Wakanda Forever Bechdel Test In Shambles | Castle Super Beast Clips

[@DeepestDankest]

On the topic of comics, I read an interview with a writer for the Batman comics and he was really jealous about the Japanese manga industry for being able to tackle any sort of setting and niche activity and have people be interested enough to read it. He stated that comic books in the west is way too synonymous with super-heroes and that it was a problem. You could never get a comic book serialized if it focused on a ordinary person who like fishing or even golfing in the west.

[@leithaziz2716]

This is something I'm genuinely fascinated by with the Japanese market. Manga content is very varied. There's something there for everyone. From your JoJos to your Berserk to Mob Psycho to Chainsaw Man to more mature Seinen Manga. And that's a positive.

[@chrissmith9167]

Fist of the North Star is extremely violent and is considered shounen. Most ecchi harem series are considered shounen too. It’s not about the rating but about who they market too.

[@ichimaru96]

It's unfortunately something that went out to favour with the end of pulp comics and short stories Like robert E Howard who wrote Conan the barbarian also wrote boxing stories and i think they were quite popular in a niche way. They were probably like the hajime no ippo of the 20s And DC really did start out making detective comics Hopefully people do start going back to those older genres when people get sick of heroes again. Like when alan Moore made from hell and his other non superhero stuff

[@bicksbernd1640]

@@ichimaru96 Image and other publishers are already doing that and have been doing so for a while

[@ichimaru96]

@@bicksbernd1640 oh really? I'll be honest when i think of image i just think of spawn 😂 I'll have to actually do a deeper dive though

[@FrozenOver0]

Pat: "You know, Killmonger had a point." Me having been on the internet during the release of Black Panther: *Braces myself* Woolie: "Yeah, he did..." Me: *Takes a deep breath as I brace further* Woolie: "Why DIDN'T Wakanda help out the other African nations at any point?" Me: *Deep sigh of relief*

[@TheSpiritus0]

Well isn't the simple answer that they were isolated from ALL the world?

[@pandasaremellow787]

Thank you. I thought the same exact thing guys

[@music79075]

Why is it Wakandas responsibility to care about other Africans enslaving each other and being enslaved by others?

[@turboyabo864]

Pat dose realize killmonger want kill off all the white people ?

[@Doingdis]

They explain that multiple times though.

[@hiroprotagonest]

The villain thing reminds me that in Kung Fu Panda, originally Tai Lung ONLY tried to take the dragon scroll by force and that was the entire reason for his imprisonment, but the feedback to it was "we're sympathizing with him too much" so they added "...but FIRST he razed the village at the foot of the mountain!"

[@Biodeamon]

No that's just your western philosophy empathizing with the man-child villain who thinks he's deserved everything instead of working for it. He showed he wasn't ready or mature by attempting to take the scroll by force, even if he did have abandonment issues motivating him. He let his hunger for power consume him and hurt everybody around them, instead of just realizing power is meant to protect those around him. I didn't sympathize with him at all.

[@PregnantAdamSandler]

Okay tbf with Killmonger, I feel like the movie made it clear that while the SEED of his ideals were reasonable his CIA and soldier work basically fucked him mentally. Like they at least have a clear throughline to how Killmonger goes from "reasonably pissed of" to "We need to kill them if there is even a chance they could kill us"

[@damonsghost9235]

Thank You. To me killmonger was just gonna make wakanda a giant target. The big bad that unites the world. By not expanding in africa first weaken the nation. Stretch them thin. The wars would guarantee the world at large gets the tech.

[@RandgrisAlmark]

Wakanda flipping the stealth fighter around when it sees the slave ships on the horizon.

[@abadidea5984]

After having watched Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness and Thor Love & Thunder back to back, I'm starting to get the distinct feeling that writers at Marvel all took the same screenwriting class in college, and all attended the lecture where they said "Sympathetic villains are good villains" and just internalized that as the *only* thing you can do with villains. I thought the 'Sony Dramatic Dad' formula was exhausting, but it turns out the 'Marvel Sad Parent Villain' is EQUALLY as exhausting.

[@Avengedtenfold]

The Sony Dramatic Dad formula never even got that bad. From Sony themselves it was basically just two games, both wildly popular and inescapable but not really a pattern. Unless you're also counting derivatives which even then, I don't think it got as homogenous as Marvel phase 3. or whatever phase we're on

[@irondoomable]

@@Avengedtenfold either then gow and the tlou other protagonist aren't really dramatic dads. got delves into family issues and returnal has a protagonist who is a mom but that's about it. i do prefer family-based plots then a cheesy romance stuff though.

[@ryangallagher8194]

I'll at least take trying to give them characters over "Hello I'm Mr Evil here to be evil" from their first 8 years of making movies.

[@MAGDIELJOBAD]

Angela Bassett was godlike in this movie. Wouldn't mind if she was the one who became the new Black Panther. Those Arms are Superhero material.

[@thelaughingrouge]

And the fact that's she's in her mid 60s?! Inspiring!

[@Cloperella]

I'm a little surprised that it's taken this long for Woolie to experience Marvel Fatigue -- or at least verbally confirm that it's set in. It set in for me even before I saw Endgame, which is why it took me so long to see it (finally saw it at home during the pandemic). Good movie, but I can't say that I was squealing during any particular moment, it was just *pretty good, I guess* . I fully admitted that Marvel fatigue had set in after I started watching The Boys at the beginning of this year, because I hadn't seen anything related to Marvel since Endgame, and I was absolutely eating up this cynical take on superhero entertainment. That series came out at just the right time, when Marvel was still viewed by the public as a phenomenal entertainment force, and just about to begin its steady decline.

[@leithaziz2716]

Pat's issue when it comes to MCU's jokes that try to lighten the mood is called lampshading, and it's really annoying having to watch a movie contsantly make fun of its more surreal aspects to try to appeal to your average joe. How about commiting to the weird stuff in your movie and not point it out in the first place? There's poking fun a little at yourself to not seem uptight, and then there's just not having faith in your audience to take your movie seriously. Do you wanna see Batman constantly quip about his costume or beating up criminals to "lighten the mood"?

[@Agent_Cobalt]

Why develop a character like dr strange, thor or Bruce banner when we can crack a joke and emasculate them Haha funny fat Viking man, isn’t he jolly

[@thelaughingrouge]

Don't let the fact that Natalie Portman's character is dying of cancer set in, we might get some really emotional growth quick bring in the screaming goats!!!!

[@befuddlingvisage5427]

In Thor love and thunder, people couldn't figure out if that one girl telling Thor she had cancer was a joke or not. Marvel humor is broken

[@KrytenKoro]

@@Agent_Cobalt ..."emasculate"? Why did you go specifically to that word, instead of "humble" or "diminish"?

[@Agent_Cobalt]

@@KrytenKoro Because that’s why they do what they do, have been doing. Male characters in the past have had pretty out and open flaws, but now the plot will often hinge on these characters being immature, incompetent or uncharacteristically one dimensional. But the women characters haven’t had that problem. Of course if you just think about the script as it reads you aren’t going to see what I’m talking about. This goes beyond the plot and character motivations. I’m talking about the intentions of the creators Diminish is synonymous I’ll admit. Humble is not. If what they where trying to do was humble these characters they did a piss poor job. Characters like Tony and thor where already humbled by acknowledging character flaws. You don’t humble a character by making them stupid so the plot can move forward

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Is marvel actually pretending we don’t know the sister is the primary replacement?

[@majdjinn5042]

Comics basically had her shoot Tchalla into space and her take his place.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

I mean, she wasn’t really built up for it prior to this movie. So yeah if you don’t know anything about the movie no

[@kaisersaucy6503]

its because her stint during filming made people think they were gonna make changes and go another direction when they cut her off, or at least lower her screentime. Some people assumed Okoye or Nakia would get the mantle.

[@The_Devil_Breaker_]

The thing about it though is that Nakia should've been the replacement

[@TheShockVox]

The movie felt less like a typical MCU movie than the previous two. I’m surprised it took THIS for him to feel Marvel’d out. The previous 2 killed me. This felt like a breath of fresh air.

[@SteelBallRun1890]

Just got back from that movie, feels weird seeing Woolie say he was turned off when the "setting up Phase onwards" part of the film happened. Because this movie has so little of that, so very little that if you weren't following the Phase 4 stuff, you'd just think the set-up for future movies would be........(SPOILERS) . . . . . . . . . The mid-credits with T'Challa's son, while that may be true, it just felt like a nice tribute to Chadwick Boseman, which the whole film sprinkles throughout. There isn't even a post credits in this movie, the set-up was just Valentina being a very minor character in this movie, but she never really does anything that makes you go "ah here's the Phase 5 stuff", she's just there, so if you didn't watch Falcon/Winter Soldier or Black Widow she'd just be the minor bad guy for Ross, an already minor character.

