Should Fighting Game Stories Matter? | Castle Super Beast 274 Clip

[@vulpinepanther2001]

This is a very interesting microcosm for their personalities. Pat's infatuation with cold and direct mechanics above all else, and Woolie's affinity towards designs, lore and extravagant cool shit.

[@SGGB]

I don't understand why they had to make this discussion so complicated when the solution is so simple. The character is dead in the storyline? Just have them not show up in the story at all but remain playable, no need for an explanation or anything, they are simply in the roster and are a complete non-factor storywise, it's that easy.

[@MJSHappy]

I mean yeah. Jun is literally still dead in the ACTUAL Tekken 8 story mode.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

Devil's advocate though one of the reasons a fighting game story is hype is that it can tell you who's getting added or removed from the franchise.

[@verymelonman12]

...I feel kinda dumb now for not coming to that conclusion myself, but I think the real and scummy answer to that question is devs realizing they can't sell old characters as DLC if they do that.

[@leithaziz2716]

Guilty Gear +R did this actually since both Justice and Kliff were dead after GG1. Their inclusion was non-canon and any story-bits they had in their arcade mode was just flashbacks.

[@dragonlord564]

I think the issue on this is priorities. In a world where Bison was perma dead and never came back sure you could just add him as a non-canon character but that's spending the dev time in this theoretical fighter which cares for the story on a character that ignores the story when there are a ton of SF characters who could have their story continue

[@psycaddellic7680]

Been thinking about this since the podcast and both guys are right 2 times each: Pat is right that fg stories suck, so sacrificing anything else from the game for the story is a bad bet. But Woolie is right that fg stories are bad now, but that doesn't mean they always will be. It will probably take innovation and some risk to figure it out that a lot of games don't want to take. But Pat is also right that even if a fg story was good, he and a lot of people would still not want that good story to affect a roster because a huge draw for these games are their characters. And Woolie is also right that not allowing the roster to be affected by the story is one more hurdle that's potentially keeping fg stories from being good, and that a lot of people would love to see new novel versions of characters as opposed to the same old same old.

[@OMorty]

Each of their two points aren't mutually exclusive, though, which was the frustrating part of the whole conversation. Pat is talking about how things are while Woolie is talking about how things could be, yet they couldn't seem to bridge the gap between the two.

[@podunkboi3994]

@@OMorty its super easy to solve too, if a character dies just keep them on the roster and they don't affect the story (and if they reaaaaally feel like justifying it just say its a flashback), if a character changes because of the story they get their new moves or design and its cool, or like in kof 13 you have claw iori but normal iori is still playable without affecting the story.

[@fat4eyes]

Soulcaliber story wasn't bad. GBVS story wasn't bad.

[@leithaziz2716]

My argument for when someone tells me "why bother with this? It's bad" for any topic is that just because you're not impressed at the moment doesn't mean people shouldn't try to do it right in the future. I also know of several stories in fighting games I think are great. Fatal Fury and KOF are easy recommendations from me. I wasn't a fan of the MK9 - 11 era of Mortal Kombat, but the 3D games had really cool worldbuilding. I don't expect people not to struggle with Guilty Gear lore (and there's some bonkers stuff there, trust me), but at the end I ended up liking it a lot. Characters are surprisingly complex for the genre, but it's a double-edged of having a lot to research before you can grasp things.

[@leithaziz2716]

For a simple example, Transformers is a toy-line created by Hasbro. Fans of the property didn't NEED to invent all these cool stories and worldbuilding covered in different shows, comics and games. Their only purpose was to sell toys, but I appreciate that they didn't stop there and made something awesome out of it.

[@aysaqchaudhry6054]

Mortal Kombat X did this really well because the dead characters in 9 were Revanants in the story but they made special non-canon human versions of them for regular multiplayer. That's cool.

[@leithaziz2716]

Yeah, that was really fascinating. You had a non-canon old Liu Kang who turned jaded on Raiden. It's a shame MK11 just ignored most of what X set up, cause I found it a fresh jump forward with most of the old cast gone and Quan Chi dead.

[@TheJadedJames]

There were flashbacks to justify non-revenant skins. But they also game Liu Kang entirely non-canon skins that were like if he made it into his 40s without dying

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@leithaziz2716MK11 is the game equivalent of Spider-Man losing his daughter and marriage in Marvel because got forbid this character created in the 60s move on with his life.

[@joekewl7539]

When Woolie starting talking about seeing himself with all gray dreads I thought he was gonna talk about an all bald grey bearded Pat and the two of them fistfighting over Fighting Games. On top of a submarine.

[@FenrirGrey]

and shirtless in the rain

[@nahman3836]

Woolie!!! Patttt!!!

[@yash_kapoor]

Most of the charm of fighting games comes from the characters, so yes I do think the story matters a lot.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Agree 6 killed Jin as a character for everyone who liked their typical righteous Shonen protag archetype, and it wasn't well written, so he couldn't get fans of fallen heroes. Characters aren't just functions after all

[@LochPezak]

Yup, the usual over the top desigs of fighting games characters could slap even harder when paired with solid writing

[@thecaptain6520]

Slight disagree. Using TF2 as an example, those characters are also charming and well written, but there wasn't really a story connecting everything together. They only did so after the fact with the comics and SFM trailers.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Having fun characters doesn't mean the story is any good.

[@egxtra]

@@thecaptain6520 So was the series impacted negatively or positively by the inclusion of these shorts and/or stories?

[@devin5201]

Funny thing is that the cores of the ideas Woolie and Pat are presenting are not mutually exclusive and even are complimentary so the first half of the conversation when they're arguing is insane. Woolie "Fighting game stories should be allowed to be good." Pat "Fighting game rosters should not be shackled by the story."

[@FierinMahLazor]

Just be an absolute chad like SNK and split the timeline so you can have games where the dead are dead and other timelines where they aren't dead

[@RougeMephilesClone]

...And then they felt the need to say that defeating Verse in KoF XIV brought everyone-and-then-some back to life. Well, y'know what, good for them. That took guts, and means KoF can now do dream match games without halting its running storyline, which is pretty much the mindset being argued for in the video.

[@CountofBleck]

26:45 So Pat mentioned Blazblue here, and I want to highlight this point because Mori had even stated himself that people wanting Nu-13 to return and not just Lambda forced the story to shift. There's another point where Hakumen lands a lethal bow to Terumi but Relius finds a way to give him a week's worth of life left. Azrael was captured but then gets released next game and then recaptured. I LOVE Blazblue's story and characters, but keeping everyone around forever tends to hurt the narrative, as sometimes old characters (like bang and taokaka) get pushed out of relevance and new guys can take up some spotlight but not TOO much. The mindset to keeps forever CONSTRICTS the narrative, it makes stakes not matter because everyone needs to survive until the finale, and is probably why storis in fighting games tend to be so bad.

