if there was atleast one old crusade strength legion stasis locked under the palace?

[@jessicalacasse6205]

would have been use in the heresy palace battle

[@ianharrison5758]

@@jessicalacasse6205 I mean there’s a scene where the emperor sees his future on the throne and it’s made pretty clear he’s got a plan. I think the webway project was a best case scenario type plan, and now the emperor has a back up plan. A fresh primarch and legion would be perfect for that

[@kccustodes2618]

I know it is hard to keep this going, it starts getting hard for content, but this was dead a bullseye! This harkens back to some of your greatest videos. Well done, sir. Kudos Wolf Lord.

[@Yandarval]

RE: not allowing Dorn to flatten the two villas. A possible that Big E and Malcador have some sort of location based wards that are linked to those villas. The personal connection etc.

[@gimpalopagus]

I know it isn't canon but I think it would be great lore if one, or even both, of the 2 lost legions/primarchs were actually sacrificed to a man willing by big E, to ensure that big E had "soul legion" in place to fight to the fullest in warp space, thus becoming the Legion of the Damned. This would allow for the 'half' return of a loyal primarch and open up a lot of story opportunities what with the legion of the damned only being able to temporarily remain in realspace etc... Idk

[@Simmoriah]

The lengths the Emperor goes to save his sons given his history of genocide makes me wonder if the Primarchs actually are pieces or are repositories of the Emperor's soul.

[@brownehawk7744]

For me reading 40k since I was a teenager and constantly seeing knowledge is power. I want that power, I want to know of the 2 lost primarchs. Like many people I'm always looking for new news on them. I'd rather just know at this point. Been a fan for 20 years would be nice to know before die of old age.

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

We don't even know what the primarx did which got them relegated down the memory hole. I think it has something to do with the Rangda. If you put both Russ and Jonson there, you have maybe the most trustworthy 2 primarchs from the perspective of the Emperor. At the time, the 1st was the largest legion it's the largest legion and was there to deal with an extinction level threat. We know that the 1st kept a lot of secrets. We know that Russ kept a lot of responsibilities and earned a reputation from somewhere. I maintain that the 1st and 6th dealt with them. It is conceivable that Russ slew one and the Lion imprisoned one.

[@commissarlugh1040]

Makes sense why so little of the radar is known

[@helicaldota]

i always look at the Rangdan as the species from "The Thing", and knowing the bone-chilling feats that species posesses, its a beauty to fantasize about the What If's

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

@@helicaldota, they did mention tentacles. That'd be creepy.

[@clemo85]

I know I'm late to the party. But maybe the reason they were purged from all records is because they both transcended the physical plane. The Primarch's are considered to be a combination of genetic engineering and the Emperor's DNA. Maybe the use of his DNA was what was needed to allow Minor Gods he had collected/convinced to possess the Primarch bodies - this would explain why some of them didn't like him while others remained loyal, along with why the clone of Horus didn't have a Primarch aura and why Angron lost his upon ascension to daemonhood (his Minor God 'soul' left the Primarch's body or was subdued). Maybe the two lost Primarch's learned of what they were and spoke of it to the Emperor, who was obviously enraged and ordered them not the speak of it again due to this knowledge going against the Imperial Truth. Resulting in 'The Purged' to go against his father and continue to work on transcending back into the warp, only with greater power thanks to the Emperor's DNA. 'The Lost' could have been the one to try and stop his brother, culminating in their Legions battling and the Emperor present to witness their duel, just before 'The Purged' successfully transcended and became Malal. The reason I think this is because when Horus is being choked to death by Malachor, he tries to speak the name of one of his lost brothers and only gets out "M.. Mal.. al" before his windpipe is completely closed. Maybe after seeing the process to be able to transcend, 'The Lost' was encouraged by the Emperor to do the same to ensure his transcended brother was kept in check. Ending in 'The Lost' transcending back to its Minor God form and going into the warp to chase/battle his brother. The Emperor would then cease the fighting with his enormous psychic power and mind wipe them all before the timeline we all know - Dorn/Rowboat convincing him to spare the marines and have them join the Fists and Ultramarines, mindwiping the other Primarchs and anyone with knowledge of them and who they were. Finally labelling them as 'The Purged' (Malal) and 'The Lost' (the loyal son who may be battling with his brother for all eternity). This would also explain why Malal is able to be summoned into the physical plane, even though it's supposed to be a Minor God.

[@dominusnox8231]

Comes a time when you take the reins off even a dead horse. They should move this part of the storyline along.

[@paulb7943]

This. Enough is enough

[@musafawundu6718]

In a big big way...

[@cranberry6460]

But the story has been kinda shit so far. Case in point: Primaris marines.

[@ianharrison5758]

@@cranberry6460 I don’t have any problems with the primaris marines. Rn is the most interesting time in the lore since the heresy. It was cool seeing the same types of stories done over and over again for years but it’s beyond time for new spicy shake ups in the lore

[@Furzkampfbomber]

Considering what we know about the Custodes and about how they operate and also taking into consideration that the Custodes exist for more than 10.000 years and that their original name might have become quite slurred over time, it is perfectly safe to assume that the Adeptus _Custodian_ helped to... sweep the two lost Primarchs under the rug. I help myself out...

[@rocky2561]

I laughed and im mad at myself for laughing

[@Anathema308]

I think the theory that the Black Templars are not descended from Dorn but actually from one of the Lost Primarchs since we know from the Chamber story that the Imperial Fists absorbed marines from one or both of the Legions. Rogal tells Sigismund that he was never his son and the mentality and outlook of the Black Templars is so different than the other Imperial Fists and their successors.

[@Anathema308]

There's also the information from the Soul Drinkers novel where it's discovered that the Soul Drinkers were not descended from the Imperial Fists either

[@willnox1]

@@Anathema308 Best part of that is other Imperial Fist chapters learned that they are not descended from Dorn either. The White Templars share the same issue.

[@setaripantheon8801]

Most were absorbed by the Ultramarines and The World Bearers tho...

[@skydrivexx9577]

i think most legions got some marines from the 2nd and 11th absorbed into them, the ultramarines are hinted to have got alot aswell

[@vontheunknown7982]

@@setaripantheon8801 you mean the ultramarine and the Imperial fists?

[@nopeuhhuhh3662]

I remember reading in one of the HH books that someone punched the 11ths pod right as it was about to be pulled into the warp, damaging it. I imagine that's a huge plot point

[@Dreadbringer]

Nop, horus touched a pod wich got corrupted.

[@faded_specter6495]

@@Dreadbringer can you elaborate I have never heard of this and it sounds cool

[@danmann8315]

@@faded_specter6495 "He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it ... feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass." - Horus, during a vision granted to him by Chaos while recovering in the Temple of the Serpent Lodge

[@ianharrison5758]

@@danmann8315 I always read that moment as a warp vision not time travel. Not only does that action create a paradox, essentially forcing humanity into the 1 timeline where Horus does everything needed to wind up going back in time to touch the pod. We know that’s not how fate works from both Sanginius and Konrad. That’s why to me it makes more sense for that to have been a vision or a hallucination of some kind. Or hell, he could have been looking back in time but him actually interacting with the pods is very iffy to me. Either way it’s cool to think abt

[@ngcastronerd4791]

I'd say that for WH40k, calling it "subject 11" is pretty much on the nose.