[@DevonPalmer98]

Rip Sue storm, Namor coming for that invisible booty

[@ichimaru96]

Namor truly is the booty warrior "I like ya and i wants ya"

[@Horatio787]

Love how the guy who hits on a married lady and is ignored by her is somehow the cool one.

[@senorsnout4417]

Be prepared for him to be cucked by John Krasinski.

[@Solqueen86]

@@Horatio787 but also the fact that the married lady's husband ignores her so bad almost every version of him is him being abusive, causing some major problem or feeding their kids to zombies as an experiment. Also the fact its openly hinted it was a major age gap and Reed was her teacher. Like Namor had a point. Sue could do better

[@Horatio787]

@@Solqueen86 While I can't deny Reed Richards sort of went off the deep end over time from writers making him awful in an attempt to make him more interesting, my view of him has always been the early comics where he's well meaning but always frustrated by his inability to cure Ben Grimm. The smartest man in the world who caused his best friend's condition with that genius but not genius enough to solve it. It's kind of like how Cyclops gradually became this emotionless psychopath after the Phoenix Saga. Also, Namor is a villain let's not kid ourselves. It's like they say, "Hot + Evil = Morally Complicated."

[@StardustSynchron]

The MCU jokes can really fall flat hard. The laughing on Doc Ock’s name was just awkward in No Way Home

[@music79075]

My favorite parts were with the central american guy, both when he illegally immigrated to another country by swimming through a river and especially when they defeated him by drying his back off and dumping him off in the desert. "We need to dry him off to defeat him!"

[@unversedhero6028]

Also remember, everyone that's not black is a colonizer... even though Wakanda let the actual colonizers do as they will... also never forget that the movie The Woman King was sold as "The Real Life Wakanda".

[@M7S4I5L8V2A]

Ok now I have to see it. I didn't see the first movie but I'm going to try and watch Wakanda Forever.

[@damonsghost9235]

@@unversedhero6028 You ain't wrong but that G&G crowd is in tha building!

[@TheHolySemiColon]

They had to give Namor SOME kind of weakness, because without it he and his army were legitimately unstoppable and were already just about to win at the end of the movie.

[@heardofrvb]

That is one big fat oof right there.

[@RaginBajan]

Sabretooth usually hangs out with Wolverine on his birthday. He probably wanted some backup

[@PerpetualDaydreamer]

This movie did feel a biiit less like the usual MCU, but yes, it does fall into those patterns. But I'm still very glad that the emotional weight was given proper time to process where it was needed, and that characters DID just...talk. It was a mess in parts but overall the movie was really enjoyable.

[@wumbojet]

I don't like the bechdel test as a general rule to good writing because it's way too specific. Some very progressive and even feminist pieces of media can fail the test depending on their plot and series of events and some incredibly misogynistic pieces of media can pass it. In my opinion it only serves to know if something passes the test, which doesn't mean anything by itself.

[@PregnantAdamSandler]

fun fact: the bechdel test was coined by a lesbian who used it in the context as whether or not they could pretend a female character in a movie was a lesbian. It was NEVER conceived as being meant to be a feminism test. It was just grabbed after a friend published it within her comic that still used the same context as it was coined.

[@joekewl7539]

@@PregnantAdamSandler IM SO GLAD SOMEONE MENTIONED IT. THANK YOU.

[@coldfrost3]

They bechdel test it like a super sold rule it just asked if 2 women in a movie could have a conversation its not some rigid super test.

[@DairunCates]

I agree it's not a great metric on individual films. A lot of films only have a very limited amount of named or talking characters. A female led post-apocalypse survival film would likely fail due to most of those movies being monologue. The problem is that around 6 out of 10 Oscar nominees STILL fail it. On a systemic level, so few films can manage a fairly easy criteria without several exceptions. Using it to test an individual film is stupid, but using it as a thought experiment on film as a whole is fine.

[@enemyv]

Even the people who care about it know it was never meant to praise/condemn individual films. It's about how weird it is that so many movies, ratio-wise, have a hard time passing it.

[@managarn8038]

Pat: Killmonger was the best villain, he made a lot of sense and was charismatic. Of course pat would love the guy that wanted to start a race war.

[@krodmandoon3479]

But is he going to be a real villain or a "black" villain?

[@RavenCloak13]

@Colticide No he thinks honor is stupid. Which it is. Honor is for the dead.

[@SefirothPH]

@colticide The world has always run on realpolitik, honor has literally never influenced an important decision of a nation ever

[@kaisersaucy6503]

@@RavenCloak13 Honor is bound to trust. It's the same stupid crap he spouted with the dueling with pistols. "Why dont I just shoot him and cheat" well idiot, because while you do win that fight or argument, the rest of the town knows youre a scumbag that cant be trusted now, and since you cheated the guy was probably in the right because youre a useless coward.

[@RavenCloak13]

@@kaisersaucy6503 No they don't. No one ever cared about that crap. Especially since you couldn't tell. You can only see one side of the fight in the split second it took to shoot and they are on either ends of the town.

[@MajoraZ]