[@TheChatterbox1991]

Let it be known that, as of EVO 2024, Heihachi has been announced for Tekkan 8. So, this conversation has aged well.

[@invaderpez12]

Say what you will about the game itself, but I like how they brought back Joker in Injustice 2 and to explain how since he's dead, they had him be a hallucination. Its dumb and goofy but it helps to keep him as playable but not have him be alive.

[@joekewl7539]

That's what I'm saying! Just have Phantom Heihachi for the roster! No new voicelines, no story significance, just have his hands and feet semi translucent, his hair in between young black and old gray, and if you wanna be really spicy, have him reuse a couple Jinpachi moves. Just TOTAL "THIS IS JUST A PLAYABLE GHOST FOR THE ROSTER, HE REALLY IS DEAD FOR REAL" You can work with that!

[@TheRogueWolf]

The problem with Pat's ideal scenario is that you either get a stagnant roster, or you end up with a bad MUGEN pack with 320 characters encompassing eleven archetypes.

[@badwrongfun5541]

I think they BOTH have it backwards. Heihachi is dead because Harada doesn't want him in the games anymore. The story isn't a concrete law that all development of the game is beholden to, it's very pliable to whatever is needed for the game. If Harada really wanted Hiehiachi in the game, they'd resurrect him in the story, make the memory/nightmare version, an exact moveset replacement, etc. He isn't being kept away because of the mean evil story. The underlying real conversation it feels like they really wanna talk about is just the fighting game equivalent to the Pokemon National Dex Controversy all over again of if they're obligated to keep every single one of your blorbos in every new game from now until eternity.

[@josenick]

This comment has aged incredibly well xD

[@rain_magearchives4089]

Man this week's podcast is gonna be awesome

[@LochPezak]

I agree with Woolie, i dont mind batshit crazy or goofy stories in fighting games that we already have but i dont see why it couldnt be better potentially

[@Vanity0666]

Adding a plot that is anything more complicated than "two guys met eyes in the waffle house parking lot and are now engaged in a blood war" is a mistake

[@LochPezak]

@@Vanity0666 complicated plot and a good plot arent necessarly the same thing

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@LochPezakKingdom Hearts and the worst FF games definitely cross the line between “this is too complicated but I’m enjoying it, to “my brain is melting at this shit please do anything else”. There’s hypocrisy in that I know because I’m willing to defend both Metal Gear and Resident Evil and their plots as dumb and needlessly as complex as the X-Files or comics.

[@TheBravery767]

Because its basically asking for the perfect cake. We can all agree that fighting game's are best experiences with a real person, so what is a "good" story mode in fighting games? Over the nearly 3 decades we've seen attempts at a single player story modes none of them can seem to draw audiences despite how serious or goofy they get. The fact is people don't play fighting game's to fight AI bots, its engrained in the genre that playing against a real human is the only "real way to play".

[@riastradh]

But at the end of the day, an amazing story isn’t a very good reason to take away a character

[@DeathByForklift]

I respect the fuck out of SNK for killing off Team CYS (Chris, Yashiro, and Shermie) in the same game they were introduced ('97) and kept them super mega dead for over 2 decades (excluding the two dream match games they were in cause those have no story anyway), despite every KOF fan ever being like "We want them back!!!" It took a literal plot device in XIV and XIV's entire lifespan before they said "THE DEAD SPEAK! You can have Shermie's giant ass back." That is some hyper dedication to the lore and I respect the fuck out of it. I want more of that.

[@vaelethun]

Exactly! What helped KoF was that it introduced new fighters and personalities every year/installment, even if there were mixed results. Just keep it fresh. If not, don't rock your boat too hard.

[@Adser261]

I think this discussion is combining 2 different points, which is why it is such a mess. First point: What is more important in fighting games, story or gameplay? I think the answer is clearly gameplay. A fighting game with good story but bad gameplay is dead on arrival, while good gameplay but bad story is just the average fighting game. Second point: Is the story of a fighting game relevant enough to matter if it is good? I think the answer is yes. Having a good story makes the characters more memorable and gives an emotional investment in the cast that makes the gameplay more enjoyable. I think the solution would be to just divorce the story from the gameplay. Have your well crafted story mode instead of the usual "choose a character and get an excuse plot for them" and then have your actual player cast unrestrained by the story. "Is that character dead currently in the story/doesn't even appear this time? who cares, you can still play as them".

[@dbzguysean]

But that's the problem, very few fighting games do this, the roster ALWAYS reflects the world state of the game so both end up suffering for it, the only Fighting game off the top of my head that divorces the 2 is Guilty Gear XX, Both Cliff and Justice are dead as shit, but they are still playable in the game with any scenario involving them being fake ass clones or a fleshing out of previous events.

[@Adser261]

@@RicochetForce There are a lot of examples of games where a good story more than makes up for an average to bad (or in some special cases even TERRIBLE) gameplay. That doesn't work on a fighting game because the genre has an identity for replayability, the PVP side of things, and there the impact of gameplay is far greater than the one of the story. A fighting game that people play once and then they are done is not really a fighting game. The "why not both" argument is unrealistic because games are not made in a vacuum. Developers don't just choose to make something good or bad, they have to use their resources to get something and those resources are limited. If a developer has to choose between investing in the gameplay, which 90% of the playerbase will enjoy, or invest in the story, which 20% of the playerbase will enjoy, then they are obviously going to choose the gameplay. True, other genres have a better story/gameplay ratio, but other genres also don't have the extreme pressure of balancing a fighting game, the levels of effort needed are completely different. If a developer is able to get both a good gameplay and a good story then great for them, but the chances that they nail it instead of just screwing both sides are low. Virtual Fighter is a terrible example because, outside of the people who love it like Pat, the gameplay is not enjoyable. A good gameplay is more defined by how much fun you have playing it that by how balanced or technical it is. An actual example is the Marvel VS Capcom series, which not only has a bad to non-existent story, but as a crossover game it doesn't even has the story of it's cast in the game itself. Yet people LOVE it, and so do their characters. How many fast of Morrigan do you think exist in MvC? And of those fans, how many do you think have ever even seen a Darkstalkers game? Good gameplay and good design (which I am correlating with gameplay as it is during gameplay where you can best appreciate a good design) is more than enough to create the emotional investment that a good story is supposed to do. Hell, look at Woolie. In SF6 he doesn't play with Blanka because he doesn't like his gameplay and he plays with Marisa because he likes the gameplay and the design, the story is irrelevant. Even the person who is debating in favor of the story shows that gameplay triumphs over story in defining your favorites.