[@zarecht2968]

Calling it now, I genuinely believe at least one of the two lost primarchs has to be some kind of super powerful blank or pariah. And if subject 11 is indeed a primarch I believe he would be the super blank of the two as killing a powerful and useful individual such as them would be too much of a waste and his imprisonment is basically just a way to turn him into a last resort weapon should Terra ever face a chaotic invasion not seen before in the history of 40K.

[@mikevorsino1643]

When I see a new video by Rho...its followed by an immediate click. Love the channel Rho. Great theory that I, for one, hope is true. I find the forgotten and the purged Primarchs fascinating. Hopefully we get some lore in the near future. I always hoped that at least one would have remained loyal....at the outskirts of the galaxy fighting the good fight....but Dorn's comment "if they were here now, the war would already have been lost" is telling.

[@johnpjones1775]

The missing primarchs and legions, here’s my theory. Those two were successful in rebelling against the emperor. They were erased because if they were known and known to be successful it could inspire other rebels. Horus and the others failed, so they’re known about as a cautionary tale. If 9 primarchs failed what chance does anyone else have, sort of thing.

[@tauras3108]

Why don’t we hear more about the lost primarchs from the traitor primarchs . It would be a great story line to expand some more on the 2nd and 11th . 🤔

[@setaripantheon8801]

Agreed, when they turned to Chaos they should have spilled the beans about that..

[@Elbuarto]

Because the lost primarchs are a device for the fans to allow more homebrewed chapters or warbands. I'd be surprised if we ever get more than some vague hints and snippets.

[@NickWarlordGR]

@@Elbuarto tbh GW could expand on one of the two lost legions while still leaving space for an original homebrew legion. Things are getting kinda stale and an all new founding legion could spice things up a bit. Plus it would be the perfect outlet for GW to wank on new space marine models without them belonging to either the Imperium or Chaos, depending on where they want to take the story narrative-wise. I'd personally love a tabletop human faction that's not aligned to the Imperium and who better to lead a rogue nation than a renegade Primarch, wronged by both his Loyalist and Traitor brothers.

[@thatotherguy8138]

It's a hell of a good point. GW wants them to be used for Homebrew Primarchs, but there isn't much (if anything) in the Lore that would explain why the Traitors don't mention them. It's unfortunately something that we have to go with.

[@NickWarlordGR]

@@thatotherguy8138 Not sure if my lore is up to date but I seem to recall Malcador mindwiping every Primarch on the matter with a few exceptions (I think Leman was never brainwashed to begin with or has restored his memory). Unless this been retconed, the reason they mention nothing is because no one really remembers what happened, though Tzeentch may be holding it as a trapcard to use against the Traitors in case anyone has any funny ideas about returning to the Imperium.

[@Fourtytwo4242]

I feel Dorn was really close to one, most likely 11 was the one, 11 being spared and how much horus reacted, it seems he was Vulcan/pre evil horus of good. He most likely they were respected, loved and cared for, which ask question...how bad was the thing he did....

[@tezgeorge1385]

I love the Custodes, but one of the theories I was recently woken up to and cling to is that the Custodes should’ve never been an army on the table top. You should’ve been able to use them as Agents and that’s it. Even in 30k they were only seen in small squads either protecting the emperor in force, or a small detachment along with a legion.

[@tflwulf69]

I agree along with grey knights should have never been made into an army and should have been just left as an optional elite troop type if your facing chaos. The old fluff made them much stronger than they are now and they all wore termie armour not power.

[@Terribads]

It seems like GW is not just teasing so we could make a fan chapter based on a mystery, like the Blood Ravens, but.... They seem to be teasing more specifically lately. Perhaps current moods at GW are open to fleshing out the story.

[@TheTyrial86]

They have to do something to keep people engaged after all the stuff they have been doing as a company.

[@ianharrison5758]

I mean the only reason 2 legions were lost to begin with was so people could do homebrew legions I like the idea, but honestly you don’t need 2 legions to be missing in order to make a homebrew primarch. If it’s a fan fiction, do what you want, and if it’s for table top, just make the legion and use an existing legions stats for your play style. Idk abt y’all but I’m the only person I’ve ever met who made a homebrew lost primarch(getting a model commissioned soon) and I didn’t even make it for table top. Tbh I don’t think there is even a big enough market for homebrew legions for it to make sense leaving them secret. GW can make a whole lot more money implementing them into the lore for 30k, or if they are feeling spicy, bring that mf to 40k.

[@genghiscarnage4015]

The 2nd and 11th are Gork and Mork. They haven't stopped fighting yet. Emperor said they can't come out til they make up and shake hands.

[@deathbytouch4252]

I know this really wouldn’t make sense because all the psych wards around but I’ve always wanted either the second or the 11th Primark to be a blank

[@josephjohnson5415]

The psychic wards are to keep folks out. A blank would have enough trouble with physical prisons.

[@ianharrison5758]