Posting here, too: Since I know Woolie loves the Mesoamerican angle, here's my thoughts on the Mesoamerican influences in the film.... Overall, it's mixed: There's both a lot of cool details, a lot of things I think could have been done better, and a good amount i'm critical of. Firstly, to address the most obvious thing, Talokan is named after Tlalocan, one of the afterlifes in Aztec religion, namely the one reserved for people who died of drowning and a few other specific deaths, and was the realm of the Rain and storm god Tlaloc: Tlalocan was a lush garden paradise filled with plants, flowers, trees, streams, rivers, fountains, lakes, and pools (and in turn, many Mesoamerican cities and royal estates had large botanical gardens and complex aqueduct, plumbing, and resevoir networks, some of them even being designed to emulate the notion of a Tlalocan afterlife: Look up Huaxtepec or Texcotzinco, Mexicolore has a good article on this) However, there's actually a broader trend of the underworld and afterlife's being linked to water across Mesoamerica beyond the specific Tlalocan afterlife (just one of many) in Aztec mythology, and it is THIS I think where Talokan is mostly pulling from: While the main Aztec and Maya underworlds, Mictlan and Xibalba, aren't described in their entirety as being underwater, things like caverns, springs, pools of water (as well as mirrors) WERE viewed as underworld entrances and connected to those realms, and at Teotihuacan, a pre-Aztec metropolis that they took major cultural influences from, there are man-made caves and tunnels running beneath major temples modeled after watery underworlds. The film is pretty clearly drawing from this: The entrance to the underwater cavern outside of Talokan itself that Shuri was being held in is entered via a pool, which is in front of a sculpture which is a combination of a Cave Monster (most often seen in Epi-Olmec and Maya art, but also other Mesoamerican cultures, it's mouth representing the underworld) and Chaac (The Maya rain god, an analog to Tlaloc, though there's actually some debate on if the Chaac sculptures this one is based on, found on buildings in Maya sites using the Puuc architectural style, are actually Chaac or not). That area Shuri was held in is also clearly based on Cenotes, large sinkholes and caverns filled with water which were important sites to the Maya and tie into the aformentioned cave, pool, water, underworld etc stuff. The next biggest and most obvious point of symbolism involves Namor being called Kukulkan, the Yucatec Maya (also the language spoken in the film) name for the Feathered Serpent diety: This is a very widespread archetypical god shared by many Mesoamerican civilizations (in the same way that the Aztec Tlaloc, Maya Chaac, Zapotec Cocijo, etc are all versions of the same rain diety), other versions being the Kiche Maya Gucumatz or the Aztec Quetzalcoatl, Teotihuacan's Proto-Quetzalcoatl, the Olmec Avian-Serpent, etc. Broadly speaking, Feathered Serpent gods tend to have ties to rulership and priesthood (the Olmec Avian serpent is seen with rulers, In Aztec chronicles of the prior legendary Toltec civilization, the Toltec official Ce Acatl Topiltzin is heavily tied to Quetzalcoatl, etc), which is a good fit here as Namor as a god-king in Talokan. Additionally, the serpent half links the deity to the ground and mortal realm, while the feathered aspect to the sky and divine. Feathered Serpents so often represent both the boundary and crossing between these realms: Olmec Avian serpents are often depicted in urban thresholds between spaces, Quetzalcoatl in Aztec mythology travels to Mictlan to revive humanity, etc. This also ties into Namor's ability to move between both Talokan and the surface world. I originally wasn't sure if this was intended, but staff on the film implied it was! There was also loads of Conch imageru: Namor gives Ramonda a Conch shell to contact him, we see him using a bisected conch shell as a paint pallete (which was also done historically in Mesoamerica), some of his gold necklaces use gold beads in the shape of conches, and some of the neck embroidry on one of the Talokanil outfits Shuri gets has conches: these aren't just a reference to Talokan being underwater: Conches are play an important role in Mesoamerican iconography and culture, being used to generate music, sound and signals for ceremonies and in war, they were engraved or sculpted into ceremonial art and jewlery, and most importantly here, are heavily associated with the Aztec Feathered Serpent god Quetzalcoatl: Quetzalcoatl was a god of learning, the arts, priesthoods, speech, poetry, etc; and the wind as his aspect Ehecatl. He often wears a spiral conch shell cross section as a pendant, the "Wind Jewel", since conches produced both air and sound. In fact, speech, music, etc is often shown in Mesoamerican art as spiral gusts of air coming from one's mouth or objects, further tying these together, to the spiral shape of the Conch, and also to things like waves of water, the winding shape of a serpent, and the famous Mesoamerican step fret motif (which is what those spiral/meander patterns pop media slaps onto Mesoamerican things are trying to evoke) So, seems pretty good so far! But even if it WORKS, I have some misgivings with tying Namor to Kukulkan. Firstly, it seems weird to me to tie him to a Feathered Serpent god, the Yucatec Maya one, at that, and then name his kingdom after Tlalocan, especially given how the movie mentions Chaac in other contexts. I think going with Chaac or Tlaloc for who he is titled after may have worked better, especially also because such Rain gods all descend from Olmec Were-Jaguar sculptures (with the thick eyebrows and snarled mouth of those sculptures becoming the signature "Goggles" and "fangs" that Tlaloc, Chaac, etc have), so they could have gone for a Jaguar vs Panther theme. Admittedly, though, then you lose out on some of the symbolism Namor has with the dualist nature of Feathered Serpents. Blending Yucatec Maya and Aztec elements is also potentially questionable, though I personally don't mind it. Namor being associated with a god at all may also evoke the "Mesoamericans mistook people as gods" misconception/myth: I think the reference here is to Mesoamerican figures like Ce Acatl Topiltzin, rather then to the Spanish being misaken as gods, but I personally would have liked to see an explicit statement that the Talokanil know he is not a deity, and it's just a title. Nitpicks aside, my actual, serious criticisms are next: There is a lot of things that frame the Talokanil as primitive, in a way that both misrepresents Mesoamerican civilizations and society (and plays into existing widespread misconceptions), and doesn't work in the context of the film. The warriors are all basically naked, or with Namora and Attuma, wear very unsophisticated looking attire of bones, scrapped together looking sea-leather and sinew, and "feathers"/fish scales, with random jade plaques randomly strapped to to that. They use tortoise shells as shields, they use animals for transportation rather then any sort of vehicles. About half of the clothes we see Talokanil people wear look biege, dirty, and not well made, and Talokan itself seemingly only has one large painted structure, the rest seem to be run down concrete frames (evocative of sealab structures without glass) and kelp farms. I think the latter stuff and the use of animals might be trying to suggest their society is more like based around biological engineeering then machinery, but I don't think it works, and the soldier attire especially is clearly trying to be "Tribal". Even Namor's personal room in the Cenote, with gorgous painted murals, ornaments, decorations, that look REALLY well done and researched (based on depictions of Sacred Ceiba trees, Teotihuacano murals, real codex style pottery and ceramics, etc) is in a tiny hut that looks dingy from the outside. This is sadly pretty common in Mesoamerican media, but is very misrepresentative: Mesoamerican cities like Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan, Tikal, etc had many tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of denizens, and covered huge physical expanses: these were absolutely giant cities that matched some of the largest (though not THE absolute largest) in Europe at the same time. You had hundreds of huge temples, palaces, plazas, ball courts, and other structures which were richly painted and covered in sculptures and reliefs. Clothing, especially for nobles, was colorful and finely made, with rich patterns and motifs, finely made jewelry, etc. Warriors, again, especially high statusd ones, wore actual armor, with royal and elite military uniforms and garbs having fine stone and gem and metal inlays, etc. These were societies with courts, judges, diplomats, poets, merchants, scribes, etc. The fact that HISTORICAL Mesoamerican societies had more complex cities and finer clothing and more actual armor is not great, especially when Talokan is intended to be this hyper advanced society on par with Wakanda. Like, Wakanda still uses spears, which is silly, but at least they have skyscrapers, futuristic vehicles and spy suits, etc. However, all that said, the Talokanil are still shown as empathic human beings, not just as violent savages (unlike, say, in Apocalypto, or Lizardmen, etc), and even if not ALL of their clothing or infrastructure was bad: It's actually a pretty even mix (the warrior stuff aside) of negative and postive for the random Talokanil people (many women have colorful huipil blouses that look nice), and I have some real praise for some of the other outfits i'll describe below in a follow up comment, alongside some constructive criticism and other points of praise I couldn't segue into before. CONTINUED IN A REPLY BELOW:

[@MajoraZ]

CONTINUED FROM THE ABOVE: For starters, Talokanil piercings are consistently authentic and well done: Namor, Namora, and Attuma's earrings and nose/lip plugs are all taken more or less 1:1 from actual historical royal maya examples: Compare Namor's jade earrings to the earings from the death mask of Pacal the Great of Palenque, or Namora's from the death mask of The Red Queen. The outfit Shuri is given by Namor, the one with the many strings of Jade and red shell beads, was also amazing: The use of Jade plaques and beads there was extremely well done, and the contrast between that and the jade plaques on Namora and Attuma's war outfits is so huge. The red shell beads here are Spondylus, the shell of a Bivalve highly prized in both Mesoamerica and down in the Andes (the Inca, Nazca, etc), and historically the two regions had naval trade linking West Mexico to Ecuador (though to what extent is debated), in part spurred by Spondylus. In general, that outfit is what I WISH most Talokanil outfits were: It's a mix of traditional, accurate Mesoamerican ornamentation with a more modern, almost high-fashion/designer aspects with the underlying dress. Namora's more ceremonial outfit in the scene where Namor declares war is similarly good (though the geometric motifs on it are a bit generic). Attuma's ceremonial Tilmatli cloak and loincloth and such he has in the war declaration scene is alright: It looks sort of roughly made, but it's all at least in the right shape and colorful, and I dig the featherwork ornament strapped to the Tilma and the jade bead ankle braclets, and the Jaguar ones above them, pretty close to some actual Maya examples. Namor's jewlery and clothing ranges from pretty great to eh: I like the golden bead (again with the conches) and pearl necklaces he's often shown with: It's not like a super 1:1 match to Mesoamerican examples, but it's close enough (even if pearl wasn't used in art much). The Golden necklace he has with multiple hanging pearls, in the scene where he first meets Shuri in the Cenote in his painted room, is almost a 1:1 identical match to a specific gold Aztec necklace, where each golden piece is shaped like a Jaguar tooth: The only difference is the added hanging pearls here. I also dig the hooked nose Maya (Chaac?) golden armlets he has in that scene, very close to Maya art, and the white cloak/Tilmatli with the red trim is VERY close to actual Aztec examples, though a royal would have a blue geometric one with red or rainbow trims (Sadly his white/black wool looking tilmatli just has random googled "Aztec patterns" that aren't actually Mesoamerican). I think the pauldrons and braclets in that scene look a little Southeast Asian here rather then Mesoamerican, the Maya style engravings aside, but it looks cool. Same for his golden and blue serpent pectoral: Pectorals are one of those things that media tends to overuse and misuse in Mesoamerican themed things (In the same way media might slap turbans on Middle Eastern things regardless of context), but I'll accept it as a MCU-ified attempt at one, same for the gold arm and leglets he wears with it. I do wish the blue stones the serpents were carved from were Turquiose mosiac though: That was how Mesoamerican art made fancy blue things out of stone, not solid sculptured blue gemstone.... I CANNOT give his helmet/headdress a pass, though: I assume the helmet is based on the animal themed helmets worn by elite Aztec soldiers with Tlahuiztli warsuits, but it is so big and bulky here and the headdress, another thing media tends to misuse, might be one of the worst ones I've seen. The helmet should be simplified (but still fancy looking, just not as bulky), and rather then a headdress, it should have been a long tassel/plume/"ponytail" of green and multicolor "feathers"/fish scales coming out the back, like the Quetzallalpiloni tassels attached to the back of some Aztec warsuit helmets. Anyways, let's shift back to the whole primitivism/technology/infanstructure thing, and give some constructive suggestions: Again, the murals, decorations, ceramics, and other things INSIDE Namor's room in the Cenote was all excellent. There should have been way more of that. Way more of Talokan should have been like the big painted red building in the middle, and I would have liked to have seen more explicit Mesoamerican architectural motifs and designs. I do think the almost Art Deco look of that central structure is interesting, and there are some "Maya revival style" Art deco structures in real life, so maybe having that theme for the whole city would be neat. But I def want, like, actual complex infanstructure, glowing lights on buildings, multistory structures, maybe underwater tube things, etc. It should look as complex as Wakanda. As far as other technology: Even if the implementation was iffy, the IDEA of using fish scales in place of the feathers on Mesoamerican things is neat. I know more about Aztec armor then I do Postclassic Yucatec Maya military equipment, but you could easily turn the Tlahuiztli and Ehuatl warsuits and tunics (which were covered in tens of thousands of iridesecent feathers, arranged by color to indicate rank and unit position) used by high ranking Aztec soldiers into full body sci-fi suits that use iridesecent fish scales instead. Maybe the jaws of the animal themed helmets actually form a visor like a science fiction helmet and that's what's fulled with water rather then just a rebreather. Again, this is a very Aztec centric idea when I know Talokan is more Postclassic Yucatec Maya, but maybe their weapons could use like a liquid, flowing plasma or underwater flames: The dualism of fire and water represents warfare in Aztec iconography, and would give them advanced energy weapons. Maybe Atlatl (a projectile weapon that cradles a dart and acts as a lever to multiply your throwing power to launch the projectile) that fires plasma bolts, etc. Some Maya gladiatorial boxers also used conch shells as boxing gloves/gauntlets, having like cybernetic versions of that as weapons might be cool, too, would tie into this aquatic theme. (There';s also some murals at Bonampak which shows lobster themed ritual outfits which could make cool armor). Also, since the whole "Talokanil soldiers getting back up after being mortally wounded" thing never went anywhere, unless I missed it, maybe that could be explained and tie into the Talokanil having advanced technology to transfer/store life forces from one person to another: This could represent sacrifice (which was less about death, and more about feeding the gods and cosmos to allow the continued prosperity of life) and could also tie into Shuri's moral dilemma of letting go of the past or not: Maybe she could be given a choice of letting go of the past or not: Maybe she could be given a choice to actually sacrifice the scientist girl to bring T'chalia or her mother back. Finally, just to loop back to some other cool references to Mesoamerican things I couldn't naturally segue into before: I dig how when Namor's mother was buried, she's wrapped in a mortuary bundle and a bead is placed in the mouth, which is a real Mesoamerican burial practice. Namor's actions in the film may also tie into the real way Mesoamerican politics and diplomacy worked: Kingdoms and empires rarely directly governed their subjects, and as a result, subject states often kept their own political ambitions and interests, and would often ally with one another to then turn on their capitals or take out their political rivals, and inviting rulers and diplomats of other cities into your own to flaunt it's grandeur was a way to court for alliances and political marriages, similar to what Namor does with Shuri. The Talokanil salute, beyond representing shark jaws or heralding the sun (which is IIRC what is said it's based on in interviews), may also be a reference to poses found in many surviving Mesoamerican manuscripts and books, which likewise shows people with vertical hands facing open on top one another, the same pose also see in some Maya sculptures and other examples of Mesoamerican art, though I admit i'm not informed of the symbolism behind tt, and again, interviews don't say it was the origin, so it may be a coincidence. Sharks do, however, also play a major role in Maya culture, with shark teeth being engraved and used in art, in tools, or for ritual bloodletting, and sharks also being depicted in Maya art. There's a great Ars Technica article about some studies on this. We can see some engravings on the giant Shark jaw in the center of Talocan too, which are very close to Maya engravings found on Conch shells at some Mesoamerican sites, too. Finally, i'm fairly sure Namor's flying is based on how Hummingbirds fly, with a similar darting and zig-zag motion, and the wings moving so fast they become a blur: Hummingbirds are a key part of the culture of many Prehispanic cultures (not just Mesoamerican ones, but down in the Andes such as by the Moche, Inca, etc as well), where they are associated with warfare and warriors: Huitzilopochtli is the patron god of the Mexica of the Aztec captial, for example, and is a war diety and is heavily tied to hummingbirds. Hummingbird feathers are also heavily used in art, where their iridesecence, like the feathers of Quetzals and some other birds, was highly prized: Aztec warsuits, shields, helmets, etc were covered in tens of thousands of feathers, arranged by color to make different patterns indicating rank and unit division, and the Aztec/Nahuatl word for war attire, Tlahuiztli, means "To glitter", from the glimmering iridesence of the feathers. There's even some cathloc "paintings" made of feathers by Aztec artists during the early colional period, and these are really cool and I highly suggest looking them up!