[@Adser261]

@@RicochetForce Online play/lobbies, UI and UX, which are MASSIVELY important for fighting games, are gameplay. The big changes that are letting fighting games flourish now are all gameplay related, either in match quality or onboarding of new players. Having a good story is great, but when fighting games are still lagging behind so badly in the gameplay part then you have far greater priorities, because at the end of the day gameplay is more impactful. Its less "fighting games can't have good stories" and more "stories are not priority, we have a lot of things to do first". Also "other games have figured out" is not really true. Only really comparable one are shooters, where you do have examples of good storytelling and multiplayer focus, but in those the multiplayer and the story are completely divorced (as I did propose as a solution). That still doesn't make the story nearly as important as the gameplay.

[@ThatWolfArrow]

I wonder if there could be a fighting game that follows the JRPG model of "Every game is its own self contained universe within a franchise that has a shared aesthetic dna"

[@TheJadedJames]

I don’t think fighting games can function like that. They need the returning characters for the brand, while certain JRPGs don’t need characters to return became gameplay style is their brand identity. When a game calls itself Persona you know you are getting that specific combo of social simulation & rpg combat. But can straightforward fighting games do that? They’re just fighting games. Are devs literally going to make entirely new roasters each time, never reusing any but tying them all to the same brand?

[@metallsnubben]

...now you made me imagine a fighting game with monsters from Dragon Quest

[@masterxl97]

For the record, I don't think people give Woolie grief for wanting new characters and story progression. I think it's his ambivalence towards old characters going away that rubs them wrong. Makoto, for example, is one of his favorite characters ever, but he would be totally fine if she was never in another game again, and most people probably find that really weird. It's very natural for people to get attached to specific characters, especially in fighting games, and Woolie's tendency to NOT get attached is fairly unusual.

[@verymelonman12]

Interesting explanation, and thanks for providing it.

[@Two-ToneMoonStone]

Most gamers or geeks in general don't see them as characters though. They call them that, but they are really action figures in their mind and if you deprive them of their favorite doll, they throw a bitch fit. Woolie has an actual normal relationship with a character and the rest of them have intense parasocial with them. That isn't the worst thing in the world but it does create a lot of the dumb drama you see about "RuHsPeCtIn' MuH MC"

[@redgrave4492]

​@@Two-ToneMoonStone I really doubt it's that deep for the average player. If they find a fighting game character their favorite, it makes sense to want to have them playable in future entries. The alternative is sticking an old title where you can only play against the cpu over and over.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

The thing is it doesn't match with Woolie's "I like Steve Fox more than I like Tekken" philosophy, so it comes off as really weird. Either way it's never going to happen because the characters are a brand now, and it's impossible to separate that. The reason fighting games have had bad stories is because I think they're fundamentally at odds with normal storytelling techniques. If Noob Saibot is still in the game, but the story tells me that he's dead, why should I care about the story? He's not dead, he's still there in the select screen.

[@Two-ToneMoonStone]

​@@redgrave4492Or you just accept that your fav not being on the roster is not indicative of the game being good or bad. Personal example: Cody being on the SFV roster isn't what made the game not fun to play, and it won't really make SF6 any more fun than it already is. If your make or break is one set of polygons being in the game over another, thats a you problem, not a dev or story problem.

[@Xenodyne]

9:45 did Woolie just hit Pat with a Joseph Joestar "next you're going to say..."?

[@AceKuper]

I mean he was right and i've done similar things in real life to. The whole issue of this argument was Woolie explaining and saying he agrees that what Pat wants should be a thing. While Pat was going full argument mode withotu actually listening to what Woolie was saying. Resulting in Pat going: "No Woolie, this isn't what i want.", proceed to describe exactly what Woolie said Pat would want.

[@gemknight9889]

Pat: I want to play the character I like Woolie: I want a story to be good Call me crazy, but these are... not mutually exclusive desires, at all

[@BubblyBoar]

As the super weirdo that plays Fighting games for the story, I want their stories to be good. And I also believe they can be good without affecting the roster. They aren't mutually exclusive. And even if they were, that's why Arcade most exists. As non-canon fight mode.

[@Copperhell144]

A singular fighting game can have a good story. A fighting game franchise of multiple games, that is mainly based around having a good story, but then also doesn't let its story affect its roster? I can't imagine it.

[@Dragonsmana]

This entire argument aside, I can at the very least say I appreciate Harada sticking to his artistic vision of what he wants his games to be, in the same way Miyazaki sticks to his guns on difficulty in Fromsoft action RPGs being core to the entire experience.

[@pickledparsleyparty]

Woolie: Man I wish fighting games told good stories. Pat: Why work on improving something people don't like? Today on "Pats Say the Darndest Things." I'm with Woolie on this.

[@thepickles8833]

Crazy Talk, do your thing!

[@almac5446]

How much pat he kinda right

[@kpxtreame]

i think fighting game stories are important and give you something to get invested in just beyond the visuals and moves, but i also dont think that means the rosters have to be slave to the stories canon. Fighting games just being willing to go "this character will be in the roster, but they're a non canon appearance" for characters like Heihachi would be the best of both worlds, dont gonna make them a zombie or a SURVIVED THE WHOLE TIME guy.

[@SuperWHIIITE]

Turns out he survived the whole time...

[@Dantarn]

Fighting Games can live or die based on how cool the roster is and fighting game stories can make characters really cool. For a non-FG example of this look at Bastion. Everyone hated that little turd but then he gets one of the best video game cinematics of all time and people love him despite how much they hated playing against him.

[@leithaziz2716]

Team Fortress 2 is another great example. The fact that there's so many quotable lines from the Meet The Team shorts shows how much of an influence they had on the community. I can nearly quote Soldier's entire speech from his video. "If fighting is to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I figure he knows a little more about war than you do, PAL!"

[@jacobkrakowski]

​@leithaziz2716 100% this is exactly the reason why all the "Meet the Team" videos will forever remain rent free in my mind.

[@RedStar_N7]

You guys are basically explaining why fake wrestling is a thousand times more popular and engaging than the legitimate olympic sport it's based on. Stories are a timeless classic part of society and to pretend that doing it well is not worth doing at all is the reason fighting games will never catch up to the rest of the billion dollar industry that it's housed in

[@RicochetForce]

@@RedStar_N7 Elegantly explained.

[@Copperhell144]

@@RedStar_N7 But then worldwide, fake wrestling is way less popular than soccer, or maybe even LoL or Apex Legends or Counter-Strike, so eeehh... Like, y'know what is ALSO a timeless classic part of society? Games! So then why should fighting games specifically need better stories in order to catch up to, idk, PUBG?

[@tylerritchie2736]

I was in the middle of making a magic deck when Woolie brought up an ever expanding roster that's impossible to fully wrap your head around.

[@JoseRS1186]

The issue seems to be an inability to separate the request for good stories with the implied defense of gameplay choices justified in plot. Did they remove Heihachi because the story forced them, or did they write Heihachi's death *because* they wanted to remove him as an option in the first place?