I’m actually working on a 40k fan fiction where the heresy never happened and both lost Primarchs survive. This is relevant to your comment bc in the story, I made the 11th primarch a super pariah. Ill write out a description of the general plot of the story and how the 11th fits into it below if you’re interested in reading it. The story is lore friendly but I also changed a lot so be prepared for that. It’s also gonna be long as fuck. The story is told from the perspective of the 11th primarch and begins on the Dyson sphere he landed on after the scattering, and continues until long after the webway project is complete. The 11th primarch, which I named Draazen, is entirely unique among his brothers. In my fan fic, he doesn’t have a legion and was designed to be an assassin rather than a general. The reason he has no legion is bc in order to create a pariah primarch, the emperor had to create Draazen by inverting the polarity of the god soul inside him. (In this fan fic the primarchs souls are actually minor warp entities created by humanity in the past) and create Draazens body without the use of the warp. As a result, Draazens geneseed cannot be replicated to create Astartes. The emperor knew this from the beginning, and made Draazen to be a hunter, not a conquerer. While his brothers conquer worlds and exterminate xenos, Draazen hunts the most powerful denizens & users of the warp in the galaxy. To give an idea as to how powerful these beings are, the super Khrave the lion fought would be on the lower end of the scale in terms of power. There aren’t many pskers in cannon that powerful, so I created several unique Xeno Psykers and warp entities that manifest in real space to make up for it. These entities have psychic power on either a scale so huge, or a nature so unique that a legion would be a liability in their presence. They could simply turn the legion on their primarch with a thought. Draazen hunts these beings in the shadows, traveling in a single DAOT star ship, crewed by loyal AI(he was raised by AI, and only joined the emperor if he let him keep using them in secret) a navigator, and 3 astropaths. Draazen is also not like other, naturally occurring pariahs like the SoS, or the Colexus assassins, who have powerful auras but no way to control it without technology. He is able to control the nature of his aura, but not it’s intensity. He can choose to make you feel anger, fear, pain, etc at will, allowing him to assault the mind and body at the same time in combat. Draazens null aura is so powerful it can lower the emperor and malcadors power level , as well as interfere with the astronomicon should he get too close to it. To counter this, the emperor and Draazens AI companion created Draazen a suit of armor that can contain his aura and control its intensity. With this armor on, his null aura is stored and stock piled. Should he allow none of his energy to escape for a week, it wouldn’t dissipate, it would stay there until Draazen released it. He can do this slowly or all at once, the latter able to give greater demons true death instantly. He uses this power in concert with his twin one handed scythes to cut through warp spawn like a hot knife through butter. Some notable missions hes been on so far: 1. Killing the Saellenarc, the last member of an ancient extra galactic Xenos race that invaded the galaxy during the peak eldar empire and lost a war to them, with only the most powerful still around. The Saellenarc essentially had the unique power of twisting all warp energy around them, with any use of the warp by others resulting in the warp burning them from the inside out. Even Magnus at his crusade power level can’t reverse the effects(the emperor knows how to tho) Draazen killed it by releasing a months worth of his stored aura directly in front of it. 2. Capturing the last old one. Draazen did this by using himself as a lure to lead it into a building secretly created with black stone and covered in rubble to disguise the trap. With the black stone nullifying the warp, it was easy to contain. It now resides in stasis in the black cells. 3. Banishing the demon inside the laer blade Fulgrim uses. Draazen did this entirely on accident. Fulgrim disrespected tf out of him and challenged him to a duel. Due to his role, Draazen is one of if not the best fighter out of all the primarchs, with only a few like the lion, Russ and the angel that can match his skill with a blade, and none that can counter his aura should he use it on them. During the duel, without any understanding of Draazens purpose or nature, Fulgrim taunted Draazen, saying he has no purpose in the crusade except to pick up his brothers trash, and that he was the only primarch unworthy of a legion. In response, Draazen mocked Fulgrims skill and pride, saying, “I have no legion because I do not need one to fulfill my purpose, you were handed yours because you’d get no where without them. The true test of worth isn’t in your ability to claim your birthright, it’s in the knowledge and power you earn. Our father deemed me worthy to know secrets you may never be told. Our father deemed me worthy to destroy foes he’d never send you to face. Our father deemed me worthy of knowing his grand plan. He didn’t even deem you worthy of knowing what I am; or what I do.” This caused Fulgrim to lose his shit and allows the demon inside the blade to influence him into trying to actually kill Draazen. the fact Draazens aura was fully contained allowed Fulgrim to leverage the power boost from the demon sword and wound Draazen. This causes Draazen to release 1/10 of his aura on Fulgrim at point blank range, forcing the demon out of the sword. Once the demon is free, Fulgrim passes out and Draazen leads it away from his brother before releasing the rest of his aura and giving the demon the mother of all banishments. Holy shit this comment is long. I highkey typed wayyyy to much but I didn’t do all that just to delete it. If you actually read all of this lmk what you think

[@tomhatton2512]

Love this video. Speaking of Love... My theory is that there is one part of the Emporer that's not expressed in a certain way which is what one of these Primarchs would have been styled around and that's love. There is love for humanity from Vulcan and love for their legions by all of them but not a pure kind of love for another being. The other embodiment is diplomacy. That could be for say primarch 2. Here goes... I think the diplomacy primarch ends up fighting lots of greenskin and ends up teaming up with Eldar and once it really gets going he has 11 with him too. This is enough to piss off the Emporer who summons 2 and 11 back to Terra. On arrival not only has 2 created a full on peace treaty and has Eldar in his battle force but 11 has only gone and fallen in love with an Eldar Princess. Maybe even there's some wacky half elf nonsense at play. This enrages the Emporer who orders Russ and the Custodes to take them into the cells but in the commotion Russ kills 2. In know it's far fetched but it's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

[@VoltairePrime]

I like to believe that in those rooms one of them has a Primarch in Stasis, which was the “Forgotten”. Because he was slowly forgotten to almost everyone via time/mind wipes/or something else like that. Due to the Horus Heresy and the 10k years passing by. And the other one which is the “Purged”, has a Coffin where his body resides, because I sorely believe this one died during the Rangdan Xenocide, and the lost of a Primarch would’ve been disastrous for the crusade. So he purged him from history.

[@ianharrison5758]

I can see the 11th primarch being in stasis in the dark cells. Even if he doesn’t do anything, just knowing he’s alive would be insane. My headcannon is that the 11th, (and maybe even the 2nd but probably not) was put in stasis to be part of a doomsday contingency. The terminatus decree would be to release the 11th, and at that point you can go all kinds of directions with how a story can go. One of my homebrew lost primarchs is a techno path that specializes in AI. I didn’t make him for the table top, just to fill in holes in the lore, so he doesn’t actually have a legion and instead basically went around collecting, destroying, hiding or reverse engineering powerful tech.

[@TK199999]

There is some lore that suggests at least some of the prisoners in the Black Cells are the other Perpetuals who turned against the EoM. They are in the cells, because as Perpetuals they are almost impossible to kill. Oh and all memory of the 2nd and 11th Primarch's were eventually removed from the minds of all remaining Primarch's by Malcador. So that they only remember they existed and something terrible happen with them. Though based on Horus's reaction to them during the Hersey. Malcador may have implanted the idea during the mind wipe, that it was probably the best option at the time. We also know it was Dorn and Guillmen who saved the surviving members of the lost two legions. Successfully convincing the EoM that it was the Primarch's that failed and not the legionaries. So the survivors were absorbed into Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. Probably after having their minds wiped and their gene-seed switch out to their new legion. But if the lost and forgotten are in the Cells or that place Dorn found. They may be in stasis for all time.

[@willy.b.b3427]

My head cannon is they were on campaign together somewhere, and the 11th was up to no good, whatever that may be. The 2nd were a rather nasty lot but were loyal and didn't take kindly to whatever nonsense the 11th was prattling on with and turned on them real quick, maybe even too quick. The Emperor heard and sent Russ to end this bloody incursion by killing the second primarch. The 11th were a pretty big legion and fairly dispersed to spread whatever shit they're up to so the 2nd can't kill them quick enough before the wolves get there and the tides of the battle turn, until russ starts to see just whats going on and realises he's killing the wrong guys. But it's too late and most of the second is dead. Russ then has to get reinforced by the only close expeditionary fleet, belonging to the ultramarines maybe even headed by guilliman. Together they crush the remaining 11th legion elements. The second legion is in ruins, they number less than 1000 marines after fighting the 11th and then the 6th for so long. Their primarch is dead or in stasis mortally injured, maybe by russ? The remaining 2nd legion are absorbed into the 13th because they, now, really don't like the space wolves for obvious reasons. And the 11th is completely destroyed and their primarch killed. The emperor, ironically, sent russ to kill the wrong guy. And then russ, ironically, did kill the wrong guy, maybe. The Emperor has to hide whatever shit the 11th was doing to state this off, because it must've been pretty bad. And he has to hide the fact that he sent Russ after the wrong guy. He also has to hide that fact that marines can actually turn on each other extremely savagely, because at this time it's not something that's happened before.