[@dantetouchdown9030]

Bro chill out and breathe some air

[@elyasmacherawb]

Bro really out here writing a whole ass essay in youtube comments. That's powerful shit man

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

listen man, i respect the passion, but this is a Wendy's.

[@thatdude10000000]

I am here for this ted talk. Namor flying through the air like a humming bird I didn't catch. The lack of tech was odd if the viberium had such a drastic effect on wakanda then it should have done more for namor's folks. There's also how they made the water bombs and were tracking in a way that suggested tech.

[@Floraclaw]

I was Marveled out after End Game. Shang-Chi is maybe my favorite phase 4 movie. Cause it felt like a magic action/adventure kung-fu movie. The after post credit scenes and they bring two of the big names of the Avengers to talk with Shang-chi, I loathed that whole bit. I just remembered, "Oh right, There are a bunch of BS that this movie is now tied too". I was just enjoying Shang-Chi just for being a Kung-fu movie as is.

[@xXCrimsonArkXx]

I’m really hoping with the next Spider-Man trilogy they start jettisoning some of the Universe aspects and starts focusing more on self-contained films. Also let directors go full Sam Raimi with their respective film and make it look completely different. Comics within the same universe can have different art styles, why can’t films? The Batman I felt really exposed just how mediocre the look (and even the sound in some cases) of almost all of the MCU films really are.

[@msbkaioken136]

Saying almost all the MCU movies look the same is factually false and can be proven so in seconds they're being a cohesion with the MCU is not a negative in the slightest it's obviously to help it feel like a connected universe but even with that being said you can absolutely feel the director's touch especially when they do more than one movie you literally just like the Batman more doesn't mean you have to go lying about stuff or being delusional I love the Batman as well doesn't invalidate an entire 20 years of work

[@leithaziz2716]

I'm sad WB won't let Matt Reeves (that the name?) direct a sequel for now. The movie's so refreshing in style and atmosphere. Even for people who've gotten fatigued with superhero movies, they should check it out. Speaking of Batman, RIP Kevin Conroy.

[@msbkaioken136]

@@leithaziz2716 Matt Reeves is indeed his name but I don't really know what you're talking about it's already been confirmed a sequel is going to happen we already have multiple spin-off TV shows coming which have been confirmed to directly have involvement of Matt Reeves so there's literally no reason to assume he's not directing the sequel

[@jimbob1862]

I know people were iffy on Multiverse of Madness but damn if it didn't feel like a Raimi film, and that was more than enough for me when compared to a lot of the MCU They sold it on that and let the man go as far as he could with a PG-13, and he nails it still

[@TheMilhouseExperience]

That won’t happen until after people stop fetishizing high school Peter Parker.

[@WeaponOfMyDestructio]

Wakanda watches Roots for the schadenfreude.

[@NoPantsBaby]

Aqua Mexicans vs African North Korea.

[@majdjinn5042]

Aguaman and the Blue Man Group Vs Ethnostate Dark Mode

[@dariusfafoutakis8021]

Also guys it's not franchise fatigue. It's that the franchise has reduced its quality of writing. You don't get fatigue from something consistently good across time. You feel this though when something familiar and strong has degraded to weak and predictable.

[@Pokemen396]

Yea, pokemon is def in that category

[@dariusfafoutakis8021]

@@Pokemen396 Pokémon been sucking at writing a story for a long time.

[@cynthius6567]

You can get burnt out on anything, honestly. I don't think it's a matter of a drop in quality, it's just too much over too long. Marvel expects people to be excited for something after everyone getting used to the same expectations and formulas over more than a decade of movies, and the novelty has worn off for people who've been with it from the start. And for new people... well, they have over 100 hours of canon media now they have to sit through to get up to speed just to watch whatever's releasing at the time without spoilers, and every year that initial investment Marvel's demanding is getting bigger and bigger. It's bloated and stagnated to the point where regardless of quality, it's simply _conceptually_ exhausting and uninteresting, let alone practically.

[@kaisersaucy6503]

Except the writing in this one was fine? It's better than some of the movies in Phase 1-3. Literally play all the Yakuza games back to back and pretend you won't get burned out even though they're all solid.

[@rikowolfin4984]

I think its a bit of both, people were getting burnt out at the height of the MCU when the writing was top notch, it's only now that the writing has taken a heavy dip and with zero solid plans moving forward for anyone to be interested in ( No one gives a shit about Kang ) it has resulted in nothing to help relieve some of that fatigue off of people.

[@Mr.Faust3]

Is Ryan gosling the new black panther woolie?

[@diegomedina9637]

I don't know. Rick and Morty already nuked that test real nicely a couple of years ago.