[@magickoopa24]

I feel like Pat's response would be "well they shouldn't want to remove Heihachi, I want to play as Heihachi"

[@EnerKaizer]

Heihachi is a different case though in a few aspects. He got mostly written out because they had lost now 2 iconic voice actors lending him their voice, so, instead of recasting him now in every subsequent game they rather decided to give his character a finish line, while also giving his players an out by introducing someone similar but different to him with a very similar playstyle. They did the smart thing in that regard, they essentially refreshed Heihachi as a character without causing issues like Jins transition for T3 to T4.

[@EnerKaizer]

@@RicochetForce counter argument against this is shockingly simple. Then there would be no need for ANY sequels, because [Insert Character name here] was already playable in their debut game. I think the real issue is that we have no way of finding out how big actually the percentage of people is with that mindset compared to those who are open for change and/or new characters. This is basically the same situation Star Trek and Transformers for example got confrontated with which led to now iconic slogans like "Not my Trek!" or "Trukk, not Monke!". At first, there were people loud enough to make it look like they were many, but once those sequel shows hit those were suddenly silent because said sequels were popular.

[@malum9478]

lol it ended up not mattering in the end since heihachi's back anyway

[@jsheeds]

So I am sort of halfway in that I feel like *Base Roster* should probably take story considerations into account when choosing characters, but once you start entering DLC fuckit put in whoever who gives a *shit*.

[@JJMomoida]

Listening to this as I was doing chores around the house and just had me like "dang, bro! chill!" when Woolie went off about how Pat chose RPG games, a genre of games that is [comparatively] full of story and characters with rich backgrounds.

[@Danpai_]

I really do think neither of them are wrong, but it felt like they were having two completely different conversations and neither of them ever realized it.

[@li-limandragon9287]

I think it’s the core point of fighting game franchises growing. Pat thinks that it shouldn’t affect the roster and most people who play the games won’t care about character lore anyway. But I agree with Woolie that IP will stagnant without change.

[@JojoDigitalArtist]

Pretty much after I thought about this for a while. They kind of both had entirely different points they were trying to make and didn't really fully listen to the other. Their points aren't fully connected but aren't fully separate either they just didn't realize that and an easy way to connect the two.

[@invaderpez12]

"It should be mutually beneficial" How did Negan help Walking Dead?

[@shadowrobot7708]

To be fair he said should not always are.

[@Assasin2]

WD is an extremely popular franchise, so a cameo like that came from Bandai wanting to get WD fans to buy the game and likely AMC or whoever, trying to get Tekken fans to check out WD. It doesn’t need to strictly be obviously beneficial, but a dead franchise only the most hardcore fans remember isn’t gonna do anything

[@RobertSmith-ym4bo]

Do you have any idea how popular The Walking Dead was???

[@Kango234]

​@@RobertSmith-ym4bo That's what they are saying. Did Tekken fans flock to the Walking Dead after that?

[@randominternetsurfersurfin7595]

​@@Kango234Probably some

[@MrBda241]

MK 9 and MK X did a fine job keeping the roster of dead characters appearing by making them Revenants, and even giving them alt costumes that make them look aged up if they were still alive.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Shame MK11 decided to mess all that up and then buy new bed with Warner Brothers and Amazon and shit in that too.

[@Limit02]

For SF I can’t really think of any story reasons for non death character absences Like Dee Jay doesn’t have a story reason for not being in 5 but being in 6, they just decided to not have him in one but did in the other

[@cybergeek11235]

Don't really NEED one, though, with a cast as big as the big franchises are nowadays. "Hey where's Terry?" "Iunno, didn't answer his phone" "oh, ok"

[@joeyjjmoore]

In the concept of Guest Characters in Tekken, I had recently considered Zasalamel from Soul Calibur. It'd be fun/make sense worldwise because he is immortal and you could even have him have a fun interaction with Yoshimitsu because he knew at least one of the previous ones or at least be like "You seem familiar". Seemed cool to me anyway.

[@Yeetbc]

I think it’s telling that one of the best overall stories that fighting games has to offer, the extended guilty gear storyline, was told with a relatively minimal amount of actual gameplay. The stuff in xrd in particular was a very simple visual novel format with some cutscenes interspersed and they were able to do more in just one version of xrd than street fighter has in its entire history. You could attribute this to simple good and entertaining writing, but maybe fighting games just aren’t an effective primary medium for stories. There’s definitely a compromise between the NRS high budget style, the classic arcade style, and a visual novel format that can make it all work, but that requires commitment and resources that would take away from an already resource intensive genre.

[@DarkSide0121]

I think GG might get into the same troubles since one of their more iconic characters *SPOILERS* dies in the main story for Strive (I-no), and you know that it'd be really hard if they leave behind one of their most visually striking characters out in the future

[@Jsunmile]

@@DarkSide0121 Venom retired at the end of Rev2 and it wasn't that big a deal

[@LkMrcndz]

I thought T8 did a good job in integrating story and gameplay, as Jin changes his moveset as the story progresses, with some fights as different characters to shake things up, then having a Stylish Mode that simplifies gameplay to help some players catch up with new/unknown characters.

[@dragonlord564]

What I find really funny about Guilty Gear and retiring characters is that because of the way the universe works there is always an out for getting a character back Oh no. Sol doesn't have his gear powers anymore... Oh yeah. People can learn fire magic. Guess he's still in

[@warzonice2300]

Woolie always brings up the Blazblue players going "Oh no not another matchup" but I don't know about that really being a big issue, being a BB player myself since the start Like Blazblue's final roster after 4 games is about the same size as a Tekken, KOF or SF game at the end of their cycles, no?

[@Orunoyo]

It also kinda ignores BB fans that don't take it that seriously, a lot of us just need to learn how to fight characters that our friends play.

[@jeremyr4964]

Pat has zero ability to imagine and actually play in a space. Just dismissing Woolie with "well thats not how it is" gets so fucking tired

[@janematthews9087]

First also. Yes. The reason why people popped off at Terry Showing up for Street Foghter is because people know his backstory, that Geese Killed his father and the game showed the story of how Terry took his revenge by beating Geese and jom falling off the tower. There's something for people to connect to with him. Made him relatable. Also the entirety of the King of Fighters series is a longform sotry of Kyo and the ongoing story of him and his life. Which includes callbacks from, like 20 years. People who followed the game's stories were rewarded with being in the know when an old character came back.

[@MrCJBubba]

Pat mentioning soul calibur reminds me how badly I want Namco to add Zasalamel because Tekken is just the soul calibur timeline in the modern era we know this because of the continued existence of the cursed sword, Yoshimitsu which everyone of its welders takes the name of, and Zasalamel's whole deal is that he is cursed to be reincarnated for eternity and cannot actually die so it would be sick as hell to see what he has been doing since SC we also get a glimpse of him existing in the modern era in his SC4 ending.