[@MADSAHAD]

First I want to say, great video. The two lost Primarchs, The Lost and The Purged or The Forgotten and The Expunged etc. Can we all come to an agreement that the Primarchs in themselves are and were a sliver reflection of the Emperor, as if the Emperor fractured himself into 20 different images of himself of 20 aspects of himself. Each one with a separate and unique role to play in the grand scheme. If we can agree on that, than let us go to the next step. Each Primarch is an aspect of the Emperor but in microcosm, the two lost Primarch are two aspects of the Emperor that the Emperor may not want the rest of the universe know about or they themselves are or could be direct opponents to his grand Scheme either being to closely in thinking like the Emperor or in complete opposition to him. Meeting one could be so like the Emperor that the Emperor worried that he had made his own usurper without the usurper knowing that they were going to be a usurper later in time and the other would fight me at every step or be that thorn in his side every single day. One openly opposing him while the other covertly/ unconscious opposing him. So the Emperor, being the Emperor eliminated them before things got out of hand. Some would say, "Well, if he knew that about the 2nd and the 11th, what about Horus? Why wait and allow Horus to do all that what he did?!?" Simply, Horus was pushed over the "edge" by Chaos where the 2nd and the 11th weren't. Its the difference between ticking time bombs and a pressure switch mine. One is preset to go off after a perset time the other needs someone or something to push on the pressure plate. The 2nd and 11th could have been seen as Clear and Present Dangers while the others were seen as problems for another time. Just my opinions 😊

[@PhantomSinger1]

Three ideas came to mind about the meaning of those doors. 1) They are a prop meant to point readers, through Dorne, to the Lost Primarchs. It's possible there's nothing more to it, but where's the fun in that? 2) The doors have some heavy duty warding mechanisms built into them which are difficult to replace, which is why they were kept. They could be used to keep a rogue Primarch imprisoned in their room to be dealt with at a later date. If that's the case, wouldn't every Primarch's chambers be warded? Did the Emperor expect something to happen where such precautions would be needed? 3) If the purged ones were indeed executed or imprisoned in the lowest bowels of the dungeons, why preserve the doors when all other traces have been erased or 'destroyed'? Nostalgia? What makes more sense if if one or both of them agreed to serve the Imperium in secret to atone for whatever happened. Staying within the sprawling palace would give them access to people and networks while hidden passageways would let them move about unseen.

[@Pannenberg]

I have only just begun diving into Warhammer lore, but I love these big mysteries. I hope its not just that they fell to chaos in a manner similar to Horus. I have a million different scenarios in my head because its fun to think about (to the extent I hope that we never fully know their fate, and are only given hints). But one scenario for my head canon is that one of the primarchs had something similar to techno mancy, or the ability to speak and interface with machines to such an extent that, not knowing of the history of the men of iron, made contact with a lingering AI and combined with it. And/or that this technomancy was of such an extent that the emperor ended up fearing it might damage his position with mars as omnissiah as this primarch's abilities were such that he could compete if not supplant the emperor's position. And for the other, because of the theories that primarchs have some warp entities stuffed into them, or at the very least warp mechanics going on that the emperor either stole from the chaos gods or whatever, that one of the missing primarchs was of such a hybrid between warp /soul and flesh that his specific nature among primarchs could provide the Necrons a key to understand how to finally transition back into the flesh. And that this Primarch in particular, given that primarchs seem to have been scattered to worlds that fit their natures, was scattered to a Necron tomb world and in fact was either partially or fully inhabited by some hitherto unknown necron. Like I said, all pure speculation and no doubt I'm missing something in the lore that would prohibit it, but its fun to think about.

[@michelletheia9853]

My head cannon has been that one was raised by benevolent xenon, maybe even growing up on an eldar craft world. He took command of his legion and was happy to battle orcs and mindless threats, but refused to attack non-belligerent eldar, maybe even defended his home craftworld from another legion. The other I’d always thought maybe landed within the eye, and was too corrupted to be of use to anyone, maybe even the first primarch to embrace chaos. Hell, what if the rangdan xenocide was a cover story, a real event blown out of proportion to hide that the real war was against this daemon primarch and his legions of chaotic followers, with some of his legion turning to follow him. In the end this gear daemon primarch was destroyed by E (and his sword), and all memory of the event removed from the primarchs’ and legionaries’ minds

[@Nyghtking]

For fun I had an idea that was just a conversion of the Doom Slayer as one of the lost primarchs, thrown into a chaos world and empowered by Malal, this primarchs only desire is to destroy chaos and nothing more, being granted incredible resistant to chaos and psyker powers, a scatter bolter that will never run out of ammo and can cut through demons, and a chain sword that can cleave through demons with ease. His issue was that he doesn't care about anything other then destroying chaos, so it was difficult for the emperor to get him to do anything, especially when he isn't suppose to know about chaos in the first place, so he's simply kept in stasis until such time as the emperor deems fit to release him.

[@Dreadbringer]

A primarch is way more powerful than the Doom slayer

[@Nyghtking]

@@Dreadbringer No not really.

[@davidgreener8774]

If II or XI landed among the Elder then that would go a long way to explaining how the Corpse Lord of Terra, was able to access the Webway. Unless the Emperor had allies among the ancient Elder of 10 thousand years ago.

[@Jon-ef4hh]

@@Nyghtking Can Doomslayer bench press a few thousand metric tons of walking weapon emplacement? Granted, Doomslayer is strong, but has he been stepped on one, with the pilot intentionally putting the weight on him?

[@coltonstergue7079]

Also don’t forget that after the battle for Tarra the dark cells where empty and things got out…

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

One being the guy Janis and Horus fought at their landing camp, right? Guy with the bio engineered weapons.

[@Chadegon1693]

Not all cells were empty tho

[@coltonstergue7079]

@@Chadegon1693 yeah true but who’s saying that a primarch is not going to take the chance to escape while a war is happening outside his front door.

[@Chadegon1693]

@@coltonstergue7079 oh nothing. In fact i think he would be a prime candidate to escape. Still (thankfully) not everything escaped

[@Dontreallycare5]

I think it is highly likely they are kept alive specifically because their legions were sparred and still seen as useful - because executing them would create psychic backlash that would wound their entire legion. The memory wipe might not even be specifically to keep the primarch's away, but rather is an extremely long running experiment to see if those legions will be psychically detached from their origin primarch eventually, and become attached to another primarch they don't necessarily share genetic heritage with. The Forgotten might have even volunteered for such a duty if they were not interested in leading their legion and simply refused to do such . . . perhaps even specifically created to be something of a pacifist - and for the young Imperium, him convincing his brothers to stop the crusade on morale grounds would be just as much a threat to the Emperor as them turning to Chaos . . . . but eventually after the crusade has finally succeeded, they would become an incredibly useful tool for stopping future civil wars.