[@Skullnaught]

Reminder that the Bechdal test was made as a joke

[@vidmuncher]

It was, but the punchline cuts at a few different demographics simultaneously, though likely unintentionally. You can't laugh at the lady denying herself the vast majority of media on account of a highly specific test......without also questioning how so many properties are failing such a test that's also SO SIMPLE. It's also kinda low key Socratic as you have to have more than token female presence and interaction within a work to stand a chance of passing. All that said though, it's just A metric - not THE metric. It isn't a golden ruler - and neither is feminism, for that matter. They're all tools for analysis and growth.

[@daquenking5261]

Werewolf by night was pretty different.

[@leithaziz2716]

Also I think had the most positive reception.

[@TheShockVox]

It’s one of the only good things.,

[@cthulhubrain574]

The phenomenon of villains who are actually in the right (and then have to be written to eat babies or whatever) is a major marvel problem (ike pat said) and a major problem in all forms of media, especially now. It's purposeful, however. With marvel in particular, it's a symptom of the values held by the company; why would they paint people fighting oppression as 'terrorists'? (comics: xmen, avengers vs xmen, post phoenix-five treatment of cyclops, the terrigen cloud killing mutants, everything until krakoa). How does that look? Why continue to paint a jewish victim of the holocaust as a villain who's going around killing innocents? Why paint people who are critical of shield (overpowered tyrannical spynetwork gov) as badguys? The same reason they thought it was a good idea to make captain america steve rogers (who was created as a take-that against nazism, by two jewish men) a secret nazi. It's purposeful and insidious. And they keep getting away with it.

[@Comiccow6]

On the topic of Magneto specifically, him being a Holocaust survivor isn't meant to be a justification for his actions, it's meant to be an added layer of tragedy and irony that in trying to prevent the horrors of the past, he's actively repeating them. Magneto wants to prevent mutant genocide, but by preemptively attacking humans, he creates an environment of fear and hatred towards mutants that he sees as further justification for his actions. It's no coincidence that Magneto is the charismatic leader of a "Brotherhood" that sees himself and his kind as the perfect people, and that the "lesser people" must be exterminated before they become threats.

[@cthulhubrain574]

@@Comiccow6 The horrific implications painting a holocaust survivor as a villain who has gone 'too far' in his fight against oppression is what's important here. There are other ways to add nuance without implicitly supporting bigot right-wing rhetoric and ideals. It highlights a bigger problem with the values of the people behind these characters and story decisions. It highlights a major issue with the people okay-ing these decisions.

[@darrianweathington1923]

So black panther 3 their casting Pat as the next black panther right?

[@Timey254]

It's really interesting to contrast the MCU and most of Star Wars for that matter with Andor... it takes itself (and the viewer) absolutely serious, no quips or anything and it's better for it. The point I consider it the best piece of Star Wars storytelling to date now.

[@clanofclams2720]

"Besh-dell"

[@KitsyX]

The more you know about culture and/or slavery or colonisation, the less sense Killmonger makes... Not all black people are part of one big tribe for a start... Which is partly why some Africans were very happy to sell their slaves, from other groups of black people that they caught, to the Europeans... Some got very rich from the slave trade... There were the odd few black slave owners that fought to keep slavery during the American civil war too... Also, at that time in history, it seems that stuff akin to slavery was pretty commonplace all over the world... Maybe until the British started making efforts to end it and finally got other countries on board with the idea... I mean, the U.S. and maybe others had their internal arguments too, which I believe was independent of the British efforts, but it wasn't aimed at the world... The British started enforcing and pressuring against slavery around the world... Probably not 100% for selfless reasons, but you know? Wakanda probably could have done more, but what cultures do you interfere with? On what levels do you interfere on? They probably couldn't do anything exceedingly wide reaching without becoming an empire... Like the colonisers that they so deride... And it's tough, because as much as you help the people around you, there's always the chance that they could turn on you... They show the world turning on Wakanda in this movie, even though they had started to help more... As long as they have any superiority, they will likely be seen as a threat... But once they aren't a threat, someone will likely try to take what they have left... The secrecy might arguably have been better for the world and not just Wakanda... It's a tough call...

[@mikaelamonsterland]

Ironheart being in the movie isnt a spoiler btw, she was in the trailers and there's toys of her everywhere too

[@Thissentenceisfalselosers]

Oh god, Woolie’s right. MCU Namor really is Kotal Kahn.

[@Biodeamon]

I want a villain who's entire motivation isn't him just thinking he's owed shit just because he exists.

[@guardiansparky1766]

I would have loved a whole movie of just them addressing the State of the world's politics and economy post blip tbh, since the only other marvel property that tried to do that fell flat on its face and tried to quote Kratos.

[@paexie]

The thing about the Bechdel test that a lot of folks miss is that it's to be able to separate the idea that woman and men's only relationship is romantic or sexual. They talk about a man, yes, but how he is mentioned is important too! Remember this was in reference to a comic about lesbian and queer experiences and having something other than usual romance talk is nice.

[@night1952]

It's an awful metric.

[@RavenCloak13]

Reminder, Queen's Blade passes the Bechtel Test with flying colors. There is literally an article about it to explain WHY the Bechtel Test is trash dog. It's not a good metric what so ever because that isn't what they wanted. It's why test like this are stupid because fiction just GOES PLACES.

[@REDDAWNproject]

Th bechdel test was never supposed to be good, it was just a very bitter lesbian comic artist being mad that men exist.

[@kaisersaucy6503]

@@REDDAWNproject so like the Harkness test, where its just a stupid braindead Tumblr meme test so they can justify why they wanna pork the animal/alien instead of just not caring about that because the characters in question dont exist both as fiction and because theyre fantasy creatures.

[@paexie]

Some of you are really mad at this for some reason. You do you, let people have opinions about what movies they would want to see more of too! You all have silly metrics that allow you to have a better overall experiance.

[@mikaelamonsterland]

i am more invested in mcu stuff rn bc i love reading comics and looking up such and such obscure character and reading about them on a wiki if i want to have more context for them. everything with Kang the Conqueror has me really excited tbh

[@kurowasanabe]

I just wish they didn't mess with the characters I like. Comic Namor is fun because he's just an unrepentant dick. I still haven't forgiven the MCU for fucking up Taskmaster.

[@Tuikkal]

We finally have an anti-vax superhero

[@cranberry_the_xviii9458]

"It would have been a bad call" But Woolie the pie slayer, Boseman said it was LITERALLY what he wanted if he died☠️ He thought of the Black Panther role no different then how James Bond changes era to era.

[@clanofclams2720]

Well he was wrong

[@cranberry_the_xviii9458]

@@clanofclams2720 Huh?😳 Fam🤦🏽‍♂️

[@clanofclams2720]

@@cranberry_the_xviii9458 just because he's dead doesn't mean he's correct, _fam._

[@cranberry_the_xviii9458]

@@clanofclams2720 Dawg, literally what are you saying. He's the one who embodied the character and Marvel said that they did it out of respect to HIM. How can HE be wrong about how he felt about HIS ROLE if he DIED? You on pcp or somethin???

[@clanofclams2720]

@@cranberry_the_xviii9458 he was an actor. That's it. He acted in a movie. He is not an authority on how the character should be done in the future. "Embodied" lmao just say you have no idea what an actor does.

[@lancelot717]

Well maybe the "usual people" being mad about that character have a point because she's fucking terrible and written like a villain in her source material?

[@KrytenKoro]

Lol how was she written like a villain? Because she was outspoken? And what's with the scare quotes around usual people? It *is* the usual suspects, bounding into comics and other ultra trad communities who constantly whinge about women and minorities in comics.

[@lancelot717]

​@@KrytenKoro It wasn't because she was outspoken or a minority, it was because despite everyone around her NOT judging her by those merits she had a psychotic need to create false adversity for herself and bully her teacher into saying something racist for her to get a hate boner over. After lots of dialogue winging over how this teacher refuses to treat her student badly, she settles on telling Riri that "she'll never be Tony Stark." Which makes her fucking decide that's what she has to do? All of her other interactions stem from that and what a self-absorbed-nigh-irredeemable cunt she is and the only reason one would call her a hero is because that's what the writers tell us she is. But don't take my word for it, how people react to her writing is a litmus test for how deranged you have to be to carry on an ideology.

[@fred15228]

This is the ready player one for black people

[@thenegromancer4695]

On goooooood

[@TheShockVox]

How so?

[@fred15228]

@@TheShockVox good representation

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

@@fred15228 wait, who was Ready Player One good representation for? oh... is that the point?

[@fred15228]

@@miguelnewmexico8641 it’s representing gamers

[@panchojohnson1225]

The “…and that’s why we need to kill everyone.” is kinda how real villains work. “These Russians monarchs are terrible…” “… and that’s why we need a tyrannical police state.”

[@FrozenOver0]

"No, no, you see, when MY side said we needed to kill/censor/oppress/police everyone, we were doing it for the right reasons, though, so we were right. The movies say that doing some things are wrong, no matter what greater good you're trying to achieve, and that makes my side look bad, so the movie is bad. When they do the same thing for people whose causes I disagree with, though, they're right."