[@Noxshade]

This is a tricky situation, and they argue past each other several times. Game stories being good VS mattering. Both are right, in that it sucks to have a terrible story effect the part of the game you care about, but on the other hand how can the story matter if it’s not allowed to effect the thing you care about?

[@AceKuper]

I mean Woolie absolutely acknowledged and agree with what Pat was saying, it was just Pat arguing past Woolie.

[@ThreshAllden]

The reason people don’t want bison is because how many games is he in? The reason people want Makoto is how many games is she in?

[@ericbright1881]

A friend of mine believes the majority of Street Fighter characters are villains in some way. Dudley for example intends to use the prize money to replace his father's rose garden. Hakan is using the opportunity to promote his careers. Considering there are characters in the tournament who need the money to save people's lives etc., that means Dudley and Hakan are passively getting people killed for personal profit.

[@ZetaFan42069]

Just have a section in the character selection screen that says DEAD CHARACTERS/DREAMMATCH story n time can progress but the people that refuse to switch character and doesnt care about the story can still play their good ol main for the 40th year. Why does devs want to tie a story on a character when theyre released when they dont do it most of the times with dlcs "why is he here?" "i dunno portals i guess" just do the same with dead characters "why is he here?" "oh thats my ai simulation of heihachi to study his moves"

[@fishbiter9409]

Woolie would change his tune if his favorite character got killed off and their move set got transferred to a kawaii uguu cutesy idol girl character. He'd 180 so hard he'd get whiplash.

[@Kango234]

Honestly my issue with modern fighting game stories is how they have to adhere to a single "cinematic" storyline now. I think it was best where the only story you got was from manuals and the arcade mode, that way it lets your imagination go wild and you can show off things that would never be canon. For example, Necali in SFV is this demonic entity that appears when the world is in danger and devours the souls of strong warriors. But instead of that just being his cool backstory that makes people want to play as him, the story just had him fight a bunch of characters and get the shit kicked out of him because he obviously can't actually kill anyone. So now he's just a meme with Kotal Khan who also suffered a similar fate.

[@BunniesFromHeck]

Catch me yelling in frustration when they announced M. Bison for SF6.

[@li-limandragon9287]

I just hope they let Chun-Li or Cammy beat him this time. SF5 was really shitty when it came to that.

[@Atou_Mahogany]

This reminds me of playing a fighting game on the Dreamcast where they doubled their roster by just adding a "clone fighter" above/below their character slot. Like, you had this girl in a chinese gii that fought with rings, and her "character unlock" which appeared under her spot was her daughter from the future. There was also a character who is a dark elf that fought with a staff. Her "character unlock" which appeared above her slot was her teacher/master, some alien guy with an exposed brain. I found it neat at the time, even though I think the only reason I got the game was because it came with a demo of Sonic Adventure 2? This was a long time ago, so not sure how much I am remembering correctly.

[@Hoarseplay]

You're thinking of Plasma Sword: Nightmare of Bilstein. During the early years of 3D fighters, it was common to pad out the roster by adding unlockable deviations with slight moveset changes.

[@Atou_Mahogany]

@@Hoarseplay Yup! Thats the game.

[@juggernautvixx]

-The roster doesn't need to be entirely connected to the story. -The story can be good. -The story/ balancing doesn't have to match gameplay. -What was done in the past was arcade endings. -It doesn't have to be a cinematic story mode.

[@TheCobaltOwl]

I see Woolie learned nothing from "No Mai, no buy." Also Pat is spot-on bringing up MvCi's "functions" gaffe as an example. If that game had an in-story lore explanation for why there were no X-Men playable, it would not have sold a single extra copy, because the X-Men not being playable was the problem in of itself. That being said, whether you care about a character coming back will always come down to your personal preference. I'd have found it neat if Bison stayed dead for the lore, but I also don't play Bison anyway. So if Woolie is okay with all of his mains disappearing forever because a cutscene said so, that's up to him.

[@108Fire]

I'm totally with you, and I agree with Woolie that thing's changing and evolving can be cool, but as soon as it comes as the cost of a character you love, that's too far for some people. New characters are dope, and I get the idea behind what Woolie said when a new character could be your new favorite, but my main is Karin, she's my favorite, and it's been that way for 20+ years, it's not changing lol

[@In-The-Zone]

Taking a fighting game character out of the roster because they are dead is akin to taking the energy sword out of Halo multiplayer because Master Chief isn't fighting any elites in the story mode. Doesn't matter how good the story is, the primary purpose of these games is to compete with another human player. If you hamper that core experience by removing something that has been a constant you are hurting your player base full stop. The degree it hurts the product or if people like whatever is brought in its place comes second to that simple fact. Maybe it was a net gain and worth it, doesn't change the fact you did hurt your player base, especially if its permanent which is the implication from Harada in Tekken's case.

[@LinkinMark1994]

This is all the more reason we should bring back secret bosses, what-if scenarios, and unlockable characters in fighting games. You can still get hype over the content that’s there. And if people bitch because their shiny new game doesn’t come with the full roster unlocked, tough shit. That’s why early unlock dlc exists.

[@zacharyallen110]

Make 2 sides of a character select - "Story" and "Dream Match". Keep your story characters and the characters you want to play.

[@JojoDigitalArtist]

If they killed off Juri and said she would never show up in SF6 again because she's dead in the story...the amount of people who would never touch the game again would be insane.

[@Max501]

That literally almost happened to Mileena in MKX/11. That NR makes a reference in her intro that states her fans wanted her alive again.

[@ShatteredPedestal7]

@@Max501they pussied out in the last DLC for MK11 and put her in the game, so her death in MKX meant nothing in the end.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@JojoDigitalArtist Depends, if it was awesome volcano duel of the fates death with Chun-Li, I’d totally be fine with it. Or at least some satisfying like Maul’s death in Star Wars. I mean what’s Juri doing in 6 beyond being Chun-Li’s stalker?

[@Copperhell144]

"No Mai, no buy" used to be a thing for KOF12

[@Hillthugsta]

Street Fighter has thrived without her. People will get over it. Try a SF without Ryu or Ken...

[@coldjustus]

I’m here to say Pat was right, and now we know

[@nobody13Roxas1]

Was coming here to say the same thing. He's gonna blow Woolie up next week 😂

[@LoneWolf4299.]

@@nobody13Roxas1and I can’t WAIT for that!!!!

[@verymelonman12]

I side with Woolie but I get where Pat is coming from. This is a huge issue for the fighter genre because for decades having goofy character bios is all the story that was really needed for the genre to attract fans of the characters specifically. There isn't a reason NOT to improve storytelling by being willing to have rosters change to reflect the plot if need be, but roster changes also have a much larger chance of upsetting other fans because losing a character they like FOREVER is something they won't take sitting down. The Combofiend mention really highlights how badly this can go if devs act like their customers aren't going to care about the specific characters at all. There isn't a good or even decent solution to this, and several fighting game franchises have only managed to present their own takes on this issue with mixed results all around. Still, it's an interesting question to ask and the pursuit of a solution is always worth pursuing.