[@oliverbutterfield9844]

What a great setting this would be for the next Warhammer Quest instalment - Warhammer Quest: Vaults of Terra

[@kelep1992]

Ive been reading the horus heresy and im on the first heretic about the word bearers and lorgar. And theres qutie a few moments where the lost primarchs get mentioned, but its always something in the line of "dont mention the lost primarchs because lorgar will get too upset with grief" which just always made me think they were just dead or turned somehow.

[@elinoirsmythe224]

This is genuinely creepy! Imagine being Rogal, discovering this and demanding the truth from Malcador, then Malcador tells you it was all your idea in the first place. What the heck.

[@briharrisWarhmmer40kfan]

I love the character basilio fo from the siege of Terra books he is by far one of the most interesting and well written new characters

[@doomguy9049]

Yeah same. His involvement begins in one of the short stories about Horus invading the random lifeless planet he's hiding out on and capturing him but almost being killed in the process and it's p interesting too. Overall he's a really good and creepy but somewhat relatable character.

[@jwb590]

I imagine GW has deliberately made it so that Fabius Bile never comes upon geneseed from one of the lost primarchs, cultivated from a dead Ultramarine or IF…

[@jameslflowers]

One (the 11th) fell to the mind-control of the Rangdan with his whole legion and killed the other (2nd) in an ambush, then the legion was destroyed by the Emperor's order. Most likely by the Space Wolves. Or maybe captured and brought to the Dark Cells. This is why they are referred to as the Forgotten and the Purged.

[@jamesbaurus5928]

You know that's probably the most reasonable explanation I've heard of the lost primarchs in a while. If they ever do tell the story of the Randgan Xenocide, this is a leading candidate for the plot. Rangdan+a whole legion and primarch definitely explains why the Dark Angels w/ super weapons and the Space Wolves had to both be called in to deal with it.

[@darkhighwayman1757]

I've often thought the Rangdan were involved too.

[@jsn1252]

Except that, according to "chamber at the end of memory," whatever they did was a greater threat to the imperium than the HH. Falling to xenos doesn't even come close to that.

[@vortex_1336]

@@jsn1252 Not just killed by Xenos. Corrupted by them to where they joined the Rangdan. Maybe one died and the other was imprisoned with the Emperor hoping to discover a cure one day.

[@MRFlackAttack1]

I like to think that the fates of the two missing Primarchs and their legions were tied together in some way. That there was a flaw in the purged legion’s geneseed that necessitated their being ordered purged. All but the forgotten legion’s Primarch accepted the Emperor’s decree and he tried to stop the purge and to resist the Emperor’s cruel sentence. The other Legions and their Primarchs did nothing to support this and now attempt to “forget” this secret shame that one brother and his legion did what the others didn’t have the strength or courage to do, oppose their father-emperor’s will in defence of their brothers.

[@georgem9981]

Lost primarch theory People know that there are two lost primarchs, but no one knows what truly has happened with them. And so here’s my hypothesis & thoughts along with it, the reality behind the curtains. *Hypothesis* *1.* My first hypothesis is that The lost primarchs were a wayward reinforcement or free survivors. So a while ago, I had a thought that the lost primarchs were Emperor’s plan of saving the humanity from the brink of the annihilation. I hypothesized that Emperors would wage war upon the ruinous powers. Which would end in either weakening of humanity or the end of both ruinous powers & humanity. If the weakening of the Emperium would have happened, the Emperium would have required new forces to combat the ruinous powers, to continue & win the war. Which is exactly where the lost primarchs would come in. Emperor would create two primarchs and send them off, into another galaxy. To conquer it and return back to the milky-way Galaxy when the time is right. They would return as a reinforcement to the emperium in its dire time. Or the lost primarchs would perhaps return as the free humanity, who would reclaim the legacy, left by Emperium after the war with ruinous powers. When both sides no longer exist. In order for this to go as planned, Emperor, changed, altered and erased the memory of everyone else. Making everyone belive that the lost primarchs were either traitors or failures. Who were executed & expunged out of the imperial records. All of that made as a backup plan for the survival of the humanity as a race. *2.* [Warning! This is a mad theory] After watching this video, I’ve come up with another hypothesis. A hypothesis about Emperor locking away 11th primarch for the future. The Lost primarchs number is 11, subsequently it is also a sacred number of a Lost God called Malal, also known as Malice. Considering that there is a jail-chamber under emperor’s palace, with the number 11. It could have been that the 11th primarch. I hypothesis that the 11th primarch became a champion or a prince or an avatar of the lost God, Malal, also known as Malice. Which could have happened when the warp rift were opened in the lab with tubes that contained the Primarchs. Or perhaps the when scattering occurred. 11th were locked up to be cured later. When the war with the ruinous powers are over and said powers are no more. So by that logic, the warp powers within the 11th should be neutralized. Warp would still be within him, but would not have a tremendous effect. That is, if the Emperor’s plan was to kill ruinous powers by starvation. However, there is another possibility. And this is where “God Emperor” comes into the picture. Emperor locked up the 11th primarch, for the future. Because Emperor secretly knew that he must become a God in order to save humanity. As it is the only one way. So he tricked everyone into believing that he does not want to become a God. Which means that the Emperor deliberately & purposely cause the destruction of Monarchia. In order for Lorgar to betray the Emperor and subsequently make Emperium religious. Emperor knew that he must become a God, not only to save the humanity but also to cleanse the 11th. The cleansing would have happened By replacing an essence a God within 11th. For example, if 11th would have the essence of Malice within him, than the Emperor would have replaced it with his own. That would occur when Emperor would have become a God. All of that, in order for the 11th to be bound to Emperor and not a chaos God, for him to be a loyalist. (Bit of explanation. If a living being within Warhammer 40k is a vessel. Then it can fit in both the essence of a God and the warp powers. Example would be Mortarion, the primarch of the Death Guard. He is filled with warp powers but has elements of Nurgle within him. I believe that is done through imbuing Mortarion with essence of Nurgle. Thus granting, said elements of the nurgle, specifically Mortarion’s wings.) However, this also raises a lot of question. Specifically, why did Emperor lock up the 11th in a jail and not kill him. I believe that he could kill him because of three reasons. The first reason is that the 11th is his son. And so Emperor couldn’t kill the 11th Because he is his father. Which is the reason why he could not have brought an end upon the 11th. The second reason is subsequent of the first one, which is, that if Emepror would have killed his own son, as such action would have led to rebellion and revolt amongst people of the emperium. And so the emperium would have met its demise shortly after its birth. The Third reason is, Emperor couldn’t kill his 11th son, but could let him roam the galaxy. Because if one of the primarchs are a spawn of warp (a demon prince or what have you.), than the people of the emeprium would have questioned the both authority and competence of the Emperor. Thus causing quite a stir, as such would have caused a Emperium to stand upon a shaking ground. Which would lead to its demise in the long run. If the 11th would roaming the Galaxy and being a spawn of warp. It would be the spark that would ignite a keg full of gunpowder, a keg of riots and rebellions. Along with ruinous powers & warp effecting people of the emperium. As for the 2nd primarch, he could has been killed by the 11th, which is why there are no records of him. Emperor decided to expunged him too as it would hidden the truth about 2nd demise & 11th being a spawn of warp. In order to avoid the shaking ground that would have lead to the demise o the emperium. **The Reallity of it all.** But the reality is far less complex and way more boring. Both GW and Fandom are lost & confused about the two primarchs. Regarding the Fandom, people will always speculates and come up with own theories for what have happened with the primarchs. And what have the lost primars done to deserve to be expunged and executed. Or why there are no records of them anywhere. But no one will know for sure. Regarding GW, it also has information about the lost primarchs. Both within the WH40k universe and outside said universe. The reason to that is that the lost primarchs are a reference to the two ancient Roman companies. Those companies were annihilated and it is not known by who, the company numbers were lost to the history. And I suspect, since there are nothing about the lost companies that are left within the history. GW simply has nothing to write about the lost primarchs. As a conclusion to this. Of course this leaves A LOT of free space for the fantasy, but considering that GW, at this point, are confused about primarchs I doubt that they ever would create something them.