[@Coconut-219]

@@FrozenOver0 To shamelessly steal a joke: "Wakanda: it's okay when we do it"

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

might makes right.

[@Skullnaught]

"Killmonger was right" Uhhhhhhhhhh

[@clanofclams2720]

Yes.

[@befuddlingvisage5427]

@@clanofclams2720 about them being xenophobic isolationists with a dumb coronation ritual, yes. Dominating the world and cutting down anyone that stands in the way, no

[@clanofclams2720]

@@befuddlingvisage5427 it's almost like they explain said bad writing excuse in the video

[@befuddlingvisage5427]

@@clanofclams2720 I know but I feel the need to say it again. There are a surprising number of people who don't find it dumb or offensive

[@BeamMonsterZeus]

These gentlemen would benefit from discovering Nerdrotic. In fact, anybody who actually likes the comic book industry should check him out.

[@LilAnonomus]

I was ready to check out of Marvel long before Infinity War/Endgame, but I decided to push on until that storyline concluded. I wish Marvel would take a break from superheroes and the MCU for a while. Also, I love Moon Knight and the show was really good, but it ends in my heart at episode 5. Compared to that the end is a wet poot.

[@PregnantAdamSandler]

I hated the marvel mini-series (Loki and Wandavision specifically) because it always begins "oh we're doing something different, forget everything you know" and then during the last half or third they go "FUCK YOU! IT WAS A MARVEL MOVIE THIS WHOLE TIME!"

[@TomboTime]

Marvel is always at its best when it stops being Marvel and does anything remotely creative or away from the formula

[@Katagara84]

Hope this one lives up to the excitement generated by the first one. When I saw it like a year ago, I was kind of shocked when the Best Picture nominated Black Panther turned out to be kind of mid in everything but set design and costumes after hearing people going wild about it for years.

[@Coconut-219]

'HE DOESN'T KNOW - OMEGALUL'

[@ryangallagher8194]

I found it to be a pretty significant improvement over the first one. The first had a lot of good parts to it, but felt very basic in its plot and execution, just with some very good performances holding it together. There was some more going on in this one.

[@Katagara84]

@@ryangallagher8194 Well that's good to hear. Every time tech sister quipped or memed in the first one made my soul want to leave its mortal shell, so hopefully that's not the case this time.

[@corwinchapman4565]

I always just wanted a romcom starring captain america, or a heist movie starring Ant-Man, or a political drama, or what have you. Any MCU movie without action! How about a christmas family movie like planes trains and automobiles, or jingle all the way, and the main character just so happens to be someone relevant to the MCU.

[@ryangallagher8194]

You might be going to get what you want with the holiday special coming up.

[@EricHernandez-vx8cv]

The first Ant-Man literally was a heist movie, and we have the Guardians Holiday Special that deals with the Guardians trying to cheer up Peter form being depressed about Gamora.

[@Dat1AsianGuy]

I'll keep watching mcu, or reading marvel/dc stuff, but I'm with Woolie where many people are feeling the burn out. This is the fault of mcu/disney pumping the films out instead of taking their time. Though the arguement could also be that there are people who can't wait on the next thing mcu make But personally, i think mcu need to take a break at least a year to develop or draft. At the very least slow down on them releases.

[@marshallw1902]

I love you guys, but I'll have to respectfully disagree on this "mcu fatigue" nonsense, I get being overwhelmed by everything and the topic of formulaic and its many shortcomings, but most of the time it isn't like that and is mostly spreaded around by repeative haters wanting aggressive clicks. I get being casual about it and not full on engaging everything that releases, but never say never on being "Mcu'ed out", its always topical one way or another whether you're interested or not.

[@lewa3910]

kinda surprised how negative sounding this comes off as despite how many times woolie calls it generally 'a good movie'. Personally it's my favourite of this phase, & I know it's not perfect, but all that character stuff i think was done the best in this movie of All this phases movies. The only sequel setting up stuff i felt was from Martin Freeman's character who looked like he was shot completely on a different set to everyone else🤣

[@justinhearst]

Not gonna lie, this movie was good. But as Woolie said, there is a sense of being MCU'd out. As I've felt as well. it would be better if they just either spread out the releases longer, or go in completely different directions with the movies and product, the feeling won't be so immense.

[@HectorLopez0217]

Killmonger is not the best villain(imo it’s Thanos, Loki, Zemo, or Vulture) he was willing to overthrow other sovereign nations, and kill their kids it’s Michael B Jordan performance. Also Karli in Falcon and Winter Solider was crazy before the finale when she blew up a building killing three civilians, and thanks to Sam left Sokova’s borders in shambles

[@TheShockVox]

He’s considered the best because he not only has a point, but his actions lead to overall betterment. Not because he was about to kill and overthrow the world, but because he pointed out the flaws and served as an example of what Waknda’s isolationist ideals could and did lead to. Thanos, Loki, Zemo, and Vulture are good antagonists in their own rights as well, but Killmonger was the first one who was “right”, but handled it in all the wrong ways. That’s where T’Challa comes in. He highlights T’Challa by showing T’Challa unlike those before him has the heart and just mind to not handle things the way Killmonger did, but still acknowledge where Killmonger was right and have the courage and strength to change things.

[@Biodeamon]

to be fair the UN had it coming

[@wildercerrate7295]

Namor was right

[@speedy2davey]

I think Pat should try to get on an episode of E.F.A.P., he seems to recognize how bad the writing has been for these Marvel movies and shows for a while now.

[@Beaze17]

Idk I get the criticism but I definitely didn't feel that in this movie. To me the conversations and themes carried the action scenes. The quality of the plot made you care about the stakes in the fights. And not only that but a lot of the stuff was way more visceral than your typical marvel movie these days. Plus for the first time in a long time it feels like the resolution of this movie will have lasting consequences in the MCU. And that's all I can say without spoilers. But that's my 2 cents .

[@TheShockVox]

Yeah it’s weird this movie is the one to make him burn out, and not the previous two. This one felt like a breath of fresh air. Legitimate stakes, and there was actual concern on what the results would be. It was the first Marvel movie in a LONG time where I was consistently engaged. I think Woolie’s kind of underselling it. Not that it’s the BEST movie ever, but the action at the end feels earned.

[@kusoichi._.]

17:15 is he talking ab ironheart?

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

the villains in falcon winter soldier were awful but yeah i guess they started fine

[@johnaldridge83]

I'm in a different place with the movie especially. All the talking and political stuff was good but when it got to the end and the action, that was kind of a relief. I was needing some cool fights and the movie had been lacking on that to the point. The end fight was fantastic and what really brought the movies theme to its point. After Love and Thunder I was feeling the MCU burn out, but after Ms Marvel, She-Hulk and this all being fantastic, that feeling is gone. Wakanda Forever was probably the best of Phase 4, I need to watch No Way Home again, but WF was fantastic start to finish.

[@TheShockVox]

I agree. With WF. I didn’t see MM yet and I found She Hulk not very engaging as a sitcom. The action at the end felt earned.

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

you two are on your own.

[@JPGameStuffs]

Kilmonger's ideas were solid, but his methods...yeesh

[@music79075]

I knew comic book movies were dying when the first Avengers movie came out. Not because i was sick of it then or because I wanted them to. But because they are Comic Book superhero movies and they suffer from the same built in flaw that the Comic book supes do. They have a life cycle. This cycle has played out at least 7 times in the comics. The cycle is as follows. 1. Superhero is created. 2. The sequel is made. 3. People want other superheroes so others are created. 4. Repeat until interest starts to wane. 5. Announce crossover event 6. Introduce more superheroes with the express purpose of future crossovers. 7. Crossovers everywhere and now people need to get the other stories in order to know whats going on. As before where each plate was separare exist for a little mixing here or their now they have become a casserole. Step 8 The Blender Massive Giga crossover event of all heroes. E.g. House of M, A.X.E, Crisis, infinite crisis, final crisis, Dark Knight Metal, Doomsday Clock, etc etc. By this point the series have merged into a Franchise and have become too cumbersome for the average person to get into. And so Enter scene right: Step 9 THE RESET Be it "soft" or "hard" the Franchises "top men" beholden to share holders and unwilling to make a new thing after investing the company in this direction for decades realize the only way forward... is backwards and reset everything to page 1. They may allow the original "verse" to continue on as a separate entity for the loyal customers who have been ardently following it but its the side project now. Now you get the "Ultimate" universe or the like OR you get a soft reset where their are references to the prior tirning of the wheel and possibly even plot hooks that affect the current spin but it IS a new universe. The MCU movie planners were aware of this when it was just Marvel and it is why they likely would have ended it with the Thanos arc save for the occasional "hey isnt this cool" addition afterwards. Unfortunately Disney, the masters of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, will just continue churning this stuff out until they eventually pull a Hard Reset where itll be very very similar stories if not exactly the same frame by frame but maybe their races or sex will be different

[@miguelnewmexico8641]

all things die.