[@tiagomain1409]

Idk why we can’t just have the character on the roster, they can be dead in cannon just still playable.

[@MattManDX1]

@@tiagomain1409 Like Kazumi in Tekken 7. She died before a lot of the characters on that roster were born but players were still able to pick her and fight against those other characters

[@StanNotSoSaint]

What the fuck is Pat talking about? Kung Lao was playable in MKX while being dead.

[@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll]

Woolie: People die when they are killed. Pat and the majority of the FGC: But why.

[@Ryclak]

Exhibition mode should be dream matches with no timeline limitations. Story can be whatever.

[@juggernautvixx]

18:18 Another question could be: "which fighting game characters have good back stories?". "Which story lines from fighting games are compelling?". Akuma having rivalries with some characters is fun because it means in the canon that character can fight Akuma, like Oro or Gen.

[@zaneseibert]

Can some one please ask Woolie straight up "what if all the new characters just fucking suck?" He just seems to think it's impossible for that nightmare to happen. Even when Soul Caliber 5 gets brought up he pretty much says "Shut up Zwei has a stand!" and acts like that redeems the whole roster.

[@EnerKaizer]

counter argument: we can never find out if all characters "suck" (which is highly suggestive as it is, because rarely everyone agrees on a character being bad or unlikable. I for example liked Patroklos in SC5 despite them botching his character redemption in the storymode for example.) if devs never even attempt anything to actually shake up their games story and their character roster. You are essentially advocating for all the character to be eternally stuck in the same limbo in which western comic heroes are stuck in because 40+ year old manchildren hold the characters hostage by never letting them actually change, evolve, and/or maybe pass on their respective mantles because they never try ANYTHING, and are happy to be just stuck in their tiny little bubble.

[@Two-ToneMoonStone]

​@@EnerKaizerlotta crossover in that audience you mentioned lol

[@EnerKaizer]

@@RicochetForce The issue with SF3 was a culmination of multiple factors. them lingering on SF2 for what felt like ages + them basically not even selling the new cast members originally is what did them in. Ryu and ken worked because they were basic and came from an era before people even knew games could have proper stories, but when Alex hit the scene people demanded more. And basically nothing gave people even a glimpse of what Alex was about (plus Alex being a complicated grappler with weird inputs made things even worse) You can already tell that capcom noticed this, hence why Lukes introduction was handled miles and leagues better then Alex', and why I hope these 2 at least meet if Alex isn't making the roster this time. Just to see them interact.

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@EnerKaizerIt’s a real shame because I think Capcom took the wrong lessons from the backlash to 3 in 4 and 5. Just two games where nobody really grows or evolves and Ryu is the only one allowed to beat the villains.

[@ElbyHere]

I do think a good combination of these two arguments is seeing how the characters evolve over time within the contexts of their worlds. Like, Guilty Gear Strive does this pretty well, I think, as the characters' arcade modes focus on how they've come to grow and accept themselves as a person, and I feel like the new designs do well to reflect their journey. I'm too much of a casual to know how much this is reflected in their movesets, if at all, but yeah.

[@bangormc3rd562]

Here's what you do: just always include one guy who makes "phantoms" of dead/missing characters. Then whenever a dead/missing person shows up, just point and go, "Phantom, probably." Heck, that also helps with needing a contrived reason to fight in story mode: "Why is he fighting his friend?" "Phantom, probably."

[@dungusyungus245s]

The story doesn't always have to affect the roster and vice versa. Hit and Black were in the roster for DBFZ, but they were nowhere in the story mode. Hell, Kid Buu and Trunks only showed up as clones and it doesn't affect the story as a whole because they're practically just interchangeable jobbers.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Neither Kid Buu or Trunks are jobbers compared to Vegeta.

[@dungusyungus245s]

@@li-limandragon9287 like always...

[@horomaru1]

whats important is that the roster need a balance charcter consistency of a grappler, zoner, charged etc move set imho. would really like a new charcter every now and then but some legacy character that is popular with the fans also needs to be there

[@graffitisamurai]

If you think FG stories don't matter but mock the MVC: Infinite devs reducing beloved character to "functions" you don't get the assignment.

[@Kango234]

Yeah I was baffled Pat said.

[@ShatteredPedestal7]

Just the fact not one X-men is in MvC:I because of IP license issues is just bad decisions by all involved.

[@Copperhell144]

The deal behind MvC:I characters wasn't their stories within the MvC crossover universe though, they all had their own stories outside of the games. If anything, the MvC series as a whole is a clear-cut example that FG stories don't matter.

[@Limit02]

I super respect and agree with Woolie for being so open to “new cool thing”, though in SF6’s case it already has plenty of new characters this early on, and I at least like or love all of them, so I’d honestly like if Season 3 could be just all returning characters from Alpha, 3, and 4 so more returning characters could get the SF6 glow up

[@TheAlison1456]

Nah. I want my games to stagnate, never improve, and most certainly, NEVER meet the potential latent in them.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Hell I get angry when I see things like Scorpion and Sub-Zero become friends in a touching and awesome manner.

[@Confussed-Oddish]

Anyway the guest character I want would in Tekken is Baki Hanma or Yujiro Hanma, I know it will never happen but still.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Tifa should be a guest character, it’s ridiculous Noctis got in before she did.

[@werwolfnate]

Stories in games need to be either good, or out of the way. If your game is going to take time out of play to tell a bad story, that's where the problems come.

[@Two-ToneMoonStone]

Sure but no one intends on telling a bad story. You're not gonna know if its bad or not until its in the audiences hands.

[@werwolfnate]

@Two-ToneMoonStone That's the risk you take. Nothings making your game have to have a ton of story in it. That's your choice, so you better take care with it.

[@DarthEnderX]

Fighting game stories should be good. Fighting game stories shouldn't effect whether a character is playable on the roster. End thread.

[@Vaishino]

Soul Calibur 3 had two separate story modes back in the day and they were pretty decent iirc. One of 'em was a kind of strategy game that had fighting game combat, which was dope.

[@Zetact_]

I think a large part of it is that fighting games not caring about the story mode can be demonstrably screwed up by just looking at Street Fighter. 3, 4, 5 and 6 all have different boss characters than Dictator, but they all end up being half-baked largely because Capcom just keeps going back to Dictator. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, Street Fighter puts focus on Dictator because the new bosses don't have as much success, but the new bosses aren't successful because they keep going back to Dictator. The only one that was given an attempt is Gill, but the Illuminati storyline ended before it really got to be fully realized and maybe part of that was that it should have been more self-contained to 3 rather than having most arcade endings hint towards future storylines but that's only a problem because the arcade focus didn't allow it. Street Fighter 6 is weird because the initial roster having a ton of newcomers as well as the redesigned cast and Capcom confirming, "This takes place after SF3" all give it the air that it's a game that WOULD be taking the story seriously. Street Fighter 4 people didn't expect a story-focus on because it was set "timeline-wise" really close to SF2 so it makes sense that there's minimal plot development and marketing-wise Street Fighter 4 was presented largely as a revival of old favorites, it's almost like a Dream Match game. SF6 is presented in its roster and art direction as a game that intends to push into the future, so it's weird to have it bring Shadaloo back out of obligation.