[@hankkaufman1900]

Maybe that's why bellisario's has some of those primary space Marines followed because he used their Gene seed

[@athatcher9367]

Okay, given how much it took for the Emperor to be willing to kill Horus… I don’t think he’d kill them or let them die (if he could at all help it). I also have trouble seeing geneseed problems (which seems like it’d only be a problem for a legion) being a reason to kill or imprison a PRIMARCH unless it was something that affected the primarch themself very badly. So, the way I see it, either they are imprisoned for breaking some rule (perhaps refusing to fight or some mental issue that was so bad even big E wasn’t willing to use them in combat), literally just going missing into the warp or deep space, or were killed by something else… I have trouble seeing anything at that point in time really killing them though, save another primarch or a very anti-climactic ship malfunction… So I have to imagine that if they are dead then those cells have their bodies or they’re alive and in stasis or agreed to stay there and are living a life of luxury… (or maybe one of them got nabbed by the dark eldar… which I shudder at the thought of) plot twist, they were Alpharius and Omegon all along! Or other plot twist: the terminus protocol lets them out of their cages.

[@Knights_Oath]

The last mention of the II and his legion was the Rangdan Xenocides. I think he and most if not all of his legion was destroyed in the conflict. But nothing has ever been revealed about the XI or his legion as well. The XI could have refused the Emperor outright and even if he was stolen away like Angron and still refused to join the Emperor. Rather then let a Primarch run free across the galaxy he may have been sealed in the Vaults of Terra. His legion may have been put to the sword by the Wolves when they rebelled after they chose to follow their Primarch.

[@MightyGalvatron]

Maybe one of the lost primarchs grew up on the Rangdan homeworld and sided with them against the Imperium.

[@ruipinho619]

The Forgotten and the Purged. I guess the Purged was infected by the rangdan, hence why Leman Russ was sent to execute them (being the Emperor's Executioner) and the other one took issue with how the great crusade was being dealt with and how his brother primarch was taken care of, and was locked up in the Dungeon and "Forgotten" My personal fan fic anyway

[@LARGO125]

If XI's legion were wiped out, it wouldn't have been by the wolves. Unless they as well as their Primarch Leman had their minds wiped immediately after. More like the Dark Angel's dealt with them if that's what happened.

[@ruipinho619]

@@LARGO125 i believe the wolves had their minds wiped, even Leman. Dark Angels were there too, so their minds would be wiped as well. I think i remember reading somewhere the wolves saying their minds were wiped. Could be wrong though. But definitely remember Leman Russ saying he was sent to execute one of his brothers.

[@Dreadbringer]

@@ruipinho619 the wolfking has never killed a primarch

[@ra1d3r9]

😁🤟 I like the mystery the two lost sons. The XI must be potent enough to warrant an incarceration for this long even the Emperor decided to take his chance keeping Angron or Curze instead.🤔 Maybe, the XI has some involvement of disbanding the II that cuase some kind of breakdown or open up in XI later, and too risky to wake him up during the the HH event without a close supervision by the Emperor. I read GW's post about the shattered II legion prior to your vids. Intriguing speculation as ever Wolf Lord.

[@stewartthorpe2533]

Love these type of lore videos by you. Keep them coming

[@Presbiter]

At least one was slain by Russ as commanded by the emperor. Stated in "The Burning of Prospero"

[@chrismulivanu4866]

One of lost primarch must have embodied the Emperors Will for War. The other probably embodied the Emperors Ambitious Will. That’s why they had to lock them away.

[@mio87]

I think mystery about these two Primarch was nice when we player can create own SM chapter. But now I think most people nodays want to know the lore and story. I think that GW should tell the story and maybe using it to present 40k lore. If Curze, Alpharius, Omega and Horus are dead then CSM can get new primarch in their collection.

[@joshhirth8933]

I like to think this was another plan within a plan by the Emperor + Malcador. The two “lost” primarchs agreed to be removed from their legion and put into containment to return and help the Imperium in their most desperate hour. But the plan went wrong when the Emperor become contained on the Golden Throne and Malcador died and was no longer to tell anyone of their location.

[@locomastero]

I have a theory, the lost Primarchs were among the firsts found by the Emperor, BUT they were already corrupted by the forces of Chaos or other entities, so they were locked away so no one could know about what happened to them, and to keep the secret well hidden because of the possible consequences this could bring to the wider Imperium and the other Primarchs.

[@ChimpFromSpace]

My headcanon is that out of the 20, the 2nd and 11th primarchs ended up being sent to xenos homeworlds. Perhaps leading to one of them sympathizing with a particular xenos race. Maybe one of them refused an order, or maybe it was just Big E, and space Gandalf simply decided they were a liability.

[@highlordtedpool6081]

I run and write a Homebrew chaos undivided legion. And there leader is a fallen custody. So I'm absolutely loving all the stuff you're laying down.

[@V0IV0DE]

In the art that Malcador is seated upon a Throne(not the Golden Throne) also there are two skulls with the numbers II and XI.

[@sm2649]

It is referenced in the new space wolves book- Wolftime, around chapter 19 I think that Space wolves did indeed take exterminate one of the lost legions

[@ReverendPONT]

I think they'd be kept in stasis like Guilleman was so the 11th Primarch would more than likely not have aged a day since imprisonment. Easier to handle if you're put to sleep and kept asleep.

[@josephjohnson5415]

I like to think that one was a pacifist... which the emperor might see as the ultimate crime. This primarch could have been a good hearted paragon unwilling to take even a xenos life. And his crime is a ceasefire and unwillingness to massacre defenseless xenos and their human friends. The second one should be some sort of abnormality. Like a blank that threatens even the emperor. It wouldn't be hard to see why you might lock up your son if that son could someday yield a sword against you and all your psychic might would be for nothing.