[@music79075]

@@miguelnewmexico8641 a rebooted franchise is like a zombie if its just treading the same path

[@speedy2davey]

The MCU has been pretty shit since Endgame, and even that movie had MAJOR story problems.

[@NinjaxShadowXx]

I loved it but man I missed our boi Chadwick 🥲

[@irvinezekiel]

This was probably one of the most underwhelming movies in the MCU, along with the rest of phase 4.

[@oldmatedave2382]

As someone who just did rdr2 100% then now god of war ragnarok 100% (no spoilers) I am done with loss themed things for a bit lol

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

i just dont care about any comic movies besides suicide squad anymore lol def not gonna watch this until streaming

[@BTM8109]

"killmonger was right" C'mon guys

[@FrozenOver0]

Given the corners of the internet I've been in, I was honestly just relieved for the particular reasons they said he "was right." I've seen way, WAY worse arguments for why he "was right." Sure the reasons they discuss also have their issues, but this conversation could have gone much worse.

[@TheShockVox]

He was right. His overall critique on how Wakanda could’ve done more for other people with their vast advancements and resources was on point. What was WRONG was his actions, and the actions he attempted to carry out. THAT’S why they needed Killmonger AND T’Challa.

[@adamvegas5951]

@@TheShockVox Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember at one point killmonger proposed basically conquering the various colonizing nations meaning he didn’t want oppression to end just switching who was oppressed granted he’s right that wakanda could have helped the people who became victims of the slave trade though. I see him as half right but with an overall negative solution

[@clanofclams2720]

He is

[@RavenCloak13]

@@adamvegas5951 The thing was Wakanda didn't want to be the rulers of the world. They wanted to keep to themselves. They would immediately become the rulers since they were the most advance and brilliant and giving people you view as dumbass fucks access to something like the cure for cancer is DANGEROUS. Your giving them access on how to cure cellular defects and being able to fix that. Wouldn't be hard to reverse engineer that to make weapons of war, to give people cancer, to take out some "defect" you saw like another persons ethnicity. Cancer is a very wide range thing. Different kinds of cancers exist that are based in the same concept of defective cell division. The technology they have is DANGEROUS in the wrong hands. Them being isolationist was actually a good thing overall. Not to mention Killmonger LITERALLY IS CALLING HIMSELF KILL AND MONGER. He is evil out the gate and just pretends to be good on false platitudes and is charismatic enough to pull it off but he is evil to his core even though you understand his points. For fuck sake, Wakanda was one of those tribes that fought other tribes in the past so they wouldn't be wiped out or be made slaves but instead of becoming conquers with there advance tech and knowledge, they went the peaceful route and just let the world change around them as they isolated. T'Challa only considers revealing to the world proper about Wakanda after he sees the world has gotten to a point they could more correctly use the technology and cultural advancements Wakanda made instead of just going to war with it or abusing it completely. Tony being the main person along with the other geniuses of the world.

[@RavenCloak13]

Oh and the Bechtel Test is stupid since Queens Blade, Touhou and other big female cast shows or fan service shows pass it with flying colors and are not what the original creator had in mind for the test and would still call those shows or games misogynistic.

[@nevy4256]

I've heard Namor is really cool in the movie, like the Spanish communities version of seeing Wakanda an shit is what I heard from my buddy

[@gin9410]

As a Mexican, i love Namor and everything about him

[@nevy4256]

@@gin9410 Glad to hear they repped it good. Love the WoL PFP, btw

[@gin9410]

thanks

[@ArosNacht]

Namor’s worst part about him is his design, it’s so stupid looking

[@BIGBLUBLUR]

He's literally the best part of the movie I thought. I'm black tho, so I can't speak for the community, but he was extremely compelling and lifted up an otherwise pretty subpart flick.

[@mattrossini1755]

Is this Shrek 2 for black people?

[@Zolototo]

The only decent thing to come out of marvel phase 4.

[@msbkaioken136]

Obviously false but keep lying to yourself

[@venomfuryx3250]

No Way Home is also phase 4

[@Zolototo]

@@venomfuryx3250 i completely forgot about no way home. Yeah than I liked 2 things in phase 4.

[@conspiracyspider]

Actually this is phase 5 not 4

[@kronos1794]

Wakanda forever is the last film of phase 4.

[@damonsghost9235]

People are saying killmonger *was* right not [is right]. You protest too much. Comments look suspect 🤔

[@majdjinn5042]

"it's a good movie but I'm tired of it" it's not a good movie then ... His account of why people got tired of comics is revisionist at best or just not true at worst. Fundamental problem of DC and Marvel is retreading and lack of stakes along with insane collector farming with issues/covers and number 1s. Guess what a character coming back to life loses its punch. It officially has stopped being good the moment it wanes.

[@leithaziz2716]

The collector farming stuff is fine, but that's something where you need to commit to a niche (but still large considering the brand) audience instead of trying to have your cake and eat it. Loreheads will love the nods, but to the average joe, it's too much. Allthough it would be nice to stop trying to fit everyone into one single continuity.

[@majdjinn5042]

@@leithaziz2716 Oh yeah let's not even start with the age old question "Where do I start" But I don't know there's some seedy shit in the back end that was straight poison and left just product on the shelf. 500 orders to get an alt. It also strangled shop owners

[@waitselljones8068]

A movie can be good even if it has tiring tropes. WTF are you talking about? Black Panther 2 IS a good movie, and it DOES use tiring tropes. This isn't mutually exclusive. The tiring tropes keeps it from being a GREAT or FANTASTIC movie.

[@majdjinn5042]

@@waitselljones8068 ...what's good about it and not the send up to Chadwick dying.

[@TheMilhouseExperience]

The marketing is literally Chadwick Boseman’s gravestone.

[@TheTexasDice]

You don't have to feel obligated to do mental gymnastics, Woolie. My black friends all hated this movie because it's garbage.

[@KrytenKoro]

Man, it really sucks how hard the spfp fan community has leapt into just being another 8chan.

[@damonsghost9235]

They don't care about cape shit in super hero movies? Might as well stop watching. If they abandon super heroics stop making comic movies. They took scifi out of comics. The fantastic descriptions of action. The similes and metaphors. The variety. Each person fought in thier own way. It's just the MCU's lack of variety between abilities and approaches. As well as the lack of consequence to violence that makes it uninteresting.

[@pokehybridtrainer]

Easily, the MCU war line action scenes I am so sick of at this point. I was so good with everything until the war scene, like it could have been thrown away.

[@glass12]

I thought it was pretty boring. It lacked any memorable sequences or moment. Pretty bland.

[@blackdragoncyrus]

Like.

[@hassanico9999]

You realize the Bechdel test was always asinine garbage right?

[@xXXJimboSliceXXx]

It's ironic that all movies are forced to pass the Bechdel Test while literally every real woman fails it.

[@msbkaioken136]

Facts

[@GnostalgicMnemonic]

You're misunderstanding what the Bechdel Test is, I think. Because basically _every_ woman's had a conversation with another named woman about something other than a man. Those are the only parameters. There needs to be two women, (preferably with names,) who talk to each other about something other than a man. The ease of passing it is part of the point, btw - it was originally, and still kinda is, a silly wink-wink-nudge-nudge lesbian joke. But apparently the number of films that _didn't_ pass it back when it was "made" was rly noticeable.

[@rhair7143]

Bro you've never seen two real ladies in the same room talking 😬 ooof

[@RavenCloak13]

@@GnostalgicMnemonic *looks at Queen's Blade being the highest rated Bechtel Test show/media in existence*

[@GnostalgicMnemonic]

@@RavenCloak13 just looked it up - as someone with standards i'm hesitant to say anything but as a massive hopeless lesbian queen's blade looks like it's exactly the sort of dumb shit my closeted ass would secretly obsess over as a teen i think stuff like Signalis is more in the spirit of what Bechdel was trying to look for though, lmao.

[@msbkaioken136]

God the bechdel test is so stupid if I'm not mistaken wasn't it mentioned in Rick and Morty and they ragged on it like it should be

[@gwotkid]

It's a really low bar and also straight-up doesn't apply in romance media. But it's still good to avoid making 1-dimensional characters in any sense, women or otherwise.