[@drew1080]

Mortal Kombat is the best example I have for how story context can ruin a character for me. First of all, from a mere glance at their gameplay, every character is overflowing with personality and their own form of badassery. Then you play the story and in actuality it reveals all MK characters are jobbers who play musical chairs with "who gets their ass beat by the chapter protagonist next". As a result, all of the villain henchmen characters just plain fucking suck. Cuz they are evil, so you'll never get to play them and every protagonist gets to beat their ass. There's also what it does to new characters. Jacqui and D'Vorah are opposite extremes for how NOT to add new characters. Jacqui is such a forgettable, nothing of a character with nothing unique about her whatsoever. D'Vorah is sick as fuck, very unique, and easily could've been a fan favorite. But because of her polarizing actions in story mode, most fans hate her and I guarantee there are people who never played her because of the story mode. Finally, as stereotypical as it is, my fav is Scorpion. The fact Scorpion is no longer Hanzo, and is now Kuai Liang just ruins that character for me and I am longer comfortable playing as him cuz it's not the same character. Mortal Kombat, in general, just had a history of making really fucking sick characters more generic and lame thanks to the story content and I'm just tired of it.

[@li-limandragon9287]

MKX is as brave enough to move on and MK11 deserves all the more hate for back peddling.

[@ShatteredPedestal7]

That’s why the chapter system in MK doesn’t work, and you can blame MKvsDC for starting that.

[@jorkington5596]

13:58 so Woolie literally agrees with Pat's orignal point here, but doesn't realise it because he's too busy arguing a different point that no one is making

[@chahrizard]

this actually a good topic for discussion on the podcast

[@yellowbelt]

Bloody roar, soul calibur, psychic force, fatal fury, and king of fighters has decent stories. Miss with me that no fighter has a story worth talking about

[@yellowbelt]

Fuck woolie did not even bring up guilty gear

[@donaldwright8567]

Woolie:"I want good stories that matter in my fighting games!" Pat: "I want my favorite fighters in my fighting games!" Old El Paso Girl: "Why not both?"

[@funaccount7665]

Kof up until 14 always surprised me when a character died they stayed dead permanently and only showed up in a non canon game whenever they were reintroduced.

[@baboner1046]

Tekken 8 had a really good story mode. So many hype moments

[@li-limandragon9287]

Still bummed Steve and Nina got absolutely nothing to though despite their stuff being waaaaay more interesting than the Mishimas at this point. Harada would rather Nina have designated girl fights with Reina and goof around Lee than deal with Steve’s situation.

[@baboner1046]

@@li-limandragon9287 unfortunately, that's most characters. I've been wanting more for Asuka since tekken 5, but still. I loved the story mode

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@baboner1046Oh Asuka that girl that just fights Lili all time, also I think she has Kazama powers but how could that ever be relevant.

[@baboner1046]

@@li-limandragon9287 exactly

[@Jaquille12]

I love most of SC's roster in 6 cause most of their movesets were tied to story,and that rule made so many great. Like mina loses to Ivy once then goes off to train,and due to this her moveset is anti-ivy. Cassandra and Hwang also had that great same rule! It's just the game does have the other issue series wise where I feel taki and Ivy as well as Sophitia don't really feel like they advance in story or moveset due to how they aren't allowed to change. Which is why I agree with Woolie it's cooler when moveset reflects story progress! Also no one would be up over a female bison/dictator let's be honest.

[@thepickles8833]

Much like how the mecha genre has two sub-genres to summarize the difference between Real Robot and Super Robot, Fighting Games probably need sub-genres to describe the tone of how serious or goofy it can get (if that doesn't already exist)

[@catantcha99]

Those sub genres don't even work most of the time for mecha anime

[@StrawberryMooosic]

18:20 Tekken 4. Easy. Probably the only time almost all of the storylines lined up well and provided pretty engaging beats, even as limited by the arcade ladder storytelling method they may have been.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Yet ironically it’s the game the old channel and other fighting games shat on for changing up the inputs.

[@adams3627]

This whole section of the podcast was really good, in that they both made good points, but frustrating, because they seemed to not realize that they were both arguing with their hallucinations of what they other guy said? Like, obviously arguing past one another, and not only did they not acknowledge that it happened, they didn't even seem to realize that's what was going on?

[@adams3627]

As an addendum, it bugged me that Woolie left basically the best argument he could make unsaid: Pat has said in the past he really likes Reina, but her status as Heihachi's daughter informs a lot of her moveset. If Heihachi isn't gone, I don't think we get Reina, at least not in the awesome way she exists now. Some cool things HAVE to come at the expense of other cool things, as part of WHY they're cool. Kuma is more fun to play than ever, BECAUSE they gave him some of Heihachi's moves, and he has those moves because he trained with him in-story. Again, I don't think you get the new Kuma if the devs decide Heihachi can stay and the story has no effect on the roster. Of course, Pat would probably just be contrary and say Reina can go die in a pit if it means he can play as Heihachi some more.

[@AceKuper]

" they not acknowledge that it happened, they didn't even seem to realize that's what was going on?" Woolie literally predicted what Pat was going to say and acknowledged that is valid multiple times. Pat was the only one not listening.

[@Copperhell144]

@@adams3627 I agree with "some cool things have to come at the expense of other cool things", but I don't agree that Reina-Heihachi is a good example of this. Reina and Heihachi easily could have existed alongside each other. Same thing with Kuma having the EWGF.

[@AussieDragoon]

Look the point is moot in many cases for a main reason: even if a character is present in the story, that doesn't mean they'll be playable. Smoke was playable in MK9, then was IN THE STORY of MKX and wasn't playable like the other revenants, then could have been brought back in 11 for the same reason but was completely ignored, then finally got brought back for MK1 despite being a possible roster member in both previous games. It's just whoever the devs want to actually put into the game, and character being in the story or alive or dead or in between is irrelevant, so...why not give a story reason why the devs didn't want to include them? At least it's something, at least it's not no reason like MKX Smoke...

[@ShatteredPedestal7]

At the same time, you have Sindel Baraka and Rain who were characters with moves in the story fights, but weren’t playable. The only one who did get in after the base game released was Tanya as DLC.