[@gadrielvanorion9872]

yeah a pacifist primarch was also on my list of possible things it would perfectly make sense to have this one too, primarchs are supposed to be peak humanity killing him wont make sense since he rly isnt interested in performing his duty at that point you keep the guy frozen until you can have this guy around cuz id imagine having pacifist primarch dude gathering ppl to freeze the great crusade would srsly fuck the emperor the other being a blank OR like angron but without needing the nails to be a bastard also makes sense

[@jamesbaurus5928]

I like the juxtaposition of one being a complete pyscho and one being a pacifist. But for the psycho it has to be obscene like he kills anyone who gets near him all the time, always otherwise E keeping Angron makes no sense.

[@Mobius01010]

im betting they were like alpharius and omegon, only instead of twins, they were triplets, with the emperor himself being the third of them, so there would be one thats too light, and one thats too dark, and one thats the appropriate mix for humanity's survival...

[@rogerbrownreacts8528]

I always imagine one saying "I didn't vote for a Emperor". Notice there is not a funny Primarch...intentionally

[@jamesbaurus5928]

@@rogerbrownreacts8528 I voted for Kodos

[@tomdolan9761]

If the memories of Primarchs can be altered why were the two lost Primarchs not rehabilitated using these strong alterations of memory

[@RA10H56]

Yes, they can seemingly retcon everything..but not that...lazy writing...deluding the product

[@blackmanta96]

Maybe it's something else totally, they died because big E f'd up hard and now he regret, he kept their stuff like a parent would, would explain why the legions where spared and also intense grief and anger against big E could explain why he wiped the memory from the other primarchs

[@doomguy9049]

Yeah could be one succumbed to mutation or something that destroyed him in a way the Emperor couldn't admit to

[@eichler721]

Great stuff I love these parts of the lore that have us guessing and theorizing on the setting

[@Shirtss]

The story that has always made the most sense in my head: One(or both) simply did not want to bow to his father and fought him from day 1 with whatever army’s/planets/empires they had amassed up until being found. Either fighting to the end or being captured

[@helicaldota]

maybe the reason Tyrannids are still not here in their entirety is one of the lost legions holding the line out there in the Void

[@kamaeq]

@@helicaldota Or the Tyranid threat is overstated. For example, the Tyranid slowpoke groups left without enough supplies so they are consuming each other along the way.

[@shiverman8]

What if the two lost primarchs were intentionally wiped from the memories of everyone like the Sentry from Marvel Comics? What if they were to be released as part of the terminus decree? Or were back up weapons?

[@bernardotorres5274]

I do believe that this cells are for the Primarchs, but not in the way we imagine. Let’s remember that the Emperor not only created the primarchs to be the generals of his crusades, but also replacement for the other Eternals that abandoned his plan. To the Emperor the Primarchs (even though his own flesh and blood) were nothing but tools on his campaign we even see that sentiment when Guilliman returned to Terra and went to talk to his father, instead of a warm welcome a father would give to a lost son he loved, he treated Guilliman in a cold way similar to how someone reacts when they finally found the tool they were searching. To the Emperor the Primarchs are just tools, however they are irreplaceable tools. Now if we are to be believe the theories that Primarchs not only having some of his father abilities but their very souls are actually minor Gods of the Warp, it could explain why the Emperor doesn’t discard/replace them like any other tool, because they are way to unique and powerful. This will put into question what are the missing primarchs and what actions lead them to being forgotten. From what we know they did not betray the Emperor because if they did they would have been written down as traitors, and they were not they were called “ThePurge” and “The Forgotten”. The Purged or the Second Primarch I liked to believe that he was heavily mutated or that his body reacted poorly to the soul of the god that was bestowed on him. This the Emperor was forced to purge the body but keep the God Soul in order to try and create a new body. The IX Primarch or “The Forgotten” I like to believe that his fate was either that we was consumed in the warp when their containers were spread across the Galaxy, thus becoming one with the Warp and he manifests himself through the Legion of the Damned and he is the actual force behind the many Saints/Emperial demons instead of the Emperor himself (or one of his shards). Let’s remember another name given to damned souls is also forgotten souls. I do Believe the IX cell is the one that holds a future body of that Primarch if Malchador and the Emperor are ever in the need to retrieve him from the Warp, although at this point (if we follow my theory) his aid in the form of “The Legion of the Damned” is far more useful to them in that way. Anyway this is just my speculation, you tell me what you think.

[@GRBoi1993]

I have to go to the doctor and then this dropped so here I am not moving until I’ve have my Rho for the day haha

[@kiltedcripple]

I don't think they're jailed, I think they're working clandestinely. The other Primarchs were mind wiped so they could not, even under psychic torture, give up their brothers' missions.

[@ianharrison5758]

As much as I love that theory, it is going to take one hell of a writer to pull it off. There’s a lot of hard questions to answer. What are the primarchs doing?, Are they working alone, or with a Legion? If they were free during the heresy, why did they not return to Terra to defend it? Why have they not been seen since their erasure, not even a whisper of a rumor of a sighting? There’s such a lack of information abt the lost primarchs that crafting a narrative that explains why they are so important and why they needed to be kept secret is going to be hard as fuck. My fan theory is that the 2nd primarch is using some spicy dark age tech to travel outside the galaxy and find the body of the Tyranid Hive mind. The 11th primarch is in the vaults of terra, and the terminus decree is to release him and let that wildcard throw the chaos gods off for a while. Neither primarch would be any more powerful or capable than the others, but they would be extremely specialized to fit this role. The primarch sent the scouts to find the source of Tyranids might be an incredible navigator able to make his way through the warp even outside the galaxy. The 11th might just be unpredictable as fuck and serve as a good way to fuck with the architect of fate

[@sirlaggzzalot]

One of the lost primarchs posed a threat even more grave than Horus My guess is some AI and STC shenanigans

[@gravitatemortuus1080]

Or maybe they found out who the emperor really was. Maybe the emperor is not who he claims to be. Or maybe he found about what happened to the thunder warriors and was like, wait a minute is that planned for us?

[@ianharrison5758]

@@gravitatemortuus1080 The emperor: It is now

[@larsickenroth7169]

You sir, have been putting out consistently great content for quite some time. Always great analysis and explanation of the WH universe with a great voice. Now, I've been thinking about making this suggestion for a while, but I know it could perhaps come off wrong. Believe me: that's not my intent. You're already doing amazing stuff. That being said: I would love to hear what an episode would sound like in your own 'flow'. The voice is so good, but sometimes it tends to 'over-emphasize' every sentence. That's totally unnecessary: the content is so good, we believe you! Again: coming from a place of love for what you're doing. And maybe I'm seeing this all wrong, but hearing a lot of episodes these past months I really thought about that a lot. It would just be that extra-x-factor. Thanks!