[@rhair7143]

The purpose of the Bechdel test was to prove a point that there is a strange abundance of unnamed forgettable female characters only there for the male characters. I don't think it should be used as an end all be all of feminism film making. Just make interesting films people PLEASE

[@msbkaioken136]

@@gwotkid if it's a low bar to clear then literally what's the point and the fact that the caveat of it not applying is romance media seems hilariously ironic there's a billion better ways to make sure you write good characters other then this goofy worth no one's time test

[@Hegataro]

the author of the comic that it came from hates it because it was meant to be a joke mocking the idea of such a criteria for watching movies - in the comic itself the character that brings it up says that she hasn't been able to watch a movie since Alien, which released at least 6 years before the comic

[@msbkaioken136]

@@rhair7143 if that was it's purpose it was flawed from its Inception because there is not an abundance of any media containing no named women just being man man man man the entire time that's ridiculous unless you want to bring up the hilarious caveat of romance stuff then you know all Shucks it doesn't count because you know that genre is catering towards women so you know we can't insult our demographic by pointing out how they like to talk about men all the time

[@TheMilhouseExperience]

Why weren’t people this sad when T’chaka, T’Challa’s father, was assassinated?

[@damonsghost9235]

Because Chadwick Boseman actually died.

[@TheMilhouseExperience]

@@damonsghost9235 Doesn’t that mean that Disney is profiting off a dead man’s gravestone? Sounds gross if you ask me.

[@damonsghost9235]

@@TheMilhouseExperience Hmm 🤔 not sure about that. The IP, franchise is bigger than one man. Many believe Chadwick would have wanted them to recast. They definitely were not gonna cancel this. They could have tried to GC his face on somebody else.

[@TheShockVox]

We didnt see Wakanda post T’chaka’s death. We only saw Wakanda 2 years after his death in Civil War.

[@juanvasquez6535]

you lost me when the white guy shows he is completely unfamiliar with the basic concept of the film. The black guy should just do a review by himself.

[@damonsghost9235]

Now pat and woolie are no longer for comic book culture. Confirmed.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

They never where

[@damonsghost9235]

@@Agent_Cobalt Except when to push Liberal politics. "When's Mahvel? It's NOOW!!" Remember that? Woolie rockin' shirts every week.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

@@damonsghost9235 Because of a fighting game Cut them some slack. They live in the Canadian bubble. I don’t need them to have a nuanced take on politics. That’s not why I enjoy them

[@damonsghost9235]

@@Agent_Cobalt You have to be into a thing (marvel) to get tired of a thing. Otherwise you just don't care about thing. I listened to them and watched since before woolie made the scene. They are getting political in their old age. Being fatigued implies they were once engaged.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

@@damonsghost9235 They aren’t more political now than they where during the best of the MCU. Not more than during stuff like infinity war. I think they enjoyed the good character writing more than the brand itself. I think your take is ironic because it plays into the same mindset of the people behind marvel. That all they think anyone cares about is super heros and checkbox quotas. That was not what made the MCU successful. The only character with meaningful character growth in phase 4 is Peter Parker and he’s not in a position to replace tony stark in the dynamic of the avengers. You need someone like that.

[@Samael1113]

I'm going to guess Riri or Asian Hulk is what rustled "those" people's jimmies. Can't imagine it's Kamala or Miles since it wouldn't make sense, and they're more generally accepted now, having been given better introductions and having a stronger fan base.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

So I think riri is a shitty character, and cho hulk is just boring But the previous versions of those characters don’t matter. MCU could get me to like them. But it’s obvious here that riri was shoehorned into the movie just to set up her series. She didn’t need to be there. After she hulk I don’t have faith that whoever is in charge of her is going to care about writing a good character

[@kurowasanabe]

Riri is an absolutely awful character though.

[@Samael1113]

@@Agent_Cobalt Haven't seen much MCU in a while, but I just knew it was going to be her from Pat's intonation. As for your breakdown, without having seen the movie, I know exactly what you are talking about. Both in terms of Disney, MCU-ing everything and rushing to get to the next phase of the character and in terms of being able, or even wanting, to like a character, but the execution is so poor it takes 2 decades to start happening. Miles was that for me (Though I could talk about Ghost Rider as well). Grew up with Parker, loved Parker, even when the Scarlet Spider Saga happened (which is a hell of a bts story), and then the heads decided they never liked him being married and wanting to reset his story, so they spend 20 years trying until they eventually did the "One more day" story line - which made no sense, and they refused to let the character age and grow in the process. Then they eventually introduced Miles and almost immediately killed off Parker in the process and basically retry telling the Scarlet Spider Saga differently and more definitively. They didn't even do the smart thing like a Niteowl and Niteowl II or Batman Beyond kind of thing. Just massive disrespect to the previous like 70 years of Spider-man to boil it down to "This is new Spider-man, old Spider-man is dead". They didn't even try to do that with Spider-man 2099 Miguel O'Hara. Anyway, because of this Miles didn't really shine as a character that resonated with old and casual fans, giving misanthropes and racists a lot of reason to bitch, until they started doing the Spider-Verse stuff and gave Miles the chance to actually connect with Parker's character and Spider-Man's Legacy. Through alt versions of the characters, it conveyed not only understanding of what was lost, but also how fun the two of them together can be and could have been - which let everyone connect with both of the characters, their relationship, and the true gravitas Miles could / should feel at Parker's sacrifices and light. An understanding was given to new fans of who Parker was and what he was about and knowing why older fans loved the character, while giving old fans the chance to see how good a new Spider-Man can be and that Parker can finally take a day off and let the new generation do what needs to be done. A much more proper respect and passing of the torch, if a decade later than it should have been. I will just say Riri has a lot of potential, from what little I know of her. It makes me want to like her. Jedi Holocrons of Stark, created by Stark, that only portray the heroic side of Stark sets up a powerful 3-part story ark about meeting your heroes and how complicated life can be. Whether or not that's the direction they go, and the execution of the story is good..../shrug? I can't imagine the comics did a good job of it though, since she's still a moderately divisive character, which Kamala Khan, Amadeus Cho, Miles Morales and even Robbie Reyes have moved beyond with some form of success.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

@@Samael1113 So I don’t disagree with what you’ve said but I think it glosses over the reason why people like Miles but hate riri. It’s a matter of character premise and the general attitude. The way I see people describe it is that miles wants to be as good as peter parker. Riri wants to (or already knows) she’s better than tony stark. So while you might hate the way in which miles was introduced you can’t blame him as a character. One of the iconic aweful scenes of riri Williams backstory was her angry that her teacher didn’t want to admit that she was an oppressed minority and prolonged panel where she stares at the teacher like a psycho. And the writers don’t see that is an unlikeable character. They clap and say “you tell em”, because they have they’re heads firmly up there own asses. It’s the same reason people dislike captain marvel. The general arrogance and lack of flaws being acknowledged by the story

[@Samael1113]

@@Agent_Cobalt They put Riri on the Spectrum right? So, that could also kind of be an issue with writing, especially if the readers, writers and editors and others in charge don't understand Autism. There'a also the issue of not having a good and/or long history to keep the character elevated. Imagine if Batman were released today, as he was in the 30s. Using guns and killing like a Diet Frank Castle. Most people now forget about those hiccups in his history after TAS established the best, purest form of his, now, 90 year history. So like, yeah, while I think a lot of people may be reacting harsher to issues that have less to do with the actual character, I get what you're trying to convey and that Ironheart hits different with current context and RL social stresses (and bad writing / direction). But I don't have much personal context on Riri beyond an old CBG or Comics Explained video or two. I might feel very different if I got more personally invested in how they handled the Ironman Legacy.

[@themachoechidnaugandarandy7583]

The most racist movie I ever seen, so racist it was funny. Make wakanda great again! Baybey!

[@TheShockVox]

You’re weird.

[@ciriknockoff5738]

Did your feelings get hurt when the lady called the white man a colonizer? :(

[@KrytenKoro]

@@ciriknockoff5738 judging by his comment history, yeah, he hates whenever someone gets in the way of him throwing around the n word.

[@KrytenKoro]

Fucking weird that he has so many upvotes, starting to think the channel has a bounding into comics type contingent growing around it.

[@themachoechidnaugandarandy7583]

@@ciriknockoff5738 I'm not white but I guess anyone who doesn't think they way you do is a white person

[@fred15228]

This is the Joker movie for black people

[@hcaelBBleach]

Woolies likes the Black movie because theres Black people in it... lolllll

[@Large_Pepsi]

fr

[@damonsghost9235]

Not necessarily. He is not well versed in those certified "hood classics".

[@waitselljones8068]

WTF is with this random racism? And from a so called "fan". Woolie likes the movie because it's a good movie and gave legitimate criticisms of the direction and tropes that it has.

[@damonsghost9235]

@@waitselljones8068 Im glad somebody else can see this. I began to understand the audience during the masseffect playthrough.

[@ichimaru96]

@@damonsghost9235 what happened during the mass effect playthrough, I'm super behind on everything non podcast related if I'm honest

[@lioneljonson8716]

Film sucks imo

[@themachoechidnaugandarandy7583]

Yo is pat dying? The hell is wrong with his skin

[@damonsghost9235]

The test saying that females would only have real agency if the motivations of the characters is not a man. Fair enough. Never heard of it before 2021.

[@Bessux]

Surprised they didn't title it "9/11 for women".