[@verachannel7091]

im a big fan of changing up rosters and would love to see story modes continue to improve. as far as dead characters or old styles not returning though just add like a section at the bottom of the roster thats the holo combat simulation roster or box of shadows roster or something. most things in fightings games arent canon events so let the story deal with the current core cast, mp as far as im concerned is always a dream match anyway.

[@HoChiMints2007]

All we need is a satisfying win/victory screen after the final boss. That necessitates the story. We want that satisfaction of achieving something, earning that victory, making the fights matter. Sean's 3rd strike ending? "LOOOL JK IT WAS JUST A DREAM, try again"

[@li-limandragon9287]

If Chun-Li finally gets her revenge against Bison in 6 then she wakes up and it’s all a dream with her only role is to be thigh masterbation I’d burn Capcom down.

[@BreboVR]

I kind of end up agreeing with both points here, I totally get it being a bummer leaving old character behind. I tend to be really attached so characters themselves and having a similar moveset but not literally them ends up kind of bumming me out. But on the other side Marisa is now my favorite Street Fighter character of all time not just in gameplay but as a specific character and that wouldnt have happened if we never moved on and introduced new characters. Although I would now be bummed out if going forward she was not included in future games lol, I guess its sort of a 50/50

[@RippahRooJizah]

Wait... I just started this but unless there is an actual separate mod, Any Point Cancel is not, in and of itself, is not a mod, it's an unlockable game mode. Edit 1: As far as Sigma goes... he's in X8 but he's not really responsible for X8, per se, there's a whole other "big bag". X6 kinda did this too where Sigma had nothing to do with what happened. But he's in X6 due to contractual obligation, because why else would Gate have a Pocket-Sigma to use 'just in case'?

[@Axonn1018]

I think MKX did the balance on this pretty well. A lot of the dead characters like Liu Kang, Kitana, and Raiden all have non-canon looks as if they were to never have died in 9 and instead grew older. But the Remnants skins are there (making the Remnant look as the default in MK11 was a huge mistake). And there's also Goro having absolutely no impact on the story but just being there despite in that timeline he had all his arms ripped off.

[@consolemans]

Pat usually defaults to the story don't matter, so long as he's having fun bashing buttons and the character design doesn't offend him.

[@Levitz9]

Yeah, since characters in a fighting game aren't just "functions", they SHOULD have stories. These stories matter to people. Look at how many people fell in love with Bridget, especially after her story in Guilty Gear Strive. Look at how people liked seeing Sakura grow into an adult and work at an arcade. People get attached to these characters, they like seeing them grow old and change over the years. They totally deserve stories (and those stories deserve to be good).

[@QMMarc]

Just don't have the dead character show up in the STORY MODE and have him just be playable, heck, if needed, add a little ''Non-Canon'' tag at the corner of their portrait in the character selection screen, this is a very easy cake to have and eat.

[@rosethrawn]

Woolie is full of 💩! Cause when Soul Calibur 5 did the whole next generation of characters, he hated it! He hated Patrokolos, Pyrrha, Lexia, and the other new characters on the roster who inherited their parents moved.

[@lewa3910]

Yeah but the story literally portrayed them in the lamest light, they all seemed so muchblamer than how their parents we're shown in previous games. Plus they were doing it with the majority of the cast, you are definitely not a soul calibur fan if you think that was a popular decision amongst the fandom

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@lewa3910So long as the new characters are good and the old characters are still around, it should be fine.

[@rosethrawn]

@@lewa3910 🥷 , point where I ever said that the majority of Soul Calibur fans liked this change?! POINT! I never said it was liked, and I’ve been playing Soul Calibur since DREAMCAST, moron

[@rosethrawn]

@@lewa3910 And this further proves my damn point that the majority of fans don’t like when the progression of time takes away their old favorites, Woolie included! So learn some media literacy and learn how to read in between the lines, you worthless mouth breathing, ball sucking, troglodyte!

[@rosethrawn]

@@lewa3910POINT WHERE THE HECK I SAID THAT! 😂 I’ve been playing since Dreamcast, bucko! Get your state cotton breath out of here. Everyone hated the new characters, Woolie included, so my point still stands

[@carbide4458]

Considering most video game stories are trash, when a character playstyle disappears because of a convoluted story, that just straight up sucks. Put more dev time on making a kickass FG, with great netcode, extra modes, tutorial/training tools, and more characters and retunes of old characters.

[@fishbiter9409]

Woolie would change his tune if his favorite character got killed off and their move set got transferred to a kawaii uguu cutesy idol girl character. He'd 180 so hard he'd get whiplash.

[@Darthwin1]

Had listened to the postcast, and I would probably say for a lot of people their primary concern is gameplay the thing that will keep people coming back and if their favorite character is there and has their general move set. SC V would be a pretty good example of what happens when you replace the majority of the cast and fail to flesh out the replacements. Tekken 4 had similar issues when because story reasons had a completely new move pool. For Makoto, I am going to assume her popularity is a combination of Third Strike gaining popularity over time and newer fans gravitating toward her at the point where she is less a new character compared to the even newer characters.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Tekken 4 deserves much more credit, it did everything Woolie says franchise should do and the only reason people moan about it “hE pLAys diFFerENt”

[@Anonlyso]

Damn that Melty Blood snub hurt, and the OG was one of the few that actually let branching storylines of "If you lose the match, you get put on a whole different route, sometimes lose hard enough, you get to fight your sister who becomes legally distinct "Xmen vs Streetfighter Apocalpyse", then Lumina comes out with "Only the Storyline our god Nasu wrote matters" so it COMPLETELY ERASES THE MELTY BLOOD ORIGINAL GIRL ELTNUM CUZ IT'S "a prequel" and then somehow shoves in half the Fate Grand Order cast roster. Never been such a roster fumble for bad story reasons BOTH WAYS. Wish I knew at least half of Blazblu cuz I keep getting told it's the wildest chuuni bullshit with heart and tears from the side, but also idk, hour long Visual Novel cutscenes between fights can be it's own kind but there's gotta be a way to trim it right so it isn't either "HERE'S MY 20 EPISODE LENGTH TRAGIC BACKSTORY" vs "Ok, we're just gonna do another tournament story excuse"

[@wdcain1]

I'm surprised Capcom didn't do the cinematic storymod before NRS. Rival Schools, Alpha 3, and their JoJo fighter had such fun stories. But right now, I think the Konquest mode sandbox is the right way to go since the big cinematic mode has the problem of always trying to be more epic and grand.

[@tman1782]

Harada can miss me with that BS this is the same man who had Negan from walking dead in Tekken 😂😂

[@li-limandragon9287]

Walking Dead was popular in 2015.

[@LkMrcndz]

​@@li-limandragon9287People forgot how TWD was popular EVERYWHERE, every new episode was like Sunday at the church and eveything

[@li-limandragon9287]

@@LkMrcndzReally only cared for the first Telltale game of it myself. There’s only so much you can do with a zombie apocalypse setting, it gets real dull after awhile.