[@thomascoolidge2161]

I believe one of the primarchs fell to chaos in front of all his brothers revealing the entire truth of chaos, the warp, and the source of how the big E came about many of his powers (gifts from the chaos gods). In a fit of rage and empowered by chaos he attacks the Emperor and seriously wounds him. The other lost saves the big E by sacrificing himself either in combat and dying (mirroring Horus/sanguines) or by giving up his power (maybe he’s a perpetual like Vulkan or super psychic like magnus)to save the emperor. Russ, Dorn, and Roboute then hunt that primarch and either captured or killed him. After learning about Chaos gods and how big E got his powers, Dorn and Roboute want to forget it less they fall down the same path. I believe this all happened on that planet with the chaos gate that Horus went to to get his Chaos gods power up where he faced millenniums of trials by each god in the warp. The emporer made them forget that place and for some reason that failed on one of the lost primarchs who took his brothers back there to the gate. I can see the whole story in my head but I’m not a writer…

[@chadcuckproducer1037]

I've always said it's possible any of the other primarchs could be perpetual. They would have to die to find out. Also, any of the dead ones could return since Vulkan didn't immediately regenerate sometimes.

[@TheHobgoblyn]

If the Legions were sparred, then it is may well be a near certainty that some of those 2nd/3rd founding chapters and chapters formed from them that are officially born from the Ultramarines were almost certainly actually carrying the geneseed of the lost legions.

[@bingorobins1010]

My interest on 40k lore has NEVER been at this high of a peak... now I really want to know what's behind those doors.

[@priest0701]

Back in the late nineties I was reading White Dwarf and they had an Mechanics working on a stasis container with a black armored flame adorned space marine. He is trying to puzzle out the readings on this and the other stasis container’s and an Inquisitor comes down to see how it coming along. There was some dialog and then the adept realizes and says a loud something along the lines of, the reading are false, they are not sleeping but actually dead. That is when the Inquisitor says something like that is the problem with us getter he the best techs and then he shoots him in the back of the head.

[@RSBurgener]

It's been written that the Emperor built redundancies among the abilities of the Primarchs; the siegecraft of both Dorn and Perturabo, for example. In that sense, there is no other truly great psyker other than Magnus. And with all of the psychic traps in that section of the palace, I think it's an excellent chance that Number 11 was the other great Psyker. I'm pretty confident about that being the truth.

[@ianharrison5758]

Or a massively powerful blank

[@RSBurgener]

@@ianharrison5758 ooo that would be badass.

[@peasley5449]

Now i wonder if they saw something of the future with Chaos and the Heresy and if they had some way to fight it but the Emperor realized this had to happen so he kept them on ice until they where REALLY needed. Just a thought I could be totally wrong lol. Would love to find out one day

[@vicstanfieldshire7754]

When Malcador is speaking to Dorn; Dorn alludes that fighting Horus would be easier if he had the backing of the lost two. Malcador immediately rebuked Dorn for mentioning them. I don’t remember which HH novel that was in though. The Primarchs and The Sigillite seem to know what they did and what happened to them. I was wondering if Magnus performed something Similar to what he did for Morningstar and Shai’Tan. Or that the legios with genetic mutations were the ones that absorbed members of the II and XI legion. One idea I like is that they are the story of Cain and Abel; the first instance of fratricide, the XI Primarch was infected and lost to the Rangdan hive mind, he killed the II Primarch, then he was marked and imprisoned within the black cells. Their respective legios being divided amongst the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and some say the Ultramarines.

[@SheedRanko]

I was considering the possibility of the Emperor to posses bodies of one of the lost primarchs.

[@John-jc3ty]

emperor creates 18 primarchs but numbers them up to 20 in order to make the others fear turning him. ends up wrong.

[@barryvale7033]

I had one of my missing primarchs called Voltan and he was jailed by the emperor because he kept argueing with the emperor on exterminating Alien species. He kept argueing that some Aliens would make excellent allies rather destroying them out right. In the end Voltan went behind the Emperors back and saved some Aliens races and kept them safe in his zones of compliance but the Emperor found out and sent Horus to bring him back for trail and Russ to destroy the Alien races saved by Voltan. It was Horus and Russ that convinced the Emperor not to destroy Voltans legion as Voltan had surrended his legion over to Horus and Russ with out a fight as he did not want to fight his Brothers due to him loving them both. Voltan excepted his punishment and his legion was split up and spread among the other legions. My other primarch was called Genggis Hadesaki and he was a very brutal priatelord and had a massive space fleet befor he joining the Emperor. He was also a bit of a skitso and very brutal but some times kind and he was know for stealing from the other legions he was also know for giving gifts to his brothers and then argueing with them and the Emperor on every thing regarding space fleets. But he did admire Horus and it was only Horus that Genggis would sort of listen to. His down fall came when he had argued with some of his brothers regarding a complaince of a world and when in his eyes the complance was reciveing stiff resitance he basicly said i told you all to do it my way and you all refused so he refused to aid his brothers in the battle its only that Ferrus came to there aid that disaster was prevented Genggis was orderd to meet the emperor but he refused and destroyed the ship bearing the message. So Horus was sent and Genggis done the unthinkable and fired on Horus fleet resulting in a mega space battle. The Battle lasted a month of hit and run and all out assults but in the end Genggis flag ship went super nova with all hands onboard his fleet was destroyed or captured and some think Genggis escaped in a small skiff but most belive he died on his flagship screaming insults at Horus and then pleading via vid screen befor his ship went super nova. Either way he has never been seen since.

[@jaychase3610]

Reading on the wiki 40k page it says it was accidentally contained in a copy of an Infantrymans primer that both the 2nd and 11th participated in the Rangdan Xenocides and when "Subject 11" is typed in it does lead to the Lost Primarchs page

[@andruchuk]

Given capsule XI is the one that Horus damages before they're scattered by the rift, my guess is at least some physical/mental warp corruption from exposure. The nature of the warp was kept under wraps during that time, so it would make sense to purge/redact to keep the nature of the warp hidden. What primarch XI became may indeed be subject XI, captured but not destroyed. A primarch with wings is passable, but maybe not one with tentacles and extra eyes.

[@russellortmann5348]

Malcador and Dorn, singing: “We don’t talk about Two no, no no no…”

[@JoeSmith-mb8mi]

Yo these videos are bad ass Good job dude

[@calebcollins5887]

I think they’ll keep it secret until they need a new way to garner attention, like with Guillermens resurrection. Perhaps if they decide to go with the theory that each primarch has a warp god in them then it could be that at least one of the lost learned of this too soon.

[@iamcaesar6741]

The Emperor can time travel forward or backward. If John Gramaticus and Oll have a Xenos time traveling device imagine what Xenos or Old Night technology devices he has to travel forward and backwards in time. He’s probably trying to find a way to save the 2nd and 11th, they probably in time locked stasis pods in those cells or probably those are doorways to a multi verse timeline that favors the Emperor that have the 2nd and 11th primarchs choosing to be loyal to the Emperor? Too much Doctor Who stuff … 😂